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Why do debate in religion never ends?

  1. Mark Johann profile image60
    Mark Johannposted 3 years ago

    Sight your pleasant views about it.

    1. Austinstar profile image78
      Austinstarposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Do you mean "Cite" your views?
      Anyway, Mark, people just love to argue and express their own views like they know something no one else knows (even if the argument has been used over and over and over again).
      Clearly, we need a society of deaf mutes in order to eliminate debates. But even then, I suppose people would just type away!

      1. Mark Johann profile image60
        Mark Johannposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, I mean cite. Sorry, I must have been in a hurry that that question popped out of my mind. smile

        I find it very offending to hurt ones feelings by the way they share their views, don't you?

        1. Austinstar profile image78
          Austinstarposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Not at all. Not to be narcissistic, but everyone is responsible for their own 'hurt feelings'. I could call you every bad name in the book, but it is up to you to believe any of it is true.
          You can do the same to me. I learned long ago that I am what I am and only I have the power to control how I feel about things.
          People have called me a Satanist, among other things. I know this is not true, therefore it doesn't hurt my feelings.

        2. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I think it's both possible and necessary to try to present your views in the best way possible, but some people will insist on taking whatever you say (if they disagree with it) as an emotional attack upon them.

          And frankly some people seem incapable of saying things without using emotionally charged language. This is true for both sides. One man constantly called me a liar and I had to learn from someone else (because he never felt the need to explain) that what he meant was he considered all religion to be a lie, therefor anyone espousing it, no matter how sincere, honest or nice they might be, is a liar. Didn't do one thing to edge the debate toward an actual conclusion.

          And sometimes (and I've been guilty) it's just fun to tweek people.

          But to answer your original question, although I'm not sure of the real root cause, there will just always be people who are unable to understand why anyone would be religious, and there will just always be some people who are unable to understand why anyone wouldn't be. Some will cross sides, but on the whole, never the twain shall meet.

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        christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting. Do you include yourself among these people who "just love to argue and express their own views like they know something no one else knows"? I know i personally like to debate to learn. Sometimes I learn that i dont know what Im talking about. Other times I'm more convinced than ever I'm right.

    2. bBerean profile image61
      bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      IMHO, our first division is between those who are aware that there is a spiritual component and aspect to our existence and those who, either by ignorance or denial, do not recognize it.  With one side missing arguably the most important part of the big picture, this can not be reconciled.  Those aware of, and involved in spirituality will always appear foolish and gullible to those who aren't.   

      Among those who are aware of spirituality there are two divisions, but one manifests itself in countless deviations.  On one side is God, on the other, the "god of this world" who cares not which variation we choose to believe, or even assemble for ourselves, as long as it keeps folks from understanding and accepting the true gospel. 

      Increasing acceptance and proliferation of the false teachings, which man's "itching ears" want to hear, including countless "Christian" groups, will lead to increasing intolerance of the truth, resulting in a unity of sorts with those unspiritual folks, against true biblical Christianity.

      No, the debate will not end, but rather will intensify, until Christ's return.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Here is your answer Mark, one group telling another that they are ignorant or in denial, but that doesn't end there, they then look toward any other group that isn't exactly like them and tell them they are ignorant or in denial.

        As the other Mark says, this is why religion causes so many fights.

        1. bBerean profile image61
          bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I said that was my opinion.  Shall I find examples of you saying I, or others are ignorant, uneducated, or in denial, deluded, etc or do you agree those examples would not be hard to find?  You present this as though you are above that fray.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Read it again, did I state or imply which group was above the fray? You know my statement is correct that's why you change the subject from (why do debates in religion never end) to (you do it to). As if stating that you said it's only your opinion that others are ignorant or in denial makes it somehow okay and non-confitational.

            1. bBerean profile image61
              bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, I very much feel your utilization of a third party perspective implies you are not party to the actions you describe, when you are in fact a very active participant.  I suspect most would read it that way as well.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Well then, those who would, would be ignorant and or in denial, as you can see I'm included. Which was your goal, no? To tell Atheists that they are ignorant or in denial, which starts the fight and then when the fight underway, claim to be an equal party. Like a bully in the school yard calling others names until they do the same back so you can point your finger.

                Is that how your religion starts so many fights?

                1. bBerean profile image61
                  bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Let me respond to the mantra first...be it "my religion" or yours, (yes I know you don't recognize yourself as being part of a religion), two sides are needed for the "fight". 

                  Is it my goal to start one?  No, I was simply answering the OP honestly with my opinion.  I do chime in, but not frequently.  Perhaps I will more, but that is all a matter of available time.  I enjoy HP, but necessity mandates it remain low on my priority list.  When I respond it is not to "fight" with atheists, as that is useless.  It is to convey information, counter misinformation or simply interject another perspective for others who may be reading.  I have no illusion or aspiration regarding changing the views of you or the other vocal atheists who frequent the forums.  I do often enjoy the discussions, however.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    And you think going around voicing your honest opinion that others are ignorant and or in denial is the right thing to do because you are just being honest. Do you walk up to strangers and tell them they should get their teeth fixed or perhaps loose some weight? When they get upset do you simply claim you were just being honest and trying to help?

        2. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          As opposed to the group that tells another that they are either crazy or stupid?

          Unless that group gets really creative and tells the other that they're stupid for not realizing they're crazy.

          Yeah, that never contributes to the problem at all...

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yeah, but how many Atheists have you meet that told you you were stupid or crazy before you told them you were a Christian attempting to convince them that Jesus is still alive. Before you voiced your opinion? You see, most Atheist don't give a crap what you or anyone else thinks, we don't knock on doors evangelizing and I have yet seen any Atheist say they are here to evangelize. I've never heard of a group of Atheists beating on a Christian because he's a Christian. Sure you may get called stupid or crazy, but that's usually after someone states that Atheists are either in denial or ignorant and destined to burn in hell because we don't think just as a believer does.

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That's clever but not quite accurate.

              First of all, keep in mind that here in the forums most (I would say all) of us, whichever side we're on, are pretty passionate about what we believe and most of us have given it serious thought (and I apply that to both sides. There are some on either side who haven't really thought it out and are given to just blurting whatever comes to mind but most of us, whatever the opposition might say, have given it some serious thought.) So here in the forums, all I have to do is say I'm a Christian and there are certain people who are ready, based on that three-word sentence, to jump on my case (metaphorically) as if I had shown up on their yard with a burning cross and the Spanish Inquisition.

              No that's not all atheists, or even the majority, but those who do, do. And yes, there are those Christians (and Muslims too, on the few occasions when I've wandered into one of their forums.) As I take pains to say (and am often ignored on) the type of behavior is common on both sides in about equal numbers.

              In the real world, I think it's fair to say that most atheists don't care what I think as long as I don't 'push' my religion on them, but just as in the forums, what constitutes 'push' can be as drastic as shouting in their faces to as mild as simply saying I'm a Christian.

              This is why they used to say that polite people never discuss religion (or politics.)

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No, you have given your religion very little if any "thought" at all, it is those that reject your religion who are the ones who actually think about it, that's why they reject it as myth and superstition, just like all the other religions.



                If this were several centuries in the past, you most certainly would have done that.

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you. After the tenseness of our recent interactions, I really needed a good laugh!

                  But if it will make you feel any better, "Thanks for proving my point for me!"

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            What positive contribution, if any, does believing in crazy or stupid things offer? None.

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I agree yet you persist.

              I'm going to tell you what I told getitrite, although I'm sure you've read it. The only 'fact' that I have denied, for which you call me a liar, is that religion is a fairy tale and those who hold to it are either lazy or liars. That's not a fact, it's a judgement and an arrogant one at that. The people who tend to believe that it's been proven to be a fairy tale, in my experience, didn't need someone to 'prove' it to them, they already were leaning that way. And although the underlying motive is different, the behavior itself is no different than those Christians who believe whatever their pastor tells them without questioning or thinking about it for themselves (and no, that does not even come close to encompassing ALL Christians.)

              If there's been some proven science that I've denied, present it. I don't think so. Questioned sometimes yes, but not denied. And history has shown I'm not above admitting when I'm wrong.

              So if your definition of 'reasonable' is that I agree with you, that's not a good definition. Reasonable people can believe very different things for any number of reasons. The need to tell them that because they believe something that you can't understand or don't agree with then they are crazy or stupid or liars makes you not one bit better than you say they are.

              And if you're going to try aphorisms like "calling a spade a spade" then you should be prepared to look into the mirror and view your own spade-ness.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                LOL. You know nothing of science and you have denied or rejected all kinds of scientific theories and facts. Presenting anything to you is a complete waste of time.



                No, you will not admit anything.



                Sorry, but there is nothing reasonable about your hate cult.



                I see reality when I look around, you see fairy tales. That is the truth. If you can produce a shred of evidence for your beliefs, we would take you seriously, but you can't produce anything but fabrications, and you know it.

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Put a lot of thought into that, did you?

                  Feel better now?

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Notice how you're unable to produce anything in regards to your irrational beliefs? Nada. Zip.

    3. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Because not everybody in the world thinks exactly the same way, and that pisses a certain kind of person off.

      1. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Pithy, but true.

    4. Titen-Sxull profile image94
      Titen-Sxullposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Religions tend to have doctrines regarding some of the BIG questions about life, the Universe and everything. Most world religions claim to offer insights, answers or truths that put to rest some of mankind's oldest and deepest questions.

      Why are we here?

      Are we alone?

      What happens when or after we die?

      Why is there something rather than nothing?

      Etc...

      The debate can't end because many people and organizations clam to have the answer to these questions and the answers they give are disagreed with.

      Some people disagree for logical or philosophical reasons, others for emotional or personal reasons. Some disagree for financial reasons (ie those who make a living peddling religion and superstition for example, your psychics, your faith healers, your cult leaders, etc).

      Also human beings continuously make more of ourselves, we reproduce an awful awful lot and this leads to generation after generation being taught a variety of different worldviews, religious beliefs and philosophical leanings. People can either stick with what they are taught or expand their minds with further research, conversions to other belief systems or full deconversions are both possible.

      Almost everyone wants to be right or closer to the truth. The danger, I have found, is believing you've already found the truth. The most comfortable place intellectually is one of skepticism and doubt, though it can be uneasy for those who came from a place of certainty that claimed to have once possessed the truth.

      Socrates is credited with a phrase that goes something like this: "The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

      The only absolute truth may be that there is no absolute truth and that any truth should only be accepted tentatively after it has been thoroughly investigated and has withstood scrutiny.

      So basically the debate doesn't end because humanity still has questions unanswered and as long as there are those who claim to know the answers there will be those that dispute them.

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    MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago

    People often feel very passionate about their beliefs/views and feel they have the right (and rightly so) to express themselves openly. This is a freedom for all to enjoy. From every walk of life, religion, and culture, no matter who or what you are or believe, you should have the right to express your opinions. I doubt it will ever end unless everyone believes the exact same way and I certainly do not think that will ever happen!

    1. 0
      christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      good point. what a boring world in my opinion if everyone did.

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        MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you. Indeed it would be, christiananrkist smile

  3. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Is it extortion for me to stand in the gate saying ..."you must tell me that you are a part of my family....   or you can not come in to the (family) reunion?

    1. Zelkiiro profile image84
      Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No. It's extortion to say, "You must tell me you love me, or else I'm going to strap meat to your face and release the hounds."

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Jody said that Henry said that Mary Said that Bill said  "such and such"; and for this reason I don't like Bill.
           That don't make sense to me.

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      MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, Jerami. But putting it that way is not exactly the threats/promises (which have you) that if you don't give God what he demands then you(r) (soul) will be damned. Fear is a strong persuader. Whether we like how it sounds or not, isn't that the "truth" of it? I've been told this very thing. That if I did not submit to God and give myself to him that my soul would suffer damnation. I've heard this very thing proclaimed in church. By preachers. By Christians. Are they mistaken? Where they wrong in spreading that message to me and my children? Were we told incorrectly? When all of the 'how we like to spin it' is peeled away and the 'it is what it is' is acknowledged, how else is there to understand it?

      I wish it were as nice, gentle, and loving as you stated it, Jerami, but I was once led to "believe" otherwise.

  4. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    I apologize for the delay in answering your post.  I was called away before I could accurately        describe what I was thinking.  I still can’t.   
    I can say that I personally do not believe in Hell.   
    I believe that 300 years after Jesus died, The Roman Empire wanted to create a new religion           based upon “SOME” of those things that Jesus said.   
    In 380AD this new religion was proclaimed by the Emperor to be THE official religion of the state.        No other will be tolerated. 
    And then Guys like Martin Luther came along chastising this church for some of what he considered to be ungodly teachings and practices (corruption).  The church was divided. 
    SOME  of the false teachings were corrected.
    Protestant and Lutheran churches sprang up and flourished because they were seen as new and improved versions of the old corrupt system.   
    Let me ask you, Not saying I am, but  “IF” I were a Righteous man and spoke many wise things, and many people followed me long after I died, and a couple of hundred years pass before my following became corrupt,  teaching many false things in my name, …  Would I still be righteous?

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No Jerami, you'd be dead. Although I do like your thinking.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Rad ...  Does the search for "THE Answers" ever end?  I don't think that end is attainable.
        When I think I have found "THE" answer,  I always find another question.
        Some of  these questions are irrelevant and I get lost looking for those answers while other times I over look small details which raises important questions which reveal answers which brings us to to more important questions which brings closer to the answers we are looking for.

        In our search for truth If we must always remember that there are always at least two points of view on every issue.

        Sometimes I think wisdom and insanity walk hand in hand; sitting in the same chair like Kissin- cousins.
        According to the bible, King Solomon was the wisest man ever to live, and he walked this path searching for wisdom, and in his final analysis ....  "It Is All Vanity".  that we should all just eat drink and be merry.

        Whether we believe in life after death or not, I think we should not waste what little time we have here on earth judging our fellow man and arguing about who is the smarter. 

        I know that I just want to be happy while living in comfortable surroundings. And I have found that this is easier to do when everyone else in my environment are  happy and comfortable in theirs especially when I remember that I am just a small part of their environment. 

        When we attempt to leave a smile everywhere we go, pretty soon we will find smiles everywhere we go.
            Other than this,  I think Solomon was right "All is vanity".

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      MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No worries Jerami. You could still be a morally correct person given that situation. If all the great things were true about you and proven such, sure. But the concern often is that your accomplishments were written years after your death, so were they actually things that YOU did or were they at all fabricated or embellished upon? I'm not saying they are untrue. But we can't actually know. At least, I cannot. We can hope, sure. We can choose to believe what we read and/or are told to believe, sure. We can think that what we know is actual and factual but to be honest, it is still only what we think we know.

      No disrespect meant to you Jerami or toward your beliefs or anyone's beliefs for that matter. If it is your truth, or anyone else's truth, more power to you, rock on. I'm in no way trying to dispel anything and I hope that you do not see it in this way.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Your answer is correct on one level. However, my question was intended to stretch across several levels.

  5. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 3 years ago

    Some debate is pleasant and enlightening. It helps us to learn new things and to shed old, outdated ideas.

    Some debate is destructive and painful. These do nothing to empower us, but are merely ego attempting to tear everyone else down in order to push ego up.

    Debate of the first kind can prove valuable, because it stretches our minds and allows us to see new things we had never considered.

    The big problem is ego. When ego gets in the way, learning becomes impossible. Ego says, "I know everything on this subject already. You're wrong. I'm right." Their cup runneth over and there's no room for anything else in it.

    Without ego, learning is a joy. Even if we don't understand or agree, we can grow from the experience.

    Many biblical literalists already know everything. I say this facetiously. They have no humility; only arrogance. And they're too lazy to dig deeper. This makes it impossible to move beyond their early position on the road to Truth. They're too lazy to take the next 99,999 steps.

    When someone remains humble and hungry, they have the potential to learn all there is. Then debate remains a learning experience, only, and never an "ego fest."

  6. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Ha Rad Man  please excuse the impersonal way in which this is being formatted

    Rad Man posted
    It seems to me that there is a separation between what the bible actually says and how you interpret the bible and still get what you want. And I don't mean you in particular.
    ========
    ME        We have how many different denominations pointing fingers at the rest saying "YOU  Are Wrong" ??    What if they are all wrong in different aspects and right in maybe 80%?

    I have the same problem with everyone and their horse feeling like it is permissible to exercise their ability to  personally interpret every verse in the bible.  I guess you can say that the way we understand anything we read is our own personal interpretation.   
       But ....  what has been going on ever sense the church was officially established (326 AD) goes way beyond that.

       In my opinion, there only had to be very few improper misinterpretations in the beginning in order to construct the canon in such a way as Roman society would accept it in the first place.
    BUT ...  that being done requires a continued necessity (it would seem) for unorganized misinterpretations of segmented portions of scripture in an attempt to validate the original misinterpretations.   
       It seems to me that no one knows where we should begin if we wanted to unravel the mess that those first misinterpretations has caused.  No one wants to admit this might be the case.

    Many Christians say that Satan is the prince of this world.   IF So,  What was he doing when organized Christianity was being constructed by the Roman Empire in 326 AD?

          What IF ?   

    =====
    Rad man wrote
    Do you think it's just human nature to justify and alter ethics and morality to get what we want?
    = == =
    me  ......     It seems to be the case.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks Jerami. As always your input is greatly appreciated. Nothing for me to argue there.

 
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