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Why do Evangelical Christians say we all deserve hell?

  1. Disappearinghead profile image90
    Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago

    According to received Church wisdom, all of humanity deserves to be sent to hell? Why? What have we as individuals done that's so wrong that eternity of torture or annihilation is the reward?

    I'm sure the average Hubber here has never murdered a child, sold crack to street kids, committed genocide, or invaded a sovereign nation to steal their oil. I guess your daily routine might be: get up, wash and dress, feed the kids and the cat, commute to work, fulfil your contractual obligations, come home, cook dinner, put your feet up in front of the telly with a beer, go to bed. How does any of that deserve hell?

    Why does not believing in God deserve hell? We live in free countries don't we with freedom of conscience? Is God really so small minded and petty?

    Why were you a 'sinner' the moment you left your mother's womb? Did the amniotic fluid somehow keep you pure and holy? Think about it. You say God knit you together in the womb (he only makes perfect things right?), so how and at what point did someone or something inject you with sin or a sinful nature?

    Why should two apparent idiots like Adam and Eve screw your eternal fate up? What's their stupidity got to do with you? Why can't God see that you are not to blame for the sin or your parents?

    I'm speaking from the point of the Christian argument here and clearly it makes no sense. Many Christians have realised this so they seek to explain it away with arguments about free will, new definitions of hell, and the assumption that our characters are fixed at the point of death and cannot be changed at a resurrection.

    The point remains, my kids know the difference between right and wrong, yet occasionally they choose to do wrong, but I would never torment them for eternity, pour petrol over them and strike a match, banish them to an outer darkness, or annihilate them. I guess I must be more loving than God.

    1. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Nice hub, add a couple of pictures and a video, maybe a comments box and it could do well. smile

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, yes and yes. smile

    3. The0NatureBoy profile image67
      The0NatureBoyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You said it correct when you said  received {organized} church wisdom because it isn't the church's {the called out from the world's} wisdom.  The church's wisdom say civilized life on earth is hell and the lake of fire according to the Bible's metaphors' use of those terms.  The Bible tells us that in order to comprehend life one has to be drawn from the milk and weaned from the breast of the organized church's wisdom by truth seekers (Isaiah 28:9).  Therefore, it's because organized church is about eliminating one's independent study and controlling others minds by making people afraid or scared of hell and the lake of fire.

    4. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Why are you doing this DH?

      Nobody has anything to be concerned about.

      If Universal Salvation is correct, we all get home to God and if it's not, then we should lead lives anyway that would be approving to the god we place our trust in.

      BTW 'Evangelicals' are simply quoting what they know, and if they are wrong, no harm is done.

      Those who believe one way, on this point, will never affect the others if they are wrong.

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You think? Cosmically, you are correct. But, the harm done in this plane of existence is also important. If actions here didn't matter also, why even attempt to make contact and share? What purpose could the appearance of Christ have served, that wasn't already served?

        At this point, you are probably saying "That proves that there are consequences." But it doesn't. It only shows that we must look at the here and now also. People spend so much time declaring their love for God that they don't consider the ramifications of their actions, born of their conclusions of what the end of this life will bring. They are creating hell on earth for many who don't agree with their conclusions.

        So, teachings do matter. Those who lead down a path that does not lead to truth harm others now. This life may be a drop in the bucket of eternity, but we all exist in that drop. Every teaching that inflicts emotional, psychological or physical stress on another human being wrongs them. How can you say no harm is done?

      2. Disappearinghead profile image90
        Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        No harm is done when evangelicals transform our Father into a monster and because of their testimony many turn their back on the one who loves them?

        Tell this to those that were burned at the stake for standing against criminal doctrines.

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Not temporal harm..... eternal harm.

          And is it not you who  are 'turning our Father' into a monster?

          If hell exists, it would be because a Sovereign God created it to deal with a specific situation, hence our ONLY consideration would or should be to resist becoming an entity that needed the specific situation dealt with.

          If hell does not exist, whoever was guilty of getting it wrong by quoting the bible, would have to deal with the penalty for their error (which of course could not be going to hell) and may spend a period relearning Gods love, and apologising to those they mislead.

          But the bible does have one warning verse that substantiates that misleading folk could be dangerous....

          Matthew 18:6
          But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

          Something we should all seek to avoid.

          ...and also...

          Mark 14:21
          The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

          That refers to Judas of course, but the question is .... what could be worse than "he had never been born?"

          1. Disappearinghead profile image90
            Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            With regards to Judas I don't buy the line that is commonly pushed that he is in hell (whatever that is supposed to be). The point is Judas was part of the plan. No betrayal, no crucifiction. Paul stated to the Athenians that God makes some people for noble use and others for ignoble, such as Pharoah. Judas was deliberately selected by Jesus, knowing who he was, knowing what he would actually do. Is this a case of setting him up for a fall or entrapment?

            Now consider the life that Judas would have experienced after the betrayal. Despised and hated by the apostles, a used pawn of the Pharisees cast aside, an outcast, rejected by society, a social leper. Possibly persecuted, hunted down, or killed by Christ's followers and ostracised by the Jewish community. Who would employ him, give him food or shelter? I imagine he would have soon found himself in a state where he wished he'd never been born, and compounded by remorse and his own shame, he took his life. I imagine our Father showing him compassion.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That would be a long line up of evangelists. smile

      3. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry, but taking all things into consideration, the chance that salvation is correct is miniscule, the tiniest of blips on the cosmic map, and is nowhere near even remotely taking seriously.

    5. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The reason they mention hell is only because the Bible speaks of it, and the Bible is the source for most Christian doctrines. Of course the Bible isn't very clear on the subject of hell and really the Bible isn't very clear on anything else relating to the afterlife either, leading to so many different interpretations. If the Bible didn't mention it I wonder if Christians would have come up with it on their own.

      It really is an easy way to get the claws of guilt into the mind of a child, to tell them that they are already a sinner deserving of the worst punishment imaginable. They used to tell me that even sinful THOUGHTS could send you to hell, that's scary stuff when you're an imaginative kid, or a teenager swirling with hormones.

      From an adult perspective Hell is a laughable idea, no different than telling someone of a boogeyman in the closet who will do unspeakable things if they don't obey their parents. It works to scare the gullible and those already convinced but to the outside observer is just bizarre. Never mind that the word Hell comes from Hel, a Norse idea and that depictions and descriptions of hell are often blended with those of the Greek Underworld including very Pan-like devils.

      Among those who believe there is one constant question they ask atheists such as myself and that is "what if you're wrong?". But there are countless underworlds throughout mythology, countless gods that might be spurned, and while I might find them fascinating from a mythological perspective I'm not about to take the Christian Hell anymore seriously than that of the Greeks, or the Norse, or Adlivun the underworld of the Inuits, etc etc etc. If I might be wrong about Yahweh than you might be about Zeus, there is evidence for neither deity and without evidence one boogeyman is as good as the next.

      1. Ilona1 profile image78
        Ilona1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That actually brings out the main crux of the discussion which is not ideas of hell, but whether there is a God or not and if there is, who is this God? All the other stuff hinges on the way we answer that question for ourselves.

        Another  point your comment brings up is not what people say about a subject, but what the reality is. Not that coming to that at all dismisses the POV of people who believe in Christ vs. those who do not. Debates rarely affect a persons convictions either way, but it can clean up roughshod presumptions they make about each other.

      2. 0
        Lybrahposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Well,  you SHOULD be scared of the Lord.  You SHOULD be concerned about having sinful thoughts.  The bible is very specific: either you will go to Heaven with Christ or you won't.  Hell has been described by Jesus in the New Testament as being a lake of fire with worms.  Warning somebody of this fate is not something to be considered abusive; leaving someone alone to this fate is selfish.

        1. JMcFarland profile image92
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Do you spend a lot of time worrying about every other religions version of hell?   No?  Then why should we be afraid of yours?  Saying its real does not make it real

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Worms hate rain.



          Warning us of your childish beliefs is disrespectful, and really tiresome, especially when you're the trillionth one in a long line of evangelists to waltz in and warn us, yet again.

          1. 62
            abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            "childish beliefs"
            Oh, the 2.2 Billion Christians in the world are just SO childish. That pope? years of seminary training, giving up all forms of dating and chance of marriage for love of God, just childish.

            1. JMcFarland profile image92
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Logical fallacy; argument from popularity.

    6. 0
      Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      This is an obvious baited question not presented to encourage healthy debate, but to instigate an argument.

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I don't see D.H.s post that way.  The point I think he is making is that when one denomination points out false doctrine of another denomination; this is seen as acceptable by everyone except that particular denomination.
        But when a God fearing person points out those things about religion in general, it seems that no one gets it.

            We don't have to be AntiGod to see the false teachings presented by churches.
             We can believe in the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob (and Ishmael) and believe that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in the OT  and Not believe each and every doctrine of man that comes out of "The Church"

    7. Chris Neal profile image83
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "our characters are fixed at a point of death and cannot be changed at a resurrection."

      That's interesting. The point is actually not that your character is fixed but that your timeline is fixed and there is now no more time to change your future.

      Unless I missed something.

  2. rebekahELLE profile image91
    rebekahELLEposted 3 years ago

    And there you go.  I've never understood the hypocrisy of religion.  It makes no sense.

    1. insearchof truth profile image87
      insearchof truthposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You are right. In fact, I wrote an entire book on the subject. Out soon.

    2. gmwilliams profile image85
      gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Not only is religion hypocritical, it is totally antediluvian in its premise and devoid of inductive and deductive logic.   Religion is the opiate and salve for the miseducated, delusional, and uninformed, no more, no less.
      http://s4.hubimg.com/u/7899051_f248.jpg

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        Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I see from you profile you have several articles on the Zodiac Signs. Do you believe in this?

        1. gmwilliams profile image85
          gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Changing the subject and digressing from the subject matter, aren't you?  To stay on the subject, here    is what many Evangelical and/or fundamentalist Christians think of mankind.............
          http://s1.hubimg.com/u/7921716_f248.jpg

          You all are SINNERS...............ALL of YOU deserve to be in........HELL............Do I get AN AMEN on that.....
          http://s4.hubimg.com/u/7922211_f248.jpg
          AMEN, WE do deserve HELL............WE are just NOT WORTHY no more...........no more.........

          1. 0
            Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It was a simple yes or no question. Are you afraid to answer or are you buying time? ;-)

            1. 0
              Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I think buying time and brushing up on the debate skills.

              1. gmwilliams profile image85
                gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Now,you are still digressing in addition to exhibiting troll like behavior.   Let's discuss the subject of the thread, will you!   I am only going to discuss the subject at hand, not answer your question which is NOT related to the subject!!!!

                1. 0
                  Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I have neither trolled nor digressed. The question is completely valid and has to do with the subject at hand.

                  Do you believe in Astrology?

                  I think you only want to pick on others beliefs, but yours are off limits. Correct?

                2. 0
                  Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Let me ask you this. Are you an atheist? I gather from a previous post that you are.

          2. 0
            Mklow1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I have not changed the subject and I think this is a perfectly valid question considering your previous statement.
            "Religion is the opiate and salve for the miseducated, delusional, and uninformed, no more, no less."

            If you believe in Astrology, why would you criticize someone for being religious?

  3. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    I s'pose it doesn't matter what any man or woman says concerning hell, does it? It seems like the only opinion that matters concerning Hell would be God's.
    If you are interested in Hell, you could just look it up in God's word. If you don't believe in the Bible then I s'pose the conversation is moot and didn't have any reason to be initiated.

    I could show you what the Bible says about Hell.

    ********************************

    "...the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
    Mt 25:41b

    *********************************

    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
    Mt 31:25-46


    *********************************
    "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
    Jn 3:17

    **********************************
    25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose. 27 The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”

    29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house."
    Acts 16:25-32

    **********************************

    So anyway, that's what the Bible says. Hope that helped answer your question.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      And, I could show you a land of giants living up above the clouds. One of them actually owns a goose that lays golden eggs and harp that plays by itself.



      "Fee, fi, fo, fum,
      I smell the blood of an Englishman;
      Be he alive, or be he dead,
      I'll grind his bones to make my bread!"

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You could have just posted a nursery rhyme if you wanted to say something pointless that added nothing to the conversation... oh... you did.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, it showed just how pointless your post was... lol

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            oic

    2. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Beth, so what you are saying is that those good people who go to work to provide for their families and do not have the time or resources to run soup kitchens, hand out clothes or give up their child's bed to the homeless, or visit prisons, are all going to hell? When was the last time you invited a smelly tramp into your house? When was the last time you visited the pedophile and serial rapist in prison? Are you going to hell Beth?

      Notice how he starts with comparatively easy things like feeding the poor. Well we pay our taxes and the government feeds the poor in our own countries and abroad on our behalf via agencies better equipped than us. So that's covered, no hell for us. Then he raises the bar. Invite the local homeless into your house. Now we might consider that if the homeless person was 'deserving', perhaps they lost their job or their house burn down, but you would have second thoughts if he was a crack addict or a prostitute. So after we uncomfortably say 'no that's not for me' he raises the bar yet higher. Go to your local prison and and comfort the kiddie fiddler and the child killer. Do you wonder why Jesus set the bars of behaviours impossibly high? Perhaps he is making a point, filthy rags, righteous deeds and all that.

      Now we all know that Jesus only knew of the Hebrew Scriptures and we also know full well that there is no arch fiend satan opposing God leading hoards of rebellious angels in the Old Testament (find it if you can). That would be a dualistic religion and Jesus being a Jew followed a monotheistic religion. Thus as far as Jesus is concerned, 'Devil and his angels' is completely and unequivocally unbiblical. I guess he must have been making light hearted comment on the superstitions of his audience. Either that or the gospels written over 30 years later by authors who were not witnesses are not accurate reportage of what Jesus said.

      1. 62
        abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Oh my goodness. Not all Christians think everyone is Hell bound. There are *some* Christians who of course are deluded fools, just like in every other religion and in atheism.

    3. Marisa Wright profile image92
      Marisa Wrightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It doesn't answer the question at all, Beth.

      I think what the OP is saying is that some evangelical Christians believe that only those who have accepted Jesus as their saviour can go to Heaven.

      That means that a man living in the depths of the Amazon, who has led a completely blameless life and spent his days doing good and loving his fellow man, will go to Hell because no missionary ever reached him to tell him about Jesus.

      Some of us feel it would be a very cruel God who would take such an attitude.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        God is not capable of being cruel... and I believe that God will reveal Himself to every man, woman and child on earth however He deems necessary. What does it concern you what fate God decides for any man? I don't know any man's heart and I do not know the will of God concerning each man's eternity. I can only share what He says in His word and it is up to each man to deny or accept the Bible as truth. I don't claim to have perfect interpretation... that is also between you and God. No one needs to concern himself with what a conservative Christian thinks anymore than what an Atheist thinks... what he needs to concern himself with is his relationship to His creator. If he denies God's existence, so be it. If he loves God, so be it, but a decision will be made in every man's heart.

        For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You believe God will reveal himself to every man, but he simply doesn't. Billions of people do not believe in God because he has not revealed himself in a way that convinces them of his existence. I have never seen an angel, a miracle, anything supernatural. Simply put I cannot think of any example where God has unequivocally revealed himself to me. The onus is on God here. I do believe however via my own philosophical arguments, but not everyone would agree with me.

          But you are right to quote 2 Cor 5:10 which clearly states that any judgement is based upon personal actions and NOT personal beliefs. Hence the central theme of evangelical Christians is in error.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          God is a monster, a despot, an egomaniac, according to his acts in the Bible.



          Yes, and unicorns and leprechauns will reveal themselves, too.



          We already know what the Bible says, we don't need to hear your version, thanks.



          We use our brains to make decisions because the heart only pumps blood.

        3. Marisa Wright profile image92
          Marisa Wrightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That doesn't sound like the caring attitude I normally see from you, Beth.   What happens to a good, honourable man who deserves to go to Heaven isn't my problem, I admit:  but if I'm judging the validity of a particular church or sect, and I see it condemning that man to Hell in spite of his integrity, then I'm compelled to judge that church accordingly.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Im sorry Marissa, I didn't mean it to sound like we shouldn't care about our fellow man... I meant... it is not a matter for man to decide. We have no say in the outcome. We offer our knowledge based on our learning and experience and offer ourselves for God's use, but besides that, it is between each man and His creator. A Christian can save no one, only God can save.

            1. Marisa Wright profile image92
              Marisa Wrightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              So does that mean your particular Church doesn't take that view?

              I have never been a fan of Evangelical churches because twice in my life, I've been approached by evangelists trying to convert me. In both cases, I asked them what would happen to my theoretical man, and in both cases I was told he would, unfortunately, go to Hell.  Too bad, they said, it's just a fact of life.

              Since I couldn't conceive of a God who would be so utterly heartless, I concluded both those evangelists had a deeply flawed interpretation of Christianity.   Maybe they weren't a fair reflection of other evangelical faiths - I know there are many and they do have differing views - but it was definitely enough to make me avoid them in future.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Marissa, with all due respect, it doesn't matter what ANY church has to say about your theoretical man... If you believe that God is who He says He is then He is the beginning and end. He created all things and every man will bow their knee to Him one day. He is the definition of love. He showed a sinful and selfish world what sacrifice and forgiveness means. If I were you, I wouldn't ask another man that question, I would search the Bible, and read only His word for absolutes. If you want truth, seek it from the one Who put the desire in your heart to know the truth. <3

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes. Bowing knees sounds so like the definition of love. Do you actually read the bible? Sorry, of course you do. So how is it that god doing things that are obviously evil if done by anyone else is love when done by god?

                  It seems to me that Christians do not read the words on the page or interpret them differently than they would reading any other book. It is amazing that black becomes white and evil becomes good when god does it.

                  The Jews had a better idea of this god: "I create good and evil" This god is both as it created both. But no Christian seems to get it. There is no need for a devil and the Jews never had one. God's will was all that mattered.

                  The god of the bible is clearly an egotist, or would be if he was read in any other story as any other character. He demands glorification and worship. Any man or woman demanding that would be seen for what they are. these days. But in the time of the writing of the bible every king thought he was the son of a god and demanded worship and adoration.

                  That is what your god is fashioned on, so no wonder you are all so confused. You think god wanting worship is normal and good just like the primitives from 5000 years ago did,

                  It amazes me.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    So when the queen allows ppl to bow as they approach her throne, she should be considered evil? Is it not a sign of respect for someone who is higher than you? I assure you, God is higher than me. I will gladly bend my knee when I see Him.

      2. aguasilver profile image87
        aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Not so Marisa, that is covered in scripture.... if someone has never heard the good news of Christ, they would be judged on their life..... that means the good news is only bad news to those who have heard the good news and rejected the message.

        The concept is that Christ was killed, when He was an innocent man, guilty of nothing sinful in His life, and by that action defeated death, which/who has authority over all souls who sin and die without reconciliation to God.

        It's that last part that seems to cause the problems "die without reconciliation to God."  that is the condition which seems to cause disquiet and resentment.

        But if God IS God, I guess He makes the rules and what seems cruel to those who think this way (rejection of God) are welcome to resent and complain all they want.

        He said:

        Exodus 3:13-15
        Amplified Bible (AMP)
        13 And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come to the Israelites and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they say to me, What is His name? What shall I say to them?
        14 And God said to Moses, I Am Who I Am and What I Am, and I Will Be What I Will Be; and He said, You shall say this to the Israelites: I Am has sent me to you!
        15 God said also to Moses, This shall you say to the Israelites: The Lord, the God of your fathers, of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has sent me to you! This is My name forever, and by this name I am to be remembered to all generations.

        I guess being God it's His right to do as I AM wishes.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image90
          Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          If someone has heard the strings attached gospel then fails to believe it is the fault of the Christian for not presenting a sufficiently brilliant argument that overcomes the unbelievers logic and reasoning. It is just silly that someone's eternal fate can be dependant upon the credibility of another. If there is even the slightest chance that someone does not believe after hearing it is better for humanity that nobody preaches at all. At least then we will be judged upon our lives and so have a fighting chance.

          Romans 5:8-10
          Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
          8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
          9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
          10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

          So we can conclude that Christ died for all sinners and declared everyone righteous, noting that Paul does not draw a distinction between sinners and believers between verses 8 & 9. Furthermore v10 whilst still being sinners, we HAVE BEEN (past tense) reconciled. Thus all have been reconciled before death irrespective of whether they acknowledge this.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So if I tell you a restaurant doesn't cook it's chicken properly and you shouldn't eat it, and you do it anyway, claiming that I should have explained in detail the nature of botulism, then you would blame me for your choice? I'm sorry... that argument is ludicrous at best.

            "It is just silly that someone's eternal fate can be dependant upon the credibility of another."
            It cannot. Your fate is between you and God, I would suggest if you care about your fate, you would pick up your bible and get on your knees. If you have need of prayer or honest advice, please come to me, I would do my best to offer you any assistance. After knowing what the bible says, you might want to find a church of your choosing to help guide you.

            Your fighting chance is Jesus. He did the work for you because He adores you.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, your argument is ludicrous. If the restaurant doesn't cook their chicken properly, they would get closed down and your explanations would not be required.



              Your suggest is useless, childish and lacks any reason or rationale. It shows an incredible lack of reality and you appear to have placed yourself in a position of ultimate authority. Hilarious.

              1. 62
                abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Every single debate, this guy ^, a *clearly* Troubled Man, cannot supply sufficient evidence. "Your argument is childish!" "Your argument is stupid!"
                (to someone with a rational and reasonable argument) "Your argument is irrational and unreasonable!" "Haha!" "I take joy in insulting quality arguments!"

                1. JMcFarland profile image92
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No atheist is responsible for providing evidence to prove your claim.  You don't understand the concept ofof the burden of proof, and none of the arguments that I've seen from you are logical or convincing, and they're hardly original.

                  1. 62
                    abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    But should he not supply evidence to refute my claim?
                    Insults do not win arguments, at least not permanently

                2. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Quality argument doesn't generally include making fun of  people, singling them out for ridicule, sticking out your tongue, and stomping your feet and saying things like "so there." 

                  Childish argument includes those things, but not quality argument.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image92
                    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    He/she hasn't answered in five minutes.  According to their own standards from last night, that means I won, right?

            2. JMcFarland profile image92
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Your fighting chance is Jesus?  You could also say that your fighting chance is Mohammed or Zeus or any other multiple gods that have been proposed over the centuries.

              What you're saying is this:
              If you own a restaurant or a business and a mob boss walks in and demands that you pay him 100 dollars a week and he will protect you from other mob bosses or he will break your legs, you have two choices.  You can either pay him the money, or you can choose not to.  If you choose not to pay, he will come back and break your legs.  Is it your fault that your legs got broken?  Of course not.  It's the fault of the person who threatened and strong-armed you in the first place.  You're placing blame on the victim, not on the perpetrator who is ultimately responsible.

              1. aguasilver profile image87
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Or one could say understand it this way:

                You own a restaurant or a business and a mob boss walks in and demands that he pay you 100 dollars a week PLUS he will protect you from other mob bosses or he will let you not take the $100 a week, and still try to protect you from the bad guys, so you have two choices. 

                You can either accept the money, or you can choose not to. 

                If you choose not, he will not come back and break your legs, and will still try to protect you from the bad guys, but you empower them when you refuse His protection.

                Is it your fault that your legs got broken? 

                Of course not.  It's the fault of the person who threatened and strong-armed you in the first place, our common enemy, who seeks to devour those he may, we just choose whether we want to be those who can be devoured by the enemy, or protected and blessed by God.

                Now whose fault is it?

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The fault is yours. For trying to salvage such a silly defense.

                  1. aguasilver profile image87
                    aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You are entitled to your opinion, but what was stupid about my analogy?

                    God offers us His blessing and protection (as best our behaviour allows) from the ravages of the enemy, you may not like the analogy, but it is valid.

                    The enemy seeks to wreak havoc in our lives, the enemy is the aggressor, God offers protection, we accept or decline.

                    God allows us the free choice of what we choose to do, but we cannot reasonably hold Him responsible for the bad choices we make.

                2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  That would only happen in the Bizarro universe. lol

            3. Disappearinghead profile image90
              Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Beth, if you told me about uncooked chicken I am very inclined to believe you. Such a thing is real, material and testable.

              The central core of Christianity is to tell people to accept Jesus or they are going to hell. Thus the hearer is dependant upon the evangelist to reveal this 'truth'. If the evangelist fails to be convincing the unbeliever will not believe. As Christianity claims the unbeliever is cast into hell, then the fate of that unbeliever is inextricably linked to the credibility of the evangelist.

              With respect I would not come to you for prayer or advice because you peddle a strings attached condition based love gospel which is no gospel at all. OK, granted I used to myself, but then I began to question all that I blindly believed and found no evidence to support them. Do you have the courage to honestly seek the truth, or is your truth preconceived and based upon what your translators and pastors have told you the bible means?

              1. aguasilver profile image87
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                DH, the gospel we SHOULD be preaching, is with our lives, actions and if essential (and when consulted) words.

                Anybody preaching hell fire as a gospel message on it's own, devoid of love, care, edification and mutual accountability, is doing more harm than good.

                Yes scripture covers the hell aspect, but no preacher should preach it as a gospel message, nor should any unbeliever declare their faith because they feared hell.

                The ONLY reason to come to faith, belief and trust is because you encounter God through Christ and more pertinently, via the Holy Spirit, who alone has the ability to bring a soul to conviction of sin.

                We as mature believers should be prepared to inform people we minister to about what scripture tells us about hell, we can even express our opining on the validity or not of the subject, but our job is to lead people to the fullness of Christ, making ourselves redundant in the process as soon as possibe.

                Once someone is firmly connected with Christ, in-filled with the Holy Spirit, and based in sound ground, our task is completed unless they need further assistance.

                You can preach to a reprobate for as long as you want, but all one is doing is preparing the ground for the Holy Spirit to infill the soul, when that conviction is felt.

                1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                  Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  John. Absolutely the love of Christ must be the core of what is preached, but that does not happen when evangelists stand up to speak. The central thrust is you must accept Jesus into your heart to avoid hell. How many times have you been in Church where the speaker as admonished the congregation for not warning unbelievers of hell? Even Christians are uncomfortable about hell, so yes they largely avoid the subject.

              2. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Definition of PEDDLE
                intransitive verb
                1
                : to travel about with wares for sale; broadly : sell

                What will you pay me with for this salvation? I cannot offer it, it isn't mine to give. I peddle nothing. You simply start a subject in a forum and I respond with what I believe.

                As far as it being a condition based love... Romans 5:8 answers that clearly.

                "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

                You've done nothing to earn the gift Christ offers (lest any man should boast). And I can tell you myself it was while in my greatest sin that I felt the love and forgiveness of God with the most clarity. Do with that info what you will.

                1. Disappearinghead profile image90
                  Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  It is peddled by travelling evangelists who ask for love offerings.

                  Agreed the love of God is not conditional as Paul clearly states, I'm glad you accept this. So why do Christians say that God will send people to hell who do not accept Jesus into their hearts? That's a clear example of condition based love.

                  But look at verse 9 he goes on to say that after having died for us whilst sinners we have been made righteous. Did he stop between verses 8 and 9 to say that verse 8 applies to sinners, but verse 9 only applies to Christians? Verse 10 settles it that whilst we were actually still enemies that is before being Christians, we HAVE BEEN reconciled. Reconciliation does not happen after you become a Christian, you are reconciled before as an act of love and grace. Why do you not believe Paul?.

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Reconciliation with God, *is what makes you a Christian, my friend. If you are reconciled to Him, you belong to Him, you are His and nothing can separate you from Him.
                    If you don't want to give money to a traveling evangelist... don't. God didn't say you had to, did He? Don't come up with excuses that keep you from a relationship with God. If you have one, then you're on the right path. smile

                    Remember to take the Bible as a whole.
                    If I wrote you a letter, and in it, I said that I was falling in love with you... and that's all you read, you would be shocked. But if you read the prior paragraph which that said I'd had a dream last night about my fellow hubbers and I dreamt I was falling in love with DH the meaning would become clear.
                    If there are no preachers or teachers you trust atm, read the bible as a whole on your own. Ask God to reveal the true meaning to you. He has always been faithful to me. I'm sure you'll really be blessed by it. smile

                2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You are peddling Christianity like most other evangelical wannabees here. Your payment is the illusion of salvation, to get to heaven. In other words, evangelism has nothing to do with the anyone but the evangelists own selfish desires, wants and needs. And, they do not care who they disrespect in the process.



                  The info would show you're putting yourself in a position of authority, again.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          So, something as important as the "good news" in which ones eternal life hinges upon does not manage to get through to many people on the planet, unless of course, some self-appointed believer decides to spread that news, they receive a "get out of hell for free card" because they're judged on their lives.

          God, in his infinite wisdom, never even bothered to provide the "good news" for them, even though it was the most important thing in their lives.

          Hilarious. lol



          Or, more precisely, laugh our heads off at the ridiculous attempts believers make in trying to explain that nonsense.

        3. Slarty O'Brian profile image87
          Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Tell god thanks for nothing. It would have been better if we never heard the news. At least then those who can not believe due to their nature but live an honest life wouldn't need to suffer needlessly when they die.

          The fact of the matter is that hearing the "news" does not give anyone the tools to accept it or reject it. Atheists do not believe that god not exist, they lack belief that a god does exist due to lack of evidence.

          It is not a choice as such, nor a rejection of god. You are not rejecting something that could be just a rumor by waiting to see whether or not it is true, Just as we wait to see if one day someone finds a real bigfoot.

          For those of us who value logic and rational thought evidence is paramount in accepting a concept as true. So our lack of belief is not a choice we make, it is a position we must hold to be true to our selves.

          The religious make a leap of faith, and for us that leap is not rational and not one we can make honestly.

          To reject or accept god one must know a god exists and know it's attributes and what it really wants. That is the only way to make an informed choice about whether to accept it as your ruler, just as we should know a lot about the people we vote for before we make a choice as to who to follow if anyone.

          But the Christian god does not allow for that and demands worship without us knowing for a fact that it even exists. It's like voting for a person who is only rumored to exist, and who no one has ever seen or spoken to before.

          Atheism is therefore not a rejection of god or the good news, it is simply a lack of belief that the good news is real, rather than the imagination of the believers who have never seen their god, but have faith in a rumor.

          Evangelists should therefor stop wasting their breath and let people get on with trying to live a good life. According to them they are doing no one any favors by telling us stuff they can't prove. Fewer and fewer people are able to suspend their disbelief and embrace a speculative idea as fact.
          So if they want to save souls they should shut up and let their god sort it all out later if he exists.

          My guess, and my hope is, that if there were a god he'd be laughing his ass off at the Christians and saying to himself: What kind of a retard do you think I am?

  4. 0
    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    Hell satisfies Man's need for retribution. It can't be resolved with the gospels, in my opinion. I think those who believe in it don't think about it beyond themselves. There is humility in saying "I'm not good enough, on my own, to spend eternity with a loving God", and they stop the thought process at that point.

    In defense of the church, I think you have to view the caliber of education offered to those seeking positions in the ministry. The strongly evangelical branches don't have institutions of study you and I would classify as seminary. These aren't theologians we are dealing with. They are salesmen and saleswomen. They are taught the party line not to think for themselves.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image90
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I wholeheartedly agree. The religious need hell to satisfy their sense of injustice in the World. They see the rich and the criminals with their comfortable lifestyles and look at the hard working and poor who struggle. They want justice and revenge, a hope that these others will receive their comeuppance. So they invent hell to give them a hope that it will all work out in the end. They cannot conceive a loving Father who's forgiveness and love do not end at the point of death. So when they cry that universal salvation is not fair, they deny the Father's grace and become like the prodigal son's older brother.

      I've been around enough evangelical churches ad charismatic conventions to see that the educational standard of many of these leaders is very poor. These bible colleges attached to an individual church organisation do not exist to promote objective study, but to promote the party line and dissension is not tolerated. I've heard speakers mock those with theology degrees from established universities saying that they are filled with dry theology but do not know the movement of the Holy Spirit. It's ironic that the term 'theology' is derived from the Greek 'knowledge of God', that they prefer subjective feelings rather than knowledge and logic.

  5. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    I agreed with every comment made on the first two pages.  Is that possible?
    Then the posts, seems to me, became fragmented some how and seemed to go off topic.
    I think yes but Only if our over view allows.

    We tend to learn new things and then believe that we have achieved wisdom.
    We become foolish when we think that wisdom is something that has beeen achieved.
    The next level of wisdom; and there always is another level which challenges us; if we choose to accept the challenge , will always expose the foolishness of the previous level upon which we stand.

    As I said , the first two pages of posts were making total sense.

  6. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    Lets talk about that theoritical man. He is doing everything right. But because God did not give him faith that man is going to hell???   As is written, God gives faith to those that he chooses and doesn't to those that he chooses not to.  I can not believe that that man who functions in life at a higher standard than most Christians is going to hell cause God chooses not to give him faith.   
         This is the false doctrine that is spoken of in Rev. 13.

  7. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    So if someone said to you, "This theoretical man will go to hell."
    Then would you say "Then I cannot accept God."?
    Think about it. We have no say in another man's salvation.
    We can't send him to Heaven or Hell. No matter what we think, say or do, his destiny is in God's capable hands... so are we really going to give up eternal life with God b/c of a theoretical or real man? What would be the point? The man has the same destiny no matter what we do.

    Aside from that, we can't see his heart anyway. We may see a wonderful guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, while God knew he secretly hated other races, or who loved child porn... who knows? And the opposite, we may see a man who shot his wife and her lover in a jealous rage, but who broken and ashamed, fell on his knees before God in a jail cell and asked for forgiveness for his heinous crime. My point is, we can't judge another man's heart... we are not judge or jury. We are best to keep our minds on our own lives and keep opinions to ourselves since they are meaningless.

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      but we should question those things that a teacher is teaching.

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this
        1. Jerami profile image79
          Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          "They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some".

          Acording to my study bible Timothy was written around 67 AD,  I believe these words were true "At that time"   But think about it      Can these words  be true for ever?    I believe Christ has come exactly as he said that he would, "This generation shall not pass ..."    I believe this happened in 138 AD.                           His second coming does not mean the end of the world. Scriptures speak of a third time he comes to the earth when the rescurection happens. after the sixth trumpet is sounded, and then after 1000 years and a season passes before the seventh trumpet is sounded and the seventh vial is poured out.

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            What passage says he is coming to earth a 3rd time?

            1. Jerami profile image79
              Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I was writing an answer and something happened and the page went blank.
              There is not a single verse which states this fact.    But half a dozen situations in scripture that clearly points to this conclusion.  I'll get back in a few minutes with one example   and then another

                just happened again.   going to office word  This only gives me a couple of minutes to post.

            2. Jerami profile image79
              Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              There isn't a single verse, This in an analytical process.   When the sixth seal is opened there is a great multitude which is seen in heaven who comes out of the great tribulation.    The first fruits would be among these and his coming again as he referred to in his sermons were fulfilled.
              And when the seventh seal is opened there is silence in heaven for the span of half an hour before the seven trumpets are handed out,  clearly describing a chronological order being established.   THEN the trumpets are sounded in chronological order, but only six are sounded.  These transpire over a fairly long period of time.  AND THEN  the subject matter of Johns visions seem to change. They are now describing things that were happening before and during the time that the trumpets were being sounded.  After this catch up information is given we then see Jesus and the 144,000 (who follow Jesus every where he goes) standing on the mountain. (C14)
              This happens after the sixth trumpet is sounded.  This is the same event as described in C 20.
              The souls of those who had not worshiped the beast are seen arriving in heaven where they reign with Christ for 1000 years.  This is a completely different description of those souls that were seen arriving in heaven after the sixth seal is opened, because this happens at a different time it is a different event.
                 Remember that the seventh trumpet hasn’t been sounded yet. Satan is bound for 1000 years, though in Chapter 13 Satan gives his power to the beast that rises up out of the sea.
              After the 1000 years are completed, and the sixth BOWL is poured out Satan, the Beast and False prophet are all seen in the dried up riverbed.
              I believe that this is the time period that we are in today. After the sixth Bowl is poured out but before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded and Seventh Bowl is poured out.
              I believe the second coming happened in 138 AD  and the great resurrection happened around 900 AD and the 1000 years that Satan was bound is released around 1900 AD.
              False teachers teach that every thing that happens with the opening of seven seals and sounding of seven trumpets and the pouring out of seven Bowls All happen  within 1260  earth days.   There would be no opportunity between these judgments for anyone to repent as scripture suggest that there is.

              It's 12:30 and I'm going to bed ..   see Ya in the AM

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Ok.

                And if you believe Jesus is the son of God, and that he died and rose again to save sinners from hell then you're good to go, eh?

                1. Jerami profile image79
                  Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  And if you believe Jesus is the son of God, and that he died and rose again to save sinners from hell then you're good to go, eh?

                  I believe that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of in the OT. He came into the world to fulfill those prophesy, and to bring in a New Covenant.  I believe that he died to save ALL sinners, and not just a few.
                  I do believe that we will be rewarded and/or punished according to our behavior here in this life.               The absence of rewards is one form of punishment.

  8. Ilona1 profile image78
    Ilona1posted 3 years ago

    I can't believe I am actually taking the bait... after so many years of abstaining from forum debates on religion.
    oh well. here goes.
    First off, you can label me an Evangelical Christian, and that can categorize me for you.

    You bring up questions that many -maybe most- people struggle with at one time or another. The problem of pain, and the problem of justice/injustice. But then there are so many presuppositions thrown in. We tend to pick those up as we go along.

    To take things down to some basics: one thing most of us agree upon is the case that can be made for injustice. We all have a sense that things aren't fair, right, just in this world - or whatever word we use for that same conclusion.

    Also-
    We believe in DNA and genes, sure enough, and in predisposition to diseases, etc. but the idea of passing on a sin nature is suddenly not sensible? Why not? That would be right in line with things w
    e know about genetics... that there are mutations and damage and that can get passed on to the next generations. So the sin nature through the line of Adam and Eve isn't totally out of the realm of logic or possibility.

    And-
    God isn't "bad" for setting up a way to deal justly with evil, any more than law is "bad" for dealing with its interpretation of evil. And though we can disagree on the definition of what is evil, there is a case to be made for there being such a thing that exists and wrecks havoc in the human condition.

    I think what happens is that there is a distaste for someone else making a judgement on what is to be called bad ( or evil, or wrong, or injustice, etc) We want to reserve that to ourselves, and so God is somehow "bad", now that we don't like the way doing harm in the universe is defined. I do understand how this is difficult, and I'm not exempt from that feeling. so I think there is a lot of room for discussion and airing opinions about these things. I just don't think it helps to rail on about God, or Christians, or the punching bag du jour.

    At one point I did do the work of writing an apologetic on this topic and it is posted in the back pages of my religion/politics blog of old. You wouldn't be able to find it if you tried, I imagine, but just saying that there are well thought out answers that Christians have for their theology. And it really isn't of a mean old God not loving you and hoping he can zap you after beating you over the head sufficiently -LOL! Sorry, I'm not laughing at you, but how we get all twisted up in this thing!

    I happen to know that God is loving enough that your doubts and struggles with the hard questions of life is ok.  And I hope I didn't come off all condescending or anything, but I really did retire from most of these kinds of conversations. You struck an old reflex, in dumping everything into the trash... when there are actually some very good reasons and benefit from taking an honest look at Christian beliefs. ( I mean, from the positive side;)

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, we don't "believe" in DNA and genes, we have an understanding of them, which doesn't include old world, bronze age myths and superstitions, or childish curses.



      Yes, it's called religion and has been wreaking havoc on the human condition for centuries.



      It doesn't help to evangelize, either.



      Unfortunately, you have not offered any good reasons or benefits to Christian beliefs.

      1. 62
        abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Since when do evangelical Christians believe ALL non-Christians should go to hell?
        Of course SOME non-Christians should go to hell (Hitler, Bin Laden), but that does not mean we christians believe that ALL atheists and other religious people are evil.

        1. JMcFarland profile image92
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Try again.  Hitler was a lifelong catholic.

          And bin laden was every bit as convinced that his god was right and yours was wrong as you are of the reverse.

        2. SwordofManticorE profile image74
          SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          @abt79 who are you to say who should go to hell? (James 2:13 Read it)

        3. Zelkiiro profile image83
          Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, it's so cute when people forget that Hitler was a good little Catholic boy.

          Take a big fat guess who painted this:
          http://iamachild.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/mother-mary-and-the-holy-child.jpg
          Hint: It was Hitler.

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
            SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yet the apostle Paul claimed the title as the worst of all sinners.

  9. lone77star profile image90
    lone77starposted 3 years ago

    DH, here you go again with a profound question, but I'm uncertain if you really want an answer.

    Hell is a choice. I keep telling you that.

    Can you give up being separate from God? Can you give up ego? That's the real biggie. That's the tough one that's kept civilization struggling for millennia. We know of it by its more colloquial name, "selfishness." But selfishness comes in many forms and sizes. Some are so pervasive that most don't even recognize it for what it is.

    The comfortable life of the typical "Hubber" you describe is a life of selfishness -- not totally, but at least in part. Evil comes in all sizes and flavors, and the original evil was not something in mother's amniotic fluid or missing in the environment outside of the womb, but something each of us did millions of years ago -- turning from God and placing physical reality above Him. That was ego. That was the great "turning away" that led to perpetual darkness and a dependence upon physical eyes in order to see.

    Keep the discussion about these Homo sapiens bodies and you miss everything. God isn't interested in these Homo sapiens bodies.

    I created a short (1-min.) "trailer" for my upcoming book that touches on this. See if you can understand what it means.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDDUpGrevN4

    You, more loving than God? Hardly. God loves his children enough to bring Noah's Flood. And if you think killing millions of Homo sapiens bodies is bad, then you don't know who God's children are.

    Don't delude yourself. If you stay attached to the things of this world, you put yourself in hell. That's not God's doing.

    And everyone here has committed at least one of the horrible crimes you mentioned in the OP. Perhaps not this lifetime, but we are ancient beings despite the temporary vessels we love so much.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It's nonsense.

  10. insearchof truth profile image87
    insearchof truthposted 3 years ago

    I think the whole "you will go to hell" thing is just unloving therefore contrary to what the bible says God is. I have met God. He actually told me Jesus is a real man of history, not necessarily the one that is preached. The focus should be on his sacrifice to save us from hell. The point is God doesn't want us to go to hell. He wants all to be saved. Until you have him touch your life you won't know. No amount if convincing will do. I pray He touches you all. Amen.

  11. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    There are some people that think by expressing my views, that most
    of prophesy has already been fulfilled, is an attempt at shaking their faith in GOD.
    This is furthest from the truth.                                                                                                                   I am not even questioning the accuracy of the bible.                                                                                   I am questioning mans interpretations of it.
    I am questioning our faith in a man made institution.    Not our faith in God. !                                               I believe God is real!     God tells us in scripture to test him and to question those things                            which we are told concerning him.   
    Why are we considered to be Heretics when we do so?
    Are we supposed to have blind faith in an institution which was created by men?                                          If so, which one?           
    Or are we to have faith in God?                                                                         
    I believe that these man made institutions provide a common good.                                                        They introduce many people to the concepts of God that would otherwise
    not have meet God.                   
    We then build a personal relationship.
    I think that when we understand prophesy the way it was intended, our faith
    in God will be reinforced. Scripture tells us to NOT put our faith in any man,
    but God only!   SOoo why is it that when our church’s doctrines are questioned,
    we respond with more animosity than we do when an Atheists tell us that God doesn’t exist?

  12. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    we should question those things that a teacher is teaching.

    Beth37 wrote:
    Without a doubt.
    http://niv.scripturetext.com/m/2_timothy/2.htm
    "They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some".
    - = = - = -
    me
    Acording to my study bible Timothy was written around 67 AD,  I believe these words were true "At that time"   But think about it      Can these words  be true for ever?    I believe Christ has come exactly as he said that he would, "This generation shall not pass ..."    I believe this happened in 138 AD.                           His second coming does not mean the end of the world. Scriptures speak of a third time he comes to the earth when the rescurection happens. after the sixth trumpet is sounded, and then after 1000 years and a season passes before the seventh trumpet is sounded and the seventh vial is poured out.

    Beth37 wrote:
    What passage says he is coming to earth a 3rd time?
    = - = - = - =
    me
    There isn't a single verse, This in an analytical process.   When the sixth seal is opened there is a great multitude which is seen in heaven who comes out of the great tribulation.    The first fruits would be among these and his coming again as referred to in his sermons were fulfilled.

       And when the seventh seal is opened there is silence in heaven for the span of half an hour before the seven trumpets are handed out,  A period of time passes And then ...     
    This clearly describing a chronological order being established.   THEN the trumpets are sounded in chronological order, but only six are sounded.  These transpire over a fairly long period of time.  AND THEN  the subject matter of Johns visions seem to change.
      They are now describing things that were happening before and during the time that the trumpets were being sounded.  After this catch up information is given we then see Jesus and the 144,000 (who follow Jesus every where he goes) standing on the mountain. (C14)
    This happens after the sixth trumpet is sounded.  This is the same event as described in C 20.
    The souls of those who had not worshiped the beast are seen arriving in heaven where they reign with Christ for 1000 years.  This is a completely different description of those souls that were seen arriving in heaven after the sixth seal is opened, because this happens at a different time it is a different event.
       
      Remember that the seventh trumpet hasn’t been sounded yet. After the sixth trumpet is sounded, Satan is bound for 1000 years, Rwmwmber that in  Chapter 13 Satan gives his power to the beast that rises up out of the sea.
    After the 1000 years are completed, and the sixth BOWL is poured out Satan, the Beast and False prophet are all seen in the dried up river bed.

    I believe that this is the time period that we are in today. After the sixth Bowl is poured out but before the Seventh Trumpet is sounded and Seventh Bowl is poured out.
    I believe the second coming happened in 138 AD  and the great resurrection happened around 900 AD and the 1000 years that Satan was bound is finished and he is then released  around 1900 AD.
    False teachers teach that every thing that happens with the opening of seven seals and sounding of seven trumpets and the pouring out of seven Bowls All happen  within 1260  earth days.   There would be no opportunity between these judgments for anyone to repent as scripture suggest that there is.

    Beware of false teachers that that which is not written in scripture as it it was.

    I am wondering why no one challenges  this analitical thought process as described above.
    This is actually what is written in scriptures though it is not what is taught.

  13. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    There can be only one truth in a statement such as this. It is not ok for us each to have our own personal interpretation. I think that whenever we read two different verses that semmingly contradict each WE have either misinterpreted one of them or someone mistranslated (one or both). There are multitudes of instances such as this.  We think we already understand something, because we heard it from the pulpit so many times that when we are reading it, We think we already understand what it says before we start reading it, which leads us to misunderstand.
      I believe Jesus died for my sins BEFORE I was born and before I even considered commiting any of them.
      I'm with D.H. on this.

    1. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You are correct, there is only one truth. One of us has misinterpreted. I could point at you and you could point at me, but this is foolishness. It is up to us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling before our God. (Eph 4:14 "Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.") We mature as Christians as we go along... all of us. None of us are born into the Spirit with all wisdom, any more than we are born into the flesh that way.

      The bible warns us not to argue over doctrine, but tells us to be at peace with one another.

      "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." Titus 3:9

      "Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them." IITim 2:14

      "Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions." I Tim 6:4

      "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." Eph 4:3


      So if, when you read the Bible, you understand a scripture differently than I do, far be it from me to judge you. Instead, I will pray that God would bring us clarity. Above all, we are to love one another.

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Very true words. We should all be reminded of this from time to time. Neither of us can with all certainty proclame that "WE" understand truth more than another.  But we can say  ... "I'll show you mine if you will show me yours"    and compare.    Maybe I'll see something I haven't seen before.

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          indeed. smile

          1. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            My computer keeps messing up.  My post disappeared before I could post it.

               Truth is a strange bedfellow,  where our own here spirituality is concerned, We can find truth by digging for it.  We can dig a little further and find more truth . But when we find this truth another question is lying beside it. This makes it necessary to dig some more. and some more and some more.  Questions keep popping up with every answer.  If we complete this task and find the truth we are looking for, we find we have come full circle.     
                Had we just believed those things that we already knew in the beginning, we would have done different things with our life.  Not saying better things, just different.
                Life is about the journey. We have free will to take any path that we choose. But the destination is already decided.   As the adage goes, “All roads lead to Rome” 
                Life wouldn’t be worth living if there was only one path and we were all on it.   One path, no diversity, everyone believed the same things. Everyone wanted the same things, etc, etc.
            This is  ”part”  of the reason that I believe in universal salvation.

            1. 0
              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Well I agree with most everything you said.
              Life is a journey and every decade or so our understanding doubles what it was, it seems.
              I know I am making mistakes now that I will someday regret, and yet, I can't quite see clearly how to work around all the mistakes, so I go thru them and trust that God is God for a reason and I am human by His grace.
              The best part about maturing in Him, is simply knowing that He is in control. I take infinite comfort from that, and to know that He has my best in mind, makes it all worth while.

              1. Jerami profile image79
                Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Yes.     I have made comments similar to what you said
                About every five years I think to myself that I am I am glad that I'm not as stupid as I was five years ago      and then again, and again......
                I look back in life and see all those stupid things I did, the misery these mistakes caused, and know that these are what turned me into the person I am today. Sometimes this is a GOOD thing, "I Think??

                But had I died a decade ago when I was more stupid than I am today; I would still have exited this world through the same door as I will a decade from now.  At least I believe that to be true.

                1. 0
                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Humility is a beautiful thing...

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        It IS only immature children who would "fear and tremble" before their boogieman.

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Good morning ATM, and how are we doing today?

          1. 62
            abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            <<(1nsert.+<snarky_>{yet}_|--<intelligent>/r3sp0ns3 <in>\\ <`favor~of> [G0D]^)>>

            1. 62
              abt79posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Stupid computer, always glitching and showing complex sequences of coding.
              wink

  14. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    with doing laundry, cleaning house, the kiddie pool as seen instead of avitar, yard work and remodeling the house cuting dead trees, etc  I don't sit here in front of the computer more than a few minutes at a time so pardon the many  time lapses between posts.
       
    finally to the point. I think that we make everything seem more difficult than it really is, from living in this life and reaching life after.   I'm going to get to the end of this day no matter what I do, wether I find myself sleeping under a bridge or between the sheets that I washed today.

      Off again to WalMart.  later.

    1. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Bye smile

  15. SwordofManticorE profile image74
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    Here is why. If you combine a carnal view to scripture with fear, blind ego, self-righteous pride, a hidden desire for vengeance and spark the religious engine with a pharisaical spirit. You get a determined believer of hell. A spiritual terrorist. To suppose that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew in advance without mercy would be infinite losers by that existence, is to charge him a hypocrite with the utmost malignity. When some pastor talks about "truth" as if he's the bastion of it. That's one of the hallmarks of a cult leader.

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "To suppose that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew in advance ...."
      = - = - = -
      me    Pardon me for rephrasing
      To suppose that God would bring about physical existence for both his purpose and pleasure knowing, we as spiritual beings would then enter this physical existence for this short period of time, having free will to create heaven  OR  Hell on earth   will take all the credit for all of the good things while blaming God for all of the bad, Is a merciful God indeed!

  16. SpanStar profile image59
    SpanStarposted 3 years ago

    A while back someone said which I thought to be very profound:

    if we as an individual did absolutely everything we were supposed to do outlined in the Bible such as

    *Honoring mother and father
    *Keeping the Sabbath holy
    *Pray for those who spitefully use you
    *Love God with all your heart, mind, strength etc.

    And do so much more as stated in the Bible. Do you know what we would be doing? We Would Be Doing Only Those Things Required of Us!

 
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