If you're tired of the crap of this world, then you need to get off the wheel of death and birth. There will never be "peace" here. That's not what this world is for. It will just keep cycling and recycling, as long as there are humans who want to be here, away from God.
Are you suggesting people should just kill themselves?
No. You have to be reborn while still alive, or else you will just be reborn again into this world.
That would be counterproductive.
That makes no sense at all. You can't be born while you are alive, and you don't get another chance.
Reborn is a ridiculous notion, just like redeath.
Ridiculous to you maybe. Yet, it's real as can be. It's a METAPHOR. For being united with God, and self-realization.
It's a self-delusion. You are purposely deluding yourself so you don't have to think about life and death.
That's actually funny, as I think about life and death on a daily basis.
You are the one who is deluding yourself. But I'm not worried for you, you will eventually wake up.
Ha, you believe in an invisible, undetectable sky Daddy and you think I'm deluded. When you find evidence that you can share pass it my way. You can't supply evidence of life after death or God. You can't even prove prayer works. And I'm deluded?
How do you know he's undetectable have you searched for him?
I certainly have. I constantly ask believers if they have evidence that God isn't in there own mind, but they always come up short.
You got any?
Why would you ask someone else to provide you evidence? You must really want God or you wouldn't be looking so hard. You might try seeking him by yourself and maybe you will find him/her/it.
No, we won't. No one has ever found any gods. That's the point. So, there is no need to shove a gods word down our throats.
God was found, just not by you. I personally am alright with your choice, shows a certain amount of chutzpa!
Or, anyone else. It might be fun to pretend God was found, but that's just childs play.
You know, I used to think they believed what they preached, but I'm starting to think differently. They don't even pretend to ask god for information to make a believer out of me. Which of course means they know they can't do it.
Exactly, how many times have we asked believers to send their God our way so we can talk with Him, too? The excuses they put forth for not doing so are hilarious.
And of course we tell you repeatedly you have to find God for yourself. I've told you people how to find God. Have you tried it yet? Probably not.
What's hilarious is you and your atheist friends constantly in the religious threads, moreso than any of us who actually believe in God. And you repeat the same boring nonsense over and over again, ad nausem.
Why do you want to discuss religion so much, if you don't believe in anything? I don't believe in ffairies and unicorns, yet you don't find me discussing them ceaselessly. Strange.
Your methods for finding God proved to be worthless.
Yes, it's unfortunate believers refuse to learn anything, so it certainly would appear as if the facing up to reality is boring nonsense for them.
There's nothing strange about attempting to educate the ignorant or pointing out their ignorance. It's when the religion teaches them to remain ignorant and deny or reject reality, facts and evidence. This has had and continues to have very negative effects on societies and mankind in general.
Yes, you do believe in fairies and unicorns, but you call them God.
So you actually tried the method I suggested to find God? I find that really surprising. Possibly you didn't try hard enough, or long enough. it took me two years. I have more suggestions if you want them.
Are you unable to answer a direct question? Did you try or not?
You just don't get it. You did not find any gods, hence your ridiculous suggestions are mere diversionary tactics.
Perhaps you should stop making claims that are untrue. If you go around claiming God answers your prayers and you have a personal relationship with him, I'll call you on it just to show everyone you don't even believe you own nonsense.
When you claim to have a personal relationship with God and God answers your prayers you should be able to ask him for information about me to make me a believer as well. You should be able to ask for bigger more important things like world peace. Calling you on it.
How do you know I haven't asked for things like world peace?
And I already told you. I would never ask God for something trivial. I thought I explained that for you already.
Forgiveness, time to adjust to certain aspects of the transformative process, mercy, knowledge
I see you only pray for selfish reasons. And those are not trivial to the better of mankind?
You asked for what prayers I've had answered, not all the one's I've asked for.
Take world peace for example. I've asked in many ways, why can't we have it, WHY do you let children starve, be torchured, why do you let madmen run the world, and onto infinity. I don't get an answer. The only thing even close that I've gotten is that i will understand once i am in the position to understand these things.
But most certainly, there are prayers you claim were indeed answered. So, tell us just how non-trivial they were? Did you save a civilization from extinction, or something?
Like for example, "Dear God, where did I leave my car keys?"
What are you talking about?
Nothing to do with what I wrote.
I've noticed that you tend to get pretty emotional in these discussions when you are loosing the debate.
We're talking about your answered non-trivial prayers which you appear to not wish to reveal, perhaps because they are indeed trivial.
I already said what prayers of mine were answered. Perhaps you missed it.
Yes, If I recall, they began with the phrase, "I want"
This was my exact quote:
"Forgiveness, time to adjust to certain aspects of the transformative process, mercy, knowledge"
Besides, why wouldn't I ask for things I want? Should I ask for things I DON'T want? That wouldn't make much sense.
"transformative process" hehe
That isn't even a word.
Because, that is selfish and you are not dying of starvation.
Well, at least you got one thing right.
Transformative process is two words.
Either way, it is more important to me than whether my body is starving or not.
Yes, and it is far more important to make up words with wishy-washy definitions and then call it a process as an answered prayer.
Yes, waaaaaay more important than anything I could imagine.
Transformation. To change from one thing into another. How is that wish-washy?
I don't really expect you to be interested in trying for spiritual maturity. You are destined to be mired in the material world with material concerns until it is your time to go home to God. You can make it hard or easy, it's up to you.
Transformation is a word. The one you used was not a word.
That's because there's no such thing, there is only childish immaturity in the belief of it's existence.
That's just lame.
That was an honest statement. You do realize the only things you get are the things you're in control of, which indicates your doing it yourself.
Uh... because we don't have world peace? Every single Christian could drop to their knees this very day and pray for world peace and nothing will happen.
But, Jesus will find their car keys or open up a boulevard of gridlocked traffic just for them.
Yet, we never hear of anything but the trivial prayers being answered, while the real important ones get rejected.
Have you ever wondered that, maybe, God couldn't offer world peace because the whole world doesn't want it? Can't feed the starving because not enough care?
Sure, but why do people lie about God providing anything they want, health, wealth, vacations. If they didn't make these claims I'd keep my mouth shut. They say God answers their prayers, but they can't back it up.
How can they back up a claim like that? It is past tense. If you run across someone who says they can get anything they want, any time they want it; you'd be in a position to demand performance.
They all make those claims until you ask them to back it up.
Yeh, I guess you are right. The ones who say a prayer was answered usually claim all prayers are answered.
So, God only services the minority war mongers of our societies?
Aren't war mongers the only folks who wouldn't want world peace? Who else?
Um, that wasn't the point. I wouldn't think their prayers were being answered. I would assume that, without universal consensus; universal peace would be undue influence. What right do you, or I, have to affect worldwide outcomes by our personal desires? It would be great to think we could say 'Hey, how about world peace?" and something could snap its fingers and bring it about. But, without universal power, how would we ensure universal peace remained? Are you willing to give up your personal freedoms and allow an alien being to dictate policy?
World peace can only come about by world consensus.
Perhaps, we don't have a world consensus on curing cancer, because so many people still die of cancer, despite all the praying. Maybe, it's only one person who refuses to join the consensus.
I wasn't addressing all questions concerning the claims that prayers are answered. I was specifically wondering about the question concerning world peace. Maybe, if we didn't infuse our world with so many poisons we wouldn't have so much cancer to worry about. The people I've known who died from cancer I can pretty much point to a few possible causes.
Asking other people isn't searching for God.
I can tell you how to find him. Or her. Whichever you prefer.
I'm perfectly aware where you think he is and I'm perfectly aware where he is for you. But, being a thought in ones mind doesn't make him real. No more real than Greek mythology. You see we know from history that many people think there Gods were real.
So, you think existence is a choice by those who wanted to be away from God? I don't remember making that choice. Since you do remember, can you share why?
No, that's not what I think at all. I have no idea. I suspect that we are all just "parts" of God, headed on our way back together, eventually. Perhaps God was bored, lonely, who knows.
maya, illusion, until you wake up and head back, the material world is all that's real to us
Oh. Well, I agree in principle. I think we are all parts of the whole. But, this reality must serve a purpose. Weird, I don't know what brought it on, but I was thinking yesterday it would be odd to find out reality exists for no better reason than us to figure what we want the One of us to be. Trying to define Ourself.
Wouldn't that be a kick in the butt. Die, reunite with the Whole, just to find out we could benefit from a cosmic shrink.
There are many ways to get off the wheel off death and birth, but they are all basically the same process. You can even combine methods, whatever it takes for you, as they are all just metaphores for the process of "enlightenment". It is all the same. the pearl of great price, the philosopher's stone, being born again through Christ. It is all about uniting again with God.
When you want to say some spritual, there is always risk of misunderstanding.
Actually, inner peace is what we are looking for. Everybody want to find some peace in his life, fighting for conditions to have it.
When you come to know what is important to you, how to make yourself happy, it's easy to get your own peace. People around you will not understand. You have to be patient and to face it out. Then the rest of those who stay with you will be happy with it.
I agree. The whole idea is to find inner peace. It will eventually come for everyone.
I already have inner peace without God. How is that possible?
It's obvious you don't have any inner peace. You are verbally abusive to everyone who doesn't believe in "nothing" as you do. Your inner turmoil is obvious from your combative nature.
Um... not to point out the obvious, but I've seen you pretty combative yourself. Where do you think that turmoil comes from?
Yes. I'm very combative. I am fighting my inner demons constantly. Will I win? Who knows.
Why would you want the same thing for somebody else then?
Because I want everyone to reach God. It takes a lot of work. You have to face your fears and negative attributes and try to change them. Why wouldn't I want that for everyone?
It doesn't matter what I want anyway, we will all reach God in the end. It's our destiny.
Notice the underlined red bold phrase? If I could, I would like to present you with a twelve story facade with a grand red carpeted entrance way boasting a huge sign on it with the flashing brilliantly lighted words, "I want" to show the importance, significance and and focus on your post. Hopefully, it will answer your question, too.
First of all, if you're combative, don't complain about others being combative.
Secondly, if your combative nature is linked directly to your zeal to spread the word, then we all have a problem with that, here's why.
Lastly, and most importantly, the red bold phrase. Spreading the word is something that "YOU" want, which is an act of selfishness, especially because you have given no consideration whatsoever to what others want. That is very disrespectful to those whom you attempt to convert, which then becomes combative.
Was it the person you were trying to convert's fault and cause for the combat? No, it was your fault for having tried to convert them without any thought to their wants and needs and entirely on what "YOU" wanted.
And, the point to the entire explanation is that everyone doesn't "want" the same things as you.
Deal with it.
It really is simple, but I'll explain it to you anyway.
Don't want to hear it, don't involve yourself in the discussion.
No, we don't want to hear it, that is the point. The only way that can happen is if you stop. There is no other way.
I don't recall forcing you to read and respond(repeatedly) to this thread.
I suppose you can jump up and down and flail your arms around and cry about it, or you can act like a discerning adult, and ignore my posts altogether. It's not that hard.
I don't recall asking you to tell me what I want because it's something YOU want.
Discerning adults don't act like selfish children with everything they want.
So stay in this thread and argue about something you apparently don't care about in the first place.
To each his own.
Now, do you actually wish to discuss the subject matter of the post?
Yes there is.
You can start in a variety of ways. Yoga, contemplative prayer, meditation, spiritual alchemy, these are all ways to get you on the right path.
Nobody in history has every escaped death. It's best to look at it in the eye and hope it happens fast.
I am curious. Have you ever tried looking for God?
I was raise as a Christian, thought there was a God. Grow up and realized it made no sense, and have been looking for evidence ever since.
You got any?
There is no evedence of God. Not outside of you. You need to go inside yourself. Through meditation. Christians might call it contemplative prayer. It only took me about 2 weeks maybe before I started getting results. Another 2 years or so before I found God.
All you did was form a simulation of God in your mind. You worked at it and deluded yourself. If you really do have a connection with a real God ask him to supply evidence. Perhaps name the street Rad Man live on in 1980? It's not been done yet.
You ask him. I don't need any more evidence than I already have.
Why should I ask God for the answer to a question I already have. You and others claim God gives you stuff when you ask, but refuse to ask for evidence. You refuse to do this because you know you can't get information that you don't have.
We both know there can and never will be any "evidence" of God. Only he can provide that to you. You want it, ask him to provide it to you.
There is a reason god doesn't give evidence of Himself, and it has a lot to do with faith.
we have. We get no answer, then believers tell us that god doesn't hear the prayers and requests of atheists. It's all very convenient to claim that you gain knowledge from a divine being, but when asked to supply evidence of the claim, it's turned back on atheists who simply don't have the faith to be heard by a god at all.
I've NEVER claimed God doesn't hear the prayers of athiests.
He certainly does.
He hears. everything. He experiences everything. He is everything.
Then why can't he tell you what street I lived on in 1980? He can do anything? Prove it. Ask and you shall receive?
First of all, I would never ask God for something so trivial. If you ever met him, I think you would understand that. Imagine a ligting bolt coursing up your spine, I don't mess with that kind of power.
I thought you said it was extremely imported to bring other to Christ? I thought there was nothing more important? Here is your chance to save someone. When push comes to shove you guys don't even believe your own lies. You know you don't talk to God, if you did you'd ask him.
If you ask you shall receive.
I'm not going to bother talking to you anymore if you are going to trivialize the matter.
It's ultimately up to God anyway. If he want's you to come home, he'll take you there. It's your choice of whether to come willingly, or kicking and screaming. I suggest the former, it's probably the more pleasant road.
You won't even ask you God to help someone see the light? I thought that was number one on the list? Well if you find that trivial, why not ask for world peace or racial harmony or to feed the poor? What kind of things do you ask for that aren't trivial. Someone on another forum says God help her plan a vacation. Is that a reasonable request?
Ask and you shall receive.
What do you mean?
Are you suggesting that God will drag people to Heaven, even if they don't want to be with Him?
That's not Biblical, not what God says at all. If He were gonna save everyone no matter what, giving them no say in the matter, He might as well have never sent Jesus at all.
But then, you're not going by the Christian Bible, are you?
Hey Brenda, notice that every one of these people who claim to have a relationship with God and God answers their prayer can never back it up?
Strangest thing, God heals, God plans vacations, but none of them will ask their God for information about me. Why do you think that is?
I'm trying to remember.........
Are you the person who asked people, including me, to ask God what street you live on, or something like that?.............
If so, then I already answered your question before.
So it's not God priority to make believers out of non-believers?
That's an erroneous conclusion you've drawn, to hint that He doesn't want people to be saved.
If you're really interested in becoming a believer, you'll need some humility and an earnest willingness to know who God really is, instead of trying to dare people and play head games.
Of course I'm not going by the Christian Bible
You know that
I am not knocking your Bible, really, I just believe in something completely different than you do
Yeah, I've gathered that you believe differently.
I was just trying to make that clear to others.
Christians often get lumped into an all-inclusive group that simply "believes in God", who could (according to the lumper) be anything from God to the chair they're sitting on. lol. So I wanted to make it clear that God the Creator is the One that the Bible tells of.
But Brenda, we both know that many here who call themselves Christians hold entirely different beliefs from one another. If anything, you can't be lumped together, which makes it very odd indeed considering that's the entire point of Christianity, a unified group of people who all support one another in their quest for salvation.
You've asked that before. Don't you know where you lived?
I only ask this to people who claim to have conversations with God and claim God supplies information and this directly to them. If that's the case they can convert me by giving me information only I have. They never do, they usually, just as janesix just did tell me to ask for myself. This is clear evidence they know it can't be done which means they are a fraud. If God can make arrangements for a family vacation instead of feeding the hungry he certainly should be able to supple the name of a street.
So, parlor tricks would convince you of God's existence? What about card tricks?
You are expecting a universal consciousness to go out of its way to convince you it exists? Bit of an ego there, don't you think?
Have you ever tried thinking?
Notice how insulting both questions are to the intellect?
But, I do care if there are armies of evangelists trying to convert everyone to their beliefs because of their own selfish wants. That's the point. It is not wanted because it is selfish and disrespectful.
And your belief is that there is no God. Got that.
You do the same thing. You discuss your belief in no God with other people. That's great, you have that right. Just like I have the right to discuss mine.
See? That's why you were never an atheist, they don't operate on belief systems and get everything wrong.
Hilarious, you actually believe anyone would waste their time discussing the damage done by gods and religions if it weren't for evangelists spreading the word in the first place.
Let's get this straight, you're not happy with who you are, your trying to change your fears and negative attributes, you admit your combative and feel as though everyone is judging you?
And you want us all to be like that?
That's strange, I'm not fighting my inner demons as I have none. I'm at peace, you admit not to be and yet you think I'm verbally abusive because I disagree with you.
Here lies the problem, you think your inner demons are not you and so you fight them. Time to except yourself for who you are.
I prefer to try to be a better person. I will not accept myself as I am .
Sorry, you may want to get some help with that. I'm very serious.
You might want to look at yourself and your own faults before you judge other people.
I'm not judging anyone. You just said you can't accept yourself as you are, I suggesting talking to someone about that.
Can I remind you of that each and every time you judge someone?
The process of awakening, with the ultimate goal a union with God (or more precisely, a reunion), takes 7 steps. This is reflected in the 7 chakras along your spinal column, and the seven stages in alchemy. All religions and mythology reflect one or more, and sometimes all of the seven steps.
That’s what religion and mythology are all about. They are started from different individuals’ interpretations of their own process of awakening/transformation. The process is individualized, different for each person and thus the different interpretations. The basic steps are the same for everyone. Dissolution of the ego/personality, the recombination of the useful elements culminating in the union of the male and female principles, and finally a union with God. First the outer vessel is broken, the pieces put back together, and then the individual can be rebuilt for the final union.
Spiritual alchemy shows this process the best.
The first three stages are the destruction aspect. Conjunction is the beginning of reintegration which continues with the refining processes in fermentation and distillation, and coagulation is the final union with God, awakening, or enlightenment.
This is illustrated well in the story of Noah’s Ark, with the destruction of the lower aspects of the soul, and the rebuilding of the new and improved.
The destruction of the lower aspects takes three stages.
Calcination: ego destruction, first chakra (Muladhara Chakra deals with things such as survival) Noah’s flood, Ragnarok, Tribulation of revelation in the bible
Dissolution: in alchemy, the dissolving of the ashes in water. The element of the holy ghost, kundalini is brought into the equation. A quickening by the vital life force. The feminine side is opened up, bringing intuition. Equated to the 2nd chakra,or sexual power. Shakti is activated at this stage.
Separation: dividing the good from the bad, discarding the crap. Separating what remains. Involves the third chakra, which regulates the personal will. This is the stage where you must surrender your will to God’s, if you wish to keep the process going.
The middle stage
Conjunction: Bringing together the separated elements, especially the male and female aspects. Takes place in the heart chakra. The Crucifiction. The marriage of the sun and moon, ida and pingala, white queen and red king in alchemy. Sexual energy is now transmuted into spiritual energy through the heart chakra. This is the spiritual “oil” that is created to perform the final conjunction or union with god. This is baptism, Christening. This is the oil for the lamps(chakras)of the ten foolish and wise virgins.
Fermentation: The second, spiritual dark night of the soul in Christian mysticism. The death of the alchemical “child” that was created in conjunction (and destined to be resurrected during coagulation). Similar to the process of the fermentation of wine, which needs to putrefy and ferment before it can transform into something better. Amrita, ambrosia, spiritual knowledge. Corresponds to the throat chakra, the creation of the breath of life, pneuma, the num of the African Bushmen, nummo of the Dogons.
Distillation: last stage before the final union. Refining of the spiritual essence. Purification. Any leftover impurities of the personality and ego are destroyed. The vital force, kundalini, holy ghost, is raised finally to the upper 6th chakra in the brain.
the final stage
Coagulation: Final union with God, creation of the philosopher’s stone, marriage of the Bride and the Lamb, enlightenment, self-realization, the culmination of the Great Work, the pearl of great price. Sahasrara or 7th chakra in the top of the head. The thousand petaled Lotus. Buddhahood, Christ conciousness.
A Troubled Man posted How do you know I haven't asked for things like world peace?
Uh... because we don't have world peace? Every single Christian could drop to their knees this very day and pray for world peace and nothing will happen.
== -- ==
And every christian could drop to their knees and pray that there not be another death of a living thing and nothing will happen because in the end (?) this would not be a good thing for us.
Can you imagine what life on earth would eventually become if no one ever died but kept on having babies?
If no matter what we did to ourselves or each other we lived forever in this physical world?
Gotta be very careful what we wish for Cause we might not like it as musc as we thing if all of our wishes were granted.
Uh, that's not the subject matter, Jerami. We're not talking about that.
I don't know why you can't that that IS the point. If God were to answer ALL prayers? Why does he answer "Some" and not others.
I think God does answer some prayers simply to show himself to that person because that person needs just a little bit of conformation to streighten that faith that they do have, and no there will be no proof to show the world. You might ask, "Why them and not me?" I would guess, because he doesn't want to! The game would be over if everyone believed the same things. I guess you were chosen to play for the other side. and no! I personally do not think you are going to hell for being put on the other side. And no, Game isn't the appropriate word. But you get the idea.
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