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Universal salvation and Joy?

  1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    Can a belief of anything short of universal salvation, fill the soul with "joy and peace?"

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      How can you fill something that's never been shown to exist?

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Nonsense. Something doesn't have to be "shown to exist" to exist.

        Did protons exist before they were "shown to exist" ?

        Bacteria?

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          lol

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Not sure what's funny about that.

    2. kess profile image62
      kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      no it can't

      joy and peace lies with the perfect.

      and perfect is perfect nothing less.

    3. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yep,  something can.   The knowledge of true salvation that can be obtained by accepting Jesus as Savior.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image88
        Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        If someone does not accept Jesus into their hearts and as a reward the Father wilfully tortures them for eternity, then what do you really think of that  Brenda? Search your heart on this one. Would you pour gasoline over you child and set them on fire because they didn't thank you for forgiving them for stealing a bar of chocolate? If you think that is a heinous crime, why do you think a loving Father would do that to Wilderness or ATM? Do you love these two Hubbers more that God does?

        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Nobody loves anybody more than God does.
          God IS Love.
          And He doesn't want anyone to go to hell.
          People make choices.
          God's not gonna make the choice for them.   They make it themselves.

          1. Disappearinghead profile image88
            Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Brenda nobody would choose to go to this hell, and if God does not want to send them there, why do you think he goes against his own will? At the end of the day it would be his decision, nobody is forcing his hand.

            However will you try something for me? Put down your Hubpages and English bible for half an hour and just think about what you believe hell is. Sit quietly and simply think it over. Imagine that you are an unbeliever who is now facing God and he is telling you you are going to hell. Turn around and watch the other victims burning and screaming. Look back into God's eyes, can you still see love and compassion? Imagine that God has turned to your own mother and is asking her what she thinks, and to watch and listen as your own mother says "throw her in Lord, Brenda deserves hell.".

            If hell is difficult, imagine yourself in Medieval Europe, you have been found guilty by the Church for questioning its authority over your life and now you are being burnt at the stake. At this point it would be good to read some accounts of what happens to the human body as the flames rise higher. Watch the baying mob hurling abuses at you, feel the agony of the fat melting in your lower body, the skin drying, tearing and pealing away from your flesh, and oh the stench. At least whilst still conscious you take comfort that this will last for only half an hour.

            But wait, hell will be like this for eternity. After a million years, the experience will be exactly the same, and you know that in more million years, you will still be there. Your look through the flames and you see God watching you. He's been watching you for a million years, can you still see love and compassion in his eyes?

            But of course you are saved aren't you Brenda. So imagine you are standing next to God and your unbelieving little child, your own flesh and blood is standing before God, trembling in fear and terror. God asks your opinion. Do you say, "throw him/her in Lord", or do you plead for mercy? Can you condemn your own child to that fate, will you block out your own pain and motherly instincts for eternity? Or are you more compassionate and loving than God?

            The more you think Brenda, the less any of this actually makes sense. If you can put aside what has been drummed into you, the hell interpretations from the bible given to you from the pulpit, you should see that there is something very very wrong with this picture. Will you entertain the possibility that you have been taught things tat simply might not be true? Will you seek the truth for yourself?

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
              SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Wow, DH. After reading what you just wrote, I can only hope it opens up the eyes of the open minded. You should make a hub out of this my friend. It's good.

            2. profile image0
              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              First of all, I don't believe my Mother is aware of earthly life anymore.   I believe she's in the hand of the God she served,  and He would have no reason to ask her what she thinks about souls here on earth.   I believe she's in a place where there are no more tears, no worry, no hardship, no pain.   That's what the Lord promises us in the Bible! 

              I have no reason to believe that God would put anyone that He has already taken to be with Him, in such a situation of worrying about lost loved ones on earth.    So.....the scenario you've asked me to imagine isn't feasible because it's not Biblical, unless you want to think that the story of Lazarus in the Old Testament is literal and an ongoing reality (which I do not; that was a parable or perhaps a real story, but it was told only for a specific purpose at that time).

              Matter of fact, the Bible says there will be no such thing as marrying and etc. in heaven, and I take that to mean that we will not be aware of past earthly connections.    When I see my Father and my Mother in heaven, I believe we will recognize each other as brothers/sisters-in-Christ, not as earthly family.

              I'm not Catholic.   It's Catholics who believe that dead people (especially Mary) have some sort of awareness of the status of people who are left here on earth, and that somehow God listens to her opinion and supposed powers of persuasion to have mercy on them.

              When I go to visit my parents' grave, I may "talk" to them for a bit, but that's for my benefit;  I don't believe they hear me;  there's no reason for them to.   I do believe that God hears every word I say, though, and every thought that I think.

              No, I will not entertain the idea that things I've been taught concerning hell are false!   It will do you no good to even try that with me.   Because I've already considered those things before, and every time that I did,  I remembered Genesis 1:1,  and that brought me back to Spiritual reality and even earthly reality!    The God who created this earth and who created Adam and Eve and set all of mankind in motion is soooooo powerful that we really cannot even imagine how awesome, how august, how great He even is!   He is Sovreign!   I believe He literally did what the Bible says----He made Adam from the dust of the earth!    And that God has the right to do whatever He wants to with me or anyone else!...   BUT....I'm soooo glad that He's the God of LOVE as well as Judgement.    Because I also always remember John 3:16 if I'm struggling with any doubt about hell.   That tells me that I"m a "whosoever",  that even I have the opportunity to not perish!

              ....I'll try to re-read your post again and see if I can respond more,  in a way that might answer your question more fully.......

              1. Disappearinghead profile image88
                Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Brenda, I never suggested talking to dead people. I was suggesting a scenario that is popularly called the final judgement. In the reference to your mother, I was trying to get you to think about the attitude of some Christians, that dismissive attitude they have that 'sinners' only have themselves to blame, and what it might feel like to be on the receiving end of that attitude, completely devoid of love and compassion.

                I'm not suggesting there is any marriage in heaven but I wouldn't presume to think that God would wipe our memories of life on Earth either.

                I completely fail to understand how anyone can reconcile the everlasting love of the Father with the imagery and concept of hell promoted in church. I do not believe that Christians can do this either, but it seems easier for them to avoid the contradiction by the dismissive "God can do as he pleases" or "his ways are not our ways". If you will not even entertain the idea, even in the privacy of your own mind, that what you have been taught is false, then it seems to me that you do not wish to use your own God given mind. The route of personal integrity is to always question what we are taught, then search the scriptures to see if an alternative scenario is better demonstrated; a better match for what is written. This is not a matter for personal pride.

                1. profile image0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I think.......you're asking me to look at it from the perspective of a sinner who wants to find a different way "out" instead of what's in the Bible...........or....to set aside the Bible's words about hell and try to fit a different scenario in place of those verses.....
                  ?  Is that correct?    Which is correct?
                  Because..........the Bible provides no other way out besides repentance for our sins for which Christ died.

                  1. Disappearinghead profile image88
                    Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    No no no. I'm trying to get you to see that your hell makes no logical sense either in terms of love, compassion, justice, balanced judgement, or historical accuracy. Your visions of hell were not invented by the church until at least the 2nd century, possibly the 4th, but embellished over the centuries since.

            3. profile image0
              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              http://youtu.be/1oPjbp3u9Sc


              Sinner's Dream
              Sorry, I Never Knew You

                  Last night as I lay sleeping a dream came to me
                  I dreamed about the end of time about eternity
                  I saw a million sinners fall on their face and pray
                  the Lord just sadly looked at them and this I heard Him say

                  Sorry, I never knew you, I have no record of your birth
                  sorry, I never knew you
                  go serve the one that you served while on earth

                  Well I thought that the time has surely come when I must face my trials
                  and I told the Lord that I had been a Christian all the while
                  and through his book he took a look and sadly shook his head
                  he placed me over on the left and this is what he said

                  Sorry, I never knew you, I have no record of your birth
                  sorry, I never knew you
                  go serve the one that you served while on earth

                  Well I saw my wife and children, I heard their loving voice
                  they must have been so happy, O how they did rejoice
                  their robes of white around them, a crown upon their head
                  my little girl looked up to me and this is what she said

                  Daddy, we can't go with you, we must dwell in the joy of our Lord
                  Sorry, but we still love you, but you'll never be our Daddy anymore

                  And then I awakened, the tears were in my eyes
                  and looking all around me and there to my surprise
                  there was my wife and children, I knew it was a dream
                  so kneeling at my bedside you should have heard me pray

                  Father who art in Heaven, I know you gave your only son
                  forgive me and let me serve thee, for I want to be ready when He comes

              1. Disappearinghead profile image88
                Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Is this where you get your doctrines from?

              2. SwordofManticorE profile image74
                SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Brenda, I have a question for you. Would heaven be appealing for you if you learned that all mankind would join you there forever?

                1. profile image0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sure it would.  Because I trust God's judgement.
                  However,  your scenario is unBiblical and therefore not gonna happen.
                  But if you simply wanted to ask whether I'm capable of loving everyone's soul, then yes I am.   With the help of God who Loves everyone!

    4. Ericdierker profile image82
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Again today I saw the love of Jesus Christ in folks that did not know Him. I saw a good Christian lift up one who was not. And I asked Jesus. If this Christian does this: How much more will you do?
      Can I turn my back on a man for he is not Christian but in need of my love and grace and abundance. I say no, that I can not. I am bound by love to love even my enemy. And I cannot even do that but I try. The Lord of Lords must also try and He can. So how can He leave one soul behind? How could it be so. ... Because we in our ignorance choose so? I would not let my son walk into fire for it was his choice. Oh how I want others to know my joy, here and now, but I am convinced they will know it some how. For my GOD LOVES

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Amen Eric. You are getting closer to knowing the powers of perfect love.

  2. wilderness profile image94
    wildernessposted 3 years ago

    Of course.  Few people will believe in something that makes them unhappy unless it is absolutely forced on them by reality.

    As "salvation" is a belief only, without substantiation, any belief that produces joy and happiness is quite acceptable and millions of people do believe in just such a thing.  In the case of religious beliefs, the belief that billions will suffer eternal torment doesn't particularly mar their happiness in the belief that they, personally, will have an eternity of joy.

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, wilderness, I could't agree more about what you wrote about eternal torment and joy in Christianity.

      1. wilderness profile image94
        wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't mention Christianity.  Muslims are pretty much the same - you either get your virgins or hell, depending on what you do in this life - and there may be others as well.  Maybe earth is the hell, and you keep coming back until you're good enough for heaven.

        Whatever the specific belief, understanding that most will go to hell doesn't seem to mar the happiness in believing you're going to heaven.

        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You do misunderstand, whether willfully or not, I dunno......
          It doesn't "mar" our personal security and happiness, no, because we know that God is the only one who truly knows where each person ultimately ends up.   But it's not a competition like you seem to hint.

          Christians take NO joy in the thought of anyone going to hell.
          What we take joy and peace in is the fact that ANYONE and everyone DOES have the opportunity to go to Heaven.    We grieve for loved ones, friends, and even enemies who refuse to accept Christ,  but we always hold onto the last bit of hope that they will do so before they die.

          1. wilderness profile image94
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I don't misunderstand, but do think you've misunderstood my words (or least their intent).

            It's certainly not a competition, unless you want to count the battle between good and evil.  It's not a competition between people at all, even though some sects think the number of heaven bound is strictly limited.

            And no, Christians don't like to think that people will suffer eternally - I certainly have no intention of insinuating that.  I will take exception to the idea that everyone can win; although I know you will not agree, some people are simply not constructed in such a way they can believe whatever they want to.  It just doesn't happen for them whether you think it can or not.

            And yes, the grief is probably there; it just doesn't matter much when compared with the level of happiness at the idea of sitting eternally at God's feet.

            1. profile image0
              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I understand your point better now, thanks.

              And I think I recall us having one part of this discussion before, a long time ago........

              And yes, I am an "eternal optimist" in a way----I do still believe that everyone can be saved, everyone,  if they will give their hearts to Jesus.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                My heart along with my a$$ belong to the brotherhood of Marines. We already work for Jesus. Here's the deal. He sees to it that we can freely roam the planet as jolly green giants and we keep heaven packed with souls. Works for Him.

              2. wilderness profile image94
                wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I understand that you believe everyone can be saved.  It's almost a necessity (or maybe it IS a necessity) to maintain the concept of a loving God.

                But you will have to forgive me if I say that it simply isn't possible for some to set aside all rational, reasoning, searching and questioning thought in favor of a belief that has zero evidence to support it.  I cannot do that.

                I could put on a false front, I could talk the talk and walk the walk, but I cannot convince myself, deep inside, that there is a God out there any more than you could convince yourself that He is NOT there.  You know better, just as I do - we just "know" different things.

                At that point you can either accept my word on that or you can rationalize, without knowing it to be true, that I could change any day.  It is the difference between our ways of thinking.

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  +1

                2. profile image0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I recall, yes, you and I going through this before. 
                  And I still maintain that you can indeed do it.
                  But if your mind is made up, then I know of no way to convince you, except to repeat what I know and what the Bible says--------that God loved everyone so much that He sent His son to die for our sins, so that we can be saved.   You can choose to Love Him.   
                  We can choose to love anyone.   Our enemies, even.  We can pray and ask God to give us Love for even our enemies.   I hope that someday you will find it in your heart to want to Love the Lord..........
                  I'm not giving up on that.  I wish you wouldn't.

                  1. wilderness profile image94
                    wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL.  Not at you, Brenda, but at our mutual differences for I remember this topic before, too.

                    Because I feel much the same about you.  That you choose to believe a book of lies, that you will make up stories to change reality into something that agrees with that book, that you will never, ever change your mind and approach the question analytically is sad. 

                    And, just like you, I will always wish that everyone had that ability and willingness to objectively question rather than simply believe.  I will forever be disappointed, just as you will. 

                    I will have to be satisfied with the accepted fact that you are happy the way you are (and that's wonderful) and you...perhaps you will one day decide that there are many roads to heaven, that one does not have to believe to one day bask in the joy and happiness there.  That God created some of us unable to set aside our analytical minds, but that he loves us anyway and will welcome us, too, into His home.  Certainly I would welcome you into mine...

            2. cheaptrick profile image75
              cheaptrickposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What if God doesn't wash his feet?

              1. wilderness profile image94
                wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Then eternity will stink.  What those believing in an eternity of joy and happiness forget is that without God's help in making a massive change in the mind and psyche of humans, they cannot be happy for eternity.  A lobotomy, maybe, or the inability to remember past a few years ago.

                No thinking being could enjoy that - within a very few thousand years utter boredom will set in, to the point that death or even hell is preferable to the experience they are suffering through.  When every possible scrap of knowledge is known, when every possible experience has been repeated a thousand times, utter and complete boredom will be the result. As all that will be achieved in the first baby step towards eternity it leaves the rest of eternity as torment.

                Yeah, an eternity in heaven, or anywhere else for that matter, would absolutely stink.  Death is freedom, not something to be wished for.

                1. Jerami profile image77
                  Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I've been thinking about something like that for a long time; which is why God would have to create a place like earth so we could cross over to spend a life time ( kinda like a vacation) to break that boredom.

                  1. wilderness profile image94
                    wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    A lifetime - certainly.  Maybe 10 lifetimes, or a hundred or 10,000 "vacations".  When that gets tiresome, maybe another 10,000 "vacations (between periods in heaven) on a different planet.

                    No matter how many times it was done, though, eventually every possible experience as been done 1000's of times and you're right back to incredible boredom. 

                    Few people actually think about what "eternity" means - they just think of a long time.  Eternity doesn't mean a long time, it means a long time squared.  Then squared again, again and again.  At that point you have taken the first tiny step towards eternity and have a million steps to go before reaching the first street corner; the first street corner of the millions of street corners in one city.  The first city out of billions of cities and so on.  Experiences without end cannot result in anything but boredom and insanity. 

                    Eternity is a difficult concept to wrap our mind around.

  3. profile image0
    Rayne123posted 3 years ago

    Just because something is unseen does not mean it isn't in existence.

 
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