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If all mankind deserve endless punishment, is it right?

  1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    If it would be right for God to punish all men eternally, would it not be wrong for Him not to do it?

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      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well, realistically, there is no right or wrong in what God chooses to do with his creation. We can state our own opinions as to how we personally feel about it but at the end of the day, it doesn't belong to us so we truly have no say in the matter. One of the biggest issues that is faced is when we try to limit God to what we would have him to be instead of what he truly is

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Gen 18:25...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And what does this scripture mean to you?

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
            SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It means that everything that Goid does is right.

            1. janesix profile image59
              janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not so sure about that.

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                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Out of curiosity, why would you not be sure of that?

                1. janesix profile image59
                  janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Because I think God isn't as sweet and full of goodness as many people claim.

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
                    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Why Jane?

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                    Rayne123posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I agree with you, but the way I look at it, is most people do not want to admit to God wrath, why I do not know. If they claim to read the bible they also would be reading about this wrath.

                    Makes no sense why in the world people do not want to admit to his wrath. If you follow his ways then you have nothing to worry about.

                    I believe God should punish, if not then it makes no sense to even have a
                    God who takes care of our world that we destructed with the tools we were given.

                    Wrath is mentioned quite a bit in the bible. However God will give you the world if and only if you follow his ways.

    2. Titen-Sxull profile image94
      Titen-Sxullposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The idea of a mortal human being, living a finite life, committing a set number of deeds in that life, being judged worthy of infinite punishment for that finite list of deeds is an oxymoron. It contradicts everything we understand about justice.

      What right exactly does any non-human entity have to pass judgment on us, let alone a judgment as unfair and purposeless as an eternity in Hell. Hell cannot have a purpose beyond agony, if the fundamentalists are to be believed, it is punishment plain and simple. There is no rehabilitation, no remaining mercy from God to be begged for, just endless torment.

      And for what acts is this punishment inflicted? In some religions it is as simple as not paying proper respect to the Gods, not giving them the correct offering. In others it is offenses that are completely disjointed from God. As a teenager growing up we were taught that consensual pre-marital sex was still a sin because it went against God. But what harm is incurred to God from this act?

      In fact, if God is all powerful, what harm can ever be done beyond a temporary emotional duress? We human beings are fragile, we can be injured, we can be killed and if many religions are to be believed we can be entirely unmade, annihilated from existence if it is the will of the gods or God. Meanwhile a perfect and infinite God cannot suffer any injury that cannot be healed, cannot lose anything that cannot be replaced.

      So, to answer your question, it CANNOT be right, by any definition of the word we understand, for anyone to be punished eternally. Furthermore no crime we ever commit could be as pointless, cruel or evil as torturing someone for eternity would be. Human beings are limited and so can only inflict limited pain. A limitless God who cannot suffer true loss or know true frailty could also give out limitless punishment, but such an act would be among the worst acts imaginable by any being, real or fictional.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image89
        Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Absolutely agree 100%.

        You said something rather thought provoking. If our sin does no harm to another man and at best can only offend the sensibilities of God, how on Earth can that sin warrant eternal punishment subjected to wilful torture with no chance of escape? How can anyone deem this to be an act of a loving Father? It's a completely mental notion.

        Christians know that their hell is totally preposterous so they try to get God off the hook with contrived devices like 'he is not a man', 'his ways are not our ways', or some other such nonsense.

    3. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Assuming that your concept of god is bound to always do what is right, and assuming the only right course of action is to eternally punish all men, and assuming you define wrong as anything that is not right, then not punishing all men would, by definition, be wrong. Anything else is logically impossible, given those premises.

      Assuming unicorns are white, and assuming the animal in my garden is a unicorn, then the animal in my garden must be white. Anything else is logically impossible given those premises.

      What, if anything, have we both just demonstrated?

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think being able to reason one's way into accepting eternal punishment as right, or not, is the point. The point is, what is reasonable and right. I'm sure Hitler had, what he considered to be, sound and rational reasoning behind policies. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer considered his actions reasonable. I'm sure those who commit acts of terror consider their actions reasonable and right.

        It isn't so much a question of what is the essence of God; but what type of essence defines an entity who is worthy of the title. Eternal punishment could very well be reasonable and right in a different plane of existence, however; it is not reasonable or right in this plane. If we consider such behavior reprehensible in our fellow men, why would anyone worship an entity who didn't understand basic human rights? Why worship an entity who, if it existed in this plane of existence, would be hunted down and tried for crimes against humanity? Why hold its claimed musings up as an example to follow? Why not hold it to the same standards we consider to be the best and most compassionate in our world?

        This is not meant to be an argument against the existence of God. It is only a question of why people need to perceive that entity as having lower standards of conduct than our own.

        1. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly the point I was hoping to demonstrate.

          In terms of right and wrong, I always wonder how and why people who believe in a traditional christian concept of god (omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc.) think they are able to second guess such a being. If such a being actually existed, surely discerning whether its actions are "right" would require the ability to perceive the entirety of the universe from its beginning to end (assuming only one). In other words they would need to be equal to their own concept of god. Anything less would make it impossible to discern the final outcome of all the actions in history.

          For those who don't believe in such a being, I always wonder how and why they hypothesise that if the christian concept of god actually existed it would be evil. By definition, that can't be the case. By all means people can argue with the definition, or say such a being doesn't exist at all, but it doesn't make sense to say if the christian concept of god existed it would be evil. That's a contradiction in terms.

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I don't see it as a contradiction in terms. You could exist on another plane of existence and conduct yourself in a way we perceive as reprehensible; all the while being a model citizen on  your plane of existence. However, that wouldn't change the fact that you are, by our standards, reprehensible.

            Saying God can do whatever he wants because it is his creation doesn't change the fact that Christians claim this is his creation. If you were created to perceive certain actions on this plane as evil; it seems almost insane to expect you to then turn a blind eye to those same actions on another plane.

            It's almost ludicrous when you think it through. You are to love God and others as yourself. To put others on an equal footing. To show compassion and concern. Feed the poor. Comfort the sick. Give the coat off of your back to a homeless person. Carry the pack of your oppressor and do it cheerfully. Share what you have joyfully. Be a good Samaritan.

            Then, if you have done all of these things or, at the least, accepted Jesus as your savior because he did all of those things and you admire him for the effort; you will be rewarded by a place in the kingdom of God. You will be able lounge in paradise and watch as the poor guy who stole food in order to survive is murdered. The person who became sick from a sexually transmitted disease is incinerated. The guy who was homeless who you gave your coat to is extinguished simply because he was homeless as a result of a drug addiction. The oppressor whose knapsack you cheerfully lugged around, and all of his comrades, are exterminated. Those people you joyfully shared with don't have to be shared with anymore because they didn't make the cut. The person you played the good Samaritan with isn't a Christian so they get incinerated also.

            What purpose would it serve to attempt to teach you to be good, kind and compassionate for a blurb of a human lifetime if the eternity you are rewarded with is at direct odds with those teachings?

            1. Don W profile image83
              Don Wposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Ah but that's not what most people are saying when they suggest that god as defined by traditional Christianity is evil. What they are doing is the equivalent of suggesting that they are capable of determining the moral goodness/badness of an omniscient, omnipotent being. To do that would require them to be omniscient etc. So by claiming an hypothetical Christian god is actually evil, they are themselves claiming to be the equal of such a being. In effect they are claiming to be god. As arguments go that's probably not the best. As I said, questioning the Christian conception of god, or denying such a being's existence is one thing, but suggesting that if such a being exists it is evil, is ludicrous. If such a being existed then you and I have no accurate measure by which to judge it.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Of course we do, just as a young child could come to the conclusion that their parents are not good parents we are capable of understand what is ethically and morally right or good. Extortion for example is not ethically the right thing to do and extortion is what the God of the bible is doing which is a complete contradiction to what that God wants us to do. I'm not saying God is unethical, I'm saying those who wrote the bible were unethical. The contradictions are an indication that no God was involved.

                1. Don W profile image83
                  Don Wposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Coming to a conclusion is not the issue. Coming to the right conclusion is. A child can easily come to the wrong conclusion about her parents because she does not have the necessary knowledge and experience to make an accurate judgement.

                  It is the equivalent of a small child telling Mr. Einstein he is wrong because it should be ABC not E=MC2.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    A child being told by his parents to do as their told or they will burn them will correctly understand that their parents are not nice people.

    4. Kevin Peter profile image71
      Kevin Peterposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      God never does anything wrong. what he has done till now and what he has planned to do in future are all right. Who are we human beings to say opinion on his deeds?

      1. A Troubled Man profile image61
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thinking, reasoning and rationalizing humans who opine God is an Immoral, unethical tyrant.

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    Rayne123posted 3 years ago

    HI

    All I know is that God can do what he wants when he wants and does not have to justify or answer to any of us.

    I just listened to a sermon (led to it) by Joel Olseen and he said , we can do what we want when we want live our free will, however what is being done to us is in the hands of the Lord.

    He can take who he wants out of the way or bring them in.

    So I guess we have no say in our destiny, God does.

    In a scripture on Gods wrath, it states

    Vengeance is mine I will repay, so that pretty much sums it up

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What vengence are you referring to?

  3. janesix profile image59
    janesixposted 3 years ago

    No. It would not be "right" for God to punish someone endlessly.

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    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    If God gave man reason, then we have not only the right, but the obligation, to reason what is fair and what is not. For everyone. Of course, if there is a Creator it has the right to do what it wants. But, what type of Creator would go to all of the trouble to give you the ability to think and then create a scenario where you think it has purposely created a scenario where it can burn vast numbers of people? Would it have put us here in the first place? If so, it sounds like an evil entity.

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Bang on Emile.

  5. janesix profile image59
    janesixposted 3 years ago

    I am not an atheist. I believe in God. I have felt his power. He scares the crap out of me. However, that won't keep me from questioning him relentlesslessly until i get a satifactory answer. At first i was afraid to question him, but then I realized that he KNOWS me inside and out, my every thought and feeling. how can I hide what i feel, or what I think of him? I can't. That's when i decided that I would openly question him, instead of cowering like a rabbit.

    Does he have a "right' to make us suffer? i don't know what that really means. I suppose he can do whatever he wants. but does that make what he does right?

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Jane, I believe in Him too, and I get were you are going. I went as far as to curse Him for creating me when I believed in hell. I believed and feared hell, but kept backsliding. Imagine that?

      1. janesix profile image59
        janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I don't believe in Hell. I suspect if anything, this here is as close to Hell as it gets.

        I also don't believe in Satan, although I did at one time.

        I think that God is it. He created everything, good and bad.

        I think he has both aspects. But just like he expects of us, he controls his lower impulses. I think that might be what he wants from us. To behave and control our lower desires and emotions. I suspect we are stuck here in 'Hell" until we learn to do it.

        1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
          SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's one way of looking at it. I also do not believe in satan, that is the entity of evil if I may put it.I believe that satan "the adversary" is our carnal desires.

          1. janesix profile image59
            janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So do I.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image61
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Fear is a powerful persuader. Once one realizes gods are all just myths and superstitions, similar to the ones that frighten little children, the fear disappears entirely and gods are held up to the light only to find they are wanting.

      1. janesix profile image59
        janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Funny thing, though. I'm not afraid to face God, while you are too afraid to even attempt to find him.

        1. JMcFarland profile image90
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I'm not afraid.  I've been looking for years.  The problem is that god seems to be MIA - AWOL or, you know, just doesn't exist.

          1. janesix profile image59
            janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Then you aren't looking hard enough. He's easy to find. Have you tried meditation at all? contemplative prayer?

            Locking yourself in a room with only water for a week and praying for him to show up until he does?

            1. JMcFarland profile image90
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I don't think that willfully putting myself in a position to induce hallucinations is necessarily healthy - or the right answer.  Putting yourself in a state where you're susceptible to suggestion, impulse, auditory, visionary or mental hallucinations is not the answer to finding god - it's the answer to finding out that the mind plays tricks on you when your body is not properly cared for.

              1. janesix profile image59
                janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Whatever, God doesn't care for lukewarm. You don't want it badly enough.

                1. JMcFarland profile image90
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  okay.  I wasn't aware that I was speaking to god's mindreader on earth.  thanks for letting me know.

                  What makes you think that as a complete stranger you are in a position to judge what I want, how hard I've tried or what steps I've taken to get to this point?

                  1. janesix profile image59
                    janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Because if you want to, you will. Obviously you haven;t yet.

                2. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  That is one of the lamest excuses thus far. lol

                  1. janesix profile image59
                    janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You're still here? You should be meditating and trying to clear your chakras. You'll never find god in a forum, sorry. I know you're looking pretty hard.

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                Rayne123posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I agree with you however God does not expect us to lock ourselves in a room and not care for ourselves to find him. No one said to do that at all.

                Just close your eyes and talk to him and meditate on his promises wherever you feel fit is all you have to do.

                Silence your mind and your soul will be enlighten.

                1. JMcFarland profile image90
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  That is, in fact, what Jane told me to do.

                  I have done what you suggested and god didn't show up

                  1. janesix profile image59
                    janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Maybe God doesn't want you to wake up yet. You might still have stuff here to work through before you're ready.

                2. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  It's always fascinating that a believer can, and so often does, give such directions with a straight face.

                  You're seriously telling JM to speak to your invisible, nonexistent friend and think about nonexistent promises from that friend?  And to do so while not thinking, but use a nonexistent "soul" to draw conclusions with?

                  Given that those questions are exactly what a non-believer reads from your post, how can you possibly expect them to do so, or even really understand what you are even saying?

            2. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What does that have to do with looking for God?



              So, we have to make ourselves incredibly stupid first by starving ourselves to the point of delirium.

              1. janesix profile image59
                janesixposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Meditation is the most effective way to find god.

                I wasn't suggesting actually starving yourself, but I think you know that. It's the strength of your intent that is important.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Completely false.



                  I need food and nourishment in order to strengthen my intent. Of course, there isn't anything I can do to find God, He simply has to present Himself for viewing. Nothing could be easier. lol

        2. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The very worst of it all though is the fact that you claim to know God and have seen Him, yet you refuse to send Him my way. That, after all the talk, talk, talk about Jesus.

          Which rock should I look under to find Him?

          Hilarious.

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    Rad Manposted 3 years ago

    Here's a thought. Maybe for the followers of the bible extortion is not a problem and is in fact ethical. The bible clearly says God extorts worship with the threat of hellfire and extortion is not one of the big ten and I don't think it's mentioned anywhere else. Perhaps the mafia have it right and will be going straight to heaven for doing as the bible teaches?

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe, since they don't look at it as extortion, it isn't a problem. Maybe it is as simple as two different roads. You choose a road. The roads run parallel, allowing you the opportunity of moving from one to the other at any point. I assume the choice is always there, if the roads exist at all. I would assume, at whatever moment you become aware of the roads, you still retain the choices.

      I always think of the book 'The Stand'. So many ran toward the side I saw as hell, but it was their idea of heaven. It was where they felt the most comfortable. Maybe, my idea of hell is someone else's idea of heaven. Maybe, if any of it is true, you could look over at me and I could look over at you and we would each find our own surroundings wonderful and pity each other; because your idea of heaven wasn't mine.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        So, all these branches of Christianity (if the God of the bible exists) may be shocked if they are allowed into heaven to find all the various mafia branches and personal in very high standings.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I tend to think we will all be shocked. If anyone knew anything for sure, we wouldn't all be sitting around arguing the point.

          Don't be so hard on the mafia. We are all victims of reality.  If a soul exists it can't change genetic make up, it can't change environmental factors, it can't change how your prejudices form from interaction with others. It can't control urges from physical or psychological addictions. It is really at the mercy of your body and the greater portion of the physical reality we share. I realize there are people and behavior patterns we consider abhorrent; but I honestly think if we viewed the journey that brought them to that point we could see what motivated that wrong turn, and realize they didn't take that journey alone.

          We all have to take responsibility for our actions, but we should also be willing to accept that no human is an island. Any failure of one is a failure of others to be a positive influence at a crucial moment. We are all in this reality together. And if there if a judgment to pass, we will all pass or fail together.

      2. A Troubled Man profile image61
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        When we hear of "choices', we assume more than one choice is available.

        But, when only the extremes of the many alternatives available are offered; roasting over an open fire for an eternity, then it is a no longer a choice, it is a threat.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And from the way I see it, any true believer should be using extortion to obtain the things they need as taught by the God of the bible.

          Members of the various Mafia's may be the only ones in heaven. The Irony is killing me.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I think most people think they make the right choices. With the information available to them. So, if that is true, you are always on the right road for you.

          I remember when I was a kid. I heard something from a Bible teacher that has always stuck  with me. I'm sure you've heard it. Heaven and hell are identical. A table laden with food. People sitting around it with arms too short to feed themselves. In heaven, you feed your neighbor and all is harmonious. In hell they starve because they are too selfish to feed their neighbor. 

          The point is that there is no difference in the destination. The roads remain forever parallel. Who you are at any moment, your actions and the actions of those around you, determines if it is heaven or hell.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So, when one believes they are making the right choices, they are on the right road, even if the choices turn out to be wrong more often then not?

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              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              In theory, yes. If I am making a decision with good intentions, I am taking the best road for me. If I make a mistake, then I make adjustments, but it is still all done with good intentions.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You would then have to define good intentions. For some good intentions would be to kill all the infidels. I'm not fond of that intent.

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                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Touche'. But good intentions also includes keeping with laws of the land and causing no harm

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Good intentions are primarily following God's commands and doing as He wishes, too.  Such as killing infidels.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    The law of the land in Saudi Arabia disallows women from driving. The law of the land in Iran says Gays must die and infidelity is punishable by stoning to death. They bury the men in sand from the wast down and through stones until they are dead, with women they bury then from the neck down.

                    They lay of the land is not aways good intentions.

  7. AmbitiousMarketer profile image61
    AmbitiousMarketerposted 3 years ago

    Would god have created us had he known we were going to destroy his beautiful garden?

    Would you nurse, look after and house rats in your beautiful green garden?

 
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