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The Free Will Defense of God

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    Sooner28posted 3 years ago

    I plan to write a hub about this, because more and more, I see this defense as ridiculously weak, especially for the conservatives who believe in an afterlife.

    I'm only going to contest one point here: That people are allowed to do evil things because God doesn't want to interfere with their free will.

    Take the Ariel Castro case as an example.

    Now, all theists agree that God only acts morally.  He is the "moral standard bearer" and every action or inaction he takes is morally justified.

    People also agree that violent self-defense is sometimes morally justified (in cases where lethal is the only option), and this applies to watching a crime occur and not helping, such as seeing a woman getting raped and doing nothing to stop it, or defending oneself against a relentless attacker.  There can also be lethal self-defense as a last resort.

    Now, let's consider the fact that the three girls could not fight back against Castro, both for physical and psychological reasons.  This means that if someone were to defend them against Castro, that someone would be morally justified, because they couldn't do it themselves.

    However, no one else knew the girls were being held, at least if everyone involved in the case is telling the truth.  I'll make that assumption for the purposes of this argument.

    So, the only "person" who could defend the girls would be God.  We've already agreed that God only acts morally, and that the moral choice in this case is some sort of defense of the girls, since they were powerless.  It thus follows that if God is moral, he should have stepped in to save these girls.

    God would not have to use deadly force, or anything painful at all.  Castro could've been put into a deep sleep (like Adam), and this would give the girls time to escape.  Or think of any other scenario you like, and the result is the same.

    The applications of this argument are far reaching.  Anytime God allows an innocent person to be slaughtered, raped, etc, and does not step in, he is acting immorally; he is morally negligent.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I have to be honest and state that stories like the Castro incident you talk about, do cause me to doubt the existence of God. Either that or he has a non-intervention policy.

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        Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Well deism could be true!

    2. kess profile image60
      kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The argument and your subsequent argument is flawed because it is based on "man's understanding" of morality and Justice.

      The term "man's understanding" means one whose do not comprehend purpose of man, which incorporates  knowledge of his state of existence without body...

      The morality ond Justice of God does incorporate such knowledge.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Our understanding of morality and justice far exceeds anything written in a holy book and is far more relevant.



        Baloney. We don't based our purpose on ancient myths and superstitions. You are free to do so.



        Those are fairy tales for children.

        1. kess profile image60
          kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          are youb ever going to change the color of that air?

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Are you ever going to stop talking nonsense? One must follow the other.

            1. kess profile image60
              kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Okay then carry on, carry on.


              You are heading somewhere with that ofcourse.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, and much better than going nowhere.

                1. kess profile image60
                  kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  nowhere is still somewhere

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yeah, good luck with that.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What could be ethical about not saving those girls? I think our sense of ethics and morality is as good as it gets. How dare you justify what happened to those girls as someone being moral according to God?

        1. kess profile image60
          kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          If you can curb your zeal to speak,
          you would hear differently,
          thus you'd find good reasons to stay silent.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That was not a comment on my post?

            1. kess profile image60
              kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes,
              If you had read my original post and ignored the chatter in your own mind,
              you would see how unnecessary/irrelevant your response was.

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                what exactly is it that makes you feel that you're so superior to people who disagree with you, and consequentially puts you in a position to judge them?

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I think you started insulting me because you have no argument against my comment. You see, any real God or Man/Women for that matter wouldn't allow or justify anyone to raping 3 girls for 10 years without stopping them. Your justification for this behaviour is weak at best and if I may say a little embarrassing.

                Not to mention I'm not the one claiming to have chatter in my mind.

                1. kess profile image60
                  kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You can keep arguing you moot point.....

                  1. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    and you can continue making no points whatsoever and just criticizing individuals instead of their arguments.

    3. Silverspeeder profile image61
      Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Blaming God for mans inhumanity is the easy scapegoat, take a look and when you understand the purpose maybe you will realise its not what the organised religions keep telling you it's about what is actually in the bible that matters.
      There is an issue far greater than whether you believe in god or not, if you can't see it I can't show it to you.

      1. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Why don't you at least try to show us, or is your opinion of our intellect that low?  Maybe if you at least tried to show us, some of us could possibly grasp your great superior wisdom and understanding...even if only on a plebeian level.

        1. Silverspeeder profile image61
          Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I wasn't being condescending I was being truthful. To many people believe that the bible tells them something which it doesn't. There is now mention of hell, hades yes and the Greek word hades pertains to the common grave, hades is a man made idea, the same as going off to heaven when you die, some rewards or punishment for Middle Ages Christians so to keep them in line.
          If you have read the bible and understand it you will see the bigger picture then you will know why god isn't interfering, just as with Job the act has to play its way out.
          If god is indeed eternal than a few thousand years of mankind is a few seconds on his eyes and a conclusion will come when it comes. But if course you knew all these things already but overlooked them because your priest, pastor or clergy follow there religions theocratic line.
          The Devil making a good play of it.

          1. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And out of the many interpretations of the bible, how do we know that yours is the correct one?

          2. JMcFarland profile image91
            JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It has to play out like job?  Have you read job?  God made a bet with the adversary and slowed him to do whatever he wanted to him short of taking jobs life.  It is disgusting.  Thigh, when job finally cracks after losing everything, god rebukes him for questioning him.  How morally repulsive is that story?

            1. tirelesstraveler profile image86
              tirelesstravelerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Did you read the last part of the story of Job?

            2. Silverspeeder profile image61
              Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Actually god gave him 10 times as much as he had previously. But that's exactly what i am on about, we could read the same bible and come to a different conclusion, mainly because of previous teachings.
              No one needs to defend god they only have to defend their own actions when called upon.
              I never profess that my conclusion is right Getitrite, i have however read many variations, many editions hand at one time researched as much as i could because i too couldn't and wouldn't believe in a god who could be so cruel, then i realised what was happening and decided that taking the bible as a whole overlaying all the evidence and concluding that there is still more to happen and what ever man does it cant be with gods blessing even if the clergy say it is.

              1. getitrite profile image79
                getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No matter which way you try to spend it, the book of Job is one of the worst glorifications of abject psychopathic abuse.  Why would anyone pursue worshiping some mentally disturbed monster who purposely tortures weaker creatures just to prove a bet.  If God is omniscient, this could only be torture, because He knew the results without allowing the test.  And why would He need to prove anything to Satan.  I didn't think He had that much respect for Satan.  Does He...and why?



                Then why are you here doing just that.  He could have told us that himself, but for some reason you felt the need to speak for him.  Why don't you let him tell us that He doesn't need defending?



                In other words, you tricked your mind into believing, despite your best effort at accepting logic and reason.

                1. Silverspeeder profile image61
                  Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Maybe he will say it, just because he hasn't said it yet doesn't mean he is not going to. Like I said half way through the story and you are guessing the end.

                  1. getitrite profile image79
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Why do YOU need to tell me that?.  Your God is all powerful, He should certainly be able to tell me the same things that you have just stated.  Why hasn't He?  You are not all powerful.  Why are you here stating something in defense of an all powerful being?  Do you see just how silly this is?

              2. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                so the fact that god gave him a new wife, new children and new riches, that makes the abject destruction of everything he had before, the loss of his family, servants and property as well as physical health okay?  I don't think so.  Job is one of the most disturbing fables in the entire bible - but it's not alone.  One of my favorite stories is the two she-bears that god sent to eat 42 children just for calling a prophet bald.  Or Jephthah burnt offering of his only daughter.  All great lessons in morality.

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                riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                So should I presume you would be happy if your son is dead and is replaced by 10 others?

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                  Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Lol.  Good point.

                2. Silverspeeder profile image61
                  Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't know, if you lost your son would you be happy if they were replaced by 10 more sons?

                  1. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    no I wouldn't.  No number of "replacements" could take the place of the child that I lost - yet you're claiming that because god eventually gave job more children that it made up for the fact that he gave satan permission to kill the rest of them.  That notion to me is absurd.

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                    riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I won't be happy. But you propose replacing the sons of job was a blessing!

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        Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This doesn't address my point though.

      3. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Then, don't praise God for mans humanity.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Good luck with that.

  2. tirelesstraveler profile image86
    tirelesstravelerposted 3 years ago

    If you have a god who can be defended or not, your god is too small.    My God understands far more than I do about the future or the passed. His economy uses the good and the bad farther into the future than I can even imagine.

    1. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds like you are defending your God, because He should have been able to say that for himself.

      1. tirelesstraveler profile image86
        tirelesstravelerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        He has, that's the only reason I could say that.

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          Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I don't understand why nice people like you buy into such a vengeful version of God.

          1. Silverspeeder profile image61
            Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It seems once again the non believer believes he is right, he has no evidence as to who god is or what he is, all he can do is blame god for the woes of the world when he understands nothing and will argue to the end of time that he is right and righteous.
            The depiction of god as being cruel and horrid is one that others also have especially as they have searched for reasons not to believe in god.
            What I ave taken from the story of Job is that if someone keeps their faith they will be rewarded, it also shows that man can endure anything if he believes in it.

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Really? How did Job's family fair?

              1. Silverspeeder profile image61
                Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I know nothing about how Jobs family or even if they believed in god so how can we know whether or not what happened to them was deserving or not. The story is about Job and his dedication.
                It certainly shows that just being aware of god is not enough and conviction in and worship of god is required to received the rewards promised..
                However if you believe there is no reward then the story or indeed the bible itself is of no use to you and maybe you should look elsewhere.

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So now you're backpedaling.  You originally said that jobs family cursed god so they deserved to die.  Now you're saying we don't know.

                  1. Silverspeeder profile image61
                    Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    New International Version (©2011)
                    His wife said to him, "Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!"
                    New Living Translation (©2007)
                    His wife said to him, "Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die."

                    English Standard Version (©2001)
                    Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.”

                    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
                    Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!"

                    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
                    Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

                    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
                    His wife said to him, "Do you still retain your integrity? Curse God and die!"

                    International Standard Version (©2012)
                    Then his wife told him, "Do you remain firm in your integrity? Curse God and die!"

                    NET Bible (©2006)
                    Then his wife said to him, "Are you still holding firmly to your integrity? Curse God, and die!"

                    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
                    His wife asked him, "Are you still holding on to your principles? Curse God and die!"

                    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
                    Then said his wife unto him, Do you still retain your integrity? curse God, and die.

                    American King James Version
                    Then said his wife to him, Do you still retain your integrity? curse God, and die.

                    American Standard Version
                    Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still hold fast thine integrity? renounce God, and die.

                    Douay-Rheims Bible
                    And his wife said to him: Dost thou still continue in thy simplicity? bless God and die.

                    Darby Bible Translation
                    And his wife said to him, Dost thou still remain firm in thine integrity? curse God and die.

                    English Revised Version
                    Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still hold fast thine integrity? renounce God, and die.

                    Webster's Bible Translation
                    Then said his wife to him, Dost thou still retain thy integrity? curse God, and die.

                    World English Bible
                    Then his wife said to him, "Do you still maintain your integrity? Renounce God, and die."

                    Young's Literal Translation
                    And his wife saith to him, 'Still thou art keeping hold on thine integrity: bless God and die.'

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No news to me, I started that journey 35 years ago.

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              Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              How long are you going to go without addressing the substance of the discussion?

  3. peeples profile image90
    peeplesposted 3 years ago

    People claim their God can not interfere with free well yet when a "miracle" happens the same  God is credited. I'm not sure how someone can say their god can not stop a bad person but can save someone who is dying.
    Another thing how would this God pick and choose who is deserving for a "miracle" and who isn't? Why weren't these girls rescued years ago with one of God's interventions (miracles)?

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      Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Why did Jesus only heal a small number of sick people in the world?

      If you have the capacity to heal someone so easily, you have a moral obligation to do so.  Yet, Jesus did not...

      1. PeopleWasHere profile image61
        PeopleWasHereposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        if i heal myself from a bad doctors, practice  actions' and they see a miracle' because your still living isn't that and obscure sigh?  That there is something else in charge ,and that it was witnessed by doctors that are supposed to heal us not kill us!

  4. PeopleWasHere profile image61
    PeopleWasHereposted 3 years ago

    Here is a defense for you if you knew your father was watching would you pretend  that you helped' 'Guide a blind mans cane, to the safety of the curb,  or just do it because he was watching?

 
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