Which of the three represents God the best when it comes to salvation?
Arminianism - God can't save all?
Calvinism - God won't save all?
Universalism - God will save all?
God will save all , however only if we ask and live his will. He sees/hears/knows all. We have free will if we dont ask we wont hear/listen.
One must ask from the heart, if we ask but go out and commit robbery God allows us to suffer the consequences/fall in our own traps
Evangelism - Followers can threaten us all.
I can't speak for God as to who He will save and who He will not.
Yes, He desires that all would be saved, but I have yet to come across scripture that says everyone will be saved.
Can you pick one of the three? Btw, I can show you many verses that 3 is the answer.
Sorry, I meant to write that my answer makes me #2, though I'm not familiar with Calvinism. Feel free to post whichever verses you choose and I will respond as best I can.
Because repentance is necessary for salvation.
What form of salvation are you referring to when it comes to repentance?
And where is that in scripture if you dont mind me asking?
Luke 13:4 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
Who was Christ speaking to when He spoke these words? They were not gentiles, because He came only to minister to the lost sheep of Israel, not the gentiles.
2 Cor 7: 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Death as in spiritual death. When we become followers of Christ, repentance come easy for us, and we are filled with life. But the unbeliever who does not repent is fill with a spiritual death and cannot achieve joy or happiness without God in their lives. Btw, The apostle Paul never once warned the gentiles about the fires of Gehenna, let alone a place called hell. Acts 20:27 tells us that he taught us all what God wants us to know, yet Paul never warned us about hell. What is up with that?
No 'ism' or combination thereof, can show the fullness of God.
But yet God is an integral part of every one.
This is because God is complete.
The Gospel of the Christ and the Gospel of the anti-Christ have much in common
except one is incomplete.
This shows the nature of deception, in that the more truth there is to it, the greater the potential to deceive.
What a controversial question. It should arouse many. I certainly could not answer it. For they all reflect mans idea of what God is. They all have a built in assumption that God must act a certain way so that we can understand him and live accordingly.
Certainly we must try to act in accordance with what we believe. I think and believe that God wants me to know him and love him as he loves me. So as for me and my household it just does not matter. Can't and won't certainly do not apply to our God. Both those words in my household are basically dirty words we do not use even for ourselves. But I have been too surprised too often to determine aforehand what God "will" do. We do not even pray for God to do something particular because whatever we can desire He can do so much more.
So even though I cannot answer your question I must say my answer would be (d) none of the above.
He failed with that one when He failed with Adam and Eve.
Can God who is Alpha and Omega -- Want? Certainly He would not need. But would He have desires not already fulfilled? I do not see that as consistent with omnipotence. We speak of our choices, but why would God have choices? It just would be. He lets us know His desire, but that is for us as a guide. Not a restriction on Him.
Ok Eric, let me put it this way, Will His will be done?
Btw, I like your comments.
My wife will not let our 3 year old make any choices. I make him make all his choices, sometimes he chooses wrong. My will for him is that he learn and develop and grow, not that he does what I want. If I protect him completely from consequence, what then? But if he fails, that does not lesson my love. I have yet to punish him. He does that himself.
I understand that, but will God's will be done?
Then you did not understand that. God's will is clearly to give us our time here to learn and grow and fail and die. And this is what happens every day. It is not a matter of "will" it be done. It cannot be. God's will IS done. Your need for a human timeline is amusing, but only your need not His.
Oh yes I did, but you still haven't answered if His will, will be done?
Yes I did. It is done. Your use of tenses is so wrong with God. (IMHO) What will God do? Is non-sequitor. What part of Alpha and Omega is hard for you? You have been playing with the folks that answer 1 and/or 2 for too long. Next your going to tell us God must forgive everyone. Just like they say the opposite.
What makes you know what is right or wrong about anything I say or believe in Eric? What makes you the wiser between the two of us. The alpha and the omega has no time stream. God must NOT forgive everyone. He WILL do it (If not done already) according to His will out of perfect love for His creation. Or do you concider eternal torture in a pit of endless fire perfect justice after judgment?
Excuse meeeee! Absolutely God already forgave everyone, I reckon some time around Genesis. He is a Father. Then He sent Jesus so us knuckleheads could get it again. I am sorry but God still has some knuckleheads for children. I wonder if He shakes his head like I do. Some folks need the rules.
Never apologize followed with a "but". Besides you have no need to apologize to another believer. The only one shaking heads is you Eric, not our Father. Btw, God doesn't create knuckle heads. I will ask someone else who has the courage to answer the question if God's will, will be done. I already know the answer, I hoped you did too.
Nah my only argument with the question is really "has God's will been done"? And the answer is always yes. And that will is to love us as His children. But be clear, you will go to hell, if God does not love you. Now go find someone like that!!
The "superior" neck must be constantly sore.
So do you believe that God will stop loving part of His creation and allow them to be eternally tortured?
Forgive me for interjecting, but I wish to ask you; will God forgive everyone, even those who are not interested in His forgiveness or want any part of Him? Does He grant eternal life to everyone, regardless if they want it or not?
Yes it's a done deal. At the cross Jesus asked the Father to forgive those responsible for his crucifixion and the baying crowds. The question is, did the Father answer Jesus' prayer and forgive them? I say the Father did forgive them unconditionally. That is Pilate, the High Priest, the Roman executioners, the Pharisees were forgiven because Jesus asked, and none of these unsavoury characters were required to ask the Father themselves, say a sinners prayer, or even repent. The moment Jesus asked the Father to forgive he forgave. That's the gospel, that's grace, that's unconditional love, not the plastic strings attached gospel peddled by the Church today.
Just to be clear, what you are saying is that no matter what sin we commit, they are instantly forgiven regardless if we ask for forgiveness or not? I also assume you are referring to both believers and unbelievers because those who crucified Christ were non-believers. Am I correct?
Renegadetory, the Father instantly forgave those who arguably committed the worst sin in human history when Jesus asked him on the cross. Do you believe that?
So if this sin was forgiven unconditionally as an act of grace requiring no repentance or action on the part of those guilty, why do you suppose to draw a difference between this sin and the multitude of minor sins that cannot harm Jesus and at most offend his sensibilities?
Besides which, it's not a case of being instantly forgiven when someone sins. There was one sacrifice that forgave all sin past, present and future. Your sin that you will commit tomorrow was forgiven 2000 years ago before you could ever have asked.
Did the prodigal son get a chance to ask forgiveness from his Father? Did His Father demand that he wash the stench of swine filth from his body before He embraced His son?
Of course he didn't have the chance to ask for forgiveness, but he was already sorry. Just as when we pray, God already knows what we need before for even ask.
If everyone is under a continual state of forgiveness, what motivation does a person have to seek out a relationship with Christ? What is the point of Christ's instruction to us to love one another, to turn the other cheek? What would be the point if everything is cool with Christ? This is what I am struggling to understand.
Has it occurd to you that repentance may not just be done in our life time, but at judgment time as well? Remember how Christ judged the sinning adulterouse and now read Heb 1:3.
I know my sins are forgiven and that all sins are forgiven yet the love of God still motivates me to seek my heavenly Father? Or does fear of punishment motivate you to seek a relationship with Him our Lord and God?
Yes, I agree with you that repentance may occur at the judgement because it states in the book of Revelation that the books are opened, including the Book of Life. This tells me that they will have a chance to accept Christ, even after death.
Fear of punishment does not motivate me to have a relationship with the Lord. I do not believe that people are tortured for an eternity for their sins. To the best of my knowledge, the only reference to anyone burning in the Lake of Fire is Satan, but even then, there is scripture that indicates he will be destroyed, so if Satan doesn't burn forever, why on earth would God punish people in this way?
When I accepted Christ as my saviour, I was baptized (age 18) and essentially joined into a covenant with Him that I would serve Him until I die, no matter what. I chose this because I knew that without Christ I was lost, that it was my sins that killed Him on the cross and I wished to sit at the table with Him in His kingdom. My motivation is wanting to please Him, to grow in knowledge of His will and do it, and to grow closer to Him (as in depending on Him more and depending less on my own understanding) in all things.
If we are talking about the book of revelations, we are talking about a book of symbols that at the time after it was written, only those who read it understood its message. Satan as I understand it is not a being, but our carnal nature. Our carnal adamic nature is the ememy of God. Myself being a preterist when it comes to this book sees it as a final warning to the Jews in Judea to repent and excep Christ as their messiah before the coming wrath that ended their religious system, daily sacrifice, the old covenant and blessings from God as Christ spoke about in the parable of the rich man and lazerus.
I'm curious, what convinced you that Satan was our carnal nature instead of an actual being?
The Jews sacrificial system is from the law, which as from God and was instituted as a means of pointing the way to Christ who would be the ultimate sacrifice.
Why would God have wrath only towards the Jews for not accepting Jesus as the Son of God and not for anyone else, especially in the here and now? Was it because they retained the knowledge of God's laws and therefore should understand and recognize the Christ so they were without excuse?
If satan is this evil being, why is it written in Jer 17:9 that the human heart is most deceitful above all things (satan)?
As for God,s wrath on Judea, it is written in a number of books that she is a prostitute and in Malachi, God tells us that He will put her under His judgment of fire. The Jews followed many idols and commited great evil, while at the same time would not share God with the gentiles. John told them to repent in Matt 3 for the day is at hand (Not 2000 years later). Matt 3:10 The Ax (Roman occupation of Judea) is at the root (Jerusalem) of the trees (Jews Isaiah 60:21) and any tree (Jew) that does not produce good fruit (repent and recieve their messiah Yehushua) will be cut down (killed) and thrown into the fire (God's wrath AD70). The parable of the rich man and Lazerus in Luke 16 testafies to this judgment.
I just want to thank you before I forget, for your patience with me for all the questions that I ask. I really appreciate your responses and the opportunity to understand your point of view and what you believe.
I have to step out for a few hours but I will respond to your post when I return.
Satan is also described by Jesus as the father of lies. When speaking to the Jews He said "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:44
How can they be the father of themselves or their own evil nature? That doesn't make sense in the context that Jesus is speaking.
What about the scripture Luke 22:3 when it said that Satan entered Judas?
Or further in the chapter when Jesus spoke to Peter and told Him that "Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat" (verse 31)?
When Jesus was casting out demons in Luke chapter 11 beginning in verse 14 and was accused of casting out demons through Beelzebub or as the ruler of demons, if Satan does not exist and is only a manifestation of our heart's evil desires, why then did Christ not correct them by stating that such a being does not exist but is only our sinful nature?
I also want to add that I agree that our carnal nature is enmity against God. We must strive to overcome the desires of our flesh as part of our walk with Christ and seek to live in the spirit. But I don't agree that because our carnal nature is corrupt that it therefore must mean an evil being such as Satan cannot exist. If anything, it is our carnal nature that Satan's targets because it is our weakness and uses these weaknesses against us.
Renegadetory, it might help to understand the Jewish, and therefore Jesus' view of satan. A satan is an angel of The Lord who's purpose is to oppose men, test them, and to accuse them before God, and thereby keep them in a state where they must face up to their sin. This Satan never operates by its own agenda, but is in full submission to God.
The devil being a representation of our carnal nature makes sense in the verses you quote. Jesus accused the Pharisees of following their carnal natures, or yetzer hara, the evil inclination or impulse within us. In this case it is lying and murdering. When 'satan entered Judas' it was a case of Judas giving in to his yetzer hara, his own selfish desires.
Jesus never cast out any demons, he cured people of physical and mental illnesses. Now because the people attributed these conditions to imaginary demons, they thought they needed deliverance in order to be healed; their faith in Jesus' ability to heal hinged on their belief he delivered people from demons. Suppose Jesus corrected them and told them demons do not exist, they would have said "this Jesus cannot heal us, he doesn't even believe demons exist, LOL". They would have been like unbelieving people from Nazareth which because of lack of belief meant Jesus could do few miracles there.
Take the scene where a man lowered through a roof on a bed believed his sickness was a result of sin. Jesus knew it wasn't, but this man needed to believe he was forgiven before he could believe for healing. So Jesus goes along with it for the sake of the man's faith. So it was with those who need to believe they were delivered before they had faith to be healed.
Thank you DH, I couldn"t of answered it any better. But I am still waiting to hear renegadetory's answer to the verse of Jer 17:9. She has yet to answer that before she can expect an answer to any of her questions.
Interesting - I had never thought of God's "wants" in quite that way. For God to "want" anything, and not have it as soon as the want manifested itself, He would have to be masochistic, denying Himself that want when it could so easily be granted.
The inescapable conclusion is that He wants people to burn in Hell, He wants people to starve and children to be abused. He wants everything that happens (or else is that masochist mentioned). A conundrum.
Universalism is a true fact. But everyone doesn’t need to know it! After death EVERYONE returns to where we came from whether we accept this or not.
I believe that if everyone did know this, IT WOULD BE A BAD THING. This is hidden between the lines in the story of the flood. In the beginning God said LET ”US” make man in our image. And WE did. And we brought with us all the knowledge we had before entered this physical realm. Because of this … the world was unfit to live in. The story of the flood depicts a do-over so to speak. From that point on, we left all prior knowledge behind at birth.
And then we have the story of the tower of Babble. It doesn’t matter whether the tower actually existed or not. I’m not talking about just languages being scrambled up but the ability of understanding each other in many ways. When ALL of mankind is able to understand each other completely, anything is possible. (THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING)
When we continue to fuss and fight about the little things we are taking our eyes off what is really going on. We don’t really see the forest for the trees.
SOooo If universalism is true, NO MATTER WHAT? The concept does not have a need for universal understanding. Quite the opposite.
It is not the teachings which are important but the behavioral changes which result.
It doesn’t matter which denomination we belong to that is important, but each and everyones behavior is important to society as a whole. When we watch the ant too intently .... we don't see how large the mound is getting.
I very, very highly doubt that prehistoric people with minimal knowledge of science could have ever built a tower that reaches into space without:
A. Everyone dying hideous deaths
B. The tower collapsing under its own weight
C. Requiring a foundation larger than the Earth itself
D. Tools more complicated than a hammer and chisel
Your statement is correct; but just maybe ??? you are looking at the ant (details of the story) and not seeing (the mound) the conclusions the story is suposed to bring us to?
I now know what you mean Jerami. It makes since now.
Not saying that I am on the right path; but it seems so to me, that universal salvation is the right answer, however accepting this to be true is just the first step of a new journey or quest for answers.
And in the final conclusion .... it seems to me that when our journey is completed we will have come full circle, understanding and believing as a child would. but that is just my thoughts on the matter.
EDIT ..Gotta go to the store and then to see the Dr. .... see Ya later.
It is not whether or not God stops loving part of His Creation. The issue is whether or not God is a truly Just God. If He is, then, ouside of salvation through the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus, Son of God, on the Cross which was a fulfillment of The Fathers need for Justice to be served for the crime of sin. You are still condemned. And Gods need for Justice, because He is a Just God demands recompense. Emotionality has nothing to do with it. But, If God is NOT a Just God, then what was the whole point of Christ?
For me, the crux of the issue is not whether or not God can or cannot, will or will not save everyone. The issue for me is over whether salvation is universal, meaning that Christ died for all and that all sin no longer exists and that we are all going to heaven in the end, OR that Christ died so that all that believe in Him may be saved from an eternity of damnation. For me, the conditional clause applies. It is scriptural. Jn. 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not die but have life everlasting."
Very well spoken. I believe that if I did not have Him I would already be dead of spirit. And to me, that death would be hell. I am just a pompous ass enough to feel sorry for others.
Rom 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 14:11It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
Concerning the Prodigal Son, no. He did not demand that his son clean himself before embracing him. But, he did demand that he be taken afterward and cleaned and dressed in the finer cloths. That says to me, that while Christ accepts you and even embraces you at where you are when you come to him, that you cannot remain there. That lackadaisical attitude toward grace and forgiveness is why the Church is in the state that it is in. He takes us in our filth and cleans us. Takes us out of our rags and dresses us in fine cloths (takes us out of sin and clothes us in righteousness.)
He did not demand he be cleaned... “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. The prodigal son's return is symbolic for us all when we depart this life and return to our Father. The older brother is symbolic for us if we were not sent out into the world. We would not have the appreciation of God's love and forgiveness. The reason why the church is in the state it is in now, is because of its belief system and false doctrines.
I stand corrected. I believe that it is assumed that the Father had him cleaned before the best robe was put on him. I think though that the parable was a an example of our fall into sin. And the subsequent actions concerning salvation and redemption through Christ. I also see how eerily the older brothers actions concerning the returning brother not only mirror the actions of those of the promise (Jews), but also those that have already been saved and have a "relationship" with Christ.
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If it would be right for God to punish all men eternally, would it not be wrong for Him not to do it?
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