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If God exists.......

  1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
    tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago

    If God exists and he in fact does interfere with our lives why does he let bad things happen to good people? Why does he let people suffer who don't deserve to? Is this one big ass game to him or is there something that we can not understand in the works here? Maybe he doesn't interfere at all, or maybe.....maybe he does not exist? Don't think negatively of my due to my thoughts as of now I believe in God. I am just asking the question that people are afraid to ask.

    1. autumn18 profile image67
      autumn18posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Your thoughts are logical and would not lead me to think negatively of you. I think these questions and lack of satisfactory answers are part of what makes me have a hard time believing in an intervening deity. Why let some suffer so horribly if it can be stopped? Either a God can do something and chooses not to or a God exists and can't interfere or a God doesn't exist.

      1. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Luke 16:19-31

        New International Version (NIV)
        The Rich Man and Lazarus

        19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

        22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

        25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

        27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

        29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

        30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

        31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

        1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
          tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yea, nice story.  You got any proof other than words?  I'd believe a man rising from the dead, but I'd have to see it with my own eyes.  We as a human race have evolved from the past, we don't just believe every story read or we hear.

        2. Zelkiiro profile image84
          Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Abraham's an effing idiot.

    2. SwordofManticorE profile image74
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Dont flatter yourself. This question has been asked many times before you did.

    3. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I just wrote a hub that once again addresses that good and bad things happen to all ppl, saved or unsaved. It's called Money doesn't solve money problems. We are all on the same earth, spinning at the same pace. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That bad things happen to the just and unjust, the righteous and unrighteous, doesn't explain why God allows it to be that way.  Or does it?

        1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
          SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Why do you care?

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I'm interested in how people answer that question myself.  Psycheskinner gave one answer, but there are others as well - the red herring of free will being necessary, for example.

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
              SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Your only interest is pissing off Christians, nothing more.

              1. psycheskinner profile image80
                psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Um, I am interested in how people resolve this dilemma.  Perhaps you would like to engage with that in a spirit of mutual understanding rather than suggest people shouldn't care or are trolling--which I don't see.  I see people here who do care and actually want to understand how other people see the world.

                For example, if this seemingly arbitrary suffering has a purpose, what might it be?  If we are incapable of understanding this purpose on earth is that understanding provided in heaven?

                1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
                  SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I dont!

                  1. psycheskinner profile image80
                    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    That seems like a bit of a dog in the manger attitude to me.  Non-interest should logically lead to non-participation. Unless you feel there is some virtue in actively suppressing this discussion, and if so I would be curious as to what that reason is?

                2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
                  tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Basically she just said, "if you didn't care you wouldn't be in here.  So stop the trolling and open your damn mind."

                  As for your first response Psyche I like your last sentence and when you put it with Autumns theory we might have an answer.

                  1. Either God exists and we can not understand these things while alive in earth or...

                  2. There is no God and there are no consequences for our actions other than those we receive on earth.

              2. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                If a Christian gets PO'd when asked to explain their belief, that's a Christian (or anyone else) that needs to be avoided.

                1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
                  SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  A Christian doesnt need to explain his beliefs to be rideculed.

                  1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
                    tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    When you beat down all walls and get to the core of any religion the answer to these kinds of questions will lie in the belief of "blind faith".  I do not have that.  I want answers.  Until then neither I nor anyone who thinks like me can be wrong on any level.  On Earth or in the afterlife.  We can not be blamed for living in 2013 and being logical thinkers who are not quick to believe what we read in a book that was written.....well we actually don't know when it was written and we don't know who wrote it.  What we do know is that the Romans ruled the world for many years, so I am sure they had a large influence on what is in the GOOD BOOK

                  2. Hidan Leif profile image61
                    Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Matthew 28:16-20

                    New International Version (NIV)
                    The Great Commission

                    16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

              3. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I don't find that answer particularly offensive, and I'm a Christian.  Maybe his intention was to attempt to answer a question in good faith (pardon the pun).  Not everyone who doesn't believe in God is out to sabotage or humiliate or anger those who do.

                1. SwordofManticorE profile image74
                  SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Alot of them are here in these forum hubs. You cant denie it.

                  1. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't say there weren't those folks here.  I said not everyone.  If it's impossible to delineate between some and all, and we react the same way to all despite markedly different behavior from some, that's really our problem, not theirs.

            2. Chris Neal profile image85
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It's no red herring.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Of course it is - to an omnipotent God there are no intermediate steps or requirements necessary to achieve the final goal.  Not bad things happening, not eternal torture (or fear of it) and not free will.  The biggest reason it's a red herring, though, is that lots of bad things happen that do not come from the free will of the one suffering.  The starving infant, the person losing their home to a tornado, etc.

                1. Chris Neal profile image85
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No, it's not. You're subscribing to the fallacy that if God can do anything then He must do EVERYTHING. It's simply not true. Because if it were, then we really are just robots, doing whatever we're programmed to do.

                  BTW I buried my wife not too many months ago, so if you want to talk about the "suffering of those who didn't choose it" trust me, I have thought about this a great deal more than many in this forum, I daresay. Not all, but many.

                  1. Hidan Leif profile image61
                    Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    well said.

          2. psycheskinner profile image80
            psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Why shouldn't we.  How one answers this question has profound implications in terms of what kind of world we live in.

        2. renegadetory profile image94
          renegadetoryposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, last time I checked God does not exist according to your observations, so what difference would her answer make to you? I'm guessing none.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You know, not everyone comes to these forums to regale anyone that will listen with their belief system.

            Some of us come to learn.  About differing beliefs, about people and how they think - how they come to conclusions as much as what those conclusions are.  Knowing what you believe is pretty worthless information unless you can explain why you hold those beliefs.

            Why do you come to the forums?  To learn how and what others believe or to simply pound out your own beliefs with no reasoning or "why" ever offered?

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I don't see anything in that hub that addresses why good and bad things happen to all people, I read a bunch of "you must love God" stuff in there along with some complaining about not having any money and despising those who do.

    4. Chris Neal profile image85
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      This is a question  that has been asked since before the Bible was written, and is asked and discussed within the Bible.

      I know that those who put their faith in Jesus will see Heaven, even if they've had horrible crummy lives here on Earth. Those who don't will not, even if they had seemingly teflon lives with all sorts of riches and whatever here on Earth.

      I know for a lot of people that is insufficient. And I understand that. I've had to wrestle with that on a very personal basis. My wife died recently and I don't think anyone who knew her would argue that if one member of the family had to die it shouldn't have been her. In fact she was probably the strongest believer in our family. Yet she suffered horribly for decades with disease and eventually succumbed to cancer. It was the most horrible thing I've ever gone through, taking care of her while she slipped away, and I would not wish it on my worst enemy. My kids are pretty ripped up, especially my middle son. And yeah, we ask "Why?" But I know that she is in Heaven with Jesus, and I can't say that about all the people I know who died who were believers. I hope to someday see her again.

      She told our daughter that one day they would dance in Heaven.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Why? Why can't you say other believers go to heaven?

        1. Chris Neal profile image85
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Because I take what Jesus said very literally, and He pointedly said on more than one occasion that many who called themselves believers were not going to be in Heaven.

          I should clarify. That does not mean I feel free to judge people. I'm sure that if I were to indulge in such a practice and I still got to Heaven, I would be very surprised at who made it and who didn't. I take that as my cue to be more careful about what I say and do. I will not be judged for anyone else and no one else will be judged for me. I am responsible for myself.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus was said to have said many things that never happened. Prayers can't move mountains and the end of times did not come within his generation.

            If you don't judge others who do you know who is doing the right things. Maybe the Catholics and only the Catholics get in. Although just saying only some get in seems silly to me. Do all the muslims not make it in because they were born to muslims?

            1. Jerami profile image79
              Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I was always under the impression that there are many poor or incorrect translations in the English bibles and this instance concerning “moving mountains” would one of these poor translations. Possibly something like “faith can do GREAT things”  or “ faith can do things that you would think would otherwise be impossible” 
              I also believe that when scripture speaks of the end of days, they are speaking about the end of days for that Hebrew Nation which Jesus was talking to. That Hebrew Nation did come to their end of Days when that group of people were scattered to the four corners of the Roman Empire which began in 135 AD and was completed before 150 AD when there wasn’t a single Hebrew to be found in all of Israel and Judea.

              As for judging others??   By whatever measure you judge another so shall ye also be judged.  I think it would be best to not be a hanging Judge, but to be an extremely fair judge and honest judge or better yet, Don’t judge at all.  That is the measure of judgment that I want .. not at all.

              When we put down these physical bodies everything that happened to us in this plane will be of little consequence.

              1. MindExplorer1 profile image60
                MindExplorer1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                "When we put down these physical bodies everything that happened to us in this plane will be of little consequence."


                What other plane/planes exist there?

            2. Chris Neal profile image85
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              The question is not, "Can prayers move mountains?"

              It's, "Why have we never seen this happen?"

              Personally, I don't know the answer to that one. Many people have off-the-cuff remarks ready, but I'm not one of them.

              I'm not one to say that ONLY Baptists or Reformed or Lutheran or Catholics will get in. Jesus' admonishment to "Judge not lest you be judged," although meant for the priests and teachers of the law who set such impossibly strict standards for getting into Heaven that no one could meet them, is still valid. It's not my job to decide who will get into Heaven, that is for God alone. I just need to be doing my best to make sure that I'm one of them.

            3. Chris Neal profile image85
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              At the risk of sounding liberal, I think that a great many people get hung up on church governance as the yardstick by which they will be judged. And that's a huge mistake.

              Now obviously you can't have it all ways. I'm not a universalist, as we all know. But if someone is a universalist, I don't think that all by itself would keep them out of Heaven. And certainly by the same token, the need to believe in a Righteous Judge (which the Bible clearly indicates God to be) should not preclude that He is a Loving Father (which the Bible also clearly indicates.)

              And yeah, as a Prod I don't see how reliance on tradition can actually supersede what the Bible says. I'm a Sola Scriptura guy. Nevertheless, I don't think that someone who actually puts their faith in Jesus, even if they also pray to St. Anthony, will truly be denied entry.

              All that having been said, the one thing I try to keep in mind is that it's not my job to judge. God has reserved that for Himself. Yes, we need to differentiate between good and bad here on Earth, which is not always that easy, but we don't decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't.

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Ha ha ha ha. Good one Chris. Wouldn't want to sound liberal now would we.

                1. Chris Neal profile image85
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  After my carefully built image as an arch-conservative, you mean?

                  Seriously though, Calvinists are not supposed to be liberal. I think if that happens we get our TULIP card burned at the door and immediately married off to a Methodist in Minnesota. By a female pastor.

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                    riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I will tell you a story from Mahabharata.
                    One day a brahman and a sudra was brought to the court for similar crime and the court teacher asked the eldest of the kaurava and pandava Princes, to test them, about the punishment they would give. (Brahmans belong to the highest caste and was well respected while sudras are of low caste- menials at that time). The kaurava prince said that as the crimes being the same the punishment should also be the same (human standard)(then the standard was, not punishing or punishing lightly a brahmin while heavy punishment for sudras for the same crime) while the pandava prince said that the brahman should get a higher punishment for he knew what he was doing and he should have acted as a model for low castes. The divine standard- higher the power and responsibility higher the punishment.
                    So compare this to the god of Bible, has he ever acted anything more than like a despotic maniac? For children eating fruit he gives death, then forgetting him for a few minutes he institute barbaric punishment and he prescribes barbaric punishment for crimes (an eye for an eye) then suddenly without explanation a volte-face asking everyone to love others which he himself do not follow (whoever "speak" against his alter ego- the ghost will get hell).
                    Being a god at least one should expect consistency instead he act like human despot whose mood and action no one can predict hence gave no idea how to please.
                    So what is the "god standard" to to which the human standard can be compared?

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                    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    lol

                    Chris, you're a hoot!  I love it that you keep your sense of humor during all of these discussions.  You're a good person.

            4. Hidan Leif profile image61
              Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              There is a great amount of difference in the task of using good judgement and standing in judgement of another person. Once you place yourself in a position of judge over another person you are basically taking responsibility for your discernment of that person and responsibility for the effects of that discernment. However we use judgement every day. If you don't judge the right distance to a plank of wood it might just be far too close to your head than you would like. Just remember that our use of language was not the contemporary use of the language of the day when the bible was written. You have to add some common and sometimes uncommon sense to understand what is trying to be conveyed.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Save me a seat by the fire, Chris, we'll play checkers. smile

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I saw where rad man pulled his comment out to question it, and I was shocked that it was made. I am sorry for your loss, but I have to note that this is one of the primary problems with this type of belief. Seriously. We sit in judgment of the living and make each other's lives miserable in the process. And then we judge the dead? That's a heavy burden. Condemning so many so callously and out of hand. I'm shocked you don't understand how alien this behavior would be to a loving God. Does the need to ease your own mind outweigh the needs of others? Must the idea of God be personalized to the detriment of others?

        I understand the pain of losing a loved one in this reality, but I can't imagine my loved one's being more special than any other; to any but myself. It's difficult to follow how anyone could make a statement such as the one you made, concerning other people's situation after death. How do you resolve such a stance to kindness and love?

        1. Chris Neal profile image85
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          a) I think you need to read subsequent comments I made before 'judging' whether I really 'judge.'


          b) I've said before that I believe in a Loving God but I also believe in a Just God. If you're going to preach Universalism (even Christian Universalism) to me then you need to produce some detailed documentation. Jesus was not shy in talking about the horrible end that awaits those who don't follow Him.

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Chris, if you believe in heaven and you think someone didn't make it you are judging the dead. I don't see any other way to view your statement.

            1. Chris Neal profile image85
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Let's just say I wonder about it. As a human I'm as skeptical of foxhole conversions as anyone, but as a believer I have to accept Jesus at His word that if you truly believe and repent, you'll make it in. And I've seen people who were believers do things I couldn't reconcile, but then if someone were to examine my life at such close range they would say the same of me.

              I have my moments like anyone else, but I don't decide who made it and who didn't.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Where did Jesus say if you repent and believe you'll make it into heaven?

                1. Hidan Leif profile image61
                  Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  New International Version (©2011)
                  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
                  and also...
                  2 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

                  35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

                  36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

                  38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

                  39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

                  40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

                  42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

                  43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

                2. Hidan Leif profile image61
                  Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Matthew 4:17

                  17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

                  Luke 13:3

                  3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

                  Mark 1:14-15

                  14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

                  15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. [Repent, and then believe. Not vice versa]

        2. Chris Neal profile image85
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Also, although it's true that in most cases thinking your loved one was "more special than any others" would be an emotional response (which, in the face of grief I don't care if the person was a documented ogre, I would never say to the survivor "I can't imagine thinking your loved one more special than any others,") among those who actually knew Lisa there is no opposition, she was very special. And it's her strong belief in Jesus that convinces me that she is with Him, not her specialness as a human being.

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I am sorry to hear about your wife.

            1. Chris Neal profile image85
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you very much.

      3. tHErEDpILL profile image87
        tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That sucks man.  This is what I am talking about.  She was the biggest believer and still suffered.  WTF.  That is not fair.  I don't mean to light a fire under you Chris, but you have to keep an open mind to the fact that she might not dance with anyone in heaven because that may be a fantasy.  This is the type of stuff that pisses me off.  she was probably a good person and this happens to her.  She suffers.  Isn't that why Jesus supposedly died?  Didn't he suffer for all of us.  Or was that just  the earliest version of Superman before he traded he cut his hair and traded the robe and sandals for a cape and red boots?

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          According to the bible, Jesus didn't die so that we won't have to. Jesus dies so that those who believe in him will go to heaven when they are die regardless of how much they suffer..

        2. Chris Neal profile image85
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I understand what you're saying but Jesus didn't die to alleviate physical suffering in this life. In fact, He said that if we follow Him there's a good chance we will suffer more. He died so that we could be with Him in Heaven, where there will literally be no suffering.

          Is it a fantasy? A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that I've bought into some kind of indoctrination but the fact is that not only did I not grow up in a Christian household, I was really not a Christian at all. I have felt God's hand in my life and felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. Take that any way you want, I certainly don't expect you or anyone else to simply accept it, but it was God who changed my mind. So I had to decide what I do and don't accept in His word. And some things I will admit that I don't understand but I do know there's a Heaven.

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      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      With all due respect, no one has ever been afraid to ask those questions, especially in these forums.  But kudos to you for choosing a topic that will get you a ton of attention from forum participants.

    6. aravindb1982 profile image93
      aravindb1982posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The blatant self-promotion... it burns my eyes.

        It makes me want to go to his hub and post a link to one of my barely related hubs in his comment box...

        Edit: I visited his hub... amazingly, it too burnt my eyes.

        1. aravindb1982 profile image93
          aravindb1982posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Deleted

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You know what, you're absolutely right.

            It was unnecessary and I'm sorry. Curt is kinda what I do, in the future, though, I'll try to save it for those who are a bit more deserving of it.

            Just a heads up though... It is kinda frowned upon to link to your own hub in the forums except if you are asking for help with making/editing/improving it.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I didn't bother to click on it.

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Ditto

    7. divineadriano profile image75
      divineadrianoposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      God exist and so evil does too. In the bible, it is not only God that controls our lives, there's also the presence of evil who's there to ruin and test our faith. Maybe God really do have the power to go against the evil's will, but He wont do it coz He wants us to see the power of Him in our lives, just like what He did to
      Job.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Well, if he wants us to go through what Job did then that would make him the evil one.

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          riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          In a court the judgement is only after hearing the arguments of both sides. But the theists judge only after hearing god's side though they say one shouldn't judge. I am wondering why Mr. Satan fail to argue his case even though all the lawyers are on his side. wink

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Well, some churches (that I have attended) actually teach that Satan pleads his case against you in the courts of the holy. This is where the judgment comes in at. Your life is presented as evidence. Satan pulls up all the wrongs you have done, but Christ steps in and basically reminds God that one believes in him and that he died so that we can get in.. Based on all of the information, God renders the final Judgment.

            (NOTE- I stated that this is what some churches I have been to do. I did not state whether I believe this or not. Quite frankly, I dunno what happens once my eyes close for good other than the fact that I will be dead and I will know nothing more on this earth, and yes I am aware of where some of you stand here. I have no proof of anything)

        2. Hidan Leif profile image61
          Hidan Leifposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I kind of get your point from a Child's perspective if a parent scolds them for doing a bad thing they will often scream back,"But that is not fair!" I don't think going through hard times makes God evil no more than scolding the child makes the parent evil. Also, it was not God that did those things to Job. It was Satan trying to make Job renounce God. You see that is what Satan wishes for us to do today. He wants us to say "There is no God." If Satan can make that happen then He feels like he has made some type of victory of his complete and total defeat, but here is the thing. Satan has limits to how far he can go. Those limits are set by God and God will in the end be the ultimate judge of who is faithful and true, not Satan. It is like God is the father you always needed but sometimes did not wish for. He saves us by warning us that the fire is very hot and will burn us, but a lot of us put our hands in the fire anyway.

    8. Maricarmjolo profile image85
      Maricarmjoloposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I have read a short story and this is how your question was answered..
      Why do you think a lot of people are not properly groomed?
      Does it mean that beauticians or barbers do not exist?
      Beauticians and barbers do exist. Those ungroom people do not go to salon to consult and let themselves be groomed.. Same as God... We just need to consult him and lay our lives on his own hands .

      Also, in my opinion.. Why there are poor people? Most of them are having a vice like playing in casino.
      Or they are too lazy to work...

      Why they are sick? They are using cigarettes and eating food that are dangerous to their health.
      Not following God have consequences.

    9. PhoenixV profile image80
      PhoenixVposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Man's greatest attributes are only possible through diversity. Or, because its fair.

    10. Claire Evans profile image89
      Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Suffering is a by-product of free will.  He has all the power in the world in the life of those who devote their lives to Him but cannot interfere in the lives of those who have chosen this world over Him.  And merely not making Him more important that anything else empowers the devil for the first commandment is to love the Lord first.  If that is done, Satan has power.  A desire to promote oneself and trample over everyone else empowers Satan.  So now you can see that most of the world empowers Satan; directly or indirectly.  What is the result of Satan's power so conveniently handed to him? Suffering. 

      So the blame goes to God when it should go to us.  Maybe we should do something about the suffering.  Maybe we should ask God to use us vessels to spread peace. 

      Why did God watch Jesus suffer? Why does He let Himself suffer? I've asked that question to Him once during the darkest hour of my life.  I thought He enjoyed seeing me suffering because He did nothing.  Only later did I realize that was far from the truth.  Without suffering comes no spiritual refinement.  How can one offer comfort to another when they have never suffered?

    11. Zubair Ahmed profile image78
      Zubair Ahmedposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      God does exist - the reason why He puts up with our self-inflicted pain is because He cares.

      This life is a test and going through the ups/downs in life is what makes us stronger and allows us to get closer to God.

      e.g. to become the top athlete one needs to go through much pain and training.  In a similar way to get heaven you need to prove yourself to God.

      Do you really believe and obey or are you pulling a fast one.  Going through tribulation in life filters out those that simply deny GOD, to those that accept everything in life happens for a reason and that is God.

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, you only believe God exists. There is no evidence one way or the other. It is all pure speculation.



        That is completely disconnected from reality, unless of course, the tens of thousands who starve to death every day are getting closer to God because they're dead.



        One need only do nothing but give up their entire intellect and hand it over to blissful ignorance to prove themselves to God.



        Another disconnect from reality that insults every single person who has ever lost a loved one to cancer, disease, etc.

    12. Max Makhija1 profile image60
      Max Makhija1posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well  I am a Hindu, 52 years of age ! According to me, there is a very important relationship, with what you sow is what you reap. God as you know made unlimited Earth, Water, Air, Resources for us. Mankind made money, made divisions, we got equated by Money, life could have been made simpler are more benevolent, but people became more selfish, more cruel, this created shortages in an Abundant world. So, the people got caught in a race that they created. Hence what you see are problems coming out of  Mankind's version of  Life.

    13. LoisRyan13903 profile image73
      LoisRyan13903posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      As a Christian I honestly cannot give an answer.  Only God knows why he allows things to happen and one day he will reveal his reasons to you.

      1. theuppermovement profile image61
        theuppermovementposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Let me give that example:
        Lets say you are running a marathon, and before the start of the race God declared you, because of his knowledge and wisdom, to be the winner of the marathon. What you are asking is why does not God put you in a car, or a jet plane, and take you to the finish line?
        The answer is because that is against the rules of marathon running, not fair, and would not help you become a better runner.
        What is the meaning of victory if it is not earned? Where is the wisdom in driving you to the finish line?
        But God is cheering you on, handing you water, and yelling words of encouragement and support. He had provided you with the training, the shoes, the cloth, the knowledge, and helps you more than you can possibly imagine; he simply will not drive you or fly you to the finish line.

    14. theuppermovement profile image61
      theuppermovementposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The answer is amazing, and it will free you in every way possible; you simply do not know enough of the facts. But it is also complicated because you must have the correct information:
      Let me give a small example, or better yet, let me tell you what happened:
      In the most powerful gathering that has ever been held and that represented the three different kinds of creation and God almighty, we witness the birth of humanity. And God had created humanity very weak. But as soon as humanity was made it was declared the ultimate winner, and the best of all other creations, and the most powerful entities under God were commanded to bow down to the new weak creation. And there were two different types of creation present. The angels of God are made by God never to disobey, and what God designs does not malfunction. Everything in creation must follow the design that was made for it.

      We were designed different, and so was our enemy. The two of us-unlike the angels-were given the power of choice and it is the choices that we have made that brought us where we are now: asleep at the wheel and heading for the cliff. Now let me tell you about your enemy: your enemy-like us-has the power of choice and he has lived in the company of God with the angels for thousands or millions of years and had achieved so much knowledge, stature and power that is truly unimaginable and when God commanded him, the highly powerful highly knowledgeable, to bow down to us the weakest, his arrogance did not allow him to obey God, he refused to recognize us as the winners-the best of all creations. He did not have the knowledge that God had; that although mankind was created very weak it is the potential and destiny of mankind to one day defeat its number one enemy, and emerge victorious. Our enemy refused to give us the respect that we deserve so he became to us the fiercest of enemies. And as soon as the fight started he took us out of heaven started killing us and turning us against each other, and brought us to where he has us asleep at the wheel and heading for the cliff, and we are powerless to do anything about it.

      Of course the answer to you is that you are strong and you are capable of  defeating your enemy ON YOUR OWN, because God already declared you the winner at the moment of your birth (Humanity's birth), and helping either side is against the rules. Does that make some sense?
      The reason bad things are happening is because we are missing some crucial facts:
      1: Your enemy is waging war on you, and has done so since humanity's birth. He does not want you to be the winner that God had declared you to be.
      2. God is your side, helps you more than you know and had already declared you the winner of everything, but he trusts you enough to defeat your enemy on your own. The Rules will not be broken.

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        First: What makes you think that atheists just don't know enough of the facts? 

        Second: can you demonstrate or prove that ANY of this is true?

        There are lot of stories.  A LOT of stories.  They all have the same amount of proof - namely - NONE.

      2. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        It's nice to have a common enemy wether it's real or not is irrelevant to those attempting to control the masses.

    15. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      In terms of suffering caused by other people, traditional Christian theology suggests that a world without suffering, where people are forced to do good, would be less-good than a world with suffering where people choose to do good. In terms of suffering caused by nature, Christian theology suggests that original sin put the harmony between humanity and nature out of whack., hence the disharmony between the two until such time as it is corrected.

      If god did exist and did intervene in our lives, I don't believe there is currently any way of knowing, independently of god, whether those interventions are "one big ass game", malevolent in nature, or benevolent. How could we possible make that determination? What frame of reference would we use?

  2. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    They typical answer to this is "mysterious ways"--that is, the suffering has some higher purpose we are unable to understand.

  3. janesix profile image60
    janesixposted 3 years ago

    You should have taken the blue pill...

    1. Chris Neal profile image85
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No. The red pill is better.

    2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      LOL.  The Red Pill is hard to swallow.  Trust me, some days I just want to live in the fantasy world and pretend I don't know the things I know, but its too late.  Can't go back.

  4. kmbacon profile image60
    kmbaconposted 3 years ago

    I believe that the reason good people suffer is because there is a Devil and he is the reason for all suffering not God.I believe that things happen for a reason and only God knows the reason.We all have to go through trials and tribulations thats just life..I know that God is real because he has been there for me all my life .If it wasnt for God I would have never gotten through the things I have..I also believe that we are living in the end times and the people that remain are going to have to go through a lot worse so if the good people get taken home early its a blessing instead of a bad thing.We look at it only for how a loss effects us because we will miss that person,but that person is in a place where there is know more sickness or sorrow only happiness and that is really not a bad thing.We will get a chance to see that person again when we go home.God gives us a free will and he will not go against that will.I believe sometimes people choose to giveup and want to go home and God will never go against what we want in  are hearts.

    1. psycheskinner profile image80
      psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The situation with the devil includes it's own questions like the 'necessity of free will' point raised earlier.

      Given that God is omnipotent the Devil must be permitted to exist for a reason (?), such as to provide humans with the option to be evil--with the corollary that some people experience suffering through no fault of their own.

      1. Chris Neal profile image85
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I think many people experience suffering through no fault of their own. In many ways, it's what we do with the suffering we experience that defines who we are.

    2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So kmbacon.  God saves you a bunch of times, but let Chris Neal's wife suffer for a decade?  What makes you better?  And that's pretty f'd up if you ask me.  I hope this God a good explanation for these types of things.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        A lot of people cast blame until something happens to them and then they switch to God testing them.

  5. kmbacon profile image60
    kmbaconposted 3 years ago

    From the surface to me and you it may seem to look that people experience suffring ,but I believe God will never allow us to bear mor than we can handle.I think he steps in before this happens.The reason for all of the suffering in our world is are own fault we will be are own demise .The world has gone against the principles of the bible allowing men to marry men and so on.God loved us so much that he sacrificed his own son to die painfully on the cross  so that we would not be bound to hell.He knew this was the only way.We are all sinners and incapable of being perfect. .

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So...if god won't give you more suffering than you can handle, does that mean that thousands of children can handle dying of starvation or cancer?  Satan is only allowed to carry out suffering with gods permission - see job.  It was god that made the bet with him in the.first place.

      Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with gay marriage.  Your Bible says all gay people should be killed, but that was over 6000 years ago, and I don't see you running around executing gays - unless you live in uganda.

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Where does the bible say that ALL Gay People should be killed. Honest question...
        I'm not aware of any such verses.

        1. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          It depends on whether or not you wasn't to use the old tranent to justify opposition to homosexuality.

          1. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I do remember the bible saying that A Man lying with a man is an abomination.  But there are many things which is an abomination.  I can be wrong but I don't remember any instruction to kill two gay men unless it was the same chapter that said a man lieing with an animal both of them should be killed.  Don't remember exactly what that verse said.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)[3]

              1. Jerami profile image79
                Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you

              2. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I'll just point this out.  Julie and I have discussed it.  Leviticus was a priestly law.  Meant to be followed only by the Levites (the priestly tribe of Jews in the Old Testament).  It was not intended for the other 11 tribes of Israel, and it was never intended for Gentiles.

                Favorite argument of atheists, but not something that any Christian (unless they are a Jewish turned Christian descended from the Levites) is bound by.

                Just sayin'.

                smile

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Were that the only place where comments were made, you might be able to convince Christianity, as a whole, that they are mistaken in their interpretation. It isn't. Christians have risen above many things written in the Bible which caused discrimination. This issue is another hurdle they'll eventually have to jump.

                  1. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    True, Emile.  I recognize that there are other references to it in scripture, but most of them are references to OT law.  Even in the earliest days of Christianity, it was being taught by Jews, and there are multiple places in the OT where Jesus or God the Father Himself (in Peter's case) points out quite specifically that Jewish laws do not apply to Gentiles. Of course, that could be the modern Christian's way of 'cherry-picking.'  Either way, it makes sense not to apply laws written millenia ago for a specific nation of people to ourselves today, unless we've been specifically commanded by God to do otherwise.

            2. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Leviticus        18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

                  20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You and me are safe then... Poor Elton is a gonner though.

                Maybe that's why so many "Christian" men enjoy lesbian porn.  Nothing wrong with it... it's just the guy gays that deserve to die.

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I always laugh when christians point to this part of Leviticus to condemn homosexuality while remaining willfully ignorant of the other death-sentence crimes in the surrounding chapters.  Leviticus was a holiness code for priests, and was not even intended for the common, jewish people.  Yet people want to pick out laws that are still applicable today while blatantly ignoring the ones they don't like.  Lesbians are evil in the new testament, so while I may not be condemned to death, I'm certainly not considered a good person.  Oh well.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image85
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    "Was not intended for common Jewish people?"

                    That's a completely new one on me. Where did you get that?

                  2. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    So glad you mentioned this...I jumped on it as soon as I saw it.  Where is lesbianism condemned in the NT?  I don't remember ever seeing it?

                2. Chris Neal profile image85
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Even when I was not a Christian (and I was VERY not a Christian) I never understood why guys like to look at that. I just can't fathom it.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I do believe you missed your calling then.  You are apparently far more suited to become a Buddhist monk than a Christian.

                  2. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry to hear that Chris.

                3. Jerami profile image79
                  Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I've started to post comments that addresses this issue.
                  i think I read someplace "the power of life is in the sperm" and another about it being in the blood.
                  My only argument about gay men would be that in my mind it seems to be detrimental for a  mans sperm to be deposited within that organ that is designed to absorb "whatever" directly into the blood stream.
                  It also seems very possible that when a man’s body absorbs sperm into his body, this somehow alters the genetics of the man, and also that this effects the genetics of his of spring "If" he later has any.    There are many things which we do to ourselves that can harm generations to come.
                  I'm not a doctor nor do I know if any of that has any truth,  But it seems to me that it would have to, to some extent.

                      So children’s genetic abnormalities can be caused by the "sins"  of their forefathers.  Not that they are purposefully passed out as punishments, but simply facts of life.
                    I often wondered how all that LSD that was used in the 60s affected the psychological abnormalities that are prevalent in many of the 40 year olds in society today.   
                    Shouldn't anything that we do today that has harmful affects on generations to come be called a sin?
                  It is none of our jobs to pass judgments  ....   I think … no harm no foul

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It makes far more sense to look at illnesses and genetic abnormalities and even homosexuality for that matter as Darwin did. Random genetic changes that propel evolution. If the changes work, they get passed on, if not they don't. We don't need to blame anyone for mistakes made by anyone. I have a cousin with a 7 year old son of in the deep dark middle of a bone marrow transplant, do we need to add guilt to his parents table? Do we tell Chris his wife passing was his fault? Do we tell anyone who has lost a child (my complete sorrow to Melissa and Mo and any others who've lost a child) that it was their doing?

                    The only people who gain are those who do the accusing. It makes their lives make more sense as it confirms that they have done everything right. Until something happens to them, and I've seen when that happens.

              2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
                tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Did the thousands of priests who raped and molested little boys read this before or after they stuck their penises in those young MEN?

      2. Chris Neal profile image85
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What about Romans and Revelations?

        1. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          what about it?  I find it interesting that in Romans, similar to the passover story in Egypt god "turned them over" to homosexuality, like he hardened Pharaoh's heart, when Pharaoh was fully inclined to let the Israelites go, just so god could keep plaguing him and his people.  This is not a topic about homosexuality in the bible.  It's about suffering and sin in the world.  I am fully aware of what Romans says - especially in the context of the passage which specifically relates to idolatry and temple cult prostitution.  It says nothing about a sexual orientation.  Furthermore, I would maintain that if someone was to be born gay and they try to "force" themselves into straight relationships to try to comply with societal or god's laws, THAT is unnatural.  There is nothing unnatural about being gay.  Is it a minority?  Sure.  If it wasn't, the human race would die out.  But the fact of the matter is that all sorts of animals practice some form of homosexuality - even exclusively in some cases - and since animals don't "sin" and they're acting based on their instincts, it would appear to be entirely natural - whether you like it or not.  How many times do you see two male dogs humping each other?  Do you tell them that they're sinning?  Do you stone them to death?  I'm assuming not.  There is a big difference between a committed, monogamous relationship and a same-sex lust fling - especially in the context of idol worship or temple cults, and the research keeps pointing to a combination of nature and nurture which influences homosexuality.  I would maintain that, if your god existed, he would have made me this way.  I had my first crush on a girl when I was in 4th grade.  I was not molested nor did I (at least at that point) have a negative experience with someone of the opposite sex.  Are you really going to tell me that at 9 I consciously made that choice, knowing that I would be mocked, ridiculed, physically assaulted and be called names for the rest of my life?

    2. autumn18 profile image67
      autumn18posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You say that the suffering in the world is because of humans but also that God can step in and intervene when he wants to. So that's the question, why doesn't he stop children from starving, being abused, getting cancer, etc.? We go through it and "handle it" because we have to.

      1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
        tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        EXACTLY!!!

    3. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      just because I'm currently watching a documentary on Auschwitz, Germany, the Nazi policy and the holocaust, i'm pretty sure that the 8 million people who were exterminated in camps around Europe during WWII would disagree with your assessment.  I'm pretty sure that they DID, in fact, experience a lot more pain, suffering and grief than they could handle - and millions of them died horrible, wasting deaths.  This included men, women and children - Jews, gypsies, children, homosexuals, twins and more.  You're telling me that sin caused this - that these people somehow deserved what they got because they were sinful?  How moral is that?  How moral are you to assert such a detestable, deplorable and indefensible position?

    4. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Tens of thousands of children starve to death every day praying for God to step in with a morsel of food.



      Religions are our demise.



      So, men marrying men is a problem for you?



      Gods can't die, so his son never died, it was all faked to fool everyone.

    5. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You have to be kidding.  Do you know anything about history?  Slaves used to hang from trees (Who the f can handle that).  I do not agree with the, "gives us all we can handle and steps in when its too much crap".

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Swallowed the big red pill did you? Welcome to reality.

  6. Zelkiiro profile image84
    Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago

    If God exists, he is an incredibly malevolent being who should be destroyed and/or imprisoned at all costs.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I've found that if you ignore him he goes away. It appears only the critical thinkers can look at the God of the bible and Quran for what they are. There are those who are afraid to ask the difficult questions.

      1. Chris Neal profile image85
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What about those of us who ask the difficult question yet still conclude there is a God?

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Good question. The OT, the NT, the Quran and the book of mormon all are description of what God wants of us, none more valid than another. Which ones get ruled out? Which ones were not Gods words? Which were fabrications? All of us want to live forever in peace and harmony, but just because we want to doesn't make it possible. Is reality too difficult for some? Pick a book and run with it, it doesn't matter which one as each followers of the books all make the same claims.

          1. Chris Neal profile image85
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Following one of those books does not necessarily mean you don't deal with reality. And, as some of the hubbers in these forums so amply attest, failing to deal with these books is no guarantee that you're dealing with reality.

            I don't know that much about the Book of Mormon or the Quran. I do know that the Bible, whether you only accept the OT or believe the whole thing, attests that peace is not going to happen here on earth, at least not as a long term condition. There will always be strife. Take religion away and there will always be strife. If everyone were to be the exact same religion there would still be strife. That's reality. A reality that many don't want to deal with, and so they believe that if religion were wiped away we would magically have some Aquarian age of peace, love and understanding (and what's so funny about that?)

            And of course if history had ever shown that a lack of religion actually led to any kind of utopia, you would get a lot more people trying it. But in places where it has been officially imposed, it still hasn't lead to any kind of great society. If anything, exactly the opposite. Yet when confronted with this fact, those who believe strongly in that system always fall back on "They didn't do it right." Gee, that was sure dealing with reality.

            A lot of people like to say that all the great religions are consistent in the big points and differ on the small points. It's actually the opposite. God is not God in the Book of Mormon. Allah is not the same as Jehovah, and belief in Jesus as God the Son would be utter blasphemy as well as quite beyond the imagination of most Muslims. And I don't say that hyperbolically. I used to live next door to a Muslim and we had a couple of conversations. He was a really nice guy and I certainly didn't push it, when I saw him getting upset I backed away. He agreed to the conversations and we wound up finding that we didn't agree on hardly anything religiously. He is a Sunni and no radical. No beard, he didn't make his wife wear a hijab. He gave me a Quran, which I read some until my wife made me throw it away. The Quran teaches that such a thing is simply not possible.

            The point of that being, just picking a book and running with it is actually not a good idea.

        2. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Some of us that ask the  difficult question yet still conclude a belief in God usually have developed a different understanding of God than is normally set out in mainstream.

          1. Chris Neal profile image85
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            This is true, although even among ourselves there can be disagreement.

            1. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I agree totally

    2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You can't be mad at this guy for being mad at God.  It just seems really evil to let people suffer if you have the power to stop it.  Can't wait till "The Man of Steel" comes out.  Might be a fantasy, but so to might be the bible.  At least Superman uses his powers to help people.  If he heard a person cry for help he would get up put his cape on and help that person.

  7. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    It seems to me a good account has to include people given things they did not handle or could not meaningfully be said to be able to handle, like a baby born with a genetic defect that kills them before or immediately after birth.

  8. jstfishinman profile image78
    jstfishinmanposted 3 years ago

    You only have to read the book of Job to figure most of this out. Job was a very righteous man in the sight of God. Satan approaches God and wants to test Job. God limits Satan, to you can do whatever you want to those around Job, but you can't touch Job. Satan proceeds to kill off all of Jobs children, and take all of Jobs wealth. Satan again approaches God, and says he wants to test Job further, and God allows it. God is constantly working to build our character up for His service. God, having our salvation and happiness at heart will allow Satan to test us sometimes. God does this to make us stronger, not to punish us, although sometimes it feels like punishment.
    I was abused by a relative at the age of 8, for along time I wondered why. Then one day God lead me to a recovery program, where I discovered I could help others that had been abused. That has been a blessing to me and God. Our mess becomes God's Message.
    The other aspect of this question has to do with bad things happening to good people, these people could be like Job going through a trial. It could also be, that God looking at their hearts, knows something we don't know, looking in from the outside. I hope this helps.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'm truly sorry you were taken advantage of, it's incredible unfair.

      "Satan proceeds to kill off all of Jobs children, and take all of Jobs wealth. Satan again approaches God, and says he wants to test Job further, and God allows it."

      To bad god didn't consider Jobs family or Job for that matter. Instead he's making bets with Satan. Who in their right mind would treat their children that way.

    2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So God just buddies up with Satan and says yea lets F with this guy Job?  I don't get it.  No wonder that word "Job" is now used to describe "struggling" as most of us do every day when we go to work and half our money goes right back to the system that then uses it to line there already fat pockets.

  9. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    How does that explain someone like an unborn baby going through a trial of fatal  congenital illness when they cannot do anything about it one way or the other?

    1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      EXACTLY.  How are they going to use there suffering to help anyone?  This is all BS.  Either are human minds can not understand this stuff or God is just a.....This just hurts to read, some of this stuff.  It's just not fair.

  10. kmbacon profile image60
    kmbaconposted 3 years ago

    A common question of unbelievers is,"If ther is a God, why does He allow war,birth defects,disease,etc.?'Since they know in their hearts that God must exist,what they are really asking is,"Why doesn't God use His power to stop or change things?'

    The reason for wars,birth defects,disease,and othr problems that plague humanity is that Sin has caused them.They did not exist until sin came into the world.Because of what sin,selfishness,and Satan have done to human society,and the planet,God has seen necessary to do for man what man can not do for himself.

    Through Christ,God provides a solution to the ills of the world.The victory of the redeemed is not that they transform the world,but that they overcome the world by the transforming power of God's Spirit in them.Through Christ,His Spirit resurrects them from death in trespasses and sins,and lifts them in their spirits into a realm of faith above the world system and its iniquity.People transpose the ills of society from self and Satan to God.Our problem is not that God is unfaithful,but that man is unfaithful.Transposition is a common error in man.

    We must realize our persprctive is not God's.Ours is based on what we see naturally.We don't understand as God understands,which is the reason we must act by faith.In the midst of our greatest crisis His Transcendent Glory is to take what was meant for evil and turn it around and make it work for our good.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Okay, i'm going to stop you right after your first paragraph.  You asserted "since they know in their hearts that god must exist"

      This assumption is wrong.  Just flat out wrong.  Why do you assume people that lack a belief in god know, in fact, that a god exists but deny him?  Nothing could be further from the truth. 

      I am not an atheist because I had bad experiences as a missionary, a theology student or a biblical scholar, although I had many bad experiences.  I am not an atheist because I am uninformed about christianity or I don't know what I'm talking about - quite the contrary.  I'm an atheist because there has simply been no proof of god presented that has stood up to scrutiny.  People have been trying to prove god for over 6000 years, to no avail.  If there was real, verifiable proof of god, there would be no atheists.  There would still be anti-religionsists who would refuse to worship a god they deemed cruel or immoral, but there would not be people insistent on denying a god's existence. 

      Were evidence ever presented for any god determined to be sufficient, I would be faced with a choice.  I could either accept that god and agree to worship him/her/it, or I could reject it - not because I didn't believe it existed, but because I rejected its principles, morality or ethics.  You seem to have little understanding about atheists and other non-believers, and you seem to completely discount the millions of others who accept a belief in a god, but it's a different god than the one you presuppose.

      The rest of your post is little more than a short sermon.  It's what you believe, but nothing you can demonstrate or prove to anyone else.  It's a story in a few thousand year old book that has been altered, subtracted, added to and translated hundreds of times.  You believe that book is true, probably because you were told it was.  Have you really examined it for yourself?

      1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
        tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This guy has a point.  All these years where is the proof?  If science can explain how we came from nothing and have the brain capacity to question our existence I will then have to take his route and debunk belief in God.  Until then I have to believe all of this was created meaning there must be a creator.  I just don't know why things have to be like this.  I understand we have free will so there will always be suffering....we do have ourselves to blame as far as cancer and alot of other things.  we created tvs, cell phones, microwaves, radio towers, etc.  i guess maybe God is just letting us stew in our on juices.  I can live with that.  But if he is helping some people and not others, I have an issue with that.  It is not JUST, it is not RIGHTEOUS.

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Heads up.. JM is female

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, and I thought my kid died because of a combination of bad genetics and random chance.  It's nice to know that it was because of sin.

      In response to another post of yours it's also nice to know that God doesn't give us more than we can handle. Spoken like someone who has never been given too much to handle... Unless ativan and mental institutions were part of God's plan, God did indeed give me more than I could handle.

      But hey thanks for downplaying my grief! Nice talking to you.

      1. Chris Neal profile image85
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I did not know that your child died. I'm sorry. I can relate.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I mention it on occasions, especially when I'm feeling upset about it anyway and a post pushes the thought even more forward.

          I know you can relate and thank you for your sympathy.

          We have quite a bit in common, you know.  We just argue a lot about the things we disagree on.

          1. Chris Neal profile image85
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You and Rad Man. If I wasn't such a firm Calvinist we'd probably have nothing to argue about at all.

            wink

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yea, you've got to do something about that. big_smile

              1. Chris Neal profile image85
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I'm trying!


                But you guys are soooooo stubborn!

                smile

      2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
        tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Melissa I feel your pain.  I'm going through some rough times myself right now.  I am glad we have a forum to communicate and share our experiences and mind states.

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry to hear you're having rough times

  11. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    I see no logic in the sin of people in the past causing suffering to babies now.  That explanation seems the least logical and least fair to me.  By comparison "mysterious ways" is much more palatable.

  12. 0
    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    I wouldn't flatter yourself red pill. This reality is a pimple in eternity. Suffering is the pus, to put it crudely. No one minds asking why God allows it. What we don't want to discuss is how much of it is self inflicted.

    How much starvation would there be, if we fed our neighbors? How much disease is attributable to natural causes, that we have the means to alleviate? How much disease is directly attributable to pollution of our resources and our life styles?

    Name one thing that causes suffering and an honest evaluation will show that we not only allow it in some instances, but attribute to it in others. I have family who have died from cancer. Painful deaths. God didn't do that. We did. And starvation is no one's fault but our own. God is our scape goat.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I can really get behind this answer, Emile.  I once saw someone say that the reason they were afraid to ask God the really tough questions:  Why do you allow starvation?  Why do you allow disease?  Why do you allow homelessness, etc., was because they were afraid of what would happen when He asked them the same questions.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Haha. I'll have to remember that one. Excellent thought.

    2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
      tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I agree Emile we did do this to ourselves and we still do.  I said that in a response before I even read your comment.  What I have a problem with is the what if's.  Some say that God "helped" them or "saved" them a bunch of times.  If this is true what makes them deserving of savoir and others not?

      We as humans are biologically fitted to survive.  This is explained by Darwinism.  The world changed around us even without our wrong doing and we had to survive.  That survival instinct is what keeps you and everyone else from giving all your money and food to the poor.  Fear of your own extinction.  So it all goes back to the creator.  The world changed us and then we changed the world in order adapt to survive.

      CHURCH.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        We all live in the same reality. What we can't do is view reality exactly as the next person. I have  no more of a problem with someone saying shame on God than I do with someone saying his ways are mysterious. What I do scratch my head at is why, over all of these centuries, we ponder God's involvement, while not attempting to resolve our own.

        I suppose, it is to show that we do care, but are not empowered to effect change. And, maybe that is true, individually; but aren't we ensuring we continue to be ineffectual by continuing to discuss God's responsibility to us?  No matter what I think on the subject of God at any given moment, I can't blame suffering on the cosmos. Because I know I don't do all within my power to make a difference. If I don't why would I expect a higher power to?

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That makes no sense, there is only one way to perceive reality, in which reality has complete control over that perception. Reality does not change from person to person.

          1. psycheskinner profile image80
            psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Perceived reality does, however.  And I suspect every single human being on earth is wrong about some parts of it.

            I know what i believe but I also know that some profoundly wise people disagree with me.  So there should, IMHO, be a level of uncertainty about anything, which allows discussion without insult.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              A rose is a rose is a rose...

              If it is not perceived as a rose, to what is it perceived that is not a rose?

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                A rose is a rose. Yet, your understanding of what a rose is is completely different from another. You may perceive a rose as a beautiful and fragrant flower. Another may perceive a rose as a dangerous plant; evidenced by the stitches in a finger from raking it across a thorn. Another might be allergic, so perceives the rose as a thing to be avoided, at all costs. The rose remains unchanged, no matter how it is perceived. Consensus of belief doesn't effect the fact that the rose exists, nor does it change what it is. However, your opinion of the rose doesn't negate the reason for another person's opinion of the rose.

                1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
                  tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  But its still a damn Rose.  The reality is its still a damn rose.  If you blend it up and put it in your morning smoothie, its still a damn rose.

                2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No, it isn't. My understanding is the understanding of what reality exhibits the rose, just like everyone else.



                  Sorry, but we all perceive those qualities of a rose, regardless of whether we prick our fingers or are allergic.



                  Yes, I understand you operate on belief systems, that would be the problem on your part not being able to understand a rose.



                  We aren't talking about opinions, however I understand your reading comprehension skills lack the necessary synthesis to understand we aren't talking about opinions.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Your need to insult has grown tiresome. Proceed with your delusions ATM. I wish you the best with them. smile

          2. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I did not say, or imply, that reality changes from person to person.

        2. tHErEDpILL profile image87
          tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          "Because I know I don't do all within my power to make a difference. If I don't why would I expect a higher power to?"

          Really?

          HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT ITS A HIGHER POWER.  You can not compare yourself to a higher power.  the comparison is illogical.  Based on what we are to believe God can not be compared to anyone or thing.

          As far as reality goes, we may not even know what that is.  we could all be spirits trapped inside a human shell.  we could all be in the matrix right now oblivious to the "real world".   We base reality on what we see, hear, taste, feel etc.  What if those senses are manufactured?  But that's a different topic for another day.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I disagree. Probably since, if there is a God, I'm not certain what good would come of treating a species capable of understanding cause and effect the same as a species incapable of reasoning would be treated. If we can solve our problems, but refuse to since a higher power could do it...what does that say of our philosophy?

            1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
              tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              More is expected of someone who has ultimate power and control.

              Do we expect the President to act like us?  I could punch someone in the face if they disrespected me.  If the POTUS did that how would we look at him?  "With great power comes great responsibility."  A quote from a comic book that means more to me than anything in the GOOD BOOK.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Well, I've never been one to attempt to transfer blame. But, speaking of the president; if we acted like the presidents do we would be jailed in some cases, tried for crimes against humanity in others.

                I have no idea what railing at the unfairness of life accomplishes other than to avoid responsibility.  If there is eternal life after this reality, whatever we suffer here and now will mean nothing there. It matters here, where we all share existence. There is no god sharing this existence, on this level.  Whether one exists, or not, is a philosophical question. Suffering is not. It lives among us. To approach suffering with philosophical questions serves no good to anyone. If we agreed as to what the responsibilities of a God would be, does that alleviate suffering? Does it serve any purpose, to anybody besides the comfort of transferring blame?

  13. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    The bible never says "God wont give us more than we can handle." That is an old wives tale.
    He does promise to never leave us or forsake us no matter what.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It is also very high on my list of "punchable" phrases. Those are the phrases that I believe when uttered to someone in a time of extreme emotional stress, that it should be completely legal to punch the utterer in the mouth.

      Others include:

      Every cloud has a silver lining.
      Everybody has problems.
      Buck up.
      Look on the bright side

      And anything resembling "When this happened to my (brother, sister, mother, father, self)"

      During a funeral please include:
      "He's in a better place"
      "Time heals all wounds"
      "I'll miss him too"
      "Everything happens for a reason"

      AND MY ALL TIME FAVORITE (for a mother that lost a child)
      You're young, there's still time to have another.

      Had I not been semi-catatonic with grief, that woman would have not one tooth left in her mouth.

      /rant

      Edit: I would also like to include from a recent forum... God lost a son too.

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        How long did it take until you were able to function again?

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I'll let you know when it happens.

          It took two months to get out of the loony bin though. So I guess I was functional by some standard at that point.

          1. tHErEDpILL profile image87
            tHErEDpILLposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yea I hate when people say everything happens for a reason.  I guess those people in the Twin Towers all had tickets to this "better place"?

          2. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Im sorry.

      2. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah, this one got me too. Especially considering it was my question being answered

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      And he also says prayers can move mountains.

    3. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      That promise gets broken tens of thousands of times every day.

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You mean God breaks His promise? But you don't think He's real.
        You make no sense sir.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Hmmm... although this has been explained to you several times, you continue to bring it up. Perhaps, the words I used in previous explanations were too difficult to understand? Should I use single syllable words? Dumb it down to a child's level of understanding?

          How does one explain something to you?

        2. Zelkiiro profile image84
          Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Sherlock Holmes isn't real, either, but I am still able to analyze his actions and draw conclusions about his character. Same rule applies.

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You know nothing of God's character.

            1. psycheskinner profile image80
              psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I am not sure that a putative sentient being that is both omnipotent and omniscient could be said to have a character/personality etc.

            2. Zelkiiro profile image84
              Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Oh, trust me; I know plenty. I know that he commands parents to kill their children at the very first instance of disobedience (which would occur around age 2 or so?), he tells men that it's okay to rape women as long as they give her father some pocket change and then force her to marry him, he also tells men that women who have sex before marriage should be tortured until they die, and that anyone who doesn't believe in Him should be tortured and beheaded. And he will send all non-Hebrews into the darkness of Hell for their transgression of not being born to the right parents.

              ...But he loves you!

              "B-B-But Paul said Gentiles could avoid Hell!"

              Paul was a spy sent by Rome to dismantle the Judeo-Christian movement and/or pacify it so that they wouldn't turn on Rome. Not to mention, he was Jewish and this new movement that blasphemed his religion would have disgusted him, and he would do anything to pervert it and watch it fade away (which is why he advocated celibacy, too!).

            3. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              All we know is what is written about God's Character in a few old books and those books do not reveal a good character. Have you modified your God to suite your needs?

  14. PaulMcIntyre profile image60
    PaulMcIntyreposted 3 years ago

    There is a god, but each person is selfempowered. If you think and believe and not aware of what you believe you can plant seeds of bad things for yourself. God did not make bad things happen You did. How does a person see his own believes. Slow down in life, get away from it all, quiet time. You will start to see how what you believe becomes true. Is it god or is it you that is creating bad things.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      God. Absolutely. smile

  15. tylerunb14 profile image61
    tylerunb14posted 3 years ago

    Well you have to distinguish between two types of that problem, namely the problem of evil. The problem of evil can apply both to moral evils and to natural evils. Moral evils being people committing crimes that harm others, and natural evils being something like the existence and life cycle of a virus. Theist (not me) tend to work out the moral problem succesfully in a philosophical sense. Their argument tends to go something like this: we have freewill, given to us by god. This good is a greater good than lets say taking that freewill away to protect people. A common analogy given is that a parent lets their children run outside in the woods, even though the chances of them getting hurt are there. They do this because they know the benefit of allowing that child the freedom to do so. So the theist make a stronger case for the moral problem of evil. What is particularly interesting is the natural evil argument. If there is an all powerful, all good god out there, why not create a world in which viruses did not exist, that basic human physiological systems did not break down so dramatically, at young ages (children dying of leukemia, other cancers) and the like. We all know this argument all too familiar and the theist is generally stuck (in a philosophical sense, theologically they can do anything they want...).

  16. 0
    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    Can I throw up now? roll

    1. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      LOL By all means..Toilet to the left.. I'll hold your hair back for you

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Point to ponder. The only thing you know is that JM claims to be a Bible scholar. People make all kinds of claims on these forums. Having read her posts in the distant past, I saw no evidence to support that claim. We do have a poster with a PHD in Theology, so comparing the two is like apples and oranges.

        Secondly, what does someone's sexual orientation matter? Why must someone be warned of it?

        1. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          lol... question it all you want.  I don't really care if people believe me or not - it is what it is.  I know the truth, and the people that truly know me know the truth.  What anonymous hubpage posters think of it or my background is ultimately irrelevant.  I don't particularly care one way or another.  I don't need to prove myself to you or anyone else.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I wasn't asking for proof. That is the great thing about this environment. Your words prove who you are. And who you aren't. I, too, don't care what anyone thinks I am, or am not. (I probably shouldn't have included the word too in that)

            I don't have an ax to grind.

            1. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              that's not necessarily true.  I've seen people with no secondary advanced education put forth brilliant arguments that have blown me away.  I've seen PHD scholars put forth arguments that a fifth grader can refute.  This environment may be good for many things, but it's not necessarily an accurate judge of character on all fronts, and judging a person's intelligence, background or mental philosophy is flawed when you use mere blips of posts on any forum to do it.

        2. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Degrees in Scripture and degrees in Theology are two totally different animals, Emile.  So, what you see from a Ph.D. in theology will be very different from what you see from a scripture scholar.  While one has a lot of philosophy behind it, the other is more or less a historical and linguistic endeavor.  At least that's been my experience from having been taught by both.

          And, look, I know it makes you want to vomit, but occasionally, it's fun to be just a tad playful.  None of is really the type to descend on someone like a school of hungry sharks. 

          smile

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            No. Evangelicals do not have degrees in Bible studies.Granted, they claim to; but I knew a guy once with a 'degree' in petroleum distribution he got in the army.  I know it tickles them to claim a degree, but what does this mean? Really.

            The attempt to intimidate another Hubber by announcing JM not only had a degree, but was also a lesbian. Egads. Or, better yet...wtf?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
              MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I'm confused...

              No Evangelical has ever gotten a degree in Bible Studies? And no one has ever gotten a degree while in the Army?

            2. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I wasn't trying to intimidate another hubber by providing that information.. Just giving said hubber pertinent info to consider when preparing a response.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Then, please. Explain why JM's sexual orientation is pertinent. Are you in the habit of starting a conversation with 'By the way. I'm heterosexual.' Because I don't know of any juncture where I needed to announce this.

                And, if JM is a    Bible scholar then I would assume this would be evident in the ensuing conversation. I read through the conversation where you three were so sure that no one had a chance against her. Really?  Do you think that Hubber won't be intimidated? Ok, if she's read JM's usual argument..then, no. But, if not, then that Hubber might be hesitant to engage.

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I have a usual argument?  that's news to me.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    In fairness to you I haven't read a post of yours in months. There was nothing original in them so I stopped. I'm sure you haven't read mine either. So, don't act offended.

                2. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  once again, the poster I commented on was making a comment using scripture to target lesbians. When JM responded I also responded by letting the poster that was targeting lesbians know that JM is a lesbian.Plain and simple. It's no different that If I saw someone posting something that would be targeting something close to you and you responded. I'd let that person know that this is close to home.



                  How did you gather that we believe nobody had a chance against her? Reaching a little, aren't you?

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    No, I don't think I'm reaching. But, as to targeting lesbians. Everyone knows Paul was a homophobe. He ranted on the subject on more than one occasion. I know a Methodist minister who assumes he was homosexual. He thinks Paul was wrong, but simply struggling against himself.

                    You can't argue that there was no discrimination within religion back then. To claim passages aren't openly discriminatory is fruitless. It seems to me it shouldn't be denied, Christians should simply recognize it as wrong and contrary to any teachings of the guy they claim to follow. Paul was no prophet. He was just a little man with a big ego. He got some things right and some things wrong. He was human.

            3. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Huh?  I didn't say that Evangelicals have degrees in Bible Studies?  I just said that theology and scripture scholarship are two very different things. And, what does getting a 'degree in the army' have to do with anything?

              I'm sorry.  You just confused me.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Claiming a degree means nothing. Claiming anything here means nothing. Especially if your argument doesn't support your claim. I thought someone said she was a Bible scholar. I'll have to read back through to find out what the claim was.

                My point with the army comment was we call lots of pieces of paper degrees. Attempting to claim some type of authority because of one is ridiculous. What DM set the stage for was to imply that the Hubber who commented was at a disadvantage because of an unprovable claim. Appeal to authority, where no authority existed.

                1. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay.  I see what you're saying.  I was just saying that if you were to compare the posts of a Theology scholar to those of a Scripture scholar, they would appear very different, because the studies are very different.  To backtrack a bit...I will say that this has been my experience in the Catholic Church.  In chatting with my husband just now, he says that has not been his as an Evangelical, so in short...I may not know what the hell I'm talking about.

                  smile

                  No harm done.  Sorry if I caused any confusion.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image85
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    In Evangelical circles, Apologists tend to be Theologians. Not always, but often the better known ones have a training in theology, usually a Masters and often a PhD.

                    However your point is valid because the two disciplines are not interchangeable. But in Evangelical circles a training in theology, especially systematic theology, is often considered a basic foundation for apologetic work, and a thorough knowledge of Scripture is an absolute must.

                2. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry, I implied nothing of the sort.. I was simply making an observation for the hubber. I didn't say anything about any disadvantage or anything of the sort. I didn't even mention anything about their claim being unprovable.. You missed with this one... Sorry

              2. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, Mother sad

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sister, not Mother...right Mo?

                  1. 0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yep.  Sister.  smile

                2. 0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  wink

                  Look, I have to be a task master around here sometimes, Deepes.

                  1. 0
                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I guess one of us has to be an adult sometime around here.. I guess it was your turn today LOL

            4. Chris Neal profile image85
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Excuse me? What basis are you using for the sweeping statement "Evangelicals do not have degrees in Bible studies?"

          2. 0
            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I dunno, we all go for some of the more outlandish posters

        3. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes she has claimed this and has proven it to me. As such I took her evidence for what it was..



          The warning in question was in regard to a scripture post that seemed to be targeting lesbians.  JM asked a question and i was just giving the person things to consider when preparing a response.

  17. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago

    Good grief, everyone.  No playing around.  Get back to the subject and be serious. 

    That's all I have to say about that.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      yes, dear.  *rolls eyes*

      1. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        HAHAHAHA!!!

      2. Chris Neal profile image85
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I am sorry I haven't gotten back to you. I waited because I wanted to think not only about what I was going to say but also about what you actually said. Unfortunately, when I went back to try to find the original comment I can't find it anymore, and some of the things I wanted to say I don't think I can phrase correctly without being able to refer back to it.

        I'm sorry I offended you.

        I hope you saw my comment to Rad Man, but that doesn't cover all the things I wanted to say. I'm still looking for it. I haven't stopped wanting to talk to you, I just didn't want to be glib about anything.

        1. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          do you mean this one?

          did you put those two things together accidentally or on purpose?  There are a lot of sexual sins in Leviticus that you could have paired together, and I find it interesting (and a bit appalling) that you selected those two if it was anything more than coincidence.

          Additionally, even if you can prove your case that the laws of bestiality and homosexuality applied to the jews in general, you would have another battle in applying them to gentiles and/or christians.  How do you pick and choose which laws to follow?  Did you refuse to touch your wife when she was on her period and burn every piece of clothing/furniture that she touched?  That's in Leviticus too.  I think that cherry-picking ancient literature becomes dangerous.  You follow the lines that you agree with, disregard the ones that seem stupid and ignore the ones that you simply don't want to follow.

          1. Chris Neal profile image85
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            yes that would be the one.

            Now I need to spend time reading and thinking about it again.

            I will say one thing though, and I hope you already know this about me. In spite of the fact that I am a Calvinist, I'm not an "OT Christian." I try to find what Jesus had to say about any given thing or what is in the NT. I also don't quote "eye for an eye" when discussing punishment.

            That, combined with other things I've written both to you and Rad Man will hopefully give you a little insight into what I think, but I don't pretend that I've addressed your issues en toto.

          2. Chris Neal profile image85
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I didn't really think it through when I wrote that. I apologize for my thoughtlessness. Like I said, I don't want to be glib. I will say, and  I assume you read this when I wrote it to Rad Man, that I don't subscribe to the "God hates gays" theory of who's going to hell. And like I wrote previously, many of the nicest people I've ever known are gay.

            As early as the ninth grade I was aware that gay men all claimed that they had "always been that way." And I thought about that and believed it, even though I didn't understand why they were attracted to men and not women. I lived in a pretty conservative, small town in New Hampshire while attending my senior year in high school, and while taking my psychology class the subject came up. I was the only one in the classroom who didn't subscribe to the theory that they either chose it or were led into it, but when I brought it up the teacher quietly let me know that I shouldn't go there.

            I know that there are people who claim that reparative therapy has "cured" them. This is a very small number, to be sure. I do not bring this up in order to rub your nose in it or say that I think if you just tried harder that you'd be straight. I don't claim to know anything about stuff like this. The only thing I do claim is that I believe that we are all created in God's image. I know that brings up a whole raft of other questions. And if you think I'm being a bit chicken by not dealing with them now, you're right. But on the other hand, I also don't want to just charge into something. I do want to converse, and understand, and think about things. I hear and read a lot of different stuff by a lot of different people and I try to think about it all.

            Again, and I know I've said this before, I'm not an "OT Christian." There are NT verses about a lot of things.

  18. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    So you phrase a question to Chris:
    "Are you sure that's not just a rationalization to explain the lack of ethics in of the bible? It seems to me it would be more likely these ethical dilemmas are present because the books were written by mere men with no help from God thousands of years ago."

    This is how you phrase it to me:
    "You understand that's a rationalization right?"

    One is respectful and asks his opinion... the one to me simply states that you're right and I'm wrong. You have humility and discussion with Chris, with me... your statement leaves no room for conversation at all.

    To Chris:
    *are you sure
    *it seems to me...

    To me:
    *You realize... right?

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes Beth, and I believe I explained and apologized to you so I rephrased the question for Chris. I honestly didn't think I was offending you, but if I had I'm sorry. It's sometimes difficult to express myself and remain conscious of others sensitivities. Check with Chris, every once in a while he gives me s*@t. Then we both move on.

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Oh I missed your apology. Sorry, and thanks.

  19. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    I see you've done quite a bit of editing... so in response.
    I don't know if those things are true or not. If they are, then I can only assume she made a terrible mistake. If God provided her with what she needed and she didn't use them, then my heart goes out to the ppl who didn't receive what they needed. *If that is true.
    Like I said though, her life was spent as a sacrifice for others and for God. She once saved the lives of 37 children as they were caught in a battle between the Israeli's and Palestinian's. This tiny, old, frail nun, negotiated a cease fire. Why would you not focus on the good she did instead of any mistakes? We are all guilty of mistakes... would you want yours posted on the internet for the world to see after you die? Or would you hope to be forgiven?

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'm just saying that glorifying a person based on their acts of charity is not always what it seems.  There are a lot of organizations and articles that have been published in reputable formats that decry the harm that she caused as well as the benefits that she provided to the people she "served".  Look into it for yourself before putting her on a pedestal sarcastically to attempt to prove a point.  If this is true, imagine what could have been accomplished and the number of lives that could have been saved if she used what she was given.

      Furthermore, I go out and try to do my part.  I feed the homeless on a regular basis.  I contribute to secular charities.  I try to help those around me who are in need - not because I was ordered to, or because I'm hoping for a heavenly reward.  I do it because it's the right thing to do for other human beings who are suffering.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You're right. It is the right thing to do. Im glad you do it. I wouldn't have even known had you not shared with us.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, she knew exactly what she was doing, no mistakes.



      Yes, well this is just another one of those scenarios you brought up but failed to do your homework.



      So what? Many folks step in to negotiate cease fires, we don't hear you praising them.



      lol Nice backpedaling.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes... this seems right. ATM tearing down Mother Teresa for her work. All has been revealed. This speaks of your character. There's nothing left to discuss.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Actually perhaps you need to see the documentaries about her work and involvement with corruption. I was raised as a Catholic and thought she was feeding the poor in India. What she was doing was facilitating a painful death as she thought pain brought people closer to God. There were some that a trip to the hospital would save a teenage life, but she wouldn't pay for the cab ride so she let the die. Did she die in the same place she helped so many die?

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          lol Yes, a narrow minded view of Mother Teresa is the preferred view. It speaks of HER character, not mine.

  20. Compliance Doctor profile image52
    Compliance Doctorposted 3 years ago

    The Bible is nothing more than a good book of parables.  Stories to condition mankind in understanding society of rhythm and structure, reducing chaos and crime.  If you have not seen the documentary on religion, you should watch it.  You will learn that every society has had a Bible like guide for it in every culture of folks.  Since way before the beginning of our civilization, there were similar stories told that has been acted upon and embellished since the very beginning and even before that.  If you understand evolution, you understand that for all of us to have come from a single cell individual, this would have destroyed mankind in that deformities alone would have prevented the procreation of all walks of life.  For this reason, sisters and brothers do not get married and have babies.  If they did, the baby would be outrageously deformed and more than likely not survive the gestation period or birthing process.  It is a romantic story, many of the Bible stories are romantic in that to believe them as written would be much easier than to try to tell a story to all people and expect it be followed if it were just a guide.  Rather we instill fear and regret for people if they do not follow it, they will perish.  If you do follow it, there is after life.

    I personally choose to believe in the higher power that is capable of making things for my life better.  This higher power is in me, it is me and everything about it is me.  I have the power to do all things, I own the rights to my life and try to be a good person, knowing that to be a bad one has consequences I wish not to be familiar with, I think you have the picture for me.  The beauty about spirituality is that it starts in you and in me.  The huge concern I have is when society has placed the Bible as a book that all must follow each and every scripture, then there is an issue within this belief.  For what is good or right for you, may not be the case for me.  This is when self convictions start to work and should help you determine what to do or how to behave based on your own self convictions.

    Watch the movie/documentary from Bill Maher, Religulous- it helps to see the illogical aspect of the organized religion that we know of today in our century.  Whether you are in agreement or not, it will help educate the uneducated regarding this type of  world wide religion. 
    http://s3.hubimg.com/u/8096774.jpg

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      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Good luck relying on yourself when you have cancer. Good luck relying on your own power when you get arrested for drunk driving... even though you only had two beers. Good luck relying on your own mind when you fall on the ice and receive a brain injury... or when someone you love dies and you sink into a deep depression and you can't get out of bed, let alone go to work.

      Life comes with nothing but uncertainty... and these trials come for the believer and the unbeliever. But there is no hope if this is all you have... and if this *is all you have, you have nothing.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Beth hon, please understand that if YOU don't have God YOU have nothing.  That's you.  There are plenty of other people, myself included, that have no particular need for God to deal with trials.

        Belief in his presence is nice and calming, I guess, but I handle things exactly the same way now as I did when I was not a Christian. When I pray, I pray for things like strength and patience.

        If I was arrested for DUI, I'd call a lawyer. If I had cancer, I'd call a doctor. When someone I love dies and I slip into a deep depression, I call a shrink.  (several actually)

        I just never was the kind to pray for God to help me out of a tough situation. If he's in a prayer-answering mood, then I'd much rather he'd feed those kids praying for food than fix my DUI ticket.

        I was always a "Trust in God, but tie your camel" kinda person anyway.

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          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I would do the same things Melissa... call a doctor, call a lawyer etc.
          Yes, God brings comfort, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when your strength runs out and you have no one left to rely on. I've ministered to women in prison before... it's a dark place... ppl are screaming, moaning, crying. They don't see their kids anymore cause they wrote bad checks. I'm saying the world deals you blows that your lawyer can't protect you from. Your doctor can prescribe chemo, but then he'll ask you to pay the bill whether you live or die. There is something better. Someone who loves you and wants to be your help in time of need. He wants to have a relationship with you because He made you... you matter to Him. I didn't even mention the fact that He created you for eternal life. This life is not the end. Endurance is not your only hope.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            There are still people who get through without God and without anyone else.  They have the inner strength to pull through all on their own.

            It's kinda silly to say that those people don't exist and it's kinda insulting to say they have "nothing"

            I am, personally, quite proud of pulling through some of the trials in my life with nothing but my own intestinal fortitude.  That made me better and it made me stronger.  No God needed, and in some cases God would have actually been a hindrance.

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              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Please understand, I know they exist... there are some ppl out there with amazing fortitude. I was just telling my husband today that I was always impressed with Paul Newman and JoAnn Woodward... They were a Hollywood couple, He was one of the most beautiful men that ever lived... and yet they kept their marriage together. They raised a family and founded the Hole in the Wall gang. And though this is all just from memory, I don't believe they ever found a use for God. It is not an insult at all to say that we need a savior. Do you understand my belief? For me to hear someone say they need no God, when I have no doubt that it was the blood He shed for their sin that could save their soul... it would make me heartless not to share the hope I have.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It's not an insult to you Beth, but it is insulting to people who do it all on their own.  I understand your belief, I really really do.  I, obviously, on some level have a reason that I NEED God as well.  But, there are plenty of people who DON'T... and telling someone what they need is always insulting, especially if they are going about their business quite fine on their own. They obviously already have what they need.

                By all means, share your hope, but realize that it's YOUR hope. If it's not anyone else's then you are wrong to assume that it will help them.  It's like telling me that because you hope for a Jaguar that I should buy one.

                1. JMcFarland profile image91
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  +1

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                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  If I knew a plane was going to crash and I begged you to wear a parachute, it would not be an insult for me to get on my knees and plead with you. I cannot make anyone believe... I can only tell them what I personally know to be true and if they deny it, Ive done my best. It is not comfortable, no. Dealing with ATM on a daily basis is not preferable. Being called a liar or foolish or insensitive is not the way I would choose to spend my day... but I will do all I can to offer you hope here on earth and hope for salvation. I have a love in my heart for all of you. Some of you are easy to love... but some I don't have as much in common with... and I know that God would have me love them on His behalf. I will try harder to let His spirit lead me, though I'm only human and I'm just back from a very low valley... I'll try to do better.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    But you aren't telling people to wear a parachute Beth.  Not really. You are actually kinda telling people who already have a parachute on to take it off and wear one you think is better. To them, the parachute that they are wearing has been proven to be effective. Taking it off to put on one you think will work just as well makes no sense at all.

                  2. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    But I already have hope and understanding. You claim you KNOW something that which you THINK and this is why ATM is all over you yet gives respect and kindness to other believers. This is why you are told that what you say is a lie. We know you have no way of knowing. I'm glad you found something that get you through life because it appears something you need. But for those who don't need an afterlife and prefer reality, we don't see what you see which should be for you an indication that what you see may not be reality.

                    You are beginning to sound like a knock on my door. If you continue I'll start to sound more like ATM but without the patients.

              2. Chris Neal profile image85
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Amen.

            2. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              thank you, Melissa.  I hear the "if you don't have god, you have nothing and therefore everything is meaningless" all the time, and it really grates on me.  I don't need a god for strength.  Everyone has hardships, and some of us have learned that you take the good with the bad and look forward to what's next.  If I need help, I ask real people that I trust, and they're usually more than willing to lend a helping hand.  Other than that, I've learned to rely on myself and I take pride in my accomplishments and try to learn from my mistakes. 

              I don't have a god, but that doesn't in any way shape or form mean that I have nothing.  This was posted on Gretta Christina's blog titled "9 questions to never ask atheists, and why they get upset if you do" and I found it particularly fitting.

              2: “How do you have any meaning in your life?” Sometimes asked as, “Don’t you feel sad or hopeless?” Or even, “If you don’t believe in God or Heaven, why don’t you just kill yourself?”

              The answer: Atheists find meaning and joy in the same things everyone does. We find it in the big things: family, friendship, work, nature, art, learning, love. We find it in the small things: cookies, World of Warcraft, playing with kittens. The only difference is that (a) believers add “making my god or gods happy and getting a good deal in the afterlife” to those lists (often putting them at the top), and (b) believers think meaning is given to them by their god or gods, while atheists create our own meaning, and are willing and indeed happy to accept that responsibility.

              In fact, for many atheists, the fact that life is finite invests it with more meaning — not less. When we drop “pleasing a god we have no good reason to think exists” from our “meaning” list, we have that much more attention to give the rest of it. When we accept that life will really end, we become that much more motivated to make every moment of it matter.

              Why you shouldn’t ask it: What was that we were just saying about “dehumanization”? Experiencing meaning and value in life is deeply ingrained in being human. When you treat atheists as if we were dead inside simply because we don’t believe in a supernatural creator or our own immortality… you’re treating us as if we weren’t fully human. Please don’t.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
                MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It's quite clear to everyone in my life that my purpose in life comes from a source other than God.  My faith adds value to my life, but it is in no way the center of my life.

                I once heard a preacher say that God should come before everything, even my children.  I stood up and walked out. I never returned again.  I discussed it with one of my more zealotous friends who agreed that God does, indeed, come before her children... because God was her maker.

                I informed her that my parents were my makers as well, and if there were a fire I would literally step on my parents (who I love dearly) to get to my kids. If necessary, I would throw them out the window so my kids would have something soft to land on.

                A digression, I know, but for some of the faithful there is literally nothing else to them but their faith.  These people cannot possibly conceive of a person without faith having anything to live for.  It comes from knowing that without their own religion, they would be essentially a lifeless husk.

                These are the most dangerous of the zealots.  They absolutely cannot question anything about their faith or form any opinions on their own.  Their entire self-esteem is a house of cards.  This makes them, essentially, narcissists by proxy.  Basically unstable, dangerously defensive and most assuradly bat-shyte crazy.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            This is what get YOU by, and that's okay, but don't assume everyone is the same.

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          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Good points.. the more we operate in principles, the less we need miracles

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I found that funny. If you get arrested for drinking while driving you need God? What? Where was he when I was getting behind the wheel?

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        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Hey, Beth. Hope all is well with you and your family. I'm not sure exactly how you interpreted this post from the Compliance Doctor, but to me (And I could be wrong), but it appears that he or she is a believer. In reading his/her comment, I see principles that realistically can be held and good for believers if we take a good look at it. If I may (or if you choose to read it...lol) I would like to break it down based on how I read it (which simply is different, the way you read it could be 100% correct depending on how CD meant it). Let me break it down from the deepes mind (NOTE- THE FOLLOWING INTERPRETATIONS, BELIEFS, ETC ARE PURELY AND SIMPLY THOSE OF DM AND MAY OR MAY NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS OF ANYONE ELSE. I COULD BE WRONG AND DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO ACCEPT MY INTERPRETATIONS!!):





        While I disagree with the statement that the Bible is nothing, I do agree that it is a book of parables and stories (NOTE- YES I SAID THAT IT IS A BOOK OF PARABLES AND STORIES THAT TELL A STORY AND HAVE A POINT, BUT THAT IS NOT STATING WHETHER THEY DID OR DID NOT HAPPEN AS WRITTEN). Look at some of the more well known stories:

        Creation- Genesis 1 basically gives a basic illustration of how God created everything. The truth of the matter is that the writers don't know for sure how God created everything (And in present day, yes I know that we have no actual idea on how everything was created in general as we do not have proof either way)

        Adam & Eve- simple story of the fall of man into sin.

        Noah's flood- God's wiping the slate clean and starting over with the world.

        Now looking at the parables that Christ gave, There are principles contained in each parable on how to live the best possible life you can for the good of society (Yes, my atheist friends, I am aware that these same principles can be found in other books)




        This is unfortunately true. The parables in the NT are meant to be taught as a guide to living a good life because it is best for society. Unfortunately, There are some denominations of Christianity that rather than teach the parables and using them as a guide to teach proper ethics and morals of what is the best way to live and act for the good of others and society, they rather resort to the "turn or burn" method of telling people to be good (not necessarily always do good) or else they're going to Hell.


        I am still quoting CD on this next question, but I'm numbering the different points to save me the time of breaking each one up:




        1) This statement appears that he is spiritual and does believe in a higher power.. For you, me, and other Christians, this higher power is God, so everything after this I'm working off our beliefs.

        2) The bible teaches that we fall under the guidance and covering of the holy spirit which was sent to us as another comforter after Christ's ascension. So The power is within us (if you believe in the holy spirit) or if not, see my next point

        3) The Bible teaches that we are made in God's image. This (in my opinion) is not limited simply to physical appearance. We have the ability to do things for ourselves that a lot of people would rather wait on God to do yet wonder why it isn't getting done. In relation to your point wishing him luck if something bad happens, we have the power to get ourselves out of these situations by applying basic principles (lawyer, doctors, etc). The more we operate in principles (and common sense), the less we need miracles.

        4) Philippians 4:13.

        5) Free Will- enough said here

        6) Basic everyday ethics. Be a good person and do good things for people and good things happen. Do bad things and bad things happen what we don't want to happen.

        7) Society's interpretation of the bible does dictate that every scripture of the bible must be followed exactly as it is written (depending on how one chooses to interpret the scripture). But the truth of the matter is that even the most devout among us doesn't fallow every single word in the bible because a lot of those things changed with the life and death of Christ and are no longer supposed to be followed.

        8) Speaks for itself. What works best for you (generally speaking) in relation to your life may not be best for anyone else. As such, we should not be trying to force our beliefs down anyone else's throat because not everyone is going to agree with us. We also cannot pass judgment on them for choosing to do what they feel is best for their life.

        9) For those that believe, this is where the holy spirit that dwells within those who believe in the holy spirit comes in.

        Once again, I'm not sure how you interpreted this comment and there are some things that I disagreed with in some of the wording that CD used, but hopefully there is something in how I look at it that may help.. If not, maybe this will still open up some interesting dialogue.

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          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          This is twice now you have felt the need to interpret a post for me. Interesting.

          1. 0
            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I don't feel the need to interpret anything for you. You interpret it how you choose. I was simply looking at it from a different set of eyes. We all have our own perspective on things and I was simply giving mine. I truly don't mean any harm by it, so if you feel that I am insulting you or being condescending toward you, then please by all means accept my sincerest apology.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I somehow get by.

  21. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    I don't understand your point.  Atheists go through adversity all the time and deal with it just as well as anyone else.

  22. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    This is much more what I was expecting this morning. lol

    I have nothing to sell. Were I to be selling something, I would receive payment.
    I have nothing to benefit from anyone recognizing their need for Christ.
    Im sure you will all rise up to tell me the twisted things I would gain, but I try at all times to be authentic.
    If you do not want to have an open mind towards another point of view, as I said last night, I cannot force my perspective on you. You are free to consider it or reject it, period, but I will not shy away from telling others that what Christ offers cannot be found anywhere on earth, or even within ourselves. It is not an insult... not a commentary on the strong fiber others are made of, it is an acknowledgment of the goodness of God. I offer this perspective in love, do with it as you please.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So essentially "You need God whether you think you do or not and I will continue telling you how much whether you want to hear it or not because I love you"

      Cool enough... However please realize that people are going to be offended and annoyed by it and you don't really have the right to complain about being told that.... since you seem to be aware of it already.

      It's the reason I send JW's and Mormon's away from my door.  Not necessarily because I disagree with them, but because if I wanted them to tell me Gods message I would ask.  I feel bad for the treatment that they get from some people, but quite honestly they HAVE to know that their behavior is invasive and annoying, so they kinda are asking for whatever they get.

    2. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Beth, speaking solely for myself, I see the authenticity within you. I don't see anything wring with your opinion or your beliefs. They are YOURS and have no effect on me. My responses to you are never meant to be disagreeable with you for the sake of argument. If they are different it's a measure for me of giving a different perspective of something in an effort for the continuing exchange of ideas. We all have something we can learn from one another. I try to be respectful of everyone who is respectful of me, but I unfortunately do not know completely how each of you think. This is why I offered an apology to you (as i do anyone else) if anything I might say or might have said falls within the realm of insulting to you

    3. 0
      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I recognize YOUR need for Christ. Many of us don't NEED fairytales. You are projecting your need onto others and assuming we all need them to get through the day. That's insulting.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        When you stand before God, you can tell Him how insulting my attempts to make you aware of His love for you were. I don't know what else to say Radman... I believe God is real, and that He loves you and that His presence in your life would benefit you greatly. I can only say it so many ways... it is up to you how you will receive that info.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's better. You said believe. But your still preaching. I'm not sure how else I can explain your delusions to you as well. I've tried so many times and it doesn't get through. There is no evidence what's so ever to suggest we have an afterlife, it's just wishful thinking. A discussion can't take place when one is preaching. The door closes.

        2. 0
          riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          BETH37 WROTE:
          When you stand before God, you can tell Him how insulting my attempts to make you aware of His love for you were. I don't know what else to say Radman...
          Since neither of us are going to stand in front any fictional character, let me tell you,  its insulting to ask as to believe in stories that are utter nonsense and needs either a psychological need or lack of intelligence to believe.
          BETH37 Wrote
          I believe God is real, and that He loves you and that His presence in your life would benefit you greatly. I can only say it so many ways... it is up to you how you will receive that info.
          You can believe any nonsense (should say BS) you want and according to you, you need it but we are not kids and we don't want your idiotic stories unless you tell it as fantasy.
          Let me act like you,
          Beth it will be better to get rid of these nonsense and live life responsibly, it will benefit you.

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        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        This is an illustration of your parachute point.. To you, you may not be trying to take Beth's parachute off of her, but it appears that you're stating that essentially, her parachute is inferior to yours which carries the implication that she needs to take it off and try yours.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I did no such thing. She is stating hers is better and telling me I need hers, I'm saying leave me alone, I'm fine. I'm glad she has what she needs, but so do I. Where did I say my parachute was superior?

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You stated that her need was in a fairytale. you've basically stated leave you alone, your parachute is just fine, but her parachute is not real (to you), which in itself suggests a superiority in your parachute because yours is real (to you). we may simply have to agree to disagree on this one, but just because you you don't specifically say the words "my way is better" you still are implying the same thing by saying "your way is stupid"

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I didn't say or suggest it was better. If one needs a fairytale to get them through life then so be it. It's the projection onto others that's the problem. If you see someone struggling you can tell them what you do to get through life, but projecting ones beliefs onto others who are doing just fine is the problem and childish. Assuming everyone struggles with the afterlife is childish and maturity together with education can help.

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    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Y'all have a good day.

  24. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago

    Beth (since you addressed me) or anyone else out there who wants to weight in,
    This is my problem in a nutshell.  We all know that you, specifically, don't accept any claim that comes around just because someone says its true.  Yet at the same time, you seem to expect atheists to do what you are unwilling to do yourself - accept a claim that you say is true, just because you say it is.  How much proof would it take for you to convert to Islam or Hinduism?  Probably a lot, if you were even willing to consider the possibility at all.  We are just like you, except we go one god further - yours.  Whenever we ask for evidence, we get stories of a personal nature that cannot be tested, confirmed or verified.  We get those stories from other religions as well.  Without evidence, there's no reason for just to accept any of them, and if we did, we would be forced to accept ALL of them. 

    If you can provide an example of what would be enough to convince you that Allah or zeus was real, we may have a starting point for mutual understanding and conversation.  Standing there and just insisting that we NEED to believe what you believe because its your opinion that its true isn't going to get you very far.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      +1111111111111

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        *bows*  thank you very much.

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    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Again... we are on a religious forum. What would you like me to say from now on?
    I could agree with everyone and drop all opinions of my own.
    I could deny that God is real so that those who don't believe will find me more palatable.
    I could make sure all my posts are watered down.
    Ex: "It is my belief that God is real, and only my assumption based on my life experience that God (as least the entity that I refer to as God) loves all of mankind on a personal level. (If He is indeed real, which I realize that you do not acknowledge.) It is only my belief that rejecting salvation would be a mistake..." etc....

    However, which of you, who oppose faith, uses this kind of phrasing with believers?
    We all plainly speak our beliefs. You ask me to walk on eggshells when it comes to my belief, but I personally have been spoken to quite rudely many times concerning my faith (on a religious discussion board, where debate is invited.)

    I believe you are greatly offended, but not because what I said was offensive.

    It's not my wish to offend, but to share honestly what I believe, just as you do.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Notice how you feel you have the right to say anything and preach to anyone at anytime, but we have to be respectful and watch what we say or you feel your getting picked on. You can preach if you like, but I'll say what I like as well. Notice that other theists get plenty of respect, if you want that respect you've got to give it first. I've given you plenty up until know, and I'll continue to do so as long as you show respect back. If you're going to preach so will I.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I wasn't disrespectful to you at all Radman... and I think you have misunderstood my tone from the first moment I posted on this matter. All I have said is that I'm not sure how you would like to edit me differently... We are on a religious forum. I'm sorry that you're offended that I would sound preachy, but if I did, I can't really apologize for that. I would apologize for cussing at you, or saying something hateful or for being mean on purpose (or even on accident)... but for sounding preachy? I'm a Christian. I believe, without a doubt that God has called me to speak of His love, His forgiveness and the salvation He offers to all men. I can't apologize for talking about that... and especially not on a religious forum.

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          riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And what anybody is asking is that you to give evidence(substantiate) to what you say.
          Your only argument is, believe as I say because I said it and I will not believe you because I don't say that.


          "and especially not on a religious forum."
          Religion and philosophy forum and not evangelist forum. This is a forum for discussion not conversion or evangelization.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            This *is discussion. If you don't want to convert, that's not my business... how many times do I have to say, do as you please? If I do not have proof that moves you to reconsider, and you do not have proof that causes me to reconsider, then conversation over.

            If a certain statement or post causes me to share that a life without God is missing something incredible... so be it. It doesn't change anything for you. That is my belief. I cannot take anything from you. I've done nothing to you. In my opinion, too much has been made out of this, but that's ok... it's all a part of debate. I'm not upset as some of you seem to think. I am however a little surprised by the response after all that's been said on these discussions, but freedom of speech is a good thing. Disagree with me, I'll be ok.

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              If a certain statement or post causes me to share that a life lived within a fantasy is missing something incredible... so be it.

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                riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I too will try, though RadMan and JMc tried before.
                You can believe anyone you want. You can believe a modern priest or an ancient priest. You can believe Mahatma Gandhi or Saddam Hussein and nobody is going to question you. But this is a discussion forum and when you come here and state, for example, you believe Mahatma Gandhi, you will have to explain. It is like the question answer section at the end of a presentation (that is why it is called a forum: and you made your presentation- you believe Gandhi when he said…..). People can ask you why you believe, why you think him as correct and all. Other people might support you, but that does not mean that the questions are superfluous but your supporters are willing to answer for you. But it is not the number of people who support that decides the  answer, but by rational discussion and by supporting and opposing evidences. So you will have to tell your reasons, won’t you?
                Evidence (or your reason), you may say your personal experience. But how do we know that you are not making it up? How is your personal experience any better than mine? Unless you supply that which can be substantiated and rational, we will have to take your experience just based on your words. That will be just like taking your initial assertion as true. So the argument will just be “I said so”, but we are just as egotistical as you. We are not going to take it just because you or Obama or Jiang Xemien said so. If we are going to accept it, it should rest on the sound principles of reason and logic.
                So all you are asked is instead of asserting, just because we do not think as you do our lives are meaningless, substantiate your position with reason and logic. Simply asserting that our lives are meaningless or we lack something incredible, is insulting to say the least .

                At a lighter note; yes it is incredible and that's why we do not believe it.

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                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Did you let ATM use your account? This sounds like something he would say.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm letting her know that if she continues to preach and not discuss I'll do the same, but don't complain that she is being attacked as is her way. Her stating that she knows what's best for us all is getting a little tiring so I attempted to let her know what it sounds like.

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                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It was a joke (maybe a bad one). I got your point.

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                  riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  That was what beth said and you just asked beth to uphold such views. Why the double standard?
                  Though 'half of you are intelligent' and 'half of you are idiots' means the same thing, the latter is insulting and beth is using the latter type. Instead of telling others that their life lack something she could say her life is meaningful and is the reason why Mo or Mellisa rarely get insults while she and her kin regularly get insults.

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                    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't mean it as an insult. Rad wasn't attacking Beth and Beth wasn't attacking Rad. Rad just made a comment that I've seen ATM make in similar situation.




                    This works both ways. There are some non-believers that behave the same way.



                    Again, works both ways.



                    No argument here. Aren't they the cutest?

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                    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    riddle, thank you for the compliment.  I want to step out a little here, though, and put up a bit of a defense for Beth, and for everyone else who may tend to sound a bit ''preachy'' when they're talking about their faith, or lack thereof.  Any of us who has been involved in HP forum discussions for any length of time can honestly say that it comes from both sides (well, in actuality, EVERY side) of every issue from time to time.  In addressing just the religious forums, I believe that it's absolutely critical - not recommended, mind you, but critical - when discussing religion to keep in mind the known and unknown experiences of the person with whom you're discussing the topic.

                    I, personally, can handle almost any anti-religion argument that someone throws at me with little to no personal umbrage.  I feel that every viewpoint is valid.  If I believe that God created us in His image, which I do, I can't look at someone who's trying to be logical, rational, and reasonable in a discussion as wrong.  My feathers get ruffled and I get ready to duke it out with anyone, though, who throws the whole ''religion is a crutch for the weak'' argument at me.  First, I am not weak, and have been through many life events that have tested my strength at a level I could never have even imagined before going through them.  Second, I don't turn to my faith because I'm weak.  I turn to it because it shores up my innate strength - but it's only one of the things that does.  Love and support from my family and friends do as well.

                    All that being said, what a lot of people do not understand when discussing religion with a certain type of theist is that we really do experience our faith as a personal relationship with a creator - a father if you will.  Imagine that in the middle of a discussion about your family, someone told you that A) you are delusional because they really don't exist, or B) the same person who is arguing that your family doesn't exist then tells you that your family is made up of sadistic, cruel, egomaniacs, or C) that you're wrong to discuss the love you have for your family because other people don't want to hear about it.

                    Now, I'm not getting into the debate about God's existence here, nor am I prepared to have a discussion about the Bible.  BUT, keep in mind that a person's experience of God is important in the interpretation of their words about Him.  Beth is in love with God.  She believes that His existence has, in fact, been proven to her - more than once and over and over.  What may sound preachy to others might simply be her way of defending someone she loves very deeply.  The trouble comes when others hear from her that their life is meaningless because they do not know, acknowledge, believe in, or love the one who gives her life its greatest meaning. 

                    From person to person, what gives life meaning differs VASTLY.  As Melissa has mentioned, for her it is her children.  For Rad, it is his family.  For Julie, it's her wife, and a constant quest for knowledge and truth.  It's different for all of us.  Evangelicals and fundies may get pissed off to hear me say this, because for them, it should be God alone.  For me, it is God, but I look around at every person He's put into my life - my husband, my child, my other family, and my friends - and see HIM in them.  So, for me to devote my life to, and see its purpose and meaning in, them is to love Him back the way He has loved me.   

                    When Beth speaks of a lack of meaning without God, I don't believe that what's she's saying is that everyone's life is meaningless but hers.  I hear that she can't imagine that others live without the greatest joy and the greatest meaning that she has ever known - God. 

                    I'm not trying to speak for Beth, nor am I trying to speak for those who may disagree with her.  I just think that all of us have a tendency toward myopia when it comes to these things - and there is an awful lot to be seen much farther off.  Remember, for a lot of us theists, God is not a concept, or an idea, or a topic of debate - He is a person with whom we are involved in a deeply loving and deeply meaningful relationship.  While it may seem like a fairy tale to many, it is a reality for us.  We are not trying to force that relationship upon anyone else, we're simply trying to share why it makes us joyful and fills us with wonder.

                    Sorry to ramble, but I think sometimes it's important to see all sides of an issue when your back gets up about one in particular.  Melissa tried to help Beth with that earlier, and I just want to try to help some of you who may not see it from Beth's POV.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I understand that. I thought that's what you had been doing all along.

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                  riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Except that he doesn't say you lack something. That is what you said and what he said was that it was insulting and also asked you to prove what you said.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You do lack something... you lack God. If you find this to be an insult, I'm sorry, but it's just a fact. I recognize that you do not believe God to be a reality... which would be why you lack God. I recognize that you do not see that as lack. I cannot convince you that you do... so there we are.