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We Aren't Scum. Are We?

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    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    So. There's a thread open now, asking for believers only to chime in. I can respect that. But the thread creeps me out. Why does religion request that you see yourself as an unloveable dog? Could a God really create a species with no saving qualities only to later decide to point this out so it could magnanimously over look the fact and claim to love us? What would be the point of the exercise? Doesn't thinking God sees us as scum open the door wide to hating others? Did Jesus refer to us as scum? Doesn't believing humanity is unloveable scum in God's image imply that God is scum.

    And another question. The OP lists transgressions against others, yet God loves the OP. This implies that we can hurt others yet it is possible to not only assuage our guilt but negate it through forgiveness by a higher power.  How can this belief help the wronged party? How can it better the conditions for others? It leaves us in scum bag status. What of the mandate to leave the altar, rush to the wronged party and make amends? Why does religion attempt to imply that satisfying God involves no responsibility to others when the writings within that religion clearly show your first responsibility is to your fellow man?

    Religion is extremely confusing since it appears to attempt to convince the individual that they are nothing, but if they become one with God they, too, can magnanimously love other nothing...if only that other nothing admits it is unworthy of love. What am I missing?

    1. aguasilver profile image88
      aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Put another way.....

      Religion ..... seeks to attempt to show the individual that in their spiritually dead state they are incapable of a good relationship with God, but if they become one with God they, too, must and will learn to love everyone...but until that other individual realises they are unworthy of Gods love in their unregenerate condition, those individuals can never have a complete relationship with God or those who have elected to allow God to guide their lives.

      In the end result we all serve someone, the issue is about who we choose to serve, God or self (which in this instance is Ego and the current world (selfishness) Zeitgeist.

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Maybe, but the whole exercise appears to be an attempt to build the ego of the religious person. Not to build a relationship with anyone or anything.

        It's all a matter of perception and I'm sure there is a better way to perceive the words and actions of the overtly religious. I simply haven't found it yet. As long as all one appears to care about is convincing oneself they are loved by God they appear to ignore their primary obligation while here.

        In God's image. We have the unique ability to change perception of reality for the better, but this philosophy does nothing more than hinder that ability for everyone, but self. Imo.

    2. kess profile image60
      kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The concept is pretty simple and profitable when it understood for what it is.

      You as a human is both the worst of the worse and the best of the best.
      Getting one to accept they are the best of the best is never difficult.
      But to accept that you are also the worst of the worse is challenging for most.

      They would say I am this but not that...I can do this but I cannot do that.

      In such an approach, you are in denial of who you truly are, and in that denial you place skeletons in your closet, which you now take great pain to keep hidden.

      These skeleton loves the darkness and hates the light, so they are glad to remain hidden in the day but they will roam about in the night. The man to whom the skeletons belong , will not preach what he practises and will not practise what he preaches.

      The best solution is to expose your skeletons to the light that all may see. You do so by keeping the closet door wide open. Now the skeletons themselves will seek refuge from the light and abandon the closet altogether. They would seek a more secure closet that will be much more difficult to open.
      Thus effectively and permanently locking themselves away and leaving the man totally free.

      And with his freedom that man can be the best of the best.

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. But, the good in you greatly outweighs the bad. As in all of us. It appears that some focus primarily on the bad. The problem I see is that this course of action inhibits our ability to see the good, because the focus is on the bad. No biggie for the individual since they accept the mitigating circumstances in their own actions. Unfortunately, this philosophy refuses to address the mitigating circumstances in the actions of others.

        Few people truly believe in their hearts they are unloveable. So,  claiming to be a sinner who is unloveable isn't necessarily realistic on the individual level. Claiming to be forgiven for unloveable characteristics comes off (to me) as washing one's hands of responsibility. "hey, I'm a sinner. What can I say?" Kind of thing, as opposed to "what can I do to make amends to the individual I have wronged through my actions."

        Is responsibility for our actions truly negated by a higher power?

    3. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well, it is not often you and I agree on anything, but this seems to be one of those times. big_smile

      The most ironic thing for me is creating a separate thread for only believers and then preaching that we are all god's children. wink

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The separate thread didn't really strike me as odd. I've noticed the term believer is used to denote those who agree with a particular statement. If one disagrees they aren't a believer.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Step one in brainwashing is to break the individuals will and self esteem. Once that's done they are weak to suggestions. A desperate super-ego will cling to any notion to get what it wants and a weak ego will fall for the lie.

      Armies use the very same tactics to produce an army willing to kill without thought.

      It makes perfect sense to me.

    5. gmwilliams profile image85
      gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      According to many religions, especially the Abrahamic, Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions, humans fall short of the mark to God.  In other words, many Abrahamic religions deduce and declare that humankind are sinners who without elected saviors would be damned.  Many fundamental religionists still proclaim that the majority of humankind is damned.

      However, there are enlightened ones who state that humankind are spiritual beings having a physical experience. They maintain that humankind is inherently good; however, due to negative conditioning, they succumb to the premise that they are inherently evil.  Many enlightened spiritualists, particularly New Agers, maintain that humankind is inherently divine and are co-creators but they do not realize this potentiality as of yet.  The late Dr. David Hawkins, a psychologist/psychiatrist/spiritualist, maintained that humankind exists at a calibrated consciousness of 200 and/or less.  Dr. Hawkins further maintained that at that level and below, humankind needs a savior in order to evolve.

      The late Dr. Hawkins assert that humankind with a level of calibrated consciousness below 200 will be attracted to the lower astral realms i.e. hellish worlds while those with calibrated consciouness of 200 and above will be attracted to the higher astral realms i.e. heavenly worlds.  In my opinion, humankind HASN'T yet realized its divine potentiality as a result of being steeped in negative religious conditioning for a millenia.  Humankind is just waking up from this insidiously negative, religious conditioning.

      http://s1.hubimg.com/u/8261864_f248.jpg

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    Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago

    This gets to me also, Emile.  The conviction that we are all just crap, but God loves us anyway because we figured out the code (that much beloved sinners' prayer) to unlock his love.  And then we are somehow no longer crap, but those who haven't yet spoken the words still are.

    If I believe that God loves me, then it follows that he loves everyone.  Whether or not they do or say the right things.  The whole concept of being alone and worthless without God invalidates his entire creation, IMO.

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes. The whole idea behind much of religion appears to attempt to separate and lift the individual. By stepping firmly on the backs of others. With really spiky heels. Could a cosmic force truly ask its creation to conduct themselves in this manner? If so, why did it take so long to invent spiky heels? Wouldn't they have been handed out with the loin cloths?

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    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Dearest Emile,
    you are not scum, you are precious. I immediately think of two verses that tell you how God feels about you.
    1) Romans 5:8
    "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

    Please notice the most important part of that verse. "While we were yet sinners" that is when he chose to give his life for you... not when we submitted to him, but when we were in defiance of him, that is when he gave all he could give to save us.

    2) Matthew 18:11
    "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

    His mission, coming to earth, was a mission of love to save you. This is the word of God, not words from a man's mouth. I hope you will consider them because absolute truth is all that matters and you matter to God.

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Honestly, I see the whole story of Jesus as an attempt to change perception. Not an attempt to change reality. Religion had taught humanity that they were unworthy without ritual. Humanity bought into the idea so much so that even the story of Jesus can't shake the feeling.

      Anyway, I've never considered myself to be scum. I don't think others are. I didn't start the thread which stated we are. I was simply wondering why anyone would think a deity expected us to believe that.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What a wonderful statement... and so true. And yet that's why Jesus came, to show us that relationship was the goal... ritual and religion was man's misconception.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I think you misunderstood. wink

          Jesus did not exist as far as we can tell, and the very idea of needing to offer up the second best sacrifice for three days out of 4.5 billion years is - at best - amusing. Your religion teaches that we are worthless in need of salvation. The fact that the Invisible Super Being made us worthless is silly. And the fact that he couldn't even be bothered to kill himself properly (or his son depending on which cult you belong to) is even sillier.

          It has held us back as a society for too long now. sad

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Wonderful statement?

          It's a deeply disturbing statement because it's true.

        3. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Forgive me for correcting you, but your statement would read more truthfully if: 

          "And yet [I believe] that's why Jesus came, to show us that relationship was the goal.

          If you had written it that way, you would have my full respect.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I appreciate that... I do... but I do not seek your full respect, but would rather seek to please my God. I do not ask non-believers to phrase things in such a way that fit my belief system. For example, when Radman said the scripture that I hold in the highest of esteem and apprise as holy -  to be crap, I didn't ask him to be considerate of how that might make me feel. I simply assume we don't share common knowledge and move on.

            Again for Eric... I will let my yes be yes and my no be no.... I did not report you in any way. As Emile said, when we are banned it is b/c of our own words. I have no idea who reported you, I also have been banned for things I considered to be no more than jokes, but at the end of the day, I have to take the responsibility for it. It is in the past, I think Wilderness's advice to move on and let it go is good.

            Phil 3:13-14
            "Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."

            1. Ericdierker profile image81
              Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              May you please your God by pleasing others

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Men like sex, should I please them? Some women like gossip, should I take part? Kids like candy should I buy my children as much as they want? I do not agree with your statement.

                "Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."
                Gal 1:10

                1. Ericdierker profile image81
                  Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Awesome point. Very well said. I appreciate it. And will meditate on it.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you.

                2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  People like to be treated with respect, should you take part?

                  Matthew 7:12
                  “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Who are you? http://encephaloidead.hubpages.com/
                    You are not people yet and therefore you are not due respect. Someone who quotes scripture as an avatar is not credible. Who are you? Why should we give respect to someone who hides their identity??? what foolishness. How can I respect someone who hides?

                3. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Yup - this is why your religion causes so many fights. Presumably your god wants ill will and hatred to be spread. Or is that the other guy? wink

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I reckon is two scientist disagree that makes science bad? Knock it off

                4. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  "Men like sex, should I please them? Some women like gossip, should I take part? Kids like candy should I buy my children as much as they want? I do not agree with your statement."

                  Immediately there is a bias.   Do you see it? 

                  "Some men like sex...... just as some women like gossip.

                  Not all men are sexual Don Juan.  Not all women are seducers.  Not all homosexual men engage in what you might regard as "sin."  All of us have prejudice in some circumstances.... we pre-judge.  It's can be a scapegoat for our own inner conflict.

                  Here is a suggestion, Beth.   Do you suppose that your viewing your God as masculine hides some part of you which is anti-masculine?   Religion and sexuality can both be used to obscure inner conflict.  Just a few thoughts for you to contemplate if you wish to.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    haha... too funny. I stopped and almost considered putting "some men" but in all honesty, I have yet to meet a man who does not enjoy sex... although I'm sure there are some out there. Sorry if me leaving that word out offended you, it was not meant to.

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
              EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You are not pleasing God by disrespecting others, and He most certainly knows that if it is obvious to the rest of us. The righteous are not righteous when they are self-righteous.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Did you stop and see what you wrote here. You are judging someone else harshly for judging someone else harshly. OK. OK but at least be aware that you are doing it.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  And this would be why your religion causes so many fights. It is all the love. wink

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    There are some of us who would like to see our fellow brethren not use their religion to cause fights.

                2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Would you like me to remind or make you aware each time you judge someone? Like your post to me, for example?

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I guess you don't notice that you yourself follow suit. Do you think you guys shouldn't help each other get back on the correct path? You should just all just agree with each other?

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    That "you guys" still just bothers me. I got to tell you it is rude. EncephaloiDead has only just signed up on HP to argue. No content, no profile and yet he is just jumping in to criticize me. He uses just an avatar. I am over it.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry to burst your bubble, Beth, but they are indeed the words of men, because it was men who wrote the Bible, not gods.

      Truth matters, but there is little if any truth in the Bible, let alone absolute. Truth is in reality, Beth, not an ancient book of myths and superstitions meant to scare little chidren.

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    MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago

    I've also noticed the "for believers only" thread and thought it peculiar, what's up with that anyway? Why the need for such? Is it to purposely offend? Should the non-believers start a thread and state that it's for non-believers only, would then the believers get offended? Are we in back in elementary school now and we are the odd kids that were not invited to the cool kids club? LOL Yes, I'm joking but it IS quite odd.

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      yes and no  !?   In on sense , it would be like if in the automotive section, someone started a thread,  "for Ford enthusiast?,  and that thread got took over with Chevy enthusiast, and all of the ford enthusiast got "Skeared OFF" fr5om posting on it.

          but I really do understands both sides of the argument. And agree with-em.   
      Both the ford vs Chevy  and the theist vs Atheist being able to present their case.

    2. aguasilver profile image88
      aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Personally I see nothing wrong with starting a topic that focusses on one specific type of person.

      Why must we all HAVE to be so very 'inclusive'?

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        MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly, we don't. But why the need separate to support one specific way of thinking only? Just seems kind of odd to me, but that's my opinion, of course.

        1. psycheskinner profile image80
          psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I see no problem.  If the assumption of the topic is beleif in God it just makes sense to have that discussion between people who accept the assumption.

          Otherwise is become yet another thread banging on about god versus no god.  And we have enough of those.

          I see it as no different from having a thread about knitting for knitters.

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            MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            True that. I bet that, no matter who a specific thread is for, someone is going to come along and throw some crunk their way, especially when the thread is about religion or any type of 'way of thinking' aspect. Perhaps that is why I see it odd, I expect that the effort could be futile for them? Yes, that is likely it, I suppose.

        2. aguasilver profile image88
          aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Basically, from what I remember when I was visiting the forums, there are always some 'non believers' who see it as their duty to disrupt any discussion on spiritual aspects, in particular Christian discussion.

          I have not seen the OP where they call for non believers to stay away, but I guess it's someone who wanted to have a peaceful discussion without planned disruption.

          The answer of course is to either avoid the particular topic, or ignore the request and seek to participate either disruptively, or preferably with a desire to engage honestly in the discussion.

          1. psycheskinner profile image80
            psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Indeed.  I see it in both directions and it stops discussions from achieving any level of depth or detail.

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Perhaps I should start a thread about the absence of God and ask that no believers join. How long do you think it would take before someone showed up with threats of hellfire?

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                MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I had this very thought myself, Rad Man. I agree.

              2. psycheskinner profile image80
                psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                If you are willing to respect the request when made by others, sure--why not?  Assuming you actually have something worthwhile for us to discuss.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I think you insulted me twice in that post.

                  I haven't commented in that forum.

                  I may not have anything of interest to discuss.

                  1. psycheskinner profile image80
                    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    The comment was not specifically about you or an insult.  It was a statement about reciprocity.  That is, excluding threads should have a purpose and be respected regardless of who is included or excluded.

                    Feel free to report it and see if an objective reader sees an insult in there.

      2. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "Why must we all HAVE to be so very 'inclusive'?"

        Because much of christianity makes you, them and us EX-clusive.

  5. SpanStar profile image61
    SpanStarposted 3 years ago

    Mankind has been against God since Adam and Eve.

    God has given mankind dominion over the planet and how has mankind dealt with this responsibility? Do we not lie, do we not steal, do we not torture, do we not wage war, are we not greedy, are we not selfish, do we not ignore God's 10 Commandments.

    With all the evil mankind does does the rains still come, does the sun still shine, does gravity still work even as we shake our fists at God.

    There are those who do not believe in God and probably never will so what would be the point in having them disrupt a forum where there are those who do believe?

  6. Ericdierker profile image81
    Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago

    My name is Eric Dierker and you are speaking of my forum. What is a "believer"? It is you. I hope that you at least believe in you. I do.

    I put that in there for a specific reason. Some folks see "believers" and they get all anti religion. I have been preaching for years now --- you know what my religion is? None. I do not buy into that crap. Me and my people get together around noon on Sunday. And we sing cool songs and we hug each other. And we eat together and check in with each other to make sure we be doing fine.
    Some of us know Jesus,,,, some do not. We center our discussion on the best selling book of all times. And we talk about how to be better people and help others more. We chip in some money for operations and to help others. We laugh a lot. I do not get paid except in hugs and love.
    I teach and preach to young people about how awesome they are. About how much us older people love them and that they should pass that on.
    Oh I read the Gospel and can quote verse and passage. But my most fervent prayer is that I serve.

    Now God may speak to you. He only speaks to me through the beauty and wonder of life that includes Science and Law and Nature. Or maybe She -- go figure, why would God have a sex? ;-)

    I believe in mankind. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow -- though that is illogical. I believe our children will make this place a better place -- again illogical.

    I am not a boogy man, although I love to boogie.  I hope you get my point. My door is open at 908 Parkbrook street down here a few miles from Tijuana.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Not true. You got religion big time Preacher Man.

      But - did you just invite believers in reason to your forum? Under the guise of pretending it was not just for believers in god.................... wink

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Hugs and smiles my friend Mark. Don't you think we should argue. I mean how boring is it we all just love our steaks the same way. BORING!!!

        When you and I reach full agreement --- Lordy oh Lordy that would be frightening.
        You know damned well my door is always open to your cantakorous rotten self --- hihihihi

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          LOL Didn't understand that answer I'm afraid. wink

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Let me be clear. My name is Eric Dierker. Anyone is welcome anywhere I am. And if someone makes them not welcome. We will deal.

            So perhaps I should apologize. Mia Culpa for even suggesting "believers only" --- I no for a fact you believe in logic.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No worries. It did seem a little odd to start a thread excluding a group of people to preach that we are all god's children. big_smile

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Alright alright -- stupid me. thank you for pointing out my mistake 101 times hihihihi

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      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Eric, the best selling book of all time... the Bible... I assume you believe it to be true? So when the Bible refers to God as He and Him and the Father etc... and never in the feminine, is it hard for you to imagine it to be factual that He is of the male persuasion? If you see this very basic thing as a gray area, do you doubt much of God's Word? And if you doubt much of God's word, how do you then trust Him with your soul?

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Beth37 -- isn't that strange. I got this Mensa head on my shoulders. I got full degrees in several subjects. I can call out the scientific name of plants and birds and I have touched 2 billion year old rock in the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I let doctors beat my cancer, not Jesus. And yet here I am a preacher man. I have lived on four continents and seen the worst depravity of man. The only constant I have found is love. And Jesus is the epitome of that. God is a man???? funny huh. How can God have sex??? crazy. But we call ships "she" and I thought dogs were boys and cats girls until I was 7. Man is limited in language. OK. I do not trust God with my soul. I trust love, and to me God is not a gray haired old man on thrown --- God is in you. And I trust you.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I'm forced to agree. I don't like it but I gotta do what I gotta do.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I must be going crazy out here.

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          MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Awesome, Eric smile

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        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The bible.

        Beth, do you believe it to be true? 

        If you were, then, made in God's image, and you are indeed female, then does God (as spirit) exist as BOTH masculine and feminine?

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          MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          +1

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I didn't have a problem with the title. I found your opening statement disturbing. That's all.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Emile, I meant to disturb. We are so complacent. I do not care if you are purple and hate God. I need you to get up and help others speak

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          If you say so.

    4. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds like Heaven to me, Eric.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Jonny -- how are we going to get smarter if we do not challenge the make up of our thoughts?
        I think Emile is kind of my new hero,, Getting right down to the core of something I may have done wrong. Christians like to say "lift up" well I think "tear down" is just as important. These foundations we build are just as often stumbling blocks.
        Religion is not what God is about. If you believe in math. Cool. If you believe in Descartes, power to you. I believe in Love. So silly but I can smash your fist with my face!!!
        My point is clear. Love something. I do not even care what. And then we can move from there. But if you cannot even love yourself. I must just breath in and breath out and move on.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I'm confused by your reference to me, since your statement supporting it makes absolutely no sense.  My primary distaste for your thread was that it came off as if you were lifting yourself up in your own mind by pointing out transgressions against humanity that didn't matter, since you were loved by a higher power; inviting others to join in and share their moments where they've trampled on another human being and been subsequently forgiven by the same higher power.

          The problem with this is twofold.

          One. Few believe their actions are wrong. They look at wrongs done as reactions to wrongs done.  Belief allows the individual to think a higher power agrees with ego driven reasoning. You become a Pontius Pilate. Others are the catalyst for your decisions.

          Two. The acceptance of one's status of not being accountable for one's actions rarely, if ever,   causes the individual to believe others are not responsible for their actions. By claiming to be a sinner in an attempt to compel others to list their own transgressions we set the stage to judge one another. To weigh and measure, after stating that we have already passed a verdict that they will be found lacking. But, hey, that's the beauty because it doesn't matter what we do since a higher power doesn't care what we do to others.

          The whole thing is unrealistic. Our actions matter here and now. Hope of heaven is no excuse for washing one's hands of responsibility. Claiming to love, when not taking steps to rectify actions and mitigate damage caused is paying lip service to the word for everyone but self. You know this somewhere deep inside. So do others. So, all of the claims made are a facade created. A facade only the individual accepts. It causes a disconnect that is unhealthy for the individual and all relationships built on that facade.

          All groups gathered in thanks of an unhealthy facade attempt to expand the facade to encompass the group. This, too, is unrealistic because you've already set the stage to judge, and find lacking. Even if you truly overlook the transgressions, you are operating within faulty parameters. It's no one's place to judge.  But, if the group succeeds they create a new belief. We now have judge and jury. You guys turn on others. Passing judgment on those outside of the group. Patting each other on the back for not taking responsibility. Feeding on each other's need for redemption, without action.

          I would respect religion if it respected the individual.  If it  compelled the practitioner to honestly evaluate your actions and take an active role in relationships. To ensure each human is treated with respect. That you gave others the same consideration you give yourself. But, although that is its stated goal, it can't.  Because it is built on shaky ground. It gives you a free ticket to wash your hands of responsibility from the outset. 

          That's the way I see it, by reading the posts of the devoutly religious. If this isn't realistic, then the devoutly religious aren't doing a good job of explaining their beliefs.

  7. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Romans 3:4
    "May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.""

    Either the Bible is true or it isn't. If you do not believe the Bible to be inspired word of God, you only preach your own beliefs. You are fallible, you should not tell ppl what you believe is the truth. That's all I have to say.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So - as the bible has been proven false on many, many occasions and is obviously fallible, what is your point?

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Mark -- you want it both ways --- "you cannot prove anything in the Bible" and then "the Bible has been proven false". Well what is it going to be? Is the Bible provable or not? If it is let us get to work. If it is not, let us wax philosophical. How can the Bible which you claim is not proof be proven false? Come on man -- you sound like the wife who asks her husband if she looks fat in this dress. Or have you stopped beating your wife yet?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What? Please reread what you wrote and see that it make no sense at all. I can prove many things in the bible to be false. What can you prove to be true?

          Come on man, you sound like a  desperate Preacher Man defending an untenable belief system. wink

    2. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry Beth I must have missed that Sunday School class, where somebody taught us that the Bible is like a text book. "study it and you will be quizzed on Monday and if you get an answer wrong -- detention for you".
      Well I just went and checked, nope - out of my twelve hard copies I could not find one that says -- This book is God. My Latin Vulgate seems to say the opposite -- but my wife's Vietnamese seems to come close.
      We are not ruled by the written word. We are directed by the Living Word. What is the Word? Nope -- wrong question. Who is the Word? Yep that one works.
      The Bible teaches us. It does not rule us. Pontuous Pilate ruled. The King of Kings taught. I have my left hand on a Bible right now and it was hard to type with one hand --- do you get that metaphor? If I carry my Bible around with both hands,,, what hand do I have left to give you water? What hand will carry the child? What hand will feed? The Bible is a servant not the Lord.

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
        2 Tim 2:15

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. Timothy 2:11-15

          Another hell-bound sinner going against the word of god. sad

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I submit to the authority God has placed over me. I am not to submit to false teachers, and I would prefer to use the Bible to share truth as opposed to my own words. Thank you. smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Ah - the word of god does not apply to you and you are free to break it. Save me a seat by the fire. wink

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

                “Now have come the salvation and the power
                    and the kingdom of our God,
                    and the authority of his Messiah.
                For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
                    who accuses them before our God day and night,
                    has been hurled down.

                Rev 12:10

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I know - the word of god does not apply to you. I got it - no need to keep breaking the word, you have already earned a place in hell. Save me a seat by the fire. sad

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
                    Jn 10:28

                2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Words taken out of context, from writings that you haven't a hope in hell getting to understand.

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I get your point but maybe if we try real hard we can understand.

                  2. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I wonder if that could be considered opinion. Well here I go... spouting off again... everybody talks, everybody talks, everybody talks... too much.

              2. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Mark, I gotta tell you. I do not get Bible thumping women -- except my wife who will thump me with anything ;-) I get that and take out the garbage.
                But if a woman espouses bible literal ism then she must shut up in public. Old testament - maybe not --- Paul and the New - No question,,, shut up in public.
                Personally I think those verses are instructional as to unity of a house. Remember culture at that time made a wife a man's property --- too hard for me to wrap my brain around. I understand that places like Darfur still have such customs and even laws. I do not want to own my children or my wife,,, for sure.
                But for a woman to tell us the Bible must be taken literally is just the most oxymoronic thing I can conceive. She must admit to no authority. It simply cannot be both ways.

                1. 0
                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psalms 12:6-7)

                  1. 0
                    MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Beth, how can you sit and post certain pick and choose Bible quotes obviously chosen so that you can victimize yourself when that very Bible tells you that, as a woman, you should be quiet? I do not understand this type of common thinking. WHEN does it ALL apply? This is what perplexes me so much about some Christians. They can quote the Bible all day long when it is strategically meant to put them in a favorable light yet choose to COMPLETELY ignore when someone (in this case Mark Knowles) posts a very Bible quote that also is a Bible "truth" and applies to the situation but it goes totally ignored and then it's followed by that person posting even more pick and choose strategically favorable Biblical quotes! To say that this common practice from some Christians causes much confusion for me is an understatement.

                2. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  To be fair - it is not just the women who don't practice what they preach, but - the bible is clear. Women are to be silent and not preach or teach at men.

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Act 18:26
                    "He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."


                    The Bible must be taken as a whole, not dissected into parts that stand alone.

            2. JMcFarland profile image92
              JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              God has placed special authority over you that contradicts and supersedes the words of scripture?  Or do you just not like Paul?  Do you braid your hair and wear jewelry too?

              Or is it your position that you can pick and choose which verses you like to follow and just throw the rest out on a whim while blasting other believers that do the same thing for not following the word because they pick different verses than you do?

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

                Eph 5:22

                1. JMcFarland profile image92
                  JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So you choose to submit to your husband (now at least), and that makes it okay to ignore the other rule?  you can cherry pick one rule at a time?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It is one of the reasons I rejected this belief system in the first place., None of these believers think the rules apply to them. This one is being just plain rude now. But - that is how this religion works - blast them down with scripture until you are the only one standing. They have no moral guidelines - that is the real issue. sad

    3. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "You are fallible, you should not tell ppl what you believe is the truth. That's all I have to say."

      I know it's taken out of context, but just heed your own words, Beth!  What's good for the Goose, is good for the Gander.

  8. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Mt 5:1-11
    And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

    3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
        For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Blessed are those who mourn,
        For they shall be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek,
        For they shall inherit the earth.
    6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
        For they shall be filled.
    7 Blessed are the merciful,
        For they shall obtain mercy.
    8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
        For they shall see God.
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
        For they shall be called sons of God.
    10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
        For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

  9. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    I need to do the dishes now. I'll catch up to you later. smile

    "...to be busy at home [or workers at home], to be kind [or good], and to be submissive to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.” Titus 2:5

  10. 0
    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    Read through the thread. What's up Beth? I've never seen you cut and paste so much. Don't make me start cutting and pasting from my favorite book in response.

  11. EncephaloiDead profile image62
    EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago

    So, which is a better world to live in? One where we are all sinners not worthy of anything or one in which we all try to find the good in one another and treat people as if they are worthy of something.

    I would choose the latter.

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Ditto.

  12. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    1 John 2:1-2
    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      ??  Why do you keep repeating words...words that were a compromise between a group of men reading other words written by other men claiming to have heard the story through a half dozen other generations?  A group that, in their compromise efforts, changed the words to be acceptable to everyone there and then either included them in their book or, if they could not compromise or find a translation that everyone could accept, refused to include it?

      Would not the words of Nicodemus (which are actually his own penmanship) be more appropriate?  Or Socrates?

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Wilderness,,,,,,
        I do not get literalness. Maybe i am daft but what you say is true. Only intent can be garnered.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I'm always hesitant to assign even intent of the speaker.  Even if I go to the same bible (with so many translations being used today) and examine it for context I still won't know what the speaker thinks their quote means.

  13. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    2 Peter 1:21
    For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


    2 Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...


    Colossians 3:16
    Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


    Ps. 119:11
    I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.

  14. EncephaloiDead profile image62
    EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago

    I hope some will take notice that there are theists here who don't resort to posting verses from the Bible to insult and disrespect others who don't share our beliefs in order to inflate their own egos, looking down on people with disdain and hatred. It is very unfortunate these so-called Christians have to ruin things for everyone else and provide ample ammunition for the non-believers arsenal.

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      There are few atheists that will take a biblical verse as insulting (except to the person quoting nonsense).  As they are words from people 1500 years dead, and never did have much connection to reality, there isn't much reason to take offense at them.  About all they are good for is proving in an open forum that theists are quite open to using scripture as a bludgeon, but not as a guide to live by.

      Of course, the reason for posting such quotes can be a different story...
      I doubt Beth means to be insulting, but others sometimes do.

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I, also. don't see Beth's writings/quotes as offensive, just sad.   Sad because that "god" she worships is so, so limited, constrained, by her own limited view of the world.   I could never give so much credence to a pathetic "god" that excludes me from my rightful place in the wonderful tapestry of this world. 

        There is a hymn sung in the christian churches, "Just As I Am, Without One Plea."   Beth, when are you and all christians of all denominations going to accept me, Just As I Am, without placing some kind of judgment on me first?   If you think that "God" (upper case intended) can accept me, just as I am, how can you start placing conditions upon your acceptance of me?  If you do indeed insist upon applying such conditions, then cut that hymn from the book and question your own motives.

        Any one who sits in judgment must be in possession of all the facts.   The only person in possession of all the facts regarding my life is my self.  Thus, when I go into my secret "self," and face my "self," (my life), honestly and fully, then I can come to face a true judgment.   I see THIS  as the center and focus of all that is written in that "gospel."  It is not there for me to judge you, or for you to judge me.  Hence my rejection of the christian religion in favour of using deeper and more honest paths like that of Buddhism and the true, deep following of a spiritual practice on the Christ, which is synonymous with what the Buddha taught.

        If anything can be understood from that story of people hanging a man up and killing him, it was because he was directing them to look inside their selves and face their hypocrisy. That was something they were unwilling to do.... so kill him instead!

      2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
        EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The behavior of someone who quotes those verses is terrible, they are meant to insult whether people take them as insulting or not. The words may be old, but the use of them is current. I see no difference in that behavior and Fred Phelps.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          One wonders if Fred Phelps has ever examined his own conscience deeply and honestly, without shying away from his truth.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Think hard. Fred is not someone who thinks only lightly. So we appreciate it. We must not hold deep resentment toward anyone who thinks and publishes. These are the true warriors. As are you Jonny and you Encephalodead. This here is as good as it gets. Rise up and stay up. You folks are the juice that feeds our lives.

            1. psycheskinner profile image80
              psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You think a man who pickets the funerals of soldiers and crime victims is a deep thinker worthy of respect?

              I disagree.  He is scum.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I know who the bastard is and if he walked into my house i would soon kill him as talk to him.
                Is that clear enough.
                But he adds to my thoughts. At least he adds to our thoughts ---- 99.9 do not.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Don't take this the wrong way, but are you capable of voicing a firm opinion? You defend the guy as if all opinions have merit, then you claim the person you have just defended as a person with an opinion of merit would be murdered (by you) if he walked in your house. That appears to be deep resentment you claim no one should feel.

                  You say no one should hold deep resentment toward someone who thinks and publishes. Everyone thinks. And, in the broadest sense, pretty much everyone publishes... yet you claim 99.9% don't. Ignoring the arrogance of the statement, do you actually know what you think, or are you scrambling to say whatever you think might be accepted by everyone you run across? Either way, your side of that exchange lacks substance.

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
              EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That is much better.

  15. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Never to insult. Thank you Wilderness.
    His words are simply better than mine. I love the Bible. It is full of truth, love, wisdom and history. If I never spoke another word, but only quoted scripture, I would be a better person... of course only if my intents were good. If I used the Bible as a weapon to hurt, I would be a fool. Say whatever you want about me. I will always be open and honest with you. If you choose to see me as a villain for loving God and His word with all my heart and having no doubt in His goodness... that is your prerogative. I do not control you, nor do I wish to. You are free to think, do and speak as you wish.

    "If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don’t love, I’m nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate."
    I Cor 13:1

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
      Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      - nice.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        No, it is not nice.  It sounds like it is, but it's not.

        Beth, while you find solace, comfort and love in scripture, the people you are speaking to do not.  They find cold, empty words from an old, old book, compiled by politicians in an effort to spread their power and today mostly used to evangelize and brow beat people with.

        Your own words, from the heart, are worth ten times what those empty quotations are.  Once in a while the emotion comes through (the one given here from I Cor 13:1 for instance) but mostly your own thoughts from you are worth far, far more.

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I understand that is your perspective.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I hear  a rusty gate creaking. sad

    3. EncephaloiDead profile image62
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Using that verse does not make you a better person and they are not full of truth, love and wisdom, they are full of hatred and disdain for the "unbelieving" - do you not see that word there? Are you blind? Only someone with the intent to hurt would quote that verse on a public forum.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        - good grief!   Now you know a smidgeon of what Jesus felt, Beth. If he can endure what he did, so can those who believe in what he taught.
        ...which was salvation for all.
        - Jesus would add, " for those have ears to hear," ( which to me, meant the willingness to accept the information he was delivering from God, who respects each individual's free will, ((whether they believe that or not!))
        - and for those who have "eyes to read" the bible...
        and trying-to-be-helpful-comments in HubPages forum discussions.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Ah - the persecution card. lol lol

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            So, cut Beth some slack, already!

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Actually - you were the one playing the persecution card. Little wonder this religion causes so many fights. sad

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I am playing the persecution card because it seems to me you are unjustifiably persecuting someone of good intent. What has she said that was so terrible exactly? How did she lump anyone with anyone? She was defending herself. I do not think she was on the offense.
                Quotes please. She is not one to be a creaking gate. (I take that to be her point.)
                Right, Beth?

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks for asking. Here is the quote to refresh your short memory. Emphasis mine to show the lumping.

                  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremonger, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
                  Rev 21:8

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    - your issue is with the Bible.

                    Don't tell me my memory is short. I will not respond to rudeness from you in the future. Why would I? Why would anyone.

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
          EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What Beth doesn't know, and obviously you don't know, either, is how others feel when they are being lumped together with murderers and rapists just because they don't share Beth's beliefs.

          One thing is for sure though, I have learned that the "unbelievers" here have the integrity to turn the other cheek when they are attacked that way from those whose intent is to hurt others.



          There is nothing helpful in quoting that verse here on these forums, it was intended to hurt others. Period.

          Beth should openly retract that verse and apologize to our "unbelieving" colleagues.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            She owes nothing to your allies who refuse accept the verification of what she believes to be real.
            Nothing.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
              EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Then, I can only assume you too lump together non-believers with rapists and murderers, yes?

              My ally is God. Whether or not He is accepted by folks does not give you or Beth the right to be accusers and usurpers.

              "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone"

              So, stop throwing boulders at good, upstanding people who have more morals and ethics in their pinky fingers than you two put together.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                If I had known it would cause people to start dropping boulders on each other I don't think I would have started the thread.  Beth has always appeared to have good intentions. I'm not sure what the point is of all the scripture quoting, but she doesn't appear to be the type who insults. I'm sure she simply doesn't get your point. Not sure why, but it happens. I'm not certain what purpose might be served by the insults you've offered, but I doubt they will have the effect you hoped. Unless you are simply attempting to hurt someone's feelings with an insult you couldn't possibly know to be true. If that's what you are going for. Well done. I'd say you've put yourself into the same category you are acting as if you are offended by.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You can't be serious, you're defending her now???

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You seem to be an intelligent person and I like what I've read of your posts. But, someone quoting what they consider to be scripture shouldn't cause someone else who considers the same words to be scripture to react so vehemently with unfounded insults.  Why, if one is being unkind, should another be unkind? Both actions reflect the same callous disregard for the feelings of others. If both cite belief as justification and both imply the other isn't as good a believer as the offended party, it reflects back onto the base of belief first, the individual second. What is the outcome?

              2. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Questions for EncephaloiDead:
                * Your ally is God? (You come across as someone who does not believe in God. No one is throwing boulders at you or atheists, however.)
                * What am I accusing or usurping directly or even indirectly?
                * How did I accuse you of not having morals and ethics?
                *    "      "      "        "          "      "  not being upstanding?
                ( If you believe in God, you are very confused/confusing)  Atheists, as everyone knows, have a code of common sense ethics and morals as these do not come only from religion. No one here alluded to what you are indicating and accusing them of. No one.
                Apparently, you are jumping to conclusions. 
                What is your actual dilemma?

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  ...do you believe in God, but not the Bible? perhaps you are Muslim?

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Are you somewhat confused that I don't behave like you and Beth, that I don't lump together other people with murderers and rapists, that I don't quote verses from the Bible and then dishonestly tell others they should deal with God?

  16. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Thanks Emile, I appreciate it. I do not respond to statements that are simply designed to create drama. Ppl twist words and meaning constantly on these threads which is why I chose to quote scripture... that way if someone wants to twist, they can take God on. I am but a vessel, flawed and sinful. Some days I am the person I want to be... the person God wants me to be, sometimes I fall miserably short. Bring up my past... I am forgiven. Bring up my future, I am assured. Malign my character, I aim to share the truth. I believe we are all alike... we suffer, we hurt, we have joys and great loss. I choose God as my hope. I am allowed, and I am allowed to say it. Thanks for allowing me to share all that.

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      YOU are the one who posted that verse, not God. Try taking responsibility for YOUR actions and apologize to those whom you have attacked for no reason at all other than to start fights.



      No, we are nothing like you. You share no truths.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        If you keyboard like that to me, I, for one, will not keyboard back. Simple as that.

    2. 0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Don't be mistaken. I understand where the insult lies and I have been hurt, on occasion, when the scripture is offered up in my face. But, I think I understand why you don't see how unkind it is. If you don't mean it as insult, don't understand it is insult, then I can't reasonably be offended by your actions.

      I do think, being the kind person you appear to be, there will come a day when you will open your mind and heart to be able to understand how the insinuation of that passage is not in line with the true meaning of the spirit of the Christian concept and you might come to regret so easily throwing it about.

    3. 0
      MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Beth, I'm not sure you quite see that when you say you quote scripture in the forum so that the people you directing the scriptures toward has to then take on God, you do understand that is not actually true, right? How is it you feel comfortable in doing this? With all due respect to you, if you are posting it, you are responsible for saying it. When you do this, you as a human then, are taking the word of God and placing it in a strategic for you situation and then you, as a human, are then accusing people of arguing with God? God did not post all the scriptures in the forum, you did. So how could/would anyone be arguing with God? I don't think God would appreciate that, actually. Scripture was not meant (in my opinion) to be something that one can hide behind just so you can feel free to offend, duck behind what the Bible says, and use it against others when it suits you.

      While I think I understand that you may not quite see how you sometimes come across to others, maybe it is time that you try else people may continue to think that you may be posting scripture just to instigate arguments. It comes across as pompous and judgmental when scripture is posted to simply point out how, in your opinion, others fall short of God's word. Frankly, everyone falls short. If you are directing scripture toward others just to make them see their wrongs, to hurt, and/or offend, it is YOU that has to take responsibility for using scripture in that way, not God.

  17. Zelkiiro profile image84
    Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago

    Oh God, terrible music is creeping into this thread, too. I'll have to counteract this plague with some actual good music:

    Fate/Zero OST II - You are My King

    1. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      unkind

  18. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago

    -when I walk my dogs, certain other dogs in their yards bark ferociously at my dogs as we walk by. My dogs respond in the same way. I mean ferociously!  But, if all these same dogs see each other in the dog park, they will sniff each other and be friendly! What inspires that fierce barking in their yards and on their leashes, do you suppose?

    1. 0
      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I know the answer, but Ive already said too much.
      I'll leave it to someone else cause Im all cool like that.

  19. 0
    Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago

    Oh wow.. I popped in here to see what's going on in this thread and see a royal rumble free for all argument among my fellow believers.. Scriptures being thrown all about (a lot used out of context or hidden behind masking what others really want to say).. OOH I wanna take a shot at this and throw out my own scriptures. It's rare that I quote scriptures in this manner, but in this case I think it fits..  Coming from the Amplified Bible. And if we believe all of the Bible, then we must also believe this scripture and hopefully we can start to change our approach some.. Now this is strictly from the bible, cut and pasted (no water)

    2 Timothy 2:23-25 (Amplified version)

    23 But refuse (shut your mind against, have nothing to do with) trifling (ill-informed, unedifying, stupid) controversies over ignorant questionings, for you know that they foster strife and breed quarrels.
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome  (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace] ; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.
    25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],


    In short, we shouldn't be arguing with or attacking one another (nor the atheists for that matter). We must be nice to all regardless of how they act and when we offer correction do it with gentleness..

    In short.. Respect others regardless of their actions.


    Please remember this: We cannot control what others do and how they act. We CAN control how we respond to their actions and at the end of the day, we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      We cannot control the actions of others.  How true!  And to not be quarrelsome.  Wouldn't that make things so much nicer?  We're all working on it, I think.

      Good thoughts, Deepes.

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I try.. I don't always get it right myself.. But I try, Mo

        1. 0
          Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Same, same.  We're all learning together, I think.

          1. 0
            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And of course we have our atheist friends like JM, Mark, and Rad Man here to offer something witty that reminds us when we slide over that line

    2. EncephaloiDead profile image62
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Dear Sir Deepes, I profusely apologize for my conduct here, it is not the kind of behavior I wish to portray, but it saddens me deeply when our brethren friends say and do things that only give reason to offend those we wish to show a lot of respect, our non-believer friends. If we, as someone mentioned earlier, used the Bible to bludgeon others over the head instead of showing respect for both the Bible and our non-believer friends, then we should expect they will place a mirror before us and call us hypocrites who cause fights.

      Is that what we want?

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You owe me no apologies. You didn't offend me personally. I just saw what was going on with all of the posted scripture and posted some of my own. If you want to apologize to anyone, apologize to God as well as the fellow believers that you may have offended and the nonbelievers that you might have offended as well.



        Then don't. Nobody can make you angry. You choose how you wish to respond to what others say. But remember this: How others act is between them and God. How you respond is between you and God. None of us here will be there when you go in front of him (If.... out of respect).



        Me as well. This is a respectable statement, IMO



        Not me.. This is why I'm as careful as possible when I respond here. I may not always get it right, but I never intend to be blantantly rude when I am initiating the exchange. I'm not excusing my responses if they are less than respectful, but sometimes it happens.

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
          EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I have no problem apologizing to anyone I have offended, although, my request was meant to ask someone else to apologize for openly offending others. Their refusal to do so and the fact they stand by the verses they post is what is so infuriating.

          If people want to preach the gospel here, that is their prerogative, but to openly offend others with verses that are posted with the intent to offend, that is something completely different.

          But, from now on, I'll let those who wish to offend others openly do so and bite my tongue.

          It's kind of like the vast majority of Muslims remaining quiet and passive when their fundamentalist brethren kill innocent people. Why shouldn't the vast majority be infuriated with their actions and do something about it?

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It does make you think, doesn't it?

            1. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Thinking is overrated!!!!

              1. 0
                Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Highly.

              2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Is the Past Tense of "I think,"  "I thunk?"  wink

                1. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Answering that question would require the aforementioned overrated thinking thing wink

          2. 0
            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You don't have to bite your tongue, but there are ways of responding without going against your nature. You don't have to join people who are being harsh by being harsh back to them Like the scripture says be gentel in correction.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
              EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Should we then use gentle correction on folks like Fred Phelps when he behaves harshly? I don't see that at all.

              1. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I understand what you mean, however, if we believe in the God and the bible and we are to be doers as well as hearers of the word then this scripture applies to dealing with all peoples. Now of course the bible also makes mention of shaking the dust from your sandals when your attempts are rejected. But as according to 2 Timothy, it should all still be done in gentleness.

                Let me ask you this.. would it not be contradictory (my preferred word rather than using the harsh H-word) if we choose when and where we are to apply this scripture? We apply it in some cases (such as a rational discussion) but throw it out in heated debate where we feel insulted by the person we are debating?

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The point is 'if' we believe in the bible, which is part of the problem here. You and I both know, hopefully, that we can't believe that everything written in the bible is true, which presents it's own issue in that we are hypocrites if we do and hypocrites if we don't. If we do, then we must believe in such verses as the one in question, but we both know that verse is not true, that those who are non-believers do not behave like murderers and rapists, so we are forced to reject that verse as not being true. There are other verses we also cannot believe that talk about slavery or killing others. Atheists are quick to point these out to us and they have every right to do so. We are obliged to respond in kind and explain ourselves, but I rarely if ever see any honest responses. I certainly can't come up with any kind reasonable response to such verses that so obviously contradict reality.

                  If Beth were indeed a good person talking from the heart, she too would never believe such a verse had any merit or validity, and would never post it anywhere. But instead, she stands by those words, which means she believes them, even though they are not valid in any way. Atheists soon chime in with other verses that are obviously not true, but Beth is suddenly silent because she knows only too well she would never behave as the verse commands her to behave.

                  So again, why post that verse in the first place if not for the intent to attack others?

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

                    Rev 21:8


                    Where does it say in this verse that non-believers behave like those mentioned? This is why it is good to have a knowledgeable teacher to help you understand the Bible, such as a preacher or someone who has studied the Bible extensively and understands interpretation.

                    Moses murdered. He loved God and made a rash, horrible decision. Many men who love God have slept with women of ill repute. Their desire became too great and they did not submit to God in that moment. As I have told you already... mankind belongs to this list of sinners, because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I said that, do you remember? Do you remember me clarifying this point a dozen pages ago? Do you remember me saying *I* was one of these sinners and that's why I need Jesus? I cannot be forgiven of my sin without asking for God's forgiveness. This is another biblical truth.

                    Now... you will do one of two things I suspect. You will either continue on this ridiculous claim that neither I, nor the Bible makes. Or you will find a new attack and begin on that. It is never ending because you do not seek discussion, you only seek to ridicule. When I see that tactic from any believer or non believer, I simply don't respond. I love discussion. I detest foolish debates designed to encourage insult, argument and ill will. I would like to take my leave as I have seen very little discussion on these threads and that saddens me.

                  2. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You chose to be offended and see her words as an attack. You should take your percentage of the responsibility and stop attacking her in response. Those words can be seen as an insult, yes. But, the passage does not imply that unbelievers are rapists, murderers or whoremongers. It simply says that their end fate will be the same. I have to pay taxes, as do hookers, stock brockers and lawyers. That doesn't make me any of the other things. It simply means I have to pay taxes.

                    And, I'm afraid you don't have to believe everything written in that book is the word as handed down by God. Some may, some may not. Nowhere does it imply that anything written after the end of the Old Testament is to be taken as scripture. Some chose to, some do not.

                    You've been beating a dead horse for, probably, long enough. Move on. Beth doesn't mean what you want that passage to mean. She has already explained this to you. You can't browbeat her into apologizing for your interpretation. This is beginning to look as if you are a Hubber who has simply changed their name and have come back in with a bone to pick already in your craw.

    3. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      In short, I must BE  the change the I want to happen. 

      (Then stop the pressure.... let it happen if it will.....my opinion here)

      1. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Let me tweak that a little.. My actions must reflect the words that I speak so there is as little contradiction between the two as possible, especially when it comes to the Bible

  20. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    EncephaloiDead
    "If people want to preach the gospel here, that is their prerogative, but to openly offend others with verses that are posted with the intent to offend, that is something completely different."

    The Bible is beautiful, it also carries with it history which is gut wrenching, truths that are sometimes hard to take and stories of ppl both good and evil. I never once intended to offend. I didn't even intend to stir up waves. I thought surely if I only spoke the word of God your only argument could be with God. I was actually trying to get out of the way and let the scripture speak for itself, not inject my own opinions. It is interesting to me how ppl (Believer or non) interpret others intents and words and criticize to the point that these threads always come to no matter what the intentions of the poster. If you have found a way to be offended, I submit that it was your desire to be offended and if that is your quest then there is no room for discussion. Therefore, once again, I will bow out and leave you all to it.

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      About a dozen posts back is a very good explanation from MysticMoonlight about taking responsibility for what you post here. Please read it.

      I understand the Bible has some very beautiful literature. However, we can seriously argue about what are truths and history written there. Most certainly that which is highly debatable in truth is the verse in question that you posted.

      Surely, you can't be serious to tell me you weren't trying to stir things up or not offend someone by posting it? There would be no other plausible reason to post such a verse other than to stir things up. Shifting your responsibility for posting it onto God's shoulders just adds insult to injury.

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        EncephaloiDead, I am not criticizing you for any postings you are placing here.... they stand to be judged along with any other posts from any other person.
        However, I see you have only been here in HubPages for a short time.   As yet you have not chosen to disclose yourself,  your agenda or anything of substance.
        You accuse Beth of various things in her posts.  I don't agree with her opinions, quite often.  However, one attribute she has it to speak from her heart.   In that I support her 100% regardless of agreement/disagreement with whatever she says.
        You are being particularly adversarial in relation to her so far.   Any chance of you changing that?  Would you be prepared to "bare" yourself a little?  Before lambasting Beth any further?  smile

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
          EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry, I'm afraid I don't agree posting that verse was from the heart.

      2. 0
        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Beth and I may have a difference of approach when it comes to the Bible, but I will say that her heart is genuinely in the right place when it comes to her expression of her beliefs as well as the Bible. The trouble that we all face is that at times, our approach does not always match our intentions (based on the perception and values of others). It is this perceived difference between our approach and our intentions that leads to misunderstandings as well as potential conflicts that can either be ironed out or blown out of proportion.

        Beth is good people though. Just like anyone here though, she gets tired of some of the stuff that goes on in the forums. You are new here and you were upset about what you had seen yourself, remember?

    2. Zelkiiro profile image84
      Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No it's not.

      Its English translations are all stiff and convoluted, and its subject matter regardless of language is comprised of encouraging genocide, the celebration of slavery, mandatory segregation based on arbitrary things like race and nationality, condoning murder and rape in the name of a deity, and deceptive double-speak designed to keep those foolish enough to follow its doctrine eternally paralyzed with fear and paranoia.

  21. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

    Wow, I have such a boring life for a Christian.

    No enemy ever attacks me, so I don't guess I've ever needed any power of God to defeat anybody.

    Then again, I've never plotted an assassination attempt roll

    There are no empires that I feel an overwhelming desire to bring down brick by brick.

    Then again, I've had no need to converse with "Indonesian Authorities"

    You see, I actually control my own life for the most part. Christians can do that. At least ones that don't involve themselves with bribing officials in the Philippines. You seem to control your own life, which seems fraught with Agent 007 type dangers and righteous struggles on some spiritual plain, as well.

    Let me know when Jesus pulls up in his jet-pack for the battle against the great dark lord. I'll bake him some muffins or something.

    Edit: This didn't post as a response to aquasilvers post even though it obviously is. My fault I'm sure.

    1. aguasilver profile image88
      aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Melissa,

      "No enemy ever attacks me," - I would guess that´s a pleasant thing, but it possibly means that you represent no threat to ´the enemy´? - which is also OK, most Christians are no threat because they do not do what we are commanded to do.... bring Gods Kingdom to bear on the earth.

      We do that by bringing ourselves and others to the ´fullness of Christ´ which means not just helping others to gain their Kingdom authority in Christ, but to heal the sick, free those ensnared by the enemy, and also oppose the spiritual forces that seek to destroy humanity.

      If you feel no need to participate, so be it.

      The assassination plotted was before my coming to faith, about 1979 I think, when things were a mite bit ´confused´down in SE Asia, at least for me. I mentioned it purely to illustrate that in scripture even thinking about doing something wrong is equal (in Gods eyes) to committing the sin.

      Christ said "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone" which seems to encompass the situation I was illustrating.

      If you have "no empires that I feel an overwhelming desire to bring down brick by brick." I again say bravo! - live a long and peaceful life, when you represent no threat to the enemy, he is well prepared to leave us be in our complacency.

      "You see, I actually control my own life for the most part. Christians can do that. "

      Yes they can, Gods permissive will allows us to run things as we wish, and if that works for you, so be it. My life seems to have been arranged differently.

      "At least ones that don't involve themselves with bribing officials in the Philippines. "

      I was not "bribing officials in the Philippines" please read more carefully, I was refusing to bribe officials in the Philippines, hence we walked away from a costly piece of machinery that had been stolen from the company I represented.

      "You seem to control your own life, which seems fraught with Agent 007 type dangers and righteous struggles on some spiritual plain, as well. "

      Contrarily, my life is not in my control, but whenever it has been in my control, I have needed Christ to rescue me from the mess that follows, not on some 'jet-pack for the battle against the great dark lord´ but in power and strength in the spiritual realm to defeat the power of the enemy.

      I´m sure the muffins will be appreciated, if only we knew when to start baking them?

      1. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The problem is that the rest of us don't wish to participate on the receiving end of what you're commanded to do. It is actually those Christians who don't "bring Gods Kingdom to bear on the earth" are the ones respected by the rest of us. In your own words, they are " no threat".

        1. aguasilver profile image88
          aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Glad you recognize that fact: they are " no threat". ´- it clearly shows the difference between those who understand the enemies ways and those who don´t or choose to ignore them.

          Of course "the rest of us don't wish to participate on the receiving end of what you're commanded to do." for it signals the eventual end of the world system that ´the rest of us´want to maintain.

          I personally have no need for respect from a world system that is opposed to the Kingdom of God, and indeed as scripture tells us that: "The world would love you if you belonged to it; but you don’t—for I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you." John 15:17-19

          I really start to be concerned if and when the world finds me acceptable to them, for we cannot serve two masters...

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            What it shows is that those who attempt to "bring Gods Kingdom to bear on the earth" are a threat to us all.



            Those that attempt to " bring Gods Kingdom to bear on the earth" is what will be end of the world system.



            And, that is why folks who believe such things will be the end of us all.

            1. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Correctly observed, and now that you recognize that clearly, you have accepted that whatever the enemy does, Christ will defeat his efforts, and what is prophesied will happen exactly as stated.

              Glad we have clarity and agreement on that.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The enemy are those who consider themselves spiritual soldiers at war with invisible super enemies. They are the ones who do nothing but cause conflict in the world.

          2. jonnycomelately profile image86
            jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Those who consider themselves "above" the rest of the world by virtue of their perceived relationship to their "god," I see as "up themselves."   Sorry if that is a bit too colloquial for you, but it's the best description I can find right now.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Don't worry Jonny he's just compensating for something that makes him feel small.

            2. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Hi Jonny,

              No way I consider myself: "above" the rest of the world by virtue of their perceived relationship to their "god,"

              The relationship with God actually requires that one adopts a servant attitude.... possibly what is causing you to react is the fact that Christ has all authority over the enemy, and those who belong to Him have been given the commandment to exert His (not their) authority over the enemy and those in the enemies clutches.

              This confounds Churchianity members as much as it does secular folk.

              The fact that God could empower the least of His people to command authority over the power of the enemy makes no logical sense to the spiritually unawakened of humanity.

              Note that is power over the enemy.

              Humanity is NOT the enemy, the spiritual forces that blight human life are the enemy, so no one (except Christ over those who choose to come under His authority) has any Lordship over another human being, and nobody is ´·above ´ another, and to consider that this could be so is in itself accepting a false premise.

              We all (humans) have our calling to follow, some are called to hospitality, others to teach or provide care for those less able to compete, others to do warfare (some physically, others spiritually) to protect those who cannot or will not defend themselves.

              The soldier is no more or less significant than the home maker, so, to start judging people by degrees of imagined merit  or viewed standing is a futile effort that compounds the problems we face, rather than defeats them.

              We enter this world naked and with nothing, we leave the same way.

              The relevant part is how we handle this ´soul school´experience.

              1. 0
                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I've gotta say. I attempt to understand where both the theist and atheist are coming from, but some of your posts really creep me out. Imagining an enemy exists, in order to claim authority over others helps me see how incredibly dangerous religion can be.

                I don't think chalking your attitude up as 'spiritually awakened' does justice to the problem.

                1. aguasilver profile image88
                  aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So what I say ´creeps you out´ on occasion, sorry, cannot apologize for that, what I state is what Christ told us, so if His message creeps you out..... think on that point?

                  Matthew 6:9-13
                  “Pray along these lines: ‘Our Father in heaven, we honor your holy name. We ask that your kingdom will come now. May your will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven.

                  Notice those words.... "as it is in heaven" they are indicative that if it´s not that way in heaven, then it has no right to be that way on earth.

                  Matthew 10:1
                  Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of sickness and disease.

                  That authority has carried forth to ALL of His disciples.

                  John 17:1-3
                  ........For you have given him authority over every man and woman in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. And this is the way to have eternal life—by knowing you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth!

                  John 14:12-13
                  “In solemn truth I tell you, anyone believing in me shall do the same miracles I have done, and even greater ones, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask him for anything, using my name, and I will do it, for this will bring praise to the Father because of what I, the Son, will do for you.

                  Those verses are largely ignored by church members, they, like the secular world find that they ´creep them out´ but Christ gave them to us, they are literally the Gospel, we choose to either let the world have authority over us, or exert Christs authority over the world.

                  The times dictate that we (believers) must start bringing the world under Christ´s authority, at least where we are and with those who will listen.

                  We ask that your kingdom will come now. May your will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven.

                  Those words I cannot apologize for believing, and if it creeps anyone out, they should think long and hard on just what the gospel message actually is, and whether they want to stay under the worlds (enemies) authority, or be under Christs authority.

                  If spiritually demonic enemy forces are beyond our imagination, it´s because they wish to stay that way, and will stay that way unless and until someone awakens spiritually.

                  At that point the spiritual world will seek to draw one to whichever side appeals to the true spiritual nature of the individual.

                  Yes religion is dangerous, it´s dangerous to the ´enemies´ world system, which itself is dangerous to humanity.

                  Only those who love the world have anything to fear from God.

                  Are we clear now?

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Operating under the premise that the accounts, as documented in the New Testament, are true; let's think about it.

                    Everyone saw people possessed, everyone agreed they were possessed and they agreed that the demons were removed. Fast forward to today. You can't produce one example of a documented demon possessing a person. This may not mean it didn't happen then. It may simply mean it doesn't happen now.

                    The disciples may have moved mountains. For all I know Ararat was shifted by a few feet during an experiment by them. You cannot produce one verifiable incident where a mountain has been moved, or a miracle performed, by anyone today.

                    You can imagine anything which lends itself to support your illusions of grandeur; but, you can't provide evidence which will give me cause to agree that these illusions aren't simply that. This, to the impartial observer is clear.

                    So, what is going on here? To someone open to the idea of a Creator, what does this tell me? Basically, times change. Circumstances change. You are looking in the wrong places, for the wrong things at the wrong time and in your zeal you make claims which cannot be supported. Had Jesus wandered around preaching and making ridiculous claims that were not backed up by action no one would remember his name. He would have been mocked wherever he went. What purpose is served by claims which cause him to be mocked today?

                  2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you for explaining to us your beliefs, Aquasilver.  I'm just glad that those beliefs are not part of my life. 
                    One fear I have had for some time is that when enough people "believe" a certain mental construction, then they all agree with one another,  it's like they have found the proof they are seeking.... then it becomes a concerted effort to convert as many people as possible.  Regardless of whether that collective belief system is proven to be applicable to all or not.  A group of individuals all holding the same beliefs can suddenly turn on a minority group and inflict very cruel judgments.   I suspect that was part of what the community of individuals were doing 2000 years ago.... agreeing amongst themselves that a particular "weirdo" was making them feel uncomfortable so they hung him on a cross.
                    Anyway, of course you are free to continue in your beliefs.   It matters not to me.   Just as long I am afforded the same freedom to discard all that you believe.

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I'm really not sure how to respond to that...

        I can tell you that you do seem to have a flare for creative writing, fiction especially.

        I just don't have the ability to suspend reality enough to bite onto the story line here. Of course, I never did like spy vs. spy stories.

        Keep fighting the good fight though. I would imagine battles with unseen entities would liven up a boring life.

  22. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago
    1. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Ah, isn't that cute.

      Picking fights, again, I see, this time a real doozie. Well done.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        lol. Picking fights eh? Oh well... welcome back.

  23. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    I know how dangerous it is to share something personal here. It usually gets torn apart and dissected in an ugly way, but I remembered another special thing that happened to me concerning my daughter that for me, was more proof of God's presence in our lives.

    When we decided to adopt in 2001, I went to a Bible study and shared with my friends one night. They were all happy for us. My closest friend wanted to share her own news. She was pregnant and told us all that night too. Every one said we were "pregnant together." Well, 9 or 10 mos later, her baby was born. We however, waited... and waited. First it was 911, then SARS... (travel to China was blocked) then there was a bottle neck of adoptions that had to go thru because of those two events. It was now 2003 and my friends baby had been in her mothers arms for nearly a year already. After a while I started to feel hopeless. I was sad that we weren't really "pregnant together". I had been very stoic about the whole thing, but finally one day it hit me. I loved this little girl and I wanted her home in my arms. I cried out to God and begged Him to bring her home. I realized what a good thing this was. It helped me see that I wasn't just obeying God's call to adopt this little girl. I *wanted* her. I *loved* her. He wanted to show me she was a gift to me and fulfilled a longing in my heart I didn't even know I had.

    Finally I got the call in July of 2003. They had my little girl. We could come get her and bring her home. They didn't tell me anything about her. They only emailed or faxed me a pic. and told me her birthday. It wasn't until I called my friend with the news that I realized... my daughter had been born on the exact same morning as my friends baby, in Nov. of 2002. We were pregnant together after all.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Strange, every time you see a coincidence you attribute it to your God as if a coincidence was evidence of his existence.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Every time you see God move, you attribute it to coincidence. smile

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And every time something coincidental happens that pleases you, you attribute it to god.  Hard to see the difference, except that coincidence does happen but there is no indication that god interacts with the world outside of a desire that it be so. smile

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I spose you missed radmans comment? Mine was simply a retort.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Quite possibly; you and he have been going at it back and forth for some time without little of any value being offered by either side.  Not being interested in that, I likely missed the opening salvo in the current battle.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Oh. Well, speaking only for myself and not Radman, I thank you for your kind words.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You must have me confused with someone else. I've had very few interactions with Beth lately on this or any other forum.

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Perhaps so.  If so, I do apologize.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          So, God with his infinite power and knowledge lined up two birthdays to reenforce his existence for you while allowing millions of children to die a painful death every year?

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yes.
            We will all die.
            Every. Last. One. Of. Us.
            Some will die old, some will die young. Some rich, some poor. Some gloriously, some tragically.
            I've tried so many to explain that this is not Heaven, nor is it God's realm. It is a flawed place. It is not only a planet dying, but it is a planet full of people dying. Every thing is in a state of decline... decay. From the day we are born, we are on the path to death. (Please understand, I am sharing none of this in relation to your loss. This is just absolute truth as I see it.)

            I pray, I ask God to intervene. Does He always do as I wish? No. And that's good b/c I do not see things thru eternal eyes. I don't know how one event will cosmically affect another. So above all, I trust Him and I try to submit and obey.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              "This is not God's realm"?  Have you forgotten that He created it, created it specifically to grow the people He wants on?

              I think you do a great disservice to God in deciding that He has made an imperfect world.  If there is decay and evil (and there most certainly is) then it is because He desired it so and He has planned and constructed it to be that way.  If God has put someone here that will exist in torment and tragedy for a handful of years and move on to Hell then that is what He wants to happen.

              Nor is anyone on a path to death; only to a pit stop just long enough to remove the layer of clothing we call a body. 

              At least that is my (objective) interpretation of what others describe as attributes and details of God.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                To address your first statement:
                Eph 2:1-2
                As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

                To address your second:
                Rom 5:12
                Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

                Rom 6:23
                For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Surely, Beth, this is cherry picking verses from the bible?   One would need to know and understand the exact conditions and situation that were being address to the people of that era in order to apply such writings accurately.
                  If you were to respond (and I don't know if you would) to this suggestion of mine, by saying "God gave us instructions in these verses, because He inspired the bible," then you would be interpreting the writings to fit your understanding..... and who is to say your interpretations would be correct for all to hear?
                  I cannot see how such ancient writings can be effectively transported to our modern age.  Surely you can talk in terms of what we know in our own lives.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I just did that, and you told me to keep it to myself.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              And yet, your doom and gloom perspective of the world is the furthest thing from reality. What's worse, it is your religion that causes you to believe such nonsense, that's why it's rejected by folks who live in reality and see it for what it really is.

    2. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Your story is touching and will probably reinforce a belief in god for those that already believe.  For those that will read your story with only the good parts, ignoring the hurt and pain.  That will twist what happened to fit their beliefs and will assign cause without having the slightest idea if that cause was even present.

      Others will feel sorrow that you suffered emotionally for months or years before finding your daughter.  They will feel happiness that your pain has ended, and that your daughter finally has a loving family instead of simple physical support.  They will also look a little askance when you declare that an invisible god gave you that daughter after forcing you to live in pain and sorrow for all that time, and that you love him for that. 

      People very often (usually) "interpret" real actions is such a manner as to make them happy.  They forget the bad parts, they change them just a little, they make up things that aren't there.  This is not necessarily a bad thing and it helps us lead a happier life, but when you present past events in that manner publicly you can expect them to be dissected and examined.  Others, not having suffered through your pain, aren't going to set it aside and forget it about it; it is an integral part of the tale to them.  They also aren't going to feel the depth of happiness you are and aren't necessarily going to attribute it to anything that didn't cause it.  More dissection, which you take as an attack on your belief system, but really isn't.  It may be an attack on the reasoning used to produce your conclusions (god loves me and gave me a baby), but not on the belief in god (although some people will make such an attack).

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        For sure.

    3. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      A personal, touching account,  beautifully related to us, thanks Beth.  Again, I honour your beliefs in regard to that story, totally valid for you and so valuable in your understanding of life.
      However, there is a real need for you to let it stop there....don't extrapolate what you feel about/through the story with what or how anyone else will perceive it.   Keep it personal, then share in other people's stories, without having to take those on board yourself.
      I know you will not wish to do as I suggest, because this empathy with others is something genetically inherent with our species, as with many other species.  Not something we choose to do, just something that happens.
      (I am still reading "In Search of the Bonobo and the Atheist," by Franz de Waal.  A most enlightening book, I find.)

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Because that is what you would do? So if I am more like you, I will be in the right? Or is it ok for me to be genuine and allow you to accept or reject me? Since I have become an adult, I find it increasingly harder to not be authentic. If it is all the same to you, I will sing from the highest rooftops of what my God has done for me and know that I mean no disrespect when I say, 'Feel free to plug your ears.' I am friends with many saved and unsaved ppl. It is quite comfortable for me to love them all... they seem to love me despite, or for who I am as well. I believe this to be a good thing.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, that is what I would do, and it's basically what I do do.   I don't insist that you become atheist in your thinking, simply because that's the way I see it.   All I do is ask you, and anyone else who has a deep and passionate belief, don't presume that what's right for you in your beliefs is right for others. 
          The presumption that the christian view of God, Jesus, Eternity, Sin, Forgiveness, Retribution, Fear of What might happen as a consequence of our actions......( all these and more, ) are the Truth of the world that we ALL need to understand..... well this is I think what you are saying, and it goes against MY freedom of thought.  It is also the basis on which many well-intended folk interfere in the lives of others, in numerous countries and societies all over the world.   And the basis for them judging anyone who is in the slightest bit different. 
          I am not saying that you are "guilty" of all these things, Beth.  You sound a much more accommodating christian than most.....

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You can ALWAYS do and think as you please. I would have to stop believing the Bible were I to *not believe that salvation was necessary for *all mankind. If you feel like Im cherry picking, I would be willing to provide you with every single verse that speaks of God offering salvation for all, (and it's necessity) or please feel free to look them up, which ever you would prefer.You don't have to agree with me... or the Bible should you prefer not to, but why should that change my core belief? I don't have to do that for you. It does not dishonor you in any way... it is simply God (and His word) as I know Him.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
              EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              The problem with your statement is that verses from the Bible show that you don't believe in everything written there, that you are cherry picking. You can't toss out verses from the Bible telling everyone they need salvation when you yourself won't even adhere to other verses. It's outright hypocrisy. Your core belief is NOT based entirely on the Bible.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You are incorrect.
                You are wrong.
                You are not right.
                You don't know what you're talking about.
                You are off base.

                I don't know how many ways or times I can say this, but you making a statement like that doesn't make it true. I don't believe in cherry picking so keep saying it till you're blue in the face, it still wont be correct. The Bible must be taken as a whole and in context. You must understand the events that affect the writings of the old testament and the new testament while simultaneously understanding they are both vital and imperative for understanding God. You must read it, understanding history, the situations at the time, you must be able to apply it to current life situations and know the difference between principle or promise. You must have an understanding of actual events and parables. You must KNOW GOD. You must be seeking Him to understand His word. If you are actively rejecting Him, you cannot grasp the Bible's meaning.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image62
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You have never shown that.



                  But, it is true, I have already shown that by placing verses from the Bible here that you certainly wouldn't follow through.



                  But, you don't take the Bible as a whole and in context, you cherry pick.



                  You must stop being hypocritical. It is you who is rejecting Him. That has already been proven.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    lol

                2. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  If true (and I would tend to believe what you say here), then there can be no reason to quote a single verse or even small set of verses.

                  At a minimum a biblical quotation should include most of the chapter it comes from, along with pertinent comments as to the history behind the words and the circumstances in which the words were spoken.

                  Yes?

  24. EncephaloiDead profile image62
    EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago

    That would be twisting the definition of hate to something completely different. If Jesus meant to say "love less" then He would said it. The word used is "hate"



    The verse is meant to be shown as the cost of being a disciple of Jesus and does say "hate" it does not say to love and cherish our children or to love and respect our parents.



    That's a joke, right? Apologize to Beth? You must therefore be Beth with another userid.

    1. bBerean profile image58
      bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You illustrate my initial point magnificently. 



      No, but I'll take that as a compliment.  Thank you!

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      Beth37posted 3 years ago

      Holy cow. Three pages. I don't have time for that tonight. I'll see if I can catch up later.

     
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