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Conversations With God

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    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    I just read a comment in the forum about meeting God. The exact statement was If you believe you've met God (and this is a generic statement) and that God has shown you the true way it's very very difficult to even get most people to show flexibility .

    This attitude appears to permeate the theistic side of most any discussion held within the religious forum. It has heavy overtones of Islam, as I understand it. One guy claiming an experience in the dark cave of their mind; the whole world expected to not only believe it, but follow it if they want to avoid damnation. I don't experience difficulty accepting that someone thinks there is a higher consciousness; but....the right way? The only way?

    I suppose my primary problem is that I, too, have had experiences which lead me to believe there is a higher consciousness. However, these experiences were fleeting and it is difficult to extrapolate a great deal of information from the passing moments; beyond the fact that something very odd happened. The simple truth is that I was made aware of something more.

    If I accept that I have experienced these moments I have to accept the probability that others, too, have had them. Any conclusions I have come to are based solely on personal experience and must be alluded to when judging the words of others who claim experience. I find it increasingly difficult to resolve what I know to what others insist to be true. It is as if I am expected to believe that said higher power is giving personal tutorial sessions in theology.

    All of this being said, why is it that we are expected to show flexibility and accept either side of the debate; (in fairness to the points presented in the discussions throughout the forum, be it that there is no God or that there is a God who has enlightened a select few as to an exceptionally narrow understanding) while those who claim some 'personal epiphany' on cosmic issues are unable, or unwilling, to return the favor?

    What makes anyone think the conclusions they have arrived at from the things they've read and the things they've seen trump all experiences of all other people throughout history? Why must you seek not only consensus but validation? What does it matter to anyone on either side what anyone else thinks? I realize the theist claims they are attempting to save souls, the atheist claims a higher purpose also; but I view it all as insecurity. Belief that shared belief equates to truth. A need to drive the ego. Belief that knowledge is power over others and this belief drives the need to make broad claims which cannot be supported.

    If I have overstepped the bounds here. If anyone truly has proof to back their claims; please, chime in. Enlighten me. But words in books are simply words to be read and thought upon. We all come to different conclusions based on life experience. If a higher power had the desire to push one truth upon the world, if it mattered in the final analysis; that higher power would have the means and wherewithal to push it. It wouldn't sneak around and whisper contradictory information into everyone's minds, creating confusion. If it did, could we really label it a higher power?

    1. kess profile image60
      kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You are merely recreating the situation where the ignorance of god continues and perpetuates itself.

      God is not seen by sifting doubts, accepting this and rejecting that. This is what the demand for proof require.

      God is seen when all doubt it's eliminated....this happens when you realize that you are the only necessary and possible proof.

      Everything else will leave you on the cycles of perpetual debate.

      So What is this "proof" that it's going to satisfy you?
      Don't respond we do not need another debate.

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning these claims. Do you understand the difference?

        1. kess profile image60
          kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I take it then that you have not understood the futility of that kind of questioning.

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            See my response to getitrite. I know futility when I run across it. smile

      2. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        How can you be ignorant of something that doesn't exist? Odd you need to keep coming to the debate. I have always been of the opinion that anyone who had genuinely experienced this god thing would not feel the need to debate it. wink

        1. kess profile image60
          kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Attention seeker.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            At least you admit it. Good for you. Well done. wink

    2. A Troubled Man profile image60
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What have you been made aware? How do you know your experiences regards a higher consciousness?

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair
        Warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air
        Up ahead in the distance, I saw a shimmering light
        My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
        I had to stop for the night.

        There he stood in the doorway;
        I heard the mission bell
        And I was thinking to myself
        'This could be heaven or this could be Hell'

        So, then it occurred to me the whole thing was odd. I honestly felt like I was stuck in song. I knew
        I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
        'Relax' said the man,
        'We are programmed to receive.
        You can check out any time you like,
        But you can never leave!'

        Weird. Huh?

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          So, Don Henley and Glenn Fry made you aware of a higher consciousness?

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            No. I think I was just high.

        2. getitrite profile image81
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Wow!  So you wrote "Hotel California" huh?  Great song!
          But, still, how is this a perception of a higher consciousness?

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Humor. A difficult concept for some. Yes? You don't have to see something as humorous to understand it as an attempt at humor.

            Either way, I didn't just stumble across the forums. Why would I take you seriously? Why waste time answering a question you simply ask in hopes of an opportunity to ridicule? I honestly don't care what you think of my conclusions. Heck, they aren't important enough to get into a protracted and pointless debate. This thread was started because of people such as yourself. The ego driven souls who think their conclusions are important enough to push on others.

            1. getitrite profile image81
              getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/Scharazade/serious.jpg

        3. aguasilver profile image88
          aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Great track, but written to describe Anton LeVeys headquarters in California, the center of Satanic worship.... just saying!

          "You can check out any time you like,
          But you can never leave!'"

          How true!

          Read 2 Corinthians 4:3, preferably in the Living Bible translation which mostly answers your question.

          "If the Good News we preach is hidden to anyone, it is hidden from the one who is on the road to eternal death.

          Satan, who is the god of this evil world, has made him blind, unable to see the glorious light of the Gospel that is shining upon him or to understand the amazing message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is God.

          We don’t go around preaching about ourselves but about Christ Jesus as Lord. All we say of ourselves is that we are your slaves because of what Jesus has done for us.

          For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made us understand that it is the brightness of his glory that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            What a song might mean to the writer is not necessarily what it means to the listener. Just saying.

            1. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Agreed, I love the song to bits, one of the greats... but I was viewing the Eagles differently once <i knew the inspiration!

              This (and stairway to heaven) are DJ´s 'smoke break' songs, when they can steal out of the studio for a quick smoke! smile

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            lol lol

            Dear me. I guess once you think the Dark Angel is out to get you, He gets everywhere huh? Thanks for taking time out from your Battle with Evil to spread the misinformation. sad

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You understand they were talking about California right?

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Hotel California is many things to many people. Don Hendley (sp?) has denied that the song is actually about California specifically and is more about America in general.

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I watched the special a while back where he directly says he's talking about California and how people flock to it and it becomes a love hate relationship.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I believe you. I haven't seen that, I just read an interview once where he denied it was specifically about Cali. Maybe he changed his mind, maybe he got sick of talking about it.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this
            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It's Don Henley and here are his words about the song...

              "a journey from innocence to experience...that's all"

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                +1

    3. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Got to say, you've taken me waaaaayyyy out of context there.

      And you've shown one of the problems that I've talked about so often, which is that in a soundbite culture there is little room for longer thoughts. I tried to be clear but I still don't think you got what I was saying in my (much longer) statement.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What an odd choice of venues to complain about "soundbite culture." I would have thought you could find a better venue for expressing such thought processes than the hubpages discussion forum, which is pretty much only any good for soundbites. As you "talk about such problems so often," - I am somewhat surprised to see you not bothering to learn how to express yourself in a sound bite. How come?

        1. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          An odd choice this may be but nevertheless my analysis of the shortcomings of soundbite culture are a recurring theme in my posts. Even to you, if I remember correctly.

          I disagree that the forums are "only good" for soundbites although that is most certainly the primary form of communication within them. Nevertheless, there have been some pretty good longer posts that give good analysis and/or exposition. Some of these I only know about second-hand (the travails of a certain non-Christian member of the forums I've never read for myself because she never addressed them to me, so I didn't see them. But I did hear about them from others.) And the fact is that soundbites rarely afford the opportunity for better analysis.

          Before you say it, I'm well aware that there are many people who post long posts and talk a lot but say nothing. Nonetheless...

          And conversely, there are many people who read long posts, take the specific point they want to deal with and make that the entire discussion, even if they end up missing that the original post actually dealt with what they are 'arguing against.'

          But longer posts are still necessary for those of us who can see both sides of the argument, even if we don't agree with one of the sides (and sometimes we don't agree with either side.)

          I most certainly can express myself in soundbites. But when I see that more often than not, soundbite expresssions aimed at me show that the person not only didn't get what I was saying but seemed to be pulling things out on purpose for argument's sake, I get frustrated and decide not to follow that. If I am misquoted, then I want the longer explanation there so that if I'm accused of lying I can point to what I said and rebut the statement. And my history with someone who shall remain nameless, where they level accusations against me that they understand one way and I understand another, and they don't ever bother to explain themselves (for whatever reason) while I do, has also convinced me that soundbite reduction breeds contempt more than it illuminates.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            It would seem the 2 claims are at odds. 1, you can express your self properly and 2, the person didn't get what you were saying. If you have properly expressed yourself in this sound bite environment, the person will get what you are saying. But - as you "often complain," about not being understood.........

            Well - you draw your own conclusions. wink

            Personally, I strive to make myself as clear as possible - even with few words. Hemingway once claimed and made a bet that he could make someone cry with a 6 word story.

            For sale.
            Baby shoes.
            Never worn.


            He won the bet. smile

            1. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That's a good story, I'd never heard that one.

              I'm not opposed to making oneself clear in the fewest possible words but history has shown that even when the poster thinks they have achieved clarity with brevity and the postee thinks the same thing, the point they take away can be vastly different. Brevity for its own sake seems to lend itself even more to the poster making what they want out of the post. Not always, and not with everyone, but the ones who are most determined that they are gonna stick to their point no matter what the person actually said tend to be the noisiest in 'making their points.'

              So yeah, I can see how it could be viewed as overkill but if the point I'm making has room for nuance, I discuss it. The other person is, of course, free to disregard that (as I've been reminded oh so bluntly recently) but that's all the more reason for explanation.

              And not to belabor the point, but just to make sure I'm clear and to answer your first paragraph more directly, 1) I can express myself as clearly as anyone and it makes little difference if 2) the filter that the other person uses means that no matter what I say they will turn it into something else. Hence, less brevity makes for better defense.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Well - as we have already discovered in our previous conversations, your grasp of history is tenuous at best.

                But - I get what you are saying. You expressed yourself perfectly on this point.

                It is always the other guys fault because you express yourself perfectly clearly - they just choose not to understand or twist what you said. You must be a Christian. wink

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  On the contrary, as your response so brilliantly indicates, my grasp of history is crystal clear.

                  And although I still get no pleasure out of saying it, thanks (I guess) for making my point for me.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Aww - I don't believe you. wink

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Chris. I missed this and as you know, you were the driving force behind the thread. I didn't miss your intent, I was simply flabbergasted that you, considering your philosophy, could complain about others not being flexible enough to consider your claims. It isn't only you, as you can surmise by reading through this thread. It isn't only Calvinists either. I suppose it is simply anyone who is here to preach in hopes of convincing others that they have a better bead on reality than the rest of the world. There are some levels which cannot be known with certainty. So, in my mind, there must be a reason. If there is a reason, the theist has completely ignored anything supporting it, in favor of their ego. If there is no reason, then both sides are simply creating hostility for personal gratification. But, going with the assumption that there is a reason the theist bears the brunt of the responsibility to attempt to understand the why. To appreciate the why and react positively.

        I see no evidence which leads me to believe either theists or atheists have an inkling of information to back the claims they make. And yet they both continue on. Common ground is never recognized. The lack of humility behind the assumptions is staggering.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          How humble of your to claim to be superior to all of us. Staggered huh? lol

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            Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yes. Sure. An admission of ignorance is incredibly egotistical. How silly of me not to recognize that. Ignorant always, I guess.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Your humility is staggering. The fact that you choose to lie about what atheists claims is what makes it though. Didn't bother buying that dictionary I recommended huh? lol

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                Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Wow. You just love proving points I've made. Thanks. smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry you didn't understand. Why not go buy that dictionary I suggested - then you will know what the words you use mean. wink

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                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    This is why I say your belief system causes so much conflict. But, you appear to enjoy it, so all is not lost. smile

        2. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Well, what I was doing was providing an answer to a question. The little insertion about it being a generic statement was meant to imply that it's sort of across the board.

          I don't remember the full statement at this time (because it was part of a much, much longer post) but it was meant to be one explanation out of several. The OP for that forum implied that religious people were basically all belligerent idiots (if I remember correctly) and I simply was attempting to point out different reasons for the behavior they were inquiring about other than simply 'because Christians need to believe in spite of the truth.'

          And yes, I have pointed out in the past and will continue to do so in the future, that the type of behavior can be found on both sides.

          At this late date I don't remember enough to comment further, but I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring your post.

  2. gmwilliams profile image85
    gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago

    God is DIFFERENT things and experiences to DIFFERENT people.  Also there is a religious and societal consensus as to what God SHOULD be.  If the majority decides what the perception and/or conception of what God should be, then God IS according to the majority's particular construct.
    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/8367248_f248.jpg

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'd have to strongly disagree on this one. We can't create reality.  That would fall into the category of moving mountains. What is, is. Whether we like it, understand it or recognize it. You are basically saying I AM exists and it is what humans want it to be. That's the main problem. We can't combine our egos in an effort to form the cosmos into a palatable form which assuages our fears.

      1. aguasilver profile image88
        aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting.... God SPEAKS it happens... add that to the authority given believers in Christ, the authority to loose or bind things on earth according to the status of how things are in ´heaven´and you have a situation where what we speak (or write, and even think) does have the power to influence our world constructively or destructively.

        I have frequently stated that every word we state (and are held accountable for) is either empowering Gods Kingdom on earth, or the enemies kingdom which, by default, we are all subjected to until we elect to join Gods Kingdom.

        I agree that the majority of people, believers or secular folk, speak without consideration of the cause and effect they create, which in turn creates the dire things we witness in this world.

        The believers task is to explain why this happens, and why Christ brought such a revolutionary change to things, a change we can progress or diminish by our words, thoughts and actions.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Interesting. So - are you now accepting responsibility for the ill will and hatred you cause when you - as an example - call some one a "Satan Whisperer."? Because I thought you were just passing on the message and it was the Invisible Super Being speaking through you. N'est pas?

          Is this your goal? To create as much ill will and hatred as possible. Which team are you playing for again? wink

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Mark, glad you remember one of my most popular articles.

            The Satan Whisperers is an expose of what the enemy does, the fact that it made such an impression on you is heartwarming, and gives some grounds for hope.

            It of course is a 'if the cap fits wear it´ sort of article, and you seem to still be trying it on for size.

            There are some articles I have written that I maybe would change with hindsight, however that is not one of them.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No - I was referring to you directly calling me a Satan Whisperer - amongst other things. Not a positive impression actually - but I gather that is what you are after. The more ill will and hatred the better huh? sad

              Does that mean you do not accept any responsibility for your actions again? I know you usually blame an Invisible Super Being - I am confused - are you responsible or it is the Invisible Super Being? Because I was getting the *almost* impression you were going to man up and accept responsibility for your own actions. As you avoided my question in favor of patting yourself on the back. sad

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Again you misread or perhaps just misquote by mistake?

                Not only do I accept total responsibility for all the words I speak (in fact we all have no option but to be judged by our words) I point out that we are ALL equally responsible for our words, thoughts and actions.

                "The more ill will and hatred the better huh?"

                No not at all, I have no ill will towards those who are held in deception and darkness, but do understand why they would find the words of Christ offensive.

                I would be concerned if the world agreed with what I stated, for that would mean that I was in danger of having spoken the scripture in a ´tingling ears' fashion.

                No avoiding the question, the Satan Whisperers article and my direct references to yourself have made many people ponder the words they speak, and what the origin of those words are.

                If I have offended your sensibilities, I accept full responsibility for doing so, but sometimes we all need to be made to consider our stances and that may cause us offence, however if eventually that offence leads to a better result for the offended party, then it is a small price to pay for salvation.

                None of us are lost until the final breath leaves our bodies, so we can never be sure of our final outcomes in eternity.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Odd that you speak in such a fashion guaranteed to generate ill will and hatred in that case. You have certainly reinforced my belief that people who claim to be speaking for god are self righteous, condescending so and sos. That is why I rejected this irrational belief system in the first place - people such as yourself. 

                  Save me a seat by the fire. wink

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I don't believe in fairy tales. I don't believe you possess powers granted by a God. I'm sorry, but it comes off as unbridled ego dancing naked in the light of the day. Everyone knows you're naked, but you.  Nothing you say mirrors the words and intent of the one you claim gave you authority.

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You don´t believe, fair enough, then obviously you cannot hold the authority given by Christ, and by default, you are obeying the authority of a master whose authority you are content to stay under, though you probably do not realize that fact..

            'The one you claim gave you authority' stated:

            John 14:12-13
            “In solemn truth I tell you, anyone believing in me shall do the same miracles I have done, and even greater ones, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask him for anything, using my name, and I will do it, for this will bring praise to the Father because of what I, the Son, will do for you.

            The key word is believing in HIM, i's not believers that wield the power, it's Christ, but EVERY believer is empowered to do as He did, provided they actually believe in Him and His authority over this world kingdom.

            As previously stated, I accept that MOST people have been deceived by Churchianity and the enemy into making excuses for why they do not have access to the authority God gave in Christ.

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Question: Why, when someone tells you they don't believe in a specific myth, do you reply with quotations from that myth?  Do you hope that pure repetition will convince them?  Are you actually speaking to someone else, preaching to the public rather than replying to someone?

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Someone not believing in what they consider a myth is irrelevant to me, as I do believe in what I state, and yes, I use these forums on occasion to reach the general public.

                No i do not believe repetition will break through the barriers folk erect to the truth, if it did then surely we would have reached all humanity by now, with the good news, however repetition does seem to have worked in lowering the moral standards of our society, which broadcast media has managed to achieve in such a short time by repetitive brainwashing that there are no absolutes and anything that feels good is OK.

                Have a nice day smile

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Interesting.  Is the internal response of the listener to your quotations also irrelevant?  If not, what do you think the response is likely to be?  If so, why waste the effort to respond at all?

                  1. aguasilver profile image88
                    aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    The 'internal response of the listener' is up to them, they either confirm their belief position or change it, how they decide is not my responsibility if they stay intransigent, nor any accolade if they change their opinion and examine things from a spiritual perspective differently.

                    No 'seed sowing' is a waste of effort, scripture states one sows, another reaps, and sometimes a soul needs stark revelation before they respond to a softer approach, neither are my sole attributes or method.

                    I respond because it is polite to answer detractors and supporters alike, and to bear in mind that we have a lot of people who are observers, not participants, who may also be reached and find things to consider in their spiritual walk.

                2. BuddiNsense profile image60
                  BuddiNsenseposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Whoes truth is the truth?

                  1. aguasilver profile image88
                    aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    That is what the whole soul school experience is about, determining what the truth is... the evidence is there for all to find IF they will seek it.

                    Once we find what we perceive to be the truth, then we should stand on that truth as if our very life depended upon being correct.... because it does.

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Don't know the verse, but it's something about people calling in his name and he swears he never knew you. If the shoe doesn't fit you, prove it by showing what miracles you have done.

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The verse you are thinking about is:

                Matthew 7:22-24
                Living Bible (TLB)
                At the Judgment many will tell me, ‘Lord, Lord, we told others about you and used your name to cast out demons and to do many other great miracles.’ But I will reply, ‘You have never been mine.Go away, for your deeds are evil.’

                “All who listen to my instructions and follow them are wise, like a man who builds his house on solid rock.

                I have seen some miraculous events happen in the 20 years I have been in faith, but openly admit that for most of that time, like most of Churchianity, I was making excuses for why we do not see more of Gods authority being used on earth.

                During my time in Asia ( we are now back in Europe) we were blessed to meet strong believers who do take Kingdom Authority seriously, and see the power of God at work in His Kingdom and over the kingdom of the Prince of this world.

                Putting that authority into action, like all new skill sets, requires belief and time to practice the power and authority God gave us through Christ.

                We are seeing small breakthroughs, we will see major changes as we move closer to the end days and more believers start exercising their authority in Christ.

                If you genuinely want  to hear more about it, contact me off forum and I will send you a link where you can hear what some of these people have seen and witnessed.

                As to what Christ will tell many (as stated above) I suspect that those who do know Him will use His authority to help others, and those who do not (and hear those words) will use His name for personal gain in this temporal existence.

                Christ alone will decide which camp we all belong in.

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                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Honestly, that is simply silly. You have no authority. I have no authority and neither does anyone else.  You don't have a magic wand. If you want one, then (imo) you've missed the whole point of searching for the spiritual. Which is fine. As long as you accept that your wants don't supersede my needs.

              2. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It's Matthew 7:21-23.

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          MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You have to be able to see the abrasiveness here...I mean come on. You claim that you have an authority over others that is granted to you by something no one can see and no one can prove even exists and that you contribute to learning from a book. I'm not trying to offend anyone here but I have to say, Wow, it is really amazing the claims that some make and expect it to be swallowed by all. I mean, think about it. If I were to say that I was given authority over you or anyone else by an invisible deity to do his/her/their workings here on earth, to spread the word of his/her/their will and teachings, not only would you scoff at that claim, you would think I was completely crazy! You would likely think that I was not only crazy but delusional, off my rocker, and very egotistical to try to push my "knowledge" on others without proof, especially if what I was convinced of to be "correct" spreads the, it's this way or the hellfire way. Do you see how this type of thinking sometimes looks to people who do not share your beliefs? I'm not saying or implying that you care how abrasive your beliefs may seem, but then I would have to say too that you can surely understand why some people are sometimes completely confused by some of the claims of some Christians and that which they say they represent.

          I think that you think you are doing what you are "supposed" to do, far be it from me to tell someone not to do what they feel is right, but in saying that, I also have to say do not be surprised or offended if not everyone buys into your seemingly strong personal ideas of greatness and claims of superiority or privilege. Good luck convincing EVERYONE, if that is your goal, that your authority over them given to you by something, like it or not, is unproven takes precedent over them or their lives in any way!

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            As stated in an earlier reply:

            John 14:12-13
            “In solemn truth I tell you, anyone believing in me shall do the same miracles I have done, and even greater ones, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask him for anything, using my name, and I will do it, for this will bring praise to the Father because of what I, the Son, will do for you.

            I appreciate that you find this unusual and even impossible, however it is NOT.

            This authority is available to ANY believer in Christ, the fact that the majority do not exercise that authority is sad, but not indicative that it does not exist.

            The fact that a non believer may be stunned into further disbelief is also understandable.

            200 years ago anyone trying to explain radio or television waves would have been equally decried, but they existed and were all around humanity, folks just could not see or understand them, until someone built a receiver.

            Just because one is incapable of accessing a power, is no indicator that it does not exist and could be available.

            The very medium we are using to communicate was impossible to think of existing just 50 years ago, the computer I write this on is vastly more powerful than the one that ran the WW2 offensive for the Allies, and men flew to the Moon using less computing power than we all have in our cell phones to store addresses.

            Seeing may be believing, but equally believing normally comes before seeing the end result.

            1. 0
              MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not seeking to have authority or to get authority, for authority to be placed upon me, within me, around me. Why would I need it? Want it? To pat my ego? To feel superior? To feel special? I for one have no use for such needs and wants in my life because I see EVERYONE as being equal. No one, regardless of ANY religion or the lack there of is better than anyone else. I would never expect anyone to see me as being privileged or on a pedestal over anyone else due to my choice of belief system. How arrogant and how pompous would I be? Good grief. I will never understand why some believe that their way is the only way simply because they are told they should or because they read it in a book. Forgive those who do not see that as being a legitimate excuse to give you special exceptions, credit, or treatment, please. Isn't that YOUR problem if YOUR beliefs suggests that you must tell others that disagree with your beliefs that they are wrong every chance you get and that it is your duty to do that to your fellow man? I would feel so callous were it me. I would feel so arrogant if I were instructed to do that. I would feel so unworthy to even do that to people. But your religion is the only right one or way, am I correct? Please excuse me if I cannot see why.

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You have the right to believe that, but unfortunately it´s not true.

                There are two sources of authority operating on our temporal world, the authority of the Prince of the world (mankinds enemy) and the authority of God.

                All human beings are under one or the others authority.



                Anybody who seeks authority from God rarely receives it, in other words folk that want to use Gods authority for their own use normally fail spiritually, though they may appear to win bigtime with the world, however they are normally then operating under the enemies authority with or without that knowledge.

                There is nothing special about having the authority of God in the name of Christ, after all it's available to EVERY believer, which rather negates your argument.

                Authority ALWAYS comes with responsibility, so having more authority = being held in higher account for the responsibility you are also carrying, like scripture states; to whom much is given much is required.



                Good, you would be foolish if you did, and probably unworthy of holding any authority given to you.

                Because I speak with authority, there seems to be a general consensus that I consider myself superior for holding that authority, which is totally wrong.

                Having and being committed to work in Christs authority entails no greater rank of privilege, in fact the first requirement is to become a servant, not just to Christ, but to all who need assistance.

                Pride, ego and self esteem needs leave as normally one is required to do mostly mundane tasks that others choose to avoid, tasks which carry no 'glory'.

                Yes there are occasions when one would be required to intercede or intervene in spiritual aspects, but entering the enemies territory with pride and ego riding your shoulders would be dangerous indeed, rather like trying to sneak into the enemies camp playing a loud fanfare.

                The worldview of most folk equate any claim to authority with success and ego, which is understandable as most ´leaders´are prideful and egotistic, because in the enemies kingdom those attributes gain power and strength.

                Not so in Gods Kingdom, in fact just the reverse, as are most things in Gods Kingdom.



                In my case coming to faith in Christ happened when I was middle aged, after a life of alpha male living in a totally selfish manner. I state that ONLY to show that I was a perfectly normal male sinner, no different from most other folk, thinking I was a 'nice guy' and a success (which in world terms I was) and having pretty much everything I could desire.

                So no, my coming to faith was not 'simply because they are told they should or because they read it in a book.' - I was a defector from the enemies camp rather than a convert, I was aware of what happened in the spiritual world that surrounds us, because I was on the enemies team, all I did was switch teams.



                Christ is the only way, yes I believe that, and yes I attempt to show people why when possible.

                I do not stand shouting in malls or street corners, I will not knock on your door, I do not ask 'Do you know Jesus as your personal Savior?' or tell anyone that they will burn for eternity for not agreeing with me.

                I am nothing, have nothing except what God gives me, when I see that folk are in confusion or being used as the enemies mouthpiece to deceive folk, I will enter a comment or offer advice or assistance if possible.

                After three years of living in a Muslim state where evangelizing is forbidden, I am well versed in not starting a discussion about Christ and the enemy and where we stand in respect to those two authorities, but even in Islamic countries I am permitted to share my faith WHEN someone approaches me first.

                Nobody here is required to answer my posts, it matters not one jot to me if they do or do not, I write to reach those who ARE seeking to understand the spiritual aspects of the great divide between the kingdom of the world and the Kingdom of God.

                I am no expert, but due to the odd life God has given me, I have been 'in country' more than a lot of other folk, so I can offer some practical advice to those who are about to engage the enemy by starting to practice using the authority of Christ given to them.

                You guys all seem to take offence that I mention that EVERY believer has the ability to call on the authority of Christ, who ALONE does have all authority over the enemy.

                Like all packs you try to turn that into a personal attack on the individual who does not conform to your mindset and understanding.

                Sorry, I don´t buy that concept, I know who I am, and who I am not, and if that offends, or you view it as callous that I have the temerity to state it, it's not my problem.

                If you are standing watching folk walking across  a minefield and shout at them to stay still until you can guide them back to safety, you cannot be concerned that they thin k your manner is unseemly or callous for shouting at them.

                Tread carefully! smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  John - I know it makes you feel big to make these sort of threats and claims of esoteric understanding, disguised as they are in a fake "concern," that we don't get burned in hell by the Invisible Super Daddy that you are speaking for - but it is nonsense. Does it make you hard when you tell some one they need to "tread carefully"?

                  Man up. Admit you don't know anything and have no authority. Sadly - I don't think you are able to accept reality - are you?

                  Do you tell children this garbage and threaten them in the same way? sad

                2. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Produce one example of this enemy you claim exists and someone might take you seriously. Otherwise, accept the fact that no one does. That isn't true, entirely. I think everyone can see the ego which drives your argument.

                  1. aguasilver profile image88
                    aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh Emile, if you cannot see the enemy at work worldwide then your spiritual eyes are truly blinded.

                    To a degree I envy you, for there is much truth in the statement 'ignorance (of an event or effect) is bliss'.

                    How many times do I have to say, I care not one jot whether you or anyone else accepts what I state, it´s irrelevant, what I am doing will not affect you by my endeavours, it may affect you when other believers more local to wherever you are start exercising their God give authority in Christ, and I guess i's possible that those believers may be activated by reading writings on Kingdom Authority.

                    What will affect all humanity is when Christ declares time up and returns to judge us all, if my words now or in the future lead one person to stand on the right side of that judgement, then I will be delighted, which is why the worlds approval or not is irrelevant.

                    The closing scene of Schindlers List shows Oscar lamenting that his escape car could have bought another 10 Jewish lives, his Nazi Party lapel badge one more soul saved from extermination.

                    In the end result, what we say or do with our lives does have that sort or relevance, all else is vanity, and if you wish to intimate that I am acting from ego or fear or whatever else you want to accuse me of, it's meaningless in the scheme of things at this point in time.

                3. 0
                  MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  What do you get out of preaching to me? I will tell you again, I do not seek your advice, authority, or your religion therefore your preaching to me is in vain. I do not and will not see you as having any great knowledge that I wish to ever attain. I do not see you as being wise or as being someone worthy to preach to me, your ego clearly blinds me to any possible chance of that happening. If it makes you feel all warm inside to present yourself to the world as doing God's will and work disguised as and presenting yourself as an egotistical know it all to me, then by all means, knock yourself out. All I see you talk about on here is your "side" against the "enemy". You talk Christians against the enemy repeatedly...please take in consideration how that mindset is detrimental to your "cause". This type of thinking is exactly what is wrong with those that abuse Christianity. If you are trying to be an example of what a good Christian is, well it is completely lost on me. If this authority driven pompous ego talk is Christianity to you, I'm wise to avoid it then. You preach to the world that everyone that does not think the way you do is wrong and that we are just hypnotized by the "enemy", why in the world would I convert to a religion that thinks like that and then tells others they should as well? Do tell, please! If simply because I am not a Christian and you cannot convert me that makes me your enemy or under your enemy's trance, excuse me, I'll gladly stay right where I am. I am no ones enemy and no one is mine. This is the effect you wish to have on the non-believers? This is how you qualify yourself as being a good Christian or God's servant? Your Christian mission is to make those that are not Christian feel they are an enemy or under an enemy's authority? If that is helping anyone in your mind, that is sad, indeed. I don't want that kind of "help".

                4. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry, but that fantasy does not exist outside of your head.



                  Then, we know how you are operating, by your own words.



                  Again, that fantasy doesn't exist outside of your head.



                  And yet, you have already shown you don't even take responsibility for your own actions. You shift them to others.



                  Let's get this sparkling, crystal clear, you have no authority whatsoever.



                  No one needs your assistance, thanks.



                  We are not in a minefield, we are in reality. Try thinking about joining it sometime and stop shouting.

        4. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          It is hilarious to see how much believers believe they have such power and authority, it's just like a door man to a five star hotel who believes he is the owner. big_smile

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            ATM, the doorman has exactly the amount of power the owner gave him, and once again I quote Christ:

            John 14:12-13
            “In solemn truth I tell you, anyone believing in me shall do the same miracles I have done, and even greater ones, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask him for anything, using my name, and I will do it, for this will bring praise to the Father because of what I, the Son, will do for you.

            Actually the ONLY power we have as 'doormen' is to ask the owner to carry out that which we ask to be carried out, and provided we understand what falls withing our authority, it will be done.

            You seem to be under the impression that the owner of the hotel has no authority, he does, the owner has the authority to decide who can stay and who must depart from the 'hotel', and to a degree and it´s a great degree, the owner empowers his doorman to invite or exclude those who seek entry.

            Mark 4:11-12
            He replied, “You are permitted to know some truths about the Kingdom of God that are hidden to those outside the Kingdom:

            ‘Though they see and hear, they will not understand or turn to God, or be forgiven for their sins.’

            and...

            John 20:22-23
            Living Bible (TLB)
            22 Then he breathed on them and told them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”

            Blaming the messenger when effect you object to the message is futile.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, that is the same delusion you have with your religion, but of course, the door man is not the owner, he has no real power or authority over anything other than the door he stands and the delusion in his mind.



              No, you are not a messenger, you are the one using those quotes for your agenda. You need to take responsibility for your own actions rather than trying to shift it elsewhere. It's called having honesty and integrity.

              1. aguasilver profile image88
                aguasilverposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No point in wasting more time with folk who cannot read plain English and attempt to cherry pick a line so that they can write a reply out of context.

                Apologies ATM, I will once again be ignoring your reactions.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, I understand you realize you're completely incapable of wielding any power or authority over me and must ignore me. What you don't realize yet is that you're incapable of wielding any power or authority over anyone. smile

  3. getitrite profile image81
    getitriteposted 3 years ago

    Intellectual dishonest is the problem that all believers will inevitably yield, as a result of supporting a false and illogical premise.   And instead of admitting to dishonesty, they pretend that their comment was misinterpreted....taken out of context....or that the proponent is deficient in his understanding.

    Anyway...God wins!

    1. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, He does.

      Your argument, on the other hand, has some flaws.

      1. getitrite profile image81
        getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I am sorry, but could you point out the flaws.
        Thanks

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I thought it was funny because it described you too. If you changed the word God to atheism.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Good one!

            I didn't wanna say, though...

        2. Chris Neal profile image84
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Your  basic flaw is the assumption (since it is not provable) that all people of faith have difficulty with honesty and need to resort to dishonesty to adhere to their belief.

          Not provable.

          1. getitrite profile image81
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That's dishonest.  There is no way one can hold a false premise to be true, unless resorting to dishonesty.  And since all people of faith adhere to a false premise, they are inevitably going to have to resort to intellectual dishonesty when presented with real facts and direct logical questioning.  You have had, and continue to have, trouble with honesty in many of your responses.  Just like the Borg.  Mindless assimilation.  Sorry you can't see that, and insist that this absurdity you and others are spouting actually should be taken seriously.

            And your response will be:  "Thanks for proving my point"....right?  That is the only argument you have had in the past year.  But I see some people have a need for this drug(religion)which is the real explanation behind the desperation.  Wait....I just proved your point...again!   Wow!  When God is for you, nobody can be against you.  What a special bunch these magical Christians are....just so much better than us regular folk.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Well Chris, it looks like we found another who points out your dishonesty.

              We'll wait for others to chime in and build that list, shall we? smile

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                A) I said name two.

                B) If this is your example, I would suggest you take a good hard look at the difference between finding someone who is pointing out the truth and simply finding someone who merely reinforces your point of view, but I think you're too far into the second to realize it.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No worries, more folks will chime in, and there will be more than two. smile

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I for one don't believe Chris to be dishonest. I think he honestly thinks he's right, unfortunately for him he's wrong. wink wink.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    This is so you. I could write a book outlining every single contingency, go through possibilities, outline my entire thought process.

                    Then you would pull out one sentence you don't like, say something about it which would be flatly contradicted by everything else I said that you didn't quote.

                    Then you would accuse me of being dishonest.

                    Have a nice life.

            2. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You're telling me about dishonesty? Tried looking in the mirror?

            3. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I am not engaging in dishonesty. Your inability to grasp any reason other than dishonesty for why someone would hold a viewpoint like mine is not a deficiency on my part. And loudly and shrilly telling them that they must must must be dishonest is not an example of either correctness or rectitude on your part.


              In your case no, I had no intention of saying you've proved my point. Nor has that been my only answer all year (but then, if you were really honest you would know better, wouldn't you?) What you are is a crashing example of the self-righteous irony of those who become guilty of pretty much everything they accuse the other side of.

              1. getitrite profile image81
                getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Asserting things that are just NOT true is defined as dishonesty, whether you are aware of the dishonesty or not is a different subject.



                I can find another reason, and that is where the tire hits the road.....delusion.  But if a deluded psyche causes one to tell lies....it is still a lie.  And to rigidly stand firmly by that lie after it has been thoroughly exposed is truly disturbing.

                Of course the closed mind, festered with faith, never takes responsibility for its illogical assertions.  It is everyone else's responsibility to make sense of his nonsense....lest they be deficient.  In other words, the teacher is a terrible instructor, teaching superstition as reality, therefore, the students, who question this are stupid....Right????  Makes perfect sense.



                What does my correctness or rectitude have to do with honesty?  Sorry you are finding this to be so traumatizing.  I'll say it softly.  Very sorry.



                OK.  That was not meant as an absolute, but you have responded to ME with this comment most of the time that we have exchanged responses.....in forums....in the past year. 



                Yep.  Again and again, I just prove your point every time.   I'm the best player on your team.  But most importantly....imaginary Jesus wins AGAIN!  Christian logic is way too powerful for us simple folk.  I try to stump you....and your God just ends up shaming me into aiding you in crushing my own position.  Nothing left for me to do except....Praise Jesus!     http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/embarrassed.gif

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Boy ain't that the truth? Are you planning to stop anytime soon?

                2. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Having read your entire post, I was reminded of just how funny humorless people can be.

                  I was also reminded that no one is more fanatical than someone who is driven to call others fanatics.

                  And I'm not one.

                  1. getitrite profile image81
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    When all else fails, launch a sneaky personal attack to divert attention from the blatant dishonesty inherent in a false premise.  There is no escape, however, but the truth.  You should at least dip your foot in the truth pool, then maybe the trauma of honesty won't be so unbearable.



                    There is no evidence, whatsoever, for your beliefs, yet you seem to be prepared to die for them if the need arises(which, coincidentally, describes delusional).  Can you, honestly, say that is not fanatical?  And what's so fanatical about a person admitting that they don't know things that are beyond man's knowledge, at the moment?  Honestly.....and straightforward please.

 
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