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Would heaven be appealling to you if athiests were there?

  1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago

    Would heaven be appealling to you if athiests were there? Even better, lets include all Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, wiccans or any belief system outside of Christianity?

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      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Absolutely. The heaven that is described by the bible is one where the heart is judged and the intentions as well as the faith and the works. Either way it goes, God has the final say so.. There is a saying I heard that is very relevant: God doesn't choose the qualified. He qualifies the chosen. With this in mind, anyone that God chooses to enter his gates have been shown approved by him

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        It is written that all men will be drawn to Christ.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          It looks like what was written was wrong.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            perspective

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              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              an unenlightened opinion.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Possibly... or possibly that is opinion as well.

                When I see "It looks like..." That to me, says clearly it is opinion/perspective.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  We are all just giving our opinions here.

                  SwordofManticorE said "It is written that all men will be drawn to Christ."

                  You don't see a problem with this statement from ATM's perspective?

                  ATM said "It looks like what was written was wrong."

                  Do you think it's simply his opinion that not all men will be drawn to Christ when he himself is not drawn to Christ which means that not all men.

                  On a second note are you comfortable following a religion that originally didn't include women?

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I think the point of these threads is discussing points of view and opinions with ppl whose differ from your own. I don't disagree with the Bible, I believe it to be fact so "He will draw all men unto Him" is not, in my belief, an opinion so it would not make sense for me to argue the point. However, if I believe something is stated as if it were fact and I disagreed with the opinion... it just makes sense for me to address it.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image82
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It doesn't say "All men will be drawn to Christ at all minutes of every day and definitely respond in the affirmative."

                    But ATM seems to think it does.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No, it is a fact.

    2. Pollyannalana profile image77
      Pollyannalanaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      When you become Christian you could have been any of these but you are no longer for the scripture says we are neither Jew nor gentile anymore; now we become the body of Christ, as we will be in Heaven.  One with Him; as the bride of Christ.
      All are drawn to Christ; all have the opportunity to accept or reject.

      1. Faith Reaper profile image86
        Faith Reaperposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, Polly, once a Christian, the old has passed away and one is a new and beautiful creation in Christ ... one is now the Body of Christ and will be in Heaven.  All do have  a choice ... murders, thieves and the like, just as that one who was hanging on a cross next to Jesus ... is now in Heaven.  The answer is, Yes, Heaven would be appealing, for there is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.  We are all sinners and have fallen short.  It is a choice each one of us has the opportunity to choose.

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      MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "Sides" wouldn't matter, nobody is right or wrong, and everyone is equal, no superiority, hate, or discrimination...now that sounds like heaven to me smile

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I think I am going to have to agree with you completely this time and once again.

    4. Claire Evans profile image89
      Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      None of them will be atheists anymore to reach heaven.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        We'll all be Muslims.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You're only saying that because you want 72 virgins.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            How come nobodies ever happy with 70?

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Read the quaran. It's all in there. Very poetic, I hear. Seventy two rhymed with something better than seventy. In Arabic. I hear if it had been written in English the rhyming number would have been negative two. One wonders how many suicide bombers we'd have if Mohammed had spoken English as a primary language.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Still Ive yet to meet a man who could handle one woman... good luck to him.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Can you imagine the cost of all those braces? 72 wives, 216 kids, 162 of them need braces x $5000 = $810,000. Ahhh No thanks.

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                    MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Can you imagine the look on the faces of the Muslim guys if the whole 72 virgins thing does indeed turn out to be totally false? I mean, honestly, think about it...what will happen? I can't imagine they will get mad as I wouldn't think there is anger in Heaven, so, what then? Dear me. I can see it now if untrue, a lot of totally disgruntled, highly disappointed to say the very least, and likely more than a tad bit frustrated Muslim men with a look of total shock on their faces just sitting there virgin-less in Heaven....what a buzz-kill, huh? hmm

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            Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            He prefers women with experience.. How about 72 sluts...LOL

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Ummm, I don't get the hole virgin thing in heaven. I don't even get it here on earth. Like being with a virgin is so much fun! But in heaven I would assume we don't have bodies and we won't be having babies so what would the point of sex be? So no thanks, someone who is willing to occasionally fool around with me (I imagine that's a tall order to ask, but doesn't take much time) is all I need here on earth.

            And further, anyone who doesn't see that they don't get to have sex in heaven is a complete and utter moron. Evolution will take care of them.

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              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Does that mean you aren't a Muslim? It sounds like it. Heathen.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No no no, it means I'm not a moron. Please pay attention. LOL.

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                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  wow... feeling kind of offended on behalf of the Muslims now...  maybe I am just too easily offended.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Please Beth, anyone who blows himself up for 72 virgins in heaven where there are no bodies is a moron. Good bye, with any luck he was to stupid to take anyone with him. It's really that simple.

            2. Chris Neal profile image82
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Obviously this is a bit off topic but the Bible says that we will be given new, perfect bodies. So if you believe in the Heaven of the Bible then yes, we will have bodies.

              And we will, apparently, eat since there will be a tree that will bear twelve different crops, different fruits for each month (I think.)

              So the idea of purity, sexually speaking, once again takes on a certain significance.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Is that your belief? I guess we would have to be on another planet if we have bodies, we would need air to breath.

                1. Chris Neal profile image82
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, that is my belief. In Revelations it kind of sounds like another planet, i.e. the New Jerusalem (which has very specific measurements and is one giant cube.

                  I don't know if we would need air. It doesn't mention, but that doesn't mean we won't. It says that there will be no sun or moon because we will be in God's presence all the time (unadorned, we will be able to look right at Him) and his Spirit will shine like the sun (there will be no night.)

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    And you believe that because it's written in the bible and don't question it? The bible also says only thousands will get there (I believe) or at least it says he will show mercy to thousands which I assume would mean heaven. Those are slime odds considering the billions of Christians who have existed, now exist or will exist.

                  2. getitrite profile image81
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    No offense, but this sounds completely whimsical and absurd.  How can middle aged adults will themselves to be taken in by such childish, unreal, and totally foolish perceptions of reality? 
                    But....this is a prime example of Theists just downright refusing to use their critical thinking.  How disturbing!

                  3. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    lol

    5. 61
      Ack Taneposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Would atheists accept that they were in heaven?

    6. getitrite profile image81
      getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      If Atheists were allowed in Heaven, then I, as a believer, would be upset that I spent my whole life worshiping God, when I didn't really have to.  I could have saved valuable time on Sundays, and  could have actually not been afraid to use my critical thinking skills.  Alas, it goes for naught, as the Godless heathens will be able to enjoy eternity with me. 

                    Heads-Atheist wins
                    Tails - Atheist wins

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        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Reminds me of the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        There is a biblical story concerning that way of thought.

        http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=NIV

        1. getitrite profile image81
          getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I guess you are comparing Atheists to the workers who came later....but that is a misrepresentation.  Atheists would be the workers demolishing the rotten crops that this farmer has planted.  They will do no work to help him with his harvest.  No, quite the contrary.  So why would he pay them ANYTHING?

        2. Zelkiiro profile image85
          Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Reminds me of the hilarity that ensues when you tell Christians that Adolf Hitler was good little Catholic. "That's impossible!" they'll shriek, "He did evil things! He was no true Christian!" they continue on, invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy, and conveniently forgetting that Christians spent the entirety of the Dark Ages raping and torturing and burning and killing anything that moved.

        3. Chris Neal profile image82
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The point of that story, of course, is that the workers were working for God. Some just did more than others. getitwrong's point is that atheists for some reason are the only people who actually use their brains.

          Yeah right.

          1. getitrite profile image81
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I'm quite sure that most Theists actually use their brain, and some can even function on a high level, but when it comes to religion, that part of the brain is shut out, due to a false directive, that has been injected(in this case...by popularity)and erroneously accepted as fact.  Having unquestioning faith that fairy tales are reality is certainly not using ones critical thinking skills.  In fact it is VERY dangerous.

            1. Chris Neal profile image82
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Again, the broadness of your application and your faith in your conclusion aren't necessarily signs of correctness. It's easy (all too easy) to decide that something you don't understand has some kind of sinister underpinnings, but even if you were right (and you're not) about believers shutting down a part of their brain, that very line of thought can lead to something far more dangerous than the one you've perceived.

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      Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'd be surprised at a heaven that doesn't include everyone God made and loves, regardless of how they expressed their understanding of him while on earth.

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        MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Such wisdom, Mo, as always. Your words and concepts shine and are so inspiring and reflect the true meaning of Jesus and his teachings so well, in my opinion. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish more Christians were like you.

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          Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you, Mystic.  Most of what I believe about God has been turned over, turned around, flipped upside down and sideways, and examined under a microscope.  At the end of the day, no matter what the preachers, teachers, and evangelists have to tell me, I really have to either understand him for myself based on my experiences or live a life contrary to logic (which, to be fair, a life with God can easily be, since his ways are so vastly different from ours).  If after study of scripture and time spent in prayer, I'm able to experience true peace about a particular subject, I take that as his sign that I'm at least in the right ballpark.  smile

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            MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You're most welcome, Mo. In my opinion, you're not only well inside the right ballpark, you've hit a home run with bases loaded smile

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              Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you.  That's very humbling.  smile

    8. aka-dj profile image80
      aka-djposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I haven't read the entire thread, so I may repeat someone else's comment.

      What you describe here is Earth, here & now.

      Transferring our current state of being to Eternity, and then calling it Heaven, is pointless.
      How can it be a place, different to the "here & now"?

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I don't consider it pointless, or impossible to imagine all life in harmony. One thing would have to be removed from our collective psyche. Judgment. If we stopped comparing, cataloging, categorizing and doing it all to judge our individual worth and happiness; if you could view the world through the eyes of others and they through yours while giving no individual a higher value than the next hunger, disease, war and everything else that inhibits contentment could easily fall to the wayside.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Haven't read all the replies;  don't need to.

      It wouldn't be heaven if unbelievers were there.

      Duh.
      Christ is Christ.
      His followers are what?-----eh-----Christians.
      He is the only Way to heaven.
      He wants everyone to become Believers so that they CAN go to heaven.
      Once they become Believers, they would no longer BE Islamists, witches, Buddhists, or any "faith" outside of Christianity.
      So your question is ....twisted, to say the least.

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        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        There are some unbelievers who are more Christ like than Christians. It seems to me you comment is indicative of such.

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          Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's an unproven and false statement.
          Nope, unbelievers aren't more Christ-like than Christians, for the simple reason that Christians (born-again, blood-bought, sinners-saved-by-grace Christians)  have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God/Christ) within them.

          Now, I admit there are some Christians who are personally haughty, arrogant, unkind, etc.
          But a Christian who simply states the facts of the Bible and the Word of God in the flesh (as Jesus was) ,  as I just did,   is in no way "unChristlike".    It is the word of God.   If you want to try to make it mean something else just so you can point out your personal dislike of me or your dislike of born-again Christians in general (whichever your comments are indicative of), then that's your problem.

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            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Really, do you think Jesus would have been in favour of universal heath care? Do you think he would have asked the rich to help pay for the poor. Reading scripture it's clear he would have asked the rich to sell their belonging and help the poor. I know a fair amount of born agains and it seems to me they are not in favour of universal heath care. Why is that?

            And for the record, I don't know you so have no opinion of you. No dislike here. I'm sure you are a wonderful person, one that I just don't agree with.

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              Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Then please stop hinting that I'm unChristlike.

              As for Christ's teachings.........
              I'm pretty sure He meant that those who can do so should sell all their belongings and give to the poor;  in other words, ones who were willing to literally follow Him as He walked on earth.   That's what the disciples did---------they gave up their daily lives and literally went on His journeys with Him!    One of them (Peter) was, according to indications in the Bible,  even married.   Yet it doesn't say whether Peter had kids or other personal obligations.   Jesus didn't mean for anyone to literally desert their families if they were needed at home.   His words were a test of intent mainly,  as in who was willing to really devote their lives to His cause?   Whose heart was in spreading the word?    Who had the ability and the desire to follow Him?

              As far as the disciples too........there was a time when they lived all in accord and shared their finances and meals and property, yes.   But that was a group of Believers.   Not a mixed group of unbelievers and believers.   Not a "universal" group as in anybody and everybody got invited to share in that group, because it was only for His followers.    And indeed they had to take the judgement along with the privilege.  Matter of fact, God struck a couple of them dead because they didn't follow His rules.

              As far as "universal health care"........I dunno about all Christians, but this Christian is opposed to universal health care for several reasons, one of which is that it's unConstitutional.   It is a forced thing, a thing forced upon citizens.   There were already enough charities and volunteer groups and doctors and even big hospitals who helped the poor when they were sick and penniless.   Those were charitable, willingly charitable groups,  and I thank God for them!    Obama acts like the willingness to help one's fellow man has to be legislated and forced upon everyone.   It does not.

              Also his intent is critical to the message that he wants to perpetuate----supposedly "wealth sharing" and "helping our neighbors"  was created in his mind for a good purpose, but it was not.   His motivation is political and personal and selfish.    He used the liberal desire to legalize homosexuality as one of his tools to further his fame and image as the champion of "civil rights".    Which of course has added thousands if not millions of people to the burden that our health care system already faced.  Case in point------supposed "significant others" (mostly homosexuals, and specifically homosexuals even, according to the laws he proposed).....are now covered under homosexual soldiers' health insurance plans, chalking up votes for the great Obama of course!     And that of course has filtered to most insurance companies.    The insurance company I myself have under my husband's employment has sent out statements clearly vowing that they now cover the "partners" of homosexuals (who by very definition engage in unsanitary and unwholesome and medically-risky acts),  while at the same time trying to criminalize cigarette smoking.

              Also,  if you'd read up on this as it's been in the News "forever" now............Obama's intent is to cover illegal aliens.    Now, while I understand the plight of illegals if they're really just wanting a better life,  the truth is that they would've already gotten emergency help if they went to any hospital or clinic.    And the truth is that they're illegal, period.
              So, his agenda adds a huge huge population, an undue burden, to our already-full health care system in this Country.    His motive?-----------not to help all Americans.   His motive is simply to get as many votes as he can and promote his name, his image, as high as he can promote it,  while of course making lifelong Americans pay for it all.  Why?   Because he's narcissistic.   He's a man who would-be-Martin-Luther-King-or-Abe-Lincoln-type if he could,  but he can't do so legitimately because he's way behind the times!   Those men already were great civil rights leaders!   He had to have a fake "cause" to cover his agenda.   He is no Martin Luther King!   He is no Abe Lincoln!   What he is is an egotistical tyrant who has somehow succeeded in forcing a FINE (called a tax) upon the American people that they didn't volunteer for nor that they should be liable for.

              If there were a legitimate need for universal healthcare in this Country,  I wouldn't be against it.    And if there were to be, and if there is,  I would back it IF the intent of it were legitimate.    The motivation and implementation of any law is critical.    Obama,  with his so-called "brilliant" mind, could have come up with a plan to reform our existing health care laws,  cut down on fraud, etc., and really help the entire situation if he wanted to.   But he didn't want to.   What he wanted is what I said---------he wants fame and power;  he wants to be seen as a great civil rights leader.    He refuses to give in to the truth that our civil rights have already been equalized by men such as MLK and Lincoln and etc.     He isn't a man looking for his place in society!   He's a man who seeks to usurp the place of others in society.    Because he himself has no real moral goals, no legitimate agenda, no great moral principle to fight for.   It's all already been done by others way before him.  His intent is to force universal health care upon everyone;  that's what "Obamacare" is already doing------ruining our existing health care system and thereby forcing everyone onto the path of universal health care eventually.   Actually, "Obamacare" is a basis, a form, of universal health care already.

              He is lost.   And he will take anyone with him who is willing to follow him.    And has succeeded to a big degree.    Many people overlook the unconstitutionality of his "Obamacare" simply because he so boldly touts it as legit, and somehow even got the Supreme Court to back him.    Such is the state of this Nation now----a tyrant President and a corrupt Supreme Court.   
              God help America.   Hopefully, through the people of this Nation who are finally (I hope) starting to balk at being tyrannized by a man who shows no moral strength and no shame for anything he does or says.

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                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I'm no longer hinting, I'm stating.


                I love that, "I'm pretty sure He MEANT..." Here is what he said (according to the bible)

                Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

                So unless you are selling your stuff and giving it to the poor you're not listening to Christ.



                Surprise! Another supposed Christian opposed to helping his neighbour obtain health care. Not only is that not Christ like, it's pathetic as I am in favour and am willing to pay my fair share so all get equal health care treatment. Crap, I'm more Christ like than you.

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                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, since you are Canadian, offering to pay your share is pointless. Just so you know, Jesus never expressed a political opinion so considering yourself Christlike is a heck of a leap whose only purpose appears to be a 'Look at me! Look at me!' moment.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't express a political opinion. Read it again. I showed what the bible says Christ said about helping others. Me being Canadian has nothing to do with this discussion. It's just something you keep bringing up. I simply posted as to what it is to be Christ like.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sadly,  I think you actually think so.
                  Subtlety.  Twisting of Scripture, twisting of intent, avoidance of context and full content.   Such an easy temptation to fall into, isn't it?   For an unbeliever anyway.

                  Sorry, no empathy from me for someone who outright says they're personally accusing me.
                  Don't talk to me again if you're gonna keep doing that.   I respect decent, fair, and thoughtful conversation.  I don't respect the actions of anyone who resorts to personal attacks.   If you can't do better than you've done, go whisper your false accusations to yourself as you sit in the dark pit of confusion you're making for yourself.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL, I'm showing you what the scripture says, you are the one saying that you're pretty sure he meant…

                    And I'm twisting the scripture.

                    How un Christ-like. Twisting scripture, not wanting to help heal the less fortunate and hating homosexuals.

                3. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  "Surprise! Another supposed Christian opposed to helping his neighbour obtain health care. Not only is that not Christ like, it's pathetic as I am in favour and am willing to pay my fair share so all get equal health care treatment. Crap, I'm more Christ like than you."

                  I'll have to take Brenda's side on this one as I do not recall Jesus every robbing, or forcibly taking from one person to help another.  He absolutely suggested that we should help, but never, ever said we should force anyone to help anyone else.

                  So while it 's wonderful you are willing to do your share (but presumably a "share" designated by you and not more than that) but it is not so wonderful that you find it reasonable to force others to provide the support you think is reasonable.  The last is admittedly an assumption, but if you're berating Brenda for not liking Obamacare (forcibly requiring people to provide healthcare for others) then it seems a reasonable assumption to make.

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                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus is said to have said one must sell his possessions and give the proceeds to the poor to assure one gets into heaven. So, while he didn't force the person to help his fellow man he did teach that to be Christ like one must help others. I maintain that if she doesn't want to help the less fortunate she isn't behaving in a Christ-like manner.

                    It's most unfortunate that the Slave ethics of the NT doesn't appear to work in practice.

                    I'm not berating anyone, Brenda spends her time telling others they are not Christians if they think this or that. I think that her behaviour is un Christ like and if she wants to continue making second class citizens of anyone who isn't just like her and I'll continue to attempt to show her how un Christian her behaviour is and I'll continue to back it up with scripture.

              2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                There is no hinting, your words in this post show you to be very much unChristlike.,,


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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  She reminds me of a song they used to force us to sing in my Christian grade school.

                  They will know we are Christian by our love, by our love, they will know we are Christians by our love…

                  Don't you just feel the love in her words?

    10. MrHunter profile image59
      MrHunterposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Truth is exclusive, if it is truth. Are you asking the right question?

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I know I responded earlier but...I've had second thoughts and need some clarification. Would the really bothersome atheists still be bothersome? If so, I don't see the upside of heaven.

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    Emile Rposted 3 years ago

    That would be the only heaven that made sense.

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you EmileR, your answer was the only one that was on topic.

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        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. We're all stuck perceiving this reality uniquely. I can't imagine an eternal existence which would allow for retribution because we couldn't all agree on what that alternate reality might be.

  3. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago

    If the atheist does not wish to believe in God, then God will respect his wishes and won't bother said atheist with His presence afterwards, anyway.
    Is this statement true or not.
    I have no idea.
    But, I hope not.

    1. Claire Evans profile image89
      Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I find it interesting that God does not force Himself on people but that Christians feel the need to do it.  Jesus did not say that just because someone is not a believer in Him on this earth that they will go to hell.  He preached to those who wanted to hear.

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
        SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Excellent point sister.

        1. Claire Evans profile image89
          Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you. smile

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        MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Excellently stated, Claire.

        1. Claire Evans profile image89
          Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you. smile

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        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Claire, that's beautifully said, and incredibly important.  None of us knows the hearts and minds of others, no matter what we THINK we may know.  God does, and I have no doubt that many of us will be shocked to see who we're sharing heaven with someday. 

        smile

        1. Claire Evans profile image89
          Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks.  It is just too easy to say that all non believers don't have a chance of going to heaven because they died one.  There are many circumstances that make on a non believer.  For example, they were brought up one or have been disillusioned with Christianity because of a traumatic experience.  We just don't know and it is not for us to judge.  Even in the Bible Jesus will say to some Christians that He never knew them.

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            Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Agreed.  smile  Btw, your new profile pic is lovely.

            1. Claire Evans profile image89
              Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you. smile

          2. A Troubled Man profile image59
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            LOL. Thinking and using ones brain does not a traumatic experience make.

          3. getitrite profile image81
            getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Maybe some atheists just have the courage and intellectual honesty to see that all religions are stupid, and that there is no REAL desire for going to Heaven....the only motivation being a fear of permanent death, or fear of the other fictitious place....Hell.

            1. Claire Evans profile image89
              Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I think that intellectual honesty from an atheist is acknowledging it is impossible to negate God's existence.  An atheist can never be sure.   Someone should not be a Christian because they want to go to heaven.  It should be because they love Jesus.   If one is a Christian because they fear hell then they do not know Him.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                So, on the flipside, it is intellectual dishonesty for any theist to state Jesus, heaven or hell exists?

                1. Claire Evans profile image89
                  Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  For me to have intellectual dishonesty, I would have to know what I am espousing is for a fact not true.  Since I know it is not false that Jesus, heaven and hell exists.  You, however, cannot state for a fact Jesus is not he son of God.

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You supply the evidence for your own dishonesty.  "Since I know it is not false that Jesus, heaven and hell exists." is dishonest as you cannot know anything of the kind.  You have not shook the hand of Jesus, and neither have you visited heaven or hell.  You have spoken to no one who has, and have not even read the report of anyone writing of their experience in these things.  Only the words of politicians at Nicaea, compiling a politics based tome of modified 3rd, 4th or 5th hand reports designed solely to control other people's actions.

                    Dishonest is a mild term to use when you present opinion and imagination as absolute fact by saying such things as "I know it is not false..." but have no knowledge whatsoever.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, that is indeed intellectual dishonesty.



                    There is no evidence of that, none whatsoever. There is no evidence Jesus or your God even exists. It would intellectually dishonest for you to say so.

                  3. SwordofManticorE profile image73
                    SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I Clair, I can only agree with you about Christ and heaven existing, but as for hell, it was created by the early church to maintain control and gain wealth by using the powerful tool of fear. You will not find the word hell in scriptures original Hebrew or Greek.

              2. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No one knows a person that may or may not have lived 2000 years ago. You are in love with a fictitious character. It's like someone claiming to be in love with a movie or rock star. Find a real person to love.

              3. getitrite profile image81
                getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                That has nothing to do with the fact that your religion is stupid.  Saying that it makes sense is intellectual dishonesty.


                So are you sure that a God eating Dragon doesn't exist?  If you can't prove that a God eating Dragon doesn't exist, how can you be sure that he hasn't eaten your God?  Seems like YOU can never be sure.



                Yeah right, but given the other choices, they don't have much of a choice.  No matter what you have tricked yourself into believing, take away the allure of everlasting life, or the threat of Hell, and you have no desire to even believe any of this nonsense.



                Yet, again, if you take away the allure of ever lasting life, and the threat of Hell, loving Jesus goes right out the window.  And you could actually see how ridiculous it is that you have spent your life pretending to love a mere human, who has been long dead.

                 

                But the only reason that you pretend not to fear Hell is because you feel that Jesus is going to save you from it.  Hence you fear Hell.  That's why Christians force themselves to fall in love with a fictitious character in a book, based on the life of someone who was just a mere human.

                1. Jerami profile image77
                  Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I think it   ludicrousness to automatically assume the subject matter of a biography to be nonexistent simply because I do not believe everything written about that person.

                  I could write a story about  Javier Sotomayor  jumping tall buildings ... ..  and just because we do not believe this ...  this does not mean that he never existed, or that he does not hold the world record for the high jump.

                    However, I can not prove he can jump at all.  I've never seen him jump.  I can only choose to believe what I have read  OR   NOT!

                  1. getitrite profile image81
                    getitriteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    ?????  Of course, this is still desperately stretching logic to a breaking point, only to suit your indoctrination.  Otherwise it's absurd.

                2. Claire Evans profile image89
                  Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No one said it makes sense.  The supernatural transcends logic. 





                  The difference between God and that dragon is that no sane person has claimed to have a relationship with that dragon.  We have Christian scientist but I'm sure none of them have claimed to have had a relationship with dragons.  You, yourself, said God PROBABLY doesn't exist.  I'm sure you don't state that dragons probably don't exist.






                  I'm not motivated by what I can get in the afterlife.  I am motivated by love for God which naturally inspires a person to tell others about Him and to serve a life that He would want.   No god is ever worth following if people are obliged to worship him because of the fear of hell.  That is not love.  Love casts out all fear.  If one fears hell then one doesn't know God.






                  Maybe for some people but that isn't the case with me.  If a person truly loved another they would do good to them without expecting a reward.  You do not know what is in my heart and what I know.  You assume the resurrection didn't take place and I am telling you that you are wrong.

                   



                  That really does not come to the forefront when one loves Jesus.  If one loves Jesus, they will be inspired to spread that love and the message of Him.  If I worship Jesus because I only think He'd save me from it or because I'm frightened of it then I am nothing more than someone who is cornered to serve Him.  Fear enslaves people.  I will not be compelled to worship a God I do not respect or love.  Why waste my life then?

          4. 0
            MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Again Claire, you nailed it here. Bravo! smile

            1. Claire Evans profile image89
              Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. smile

  4. Peggasuse profile image89
    Peggasuseposted 3 years ago

    I believe that heaven holds no negativity.  We are all one, over there, and everyone loves everyone else.  The labels we give ourselves here, don't make any difference in heaven. 

    Anyone who doesn't believe this should read all the accounts of near-death experiences that have been recorded, some by professionals, some by Atheists, and some who on Earth, believed in different religions.  When they got there (to heaven), none of that mattered. 

    The only thing that did matter is how much love that person had given to others while he/she was in the body.   We complicate things down here on Earth, but truly, it's so simple.  All we really are here to do is show love to each other.  If we can do that, we've accomplished out goal.  Too bad it's so hard for some...

  5. TMDHemsley17 profile image90
    TMDHemsley17posted 3 years ago

    No, although it doesn't matter whether the idea is appealing or not. If there is no evidence to support the idea then there is no rational reason to believe it. Assuming it did exist and did allow atheists into heaven, it still sounds like an eternity there would become tedious pretty quickly. What could you possibly do for an eternity that would keep you preoccupied? Surely you can't spend you're time having a lot of sex, for example, as adultery is wrong according to Christianity. That's just one example, but my point is I think many people would grow bored of heaven as time went on.

    Interestingly, I've found that if non-believers were allowed into heaven, it would mean that belief in a god and the following of his rules and teachings is completely pointless and unnecessary. In effect it renders the whole idea of religious doctrine null.

    Consider a man who was raised in an irreligious household, and when he reaches an age where he begins to question life and his existence he comes to the conclusion that there is no god, no meaning to life, and he is free to live how he feels fit. So this man lives his life based on his own moral framework and his own meaning. He might have 'been around the block', indulged in hedonistic activities, possibly committed the odd crime, so on. When he dies, he indeed finds himself at the Pearly Gates, where God says "Atheists are very welcome in heaven, but you're guilty of adultery, and I don't like adultery, so you're not allowed in. It's fine that you don't believe in me, but you've still got to follow my rules".

    To allow atheists into heaven, God would have to accept that they don't believe in him, and therefore have no reason to follow his rules. To deny someone access based on the breaking of any of those rules would be absurd and illogical on God's part. In effect, in order for God's allowance of atheists into heaven to make sense, he would have to allow anyone and everyone into heaven, or simply not have any rules he thinks people should abide by.

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image73
      SwordofManticorEposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      How could anyone be bored of God and His kingdom because of living with atheists?

      1. TMDHemsley17 profile image90
        TMDHemsley17posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That wasn't what I said. Heaven is supposedly an eternal state of bliss, enjoyment, etc. Think of the activities and pleasures people indulge in in their finite lifetimes; people get bored of them on occasion. Think of doing them for an eternity, surely that would grow tedious over time. You would lose interest in heaven, possibly even desire for an actual end. Of course I am assuming that the pleasures of heaven are the worldly pleasures we enjoy today, but even if the experiences of an afterlife are so different that I cannot possibly comprehend them here and now, it still stands that people grow tired of things as time goes by. I don't really want to live to 80 years, let alone an eternity.

        Besides that was only a minor point of my comment, and not the main focus of my argument.

  6. rebekahELLE profile image91
    rebekahELLEposted 3 years ago

    I'm much more interested in life right here, now, regardless of what any one person believes.  I can choose who to be with and what kind of life I live. The concept of a place above the universe with a throne and angels and lots of religious people doesn't sound like eternal bliss.  Just take a look at what has been done in the name of religion up to and including our present day.

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Good point.  When heaven is under complete, total rule by religion what will it be?  Experience of what happens on earth when that goal is approached is not promising...

  7. RihanaFansite profile image61
    RihanaFansiteposted 3 years ago

    having belief in mind is a kind of helpfor us. it is more important for us that what our mind is.heaven  is in our heart.

  8. 0
    mbuggiehposted 3 years ago

    Is heaven, if it exists, an exclusive resort?

  9. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    RadMan wrote
    LOL. Cutting out assumptions are not what those who read the bible as truth are able to do. Where do you start and where do you end up? Who decides what to cut and how far to cut? Everyone thinks they can tell others how much to cut. So asking someone if they know how to interpret the bible is asking them if they know how to read.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    ME   
    I assume you are talking about Christianity!   The answer your question , …. “Who decides what to cut and how far to cut?”                                                                                                                          I would suggest;   forget every interpretation we have been taught.    Christianity is supposed to be centered upon Jesus Christ,  SO I would suggest everyone open the bible and read only those things that Jesus is said to have said. Attempt to not interpret anything he said.   
    Do not change the meanings of anything “written in red”   based upon something anyone else may have said.   After we have done this  …. If we can keep a clear head,  read Matthew 23 and 24 as if you were reading all of this for the first time.
    In Matthew 23 Jesus is telling the Pharisees and scribes things they were going to do to his followers.      In Matthew 24  four of his disciples ask Jesus in a PRIVATE conversation, “When are these things going to happen …”  Those things they heard Jesus saying to the pharisee.                                 Jesus goes on to tell them in a PRIVATE conversation many things which are going to happen TO THEM.    AND THEN he says  “This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled …”  Jesus said thin around 30 AD.  Twenty five years later Paul said "it has not happened YET" when some of the followers thought it might have already happened, they were all expecting it to happen soon.  1960 years ago Paul said it has not happened yet.  And there are people finding comfort, still pointing at Paul’s words believing “It has not happened yet.
    People interpret this statement “this generation shall not pass …”  to mean that Jesus was telling them of things which will happen way, way, way far into the future.  Why would Jesus even mention this to those people if he was not speaking of things that concerned them.                                      This is the father of hundreds of  misinterpretations.                                                                                                                      IMHO;   If we can understand scriptures without projecting different meanings upon simple statements, we would all reach different conclusions than the ones we have been clinging to.
    False interpretations are why there are so many different denominations of Christianity.

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You say false interpretation is the reason for so many sects. I say interpretation is the reason. False implies there is a correct way. Although I've read your posts and find your interpretation interesting, only time will tell if you are correct in your attempt to decipher prophesy.

      But, I agree with you that the words and actions of Jesus should be all that those who want to be Christian should worry about. Unfortunately, even the words in red should be viewed with caution. Each gospel infuses the thoughts of the writer. I think that may be one reason Jesus didn't put pen to parchment himself. Follow his lead, follow his action. Do as he does, not do as you think he said. As we can see on any occasion people discuss him; each understanding of what was said leads down a different path.

  10. 60
    cornerpostposted 3 years ago

    Totally I agree with you there. I am not a christian. My family pushed it down my throat
    As a child and as a result...well you see what I mean. I can't stand christians with their goody two shoes oh hey look at me. I'm so perfect attitudes about everything in general. You know.

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think anyone should be down on Christians as a whole.   self professed Christians/theists are as varied in their/our behavior as the rest of humanity.  Whatever my faults are (?) they would be mine regardless of religious orientation or the lack thereof.  We are what we are no matter what we call ourselves or think ourselves to be. 

          Christians say "I don't hate the sinner" they hate the sin.
      Maybe you should say "I don't hate the christian" I hate their sin?

    2. 0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I feel the same way about some atheists.

  11. stclairjack profile image78
    stclairjackposted 3 years ago

    read Mark Twains "letters from the earth".... 'ol Sam C. had an outlook on heaven that i think most of us would understand if we were honest about it,.... i have no clue nor do i care if all nations/creeds will be there,... i think that heaven, as it has been pretty much universally described for 100's-1000's of years,.... sounds boring as hell,.... no scratch that,.... hell sounds infinitely more interesting.

    lets think about this for a moment shall we????....... heaven is a place of euphoric happiness where we dwell with the divine creator,.... as i was led to believe as a child (my raising being different from ya'lls of course) we're all supposed to be wearing white flowing robes, singing in choirs and playing the harp,..... that pretty much cover the list of religious art for the last 2000 years?????......... ok,... i guess we get wings according to Christian mythology and i agree it would be pretty damn cool to fly,... but given that we're all wearing flowing white robes,... the view from below might get a bit sketchy,... hmmmm????

    lets not even go into the idea that only a small percent of the human race is musically inclined, let alone genuinely talented,.... so its going to be like a nuclear level karaoke bar in heaven,.... forgive me,... that sounds like hell.

    ive heard no mention of beer,... or steak,.... or pizza,... or chocolate .....or sex in heaven........... 99% of the human race spends the greatest portion of their lives in pursuit of THOSE very things all the while professing to want a heaven that, by all descriptions, contains NONE of these things.

    AND,.... by the standards widely accepted to gain entrance to this dull eternal karaoke bar,.... only the most sinless, stainless persons will be there, (the folks who blew themselves up as suicide bombers will be there too,.... and they already know how to fly so they can save the time of getting the wings fitted.)..... so it sounds dull,.... positively boring.

    so,.... if i understand this correctly,.... we should be striving to live lives that run contrary to the human nature that our alleged creator endowed us with,.... we should be denying ourselves all of the hedonistic pleasures that we've had the god given brain to devise over the millennia, in order to gain entry to a heaven that contains NOTHING that we as humans enjoy,.... milk and honey?,... really?........

    ambrosia????....... seriously that’s a Jello salad with cool whip and pineapple in it,… and I secretly kind f like it,….. But I don’t wana live off it.

    So I suppose my answer to your question is,…… I’m gleefully going to hell,…. The grill there is already hot, should be perfect for steak,… all the really interesting people will be there,…. Hitler, Kennedy,.. Jimmy Hoffa ,…. A quarter of the popes,….. If FDR is there we’ll have a martini.

  12. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    What-"IF"-All-theist-and-all-atheist-are-right-and-wrong-at-the-same-time?--what-if-the-right-answer-is-smack-dab-in-the-middle?

    1. 59
      Camaelfposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      If you figure that out, wouldn't that become another religion? Are you a prophet?

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Would-you-like-for-me-to-answer-answer-yes-?--well-I-can't.-------------Would-a-prophet-need-a-new-key-board-cause-his-space/tab-key-doesn't-work.---------

        1. bBerean profile image61
          bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Good   point.      Sorry,   I'm   over   compensating   in   response.

          1. JMcFarland profile image92
            JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            roflmao....This literally made me laugh out loud.  Thank you for this big of humor in my Wednesday.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              How's my fav other Atheist who must be busy cause I've not been entertained by her thought provoking post and have been missing her greatly?

              1. JMcFarland profile image92
                JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I'm good.  Started college this week, so I'm trying to juggle my new responsibilities with my old responsibilities.  I've been reading a lot, but didn't want to comment on much of it because doing so would either earn me a ban or get my computer thrown out of the window so as not to be contaminated with the stupid :-)

            2. bBerean profile image61
              bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Julie, it does me good to think I made you smile.

          2. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Reminds me of Captain Kirk.

            1. bBerean profile image61
              bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I   was   channeling  him   as  I  typed  it....

              D**n it Jim! What can I do?  I'm a doctor not a spacekey repairman!

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Cap'n Kirk wouldn't say "Jim". That's his own name... c'mon man!

                1. bBerean profile image61
                  bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Nor was Jim a doctor...so....I moved to the next logical line, that of "Bones".

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    There's some things you can't play loosey goosey with sir... the original Star Trek is one of them.

                2. Chris Neal profile image82
                  Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Star Trek, TOS. Boldly going where, um, where, um, Twilight Zone had gone before!

                  Give me the red pill!

        2. 59
          Camaelfposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Try it!

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Right in the middle?  What would that be - a God that created all, but was incompetent or stupid and did not do it right?

      Maybe that made the earth but then had to wait a billion years to make life because it was being pelted with rocks?

      Maybe that man all the animals but man in pairs, then had to partially disassemble the man for parts to make woman?

      That made the woman evil, then tempted her with an apple, knowing she would fail the test?

      That made His creations so poorly that He had to wipe them all out and start over?

      That was unable to make an eye that would last more than a few years?  Or joints the same, so that His beloved creations would suffer arthritis pain half their life?  That filled the world with diseases so his loved ones could suffer even more?

      That has the morals of a beast - using the might makes right principle almost exclusively?

      That kind of god?

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        extremist-both-atheist-and-extremist-fundamentalist-are-way-0n-the-left-and-right-from-center.--cause-the-path-is-wide-while-the-way-is-narrow.-----you-seem-to-be-capable-of-recognizing-the=extremist-fundamentalists-prospective.----So-disregard-that-part-as-being-untrue.!!!!-----------------------------------It-is-my-theory-that-humanity-as-a-whole-isn't-supposed-to-agree-as-to-what-the-truth-is.--For-if-we-knew-what-that-truth-is------that-would-cause-the-whole-plan-to-fail.------It-is-too-easy-to-become-close-minded-in-our-self-perceptions-of-being-open-minded.----I-think-most-of-us-fall-under-that-category.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Interesting concept.  If knowledge of truth would cause the plan to fail, whatever could the actual goal of the plan be?  To populate Hell?

          1. Jerami profile image77
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Pardon-the-(_)-instead-of-the-space.-----We-have-covered-the-Roman-influence-upon-religion-and-so-many-other-topics-too-many-to-repeat-now----I-can't-explain-adequately-so-I'll-oversimplify-.-----Quantum-physics-explains-there-are-what-?-10-or-11-dimensions.---while-our-scientific-methods-can-only-operate-in-three.----(?)----The-only-thing-which-makes-since-to-me-is-that-this-thing-theists-call-God-resides-in-one-of-these-other-dimensions.----And-in-the-first-chapter-of-Genesis-God-said-"Let-US-make-man-in-our-image".--The-physical-realm-didn't-exist-yet.--So-US-can-not-be-talking-about-the-trinity-as-religion-would-have-us-to-believe.---So-whoever-US-was-in-that-other-dimension-created-this-dimension.---It-is-also-written-that-the-earth-and-everything-in-it-was-created-(simply)-for-his-(their)-pleasure.-------IMO---according-to-scripture,-this-physical-dimension-was-created--as-"kinda-like"-that-T.V.-show-"fantasy-island".----If-we-were-fully-aware-that-this-is-just-a-fantasy,-the-illusion-of-reality-being-gone-would-eliminate-most-of-the-value-that-we-have-for-the-experience.---------"IF"-this-concept-has-any-truth-AT-ALL-(?)This-would-explain-many-of-our-questions-concerning-WHY-a-God-would-do-many-of-the-things-that-is-written-in-the-OT.----"IF"-there-are-10-or-11-dimensions-as-quantum-physics-suggest-?-it-only-makes-sense-that-these-dimensions-are-interactive-in-some-way.---------------I-will-go-out-tomorrow-and-buy-another-key-board!!--sorry-about-the---'s

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Can't see that it makes any difference whether a different dimension or a different universe, except that the gods apparently violate natural laws at will and those laws would seem to hold true for all the dimensions we occupy.  Plus there is some slight evidence that there MAY be at least one more universe "out there" somewhere.

              "It is written".  Sorry, that someone, somewhere and somewhen wrote something down is exactly zero reason to believe it to be true.  Nevertheless, if we were created for amusement any actions of the gods from that creation would seem insufficient reason to worship OR love them.  It completely nullifies the entire concept of god as presented in modern mono-theistic religions, leaving man with nothing.  No "gods" as we understand the term, nothing that loves us. no eternity, nothing supernatural to love.  And, of course, zero understanding or knowledge about what gods might be out there.

              It does, indeed, put man back into the same place he came from: "I will believe in gods because I want to, not because I have any reason to do so."  Any and all "evidence" for these gods can only stem from ignorance, not from knowledge.

  13. Jonathan Janco profile image80
    Jonathan Jancoposted 3 years ago

    Jeeeezzz!

    It's threads like this that remind of why most of the people I associate with these days are neither atheist or religious.

    That being said, yes I would want to be in heaven and yes I believe that people of all faiths as well those without adhering to a faith would be there.

    However, I feel the need to point out, first of all, that the Christ parable is lifted almost exactly from the myth of Hermes in Greek mythology.  In fact, the term 'christ' comes from the Greek word 'khristos' which means to anoint. In a nutshell, Christ or khristos is a psychological term that describes a very peaceful and humble acceptance of all things. To be free of judgment, scorn, hatred and fear. Now that would be heaven as far as I'm concerned.

    1. 0
      MysticMoonlightposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Don't forget that the Christ parable is mirror image to that of the Dionysus, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Bacchus, and Mithras myths as well, all of which were about a dying and resurrecting god-man.

  14. 60
    fleetersamuelliposted 3 years ago

    would athiests be appealing if heaven were there?

  15. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    I hope it's ok to post this link here. It was a great story from an Atheist/Agnostic in the Clinton admin. I thought I'd share it with anyone who was interested.



    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/201 … paging=off

 
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