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does a supernatural event occur at some point?

  1. profile image0
    christiananrkistposted 3 years ago

    i asked this question in the Q&A section a while back and only got 1 response. given any worldview wouldnt a supernatural event had to have taken place at some point? most theist would obviously say a god/gods created everything. both theists and atheists for the most part dont disagree with the big bang theory. correct me if im misunderstanding the big bang, but isnt that also just a point in time? seems like either everything was created by something eternal or everything sprang up from nothing. Both in my opinion would be supernatural or other than natural occurrences.

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, the big bang was not a point in time as there WAS no time at the instant of it's happening. 

      Supernatural?  I suppose so as there were no natural laws, either, and so was by definition outside the natural world of laws.  It doesn't fit the idea of a supernatural world (universe), either, though...

      1. profile image0
        christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        that concept has always confused me. how could there be no time? is time a physical thing? was the big bang a thing that banged, or nothing that banged? if its the first where did that thing come from? if its the latter, can you explain how nothing can bang? sorry to ask questions irrelevant to the discussion i originally posted. i know it wouldnt be a supernatural world, but does seem to be a supernatural event.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You're asking question that no one can answer with definitive answers.

          However, as I understand it, the big bang created the space/time continuum, including time itself.  It created all mass, and it created the natural laws of the universe.

          While there may have been a cause, there may not have been one; not everything needs a cause to produce an action.  Did it happen as a result of natural causes?  No one knows, but there is certainly no indication that a god was necessary to bring it about. 

          If you wish to define it as supernatural, have at it.  You might want to think about what that word means first, though - exactly what does "supernatural" mean, how does it affect the natural world?  Is it even there, as there has never been any indication that it exists?  Is it just a meaningless buzz word, created to mean "I don't know" or "It has to do with my God"?

          1. profile image0
            christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            no offense, but if i said to most atheists i know, "You're asking question that no one can answer with definitive answers", i would get ripped apart. i feel like the questions i asked are legitimate questions. maybe that just my opinion. can you give an example in the natural world where something has gone into action without a cause? i cant think of one. even so, seems like such an unimaginable sized explosion would need a cause. im ok if people dont want to go with a creator caused it, but to say it can just happen seems unscientific and unnatural. supernatural -  being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena (from dictionary.com)

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What happens without a cause?  Electrons move about the nucleus without a cause.  Subatomic particles pop into and out of existence without a cause.  A great deal happens without a cause, just nothing we are familiar with in our everyday lives.

              Listen to yourself:  A singularity (about which we know nothing) explodes into the universe (an action we know extremely little about) and natural laws including time (a concept outside any of our experience) and you want to say there has to be a cause because everything you're familiar with has one. 

              When you have spent a lifetime studying cosmology and physics, you might (might) have a reason to make such a statement.  Until then, you most definitely do not.  You can only go with what those who HAVE made that study say, and they all say there need be no cause for the big bang.  That you cannot imagine the big bang without a cause means exactly nothing as you have neither the experience nor knowledge to even consider it.

              1. profile image0
                christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                funny thing is you're the one turning this into a religious debate. why because i mentioned God? because i have christian in my name? i was simply stating what most theists believe as an example of supernatural. by the way you do the same thing. why do you say those things dont have a cause? because nothing familiar to you can possibly explain it? since nothing you know of could cause these things they must not have a cause, right? and how about religion? when you spent a life time studying all there is to know about a possible creation , every religion, and the possibility of supernatural events, then and only then can you assert there is no God. why do you say there isnt one? because you not familiar with anything supernatural happening in your own life? Now, where does this type of argument take us? nowhere. so , why don't we just get of the christians are ignorant because they believe in God horse. its old. do you seriously think i haven't heard all these statements before? i do thank you for the 2 examples you gave and for actually answering my questions though. Everything after was unnecessary and unhelpful. this is why i ask the questions i do. to possibly learn and get helpful insights. one more point. there is evidence for ID. and i am positive you have heard some. just because you accept it, or consider it reliable, doesn't make it not evidence. .

        2. psycheskinner profile image81
          psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          We don't need to be able to explain it by the rules reality has now.  Because it had different rules then.  And even not being able to explain it at all does not make it magic.

          1. profile image0
            christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            when you say rules, do you mean every natural law we know according to science? how could the laws of physics or thermodynamics for example change over time?

        3. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The theory is not that nothing banged. Much like a bomb all the material is said to have been compressed into the tinniest of spots and for reasons not yet understood decompressed. Time is not really constant and where high amounts of gravity exist time is slowed down, like in a black whole. The concept of something occurring without the time to do it is rather interesting.

          1. profile image0
            christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            that is interesting. i guess i have to do more research on time. it doesn't seem like time itself can be slowed down to me. only how we perceive it. such as how we determine a 24 hour period. even the explosion of the tinniest thing there could ever be, still leaves in my mind the question, where did that come from?

    2. psycheskinner profile image81
      psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, there are world views where the supernatural simply does not exist.  From that point of view everything coming from "nothing" (or however all this stuff got here) does not need to do so with the help of ghosts or pixies or psychic whatsits or Gods. Not knowing exactly how it happened just means we don't know exactly how it happened.  No need to fill the gaps with stuff outside the domain of stuff and energy.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Good point.  Ignorance is never a reason to simply make up an answer.

        1. profile image0
          christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          im not making up answers. i simply explore EVERY option, and choose to believe what i think is the best answer. its having a theory and going with it. some of the best discoveries in our world was because some one came up with a theory.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And that is a reasonable method of finding truth, right up to the point where the "best" answer is chosen.  Without evidence of being true or real, no answer can be the best possible.  If NO answer has evidence then no answer is best.

            This is in direct confrontation with ID; that answer has zero evidence to back it.  Instead, ignorance of what happened is used to proclaim that it is the only thing possible.  An obvious fallacy when arguing from ignorance.

            1. Zelkiiro profile image84
              Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Argument from Ignorance has claimed people much greater than moronic Intelligent Design proponents, as well. Both Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein come to mind, as the former stated that the only way gravity was possible was because of God's will, and the latter proposed a Cosmological Constant because he didn't want to believe the universe was expanding (and, by extension, had a beginning).

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                One has to wonder about the political ramifications of Newton's declaration - did he know better but wish to live outside a jail cell?  We'll likely never know.

                Einstein - sounds rather like proposing dark matter because we want to believe the universe is expanding.  Science does this all the time, then looks for proof one way or the other.  That's why I say it is a reasonable method of discovery.

                Unfortunately, "proof" of ID is that the myth is present in the minds of proponents.  That and our ignorance of the details of the big bang...

              2. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It's become human nature to claim God done it when one doesn't understand something. That was Newton's error. But it wasn't Einstein's, that's why Einstein got gravity correct and Newton had it wrong.

                1. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Is it possible that thousands of years ago, when language was in it's infancy, that "goddunnit" meant "I don't know"?  That it slowly changed to "Do what I tell you or else" with changes in the power structure of the tribe?

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Everyone wants to be a know-it-all, so when people are asked questions like "Where did those stars come from?" they could always answer with Goddonit.

      2. profile image0
        christiananrkistposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        in what world view or explanation has everything gotten here from natural causes?

 
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