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Straight forward factual of the Atheist condition

  1. Ericdierker profile image81
    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago

    Sometimes we should get tired of avoiding debate.

    It is my well learned understanding that Atheists just cannot operate on faith. Now sometimes Atheists get upset at that suggestion. They should not in my opine. They should just agree and take it from there.

    I cannot evaluate and analyze anything without the empathic and spiritual and "psycho-mumbo-jumbo" coming in. I just cannot be hyper critical and use cold logic of a mathmatical sense in isolation of "feelings".

    What I am saying is that I cannot completely isolate one from another. I understand both in an intellectual sense but I cannot separate them completely in my being.

    So if I can admit that why can't atheists admit the other way around?  Why is it an insult instead of a fact?

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I have never met an atheist that claims to operate on faith.  Not one.

      If you have, we have a very different group of acquaintances.  Most atheists pride themselves somewhat on their ability to reason, and operating on faith is very much the antithesis of reason - it's why believers and atheists have such trouble communicating at all.

      1. bipolartist profile image81
        bipolartistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You said it much better than I could. I scolded instead. hmm

      2. DzyMsLizzy profile image93
        DzyMsLizzyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Well said, wilderness!

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      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Wait, I get it… you are under the impression that because atheists don't have faith in any invisible, undetectable God they can't have faith in anything or anyone.

      Did I get that right?

      Sorry, I have faith in many things and a lot of people, just not in anything unproven and or undetectable or something that can't be demonstrated.

      1. Will Apse profile image90
        Will Apseposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Eric 25 Everyone Else 0

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      Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I've apparently misread something because i don't get the same thing out of the OP others seem to have. I assume faith is referred to strictly in the spiritual sense. Of course atheists wouldn't operate on faith in that way. Itake the standard atheist argument as you can't apply faith unless there is something concrete to back it up. Which there isn't. So, taking something spiritual on faith equates to accepting the imaginings of yourself and others as fact. I don't see it as difficult to understand why they can't and have problems with those who can. Or why they are vocal in pointing it out

      You might tell me what I've missed here

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I hope that is what I was talking about. You phrase a "won't" and "do not" I phrased it as "you cannot". Perhaps apples and oranges or just our own self will.
        So straight out: Do you think you do this by will or by inability? I am able to have faith. I suggest you are incapable of it, and not just desirous of not doing it.

        1. Mark Lees profile image87
          Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Any act of trust is an act of faith. I have never met an atheist who cannot trust at all- so your argument is defunct.

          To give an example- every time I buy a meal from a restaurant I have faith that they won't spit in the food. I don't know they won't- I have no reasonable way of checking but I trust the restaurant staff to not spit in my food. And that simple trust is an act of faith.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I tried running that through this atheist community and they said I was wrong. That they have no faith/belief at all.
            Square that for me.

            1. Mark Lees profile image87
              Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The parameters of the discussion would set a specific definition of faith- it you parameters led them to believe the discussion was about spiritual faith then they are obliged to say they have none. That is the difficulty with making such broad and obviously contentious statements- they can mean different things to everybody.
              It could just as easily be that they hadn't thought about the relationship between trust and faith- people often compartmentalise information.

              It is also possible to be an atheist and be spiritual. See here: http://www.spiritualatheism.com/

              Bunching all athiests into one group based on your discussions with a few is the same as saying anybody who believes in god is this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz

              The dabate, the context and personal history give the meaning to the individual terms. A signs signifier/signified relationship depends on numerous factors and that is not a discussion for hubpages forums.

              1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I had a look at that and their definition of "Spiritual Atheist", it seems they have just redefined the word 'spiritual' to mean something completely different than the original definitions, yet have not really defined the word because they use the phrase "in some way" as part of the definition.

                Makes no sense.

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                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Reminds me of a conversation I had years ago with an Atheist about the band U2. I mentioned to him that U2 is a Christian rock band and he replied that they are just spiritual. As it there is a difference between a Christian rock band and a spiritual rock band. I think it simply made him feel better for liking the band.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    That's pretty funny, Bono is a well-known Jesus freak, most of his lyrics are about Jesus.

                2. Mark Lees profile image87
                  Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I am not saying I agree with spiritual atheists just that some people believe it is possible.

                  As I mentioned earlier definitions are automatically subjective (which is why dictionary definitions are at best guides and in some cases actually obstructions to finding the real meaning.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    They appear to be very confused as they can't even stick to simple definitions and have to make them up using defined words.



                    Okay, so what is subjective about their use of that word? They don't even know. It seems they just pulled it out of thin air (or somewhere else).

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          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So you think you are able and others are unable?

          Let's see what happens when we use this same logic in reverse order.

          I am (able) to see the reality of our universe without an invisible sky daddy. Are you (unable) to do the same. Are you (unable) to think at my level?

          See how that sounds the other way around?

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I do think I have a disability. In that regard. While I study and learn, I just cannot remove my lenses that make me see logic and science as part of the spiritual realm. It is just hard for me to break out of the "Zen" of a connected truth.
            I hope that helps in understanding. But I did put this in the in the beginning.

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              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Okay, so you admit to being unable to do what I can do, which is to control your thoughts using logic? You can't suspend your beliefs long enough to look at the reality long enough to see faith for what it is.

              Interesting, I am however (able) to have the kind of faith you are talking about as I once did have faith. The fact that I was able to suspend that faith for long enough to look at faith objectively led me to where I am today.

              Perhaps this is the key difference between those with and without faith. You assume or so it appears that we are (unable) to be in the position you are in as if that's what we all want, but in reality it's your (theists) inability to suspend your beliefs long enough to objectively examine them that is the key difference between those with faith and those without.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Of course I hold the opposite point of view. Because you could once climb a mountain, now only means you can understand, but not that you can still climb, take my word for it I am old and fat.
                I propose that you can no longer have faith. And that is OK with me. But do not suppose that I cannot have logic and scientific inquiry.

                Or are you saying they are exclusive of each other? To which I say: Only by incapacity and there is no incapacity for a believer to know science. Just a choice not to worship it.
                (all antagonism here is meant for straight forward frankness not angst) For I know you now and think very highly of your contributions to greater thought.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  We can all have both faith and logic/science, it's only a matter of which one can actually show the real truth.

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                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  No angst taken and none intended.

                  How then do you explain those Atheist who become theists? How do you then explain the faith I have that the moon and sun will rise everyday?

                  You see I do have the ability to have faith which can be demonstrated with the things I do have faith in, but you can't demonstrate that you can objectively look at your own faith. Can you for instance examine your own faith as you would the faith of the ancient Egyptians or Greeks? If you say you can then lets do it together.

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Is it possible to have an Atheist "mystery of faith".

                    I pretty much do that. I am criticized for it, but they keep inviting me back because it seems to work.
                    This faith thing, if it is caused by fear or ignorance it is dangerous. There is something in that "free will" notion that requires knowledge. At least an honest attempt at it.
                    If I finish preaching and someone says "now I get it" I have failed. If I finish preaching and someone says "I have to think on that a bit" halelujah some how this old boy did good.

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                    Deepes Mindposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Technically, neither the sun or moon actually rise or set. The "rising" of the sun and "setting" actually has to do with the rotation of the earth that places certain parts in line with the sun and moon...


                    Don't mind me, I just always wanted to do that...lol

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          Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I think it is a trait one strives to attain. I think it is human nature to take things on faith, which is one of our downfalls so you have to constantly evaluate why you think what you think.

          Although, some probably are incapable.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I hear you here. I think the "great divide" between "believers and non-believers" has some basis in inability to transcend and bridge the "two worlds".
            I think that when I see aggravation and angst that it is a result of an ego driven fear related push when trying to and yet not achieving understanding between the two.
            I hope that made sense within the context of this apology.

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              Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I think seeing aggravation and angst might upset some who don't see themselves as aggravated or full of angst. Sometimes, we just have to accept that people are different and accept their words at face value; without attempting to read emotions into them.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                That is wise. With my wife I am required to notice and pay due attention but never mention anything behind the words --- just act on them. Sometimes it is a bit confusing. But over eleven years into the relationship and a great son, indicates it is working.
                We really do not need to be in someone's face. But here we come to discuss not make happy or at the least both. As you make me happy to learn your point of view, well worth the effort!

    4. Claire Evans profile image89
      Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      If one goes about life analyzing everything in a logical way they will never have even proof of God's existence.  Once a person realizes there are just some things that cannot be explained, it opens up the door for faith.

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        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Right, the intellect can't find it, so one need to shut intellect down and suddenly it appears. The same thing could be said for just about anything. I can't find any evidence for a flying dragon, but I can with my imagination. Does that make it real or imagined?

        1. Ericdierker profile image81
          Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Where do you get this notion that Christians have no intellect? It is absurd. Let me see --- USA last 10 presidents stated that they were Christian and took an oath of office on a Holy Bible. I do not think these guys shut down their intellect, just so the could believe in God.

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            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I said no such thing. Please go back and read my post and the one I was responding to. She said God can't be found using the intellect, to find him one have to start with faith. I didn't say theists were shutting down the intellect for other aspects in their lives.

            1. Ericdierker profile image81
              Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Yep just reread it you said what I said you said -- "shut  intellect and it suddenly appears"
              OTOH I do see your point, we do kind of have to shut down the physical senses to be spritual.

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                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                That's the whole faith thing isn't it? Just don't think about it and your good, I'm sure you don't approach the rest of your life that way. Good thing doctors don't just have faith that we will be okay, Me "Hey doc, what's this big lump in my side?"
                Doctor "You'll be fine just don't think about it, I won't speculate what it might be because I'd then lose faith that you'll be fine."

      2. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You are correct - analyzing the world logically will not produce proof of a god.

        But why would anyone choose to live as there is one even without proof (or evidence at all)?  Just for the good feeling, the assurance they will live forever?  Why would anyone at all decide there IS a god even when it cannot be found?

        1. Ericdierker profile image81
          Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          wilderness now you are denigrating those who can know something without proof. That is a slippery slope for a good man.
          I decide there is a God because I know God. You do not, and here you highlight the point of the forum.
          Just as with the naked eye, you cannot see what I can with a telescope. Yet I can see God but you cannot. Your vision is not more accurate than mine. (vision in a spiritual sense)

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            1.  No one can "know" something without proof/evidence.  They can only believe.

            2.  I do not denigrate: I ask why one would ever put belief ahead of knowledge.  This is, to me a valid question and at the root of religion.

            I do not believe you can see a god; if you could you could photograph it.  A camera will, after all, receive and record all wavelengths your eye will.  And "vision" is not factual in a spiritual sense, only emotion based feelings.  You do not gain knowledge from those, outside of knowledge yourself and your strengths/weaknesses.

            1. Ericdierker profile image81
              Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Where did you get no. 1?  And who gets to decide what evidence is admissible and relevant? You are going to say that for me there is no evidence and because you cannot understand my evidence that it is worthless?
              I do not think that you know absolutes for if you did there would be nothing left to learn.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                #1 seems self evident to me; subjective thoughts, feelings and emotions do constitute proof of the world outside the person.  Only when other people can experience the same proof can it be considered proof.  A drug induced hallucination, for instance, is not proof the sky is falling.  A self induced feeling that god is manipulating your memories or thoughts is not proof it happened.

        2. Claire Evans profile image89
          Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I do have proof of God but it can only be proven to myself.  It's not like I can present it to you and you will be convinced.  I would never waste my life worshiping something I don't even know exists.  To me, that kind of worship has an ulterior motive like, "I just worship God even know I don't even now He exists just to insure me heaven or get out of hell."

          1. Mark Lees profile image87
            Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            It is only proof if it can be shared and demonstrated to be true again. You have felt what you perceive as god and call that proof- well I have felt a chill on a warm day but I don't think it was Jack Frost.

            1. Claire Evans profile image89
              Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I didn't say it was empirically proven.  There is proof in earthly standards and proof for spiritual things.  They are completely different things.

              1. Mark Lees profile image87
                Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                If you cannot demonstrate it to others it is not proof.
                Some definition of the word proof (although generally I hate using these kinds of definitions):
                1.  The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

                2.
                a.  The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.

                b.  A statement or argument used in such a validation.

                3.
                a.  Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.

                b.  The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.


                The common thing is that they are used to demonstrate or persuade- if it cannot do either it is not proof. Nor even evidence.

                1. Claire Evans profile image89
                  Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  This is just semantics.  I know God exists because of proof given to me.  It is proof to me not even one else.  The supernatural doesn't abide by proof definitions.

                  1. Mark Lees profile image87
                    Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    If it is personal to you why do we need churches?

                    And it is not just semantics- if it cannot be shown to others it is not proof. You can claim to know "god" but this guy was sure his neighbours dog was telling him to kill people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz - to him it was "proof" that he experienced it but I don't believe in demon dogs anymore than your personal god.

                  2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    That is why the word, "delusion" exists in our language, it allows everyone else to distinguish your proof from their reality.



                    Are you saying you know how the supernatural works and by what rules it follows?

                    By definition, the supernatural is supposed to be that which is not part of nature, not even part of our universe, so we would never know of it and it would not know of us, because the moment when the supernatural interacts with nature, it becomes an act of nature if nature is affected in any way.

                    If you say you have knowledge of how the supernatural works, then by definition, you somehow interacted with the supernatural, which would be an act of nature if you were affected in any way, and clearly you were affected because you gained knowledge of it. Therefore, that in itself constitutes evidence we can observes and measure and therefore see exactly if the supernatural exists and how it works when it interacts with nature.

                    Sadly though, none of this has actually come to fruition that anyone can show. If nothing else, science would probably have an edge on us when it comes to that sort of thing.

              2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Since we aren't able to observe the proof for spiritual things, we can't possibly know if spiritual things really exist. If the proof only exists for that one person, then that is the world they have created for themselves, which is distinguished from the rest of reality as what's commonly know as a "fantasy".

                1. Claire Evans profile image89
                  Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  What makes you think no one is capable of observing spiritual things.  Often it takes many years to understand why God works in one's life.  In retrospect you can see it how it all comes together for one's good.  Then that proof strengthens one's relationship with God because you know it will work out in the end.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Uh, because we would all know it, obviously.

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                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Such comforting words. To bad it's a product of your imagination.

  2. Lowdown0 profile image84
    Lowdown0posted 2 years ago

    I ask atheist if God doesn't exist why do you have to deny that he does?
    I'm not sure this makes sense, but it seems to hit on a paradoxical conundrum which baffles their already flimsy logic.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Have you stopped beating your wife?  Much the same, isn't it?

      1. April Garner profile image87
        April Garnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, it is very much the same.  You cannot argue logically about whether or not God exists.  That is the very nature of faith.  To take something on faith means you assume it is true without proof.  I think we all do that with some things, for example I take it on faith my husband doesn't cheat on me, even though I don't follow him around all day.

        1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
          AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Faith is good, blind faith is not!
          Faith is fine as long as it inspires you, and gives you hope, not when you rely on it to solve everything. Have faith, but don't depend on it.
          You have faith in your husband because you know him well enough to believe that he won't cheat on you; that's more logic than faith. How will you react if you find something suspicious? Will you completely ignore it? If yes, that's blind faith. If no, then is it really faith?

          You can't have faith in something that you just assume is true, that's blind faith. YOU ARE PURPOSELY NOT THINKING ABOUT IT because you know YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS!!
          It's ignorance!!

          Have faith in yourself. That way you can be independent and free.

          1. April Garner profile image87
            April Garnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            So maybe faith is based on circumstantial evidence?  Thoughts?

            1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
              AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Not really; I believe faith is sometimes hope, sometimes it's motivation, sometimes it is power. Logic is based on evidence. Don't mistake it for faith!
              Tell me something; What do you believe in? God, Jesus?
              Why? When did you start believing?

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Jesus Christ is the epitome of Love. Our oft repeated understanding of Him is so pure in love that it brings a goal to live by and try to emulate. When we study what is said of Him it is hard, very hard, to find fault outside of our empirical world.
                I unlike most Christians truly believe that we are all born in love. Jesus is our symbol of that love. And so we are actually born in Jesus and it is not a matter of when we believed but when we understood we believed in Jesus as love.
                This power is all we need. At least it is all I need. Black and white and night and day --- if I live in love then love lives in me and all things are good.
                On the other hand I believe that if I study the plants around me and the weather conditions and the animal poop I see I can tell you where water is to be found. Not by faith but by science and logic. And in my case an integration with a sense of what is in the moment. Some call that forensics.

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                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I cannot find fault in the teachings of Gandhi, but that doesn't mean I think he's a God.

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    My friend rad man I do not think he is God but I know for sure that God is part of him and he part of God.
                    Love is not a box or even electrical current or teaching it is a state of being and that being is part of and from God.
                    You are God and Ghandi is God, for how else does God show himself to me so I can grow and be happy, free and loving?

                2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  That would be a narrow minded view, unhealthy over zealous worldview that ignores much of what many other philosophical leaders have said. Sure, we can easily find fault in Jesus just as we can find fault in other leaders.

                3. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  But you don't have a true understanding.  Only that which you have made up - have decided what a god should be like and assigned those attributes to Him.

                  The only record you have of your god - the bible - does not portray god to have the same attributes as you give Him.  Not even close.

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Hold on here Holy batman. I know this makes you crazy but I personally know Jesus. I just plain wake up and then go to sleep with the fellow and walk with Him all day long.
                    If you cannot understand that. Then just admit that you cannot and do not cuss me for being able to not only understand that but live it. That is what I am saying here. You do not know the man or the God. I do. And no there is not book that I got that out of, I was born with it.  I was born without my wife but now I love her and know her and do not want to be with out her and there is no evidence of that fact --- it just is.

              2. April Garner profile image87
                April Garnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I don't believe in God.  I believe Jesus was a very influential, extraordinary person but no more than that.  I don't know if I technically qualify as an atheist, because I do have a sneaking feeling something happens when you die.  I suspect we have souls that go somewhere, or maybe that's just wishful thinking.  I don't know.  What I do know is I can't simply choose to have faith in something I don't feel and hasn't been proven to me.  I completely respect other people's faith in a deity, however.  Just because I don't have faith doesn't mean a god of some sort doesn't unequivocally exist.  And it certainly doesn't mean that people who believe are necessarily on the wrong path.

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                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  You don't believe in God, but think we have souls?

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Actually, I can understand that.  A part of us that grows, but does not die with the body does.  A pattern of energy perhaps, grown and developed in the brain tissue that then retains it's form when the brain dies.

                    Can't say as I agree with it, but it makes much more sense than a cruel ET from another universe that loves us as it condemns us to eternal fire.

                2. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
                  AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  @April, I agree with most of the things you said; Jesus was probably a normal person, who helped people, and may be he believed in God, or he might have never existed, and it was just a lie to control the masses.Who knows?

                  But no one likes to hear the truth; it’s LAME!! People want lies and fantasy.

                  I do believe we have souls; it's our identity. Without it we are just a bag of chemicals, which is possible, but not likely. I don't believe in heavens and hell, but I do believe that we are born again or in other words pass on to a new host. To think there is nothing after death is as stupid as believing in a heaven.

                  After all, what we are is a point of view, like in movies. After death, that point of view is no more, so it doesn't matter if the universe exists or not, for we cannot see it.

                  I don't believe in a God that our ancestors believed in. They had limited knowledge of science; all they believed in was may have been based on confusion.

                  Although we are much more advanced in science and technology, and we have more knowledge, most people still believe in the magical ancient stories that were told thousands of years ago. It's sad!

                  The saddest part is they don't think; they don't try to. They just believe what the so called people of God told them.
                  They have learned nothing from the past; Churches killed in the name of God; priests claimed to be the messengers of God, telling them to kill all those innocent people.
                  Will God tell you how to live your life? Will he punish you if you don't?
                  That's what they teach you as a kid, right?
                  It’s all about rules in religion; people do things in fear rather than devotion.
                  In Hinduism, we have castes to separate people; they believe in 330 million Gods. Their faith is so shallow, they find it hard to rely on a single God; often they will pray to more than one. They do what the priests tell them to; some people are not allowed to eat fish or meat, and not because of their belief, but because they are told to do so.
                  If there is a God, it must be the universe, and we are a part of it.
                  That explains astronomy too.
                  If God made us in his own image, who the hell designed him??

                  Believing that we are just a product of science is just as stupid; do you think we came out of nowhere? For evolution to happen, there has to be a start.

                  I am a spiritual atheist!

                  Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
                  - Albert Einstein

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    this is just great stuff. I shall ponder and work it through in my small brain.
                    You are a spiritual atheist. And that is way cool. But allow me to say if I may that you are a Spiritual Atheist.
                    Come on by for coffee any time.

                  2. Zelkiiro profile image85
                    Zelkiiroposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    "The universe isn't expanding because the Cosmological Constant is totally a thing." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

                    Just because he did give us special and general relativity doesn't mean the guy's immune from saying really stupid stuff. Assuming, of course, he even said what you claim he did.

                  3. April Garner profile image87
                    April Garnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Spiritual Atheist - I like that.  Amazing Thinker, I mostly agree with your viewpoint.  I know people throughout history have done atrocious things in the name of religion and have used it to instill fear and exercise control.  "Religion is the opiate of the masses. " - Karl Marx.  But I have also known intimately a few people who pray to a Christian god who are not hypocritical and are very moral people I admire. 
                    I believe (suspect or hypothesize might be a better word than believe) when we die, our souls join the universe in a manner that may or may not include consciousness.  And maybe we are reborn as well.  I have contemplated the option that we are no more than the biology and chemicals that make up our bodies.  With that perspective, though, there would be no free will. All of our choices would be dictated by hormones and serotonin and the like.  While I think those biological forces are powerful ones, I like to think there's something else in us as well.

                  4. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm still trying to find out how a spiritual atheist is defined, based on what you said here, it would be a person who doesn't specifically believe in any of the current religions, but does still hold a number of irrational beliefs that originated from those religions. Not really an atheist, though.

  3. bipolartist profile image81
    bipolartistposted 2 years ago

    Eric,

    I have been here 7 days and in 7 days I have seen only attempts at trolling from you, for the most part.

    Why does it matter to you the thought processes of an atheist? Why is it of any concern-unless you only want to spark controversy...which is fine, but let's call it what it is.

    As a non-atheist/ non-Christian, I have respect for any religion or lack thereof. I do not question why someone believes in a particular god, nor do I question why someone does not believe. Do you know why? Because it is none of my business. We are each afforded an opportunity to believe whatever we choose. Yes, we are also allowed to question whatever we choose, but it seems your questions are always mirrored images of a loaded gun pointed at the reader's face.

    Peace

    1. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hi there bipolarist.

      In seven days you have read my 380 plus hubs and yet there are no views on 100 of them. Look up the concept of troll. I have cut a wide swath here. I am entitled to voice my opine. How many featured hubs do you have? I would bet not one tenth of mine. I am at the current time one of the most prolific writers here. Attack the system not the participants.

      1. bipolartist profile image81
        bipolartistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Eric,
        I have not read any hub save the one about poop. That was your featured hub.
        Absolutely you may voice your opinion, but I am allowed the same respect. My opinion happens to be that you do your best to pull Jesus into every conversation, though not in a favoring light. It is a ploy used (in my opinion) to lure and bait.
        Since I have been here 8 days now, I feel comparing your 380 hubs to my 7 is a bit ridiculous, no?
        I have not attacked your writing nor have I mentioned a lack in "prolific writing," I have only suggested that you troll.

        The meaning of troll is to run a baited line through the water in hopes of catching a fish.

        The system has nothing to do with your commentary.

  4. Lowdown0 profile image84
    Lowdown0posted 2 years ago

    New Agers live in some fairy tale, everyone just get along, except they can't stand to get along with Christians.
    There is only one truth, so either your wrong, or the Holy Bible is. I'm going to say your wrong, and the Bible is right.

    Of course you can say peace all day, but really you mean shut up Christian, or else..
    You can hate Christians, we're just imperfect sheep, but the trouble you'll have is with Him who created you. He it is who has power to send you to everlasting punishment.
    You won't be able to say you didn't have a chance.
    So have fun with your insults, it's all you get -- is your selfish hate, just like your father Satan.

    1. psycheskinner profile image80
      psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You seem to have a beam in thine eye

  5. Lowdown0 profile image84
    Lowdown0posted 2 years ago

    I know it's hard to hear the truth, you can blame it on me, remember I'm just an imperfect sheep, but if it makes you feel better...

    1. psycheskinner profile image80
      psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The only one saying hateful things here is you.  I suggest you stop projecting negativity and cheer up, find a way to feel better about your fellow humans and yourself.  If faith helps you do that, that's great.

  6. Lowdown0 profile image84
    Lowdown0posted 2 years ago

    Hey, I love you...come to the Lord Jesus and be saved, and remember I do care about you and everyone here. I love you...

  7. SmartAndFun profile image92
    SmartAndFunposted 2 years ago

    GHAAAAH! What is this thread even doing here? Wasn't all this junk supposedly hidden away months ago? This thread should be on the other side of the tracks in the religion forum. Get it out of here, please.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      We don't want it over there either!

      We've already got quite enough drama.

      Isn't there a hole in the sandpit we can bury it in?

    2. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Melissa and Fun person. Have a great day. I am sorry you to are grumpy. Hopefully something will cheer you up!
      How about this: What is black and white and used to be red all over?

  8. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 2 years ago

    This thread is Eric's revenge for people being unkind to him yesterday.

    And those insufferable liberals at HP HQ will simply refuse to terminate it on the grounds of some dead piece of paper called the Bill of Whites. Whatever that is.

    Anyway, something interesting: which one is the imperfect sheep?

    http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/wp-content/uploads/Shaun-The-Sheep-6-1024x819.jpg

  9. LuisEGonzalez profile image82
    LuisEGonzalezposted 2 years ago

    Although not an atheist, I fully understand why some feel that there is no God. Perhaps it stems from a sense of frustration that emanates from all of the horrible things that go on in our world. Whatever the reason, I respect other's thinking and the way that they feel. I think that having respect for what others think, believe or choose not to believe is the underlying basis for a better world.......cool

    1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
      AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      That would have been perfect if people didn't do stupid things in blind faith (More like using God to justify their actions). Just saw on the news that a man sacrificed his neighbor (a women) for some ritual.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I am afraid that mental illness is everywhere. Nice to think if we could cure it. But we have to stop looking for others to blame for it. Like suicide bombers and the media wants us to believe it is religion. Come on -- it is serious mental illness being exploited by psychotics. Religion is just a veil.

    2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You can see here, Eric, the small samplings of responses that will make an atheist what they are. It is the reasoning of atheists to not only not want to be associated with people who think this way, but also to not want to become one of them, intolerant, self-righteous and completely oblivious to what they say about others because of their faith and lack of understanding.

      It is not to say atheists are anti-Christian or anti-Muslim, they are just anti-intolerant, anti-self-righteous and prefer not to have faith as they can see what faith does to people, how it makes them think and ultimately how it makes them behave towards others.

      Atheists can see clearly how faith causes people to project their own negative traits and lack of morals onto others, again oblivious to the fact that it isn't so much the horrible things going on the world as it is the faithful and the projection of those idiosyncrasies onto them.

      Atheists actually do want to live in a peaceful world where everyone gets along, but know only to well that won't happen if the faithful continue to harangue them and everyone else who doesn't share their faith.

  10. Vimural profile image86
    Vimuralposted 2 years ago

    Being an extremist is wrong. Extreme Muslim, extreme Atheist, extreme Christian.

    Is it possible that your Christ is someone else's Muhammad?

    1. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Extremism is wrong --- you can leave the rest off the equation.

  11. 61
    squeeknomoreposted 2 years ago

    The truth is that God will come to each person when that person wants God to come to him. Until then…
    Let God do it.
    And Jesus
    and the
    Bible.

    However, I believe it is perfectly fine to discuss the matter, as God is real to those who have felt his presence and have been guided by his invisible hand.

  12. Mark Lees profile image87
    Mark Leesposted 2 years ago

    The standard argument of theists...prove god doesn't exist.

    To which I answer...prove that the one eyed, one horned flying purple people eater doesn't exist?

    The onus is not to prove that something doesn't exist, it is entirely to prove that something does. Until it is proven god exists and wants us to follow a bunch of stupid and contradictory rules I am going to live my life the way I want to.

    1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
      AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      That's Freedom!

  13. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 2 years ago

    Eric 10 Everyone Else 0

    Eric has certainly learned how to work a crowd.

    1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
      AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Your vote does not matter!

    2. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Will please be kind. I am just a sinner like the rest of us. The fact that I am good at sinning just aggravates the situation.

      1. Will Apse profile image90
        Will Apseposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You are doing sterling work, Eric.

        Soon your pouch will be full of fish.

  14. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 2 years ago

    Eric 20 Everyone Else 0

  15. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 2 years ago

    Eric 30 Everyone Else 0

  16. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 2 years ago

    http://cdn.alphazone4.com/albums/userpics/10001/Gnome_Fishing_500.jpg

    Truly a fisher of men.

    Though that one does look like a fish.

  17. Lowdown0 profile image84
    Lowdown0posted 2 years ago

    Vanity blinds the minds to seeing the truth. To think your special version of reality is truth is vanity. Do as tho wilt is the new age mantra, where everyone thinks they are so unique, really your just like everyone else who thinks of themselves as the determining factor of truth. Truth is evolution takes more faith than believing in the Bible. To think something came from nothing is not logical.

    1. Mark Lees profile image87
      Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The theory of evolution doesn't suggest that something came from nothing. So that is flaw one in your wonderful argument.
      Flaw two is if god made everything, where did god come from? Nothing?
      Flaw three is supposing that neo-liberalism (do as tho wilt) is supported by athiests. In fact the majority of neo-liberals in the USA are Republican and they are Christians.
      Flaw four is scientific enquiry is objective- and if new evidence comes to light true scientists re-evaluate- it is not vanity blinding anybody.
      Flaw five is not recognising that we KNOW the history of how the myths of the Christian god developed comes from a multi-god faith practiced in northern Africa (I'll let you research yourself to find out which one).

      And the last thing here is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe in the same god but they don't agree how to worship the same god. Within each of those religions there are many arguments about the best way to worship him (there are around 41,000 versions of Christianity) So even assuming he exists (which is a huge assumption) there is no point worshipping him because statistically you are likely to be doing it wrong. Not a flaw in you argument but a flaw in the idea of worship.

    2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Evolution is fact, the Bible is fiction.

      Evolution does not say something came from nothing. You might want to read up on evolution before making false statements about it.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        One cannot read up on a personal relationship with God. I evolve everyday. I hope you are still learning and growing and evolving. Love is not fiction.

  18. aware profile image69
    awareposted 2 years ago

    so your household  hates a man you've never met, or talked with face to face. so you all pray nightly  for him  out of  your love and respect for him. lets pray for the guy we despise for no real reason?  Eric? you really  live that way?  love  nor hate is the four letter word im thinking of. Fake is what i see.

    1. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Eloquent yet not worthy of response except to say so. You want to talk about me rather than a good thought,
      Yes we do pray of those we do not care for.

  19. aware profile image69
    awareposted 2 years ago

    Eric i guess ill take your lead . and pray for you then.

    1. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Probably a good idea!

  20. Mark Lees profile image87
    Mark Leesposted 2 years ago

    Something that nobody has mentioned is the fact that even if there is a god (I don't believe there is) why would I worship him. I am sure tables exist and I don't worship them.

    1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
      AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It can be dated back to the ancient times, before all this started; people heard the stories of God, and his "powers." Obviously they would want to impress him, they just didn't know how, so they came up with their own ridiculous ways; human sacrifice, rituals, and all that stuff.
      Religion is a fake how to impress God manual.

      And it's also that as children they are threatened with scary stories of God punishing the people who don't obey him. It's mostly fear, I think!

      1. Mark Lees profile image87
        Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        The point I was making is that merely existing is no reason to worship. Mike Tyson is more powerful than me (physically, at least) but I wouldn't consider worshipping him.

        1. AMAZING THINKER profile image61
          AMAZING THINKERposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          By power I meant that they thought he was in "control!"
          I have explained this in my hub; Why do people believe in God - Faith and religion.

          1. Mark Lees profile image87
            Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            It started as fear of the unknown and was almost entirely related to weather cycles and food and developed from there It was an attempt to explain things they didn't understand.

            It is still much the same, but for the rationale mind there is now much less that we don't understand.

            I have read your hub but it doesn't explore the themes in depth or with any real insight and some of the things you say "we" don't know we do, or have enough evidence to strongly suggest the truth. But you are conflating organised religion with god when you discuss "control"- many religions have powerful creatures that represent chaos (for example the Wild Hunt in Celtic folklore), nature etc...

  21. Ericdierker profile image81
    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago

    This forum went from asking about Atheistic abilities to why people cannot prove religion.
    Certainly that has proved a portion of the nature of the forum. Atheists can only think one way. They operate in the empirical world only.
    They "believe" - "think" that the only way to know something is to have empirical proof of it.
    It is a black and white construct.
    Although we do see that some atheists can know something without "physical proof", if they remain atheist then they still do not know God.
    So probably we can conclude that cognitive atheists choose not to know God rather than being incapable of it. And that theists choose to know God though the are perfectly capable of logical critical thought. US presidents being a fine example of the latter.

    1. Mark Lees profile image87
      Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Why do you believe Presidents are capable of logical/critical thought? And why do you think they all believe? They say anything to get votes- by saying they don't believe they alienate vast numbers of voters.

      Rejection of god is simply because logic and empirical evidence suggest no one god exists. We know (as much as we can know anything from ancient history) the history of one god faiths going back to the days there was a pantheon of gods. The simple evolution of faith serves as a strong suggestion that one god faiths are flawed.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Or you can just be like me and believe that we are all gods because we have Love within us and God is Love.

        1. Mark Lees profile image87
          Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          If we are all gods then no need to worship or follow doctrine.
          Indeed, the suggestion we are all gods denies the need for an external god and is essentially atheism.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Well make no mistake you are talking about religion and I am talking about God.

            1. Mark Lees profile image87
              Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You have your own definition of god, and I use the lower case quite deliberately, which means there is no difference whether you believe or not because if everybody is god they are free to live how they want and if nobody is god they are free to live how they choose. The entire debate is null.

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          God is a chemical reaction of the brain similar to the withdrawal of addiction?

          That's a new one.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Rad Man you must be great at love. All you have to do is add some chemicals to the body to get the right reaction in your brain and poof da you love. Take them away or add different chemicals and poof da you hate!

            Did it ever occur to you that our body makes those chemicals by itself in reaction to stimuli? And in fact psychotics cannot produce those chemicals but others can simply by trying?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, a recent study has showed that a break up produces that same chemical reaction that a drug addict goes through when they are in withdrawal.

              You do realize you admitted that love is something the brian does and not something God does right?

              This might be one of those times you are turning of your intellect in an effort to find a God where none exists.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Dang it --- I was mocking you! I guess I was so PC to have lost that idea on you.

  22. Mark Lees profile image87
    Mark Leesposted 2 years ago

    I can explain your "telepathy"- your ears still work when you are asleep. You caught snatches of the conversation and filled in the rest.

    Many people claim to have experienced the supernatural and many people have delusional episodes. It would be nce is the supernatural exists but if it cannot be proven then it cannot have an effect on our physical universe and it is a moot point whether it exists or not. It is can have an effect then it can be proved.

    And there is a clear history through Islam, Christianity and Judaism which goes back to the "heathen" gods of ancient Egypt. The simple fact that Moses is in all three faiths and that Muslims recognise Jesus as a prophet clearly demonstrate the links. There are many more links (not least of all Abraham).

    All preach there is only one god and share a common history so either they share a god or there are multiple gods who are each denying each others existence.

    Denying the rational world and blindly following Jesus is not an act of faith it is an act of stupidity. Live in the rationale world and worship Jesus by all means, but to ignore the realities around you is to invite all kinds of disaster.

    1. Claire Evans profile image89
      Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The conversation was downstairs and my aunt and mother will speaking in normal voices.  I was sleeping upstairs.  I wear ear plugs also.

      When I was studying sound engineering I had an episode where I dreamt the night before that we were in the studio playing this certain song.  When I got there after waking up that same song was playing. 



      What do you mean if it cannot be proven that it cannot have an effect on our universe? A lot of things were unproven and they did exist.  Take radiation for example.  No one knew it existed until 100 years ago.  That doesn't mean it didn't exist until it was discovered.   Who's to say that the supernatural will not be scientific later on? Science just doesn't understand it. 



      Jesus broke the mold.  I don't see that He is derived from heathen gods of Ancient Egypt. Yes, Jews and Muslims don't realize they have been deceived by Satan.  Allah is a moon god.  In the occult, that is Satan.  In the OT, the literal translation says that God is actually extra-terrestrials.



      I don't follow Jesus and am not sure He exists.  THAT would be stupid.  I know Him and that is why I follow Him.  It's pretty presumptuous of you to think I ignore the realities around me.

      1. Mark Lees profile image87
        Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You would be surprised at how sound travels and we can feel the vibrations through the floor and through our skin- it doesn't have to be through airwaves that enter through the ear canal.

        Jews were duped yet Jesus was born a Jew? The old testament is entirely jewish, meaning half the bible is actually satanic? The history tracing the islamic god and the christian god through the jewish god (Moses) is pretty clear, and while there is little physical evidence left it is possible to trace Moses back to an Egyptian court which forsake all of the other Egyptian gods in favour of just worshpping Atun. The followers of that court were all exiled to the desert when the traditional Egytpian faiths regained control. Sound familiar?

        Occultism is drawn from a lot of different ancient religions, with the name Satan probably coming from the Babylonian language- much predating Christianity but adopted by Christians hundreds of years after Jesus died.
        The idea of the moon god being evil is not universal- although I suspect you are referring to the Mesopatamian goddess SIN- who later did become the embodiment of the semitic idea of evil.

        I said thatif it cannot be proven it cannot affect our universe in response to the statement that supernatural means we cannot understand or interact with it. Radiation can be proven and always could, we just did not have the technology- but if supernatural beings like god cannot be understood or interacted with then we cannot prove them and they will have no bearing on the universe- if they have an effect then at some pont we will gain the ability to understand it as science advances.

        The final statement about ignoring reality was aimed at a comment, I can't remember by who, who suggested that blind faith is a good thing. Blind faith means ignoring evidence and just believing. These threads have become convoluted and therefore it is difficult to find the original posts.

        1. Claire Evans profile image89
          Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          You cannot be serious??? You know this is nonsense.  Then I will dream of everybody's conversation.




          Jesus came to witness to the truth and most did not know it.  They were idolaters.  They worshiped pagan gods like Molech.  Moses was a serpent worshiper which is Satanism.  I agree with you about the Moses part.





          Other pagans wouldn't think moon gods are evil but it is so. 






          There is evidence of the supernatural but scientists don't touch upon that subject.  Paranormal investigators have proof.  I know I have seen it with my own eyes.  Where did the concept of the supernatural come from in the first place?



          I most certainly do not agree with blind faith.  That's a waste of time.

          1. Mark Lees profile image87
            Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The laws of physics are not nonsense. Nor are the biological facts that sound can be felt. Ignoring science because it is inconvenient to your beliefs is nonsense.

            Moses was a sun god worshipper- the Egyptian god that he most likely worshipped was Atum- associated with the evening sun.  Moses was instructed by god to make a snake idol to cure snake bites but the instruction came from the ONE god.

            You are saying that we shold accept your supernatural beliefs but then stating that pagans who worship the moon are evil - that is the worst kind of hypocrisy. Your beliefs are no more valid than theirs.

            Jesus came to tell the truth - so all the words of god before the new testament are the lies of Satan. So now you are going against most of christianity as well. I wonder where you divine understanding comes from, that so many have been duped where you see so clearly.

            The civilisations associated with the worship of Moloch all collapsed around 500bc, half a millenium before Jesus. Jewish people, the people that Jesus was preaching too, were already one god worshippers and not pagans.

            Supernatural ideas originated to explain things that we didn't understand, but now we understand these things much better. The "evidence" for the supernatural comes in the form of personal accounts and obscure images, or in readings which cannot be fully explained. Yet they can be explained by equipment failure or be rare atmospheric conditons etc... The is no substantial proof of anything supernatural, but as I have said before if these things exist we will attain the technology to understand them fully in time and they will then become part of the natural.

            1. Claire Evans profile image89
              Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Any other explanation but telepathy, hey? Can't even consider that.  Tell me, if I went to sleep this evening and people were talking would I dream about what they saying? Everyone knows sound can be felt.  Words uttered are frequencies.  That doesn't mean we can interpret frequencies as words by not hearing it. 




              Yes, it probably was that Egyptian God.  In fact, that god was most likely and extra terrestrial.




              I didn't say all pagans believed moon gods are evil but that doesn't detract from the fact that it is Satan. 

              http://s2.hubimg.com/u/8654457.jpg

              That is a Knight's Templar moon god figure.  As you know, that is Satan in Satanism. If we are to believe that that the three Abrahamic religions are referring to the same God, then would the Father of Jesus be a moon god?




              I didn't say all of the Old Testament was wrong.  Just most of it that at least what I have read.  It's not divine understanding.  It's just logic.  Who can Jesus be contradictory to the actions of God in the Old Testament if they are one? Was Jesus one with extra-terrestrials? The gods were actually E.Ts. Christians must do research.  Most prefer not to.  They like to package Christianity in the way they want to. 




              Yes, by that time those gods were merged into one like Allah.  How can we take seriously Moses being a monotheist when he worshiped pagan gods?  Yes, those in Jesus' time believed in one god because the Bible told them so.  To this day we think that God in the OT is just one when it fact it is many. 

              1. Zelkiiro profile image85
                Zelkiiroposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Sounds like someone's been watching Ancient Aliens.

                Too bad a little bit of research (or a metric ton of it) shows that the Ancient Astronaut theory has a huge amount of holes, misinterpretations, and outright lies.

                1. Claire Evans profile image89
                  Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  http://s2.hubimg.com/u/8654513.jpg

              2. Mark Lees profile image87
                Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                How do you think sound is heard? The vibrations on bones in your ear are interpreted by your brain. The vibrations don't have to go through your eardrums. There are numberous examples of composers who are deaf being able to hear and write music because they feel the vibrations.

                I am happy to consider telepathy when there is solid evidence but no real experiment has been able to indicate that telepathy is possible and there is a very real scientifically valid explanation for what you experienced, so I would rather go for that option.

                Satan has many forms in christian writing and it is intersting that they are all from rival religions that christians were trying to discredit.

                Moses worshipped one god in a way that he was told to, not many. That is pretty clear in the bible, the holy book of christians. And it is also clear that the Abrahamaic faiths all share one god because they all share the same initial prophet- that is why they are called the Abrahamaic faiths.

                I find it interesting that you feel you can pick and choose which parts of the holy texts are valid and which are not- if there is an omnipotent god then they are all valid, if there isn't then none of it is valid.

                1. Claire Evans profile image89
                  Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, composers pick up frequencies from sound but they cannot interpret it as words.  Where is your proof that this is true? Then all deaf people should "hear" what other people are saying then.



                  Science is not really interested in that subject.  However, are you aware that the there is a Defence Intelligence Agency Psychic Center and that the NSA (National Security Agency) studies parapsychology regards to psychics, ESP and telepathy?

                  http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/visio … ota_9a.htm




                  Like what rival religions?



                  That is not true.  Consider this verse:

                  2 Kings 18:4

                  "He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)"

                  So Moses was a serpent worshiper.  How could he worship a serpent (Satan) and God??  So which God was it?



                  It is not all or nothing.  As I said, what contradicts Jesus cannot be true.  God works through people but they are not infallible.  Therefore an infallible Bible could never be written.  Then there are just those occultists that contributed to the OT like the Levites.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Are you aware Operation Stargate was shut down in 1995 for this reason:

                    "The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists."

      2. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I am reminded of Doubting Thomas. The notion was not that he was bad because he could not believe without touching and it was accepted that he was that way. No one thinks the less of him. (metaphor or reality who cares?) The notion was that others are blessed that they see and know without touching. I love Thomas and gave that as a middle name to my eldest son. For we must question and I want him to always remember that.

        1. Claire Evans profile image89
          Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I think we can all identify with Thomas.

  23. Ericdierker profile image81
    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago

    This forum clearly asked about atheist and their position. But as we can see the vocal atheist only uses an argument against faith and not a justification of their position in general. Here it is very clear that though they cannot have faith they refuse to admit that fact.
    It is befuddling that one can argue against blind faith and say it is stupid and irrational and only and idiot can have it and that they do not --- but not admit that they cannot have it while others can.
    It is a straight forward fact that atheists cannot have blind faith but they also cannot admit that.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I don't have a blind faith. I need to see evidence as should you,

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Rad Man I applaud you!
        As for me, sometimes I am just too damned stupid to understand the evidence so I just trust.
        Doc the other day told me I was dying. I trusted him. I gasped. He laughed and said God has a sense of humor your are dying in about 40 years.

    2. psycheskinner profile image80
      psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You seem very willing to stereotype all atheists in a derogatory manner.  So I don;t see how you can complain that the same is down to you.

    3. Mark Lees profile image87
      Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I am agnostic- I am happy to believe in any gods when sufficient evidence is presented.

      You also said that atheists are not capable of faith- something that was successfully argued not to be the case. Everybody engages in acts of faith every single day. Not blind faith but informed faith.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Right on the money Mark. I always love a Bible thumper who says thou shall not judge!!  Well I sure hope they do not drive and have to judge the speed and distance of 80 mph cars.

        Is the act of engaging in acts of faith -- the same as believing?
        (but remember you are agnostic - not atheist)

    4. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It's not that an atheist cannot have blind faith, they can, just like a believer can use his brains to think if he wants. It's just that the atheist does not choose to use blind faith to rule their worldviews.

      They hypocrisy about the whole thing is that believers also don't just accept everything on blind faith, they too demand evidence sometimes, but instead choose to accept the things they want to believe on blind faith.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Your logic is faulty you just made the words conform. Not being able to choose to do something is our English equivalent to "Can't".

        You cannot exercise blind faith -- it is not in you --- just admit it and it helps the discussion.

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          The logic is not faulty, both blind faith and thinking are common amongst all humans.



          I have no problem exercising blind faith, none whatsoever. It is in all of us.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you. What do you have blind faith in?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              A more important question would be why do you think blind faith is necessary and valuable? Seems to me it just makes people gullible.

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Not much, I don't find blind faith useful.

  24. bBerean profile image59
    bBereanposted 2 years ago

    Perhaps the issue is that Atheists don't have a song.  At last now they do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU   
    "Atheists Don't Have No Songs"

    1. Zelkiiro profile image85
      Zelkiiroposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Incorrect. Atheist has quite a few songs.

      1. bBerean profile image59
        bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I stand corrected.  Who knew?  wink

    2. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I think Osborn has one -- What if God was one of us? Just a slob like Eric.
      One of my favorites but do not tell my Christian friends.
      <iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3_PawcvFrMQ?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  25. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago

    Blind faith in my dog, my mother, gravity, expecting the sun to rise tomorrow.  No problem.

    1. Ericdierker profile image81
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry you had me going with mom and doggie. But "expecting the sun to rise has no logic" Because something has happened a billion times is no proof to believe it will happen again. Just like God.
      Your experience is not proof of a future event.
      So why do you not have "blind faith" in God. The dog and the mom you have physical evidentiary proof of, so it is not what we mean by blind.

  26. Mark Lees profile image87
    Mark Leesposted 2 years ago

    It depends why they are deaf as to what extent people can hear, and when you are asleep or semi-conscious your brain is doing a lot less and can interpret things much easier.

    Like Islam and Judaism (not to mention the near infinite versions of Christianity).

    I know the CIA, NSA and KGB not to mention many others studies all sorts of mental powers and managed to find nothing supporting them - the few cases which they thought might be genuine were debunked in the long run. So vast resources have been thrown at investigating some of the areas but still no evidence has been provided.

    Yes, the Jews originally came from Egypt so they would worship Egyptian gods until your god told them not to at Mt Sinai. Nothing really surprising there, what is surprising is that an omnipotent god would not take steps to ensure that his words were not misinterpreted - he would only have to pop in another vision.

    Like I said before the Christian god is the Jewish god and most likely came from the Egyptian god Atun. As did Allah. Nothing can change that. Even most Christians accept the old testament, but you are rejecting all of it. Yet Jesus is not god, he is the son of god and he accepted the old testament god.

    And I should warn you that calling Jewish people Satanistsis anti-Semitic.

    1. Claire Evans profile image89
      Claire Evansposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Then why don't I dream about everything anyone says in my sleep? I'm not going to discuss this further  You are adamant not to entertain the idea of telepathy


                       
      So why is there still that centre?



      It's because corrupt human beings manipulated the Old Testament.



      Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit.  He assumed the role of the son on earth.  How did He accept the Old Testament God?



         I never claimed they were Satanists.  Satanists worship the devil knowing who He is.  Being deceived by Satan by believing lies is not Satanic.

      1. Mark Lees profile image87
        Mark Leesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I am happy to entertain the idea of telepathy when there is evidence to support it which is not more likely to be explained away by the laws of physics.

        The centre does not still exist.

        Corrupt human beings manipulated the old testament but Jesus is a lovely bloke? And we know he accepted the old testament because it is still in his holy book- he and his disciples would have discarded it when writing the new testament. That and the fact that Jesus would have been Jewish, in fact he was a descendant of King David, is also a strong hint that he accepted the Jewish preaching's.

        Your version of god must really be disappointing if you think he lets almost the entire world worship his arch rival in his name.

 
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