I once heard a quote, which I really like.
"You can lead an atheist to the truth, but you can't make him/her believe".
Christianity has always been a matter of the heart, and not the intellect, though, falsely ascribed, being devoid of it. To qualify that statement, one can have an intellectual argument either for or against, but the true conversion, (or lack of) will be determined at the deepest level of the persons being.
Here's one (ex)atheist share her journey.
That was a really good video and I am happy for that woman.
Yes, there is a lot of hope for atheists, especially when these kind of dishonest videos are presented out of desperation. I don't buy her story at all.
That video is pure Garbage! This lady chose to embrace ignorance, and pretends that she used reason to do so. That is called willful ignorance....which is totally dishonest. From a logical perspective, her conclusion could not have been based on reason. There was an emotive component driving this decision, hence the conclusion was reached first, then she gathered "evidence" the "support" her conclusion.
That of course is your opinion. Beauty (or otherwise) is in the eye of the beholder.
She chose to embrace an answer to a need in her life. The results she gained support her decision.
Perhaps you ought to be true to yourself, instead of your own delusions. That's being honest.
Why?She "reasoned" that her atheistic creeds and values were lacking real life application.
Of course there was an emotive component. We all have emotions! You have clearly demonstrated emotion, as evidenced by your many comments. Probably anger is at the top of the list.
She, as a mother had to face those emotions.
Reason and logic are not excluded by emotion within the human experience.
A robot, or a computer may make decisions based on logic and reason, but it (they) could not raise a child, with the emotion required to do the task.
Did she? I never saw that. These former atheist conversion stories are usually bogus, created by believers in order to somehow discredit atheism when in fact they are nothing but a pack of lies. She was no more an atheist than she was a pink elephant. She stumbles when talking about evolution, referring to it as random events, which it isn't at all, but that's the flawed understanding believers have.
Being an atheist is not like a being a believer where any particular flavor du jour is gobbled up. Atheism is about thinking and understanding, reasoning and rationalizing why there are no gods. To just toss that away and decide Christianity makes so much sense is utterly ridiculous, it is well beyond reason, that person would have had to have lost their mind completely, perhaps with a pre-frontal lobotomy.
Don't be so dramatic!
I mean, we're not ALL delusional and dumb...lol
IMO, the biggest problem when discussing a person's conversion is trying to make it logical and rational to the person who is not a believer.
Believers, there really IS a huge element of irrationality in our faith. You can deny it till the cows come home, but it's the truth. No amount of "reason" or "logic" can make it any less a fact. Especially if we believe that our faith is evidence of a love relationship with the Creator. When is love EVER logical or rational?
The answer to that is simple, when love is misplaced, of course.
It's not irrational or illogical to love people, we do that all the time, especially if we have families and friends or someone new we meet. It usually occurs with real, live people.
But, what you're saying is "a love relationship with the Creator" which is obviously irrational and illogical considering that the love is based entirely on some words in an ancient book written by men. That love is clearly misplaced.
Oh sure, you can claim those words were inspired by God, but when you actually look at them without being doe-eyed, they are words written be the men of that time, ignorant and mired in myth. Many religious scholars understand that. To claim they are God's inspired word is obviously dishonest as there is no way anyone can make that claim without having direct knowledge.
Many believers are not dumb or deluded except when it comes to their religious beliefs, then all forms of reason and rational are tossed out the window and they become brain dead. No offense.
I'm not remotely offended.
And I agree that love for an unseen, unproven God is indeed irrational. I don't think it's misplaced though. I have no issues with feeling psychologically disordered and I don't experience any cognitive dissonance about it. If that happens, I'll reevaluate, promise. Till then, it's been the biggest influence over how I interact with people, and since I genuinely love and enjoy those interactions, I can't deny that it (my irrational faith) has its merits.
While I'm sure the facade you've created for yourself appears that way on the inside, it certainly doesn't appear that way from the outside. And, that may be perfectly acceptable for want to live in a bubble.
And no, it's plain to see that your faith is not your biggest influence over how you interact with people, quite the contrary, in fact. It is when you become reasonable and rationale do you then begin to actually interact, the rest is just fluff.
Are you saying I'm psychologically disordered and don't know it?
That's okay. I'm pretty harmless at the end of the day, so I'll just keep an eye on it.
Not really. I'm just saying that with all else in your life, you probably act and do everything normal like anyone else. But, when your religion comes to light, all that gets tossed out. There are a number of explanations for this phenomenon, but I'm sure you've heard them all by now.
Umm, to a point, you are absolutely right. I'm not really any different from your average Jane.
I love my husband, my daughter, and my dogs, and work, do laundry, and buy groceries like everyone else.
I don't find a need to delineate between my "real" life and my "faith" life. It's just my life. Same in the daylight as in the dark and the same behind closed doors as in the middle of the street.
Our love for family/friends is still "illogical" in a sense. Sometimes it would be much smarter to kill your (insert family member here) for whatever benefit it would provide you (for survival), but you don't. Love is in its nature irrational whether it's with real, live people, or "gods." As a matter of fact, even though I'm non-religious myself, I believe that religion is a majorly important tool for our survival. A necessary one? Not necessarily. Not with all the superficial crap. But the unity between us is something that helps us survive because we humans naturally seem to do poorly on our own.
While I agree that it is misplaced, you're wrong about it being solely towards the words in a book. It is an idea. A longing for something larger than yourself, certainly formulated and influenced by words in a book, but extending so far beyond that. There is this nearly unexplainable experience for feeling completely flooded with love (however delusional it may be). But it's based on more than the book, as the words and ideas in it wouldn't come alive without the people.
People believe they have direct knowledge.
Same with love of any kind. How often does this describe a girl that was goo-goo over a guy or vice-versa. Same premise, and definitely human nature.
Normally, I would respond to your entire post, but I think you need some serious help.
You may feel that way, but love isn't logical. I'm not saying I would kill anyone in my family or my circle of friends. I'm not homicidal... I am saying, however, that love isn't logical. It helps us to survive, but there's a reason that sociopaths tend to be CEOs (or rather CEOs tend to be sociopaths...) Not everything that is natural or helps us to survive collectively is logical. For example... religion.
Let me give you an example. I am in debt because of my mother. I am her beneficiary on her life insurance. I LOVE my mother, I would NEVER harm her. But, logically, to get out my debt easily and efficiently, I could take her out and become debt free. Easily, quickly, and efficiently (if I could manage to not get caught). Would I ever do that? HELL NO, because I love her and even if it was someone I don't know, I wouldn't do it because I value life. Do you get the point?
Sorry, but I think you're talking about two different things there, which really doesn't show love is illogical.
Ok, I'll go a different route, then.
What makes something logical? If we're not even using the word the same way, how can we understand each other.
One way that logic is defined is as "sensible argument and thought: sensible rational thought and argument rather than ideas that are influenced by emotion or whim." Love itself isn't self-existing as it's only a concept, and a concept typically driven by emotion. At least, if we are using the same "love" (again, definitions are important).
Do you think that if you had no emotional attachment to your parents, family, or significant other that you would be able to love them? If you make decisions solely based on those emotional attachments, are they logical? It's one thing to make a decision based on previous outcomes, but if you're solely making a decision based on how you feel for someone and that you care for them, is that logic?
Now love is extremely important for continuing our species. It is adaptive. It makes copulation easier, makes having to provide for other family members easier, and just makes social interaction in general easier. But is it logical? Not everything that is adaptive is logical. Again for example, religion.
I see your confusion now, you seem to believe that something emotional like love cannot be logical. You just said love is extremely important for continuing our species. Is that not a logical conclusion?
It's a logical conclusion but that doesn't mean love itself is logical. Religion has also been an important and integral part of continuing our species (look at our history and the prevalence of it globally). Do you then conclude that religion is logical? Or simply another mechanism that we have used to survive? I wouldn't say religion is necessary, but a sense of community and cooperation is which love and religion provide. But neither is in and of itself "logical."
Love is actually a real thing while gods are not. Religions were necessary as they were a stepping stone through our intellectual evolution.
How is love a "real" thing? Is it tangible? Can I measure it objectively? Could it exist if there was no being aware enough to describe it, whatever it is? I think this just comes down to our thinking of the word "logical" differently. If you think that something being an efficient means to a helpful end is logical, then I will accept that and say yes love is logical. But that's not necessarily how I'm defining it.
Yes, it can be measured, there are very obvious biochemical reactions in our bodies that occur, just like other emotions.
Oxytocin plays a role in bonding after mating, bonding after childbirth, trust, sexual behavior, and in the ability to form normal social attachments. Vasopressin, involved also in social interactions, has sparked recent interest involving its role in sexual interactions. This chemical, which is released into the brain during sexual activity, is now thought to initiate and sustain the pattern of activity that supports the pair bond between sexual partners. Dopamine is often associated with the pleasure part of the brain, providing feelings of enjoyment, which encourages a person to perform an activity proactively. Lastly here, serotonergic signaling is thought of as having an effect on body temperature, mood, sleep, vomiting, sexuality, and appetite. All of these chemicals together are thought to play a large role involving love in the brain.
You said it yourself, "Now love is extremely important for continuing our species. "
No. I'm sure this is garbage.
What ANSWER! That was nothing but psychotic nonsense.
Get real. I don't, BLINDLY, follow what others tell me to believe...based on the psychotic rambling of Bronze Age ignoramuses, yet you say it is me who needs to be true to myself. Please elaborate....
Regardless! There is never a reason to accept myths, fairy tales, and folklore as reality. That's not reasoning, that's a serious disconnect from reality.
So what? We are not talking about me. We are talking about some dishonest video, of some delusional nonsense, that you're trying to promote as a reasonable conversion. This is garbage.
But in the end, reason must prevail. And in this video, willful ignorance is what shaped this woman's decision.
That's why robots don't raise children. What's your point?
I think the point about the anger is important, Getitrite, because you do come across as being quite angry in your posts. I think the point he's making is that it is common for people to make decisions based on emotion because we all experience emotion. You speak on this forum with a voice guided by anger, your choice. This woman for whatever emotional reason decided to become a Christian- her choice. We often do things based off of emotion.
Assertions made, based on personal biases and prejudice!
That's both logical, reasonable and open minded of you.
NO Assumptions, aye?
Wilful ignorance? I doubt it.
Atheists are way more prone to that mental disability. Sorry.
Oh, and ALL conversions from atheism to Christianity are fake, right?
OK, I got it.
Oh, the one that favours your POV. Sure.
There is only "hope" for the athiest that is inclined to think that this "hope" you specifically refer to is necessary or exclusive to Christianity. For me, "hope" exists in a very different way. So I don't particularly need to search for yours; although there are some Christian precepts I like, I disagree with most.
As far as the video is concerned, I haven't watched it. But judging by the comments others made, I'll only say a few things on it.
-One, I'm certain the person in the video is being honest to the best of their ability at this stage in their life.
-I won't say it's unlikely they were ever atheist because people ignorantly assume that I was never a Christian because I'm no longer a Christian. There are just certain things outsiders looking in won't ever understand.
I'll watch it tomorrow as I'm going to sleep, soon; then I'll comment further.
I may be wrong but by hope I think aka-dj really is not talking about atheists converting to any religion but talking of the Hope of Eternal Life and Salvation, that is the hope for all mankind, not just atheists because until anyone comes to Christ they are dead in their sins and trespasses and condemned to an eternal hell. This is beyond religion which is man reaching up to God. Christianity is God reaching down to (a fallen) mankind. No religion compares to Christianity and Christianity should not be brought down to the level of religion. Semantics aside the hope we speak of is for eternal life which cannot be obtained without salvation. The Bible makes it clear:
Proverbs 24:20 for the evil man has no future; the lamp of the wicked will be put out.
Proverbs 24:14 Know that wisdom is such to your soul; if you find it, there will be a future, and your hope will not be cut off.
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
This is the tip of the iceberg that the Bible has to say about "Hope" Here is more. http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com … z2s4y1zWcA
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Speak for yourself; no one in their right mind would wish for eternal life. While it is certainly true that we would mostly like a longer lifespan (if healthy) there could be no greater curse than to live forever.
But wilderness, you see you again apply your limited concept of the universe, limited to the natural only, which is not the truth - so you imagine eternal life being just an extension of how life is here and now in the natural world. The Bible gives us a glimpse of what eternal life will be like, the natural world will be recreated as it was before the fall, before sin corrupted it and there will be no tears, no evil, no death. You can't conceive of this if you are stuck on natural. So you, as most atheists assert we are not in our "right mind", an obvious and you know untrue statement but you feel you must insult anyone who disagrees with you when the truth is from a spiritual viewpoint no one in their right mind would believe that we are nothing but the result of random chemical reactions over billions of years and that there is no creator. It takes more faith to believe that than to believe that an omniscient omnipotent holy God outside of his creation created the universe with reason and purpose, created mankind for his pleasure and not forsaking us when we transgressed from holy into sin provided us his word by which to live and understand life and his perfect son to take the punishment for our sins because he is a just God. Our salvation is a free gift. You can not earn it but all you have to do is understand you are a sinner and repent from your sin, accept what Jesus did to pay for your sins (a substitution for your punishment) and God will make you his child, save you from eternal torment, thus salvation. You really should investigate what is the truth and accept that you are the one believing a lie, there is a supernatural world that includes the natural and that is true reality.
No, what we see is your limited willingness to reason AND accept the conclusions of that reason. You have obviously refused/failed to consider what eternal life would entail and how you would entertain yourself after a few million years, let alone billions, trillions and quadrillions of trillions of billions.
Absolutely, it is easier to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent invisible creature from another dimension making ours than it is to extrapolate the known and observed chemical and physical actions taking place all around us. It does, after all, give rise to that eternal life if we but extend the imagination just a bit further and conclude that said creature loves and cares for a handful of us, most obviously including the believer. That does make it all easier, doesn't it? Even though thousands of years of searching has never found the creature or any activity the could reasonably claim was caused by it.
Suggest you need to go back to at least high school if that's what you think current thinking is.
Current thinking? What the hell is current thinking? You mean your thinking because currently there is no consensus in the real world and I don't know what would make you think there is unless you are brainwashed to believe that. I suggest you investigate the book and the "religion" you despise because you actually know nothing about it - I have investigated your "world" view thoroughly and found it extremely lacking and unscientific. I have a BA in Biology and and BS in Biology, I taught biology and used to believe in evolution because in the curriculum I was in it gave me no choice. It wasn't until I graduated and worked in the real world that I discovered just how unscientific the scientific community can be. But that's fine, go on pretending you have all the answers, it doesn't matter from your point of view anyway because you believe when you die it will be as if you never existed - you will cease to exist and so will I. From your point of view there is no purpose to life at all and when the planet dies from global warming it won't matter anyway - we're just a bunch of chemical reactions walking around until the chemistry runs it's course and then what? - you are nothing more than the rocks and dirt you walk upon. Current thinking was once that the earth was flat - there is no absolute value to what you call current thinking, a poor and I might add uneducated defense.
I find that hard to believe considering the scientific community has shown itself to be anything but unscientific. You can observe any lab, archeological dig, particle accelerator, museum, observatory, clinic and see nothing but science being conducted.
Wherever you may have studied and worked certainly doesn't fit with what's happening in science.
You say you once "believed" in evolution. If you had a degree in biology, you should thoroughly understand evolution, most likely you had to write papers on the subject and relate it every aspect of your research. Are you saying you accepted evolution as fact but now you call it a lie? What reasons do you have to reject it now?
I never accepted it as fact, I said I believed in it...as a theory which when I was in school is what it was - to me it was and still is only a theory and actually I know now it is not even worthy of being considered more than an hypothesis however I had professors who treated it as fact even though they called it a theory. When you are getting a degree in science you learn early not to rock the boat but give the answers they want so that you get the grade. Throughout my education from high school through college there was never opportunity to debate evolution, it was a given and I must admit I was indoctrinated into accepting it as were some of my friends who are today accomplished scientists and educators who do not accept evolution as fact. In fact any scientist worth his salt could never accept it as fact.
Yes I studied and I know all about evolution and much has changed since the late 60s when I was in college. I reject it simply because in the light of what we know now about how infinitely complicated and engineered even the simplest forms of life are there are insurmountable mathematical probabilities it requires to occur, the misrepresentations and lies so called "scientists" have propagated to perpetuate the lie, the fact that the whole basis of some evolutionary theory requires millions of years to occur making it unobservable and therefore unprovable, the fact that it is not a scientific theory but the theory existed before science was ever practiced. If you watch Frank Turek's videos or read his book you quickly realize that it takes far more faith to believe in evolution as fact than an intelligent creator of the universe and anyone who puts forth the idea that only stupid uninformed people could not believe in evolution is himself uninformed or uneducated about the science, has never approached evolution with a critical mind because he has basically been brainwashed by a system that requires any science to be limited to the natural and therefore excludes the possibility of the supernatural which is one of the domains of the creator. If you by practice exclude any possibility or believe any explanation beyond the natural is tabu you are not practicing science. You have established preconceived results from the start and that is not science. Be honest brain dead man, you have never watched the video "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" through have you. You haven't investigated the myriad presentations of scientists refuting evolution, have you...in short you have been duped because you have bought into a philosophy that agrees with your preconceived notions or you have given too much credence to a 'scientific" community which if you investigated honestly you would find has an agenda which is not scientific. Of course you could just be of the gmwilliams ilk, who revels in infantile digs because she really has nothing of intelligence to contribute to this discussion. But that's not you, is it.
Evolution is a scientific fact and most educated people accept it as such. Evolution has been authenticated so many times. One cannot dispute and/or deny that evolution occurred. Why do YOU deny the factual bases of evolution?
Religion is a manmade construct. It was constructed by primitive humans who were unable to adequately explain events and occurrences. What primitive humans could not understand, they instituted religions to help understand events and situations. Each society has its mythologies and holy books. The bible is no different from any other so called holy book. The bible was written by humans period.
Educated people nowadays view religion as mere superstition with no bases in fact. In fact, the more educated and/or intelligent a person is, the less religious he/she is. Religion is based upon mythologies. It is further based upon fear and control. Religion is the opiate of the masses and is used to control them.
Atheists for the most part, who are highly intelligent, see religion as superstition and myth which are totally irrevelant in this postmodern society. Atheists refuse to be saddled with outmoded philosophies which have no place in postmodern society. Many events can be explained scientifically. Atheists see things intelligently and logically.
Religions are simply outmoded in the 21st century. Most people in advanced societies, especially in Europe, have no religious beliefs. America is one of those advanced countries who STILL believe in religion. There was a study done which indicated that over 80% of Americans are religiously affiliated. In America, 70% still believe in the devil and hell. Totally implausible to say the least!
All lies you don't know anything about which you speak. You should stick with smiley faces.
Religion is used by authorities to CONTROL people. It is also used to generate fear into people. Religious authorities know and use this. The premise of religion is to either believe in the particular premise or GO TO HELL. Religion stresses one narrow belief system with its inane rules and regulations.
Intelligent and educated people see beyond religion; they know that religion is a farce. Religion is a means of gaining power over people. You know this but you refuse to accept the fallacy which is called religion. It is so sad that people cling to religion although its innate toxicity has been proven ad infinitum.
People sadly rely on antediluvean religious explanations when scientific explanations suffice. Religion is the reason why American is not as scientifically adept as other countries are. Creationism is taught in some schools instead of evolution. Religion is also the reason why there is not a thoroughly comprehensive sex education program in American schools which also accounts for the reason America leads in industrialized nations in teenage pregnancies. Religion is also influential regarding the issues of abortion and contraception. Many religionists believe that there should be NO abortion, even in cases of rape, incest, and when the mother's life is threatened.
Religion is another reason why LBGT people are stigmatized and marginalized in this society. Many religious people view LBGT people as immoral instead of recognizing them as legitimate and deserving of respect. Religion as demonstrated is highly toxic to the progress and advancements of myriad aspects of society.
I get it. So your big gripe is religion, mainly because you don't believe in God and so resent anyone who does. You don't care about the truth of anything you say, if it is against God or religion you are all for it and incorporate it into your philosophy. That is no surprise and quite typical of the atheists I have known. It boggles the mind how someone could be so sold out to a belief or should I say lack of a belief (in God). Gee that sounds like a religious zealot, doesn't it? Amazing how similar atheists are to religious zealots. Well maybe I, your uneducated, backwoods caricature of Gomer Pyle can explain to you how atheism, well lets say evolution since it is the cornerstone of atheism,is a religion.
Let's see, well G-O-O-O-O-LLY, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, Sargeant Carter! LOOKIE HERE! Evolution is Religion -- Not Science G-O-O-O-O-LLY, GOLLY, SARGE listen to this...
In no way does the idea of particles-to-people evolution meet the long-accepted criteria of a scientific theory. There are no such evolutionary transitions that have ever been observed in the fossil record of the past; and the universal law of entropy seems to make it impossible on any significant scale. Evolutionists claim that evolution is a scientific fact, but they almost always lose scientific debates with creationist scientists. Accordingly, most evolutionists now decline opportunities for scientific debates, preferring instead to make unilateral attacks on creationists saying ' Scientists should refuse formal debates because they do more harm than good, but scientists still need to counter the creationist message." The question is, just why do they need to counter the creationist message? Why are they so adamantly committed to anti-creationism? The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion. Some may prefer to call it humanism, and "new age" evolutionists place it in the context of some form of pantheism, but they all amount to the same thing. Whether atheism or humanism (or even pantheism), the purpose is to eliminate a personal God from any active role in the origin of the universe and all its components, including man. Atheism, no less than theism, is a religion! Even doctrinaire-atheistic evolutionist Richard Dawkins admits that atheism cannot be proved to be true.
"Of course we can't prove that there isn't a God."
Therefore, they must believe it, and that makes it a religion.
The atheistic nature of evolution is not only admitted, but insisted upon by most of the leaders of evolutionary thought. Ernst Mayr, for example, says that:
Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations.
A professor in the Department of Biology at Kansas State University says:
Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such a hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic.
It is well known by almost everyone in the scientific world today that such influential evolutionists as Stephen Jay Gould and Edward Wilson of Harvard, Richard Dawkins of England, William Provine of Cornell, and numerous other evolutionary spokesmen are dogmatic atheists. Eminent scientific philosopher and ardent Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse has even acknowledged that evolution is their religion!
Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality . . . . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.
So in the final analysis atheists are nothing more than what YOU would call "Religionists".
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. It's better for your soul than whatever else it is you've been smoking.
As for authorities using religion to control people, what country do you live in? because it can't be the USA. And you wouldn't know what is science and what isn't if it bit you in the *** ...The rest of your rant is just that, an uneducated, belligerent rant - you make blanket assertions which you can not and, surprise! don't offer any substantiation for spewing hateful lies like "Religion as demonstrated is highly toxic to the progress and advancements of myriad aspects of society." not even cognizant that the institutions of higher learning, hospitals our free society in general wouldn't even have come into existence if it weren't for religion. Tell me, are you always this irrational or do you get this way just once a month?
Things you keep asserting have been addressed to you in forum threads like this one but instead of listening to what's said and reasoning it out you ignore most of what is said and just keep spouting the same rants and blanket assertions that are demonstrably wrong, but you totally ignore facts and just go on and on.
Studies have endlessly authenticated the correlation between religion and intelligence. The more educated and/or intelligent a person is, the less likely he/she will believe in religion(to put it more eloquently, organized religion). Religion is based upon blind, unquestioning adherence to dogmatic rules and laws. Religions emphasize that their particular premise is the only legitimate premise and all others are inherently wrong.
Religions, for the most part, divide humans. Many religions are misogynic e.g. why is there an issue of women's reproductive freedoms in terms of abortion and contraception. There is also a contention of many religions that the lifestyle of LBGT people are wrong, even immoral and sinful. Religion is the antithesis to progress and change. For example, when Margaret Sanger wanted to implement birth control to women, it was religious authorities who were vehemently against such practices. It was the thought by such religionists that any form of birth control was unnatural. However, Ms. Sanger and other proponents of birth control pushed for the need for women to have accessible birth control despite religious opposition.
For many decades until 1973 (Roe vs Wade), there were no legalized abortions because of religious authorities who believed that abortion was tantamount to murder. Even in some schools in America today, contraception is not widely taught as part of a comprehensive sex education program, it is ignored because "it is thought" that contraceptioni will lead to more license. Instead, abstinence-only sex education is taught in the school, oftentimes with deleterious results.
Religion is the issue behind the contention of same sex marriages. Many religions preach that marriage should pertain to opposite sex couples only. Religion is the cause of many discriminatory acts, particularly towards the LBGT community. Society has progressed in spite of religion not because of it.
Evolution is not a religion(where did YOU get that from) but a scientific fact. The world is over a billion years old. Species have evolved from the most simple to the most complex. Species, in many cases, will continue to evolve and adapt according to the environment.
Why do you STILL persist in denying evolution? Evolution is a reality. If you have analyzed, just not merely read the bible, evolution was mentioned. The world being created in seven days is a metaphor for evolution believe it or not! I was taught evolution from elementary school and have read numerous books on it. The world would have not existed without evolution.
By the way, evolution is not inconsistent with a belief in God. I mentioned religion, never God. I believe in God but not in any form of organized religion. God is outside and beyond the purview of religion which is a manmade construct. However, my believing in God does not preclude me from believing in evolution and scientific findings. To say that one cannot believe in God and evolution is illogical in its premise. There are many scientists, including those who believe in evolution, who believe in God and/or religion.
Not to digress, I defend atheists and will continue to do so because there is so much religious bigotry against them in addition to them being so marginalized in American society. Atheists are some of the most vilified and demonized people in this religiously obsessed society. Atheists and agnostics have the unmitigated right to believe as they please. They are not harming anyone. Anyone who I feel is wronged and is harmless to society, I will defend and speak up for them. God is neither a judge nor respector of persons. He/she is beyond ALL judgement. I think you should put this principle in practice.
"Hope" for atheists? Who are you or anyone else for that matter the imprimatur as to what people should believe? To each his/her own in terms of belief, spiritual, and/or ethical systems. A person can believe what he/she wishes to believe as long as he/she does not harm anyone else. Not everyone is religious; not everyone is a Christian and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with that!
Many Christians believe that their belief system is the only, legitimate one and that people can only get to God through Christ. However, Christianity is not the only legitimate belief system. There are various belief systems just as legitimate as Christianity: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judasim, Wicca and other belief systems.
Buddha is revered by many just as Christ is. No one religion, spiritual, and/or ethical principle is any better than the other. It is time some Christians realize this. There is NO ONE way but there are MANY WAYS believe it or not!
A final response to the thread "I believe there is hope for the atheist(s), hopefully religionists will evolve, demonstrating spiritual maturity, becoming broadminded enough to adopt an inclusive philosophy of all ethical and spiritual beliefs, including the atheist and agnostic. Also, DON'T worry about the atheist and agnostic, they are doing fine and THRIVING. People are PEOPLE regardless of their religious, spiritual, and/or ethical principles. No one has preeminence nor hegemony over the other.
That's assuming it's the actual way we got here. ID, as an alternative negates this.
This is your fundamental error in logic! You lump Christians in with all religious people. God is not behind any "organised religion"! He is looking for sons and daughters, not slaves, robots or machines. He sure is. There you said it with your own words. It's FAITH based! Sorry, but the Bible clearly states that He WILL judge each person, and it will be absolutely fair and just.
Well, I'm sorry, but this is also incorrect.
Jesus said HE was/is the ONLY way. Which, if you look at it even logically, must be true. He would have said "I am one way", or God has MANY ways, but, since He came as God, in the flesh, made the declaration, it must be so.
You (or anyone else)choosing to disregard that is another matter, but it certainly won't hold water with God.
I highlighted in red, the points I was answering.
The bible is one of many religious books. It is NOT THE ONLY such book. There are the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, the Talmud, and other such books. The bible has been revamed so many times. Jesus is NOT THE ONLY PATHWAY to God. There have been and are others such as Buddha, Shiva, Mohammed, and others. In fact, EACH person has HIS/HER particular pathway to God.
Jesus is a representation of the hgher form of consciousness. He indicated many times what he can do, the rest of us could do likewise if we are willing to evolve spiritually. He did not come to the Earth plane to save us but gave us the tools in which to evolve into a higher state of consciousness and awareness. Please do some more reading and research on the Christ before commenting further. There is NO ONLY WAY to God; that very premise is totally inconclusive at best.
Some books to read:
Jesus: A Story of Enlightment by Deepak Chopra
I Say Unto You:Jesus, Son of God or Mystic by Osho
Discover the Power Within You : A Guide to the Unexplored Depths Within by Eric Butterworth
I see you are reading the wrong books.
Try reading the Bible.
It was written by men of God, foretelling the coming of Jesus (Messiah), and the New Testament, was written as eyewitness accounts, not some philosophers, or commentators 2000 years after Jesus lived.
Perhaps you ought to do some honest research, not find that which supports your presuppositions.
The bible is just like any other book. The bible does not have any preeminence over other religious books such as the Talmud, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, and other religious works. Why don't you broaden your religious horizons and read books other than the bible. The bible has been so altered throughout history. Did you know that there are books that aren't included in the bible? Please get real!
Of course, they would call it fact, a theory is a collection of facts meant to explain an phenomenon.
I really seriously doubt you have that education, you certainly don't seem to know anything about it and your argument is very much like every other believer who has no clue about evolution.
Now, I know you don't have that education, no one with a degree in biology would ever say those things.
Astute observation, EncephaloDead! Very astute! People with a degree in science KNOW BETTER, EncephaloDead. People with a science degree and/or scientific background know the veracity/validity of evolution. Had the nerve to critique me because I know the veracity of evolution. The overwhelming majority of college educated people BELIEVE in and KNOW THE VALIDITY of evolution. It really causes one to wonder, doesn't it?
EncephaloDead, I had a friend who is highly educated yet believe that the world is only 6,000 years old. If it isn't in the bible, she is not interested in knowing about it. How extremely quaint. hmmmmm. Remember the article indicating the correlation between religious belief and intelligence?
Oh dear, YOU said it, not I! A related question on evolution has been posted in the question/answer section, please check it out! The question is stating how unfeasible macroevolution is and how the scientific community is unscientific based upon the belief in evolution. Really now? Let THE GAMES begin! LIFE and PEOPLE are so FULL OF........SURPRISES!
Sure, we can conceive of that world, no problem. In Norse mythology, it was Valhalla, ancient Greece had Elysium, one of three spiritual realms. What is very interesting is that early Judaism had only one realm where all the dead went, the wicked and the righteous; Sheol.
There are many more afterlife representations and stories, all meant as a reward system for being righteous and pious, a place of eternal punishment or something in between.
If you and I were both born during the time of the Vikings, we too would be expected and encouraged to die in battle and join the Einherjar. In early Greece, one would have to be chosen by the gods, a hero amongst all men.
All of these realms can and have been conceived already, they are the realms created in the minds of men who were indeed "stuck in nature" just like the rest of us are now.
It's plain to see you have chosen Christianity as your worldview, which is fine, no one is going to tell you not to have your faith.
Just like there are many afterlife stories, there are as many faiths, Christianity being one of them. Although it is one of the largest groups of believers, it is still a minority when faced against world population, which means it is a truth held by a minority of people. And, even then, there are thousands of various denominations, all having their version of the same truth.
So, it would stand to reason that any beefs you have about Christianity being the truth should be with other believers of the world, from all other religions. They are actually the ones who disagree with you as well as each other.
Those who accept nature as being our reality have no beefs with any faiths and the truths they preach, we have no claims to any other realities, supernatural or otherwise.
The buck stops here.
That would be true, IF, you stayed the same as you are now.
With sin in ones life, eternity would be no less that hell, anyway.
True many would not want to live forever in bad conditions, example .like a party gone bad within an istablishment, people fighting, threats, jealousy , bad and unclean inviroment ,injustice of people , The point is you are right, but have you ever had an enjoyable family moment or hours of enjoyment and the time got away, you did not pay attention to the time you did not want it to end. true happiness has not been open to us yet ,we only see glimpses of what the future holds, We are on this side for a short time! The real life is round the corner. Just because we where born in this world or system does not mean we control anything.
Anyone who comes to Christ has a testimony. The Bible says only God knows one's heart and it always amazes me how atheists, knowing very little of a convert, the Bible or even what they believe (in some instances) will attack a person's sincerity at the drop of a hat, or from watching a video clip about what they believe if it disagrees with their atheist view. Perhaps this woman who now has joined the vast majority of human beings who believe there is more to life than molecular evolution and the natural world is making a valid point, that what atheists believe simply isn't reality, that there is a supernatural and you will never discover it if you enslave your mind to the idea there is nothing beyond the natural. Say this to an atheist and the best they can come up with is humans have evolved to be prone to delusion, Dawkin's fall back defense (of course even though he is part of that "evolutionary development" somehow he is immune from delusion). Atheists have to contort logic to make their point.
aka dj The fact is, the atheists who flock here to refute your thread are closed minded people blind to the truth who would rather go to their grave believing after the day they die they will no longer exist, as if they never were and so what does it matter anyway! This is what they choose to believe as opposed to believing in an eternal future with a loving omniscient creator God (who has a plan for their life even before they were born), witnessed by disciples who recorded their accounts thousands of years ago. I ask you which needs more faith to believe? There are many testimonies of atheists who have come to Christ, probably over the years many more times the number of atheists in the world today. Here is a recent one. Of course they will say the same thing of this video as of yours, attacking the veracity of the convert because they are blind to the truth so they have no choice but to denigrate anything that disagrees with their point of view. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ … nity.html.
The link didn't work because of the period at the end - should be http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ … anity.html
I have to wonder. I recently wrote a hub about how the Wiccan religion changed my life. I've known many other Wiccans/Pagans to share similar experiences of conversion.
I wonder if you're willing to just accept other people's testimony, even if our religion and Gods are different than your own?
@ Wiccan Sage, I doubt it. Many people adopt various ethical, spiritual, and philosophical principles which changed their lives. I was raised a Catholic and left that religion at 21 because of its dogmatic oppressiveness and misogynic attitudes, especially in terms of women's societal roles and contraceptive issues.
I believed in God but refused to have any part of any organized religion. In my twenties, I read many New Age books and found that such beliefs mirrored my own. I felt comfortable and began to absorb New Age principles. New Age has changed my life for the better. I believe that life is a series of opportunities and that failure is merely a lesson for have evolution and growth instead of a stain which is taught in Catholicism. I am also more accepting of varied lifestyles since I became a New Ager. I have also learned to think beyond the box.
Catholicism to me was stultifying to say the least. I found that Catholicism stressed blind obedience and conformism in addition to reliance on some religious authority I AM ONE PERSON who isn't blindly obedient nor conformist.
To digress, I was always a curious child. In the first grade, there was a test and the nun(repressive, neurotic, and totally anally obsessive) instructed us not to look at the pages of the test. I looked nevertheless much to her chagrin. I was not a conformist, even as a child. Catholicism is not one for innovative thought at all. It rewards those who blindly accept and obey. It is a very exclusive religion which emphasizes an extremely rigid life view. Glad to have LEFT it!
@Wiccan Sage, glad to make an acquaintance of a fellow, nontraditionalist spiritualist. Good to talk about non-traditional religions and to add to the discussion. There are Christians and other traditional religionists who become atheists or agnostics. There are atheists and agnostics who become traditional religionists. There are Christians and other traditional religionists who become non-traditional spiritualists and so on. Whatever makes one happy and does not harm anyone. However, the subject of the thread disturbs me. "Hope" for the atheist(s)? What hope, people have the right to believe in any ethical ,religious, and/or spiritual principle they wish. Why are some people highly intrusive of other's people beliefs especially when IT DOES NOT CONCERN them?
@Wiccan Sage, there are some people who adamantly aver that others should believe as THEY do. If they elect not to do so, they are "lost" and "in need of saving." If they really believe in God, they would realize that God or the Universal Force is beyond any human judgement. God and/or the Universal Force or Consciousness really do not care what one believes in; what is important is if one is kind and caring towards humankind. If one is condemning of humankind, one's religious pontifications are indeed pointless or moot.
Except, the God of creation, the universe and originator of life, has SPOKEN to us, through Jesus Christ.
It seems that you are correct. He IS beyond human judgement. That's the very reason He has made Himself know, lest we never find Him.
He was the one who told us we need saving.
He's the One who said HOW He wants to accomplish that.
He's the ultimate, absolute authority on the subject.
We, believers, are simply trying to spread that message.
Hi GM -- I'm sorry, I think I posted the wrong way! I never meant to imply a Wiccan's personal conversion story might weigh more than one of another religion-- or that atheists need 'hope' or 'saving' or religion in any way.
I agree, what religion you practice doesn't matter (and I don't think it matters if one is an atheist, either). I agree, I also find the notion disturbing.
I was more curious about the original poster's position on religious testimony from other belief systems.
I do indeed accept other's testimony.
After all, it's their experience, their life.
That, however, does not equate to the same outcome, as does the doctrine of salvation, only found in Jesus Christ.
Alternate "faiths" will be around as long as we, humans are around.
There is one (logical) problem that this poses. Several, opposing "truths", cannot all be simultaneously true!
Jesus makes the claim, that He's the ONLY way, the ONLY saviour, and rose from the dead to verify all He said and did.
As people keep pointing out, they believe there are many way to God.
The two are mutually exclusive! You can't have it both ways!
You can't have it both ways, but you CAN have it that Jesus was full of crap (or didn't exist at all). Ar at least that the people reporting what he said were full of crap.
As soon as we begin to question Jesus' words the whole thing falls apart as none of his claims of the supernatural can be tested and others have promoted as good or better lifestyle than Jesus did.
Wilderness, do not EVEN bother, I am so through with THIS discussion. AKA-DJ is going to persist in his beliefs. That's fine; however, when he forces his beliefs on othersr, that is beyond the pale. I shall NOT argue any more! He has HIS beliefs and I HAVE MINE. DONE!
That is SSSOOO hyppocritical!
You "force" your belief just as much as you say I do.
NOW, you're done!
Could have saved us both the trouble, when I asked you to leave the thread days ago.
Looking forward to round two, with you, another day.
Nice chatting with you. Sorry about any sarcasm. I do try and keep it under control.
Exactly...let it go.
When someone's premise is that one is EITHER an atheist OR a Christian, reason and logic are done for.
YOU can have it that way.
I won't. I DO believe.
Remember, it's a FAITH thing. I don't need it "tested"!
Jesus has made Himself real to me.
Of course you can! Certainly I never insinuated or said anything different - you can believe anything you wish. I fully understand that you think Jesus made himself real to you - it's not hard when no evidence is required and that's what you want to hear anyway. However and "whyever" it happened, I would not take that belief from you, although I will always point out what reality, supported by testable evidence, is.
Ahh, I see.
So you're willing to 'accept' testimony of people of other religions, but equally willing to dismiss it when it doesn't fit in with your beliefs and experiences (like in my case, in which my spiritual experiences taught me Jesus is not the way for everyone, that there is no single way at all, that the very idea there is 'one way' is a man-made myth).
Why should you be surprised then when an atheist dismisses testimony of your religion when it does not fit in with their beliefs and experiences?
There are different types of atheists. Some know there is a God, but others don't. The bible says, "My people perish for lack of knowledge."
Others are just too smart for their own good. All that they are enlightened to know works against them; God can't be physically seen; therefore, He cannot exist.
Not a single atheist knows there is a god. Nor anyone else, for that matter as it cannot be proved, but no atheist even believes there is a god. That is the definition of "atheist" after all.
Only an idiot would claim that because "god can't be physically seen; therefore, he cannot exist". The same can be said for a virus, an amoeba, a hydrogen atom and most of the rest of the universe. Being invisible most definitely does NOT preclude existence - not even having no detectable "results", like god, can do that.
Sorry, but even someone who labels themself "atheist" isn't really an atheist. There is a difference between believing that there is a God and not wanting to accept it, versus believing that there's not enough evidence to support that there is a God, and more specifically that if there is a God, that any of the religions has it right. Anyone who feels they are in denial isn't really an atheist... they are a theist that's probably angry or unwilling to give up whatever they secretly think "God" would want them to give up if they became religious/devout. That's not an atheist. An atheist is any individual that denies the existence of a god from a logical standpoint. If they secretly believe in God, by default they aren't an atheist.
ATW - in your opinion, in your common usage, can an atheist say "I don't know"? "I have no belief either way"?
Or is that limited to agnostics? Because I'm finding the word to mean mostly "I don't know" on the forums of HP - a usage I would never have put to the word.
An agnostic is someone who thinks that we cannot know, but they are technically an atheist by default because they've seen no evidence to definitively state that there is a god (and don't think that we can ever know because of the nature of the mind, subjectivity, etc).
Edit: "I don't know," and "I've seen no evidence for it" is about the same. For how can you know something without evidence?
I meant those two to be equivalent.
I see - you seem in line with most of the posters in HP then. I grew up using "atheist" as a foolish person that thought they knew there was no god and made the claim. "Agnostic" was the person saying "I don't know" and was the default position for any thinking, honest person.
I'm trying to come into agreement with modern usage, but still get tripped up occasionally.
Thank you psycheskinner, I AM TOO FINE THE WAY I AM. Again, religionists don't know how to mind THEIR OWN business. Atheists are fine the way they are. NOT EVERYONE wants to be/become a Christian and that is OKAY. Religion is not the BE AND END ALL. PLEASE GET A LIFE! PROSLETYZING IS WRONG, let OTHERS BE! Methinks that this thread is promoting hate speech against atheists. Who do religionists believe that EVERYONE has to be religious? Really now, isn't that illogical thinking. Everyone is DIFFERENT and such differences should be RESPECTED!
You sure sound angry.
If this thread was directed at you (specifically), I would understand your response.
However, it's an open ended thread, aimed at anyone who wants to discuss the OP, POLITELY!
No YELLING, or accusing of "bothering and proselytising".
Besides, when exactly did I mention everybody has to become religious?
If I'm not mistaken, you were the one to introduce that line!
You want to stay an atheist? I respect that, AND the fact that you can be different.
You know, I think it is pretty funny that someone hijacked your name and tried to start a forum. I hope no one does that to me. But anyway, I am sorry, but I found it funny...
In my opinion, this hub is not promoting hatred for the atheist, but hope. If anything, we Christians are hated and mocked.
Not the Christian, just the control they try to exert over others.
Hate the sin, not the sinner.
It WASN'T funny at all! I hope that it does not happen to YOU! However, the troll was discovered and banned. This not only happened to me but I was informed that it happened to another hubber. Someone hijacked that hubber's thread, harassing the hubber throughout. At least, my troll was nipped in the bud. I REPORTED the troll immediately! NO ONE messes with ME!
Christians are not mocked nor are they discriminated against. However, it is the atheist who are mocked and discriminated against. Although there is greater tolerance and inclusions of varying ethical and spiritual beliefs, atheists are still stigmatized and marginalized in many American subcultures. Atheists are considered to be evil or worse. They are oftentimes believed to have no moral compass because they do not believe in God or a Universal Force.
Atheists are among the most misunderstood and demonized of all American social groups. Some Christians, NOT ALL, particularly those of the more extreme, fanatical, conservatives, and fundamentalistic varieties view atheists as hellbent and quite damnable. They contend that atheists are lost souls and in need of some type of redemption. Let me correct this, not only the more extreme and conservative of Christians but the more extreme and conservative of many religions have the same opinion of atheists.
It is true that all who reject Christ are lost, but I don't think atheists are less intelligent or without a moral compass. I don't think less of an atheist personally. I just don't agree with them.
Maybe Some one Atheist would say I am extreme in my faith, just as they are extreme in their believe, this is true, and they have a right to their choice just as I do, I have learned there is a right way and wrong way to everything in life, many people enjoy the wrong instead of choosing the right. The problem is one offers temporary enjoyment and a short lived life, when the other offers a new life into a world without sickness and death, a cleaned up earth, and the resurrection of many family members and friends, This was a promise made to us for us. The promise is not temporary. 2Peter 3:13 tells us so. What can you be offered better than this from the true God himself? Psalm 83:18. There is nothing. For an exchange has been made to purchase all humans the right to live in the future without all the problems we have today, when you buy,it belongs to you ,you poses it , In order for us to be counted in this transaction we must recognize the value and show our deepest respect.
According to those who say truth is relative, your statement re right and wrong way would be irrelevant.
They would argue the point of right and wrong.
It seems that, when it comes to faith, (read as religious), those who have it are wrong, and those that don't are right. (Atheist).
Then, the reverse is true for the Christian.
Example we both look out the window and see a view of a park, what I see with my own eyes has convinced me that this is a park and what kind, when you see the same vision you see your version of what is outside your window ,I do not argue your point of what you see, but people can not tell me what I witness with my own eyes, I can tell you my experience ,but if you doubt it because you can not see what I see then there is no value in it for you, Many people will not experience what is spiritual and that means they will not understand, it does not mean people will always remain this way, it is like a women being told for the first time she is pregnant ,reality sets in when she has the symptoms , and development ,another women could tell her what the pain is like ,but she really will not know until she is experiencing the pain. Like a man he will not understand exactly what a woman's pain is . But does that mean she is making it up ,it does not exist no! Reality is many people see things that others don't, many understand languages others don't! ,many people believe in things that others don't , but does that stop people from learning ,and looking into matters that could be life saving. there is no harm in learning how to be good ,no harm in learning how to treat your Neighbors with love and respect, there is no harm in being peaceable, and that is what God Almighty is all about, if you disagree with these important things then you will not see.
I find it interesting that Christians persist in the self-serving rhetoric of "we Christians are hated and mocked".
You can barely get elected dog-catcher in the US if you are not a self-described Christian.
I'm sure they'll be tremendously relieved to know that you don't feel their cause is lost.
Hey dj. Interesting video. It's great to see someone unafraid to follow wherever their path leads them. So many spend so much time hiding behind what others attempt to force them to believe is the only acceptable path. I'm sure she had many on her blog attempting to bully her intellectually into stopping the search. Good for her that she followed her own heart.
Thanks for sharing.
There is nothing wrong with atheists. They have the right to their beliefs. Whose concern is it of anyone as to whether a person is an atheist or not? Why do so many religionists strongly insist that others should be like them? What makes so many religionists fear and hate atheists?
Atheists aren't bothering anyone. It is the religionists who harangue people and maintain that others should be like them. The thread should be rephrased to say, " Is THERE hope for religionists who insist that others BE LIKE THEM.
So. Which religionist forced you to read this and comment?
I see you are well and truly set in your ways, so, no need to stick around any longer.
I have SAID my piece in response to THIS THREAD. I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE. I shall respond to this thread and continue to do so AS I WELL PLEASE!
Well, here's YET ANOTHER thread about atheists. Really, what concern it is?
Some people just CAN'T let others BE. They should live THEIR OWN life and MIND their OWN business. If they did THAT, they would not have time to be concerned about other people's lives, beliefs, or whatEVER!
There is no hope for you (becoming a Christian), therefore, it's pointless to argue on this specific thread.
But wasn't your whole point in starting this thread is that there IS hope for everyone-including even those who do not acknowledge the existence of God? GM does acknowledge a spiritual realm and an idea of God. As such, it would seem to me that there is more hope for her becoming a Christian than the average atheist. Seems like you're not as filled with hope as your OP might present you to be?
Yes, you are correct about the OP.
However, GMW was the first to start yelling.
I can't help my sarcasm at times.
I'm all for polite, respectful discussions.
I haven't met many(atheists) here that fit that category.
Sooner or later they get abusive, condescending or rude.
To reiterate, I am NOT going ANYWHERE. I shall CONTINUE to respond as I PLEASE!
If you desire to continue, then don't just do as you please.
Consider those already here, PLEASE!
Good for you "gmwilliams".
More of us should stand our ground against this bigotry and discarding of those deemed unworthy because they are not Christians.
So, you admit your bias:
Either one IS a Christian OR there is "hope" that one will become a Christian OR one is nothing---not even worth bothering with.
Thank goodness that I am a secular humanist. We value all people without reference to their belonging to/not belonging to any given sect.
Great points on both sides, But I will ask these questions for thought! I have never seen gmwilliams, or Wiccan sage, but through your words and thoughts on printed page you speak loud and clear, you reason and ask questions, and express your thoughts and feelings, I do not know if you are real , you say you are, The point is you know who you are, does that make you not real because I have not seen you in person? I would say no! So Is God's word on written pages as well, We can not see air but we breath it and need it, there are gases we can not see but they are fatal if we ignor there existence, Also mans life cycle say 80 - 100 years of life , which does not last long enough to evolve into any thing because his cells die very fast,, And a ape is still ape and reproduce apes, not a man. I do believe in a highly intelligent being, I believe he is responsible for all living things, why because nothing exist on its own ,everything man makes is a copy of what this highly intelligent being has already made, Example people have made robots , they are limited what they can do. Yet when we see one we know there is a designer and programmer of this robot, we do not say it evolved from another thing, we accept a maker, I will say if man can make a robot and many machines only using a percent of his mental power ,what makes people think that a greater mind using 100 percent and perfect in all his power could not make living beings, he is the one that has the patent to all his creations, Our earth is made for humans in every way possible A home for our kind, and all other things outside the earth compliment it ,for heat and light, all things have order, even our cells.
Coming back to this late, but you mention my name. I do agree with you, that it's like the Bible, but I don't agree in the way you think.
See, people on the internet are always making up pseudonym and writing things on any number of subjects, claiming to be an entirely different person, fabricating experiences and putting them forth, And there are always people who believe them whole-heartedly, who take it on faith and look for things to justify this believe that the person on the other end of the internet is really who/what they claim to be. And some people are going to read the same thing and not believe it. Basically, just because someone wrote the words down, doesn't mean they truly came from the source you think they came from, and doesn't even mean the things actually happened, and it doesn't mean what they believed was ever true.
I don't even want to get into evolution with you because A) it's besides the point and B) what you just wrote about species not being able to evolve in a life time demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of evolution (there is nothing in evolution that says species evolve in a lifetime; it takes hundreds to thousands+ generations of small changes for something to evolve; and evolution doesn't say one species must die off for another to evolve out of it, just as the tree doesn't have to die off for the branch to grow out of it).
The point is you accept something as truth or non-truth based on whether or not it confirms your own experiences and beliefs. Just as you experience your God, I experience my Gods and Goddesses; Hindus experience theirs; and atheists experience none. All of us are flawed little humans in a vast universe, our experiences filtered through our own perspectives and understandings of the information coming in. For anyone to step up and claim others need hope, well it's arrogant and condescending because it's devaluing the other person's experiences and deeply held beliefs. It should be no wonder that some people will take offense to it.
This is true that people do write under disguise , But in my case I do not have to do that what I speak is what I know and I feel that I should be able to speak like everyone else, and what you speak may be based on your own experience , But I do not take offense to what others believe ,because I am very much aware of others believes , But can we be offended if we send our children to read and write to learn the basics and to understand the how's and whys We allow others to enlighten and help to see , we will allow education in many forms, Then when it comes to the bible which is a basic of standard in right and wrong, and good and bad, now some one is offended . People i live the truth from the bible rather they admit to it or not! Example how did you learn what offense means , the word God! the word human , the language comes from the bible nowhere else. Not just the word but why it exist. And if you where to travel all over the world the word man would sound different but would mean the same man. As well as many other everyday words, who created the word God? a language created way before we where born.
After my post I noticed something written was not funny ! If I offended you in anyway it was not my intention, I responded to your your words about christains believing in. God, and take this very serious.
No, it was not addressing you Kiss and Tales but another previous poster who indicated that someone who trolled me, hijacking my username and staring a forum was funny- NO, IT WASN'T. People who use other's people usernames are DANGEROUS and VICIOUS people, worse than the worst criminal. However, the troll was banned shortly thereafter. To add, people have been arrested for impersonating someone and/or forging other's people name. Well, that is water under the bridge, no need rehashing it! Let's continue with the discussion. Each people has a right to his/her belief, spiritual, religious, or ethical which should be respected by all parties involved.
This is true we all are free moral agents God forces no one to come to him, this is a personal choice each human will make. But I believe in all fairness the truth exist just as well as the lie, We will chose one rather we want to or not, The point is no one will say they never heard it.
And it's living proof that messages written down aren't always from who they claim to be from ;-)
True but messages from secretaries are accepted, and the message sent is more important then the mailman. Does that make a life saving message invalid? Because you received it by someone you really do not know, say a fire breaks out ,some one gets this message to you ,would you question the deliver because you just do not believe this is possible ? Time and minutes counting while life is on the line.
We'd all like to believe there is hope - hope for the morons of society, hope for world peace, hope to end child abuse, hope to end world hunger - we surely do not lack hope.
As a self proclaimed Agnostic (more so Atheist then Christian) I gotta tell you I think it's a load of garbage too.
Believe what YOU want. Hope for what's important to YOU. Keep YOUR opinions and judgment to a minimum and hope might just survive. Our world revolves on diversity however we severely lack understanding of one another.
It's a good idea to use spell check on your posts when you're calling other people morons.
I do agree with you about all the problems of the world ,but if I told you. as an example the cure to the most deadly disease is available and you have the information to get this cure, would you just say I do not believe because you do not know how the cure was made, or because you know little about the creator of this life saving medicine, the earth is in its bad condition because Satan called God a liar, the issue was to try to prove we did not need God for anything, we could make decisions own our own .Adam and Eve listen to the voice of Satan. And that is the real reason why the earth is in bad condition, example it is like some one questions your ability as a employer. , they say you are a liar and you do not ave the right to tell your employees you hired how to perform their job . Would it solve the problem by firing everybody ?
Well when our Heavenly Father was put in this same position he did not destroy all rebellious parties, instead he allowed generations of people to be born and through history man has been living without him interfering , he has allowed Satan to rule for some time , now his rulership is about up. The point is the Angles, and a great crowd of people that know the situation can say we really do need our heavenly farther to intervene and bring his government to reverse all damage done, this will be settle for all time. the book of Daniel tells about the image of world powers that came and gone in certain sequence, we are the last at the toes. the book of Revelations tells how this alls ends, the point is the real issues and the solutions is in the treasure of the bible. People really should take it serious ,
If you were dying and had had 1,000 charlatans trying to sell you a snake oil "cure" that, after 1,000 tries, still didn't work would you listen to #1,001 with the identical spiel?
You mean to say, that 1000 tries of (finding) God were all failures?
Im my case, it only took looking at about 6-10 options.
NONE came close to what Jesus has done on my first encounter.
I suggest, you haven't tried to find Him 1000 times.
And I'm suggesting that instead of god you found your imagination and conscience.
I'm so tired of people who don't know anything about me, can so flippantly diagnose my "problem".
Spare me, please.
Yes, much like people telling me I have not looked 1000 times for a god out there.
Spare me, please.
I asked a question.
I didn't make a statement about you, much less a "diagnosis".
I AM sparing you, of that which I dislike also.
"I suggest, you haven't tried to find Him 1000 times."
"I didn't make a statement about you, much less a "diagnosis"."
Wonder which statement was made by the cat walking on the keyboard and which by aka-dj?
Here is your "suggestion" to me.
"And I'm suggesting that instead of god you found your imagination and conscience."
You, indeed were putting a form of diagnosis on me.
I suggest to you, that I did INDEED meet God.
There is NO argument against it, because YOU did not experience MY experience.
Therefore, it amounts to nothing more than speculation or guessing.
But, to your credit, you are pleasant and respectful about it.
Do you mind sharing your experience with meeting God? Is it further back in this thread?
We are not supposed to self promote.
However, since you asked, I wrote a hub on it, since it has come up several times over the years.
It's called My Story of Faith.
I have written several hubs that are faith related, that also give insight into my life, for those who care to read (them).
I read the hub you linked, it does not say you met God. All it shows is that you had an emotional experience that you cannot put into words. Everyone has those. So what?
I see you are another one who knows better than, I what happened in my life!
Contrary to your assertion that I didn't meet God, I actually invited Jesus into my life, and He answered by doing exactly that. (Jesus IS God, you realise that, right? Or perhaps not.)
Yes, it gave me an emotional experience as well, which has lasted for 35+ years.
He has revealed Himself more and more over time. Subjective? Yes. But isn't every relationship?
I don't live by emotions. In fact, I have been labeled as quite "even keeled" by those who have known me all my life.
No, I read the hub you asked us to read. Are the words there not yours?
"Relationships" are with real, live people, not dead guys who allegedly existed 2000 years ago.
That is highly debatable, based on your posts here and your hubs.
My relationship is NOT with a dead guy.
Romans 10;9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Clearly, what sets me & you apart, is the issue of Jesus either being dead, or alive. I know it's the latter. If He were dead, I couldn't have a relationship.
You're right, it's a mythological guy.
Or, even having existed, which is highly questionable. But if he did, he's long dead.
That's the point, you don't have a relationship because that would require real, live people.
I disagree. Imaginary friends are very real to a child. They have relationships with them, even. The imaginary friend isn't real. The relationship they think they have with them is, however. And many experts will tell you a child growing up with imaginary friends will develop more or less as well as a kid with real ones.
"Imaginary friends and imaginary companions are a psychological and social phenomenon where a friendship or other interpersonal relationship takes place in the imagination rather than external physical reality. Imaginary friends are fictional characters created for improvisational role-playing. They often have elaborate personalities and behaviors. Although they may seem very real to their creators, children usually understand that their imaginary friends are not real."
Thank you for confirming that you don't believe, and therefore, you cannot see the possibility of having such a relationship.
If you DID, believe Jesus Christ is alive today, you would be like me (and countless millions) who are born again, children of God.
I understand, believing is one thing, reality another. But, rather than believing, I grew up in reality. I have no problem with the "children" of God pretend relationships. Perhaps, some day, they too may grow up.
It would be interesting to know how YOU define reality.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't define reality. Reality defines itself and we only observe it. Science helps explain how reality works. Gods have never been shown to be part of reality other than within the imaginations of people, exactly like invisible pink squirrels.
So you only accept as reality things that you can observe?
You don't accept things that can only be imagined?
Or, their observed effects, like gravity.
Like invisible pink squirrels, unicorns and gods?
I'm glad that you are open minded enough that you would be able to accept a creator if there were enough evidence presented.
Of course, I would, every scientist in the world would accept the proof of a creator. However, that proof would have to come in the form of a creator showing us all that he is indeed our creator. Nothing else has ever been shown as any kind of proof and nothing else will suffice.
I totally agree with that.
And I agree that the evidence isn't there. Yet.
Then, you and every other believer contradicts yourself when you say there is a god.
I'm saying enough evidence will eventually be found. There are plenty pieces of it out there, but not yet enough to prove the case.
First, I responded exactly as you did, with exactly the same concept; that I know better than you what you did or experienced. Which is what you said to me.
Second, I do not accept subjective feelings in anyone as proof of anything. I do not accept untested conclusions or hypothesis's as proof of anything. Because of this, your claim is just that - an unsupported claim - and is not to be considered as truth by anyone, including you.
It is, after all, a difference in requirements for proof/truth. You operate with one set, I with another. And obviously, when I say you have not met God I will use my own set of requirements, not the set you would use.
That's either absurd, or totally non applicable to this circumstance.
There is no scientific test/proof/evidence that I or anyone can give you to the following statements;
"I met Queen Elizabeth, 30 years ago".
"My grandfather was an alcoholic".
"I used to wear glasses, but the Lord healed me, and my glasses were wrong. I could no longer read through them after I was healed".
How about a photograph, perhaps published in a 30 year old magazine?
How about a dated statement from a doctor?
You are correct. The assumption that the lord healed you cannot be verified.
Of course, if none are true then there will be no evidence, but I assume that is not your point.
I get what you are saying,many people reach out to find the true God or Heavenly Father Psalm 83:18 Why does it seem there are many avenues or roads, and many come to a dead end ! What I have learned that he is a reader of hearts. People are not , we judge by appearances , he goes deeper, and he really is not far off from us , He wants us to be in a relationship with him, but if we can believe and respectfully welcome the source he is using yes he will not be far away. And if you are having a connection problem Satan steps in to keep you blinded till the end of all issues have been finally settled, he has successfully done a good job in taking people's attention off the real issues , there is a scripture that says keep your eyes on the things unseen for the things seen are only temporary, this means spiritual issues, yes these governments are seen ruling, but the one unseen will rule forever, Because all religion does not have the approval of the father and his Son Jesus. Why ! Because they are not pure in truth, they are Hypocrites. But it is sad the truth ,or example the real goal is mix in with fools goal, people need to test it out ,study it to make sure of the authentic truth instead of giving up on finding real goal. Satan cause the mix up.
2 Corinthians 4:18
Daniel 2:44 is making its entrance.
Sorry, this wreaks of indoctrination. Don't let others control your mind.
Kind of what I got from it, too. If you want god in your life, put aside reason and thought, leaving imagination and belief to decided what is there. That will probably result in a god, yes, but one outside of reality and existing only in the imagination.
Works for millions of people, though. Just not for those whose mind keeps saying "Whups, hold on there. That makes no sense!".
Being taught that reason is brought on by evil Satan is frightening.
Yes it is frightening but just as good exist you must admit that the earth now is filled with many kinds of evil.
As it has always been. At least it is getting some better; more of the world can be considered civilized than in the past.
True it would appear as always , but only since our existence , because we where born from the first two pair, after their bad choice, we where scared with their sentence of death, that is why no matter rather we are good ,bad. young and old , anyone can die. We all live this reality, We have many grave yards. but a cure was in the making ,and it will be administered to many ,In the mean time. until it is fully given, accurate knowledge is vital in receiving this cure. Just like any other dreaded disease how can you receive the cure if you o not know where? and who,?and how this is can be received, it will not be forced people will make the choice to receive it ,
There are many things in life that will never make since! And if you are ok with that thought ,that is your free will . But what is valuable to others may never be for others. , And the thought will not change the future.
This may be weak to your mind ,but it is truth to a vast crowd, but you and any one are always welcome to your own thoughts and conclusions.
PS. I don't own a cat. Nor do I have one randomly walking across my keyboard.
My spelling is off ,I want to correct goal to gold! Fools gold.
So must one be a Christian in order for you to believe that they are not atheists?
Is atheism the new word for non-Christian?
There are Christians that are not Christians ,which means that actions speaks for itself the truth, Self claimed but far from Jesus ways and steps,
Many people are Atheists because of the hypocrisy in religion, well understood, and bad experiences , Some are people that only believe in what they can see , which can be questionable , because they believe in air an invisible substance we all breath in to live ,So when the truth finally reaches them they reject this also. The key to truth is never to deviate from the authentic map. anyone that tells you something different then what is written in God's word ,can possibly stray from the truth. You have to compare what is said against what is written, many religions are based on man made doctrines and rules, not supported by truth in the bible.
Most people will take the word of imperfect people like themselves .Also
we as humans have many things in the heavens as well as on earth that keeps our lives possible everyday, we did not create this global home ,or the planets in space and sun moon and stars that we benefit from, example Just as we would put an aquarium together for tropical fish we would provide a wonderful environment , light , heat. and salt water is vital to these fish, , did this just happen by it self? No a welled planned set up made this possible for fish to live , We as humans are greater then fish our home is superb , every detail was well planned. There are many reasons why people do not believe in Almighty God and his word the bible. But to me we can accept many things we see and we know it did not appear on it's own. A well structured house is built ,can we assume when we first see it ,that it just happen to be there without a designer and builder, No. Is this person imaginary No. Every thing has order down to our DNA .
Have you noticed that there are in fact other religions making up about half of all the people on earth?
Yes I have noticed many religions all over the world, how they got started is very interesting, something like the theory tested in a class room. ,the teacher whispers a message to the first student , by the time the message is whispered and gets to the last student, the message repeated is totally distorted , the message has changed and even the meaning, But who really know the true message the one that gave it.
Then obviously the closer you get to the first "whisperer", the closer you get to the original message, right?
According to what you just said, the farther back you go, the more truth in the message. You would end up somewhere in Sumer, or Egypt, wouldn't you?
What I am simply saying is that from the example the message changed as it traveled around the class room, the message started with the teacher and first student she reached ,lets say the last student in the back gets the last whisper. He comes forward to repeat the message ,and it sounds nothing like what the teacher had said! What happen in between time? The same as the truth . Many have handle the word of God wrongly by twisting the meanings and purpose. Just as that example of tropical fish was given well cared for , we as humans are wonderfully cared for despite those that have destroyed many good things on earth. And the truth and purpose for us as humans are about our happiness, Yes we see a different scene now ! Issues had to be settle on who has the right to rule us as creations. Certainly we have learned man has failed. We need the one who created us for happiness in the first place. Soon he will intervene.
You're saying the message changed. So the original message had to come before the distorted message, right?
Take for example the story of Noah. The story of Gilgamesh came a couple of thousand years before the extremely similar story of Noah.
So, according to you're own theory, Gilgamesh would have to be more correct than Noah.
If you have noticed this, you should not make statements based on the assumption that the only possible options are Christian and atheist.
I mean would you believe what a 'prophet' says of God when what he says about simple reality is 50% inaccurate?
Why should I believe your meaning of 50percent . You are a man also. I would believe in more then any man 's word. And yet the bible backs its words up. Used by man as secretaries written under the spirit of perfection.
So, it's both men and women? How about hermaphrodites?
Of course, you do realize the bible was written by men, right?
The story of Gilgamesh was known in the time of the flood, he was mention during the time of Mythological demigods, such as Hercules ,he was known as a Babylonian hero, during this period of time the earth was full of violence sentence for destruction .because the nephilim where half human and angel
Causing a super hybrid. They where evil giants controlling the earth with violence ,Gilgamesh was mention among them.
We are blessed ,All humans today came through Noah's bloodline . All others died in the flood.
Now why would you say that? Animals native to the western hemisphere didn't die - why would you think the people would? Or those in Australia, the far east, the pacific islands or any other location far from Noah.
Actually, anything more than a few miles from Noah survived, including people. So where does the idea that everyone is Noah's descendant come from?
My words and meanings are not just based on Christian and Atheist , only because this hub has the subject in mind I try to stay within the lines of subject, I am one that can easily jump on other related subjects, It does not matter what religion it is , if it is contaminated with untruth , or by its unclean religious practices, it is not considered valid ,or in good standing with the true God or Heavenly Father. In the end he determines his approval.
Welcome to the discussion.
One quick question.
Did you happen to take the time to watch the OP video?
That was supposed to set the tone, & theme of this thread.
Why is very simple. I will get back to you with info on the subject. To start did you know that the Eyptains ,Greeks, Chinese, the Druids of Britain, Polyesains ,Eskimos, and Green landers.Africans, Hindus ,and American Indians ,all have flood stories. I will continue info tomorrow . Appreciate your question. Thanks
And do those peoples all have "their" flood dated at the same time? Do they all die, to the last person, and cannot pass the information along? Big floods leave behind definite geological evidence; does the earth show that everywhere. all at the same time?
How would we know those stories if everyone except Noah and his family died?
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