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God if he/she exists can't show himself/herself ever.

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    Dave36posted 2 years ago

    Hey folks i'm a 41 yr old guy from the UK, iv'e worked all around the world for 20 years on oil refineries....Iv'e met & worked with 1000's of different people, & many different cultures from nearly 40 countries....I'm not practising any form of religion at the moment, but i have always pondered on the question of whether or not, there is a "creator" of some kind....From what iv'e read on the Theory of Evolution, & from my own personal experiences, i'm now leaning towards there being an actual "creator"....I won't go into the details as that would be a waste of time, as any one stuck on just "evolution" as a theory of life, would not entertain any "other" idea....So i'm not on here to promote God, so please no one tell me i'm "brainwashed"....I'm only leaning towards the idea of a "creator", but i'm going to need "more" evidence so "no" brainwashing here!lol....Any way my point is is that "IF" God exists, he/she couldn't "ever" possibly show himself/herself, & i'm only using "logic" here....Because like i say "if" God exists, by definition of God, God would have created us....So "why" would God create us in the first place?, are we here to be "tested", "to learn", "to suffer" even?....There could be "many" reasons we're her (IF God exists), but i think one things for certain:....."IF" God exists & then he/she "shows" himself/herself to us, then that would be "GAME OVER" as far as the "why" we're here in the first place....I mean if life we're a test as to whether we choose to do good or bad, but every one "knew" God really existed, then everyone would "cheat" & be good....Same if we're here to suffer or to learn etc, so we can't ever know the "real" truth, as there would then be no point to this life.......I suppose it would be exactly the same for the Devil, "if" the Devil exists....The Devil could never ever show itself to "us", as if it did, we would then know that for the Devil to exist, God must also exist so again we'd "cheat"!lol....So what do you think folks, do you ever feel like i do, that there's a lot more going on to life than what we know?. :-)

    1. Silverspeeder profile image59
      Silverspeederposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Ah the eternal question, did God create man or did man create God.

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        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        No mate my question is: IF god exists, "could" he show himself?

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          God can allegedly do anything, but his best attribute appears to be his ability to play hide and seek.

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            Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            If he did exist he'd have to hide, "any" idiot could see that!lol....We're not all "bible bashers" you know buddy, some of us have experienced something that we can't explain, OR just write off.....Iv'e tried writing off my experiences but i can't, & i wonder why you keep repeating the same old crap....Dismissing the possibility of a creator, & that "i'm" deluding myself....I mean "IF" i'm (in your opinion mad), what do you hope to achieve by all your negative comments.....Do you somehow expect to convert "me", (a deluded mad man), to believing what "you've" read in a book, or watched on utube!lol.....No mate why don't you go on the Evolution Threads where you will be happy, i mean i wouldn't have the cheek to go on an Evolution Thread, & start trying to "convert" peoples beliefs.....So if you reply to this, in your opinion your replying to a "mad man"!lol

    2. Dr Lamb profile image61
      Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Stop right there. Think. You are attempting to create your universe where a God created the entire universe with it's billions of galaxies and stars and planets and put us on the outer edge of one of those galaxies, but first waited almost 14 billion years for us to get here and then simply wanted to test us to see if we would pick his way over another's way. Don't you think that sounds a little egotistical to have all of this for humans?

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        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Well if the universe is 13.8 billion years old Dr Lamb, how can it be 92 billion light years in diameter?.....Also how do you get "something" out of "nothing", unless of course you redefine "nothing".....Where did the Laws of Physics come from, or Quantum Physics in a universe that didn't have any dimension....Why is there a Law of Gravity or Thermodynamics?, who or what put these laws into place?....That's just a couple of things you can clear up for me please, then we'l crack on with evolution!lol :-)

        1. Dr Lamb profile image61
          Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Deflect much?

          It's my understanding we don't know how big the universe is because we can only see 13.8 billion years back or away.

          It's my understanding that the singularity was not nothing, but everything compressed.

          The laws of Physics, Quantum Physics, gravity and thermodynamics came from the study of the universe.

          Now you can answer my question about the arrogance of believers to think this entire universe is just for us? Focus.

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            Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I can't answer your question Dr Lamb, because i'm not a believer as you keep trying to insinuate....I'm still gathering information of my own, before i realize either way....I mean i don't know how many times i used the word "if", but i know i used it a lot!lol :-)

            1. Dr Lamb profile image61
              Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Sure I did.





              So you demand I answer your questions that I had already done, tell me I have a swollen ego and then when left with answering one question claim you have no opinion at all. Seems like a lot of attitude for someone without a point of view.
              Can we get onto that evolution thing now that I answered your question or are you going to deflect some more?

    3. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I agree. If a "Creator" were to show him/herself to the world (?) what would happen to "Free Will"?
      And ;  if this were a "Test" and we knew it was a test (?) as you say, all value of the results would be lost.  OR ...  if this life is something like the old T.V. program, "Fantasy Island"; knowing it was just a fantasy would rob the event of the excitement that would have been obtained.

      I do believe that if there is A creator, it would be detrimental to the purpose, whatever that purpose is.
      This is a very good question for anyone with an inquiring mind.   Why would a creator want to show himself (to the population at large) at this point in time.

      1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
        EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Free will is a meaningless phrase, especially considering evolution is a fact. There is no evidence for creators, so there is only one way for anyone to know God exists and that is for God to show Himself to everyone.

        And, that would be a very good thing, it would stop all the fighting and wars and atrocities committed in Gods name. There would be world wide peace. Is that not what you want?

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Won't argue the statement "  especially considering evolution is a fact".  It does't matter what is, or will be; science can reverse engineer it back to its origin, or close to it?  There ia a limit to just how far we can go.  We can reverse engineer a plant, what makes it grow?  Dirt and nutrients which are in it right? Can we make dirt. Yes! But can we make the stuff that made the dirt?  You might say no and you might say yes. But can you make the stuff that makes the stuff we use to make dirt?

              So there is no final answer!  I don't think so.

          1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
            EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            That isn't true, we keep finding more evidence every day and keep going back further and further. It is a defeatist attitude to say there are limits.

             

            Are you not aware of what makes plants grow? Do you need a link to a site so you can find out?

             

            Sorry, but what does making dirt have to do with anything? That is a process that takes millions of years and is done quite naturally.

               

            Isn't your final answer "God did it"?

            Why should there be a final answer? What does that have to do with anything?

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              That isn't true, we keep finding more evidence every day and keep going back further and further.

              ============
              me      ....  if, as you say; science can still keep going back farther and farther;  they haven't found the end yet?
              For every answer which is discovered, another question comes with it. That is how scientific discovery works, didn't you know?
              ==============

              Why should there be a final answer? What does that have to do with anything?
              ago
              ======
              me  ,,,    Surely you jest ???    If you don't know   it   by now you will never, never know    it.

              1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                So what? The problem has been with religion and how it has suppressed science throughout history, we would know a great deal more if that didn't happen. Blame religion.



                Uh yeah, I know how science works. What is your point?



                I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you?

        2. HowardBThiname profile image89
          HowardBThinameposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, evolution is a "theory." That's why it's called the Theory of Evolution. We do hold it to be true as of this time - as we are able to observe some evolutionary progress in species. But, to say it is a fact, is to say that science can go no further.

          And science surely can.

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          Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jerami & Howard....You 2 strike me as the type of people, that might come up with some really good ideas about life, & if it has a purpose etc, because your still looking for the "evidence" like i am....However Encephaloidead you sound brainwashed to me, your stuck on just evolution when it hasn't been proven.....You should take the Zen way, the middle way....You can believe in Evolution, but should still be open to "other" possibilities....I mean there's equally as revered scientists out there, that would tell you that we're living in the Matrix!lol.....He reckons he's explained the twin slit experiment, but even madder than that.....There's some worldly renowned highly respected scientists, that would tell you we can go to another dimension while we're here, & actually interact with "entities" of some kind.....Watch Terrence Mackennas vids about DMT trips, & it will blow your mind mate.....ALL i'm trying to say buddy is what if science is wrong about evolution, your'd have been wasting your time on it when you could be researching other ideas etc.....

          1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
            EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, brainwashed by facts. lol



            Like the possibilities folks who have no idea what they're talking about dreamt up from their overactive imaginations?



            Darwin wasn't wrong, evolution is a fact and he knew it, despite the fact he also knew the Church would have conniptions about it, which they did until a few decades ago when they finally accepted it as fact, too.

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              Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Darwin himself had "BIG" doubts about evolution, also even he couldn't see how an "eye" could just evolve.....I tell you mate your just on here for an "ego" boost, to see if you can "out do" everyone.....You never answered my original question at all, & all you've done is spout on about evolution......I originally said "IF" god exists, he "couldn't" show himself/herself, "NOT", i that i believe in god!lol

              1. Dr Lamb profile image61
                Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Perhaps you should have continued reading that chapter about the eye.

      2. Dr Lamb profile image61
        Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        For us to properly decide which path to take shouldn't we be given all the necessary information?

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          Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Information is out there Dr Lamb it's all out there, also every thing we ever wanted is out there already....Also every thing that's ever been invented, or going to be invented is already out there ready to be discovered....I mean Evolution could only ever be disproved, it can't ever be proven....I reckon people like Martin Luther King knew there was a loving Creator, only because they "felt" a presence....They maybe knew that that creator can only be "felt" by an individual, so they laid down their lives to save others....Not for a reward like heaven etc, they did it not knowing what would happen to them.....But i reckon they "felt" a presence of some kind, knew they was doing the right thing....So they gambled with their own lives, because they felt they had to.

          1. Dr Lamb profile image61
            Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            What does all that have to do with my question? Try to stay focused.

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              Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Ask me a specific question then Dr Lamb, & as a none believer who is starting to feel something i'll answer honestly.....To be honest it's hard to stay focused on here, as you won't have a bash at my original question....You keep trying to distract me from it, by assuming i'm mentally retarded or deluding myself, & i feel that from your replies. :-)

              1. Dr Lamb profile image61
                Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I just did ask you a specific question

                "Now you can answer my question about the arrogance of believers to think this entire universe is just for us?"

                You refused to answer it and at one point claimed I have a swollen ego. Please explain to me why it takes a swollen ego to believe we are just another animal on the lonely planet on the outer edge of one of billions of galaxies and people who claim that all of this was created only for us have a perfectly balanced ego?

                BTW, I assume everyone here is much smarter than I unless I have reason to see otherwise. I have no reason to see otherwise with you. However attacking others egos will get a response similar to mine.

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                  Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I already answered your comment on another post Dr Lamb, if you want to know about the arrogance of believers to think this entire bla bla bla whatever, go & ask them....I'm not one of them, & i asked a "hypothetical" question, & everything i say has happened to me has happened to me....Whether your ego likes it or not, they did happen.....You do have an ego Dr Lamb otherwise you'd be on an evolution thread, not on here trying to convince me i'm mental....I never have been, & what's more never will be religious....I would like you to post something on here that can prove 100% evolution from one species to another......Not evolution within species, but from one species to another....Then i'll read it, & give you my honest opinion. :-)

                  1. Dr Lamb profile image61
                    Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I take you would not except any of the fossil records, would you except evolution if I showed you animals currently in that transition from one species to another?

      3. A Thousand Words profile image79
        A Thousand Wordsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Why not? Only an assumption is made that everyone would do right if we all knew He was real. People know they have parents. They still do things contrary to what they ask of them.If anything the idea of eternal punishment is what really stops "free will" in its tracks. That and the fact that we can't will our own selves into existence.

        1. Dr Lamb profile image61
          Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          For us to truly be tested we would have to have no knowledge of any Gods at all. Some say we have the free will to decide between eternal hell fire or heaven. Hardly free will. Mush like the mafia offering to not break both your legs for their protection against themselves.

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            Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I agree Dr Lamb, & i have no interest in any of our known gods at all....As far as anything resembling religion, all iv'e looked into is Zen Buddhism....Anyway from what i got from that, & philosophy etc, i take the middle way as far as what i believe....I don't believe in heaven & hell (how could i?), & according to the yin/yang there couldn't be either of them existing separate from one another.....I do believe in free will as a real "thing" (for want of a better word), & i do see that as part of some sort of test....As iv'e tried to build up my free will, & tried turning it into will power iv'e seen things, & had visual effects etc.....I haven't been able to keep this up for long as it is hard work, & all through this i haven't read a single line of religious stuff at all....I have done a lot of meditating at home, & out & about....1 year ago i would have laughed at anyone who meditated, & now i do it everyday.....I just don't buy into humans evolving from a different species, & even if a scientist reckons they can prove it, i'd still have to do the experiments myself before i could ever realize it.....We all have the free will to choose between doing the right thing (for our selves & others), or doing the wrong thing (for our selves & others)....What's more is it's a lot harder to do the right thing, than it is to do the wrong thing.....But what makes me really laugh is doing the right thing always pays off, but people mostly choose the wrong things....Now why is that?, some sort of test i reckon.....Mad or what?lol....Did scientists ever manage to get something out of nothing?, or is the very idea meaningless?.....Unless of course they change the meaning of the word nothing, to mean nothing/something?, yin/yang?lol :-)

            1. Dr Lamb profile image61
              Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Yes they have manage to get something out of nothing. They have managed to make things adapt to things that were different and couldn't survive in the same environment and I can show you species in transition from one species to another. If you are not held back by religion why not study it yourself?

          2. Castlepaloma profile image23
            Castlepalomaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            oh, Dr. lamb
            Lol

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          Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          It's a good point you make buddy, but what would you do if there was god & he did appear?.....I don't think god could come here at all in any capacity, maybe he can only come through us....I think "free will" is when you choose good as opposed to bad, i think that's how you can say if you have free will....So maybe the more times we choose good, the more free will we build up, which then turns into "will power"....The fact that we "can" will ourselves into existence, & have & live in any reality/universe we like, seems to be more of a clue to me, than us just evolving like that. :-)

    4. EncephaloiDead profile image60
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no evidence whatsoever for any creators, there is only evidence for evolution. We can entertain any other ideas we want, but if they have no evidence, what is the point of pursuing them?

      1. Phyllis Doyle profile image94
        Phyllis Doyleposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Can you explain to me what the "evidence for evolution" is?

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Have you not done the research? Have you not spent the time to learn about evolution?

          Why would you expect anyone here to educate you if you haven't done so yourself?

          Here's how it works. This is a discussion forum, not a school or university. The idea behind discussion forums is for everyone involved to educate themselves on whatever is being discussed. If you want to contribute, then you have to understand what everyone is talking about.

          Asking that question only shows you have not prepared for the discussion.

          There are mountains of evidence for evolution if you wish to learn about it. It's not likely anyone is going to spend the time to educate you, that is something you have to do for yourself. smile

          1. Phyllis Doyle profile image94
            Phyllis Doyleposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            You do not need to scold me. I only would like for those who keep saying there is evidence of evolution to show me what they think is the evidence. I never hear ones who believe in evolution actually say why they believe. Is it a belief system, or did you actually see some evidence that told that evolution is true?

            You do not need to bypass the question to explain me about forums -- I did not ask about how to be part of a forum, or how to get involved in discussions, or how to educate myself. I have studied evolution and see no "evidence" no "facts", only theories and speculations.

            If I was not prepared for a discussion, I would not be here. I would like someone to explain to me why they believe in evolution -- is it only because they like to debate, is it because so many believe in evolution and it is a popular thing to debate on it, or is it because you have some facts, some proof to show?

            Now -- allow me to educate you about forums. One does not assume and criticize others due to an assumption that you know why others are here. One does not push aside the question by asking several questions. One who has solid evidence will explain where they are coming from. I asked a simple question and deserve a simple answer. I did not ask for a debate or scolding.  smile

            1. Dr Lamb profile image61
              Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              So you haven't seen these yet?


              http://s2.hubimg.com/u/8725349_f248.jpg


              http://s2.hubimg.com/u/8725357_f248.jpg

              1. Phyllis Doyle profile image94
                Phyllis Doyleposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                And what does that prove? What does that tell you? That someone can line up skulls of different species and say "Aha! Proof of evolution!"

                1. Dr Lamb profile image61
                  Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Right, you are not willing to look at how and where that evidence was found.

                  1. Paul Wingert profile image81
                    Paul Wingertposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    It's called mental laziness. If one wants to lean about evolution, the process of performing DNA, carbon 14 dating, along with the credible evidence to support it, plus the scientists that made those discoveries and their credentials is all info that's readily available. But I guess it's easier to ask stupid questions.

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                    Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Did hunter gatherers living in caves around 12,000 years ago, really build the pyramids & the Sphinx Dr Lamb?....I mean come on now, we'd struggle to build them today....2 million blocks of stone, some weighing up to 80 tonnes, & some quarried from 500 miles away, & there lined up to the stars with perfect precision!.....Also what about the Gobelki Tepe in Turkey, a massive Temple complex with sophisticated sculptures etc estimated at 11'500 years old.....Much earlier than the Egyptian, or Mesopotamian civilizations.....So how did science get their dates so wrong?, we're we living in caves 12,000 years ago hunter gathering?,or building amazing structures for some reason?.....Scientists jump to a lot of conclusions just to make a name for themselves, & get funding....A LOT of funding!.....Billions in funding!lol....I'm not slagging science off, but lets stick to the proven facts...No more theories.until they can actually prove something...Evolution isn't a proven fact, & there's certainly no "mountain" of evidence like you suggest.....If anything there's a mountain of theories that have since been disproved, & it seems as if science has already made it's mind up about the results before they started.

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              No one is scolding you, I am only explaining to you that is how it works on discussion forums, we aren't here to teach, but instead, to discuss.



              Of course not, people understand evolution so they don't need to believe in it. Beliefs are for religions, not science.



              No, it is not a belief and there are mountains of evidence that show evolution to be a fact.



              Sorry, but you can't fool people who actually understand evolution into believing you understand it. It's obvious to anyone you don't.



              Again, you make my point that you don't understand it. I would highly recommend taking the time to do so.

              1. Phyllis Doyle profile image94
                Phyllis Doyleposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Again, you do not get the point. I am not asking to be educated or taught about forums and discussions.

                You still have not provided information as to why you believe in evolution -- and you do believe in it but show no facts. You just keep avoiding the question.  Do you say evolution is true because you believe Darwin was right?  Do you believe that 'the process of natural selection' is true? Do you believe if species are to survive they must evolve? What if a species did not survive because another species only annihilated it, or the species actually could not survive where it 'appeared' in nature.

                Do you honestly understand evolution? Tell me why?

                1. Phyllis Doyle profile image94
                  Phyllis Doyleposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  PS: you do not have a point. I understand the "theory" of evolution. I just disagree that humans evolved from apes.  We are not  primates, as apes and chimpanzees are, we are not the same species. We did not evolve from apes. Are there other species of humans? No.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, but it's so very obvious you don't understand evolution. Please take the time to familiarize yourself so you can contribute intelligently to the discussion.

    5. 0
      Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      God does reveal Himself in many different ways.  People choose to ignore Him.  And we don't know just how old the universe really is, do we?

      1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
        EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Such as?



        That's not true, if God revealed himself, no one would ignore it, especially scientists.



        Sure, we do. Didn't you know that?

        1. Paul Wingert profile image81
          Paul Wingertposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Name one way that God shows itself.

          1. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Through the perfection of nature.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry, we already know that's not true. Evolution shows itself in nature.

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, evolution shows itself through nature.

                That's pretty self evident.

              2. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Are you sure nature isn't perfect? Physical laws wouldn't work if they didn't work together perfectly. Most likely nothing would even exist.

                1. Paul Wingert profile image81
                  Paul Wingertposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  If nature, or better yet, the universe is perfect, we wouldn't exist according to physical law.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Why do you say that?

                2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Who said anything about nature being perfect?



                  Where do you get the notion the physical laws "work together perfectly", that is a meaningless statement?

                  Our universe formed to be what it is today as a result of the physical laws. If the laws were different, so would be the universe.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I did.

                    Exactly. You proved my point.

          2. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            http://garyosborn.moonfruit.com/#/sacre … 4570375393

            Only one of the many ways God shows his perfection of creation.

            1. Paul Wingert profile image81
              Paul Wingertposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              If God's creation was perfect, there would be no need for evolution.

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Unless the whole point is evolution.

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  The point of God's perfect creation is to evolve imperfect animals that occupy that perfect creation?  A paradox, it would seem.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    An act of creation. Start something out as a seed, let it grow to it's full potential. Everything is "imperfect" along the way while it's growing.

                    We ourselves create other beings, knowing they will have to go through the crap of puberty, the horrible pain of giving birth, and other unpleasant things as they are growing up.

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          Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Hey EncephaloiDead my idea was that god can't reveal himself, not if we're put here for a reason....Like you just said if he did, "no one" would ignore him..It would be "Game Over", wouldn't you agree?.

          1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
            EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            And, why is that? Explain.

    6. savvydating profile image85
      savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Dave36, You may enjoy the book, A Case For a Creator, by Lee Strobel. I will also include the link for the video:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDy0vnP7VMQ
      The author, who is an award winning investigative journalists, interviews some of the best scholars of our time, who provide scientific evidence in the fields of molecular biology, astronomy, physics, cosmology, paleontology, and genetics in determining a case for a Creator. I have not seen the video as my computer is "acting up,' but I have read other material from Lee Strobel and I have found his investigations quite interesting and useful.
      And yes, there is a lot more of life going on than what we know. Even the  intelligentsia only know approximately 10% of all there is to know. Keep in mind that they also live in a world of ideas and have little, if any, respect for mundane knowledge. That is why I appreciate Strobels books. Although he interviews scholars, they do have respect for mundane knowledge and are not a part of the intelligentsia per se, as their knowledge is quite practical. After all, it takes a lot of mundane digging to be an paleontologist, archeologist, etc. In other words, these men do not live in a world of ideas; they are, in fact, quite grounded.
      You will find that most atheists here will generally refuse to give reasons for their beliefs, except to say that what they believe is already fact--whether or not it is, which is why I suppose they feel entitled to make sweeping generalizations about their knowledge, under the guise of reason. If we could rely on reason alone, then Karl Marx would not have been so disastrously wrong, though most of his believers, who are psuedo intellectuals, still believe otherwise (despite the fact that communism has failed to respect the individual and has lumped everyone together as one swell mass... unless you're the guy on top, of course).
      Anyway, your question is about creationism, not intellectuals or Marxism. Nevertheless, I believe you already know quite well that reason does not always equal knowledge, unless it is also grounded in mundane knowledge. For example, a so-called intellectual can reason why his toilet has overflowed, but he won't know how to fix it. For that, you'd have to call a plumber.
      Also, I believe there is a world of spirit that defies reason; it involves the heart, though again, the heart seems to defy reason. Interestingly, the heart is part of creation, and it insists on acting like it is not merely a thing that pumps blood. It seems to feel. But still, we know little about why the world is, as our knowledge is limited, though in our arrogance, we act as if we know everything, even though science keeps changing and "advancing."  According to the Old and New Testaments, God remains the same. Best of luck to you in your search for knowledge and truth.

      1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
        EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        lol Sorry, but Strobel has done no such thing. He pretends to be a skeptic but is a dishonest Christian apologetic, his books have been easily refuted by a number of scholars.



        And, how is possible they arrived at 10% if they don't know all there is to know?



        That's because atheists don't hold beliefs.



        Sorry, but communism and reason are two completely different things.



        And yet, that is all the heart does, it pumps blood. A "world of spirit" has never been shown to exist.



        No, we don't claim or act as if we know everything. Yes, science is advancing, that's how it works.

        1. savvydating profile image85
          savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Another generalization about Strobel, which is false. That is not to say atheist do not refute him--after all, that is what they do.

          What I am saying is that there is more mundane knowledge in the world, than specialized knowledge. The intelligentsia make up about 1% of the population, and to all extents and purposes, they are not practical, having chosen to specialize in a world of ideas.

          Karl Marx did use reason to create his ideal society, which failed horribly.

          One cannot debate spirit. One senses it, or chooses to ignore it.

          Of course we do not know everything. That's the point.

          1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
            EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Who said anything about atheists, other Christians have refuted him.



            What does that supposed to mean? Knowledge is knowledge.



            Is that some sort of conspiracy theory?



            Karl Marx never created a society, he co-wrote The Communist Manifesto (1848) and Das Kapital (1867–1894) with Engels.



            Sorry, but "spirit" has never been shown to exist, so there's nothing to sense, choose or ignore. Unless, of course, you can show us this so-called "spirit"? Can you?

            1. savvydating profile image85
              savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Strobel merely records what these scholars have learned. If he is refuted, then so are the scholars. He is not refuted by those who maintain accepted standards of criterion for establishing evidence.

              I do not deal with conspiricies; they are nonsensical. What I said is that there is specialized knowledge, which may or may not be based upon personal prejudices or impartiality, as In Karl Marx's Manifesto, which was  "specialized knowledge, based upon his "reason." The Manifesto failed to produce the ideal society it promised, based upon reason alone. Mundane knowledge, if you'd like another example, is found in the world of engineers, who must maintain high criterion/standards for building bridges. The engineer is not allowed to ignore those standards in favor of his ideals. He would lose his job and end up risking people's lives. But in the world of the intelligentsia, standard tend to go by the wayside. "Reasonable knowledge" is used to justify their beliefs, even if it means ignoring facts or commonplace standards in the interest of their ideals. That is what Karl Marx's Manifesto did.

              As for spirit, that is something that cannot be argued. It isn't for me to prove spirit anymore than you can prove that God does not exist.
              But when I think of spirit, I think of why we feel love, or sorrow, or awe... or any feeling. These feelings often defy logic. They are often "unreasonable."  Feelings cannot be measured by science, yet they exist nonetheless. Consequently, they defy reason.
              Reason has it's place, but it does not trump all, answer all, or communicate all.

              1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry, but Strobel is doing no such thing.



                I think you just made that stuff up.



                Not true:

                " It presents an analytical approach to the class struggle (historical and present) and the problems of capitalism, rather than a prediction of communism's potential future forms."

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto



                Again, I think you're just making stuff up.



                Actually, it is up to you to prove spirit exists, because you are the one claiming it exists. The burden of proof lies on the claimant.



                So, spirit = feelings. Why bother calling something another name? Just call them feelings or emotions.



                Actually, it does quite well with most things.

                1. savvydating profile image85
                  savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Not true E.D., Strobel is not an award winning journalist because "he makes things up," nor do I. I don't even know what you are referring to, but if it's about Strobel, then I can also relay that he was an atheist who was highly contemptuous of Christianity. Nevertheless, he went about investigating God, Christianity, etc. with no intention whatsoever of changing his mind; he liked his worldly life just fine. But the evidence compelled him to change his belief.

                  As for feelings, they cannot be measured in a scientific lab; nor can spirit.

                  And as for proof, there is plenty out there. Scholars, archeologist, paleontologists have provided evidence. But me personally, I do not have to prove anything to unbelievers. It is up to them to seek the proof and evidence which already exists from experts who respect standards for scholarship, referred to as the "criteria for authenticity." Most peer review publications are solid, but any garbage can and is printed. Each individual layperson must hold themselves to high standards when doing their research if they are to understand what they are reading.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Strobel's awards are from the Christian Book Awards, the ECPA. He wrote a book called, "Proof of Jesus" which obviously was made up because there is no proof of Jesus.



                    No, he claimed to be an atheist, just like so many other Christians who claimed to be atheists, but never were. It's just more dishonesty on his part.



                    Sorry, he made stuff up, there was no evidence.



                    Yes, they can. Here's just one example:

                    http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~tsailab/



                    No, they haven't. There is something called "Biblical Archeology" which studies archeological sites that connect to biblical texts, but unfortunately all the ever find are fakes and forgeries.



                    Sorry, but there is no proof or evidence, which is why experts haven't found any and why unbelievers do not believe. It is not up to us to seek anything, it is up to believers to show evidence, but unfortunately for them, they have none to show.

      2. 0
        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Hey savvydating i like what you was saying about the heart, & how we can feel through our hearts....I would like to say that i haven't been "looking", for any particular "conclusive" answers....All i did about 8 months ago was start meditating, & try to clear my negative mind.....Anyway what i discovered is that i actually create, all of my feelings & emotions myself....This can be proved to anyone who's not in full control of their own mind, for example if they sit there & think of something sad from their past they'l feel sad emotions....So i can sit here & if i wanted to, i could make myself feel happy or sad just using my mind....I don't think we can have a feeling of any kind, whilst in a meditative state, so my feelings/emotions arise in my mind....What i can't manifest in my mind though, is a feeling of love....I think that there has to be another party there with me at the time, for me to experience the feeling of love....From what's actually happened to me in the last 8 months, i reckon there is some sort of loving infinite energy all around us....Iv'e experienced 3 separate visual effects like nothing iv'e seen before, also 2 coincidental meetings with 3rd parties, that i know for a fact i created somehow with my intentions....Also whilst meditating i experienced a none existent moment twice, i say moment but iv'e no idea how long they lasted....All i would say was at those 2 times, all i was doing was looking into blackness, but the blackness did have depth....I wasn't thinking or feeling at the time, & i knew everything in the universe had vanished, but i "did" know i was looking at the time....It's sounds mad i know but all i knew at the time was "I" was looking, but obviously not me (Dave36) the "real" "i"....Also i once half rolled out of my body one night whilst meditating, & my little sister earlier on this year completely rolled out, & then hovered above her body....She's not been looking into anything at all & it has scared her a lot, but i do know it happened to her from how she explained it to me.....She doesn't however believe that i believe her on what happened to her, as she thinks it's too far fetched, & even though she can't, she's trying to write it off as imagined....People on here might laugh at me for saying this, but i know for a fact i could have an OBE any night i wanted too, i just daren't let myself go at the time.....Sometimes i even have to stop them when i'm not even trying, just as if that loving energy i think "might" exist, is trying to show me something....So going back to the subject of the heart i know i feel mine a lot more now, than before i started getting control of my mind....It's like i'm tuning into it more, & it can guide me if i let it.....So if pushed i'd say there probably is a creator, & we also already live in the multi verse....Only because of first hand evidence, from real things that happened to me that can not be explained.....I tell you honestly 1 year ago i'd have probably laughed at the idea of meditating, but now i can't believe how amazing it is....I don't just meditate at home though, i also meditate whilst walking about etc....It's like the more i stop thinking about doing things, the more i'm being drawn by my intuition/instinct.....To get anywhere continuously with this method, one would have to get on top of everything in their lives, & stay on top of it.....So for me it requires a lot of effort, & i certainly haven't brainwashed myself into thinking this way. :-)

        1. savvydating profile image85
          savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Dave36, I don't meditate much, unless it's a walking meditation. Mostly, I lack discipline in that area. However, my son meditates fom time to time. He had one out of body experience that I know of. In his case, he traveled somewhere in his spirit, I suppose... but ran into some "unsavory" characters, so he made his way back to his physical body, post haste! Lol.
          Anyway, my point is that there is so much that we do not understand about spiritual matters. Maybe one day, science will have answers...

          At any rate, what I really want to say is that I believe there is no question that our thoughts are very powerful, as is our intuition. Furthermore, our intuition becomes much better and certainly more useful once it has been honed through practical experience.
          As an aside, my form of spirituality is quite practical. Personally, I find Christianity to be practical as all  get-out. But what I appreciate about it is that it is indeed grounded in historical fact, more so than any other religion that I am aware of. If it were not, I would have lost interetst in it.
          But getting back to meditation, I think that when we meditate, we can gain more clarity and thus be more aware of "signals" around us which provide needed information. I am happy that this endeavor is working for you. The only thing I would add is to call upon the Creator or the Holy Spirit to guide you and protect you. That way, you can avoid getting wrong signals. Now you may laugh, but I do believe that when dealing with esoteric matters, good and bad (spirits) can and do spill out together. In calling upon protection, you have made a choice to be guided safely, and to keep the bad at bay. wink

          1. Dr Lamb profile image61
            Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            What facts are you referring to? The world wide flood of 4000 years ago that we have no evidence for? The 6000 year old universe?

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Do you know how many Hebrew words was translated  earth.
              The "EARTH" flooding should be seen as in regards as EZRA 1:2
              "The Lord God of heaven gave Cyrus all of the kingdoms of the "EARTH"
              When Cyrus used that word which was translated EARTH he was not deferring to the whole planet and neither was the word translated EARTH when talking about the flood.

              Many Atheist when Christian bashing; ask the, why do they believe a book which was translated so many times and yet they base most of their arguments upon those same mistranslated texts.
              As far as the 6000 year old earth....  All that the bible actually says is that the genealogy of Adam only goes back 6000 years.   The bible states that God created Adam. It doesn't say that Adam was the only person God created in this manner.   
                Sometimes when we attempt to intellectualize we read things into what we are reading that in truth was not stated.

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            Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Hey savvydating i love talking to people like you, but it's hard commenting back on here as i have to keep scrawling up to read what you wrote!lol.....I think some people might have miss understood, "why" i'm now strongly leaning towards there being a creator of some kind....I'm the most logical minded person you could meet, i worked all over the world for 20 years etc....I keep fit & workout everyday, i'm not rich but i am content at where i'm heading....So when i write stuff about what's actually really happened to me when iv'e been in a totally conscious state of awareness, i know it's gonna sound really strange, & people will automatically assume that i'm mentally retarded, or depressed, or attention seeking etc etc.....But honestly from what's happened to me etc, there can only be "one" possibility, & that's that there is a creator of some kind, and we can actually receive info from that creator.....Again another totally mad thing to say,and i know i'll get slated for saying it.....BUT, that's the only logical explanation iv'e come up with....What's more is that the 2 "coincidences" that happened to me in 1 week, we're just too obvious & far fetched for my mind to accept.....So even though i know that they happened, my mind still can't except what it actually means......It's really confused me to be honest, but at the same time i feel no urgency to start becoming religious....The mindful meditating whilst walking about, was exactly what i was doing when i saw 2 of the 3 visual effects.....On the subject of OBE's, which i knew nothing about until it nearly happened to me.....Imagine if you was sat in a chair relaxed, & then you went to get up.....Then imagine feeling your body get up, BUT at the same time feeling your body still sat there.....So you feel the "heaviness" of your body (the one sat there), but at the same time you feel the lightness of your "other" body (the one getting up)....So when i had mine i was laid down meditating, i went to get up & my top half of my body left my body, (if that makes sense).....I felt my body leaving itself & become light, but it scared me & i tensed up & went back into my body......I was awake meditating, & defo not asleep....I'd love to here what your son would say to my description of mine, :-)

            1. janesix profile image61
              janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Not everyone thinks these things are strange:)

              Lot's of interesting things can happen through meditation. I personally thinks it opens your mind, to intuition, a new sort of consciousness, even God. Who knows? It's hard to tell. But something is certainly going on.

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                Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Yes mate that's exactly what iv'e been thinking, there's definitely something that "no one" has told us.....The mind since iv'e been looking into mine, is a pretty amazing thing.....Your right about lots of "interesting" things happening whilst meditating, although i'd say that's the biggest understatement ever!lol....The things that's happened to me whilst meditating, are (as the great Joe Rogan would say): "UBBER BIZARRE" to say the least. :-)

                1. janesix profile image61
                  janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, I was definitely understating that:)

                  Uber bizarre is pretty apt.

                  1. 0
                    Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey janesix i think your'd love Joe Rogans vids on the "sensory deprivation tank", have a look on utube mate.....In fact i'd recommend his Podcasts as well, that guy is a living legend in my opinion.....The things he discusses about life, & the guests he has on his shows are amazing, really inspiring people.....Another guy i'd highly recommend watching is Alan Watts, he was one of the most revered Philosophers in the 20th century....Between those two peoples vids there's a wealth of info, & fascinating views & ideas....,Also i bet if you watched Terrence Mackennas vids on DMT, & meeting entities in another dimension, your'l be like........."WOW"!. :-)

            2. savvydating profile image85
              savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I'll ask my son, Dave36. But I know what you mean. These "illogical" things happen. They just do. People report having NDE's, seeing auras, sensing when things are going to happen before they happen. And of course, just the fact the universe, our bodies and brains are so complex and masterfully made. It makes one wonder about a Creator. Frankly, I'm analytically minded, too... which is why I spend so much time researching the evidence for Christ, as opposed to just believing without evidence.
              That being said, as of yet there is no logical explanation for spiritual events. Not at this juncture, anyway. Consequently, I think that having spiritual awareness or a somewhat open mind that God may exist is a less narrow view than dismissing him out of hand because we don't "see" Him. I mean--spiritual stuff happens. We may as well enjoy it. The thing you experienced--some call it synchronicity.

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                Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Hey i appreciate your time savvydating, & i'll read up on synchronicity as i don't think iv'e heard of it....I'll be totally honest with you i was becoming a compulsive thinker, over analyzer etc, & all through my life iv'e wondered about life....I'm well traveled & met many different nationalities/cultures etc through working abroad a lot....Anyway iv'e worked hard in the last 6/7/8 months, to gain control of my mind/feelings & emotions....Also iv'e done a lot of meditating, at home & out & about.....I'm aware of exactly when my feelings arise, & i have control of them 90% of the time, so i can feel them but also let them go fairly quickly, i don't bottle them up i just let them go....What iv'e noticed through all this is i'm now feeling my heart more, & illogical things "have" happened to me, that have almost convinced me of a creator of some kind.......I tell you one thing though mate, one thing iv'e "always" wondered at the same time......Is "why" are they spending 100,s & 100,s & 100,s of billions of quid, "trying desperately" to prove evolution, or what we're made from????, while kids "starve" all over the world!....Maybe "IF" they stopped wasting all that money, & started feeding & clothing every single "good" human being on the planet, maybe God of he does exist will actually turn up & say: "Hey folks GOOD JOB", "i really like what you've done with the place", "your all loving each other", "& it looks like your having such a good time", "that i just had too come down & join the party".....So me & you both think logically, & me & you both know we're not brainwashed.....We don't know the truth yet, but we also know that no one else does either....So if every single person in the whole world, could be right now having a BBQ somewhere, or partying with their family/friends etc, or just playing games/singing/dancing etc, what would be better than that......Planet Earth could just be one big party, but it isn't it's far from it.....But when you really think about life, & how it is today.....It seems a natural progression to what the world has become, because human's can't be trusted, their easily led & tempted....That's why it seems to me like some sort of test, look back in history, & history repeats itself over & over....I think i went off on a bit of a tangent there, but anyway once i was open to all possibilities, i asked through meditation (without using my mind) for some sort of proof of something, i then got the proof.....That when it happened literally blew my mind, so i'm on here looking for a bit of advice. :-)

                1. savvydating profile image85
                  savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi Dave36, I checked in with my son. He loves meditation. But before I get to that, let me say that he had a similar experience as yours (when you left your body). He said that he felt a juxtaposition of heaviness in the body, yet weightlessness. He said that things suddenly seemed so big, and he felt small... that there was so much space. (and he wasn't high. Lol).
                  Actually, he's always been able to "sense" and "see" things which remain quite invisible to me. For example, he sees auras around people-- not all the time, but sometimes. He says the colors are "iridescent," and they remain very close to the body and follow the person everywhere.
                  As for meditation, he has experienced "travel" but he feels it is more important to "be still" and see what God or the Universe has to say. He says he receives promptings or thoughts which lead him, and which work out remarkably. He always calls upon protection, however. We both believe that if there is a spirit realm, not all of it is friendly or well meaning. Thus, he prays to be protected. That would also be my recommendation to you in pursing any esoteric endeavors.
                  As for your Big Party, I think you have a good idea. And shamefully, scientists do lie. The good news is that all professors and scientists know which publications have an A rating (related to peer review). Unfortunately, the everyday layperson does not usually know about this. (I learned about this from my brother who is a published professor) Consequently, we tend to believe the guys who happen to be scientists or professors, who have the loudest voices, and who therefore claim that a consensus has been reached, even though it hasn't. They are also making mega bucks (as you've pointed out) to skew data. There's big money in governments grants.
                  My own personal reason for believing in a Creator is because if we relied only on our own standards for goodness, we'd easily find an excuse to lower them... which is one reason why children are starving. Just look at Syria...
                  I've never been called "mate" before. Lol.

                  1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Wow, you are distorting the truth well beyond any boundaries of honesty. How very sad. It's fine that you want to hold your irrational beliefs, but to say those things about science is quite disingenuous and only shows the depths of dishonesty believers will stoop. Absolutely shameful.

                  2. 0
                    Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey savvydating i believe what your son tells you, although i haven't fully left my body yet, only my top half did....When it nearly happens to me, most of the time i feel an electrical surge come up from my toes....It moves very fast but by the time it gets to my waist, i freak out & tense up to stop it happening....To be honest it still worries me, what i might find out about myself if i manage to let go.....Now i know certain peeps on here will dismiss what i say instantly, but i just wonder if they've EVER tried meditating themselves.....These things start to happen to me when i lay down at night, on my own in a quiet dark room when laid comfortably, & when my mind is clear.....I know for a fact that i'm awake through ALL my experiences, & i'm a logical thinker so i have considered everything.....I know iv'e been shown something, but i haven't got a clue why....Or who shown me, but it's completely obvious to me, that i have been provided with evidence.....Like i say i look at things logically, but logic doesn't even come close to what iv'e experienced, & yet i'm still "not" saying a creator  exists....However, i am leaning strongly that way.....There's kids starving everywhere even in GB & the USA, but there's enough food for every one in the world....We through enough food away in the West, to "easily" feed the rest of the world, & yet even in our country people still starve.....We don't feed the rest of the world, because there "is" evil peeps in the world, & their the one's running it.....By the way "mate" in the UK means a good friend, not a South American Caffeine drink!lol :-)

    7. janesix profile image61
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I think it's a possibility that God may not show himself for a reason, if it's to learn, grow spiritually, etc.

      It's the most likely scenario in my mind.

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        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks janesix like i say i'm not on here to promote anything to anyone, it's just that a number of strange things have happened to me in the last 6/7/8 months....Also i don't believe that science, could explain them to me....It's something to do with our minds i reckon, & getting full control of it.....Also the power of our intentions, & using our instinct/intuition more.

        1. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Same here.

          I've been going through this for three years. Haven't figured it out yet.

          I also believe it has to do with learning how to control our minds, and intuition. I think it is a spiritual process.

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            Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Wow janesix 3 years, i bet you've asked a few questions during that time!lol....Just for a laugh & for what it's worth, i'll give you my opinion.....I reckon that if we can get on top of everything in our lives, & i mean everything....Including our health, bills, debts, in fact "everything" that worries us, or keeps us up at night wondering etc.....So after a lot of work we could eliminate "all" our worries, which "would" eliminate our "ego" mind (negative thoughts).....Also we have to keep using our mind positively to help as many peeps out as we can, without letting it be detrimental to our personal lives, in other words we do what we can......All those good deeds that are done will be done from our heart, bearing in mind our "ego" mind has been almost eliminated....That's when we'l start bumping into the right people in our lives, the one's that help us grow etc....I'm now starting to believe that we can literally be led from our hearts, & iv'e spoken to a few other peeps that think this is true also.....Like you i haven't figured it out yet, but i know there "is" something to be figured out, & it "isn't" anything to do with evolution. :-)

            1. janesix profile image61
              janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Yes. Listen to your heart, and letting it guide you is the most important thing, in my opinion. I think it is God guiding us, but I also think it can be thought of as an innate sense of right and wrong, a tool we are all born with. If people would just listen to their own conscience, the world would be a much better place.

              I think there is much more to it than that though, as you said. It's a choice whether to open ourselves up to it.

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                Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Your spot on with what you say janesix, being guided by our hearts is possible, & is the most important thing to do in life....To explain being led by my heart to someone who hasn't experienced it, would be like trying to explain sadness to someone, who's never had any feelings of any kind....They'd never get in until they had the feeling for themselves, & the reason they won't try it is because it takes a lot of work.....Some people on here think i'm brainwashing myself, when in actual fact iv'e had to work really hard to get where i am physically/mentally/emotionally.....The way i look at "brainwashing" is that we're ALL "brainwashed" through school, university, media etc.....Our mind becomes full of worthless/pointless desires, & worries etc....So if we can get on top of our lives, & eliminate all those pointless/worthless desires/pursuits etc.....Then our heart opens up, to what we're actually here for.....Like i say iv'e been trying to do all iv'e said for 1 year, & things are happening now (albeit slowly)....Sometimes when i'm really going well without any "negative" distractions for say a week or 2, i'll see something so amazing that it's obvious that there is something communicating to me.....However i am a lazy person, & haven't fully committed myself to the challenge yet....I do know that it's my "ego" mind holding me back, but my "ego" mind losing, & my heart is starting to become strong. :-)

                1. janesix profile image61
                  janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm glad you're on the right track:) And it's refreshing to see someone who knows what I'm talking about, even if some of our beliefs aren't the same. I think there are many roads to the same place.

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                    Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I think your right mate, there are many roads to the same place....And i reckon that all we'l ever know at any one time, is whether we're on the right road, or not by how we feel deep down in our hearts.....Not a lot to go on but that's the fun part, we have to find it through feeling what we want, rather than thinking what we want.....I mean if we got every single thing we "thought" we desired when ever we wanted them, where would be the fun in that?. :-)

              2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, I can hear it pumping blood. Fascinating.

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                  Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  "EGO"!haha.....Go on an Evolution thread, & tell your ego to stop boring me!lol

    8. 61
      Marc Lambertposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      God can't be seen by us because the particles that make up my God are too small to be seen and probably always will be, a dimension of  higher vibrational positive energy that has existed since the big bang and makes up our soul and the soul of all life, you can feel it if you try and that will have to be enough for now, check out my hub God is Goodness.

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        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Hey Marc i like what you say, & i'll check out your hub as soon as iv'e typed this....Have you ever had a none thought/material moment whilst meditating, or seen any visual effects etc?....I take it you've seen Terrence Mackenna's vids on DMT, the countless accounts from all over the world, of serious & respected people meeting "entities" in another dimension.....DMT is the most naturally produced, least harmful drug in the world, it's even in our bodies all the time, & yet it's a class A drug!lol.....The Military can & research into it for 60 years, but we're not to touch it!.

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        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I couldn't find your hub buddy, what section is it under?.

  2. amiebutchko profile image92
    amiebutchkoposted 2 years ago

    Of course, I think there is a lot more going on than we know...  And I think our motives to do good must exceed just wanting to please God - I would hope that there is true goodness in us that drives us as well (being in God's likeness which I believe we are).  As far as God showing himself, I think he does all the time all around us...  I guess that is just having faith.  It lights things up where you might not otherwise recognize them...  I see God all around me.  Thanks for this compelling question.

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Presumably you don't mean that you see a god out there somewhere, but rather that you see what it has done - the effects of its actions.

      What is the reasoning used to decide that it was a god that made those things you are looking at?  Is there something more than "Well, I don't understand how it could have happened without a god so will postulate a god and believe in it"?

      1. amiebutchko profile image92
        amiebutchkoposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        No.  I mean that God really does answer my prayers!  I am just being honest.  I SEE God doing things - I see him working everywhere.  You can't SEE the wind, but you feel it, right?  It is there, right?  Just my beliefs.  I guess I am not just talking about the wonder of the universe and all the things we see with our eyes in creation - I am talking about the belief that God works through all of us - we are his hands on earth.  I live this way, I feel when God wants me to do a certain thing (for myself or someone else) and I just do it.  But really, I don't think it was me originating it.. something higher?  And I witness the way others work in my life much the same way.  So, I do see him.  But as Catholics we believe he is a part of us/ we are part of him... so this is how I experience some of his being...

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So what does he look like?  Color, shape, size, etc?  You SEE Him, and the only parts of the human body equipped to SEE are the eyes, so you can determine those things. 

          But wait.  The next sentence is that it is just belief, no seeing, no knowledge and no evidence available.  Just belief, coupled with imagination to fill in the gaps. 

          But wait.  Then you do see him.  And as a Catholic (irrelevant) it is belief, not truth, and that is the experience.  Back to imagination and belief.

          I confess, this post is impossible to follow, as you flip from a statement to the exact opposite, back again, and then reverse it all again  Have you really considered WHAT you see, or are you spouting pretty sounding phrases and then trying to force them into making sense?

          1. amiebutchko profile image92
            amiebutchkoposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I guess we just have a difference of opinion!  I certainly respect your thoughts.  For me, I feel I have evidenced the existence of God.  This is my firm personal position.  Perhaps I am off your intended topic.  Well wishes to all.

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry, but that certainly isn't being honest considering the state of the world and how many prayers never get answered.



          That is highly unlikely, you only imagine such things.



          Yes, the wind is the movement of our atmosphere, which we CAN see with scientific equipment. The wind does indeed exist and the entire planet knows it and agrees. Gods have not been shown to exist.



          Sure, we can say the same thing about Allah, Zeus, Thor or any of other of the thousands of gods.



          No, that's just you. smile

          1. amiebutchko profile image92
            amiebutchkoposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry you feel that my faith is equivalent to imagination.  Again, I respect your opinions and our differences.  Well wishes!

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Since no one can distinguish their faith from their imaginations, there's no need to be sorry about it. That's just the way it is. smile

        3. 0
          Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Hey amiebutchko i bet your going after your prayers though, as opposed to just waiting for them....The people that don't believe our prayers have "already" been answered, are the one's i feel sorry for....I mean even the most "anti" religious person on here, would have to admit that we can have "anything" we want in life....All it requires is a "lot" of "effort" because if we just "received" what we prayed for, there would be no challenge or fun in life or excitement....I reckon "anti" creator people don't realize that once they go "after" their prayers, or rather their "heart felt" desires (not the minds desires), that's when they will start to feel a "presence" in their life, like "nothing" they've felt before.....I say "a lot" of work, but the "hard" part is communicating with our heart, to find out what our heart desires.....The rest is easy, however it takes time maybe even a lifetime.....I reckon it's as we do this, that all the signs/clues "help" from above, or where ever starts coming....I haven't imagined this happening to me (by the way, EncephaloiDead), just the same as i didn't imagine typing this.....However i will check next time i'm on here, just in case!haha......No but seriously amiebutchko i do feel something sometimes, it's taken me months to wrap my head around it, but for me now there "has" to be a creator. :-)

  3. 60
    Llew Dakoposted 2 years ago

    Dave36 you have a lot of questions, which is great. Regardless of what any of us believe we were given brains for several powerful reasons, and one of them is the ability to reason, or ask the question 'why'?
    I also do not believe that we evolved from apes, my question to that has always been, "then why are there still apes?" But when I visit our local museum of natural history and see the skulls, etc from prehistoric man, it raises even more questions. Where do cavemen fit in the big scheme of things? If the God of the bible is real and he created us in his image, exactly what image is that? Of today's human? Of Neandrothal or Cromagnon man? Sorry I can't shed any light on your inquiries, I have more than enough of my own. Fascinating subject though, endless discussion to be had!

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Because, we didn't evolve from apes. Both apes and humans had a common ancestor.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image23
        Castlepalomaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        If God were to show himself, everyone would die, because he is too bright.
        Bright like the Sun,maybe? that's odd, God lives in the dark.

        They got us coming and going with nonsense

    2. 0
      Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I haven't read the bible Llew Dako, & i don't know if i will to be honest....I'm not saying it's true or false or anything, as i wasn't there so i'll "never" know, i do know there is a lot of wisdom in it, & phrases that i do know are truly amazing by any ones standards....I'm hypothesizing at the moment that there is a creator, & before EncephaloiDead starts going on about evolution don't bother buddy.....Anyway Llew i think that if there's a creator, i reckon "no one" has "ever" met that creator, not whilst they've been alive.....Not even Jesus (if he existed), or the Buddha etc etc.....I think they "felt" something, rather than "knew" of a creator....Scientists lie or at least exaggerate all the time, just look at the big bang theory.....How many times are they gonna prove that one, all them years spouting off about black holes, now there saying they probably "don't" exist....I mean what would happen to the real info, if we had corrupt governments/scientists etc hiding something from us?....I'm not saying they are, but what if they was?.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image23
        Castlepalomaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        From basing my life on good sense, the Big Bang theory makes much more sense than 1000's of Gods fighting over which God owns the World or Universe.

        1. 0
          Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Who said anything about 1000's of god's, fighting over which one owns the world!lmao....Religion separates man, & "something" from "nothing", "everything" from "nothing" makes no sense!....Why don't you comment on what i actually posted, rather than coming on here "bashing" the "bible bashers"?lol....Just wondered.

          1. Castlepaloma profile image23
            Castlepalomaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Dave
            I'm for Gods , like everyone can be God. Who is bashing the the God or Gods. I not the one the Jealous problem.

            You were not inviting a 1000 culture or or the evolution belief of 85% of the people of this world also into your post too,  were you not?

            The Yahweh lord seems like a man, because no woman could mess things up this much.

            janesix
            Since both theories can not be soundly proven, you may be right. That would stop most people thinking with their ego first.

        2. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Why does it have to be the Big Bang or God poofing everything into being?

          More likely it is neither, and something else entirely.

  4. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago

    Using conventional punctuation really does help get a message across more clearly.

    1. 0
      Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I wasn't trying to get a message across buddy i asked a hypothetical question, but unfortunately peeps aren't up to it....Their ego's won't let them!lol

      1. savvydating profile image85
        savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Dave 36, How's it going? Looks like everyone here is still going at it...   Anyhow, I saw that there was a comment from  from E. Dead & maybe you a few days ago, but now it isn't there. In any event, I never got a chance to read it, and now it is apparently gone.... so if you did reply I don't know what you (or ED) said. At any rate, I hope all is well with you and that you are enjoying your spiritual adventures.
        I read another comment of yours on izetti's post about love & marriage a day ago or so. You had some great things to say about your girlfriend. I hope the both of you have a Happy Valentines day and everyday, for that matter.  I won't be checking my email much as I no longer have internet service (for a while). Just as well, I need to get back to Word and start writing.  Be well!

  5. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 2 years ago

    Dave, just some further thoughts on why God might not show himself, so I apologize in advance if I ramble on with this:)

    There are two types of people, those who seek an understanding of the universe, and those who don't really care about that.

    The majority are the ones who don't seek an understanding. They either still in the midst of their experience, don't care, or aren't at a stage of growth yet. Either way, whatever the purpose, they are content with the material world and their current existence. These can be either atheists or theists.

    Then there is the smaller group, the ones who are seeking an understanding. They may have tired of this world and are ready to move on, if this world is just a place to have a physical experience. If this place is for the purpose of spiritual growth or a learning experience, then they have reached a stage when they ARE ready to move on or grow further. These can be either theists or atheists as well. A seeker is a seeker.

    When the seeker is ready, they can then tune in to the clues, or the clues are made available to find. They are then able to tap into intuition and begin the process of discovery.

    The earlier growth phase or experience would be ruined if it were blatantly obvious of why we were here. I think this is about what you were trying to get at in the first place. I am just kind of trying to work it out in my mind.

    1. 0
      Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Wow janesix i loved what you wrote, & i'm definitely a seeker, & i know i always have been....Iv'e worked all over the world, & throughout the states....No matter where iv'e been, or what iv'e done iv'e always wondered about life....Iv'e always found myself stood on a balcony somewhere having fun, but then wondering how the locals live, & who they are etc....I mean it makes no sense to me that we just live, work, & then die,  i'm not afraid of dying i just don't think we do die....When you mentioned clues i know exactly what you mean, & i would say iv'e had 7 of them....One of them was a blatant coincidence, that even my mind couldn't write off....My can't actually write any of them off, & that's the problem....Well it's not a problem for me as i'm still trying to tune back into them, as that's what i think we can try to do....Like you said when we're ready we can tune into them, & i reckon it's on;y possible if we're getting on top of our lives....I think as we do more of the things we love, & get rid of negative things in our lives, that frees our minds, & opens our heart....Then we get the signs/clues etc, to lead/guide us to what we're here for....So i have to keep trying to improve my life for the better, & help others along the way....I do however keep getting sucked back into old habits, so it's like Bruce Lee said it's continuous growth....It can't happen over night as what would we do then?, but we can speed it up by trying harder.....Iv'e just read that back, & i think your version was better!lol :-)

  6. lone77star profile image92
    lone77starposted 2 years ago

    Dave36, fascinating topic, but there are many more ways to look at it than you've presented. Only one can be Truth, if any of them.

    I don't claim to know Truth, and I'm certain that I don't, but I've been approaching Truth for the last 60 years. I've learned quite a few things along the way, studying Christianity (Southern Baptist), Scientology, Buddhism, Judaism, Kabbalah, Taoism and Christianity (non-denominational). I've seen dozens of full-blown miracles -- the kind that science will never explain. How do I know? Just read my article on Science and Religion:
    http://thebibleshiddenwisdom.com/scienc … ligion.php

    My current "truth" is that we are children of God, sound asleep, in human bodies. Genesis talks about this. It mentions this dual nature -- immortal spirit wrapped in Homo sapiens flesh. We were created in God's image and likeness, but He is not Homo sapiens. We were also created from the dust of the ground (chemicals), but that is not the image and likeness of God.

    The ultimate purpose for our being here is not a test or some kind of school. This is a rescue mission for immortal spirit or fallen angels (us) who have blinded ourselves with ego. We need to wake up, or as Christ put it, be "born again" of the spirit. I have tasted this on numerous occasions and it's such a "high" that I cannot describe.

    Some people discount miracles saying that it's merely coincidence or chance. But walking on water is no accident. There is no sudden alignment of water molecules to support a person for several kilometers across the Sea of Galilee.

    I experienced one such miracle in 1977 which I describe in "Anatomy of a Miracle" (Rod Martin).

    God shows Himself to those who are worthy. As in any rescue mission, those who ignore the rescuers are not worthy. Those who spit at or attack the rescuers are less than not worthy. God answers all prayers instantly, but most people have so much doubt that all they get back from the Heavenly Father is more reason to continue their doubt. It's instantaneous. But if you want to walk on water, you have to know from your spiritual (true) self that it is possible, but you also have to have utter humility to receive the blessings from God. Without humble confidence, it's as good as no confidence at all.

    1. 0
      Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hey lone77star it's really great to hear your views, & you sound far more knowledgeable than me as far as religions....I haven't personally looked into any religion, although i have looked into Buddhism....I have read a lot on Philosophy, & have seen or read most of Alan Watts work.....I know i haven't been swayed in my opinion on life, & i certainly haven't been brainwashed along the way....(in fact i did disagree with Alan Watts conclusion on life)....Some people on here insist that i'm deluding myself, into believing there's more going on than meets the eye....Whereas i have to keep reminding them that it's only from my personal "first hand" experiences, that have led me to think this way....I haven't read anything or watched anything, that's making me think this way....All i started doing was meditating & emotions/feelings control, & i started about 8 months ago.....As far as knowing the truth i can't see any reason why it would benefit us knowing we do have a creator, not if we're here for some reason.....So if indeed we we're created it would be for a  reason, & knowing that reason would void any purpose.....It is interesting what you say, about a rescue mission for souls that have blinded themselves with their ego....I know for a fact that the ego exists in all of us, & iv'e spent the good part of a year trying to control my ego....My ego mind was all the negative thoughts etc that i thought about others, & myself.....So since i gained control of that my life started to change (gradually), & it's like my instinct/intuition/heart has come into play.....I do know there is something that i need to change about myself deep down, & that's what i see as the test (maybe).....I live in a world now where doing the right thing for me, & others seems to be the hardest thing in the world to do.....I care about the starving kids in Africa etc, but hardly anyone i know gives them a second thought.....So i wonder why that is, & i reckon it's because of the "world wide ego".....I think the ego is in all of our minds, & the ego has the potential to do things that are bad for us....It also does things that are bad for others, but good for us, but at the same time it's all bad for us.....So every time we give in to this ego part of our mind, we then lose a bit of our will power.....So if we give in enough times we lose our free will, & also our will power, & we eventually turn into a bad person in general....On the other hand if we try to fight against our own ego we build will power, & therefore strong free will.....I know which one is the hardest, & it's the fighting our ego that's the hardest.....So i reckon any one who believes in evolution would have to agree, that "IF" life we're a test or whatever,,,,,,it's a blumming good one!lol.....Because i don't think anyone will know the answer, but if there is a creator the one's that are looking, or rather open to receive might be able to "feel" there's a creator, just like i did once.....Peeps will ask me "well, what did he look like"?, or "Prove it"!lol....All i'd say is i felt something energetic like nothing iv'e experienced before, (a new feeling if you like, that i didn't manifest myself), iv'e also seen a few visual effects that i'd never seen or heard about before.....All leading me to believe, that there's something going on that nobody has told me.....I mean i have a good grasp of world politics/the worlds economy/the celebrity culture,(& why it's there), also what the news actually is, how big corporations work, & who actually funds a lot of these scientists......There's more slaves in the world now than there has ever been, so are our governments really there to help us?.....Illegal wars & corrupt government officials, but we're supposed to just take their word on the biggest question there is!lol.....I would agree that all our prayers are already answered, but the hardest part is finding out what our real true prayers are.....I used to desire things in my mind now i try to find things that satisfy my heart/soul, whereas most people i know still want/pray from their minds.....So whether or not someone prays from their heart, or their mind it is already actually out there.....But only one will satisfy the heart/soul or lead to contentment, & that's the prayers from the heart.....IF i had to take a wild guess on life i'd say: We can be led by our heart/good, or our ego mind/bad.....Also in my theory Money = Bad/Evil....Technology = Neutral depending on which side uses it. :-)

      1. 0
        Dave36posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Just on the subject of the bible lone77star, i haven't read it but probably will read it......I know a couple of bits from it, & they are critical bits of info i had to fully understand  as i went along....For example: "Forgive them, they know not what they do", & "Judging others is just judging ourselves".....I really fully completely understand, the deep hidden meaning there....So that helped me a lot with combating my feelings/emotions when it came to myself & others.....Because those two passages or whatever their called, are talking specifically in my opinion about the "ego".....Once i realized the ego exists in everyone, that's when my life got a whole lot simpler/easier to understand....So those are two amazing tips on how to live a happier or more contented life, & was written thousands of years ago.

        1. lone77star profile image92
          lone77starposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry to be so late in response, Dave36. I was busy finishing my book and publishing it. And then I got busy studying Kabbalah from authentic Kabbalists. Wow!

          These guys (Kabbalists) wrote the Bible (first 5 books) in code more than 3000 years ago. Now, that code has been released to the general public.

          I highly recommend checking out the short film at,

          http://perceivingreality.com/

          ...and if it interests you, to take the free Kabbalah training being offered. It's all about altruistic love -- that which will truly heal the world.

 
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