jump to last post 1-4 of 4 discussions (186 posts)

Which one makes more sense to you as an individual?

  1. Ericdierker profile image81
    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago

    Sparklea says:
    I apologize.  In no way would I deliberately insult one's intelligence...I meant no harm at all.
    I totally understand how you feel.  You are right.
    Thanks for the correction.  I appreciate it.

    And the resident Atheist says:
    Thank you, no problem, I understand your religion teaches you those misinformed beliefs, which is why questioning those beliefs is a very good thing as they reveal the real facts.

    For sure the Atheist believes that his words are not condescending and the Christian is apologizing to make piece and the underlying issue was appropriate for debate.

    //// So our question is for forums: Is the response antagonistic on purpose or is it just straight speech?

    My view is that the response is harsh and mean and mean spirited and is an example of what is ruining our world. And ability to be mean but not be called out on it. Is that crazy?

    1. Dr Lamb profile image61
      Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not sure why or how telling someone that they should question things people tell them is ruining the world.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Certainly that is accurate. Questioning things is correct. I assume your response is that you see it as perfectly normal speech. And how we should speak to each other.

      2. Chris Neal profile image83
        Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        It's not the 'what' it's the 'how'.

        1. Dr Lamb profile image61
          Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I didn't say what, I said how.

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Is the proselytizing and teaching by the Christian automatically less offensive than that done by the atheist then?

      My view is that the statement is half false; that there was no appreciation for the correction as there was no belief it was offered as a correction.  It was sarcastic.  And that the response is an effort to train, to teach what is real in this world.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        So wilderness it is your position that the above statement is proselytizing? And forcing a belief on someone?

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I find your atheist's statement proselytizing in the same manner a theists' speech declaring their god to be true and real is.  (S)he is trying to teach, same as the theist is, albeit accepted reality rather than an imaginary one.

          Forcing?  No, not forcing.  No one need read, no one need accept it. Few theists, in fact, will.

          1. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Wilderness are you just totally ignoring the tone of the comments? You really think these comments are equal in civility. That is clearly the question of the forum.

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Tone is what I'm going on - perceived tone from past experience as I have no idea of the actual context of either comment.

              Both seem rather snarky to me, but the theist a little worse because I don't believe it is honest at all.  Just sarcastic, although like I say, context could easily change that. 

              The atheist is also a little snarky because they know it will not be accepted just as the theist knows their preaching will not be accepted by an atheist.  But preach anyway. 

              But you seem to find preaching in the forums quite acceptable, while calling the atheist form of preaching bad and rude.  That was the point I was trying to make.  It could have been said a little more graciously, a little kinder, by padding it in cotton rather than bare truth, but at the bottom it was just an atheist sermon about reality and how to think properly to find truth.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                You just said it wilderness --- you find pleasantness and apologies insincere based on past experience and not the statement at hand. Wilderness there are no linguistics or syntax to back up where you are coming from it is just a raw knee jerk reaction to a Christian apology. That author is as and more sincere than any bone in your body. That is why I chose her comment.

                Yes I set a trap for a seemingly reasonable atheist to walk into. (though I am a Christian -- I am still a bricklayer or soldier) I saw presupposition time and time again from you. You took an argument from one forum to another. Wisdom is in the details of each situation, not in blanket application like a zombie christian.

                You did it beautifully -- you just assumed the Christian to be snarky and there is absolutely not one shred of evidence in her comment to back up your attitude - because that is what it is -- against Christians. You are being prejudice without looking at the language. That normally would be called bigotry, but that is not PC these days.

                1. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  She may be sincere - I said that.  I haven't read enough of her posts to know, so am limited to what I find such gushing apologies to usually mean; sarcasm.  I'm American, not Canadian.  smile

                  No, nothing to do with Christians.  Just overdone, in my experience, which usually means sarcasm.  Now, you put it into the context of a conversation, with comments from both sides being shown, and I could very well agree with you.

                  But why do you consider a pleasant, if short, description on analytical thinking methods to be rude?  You plainly do think that the atheist comment, obviously a quick lesson in questioning all information, is rude - is it just because it comes from an atheist?  Or because it mentions that all theological information is suspect and known to be false sometimes - something you personally don't like to hear?  Why is they atheist comment rude, or is it called bigotry?  Does it need padded in cotton, made three times as long, so as to lose the listener before the message is delivered?  Biblical quotations don't seem to need that...

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You got me wilderness and that is why I drew this out --- you really do believe in your heart that the response in the forum starter was pleasant? Good for you. Now people can chose what system they want to be a part of -- your "pleasantness" or Sparkea's.

                    Hands down I want to interact more like Sparklea than like e head. I think that is clearly Christian rather than what ever soup of the day you folks call yourself.

                    (see I can do snarky -- but I can at least recognize when I do it but I do not think your folk can)

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              People who are preaching, proselytizing and behaving dishonestly on these forums don't even deserve respect let alone civility.

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Ehead, I think most people get into a debate and sometimes are a little rude. But what you are saying here is that you intend to be "uncivil"  ----  Did I read that right?

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  No, that's not what I said. Read it again.

    3. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Of course, you believe that people are ruining your world, which is the world that has already been ruined by religions for the past several thousand years. You believers hate the fact that we are standing up to your intolerance and bigotry, and your ridiculous assumptions that we are evil, angry, sad, hateful and a myriad of other insulting terms you use to describe us. You simply can't stand the fact that your irrational belief systems will disappear one day soon, and reason and logic will finally see the light of day for mankind.

      If that is the world you view as being ruined, I'm all for it.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I wanted and hope to get other peoples opinions on civility. I think anyone on HP knows yours, With that said I would want to point to your remark here as further example of which I speak.

    4. 0
      Beth37posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I am having trouble understanding where you're coming from, Eric. A month or so ago, you posted a rant on some group or individual. You opened a new acct. with a distorted (somewhat scary) pic of you, and your name slightly altered, posting more of your angry viewpoint on the same thread (double the Eric/double the anger). At first I was very uncomfortable by your anger and your distorted doppelganger. I shared that it was disturbing and you kinda freaked. I remembered that you had shared on the forum about having a bi-polar issue and I thought maybe your meds were off. (I had a good friend who's husband would take some pretty heavy nose dives when his bi-polar meds were off.) So when it looked like ppl were going to start attacking you, I simply posted that you might not be feeling your best and maybe it would be better if we didn't post for a while (to give you time to regulate again; which that last part, I didn't share.) You went into attack mode and said some really horrible things. I took the blame and said not to worry about it. You never apologized... that was fine, but to now be telling ppl they should be called out for their mean and harsh ways, when you don't take responsibility for your own, surprises me a bit.

      Edit: I just looked up that old thread (http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/119484) and realized you did not make that duplicate acct, it was a troll. At the time, I thought maybe you were losing it. I'm sorry I misunderstood that fact. I'm still not sure why you lost it so completely though, but I s'pose it's water under the bridge.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Beth why do you post on my forums?  Certainly you have every right to do so. I am not questioning your right. My question is why. Again, of course you have a right to and are welcome to, I just am wondering why. Remember the topic of this forum please.

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I understood it to be: speaking civilly to one another.

    5. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Q."Is the (antagonistic) response antagonistic on purpose?"  A. Yes.
      Q."Or is it  (the antagonistic response) just straight speech?" A.  No.

      "My view is that the response is harsh and mean and mean spirited and is an example of what is ruining our world.
                         *And ability to be mean, but not be called out on it.*
      Q. Is that (opinion) crazy?" A. No.

      The Way I, (as an individual,) See It

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Are you saying that if people were nicer to each other, the world would be a better place?

        Sounds simplistic, but it's certainly true.

        1. Ericdierker profile image81
          Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I think the hard battles have been fought enough to allow us to be civil. I hope this forum draws out lack of civility so we do not have to debate it. En-whateverhead should get nice, why not? Wilderness should stop defending nastiness ass appropriate. His contributions are awesome but this need of his to pretend posters like ATM are justified to be nasty is misplaced.

          I think I will just start responding to them XXX to let them know they are heard but I find their tone -- no not their point obnoxious.
          If they really cannot admit through this forum that it is hard and hurtful then we should just start ignoring them. Like North Korea.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            LOL  Eric, that is the point I tried to make; preaching by atheists is no more onerous to the theist than theist preaching to the atheist is.  Nastiness? Of course, but it is on both sides of the fence, not just the side opposite you.  My last post here pointed out that both of those are nasty, but more than that, that the atheist preaching is at the same level of nastiness of the theist preaching, whatever level you choose to assign that to.

            1. Ericdierker profile image81
              Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I think this speaks volumes. And I for one have learned much.

              Blessed be you wilderness and may God's grace be upon you for helping all of us to learn more about our neighbors and brothers and sisters. These understandings are worthy of our pursuit and good for man. Good honest men like you prevent resentments and antagonism because we can understand each other.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                LOL - I can bend conduit or wire a school but don't come to me for wisdom and certainly don't come to me to learn about people! 

                I probably learned more than you did here.

      2. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Just relaxing and refreshing to get a straight answer.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I get you, Eric. Me and Janesix get you. Right Jane? P.S, Eric, I have missed you! Where have you been?

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes.

            I just want everyone to be nicer to each other, whether we agree or not.

            I include myself in this, as I am no Mother Teresa.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You got that right… I will never forget your description of certain Yogic practices... where the tongue is... and the nose… You want to explain that again? (That OP about Yoga being evil…Were you playing the devil's advocate?)

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                lol...yeah, that's embarrassing:)

                I was having what you guys would call a psychotic episode that week or so. I've mentioned on here more than once that I'm bipolar.

                I was having spontaneous yoga experience, and thought Satan was doing it somehow, and freaked out. I've learned it's called "kryas" and is quite normal.

                Either way, there are some extreme types of yoga I would never do, that are creepy and disturbing to me.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I'll say.

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    It's embarrassing, that's one of the reasons I was gone so long from this forum.

                    It's not exactly easy being thought of as a lunatic. I've learned to accept the way people think of me, because I don't have a choice. I'm different, and I know it.

                    I suppose I can't say it doesn't bother me to a certain point, because it's actually pretty lonely sometimes.

          2. Ericdierker profile image81
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I was banned for a month. Apparently several folks thought I was in fact a poster that used a hideous (although not much is needed there;-) distorted picture "avatar" of me and an extremely similar hubPages name. So then comments of mine that would normally be just robust were amplified. So folks like Beth and a couple of "beauty" writers did the rest.

            Of course now my status is one of suspected terrorist on a plane. So I will have to be self censored.

            It is an interesting reality -- hence this forum "question".

            1. janesix profile image60
              janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Beth was trying to be nice to you. She didn't realize what was actually going on in that thread. No one did at the time. She thought you were having a psychological issue, tried to help you, and DEFEND you. She apologized for her mistake.

            2. 0
              Beth37posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              If you are assuming that I reported you Eric, I did not. I could have, quite easily, for the terrible things you said, but I assumed it was the illness talking and let it go. I did not report you for the duplicate account. Even if I wanted to, why would I need to, as HPs staff could see it on their own without any help from me. When I apologized, it was for merely *thinking that the duplicate acct was yours, but I had nothing to do with your banning. I assume that came as a result of your speech. I tried, on this thread to discuss it with you (civilly), but just like on the other thread, you singled me out as some kind of villain.

              (Thank you Jane.)

              1. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                False. your attack on my character --- just like you just did regarding your false perception and mention of a disease is a stigmatized attack on another human. Good for hubPages. But have you a degree or true knowledge of this "disease" you attribute to me because of my honesty?

                Your constant reference to Bi-polar matters makes you a hater of folks who have overcome. And make us wonder what you have yet faced.

                Let me give you some examples for fun: George Washington, Leonardo Devinci, Michael Anchelo, George Bush - both. Clinton -- both. Jobs, Buffet - both, of course Einstein and Edison and Darwin.
                Your ignorance and stereotyping is worse than straights who hate gays.

                You need to get some therapy -- I suggest you start with yourself.

                And if I am banned right now we will know who caused it.

                1. Dr Lamb profile image61
                  Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  That doesn't sound like the apology you owe her.

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Explain -- she accused me falsely without the facts. And I should apologize????

                    Her own words.

              2. Dr Lamb profile image61
                Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Beth, I read through that thread and you were profoundly nice and it was clear you were attempting to help. Hats off to you.

      3. jstfishinman profile image78
        jstfishinmanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Many years ago, when I was in High school and College, we were taught how to debate without letting our emotions over run our mouths. This appears to be a lost art. There are very few in HubPages that can have civil debates, bouncing facts back and forth at each other, trying to bring a greater understanding to others. That used to be what a debate was about, information, not seeing who can yell the loudest or be the most sarcastic.

        1. Ericdierker profile image81
          Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Good on ya mate -- perhaps you should be more loud! So we get this message. Bad things happen when good men sit idle.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            ...weird things happen
              when we debate and discuss...
            while we are not
            face to face.
            The temptation to anonymously bully and put down and attack and mimic and criticize and demean and seem superior, glorious, great and wise
            and like anything we could never get away with face to face…is a reality we must deal with and tolerate in ourselves and each other.
            Cuz we're only seventeen… I mean human!

            1. Ericdierker profile image81
              Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              A mirror is all we have to know us
              Introspection is always a plus
              Lost in waves of human combat and battle
              We soon love to hear us prattle
              Not really us but a shell cuddled
              Soon we are less thnt a word muddled
              If we remain true and stand for right
              soon we will see the unfolding light
              But that light may become
              I light that shows us numb.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                (Please omit the last two lines and let it end with:
                But, if we remain true and stand for right,
                soon we will see the unfolding light.)

              2. Ericdierker profile image81
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Kathryn, please make that correction and re-write in so I can copy and paste.
                Let us go for second verse and humble ourselves. And let us go with Leonard Cohen --- Hallelujah

                A mirror is all we have to know us
                Introspection is always a plus
                Lost in waves of human combat and battle
                We soon love to hear us prattle
                Not really us but a shell cuddled
                Soon we are less thnt a word muddled
                If we remain true and stand for right
                soon we will see the unfolding light

                XXXXXXXXXXX

                Friends we leave in the dust
                but they are what love we must
                And goodness falls beside our love
                And we see what is above
                And we cry to mountains here and there
                but our same clothing do we wear
                Until we rise above the muck
                And it is known as damn fool's luck

                //// I do not know God but one time in a desert She told me that it was in everyone.
                Let me play a favorite song --- <iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2FpwjQLZTTs?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                1. Dr Lamb profile image61
                  Dr Lambposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  [REDACTED FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS]

                  1. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you for that intriguing and very lengthy comment. I hope people read it and benefit from your insight. After reading that I really wanted to visit your hubs and check out your outstanding profile. Doggone it you only joined 4 weeks ago and have no profile or hubs published. Let us hope this will inspire you to teach us how to write better. I know I could use the help.
                    This comment took a lot of work and we should appreciate that.
                    Thanks again.

                  2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I see a generation gap.
                    Times are moving on...
                    Welcome to our parents world.
                    I miss them. They had so much common sense and true wit and good natures... they worked hard and said how it was.
                    Not how its not.

                  3. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Some one needs to dig up those books of the 60's and 70's :
                    How to be Cool.
                    and the Art of True Hipness.
                    and read the heck UP!

                  4. Ericdierker profile image81
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Dr. Lamb my All who visit forums and love that lifestyle. I am good with it but wonder how you live in a world of total lack of production. How lonely it must be. Know that I am here for you. Let us heal.

    6. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It really depends on how you choose to see it. Personally, I think the apology and appreciation shown appeared genuine.  The response could have been condescending,  but it appears more of a case of words possibly not matching the intent. It happens often here on HP by both atheists and Christians (including myself in this)

      No I don't think You're crazy, Eric.  I think at times with certain hubbers it is easy to see offense where there may not be any intended (again guilty). It is difficult at times to understand tone based on words.

    7. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think the response is that harsh or mean. Just mildly condescending and a bit smug. I think he's, at the same time, being totally sincere.

      I wouldn't want someone talking that way to me. I would be mildly annoyed, but that's about it.

      Yeah, he could have been nicer and we need more niceness in the world.

      But, this is also the pot calling the kettle black, I've said a lot worse than that to people.

    8. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I think the atheist response you quoted is certainly blunt. Is it rude? Yes, in the sense that it is impolite and tactless (this person should definately not apply to the diplomatic corp, he said tactlessly). But it doesn't strike me as being deliberately insulting. More akin to someone making a faux pas than actively trying to offend, but I always try to give the benefit of the doubt, so I may be way off base there.

      In general, some antireligionist academics have gained attention over the last few years, which seems to have stirred many armchair antireligionists into life. The result is that you find lots of antireligionists on forums attempting to emulate the brash, abrupt, argumentative style of discourse that the most well known antireligionists (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens etc) employ. Unfortunately many also lack the rhetorical skill that allows those speakers to employ that tactic (it is a tactic) effectively. The result is that it often comes across someone being rude, or just bitter about something. I'm not suggesting that's what this is an example of, just making a general observation.

      Btw I found some theists can be as equally rude, but as you asked specifically about the atheist response here, I haven;t commented on that.

      1. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Excellent stuff here which makes a lot of sense. It does seem that equally both sides of this particular isle have a history that carries over. It would also seem there is a visceral gut reaction to matters such as these and that only good training/practice tempers that well. Perhaps it should, then again perhaps not. Perhaps that "gut check" is indeed a bit insincere.

        On the one hand we should appreciate and not deprecate brutal honesty. And on the other we should not deprecate heart felt "lovingness".  And I think it is born out here that we generally consider the latter as more sought after. That is my read at least.

      2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
        EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        It certainly would appear as if you have never even watched those guys speak. Brash? Abrupt? Argumentative? Try and be honest.

        1. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I stated an opinion. You disagree with it. That doesn't make me (or you) dishonest. It just means we disagree, as people often do. Is there any particular reason you feel the need to question someone's integrity just because they happen to have a different opinion to you?

          1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
            EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Only if they offer blatant falsehoods, as you have done.

            1. Don W profile image83
              Don Wposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Let's just avoid the whole **ssing contest that is likely to ensue if I point out how idiotic that comment is, and cut to the chase:

              I think Dawkins and some other well known antireligionists are antagonistic and deliberately provocative. You don't agree.

              I think I just saved us both some time. You're welcome.

    9. Slarty O'Brian profile image88
      Slarty O'Brianposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I think what is wrong with this world is that people allow themselves get insulted

    10. Oztinato profile image84
      Oztinatoposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I just read all these posts and appreciate the positive vibes here. Of course I often wonder about these same issues. Its clear if people respond with reason and facts there would be far less vitriol. There are limits to incivilty that should not be condoned and the hub masters (whoever they are) seem to be on the ball about it.

  2. Sparklea profile image79
    Sparkleaposted 2 years ago

    To Eric and everyone on this forum:

    My apology was sincere, and, as previously stated, never would I deliberately insult ones intelligence.

    I also know that any time I comment on a forum, I leave myself open to criticism

    That being said, sarcasm is never my intent.

    I personally respect the multitude of responses on the forums.  Each individual has a right to his/her own opinion. 
    Sincerely, Sparklea

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      And I had no intent to offend you; I responded as someone not knowing you at all, and taking a collection of words at face value with no other knowledge.  Do, please, understand that my comments were towards those unsupported words, not towards you.

  3. 0
    Beth37posted 2 years ago

    Dr. Lamb, I used to imagine that you were ATM, but now I know who you are. Only one person on this forum post with this much animosity. You are filled with anger and I'm sorry about that. I know how deeply you have been hurt. I know you're not worried about getting banned cause you'll simply use your usual account, but if you do get banned, I want to assure you, as I did Eric, I have no intention of reporting you. It's like Sara Bareilles says, "Say what you wanna say..." It ain't no thing. smile But when you're ready to be Brave, post as yourself. There's nothing to be afraid of.

    1. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      hmm

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I'm Spartacus.

      2. Ericdierker profile image81
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I think we should respect folk that do not use there real identity, after they have posted 50 featured hubs.

    2. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It's amazing how wrong you can be about who people are here and just how absolutely irrelevant it is.



      You're probably just as wrong about that as so many other things you say. smile

  4. 0
    Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago

    Nooooo.

    I'm Spartacus.

    1. JMcFarland profile image90
      JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm Spartacus.

    2. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hi everyone!   Hercules here..... did I interrupt a conversation?

 
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