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Universalism is worthy of respect.

  1. Ericdierker profile image83
    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago

    If we take two complete truths and say that God is Love and Jesus is the Word then we must look for restrictions. Why would we look for exclusionary restrictions on the Word and Love. God loves all His children.
    There is not one bit of scripture that cannot be interpreted into a universal acceptance of all mankind into Gods Kingdom.

    (as a note; it does not apply to me as I am one who thinks of Jesus walking right next to me all the time and fuses His body with the Spirit)

    1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
      AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      So what you are saying is that Jesus is not the only "way" to God?

      1. Ericdierker profile image83
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        No I am saying that Jesus is not just an icon. That he is the Word and the Love and those two are of Him. So those that know Love and the Word are justified.

        1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
          AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So sorry. I didn't understand....just ignore me then lol

          1. Ericdierker profile image83
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            How about I love you rather than ignore you. How about I embrace you with kindness and abundance.

            1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
              AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Um...sure, that works too...I guess. I was just joking but, sure hmm

            2. jonnycomelately profile image87
              jonnycomelatelyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Erik, you are talking in absolutes about your beliefs.  A "belief" by definition is not proven.  A fact is by definition something that can be proven.

              You are talking about Loving Ashtonfirefly.  If you ever met Ashtonfirefly in person, face-to-face, you might find there was no way you could like him or her.  So your claim to Love does not extend inevitably to Liking.

              It would be superhuman to Like every other person, and your idea that a belief in a Jesus could change all that is speaking with head-in-the-clouds.

              Have your beliefs, for your self, that is respected and not questioned.  But to imply that your beliefs are what other persons need is egotistical.  IMO.

              Ever elitist
              Generally grandiose
              Often ostentatious

              1. Ericdierker profile image83
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Nice try. Maybe if you would have ended in IMHO it would have nearly worked.

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Justified in doing what? Keeping and beating slaves?

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You will first have to convince me that God is love and Jesus is God's word. If they are truths then you should be able to prove them to be truths.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        No. Eric can only prove it to himself. He cannot prove it to you unless he himself is Jesus or God. He IS His child, but that is not enough to prove it to you, obviously.

        Some schoolwork you just have to do yourself.
        So, GET OUT YOUR PENCIL! yikes
        ( Sorry, I say that a lot when subbing. )

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So it's not a truth then. Okay.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            To Eric, yes. To unbelievers, No.
            ...and that is okay with me. I appreciate their (and your) service in clearing out dogmas, falsities, mindless rituals and indoctrinations. Thank you. (After all this keyboarding and questioning I finally have a new appreciation for Atheists and you. Seriously.)  I myself can't throw God out of the picture. I did for awhile. But, when I contemplated the life behind the tree, I applied it to myself and the rest is history.

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
              SwordofManticorEposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              1 Tim 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

              Romans 3: 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                No, it will not nullify the faithfulness of God. But, if they do not access the Spirit of God, how can they benefit?
                How can we access the Spirit of God?
                By believing alone?
                Jesus said the harvest is abundant, but the laborers are few.
                What could this mean?

    3. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, God is love. And Jesus is the word. But the "word" says something. Not EVERYthing...
      There are those who do not belong to God; those to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity; I knew you not."
      We are hard-pressed to deliver truth of Jesus. Woe be unto him who leads astray. "All who are not for me, are against me."
      The "universe" is not for God. Many of them have another plan.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Okay:  Questions: 

        A.  What do you mean by "hard pressed?"
        B.  Whom is leading whom astray?
        C.  Define "workers of inequity."
        D.  Are you saying that whoever is is not for Jesus in this forum discussion is somehow condemned by Jesus or God?
        E.  Who does "them" refer to exactly?
        F.  What does "Universe" mean to you?

        Usually you are more positive, Miss C. I like that better!

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Hard pressed- I meant that it behooves us/we MUST.
          Anyone who tells anyone else that God/Jesus are on all paths of consciousness is leading the person that they are speaking to astray.
          Those who love sin are workers of iniquity.
          Those who are not for him are against him. That's all I know. He decides who is/is not condemned.
          Which them are you referring to?
          Universe to me is a very broad term. And broad is the opposite of narrow.
          I am STILL very much positive. smile
          I love the Lord. And he asked me to serve him in spirit and truth. Truth is important.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Those that are honest and admit they don't know if He is real or not are somehow "against" Him?  Do you understand how silly that statement sounds - that recognizing ignorance actually means activity against that which isn't known to exist?

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Yes. And honesty is a virtue.

            2. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Those who admit that they do not know if God exists; also admits that they have put a big red X over the information that he has already provided.
              If they take what he gives;  he gives more...
              He who is faithful in little, will be faithful in much. (So says the bible)
              To whom much is given, much is required. (And there it goes again.)

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                He wants proof. He will get it one day. Maybe sooner than others.  Cut some slack Miss C!!!
                What is up?
                We must have respect for not only the "temple" of the heart but of the mind. Understanding will come, in time.  We should be generous enough to allow others time. I read in the Bible that some who are first will be last and some who who are last will be first… All is well! Chill... if you want!

                The Way I See It

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  The slack is cut already. smile
                  I am no bully. I have not hurt anyone. The self is deceptive. I am saying exactly what the bible says. Everyone here may look it up and say yes or no.
                  I have no heaven or hell. I'm down here darted in the heart as well. I speak the truth of scripture. Now if you'd like to debate interpretation, i'm ready.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    It just seems like you are slipping a little. Is anything up? You really are usually more gentle.

                    I cannot debate you. Apparently my heart is not clean enough. I am arrogant and self righteous, angry etc. So, what is the point? I will not be able to interpret it at all anyway, according to what you alluded to when you asked me if I had the "spirit of God."
                    ( Whether one does or does not should not be questioned for any reason what-so-ever. It is indeed confusing why anyone would ask someone that question.)

                2. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  We must have respect for not only the "temple" of the heart but of the mind. Understanding will come, in time.  We should be generous enough to allow others time. I read in the Bible that some who are first will be last and some who who are last will be first… All is well! Chill... if you want! The Way I See It

                  I respect all. God above all. He does not allow us to allow what he doesn't.  When it's a matter of what the bible says and obvious discrepancy...guess what...

    4. Caleb DRC profile image87
      Caleb DRCposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Ericdierker wrote: "There is not one bit of scripture that cannot be interpreted into a universal acceptance of all mankind into Gods Kingdom."

      I would be interested in how you interpret Matthew 20:16 and 22:14 concerning many being called but few chosen. Also when God said those who sin against Him, those will be blotted out of the Book of Life( Ex. 32:33); Jesus follows up with the same thing for those who do not overcome sin( Rev. 3:5). Jesus said He is the only Way to God( John 14:6), and He confirms it at Jn. 8:12,19,23,24; this puts all those in other religions out of the Book. Does it sound like the people are in heaven at Mt. 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; Lk.13:28? Or does it sound like Christ will welcome those at Mt. 7:23? Are those at Jude 1:5-7 going to be in the Kingdom of God?

      Eric, how can you possibly turn these Scriptures around and state Universalism is a valid doctrine in light of God's Word?

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image75
        SwordofManticorEposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Matt 22 refers to the judgement on Judea.

        1. Caleb DRC profile image87
          Caleb DRCposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Well, Sword, it is good to bat the ball across the court with you again. I notice Eric did not answer any of my questions, nor did anyone else. I respect the fact you are willing to take on the challenge of defending your beliefs.

          Jesus also said to the woman to sin no more( John 8:11), and considering the lists that will take one to hell as at Ephesians 5:2 to through 5( esp. V5), and Galatians 5:19 through 21( esp. V21), I think Jesus meant business when He said to sin no more.

          How do you figure Matt. 22 refers to judgment on Judea only?

          Ok, I'm sending the ball back to you: The following argumentation I wrote to a couple of very good friends whom I'm debating on this subject. They both believe that the wicked go to the grave and are annihilated. If you believe everyone is saved then just plug in "everyone is saved" in place of the grave. Most of the questions are still applicable. Also my questions to Eric above need to be addressed.



          THINGS THAT MAKE NO SENSE:

          Matthew( Mt.) 8:12 says, "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." MacArthur wrote, "This expression describes the eternal agonies of those in hell." Indeed, what else would it describe? Mt. 8:12 makes no sense if this was describing the grave. Try to apply the grave to other references to these agonies: Mt. 13:42, 50; 24:51; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 13:28. Here at Lk. 13:28 how can they see those prophets if they are dead, unconscious, and annihilated? The same question can be applied to weeping and gnashing of teeth. How can this agony be experienced if one is dead, unconscious and annihilated? If these verses do not apply to the experiences of those in hell, then what can they possibly be applied to? Rev. 20:14 and 15 state that both death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. This is not annihilation because at Rev. 14:10 one cannot be tormented and dead at the same time, and verse 11 states this will be for ever and ever, and they will have not rest day nor night. One has to be conscious to have no rest. I have much more but this will keep you busy.

          Other Scripture that makes no sense are those concerning degrees of punishment: At Mt. 23:14; Mk. 12:40 and Lk. 20:47 we have "the greater damnation" in my KJV. How can there be greater damnation if the grave is all there is for those not in the Book of Life? Annihilation would make those verses nonsensical, and it would make Jesus a liar because there would be no greater damnation when He specifically said they would have greater damnation. Luke 12:47 and 48 also refer to degrees of punishment in hell. Making hell the grave or annihilation would also make these verses nonsensical.

          In Dake's annotated study Bible he has on page 620, column 3, "88 facts proving hell not the grave." In fact he has 2 pages jam packed with Scripture proving hell is different from the grave, hell is a place of eternal torment, and addressing other controversial aspects on this subject. I will take a picture of these pages and email them to you. That will save me a lot of time and keep the both of you very busy. I just hope the writing is not so small that you cannot read it, but we will see.

          USING STRONG'S CONCORDANCE--->ELIMINATING MISUNDERSTANDING:

          I looked up the following words in Strong's: Outer(1857) means exterior, outer. Darkness(4655) means obscurity, darkness. Weeping(2805) means wailing, weeping. Gnashing(1030) means a grating of the teeth, gnashing. Teeth(3599) means tooth, teeth. Furnace(2575) means a furnace. Fire(4442) means fire. Everlasting(166) means perpetual, eternal, for ever, everlasting.

          Some of the Scripture that apply to hell are these: Matthew( Mt.) 8:12 "cast out into outer(1857) darkness(4655); there shall be weeping(2805) and gnashing(1030) of teeth(3599)". Mt. 13:42 "cast them into a furnace(2575) of fire(4442); there shall be weeping(2805) and gnashing(1030) of teeth(3599)". Notice here it is a singular person doing the casting, not a family or other individuals. Also it is cast, not bury. Cast(1544) means to eject, cast forth, drive out, expel, send away, etc. This would be an unusual word to mean bury. Luke 13:27 "depart from me all you workers of iniquity.: V28 "There shall be weeping(2805) and gnashing(1030) of teeth(3599), when you shall see Abraham . . . and you yourselves thrust out." If they were dead, destroyed and annihilated then they could not see or be cognizant that they were thrust out.

          WHAT ABOUT EVERLASTING?

          Mt. 25:41 "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting(166) fire(4442), prepared for the Devil and his angels." This concept is made very clear at Rev. 14:9 "If any man worship the Beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand." V10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." V11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."

          1. Ericdierker profile image83
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Caleb the answer to all your questions is rather simple. God can do whatever He wants to do and God is Love.
            Now the good book tells us how to live, it does not tell God how to act. The Bible is for man. And I follow it. But I do not presume that a book written for man restricts God in His infinite and omnipowerful Love.

            I hope that answers all of your questions. And I hope that you live by the restrictions of the two great commandments.

            1. Caleb DRC profile image87
              Caleb DRCposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Thankyou for your reply, Eric:

              Well, we agree on that point: your answer is rather simple. However, you did not address my question. Let's not forget your original statement: " There is not one bit of scripture that cannot be interpreted into a universal acceptance of all mankind into Gods Kingdom." I just gave to you about 18 verses that would be nearly impossible to twist around into universal salvation. I'm curious concerning the reasoning you applied to make that assertion.

              It is wishful thinking to believe only that God is love, but ignore the fact that He is also a God of judgment, or to believe God has great joy when a sinner repents, and yet ignore the fact that He has great anger when a sinner does not repent. You said "Now the good book tells us how to live, it does not tell God how to act." However, it most definitely tells us the acts of God, past, present and future. This is why we are commanded to fear God--if we have not the love--because He will follow through with what He said!

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                If God were Mother would She be like that? Many worship God as Divine Mother. A mother would not be like that. God made mothers. God forgives us and loves us as any mother would do. God is our Father with the love of a Mother. Jesus came with forgiveness. All we have to do is read Jesus accurately and clearly. Karma Yoga is summed up with the Golden Rule. We are saved by right actions in line with helping ourselves and others.
                   
                TWISI

                1. Caleb DRC profile image87
                  Caleb DRCposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi Kathryn,

                  We cannot conform Scripture to our personal beliefs; we must conform our beliefs to Scripture. The Bible states that Hell exists, and living beings will exist in it. Concerning this we cannot ignore the many verses I have posted previously. Is the Bible God's words or not? If this is a fact then we must hear them. Jesus said at John 8:47 "He that is of God hears God's words: you hear them not because you are not of God." To pick and choose what we want to believe makes us vulnerable to any cult and false doctrine that comes our way, and we risk not being saved; i. e. not going to heaven. It is a sad fact that atheists have chosen their destiny, but sadder still is the fact that many people who think they are saved are not( Matthew 7:21-23; 25:11,12; Luke 13:23-28). I view universalism using clever sophistry to justify sin; thereby negating Scripture as Matthew 7:24 and 1John 3:4-8 and many others. Complacency to sin leads and dupes us into hell. Not believing in hell makes it all the easier to buy into the complacency.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    And what is Hell based on according to what what you have read in Scripture?
                    And what is the state of "being saved" according to Scripture.
                    Do you think it easy or hard to live a life without sinning?
                    What kind of sins are committed in "complacency?"
                    Are sins subtle or obvious?
                    Is it easy to avoid committing them?
                    or easier to commit them?
                    based on what in human nature?
                    Do you think there is a lot of sinning going on in society?
                    Do you think we are all pretty much headed for Hell?

                  2. jonnycomelately profile image87
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    This will sound rude, I know, but what I have read in this post I see as religious fanaticism.  Obviously you will not see it that way, and that is your right to do so. 

                    Such a dogmatic opinion can only serve to distance myself and, I suspect, many others from the sort of christianity you present.   When it is all based upon belief structures in your mind, it is not valid to foster those beliefs on others; then make judgments upon them if they do not agree.  IMHO

                  3. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Do you hold all scripture up as factual? Should we own and beat our slaves and should those slaves who we beat with clubs be obedient to us? Should women be punished for childbirth and should they be further punished for giving birth to girls?

              2. Ericdierker profile image83
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I think we have laid out how we disagree. I do not believe God is restricted to act they way the Bible say He must act. I do not think He inspired man to write a book to restrict Himself.

                1. Caleb DRC profile image87
                  Caleb DRCposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  OK, Eric. Thank you for your response.

            2. sonfollowers profile image92
              sonfollowersposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Eric,

              This is a very interesting statement.  I'm wondering how Numbers 23 fits into that for you:

              Numbers 23:19 ESV
              "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

              It's not that the Scripture would restrict God, but rather that God means what he says.  It's part of his character--part of his nature.  Why would you think that God would communicate things to us and then later abandon what was communicated?  "Just kidding", God says? 
               
              All through the New Testament (gospels, Acts, Paul's letters) we are told that salvation requires action on our part (belief and repentance).  Over and over we see the message "repent and you will be saved".  John 3:16:  "whosoever believes will not perish but have eternal life".  Paul says it in Romans 10:9.  Salvation must be accepted, based on these verses. It's free because payment has already been made, but free is not the same thing as automatic.  Clearly salvation isn't just dropped on everyone everywhere whether they believe or not, whether they want it or not.

              That may not feel good to us but it's what scripture teaches.  I understand when the atheists guffaw when I say that, but it just seems like you would be a little more respectful of scripture than that.  Why bother taking any of it seriously if you are just going to toss out whatever doesn't make you feel good?

              Seems weird to me.

              1. Ericdierker profile image83
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                sonfoolower,
                You make excellent points and it sounds perfectly logical and rational. It sound very easy to follow. Personally I am in no way bound by the old testament. Just am not and will not be. Study them, read them, preach on them, somewhat understand them, guided by them but not ruled by them. Otherwise I would have to take my wife and child aside and explain that they are merely my chattel.

                I read every scripture through glasses that color the look. That color is the hue of Love thy God and Love everyone else. (does not mean I like you or want to marry you) But it sure as Hell means that out of my mouth I shall not condemn you.
                John 20:23 is a trick for folks like you.

                1. sonfollowers profile image92
                  sonfollowersposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok, what It sounds like you're saying is this (after reading it again):

                  You read with "glasses that color" what you read, meaning that you redefine the text to fit your world view rather than shaping your world view to fit the text.  You don't present the text as it is or as the authors intended it.  What the authors were trying to communicate is irrelevant because you have a need to make it fit your view of God.  Having done that, you pass this colored perspective around and "stand on" the Bible as if it lends validity and authority to the world view you are working from.

                  Is that a fair or unfair summary of what you were trying to communicate?

                  Thanks.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    +1

    5. SwordofManticorE profile image75
      SwordofManticorEposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The mystery of judgement when we stand before our Lord is found in John 8:1-11. What is impossible for man, is possible with God.

    6. gmwilliams profile image85
      gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Eric, you are indeed a beautiful muse.  You have a soothing and inspirational ways with words.  God is indeed love, light, and beauty.  In fact, God is the ULTIMATE love, light, beauty, and consciousness.
      http://s1.hubimg.com/u/9102228_f248.jpg

  2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Have you ever hugged a tree? It really is, strangely enough, a joyful experience. - well, to some, anyway…big_smile

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, while snow skiing.  It actually wasn't very joyful... smile

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        No, when a tree jumps up and gets in your way, that is not called hugging. mad

        1. JMcFarland profile image93
          JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I think that's called "crashing"

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            big_smile its also called a heck of a place for a tree.

  3. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    The "universe" is not for God. Many of *them* have another plan." This is a particularly baffling statement. What were you referring to. Just curious.

  4. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    I will c and v for you because I think you should be aware: I hope you do not take offense.
    "The "universe" is not for God. Many of *them* have another plan." This is a particularly baffling statement.

    "Those who admit that they do not know if God exists; also admits that they have put a big red X over the information that he has already provided." It is a free country whether one wants to read a particular source of information or not. I am sure God would agree. He is not one to shove the Bible or any other religious book in someones face. I have never seen Him do it, anyway. Once or twice books fell into my hands at the library, but only when I was looking for the information.

    "Anyone who tells anyone else that God/Jesus are on all paths of consciousness is leading the person that they are speaking to astray." This is only in your opinion. Why do you state it with such authority?

    "Those who love sin are workers of iniquity." Why do you bring this up at all?

    "Those who are not for him are against him." Who here has expressed not being for him? I will tell you: NO ONE (How can they be against Him if they cannot verify his existence in the first place?)

    If you were just stating these things randomly, never mind. But, if they were directed at anyone in particular it seems a little accusational. If you were just bringing these things up randomly you might want to explain why they are significant to YOU, so others will not take offense.
    But, of course, this is just The Way I See it...and who am I?

    1. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      If you were just stating these things randomly, never mind. But, if they were directed at anyone in particular it seems a little accusational. If you were just bringing these things up randomly you might want to explain why they are significant to YOU, so others will not take offense.

      First,  my heart has no concern for they who are offended by the bible. It is what it is. It was actually promised that people would be sorely offended.  I speak what it says. The spirit of it all backs me up.

      " It is a free country whether one wants to read a particular source of information or not. I am sure God would agree."

      The bible quotes Jesus as saying,  "Learn of me" seems to leave no room for, "since you live in a free country...learn of me if you want." Now for those who wish to not follow him... it's a free country.

      I will c and v for you because I think you should be aware: I hope you do not take offense. "The "universe" is not for God. Many of *them* have another plan." This is a particularly baffling statement.

      Never offended. I realize the sensitivity of the subject and i stay ready.
      FEW will find it... that is straight from scripture. When you speak universe, seems to be all-encompassing. They (the universe) is not interested in God; but self.  Not all people belong to God. Jesus said that, if you believe the bible

      "Anyone who tells anyone else that God/Jesus are on all paths of consciousness is leading the person that they are speaking to astray." This is only in your opinion. Why do you state it with such authority?

      Do sound kinda authoritative don't it??? smile That's because it comes from scripture. Not Genaea. My voice cracks...
      Jesus said I am the way. Not any other teaching. Jesus had specific commands, God's spirit agrees. The universe is on the wide path which Jesus also spoke about.

      "Those who love sin are workers of iniquity." Why do you bring this up at all? 

      I thought you specifically asked, "who are workers of iniquity?"

      "Those who are not for him are against him." Who here has expressed not being for him? I will tell you: NO ONE (How can they be against Him if they cannot verify his existence in the first place?) 

      "Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened." Aint no excuses. 
      "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my father in heaven. "
      "He who is not FOR me, IS against me." Again not my words.






      .

      1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
        AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Cgenaea, do you mind if I ask if there was ever a time when you were an unbeliever, or have you always believed in your faith?

        (Not a loaded question don't worry)

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I think I told you a couple of days ago smile no problem.
          I never not believed. I was born in church. When skepticism knocked, I got good answers from the most unexpected places. I had been fed so much baloney in the name of TITHES AND OFFERING that my broke butt started asking questions. Lol... I felt that the message of Christ was perverted for money. I was right...

          1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
            AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Ah. I thought that was you. I see I was correct. Sorry.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              No problem, again. smile

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                So, we are all down here "darted in the heart" atheists and theists alike?

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  No, sorry for the misunderstanding. Not all of us feel anything when being shown the mirror of the truth of God. He grabs the attention of some, me included.
                  See, I am not perfect. I fall (sometimes blatantly). I am growing still.
                  The spirit in the words of scripture, I do know...  And I'm grateful. It is severely imperative that truth is known; it's the ONLY way to truly be free.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    So atheists feel nothing? and are not "darted in the heart?"
                    Is it kindness to show them the error of their ways? even when they are happily living their lives hurting no one … Here in these forums they are busting Dogmas right and left.  Is Dogma Busting useful or not in your understanding?

  5. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    I give up.
    Finis.

  6. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Dictating to others about what they should or should not believe, (no matter if their belief is right or wrong, real or delusional, supported by facts or just wishful thinking…) is not kind.  What is kindness? Having enough respect to allow another to make up his own mind, do his own research and lead himself to the watering hole of his choice. Maybe I like the trees around this watering hole better than that one over there where you are. All watering holes have water. Please let us choose which ever watering hole we want.

    Offering opinions and sharing beliefs is another matter entirely.

    But, saying one must believe such and such in such and such a way is Taboo.

    TWISI

    1. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I am only speaking of biblical scripture. There are biblical musts. I did not sit down and pen the words that I say regarding the trying of spirit. You can try spirit no other way. The bible says that.  Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
      You seem to be angry with me for disagreeing with you from scripture. Are there any more reincarnation passages in the bible? Maybe I missed something...???
      What is a little irritating to me, since were being so transparent today, is one who says they admire and love Jesus, but have not stopped to consider the words spoken of and by him. "No man will come unto the father but by me." And he spoke no, "unless you wanna take ALL the routes" clause. We cannot then turn right around and confidently report that all roads lead to God.  That's opposite...
      Not dictating or mocking... truth... that's it.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Dear Cgenaea,
        If there is anyone to correct you it is me. Not even Eric will come on and reprimand you for really dissing his message which I, for one, read in joy. No, it is not about joy in itself. It is delighting in the Truth.
        Why do you argue with and correct believers? I am a believer. Eric is a believer. We drink from the same cup as you. Let us do so in peace and happiness.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Dear Kathryn,
          WWJD (what would Jesus do)? Correct his own; or no???

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            You are trying to justify an unjustifiable correction, in my humble opinion. Ask Eric. I can't fight his battles for him. He may be here. Tell him of your concerns. But, you might want to do it (maybe… it is just a suggestion, trying to be helpful... without (what some people call "sneeze quotes") snippets of Bible passages. I do not mean to be rude, but Scripture is more easily understood by reading more than one or two lines, as far as I know.. at least for me...
            IMO

            1. Ericdierker profile image83
              Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The evaluation of what Christ would do is found in His words and in our priority of His words. I like it simple. We cannot all be all things to either our God, ourselves or to others. We must chose guiding principles that allow us to transcend all situations and debate.

              I just go with the simplest rationale and faith for me. "And the Greatest Commandment". That is spelled L-O-V-E. My heart and mind can only take in so many rules and regulations (hey and that is being trained as a lawyer and a preacher with a degree in philosophy) so I picked for me, the easiest.

              If one interpretation or snippet seems to be unloving then I reject it. If another interpretation seems loving then I accept it. Eternal torment is caused by lack of love for oneself, God and others. No love equals hell. (read that both ways).

              So if accepting Universalists is more loving than rejecting them. The question is fair if letting them be deceived is less loving than correcting them. I have no Divine Spiritual guidance on that matter so I just chose to love.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                So all this was because you, Eric, are having trouble with Universalists?  You just explained: "So if accepting Universalists is more loving than rejecting them. The question is fair if letting them be deceived is less loving than correcting them. I have no Divine Spiritual guidance on that matter so I just chose to love."
                5 4 3….
                Cgenaea and Eric, you guys are on…! Please take it form here! Now Ive' got my own popcorn and easy chair!

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Listen closely. Get your bible. And don't forget the salt. wink

              2. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                All CHRISTIANS have divine spiritual guidance. "What SEEMS right to man..." Google that phrase, you may be surprised.
                Christians cannot reject the reproof of scripture. But they may stay on whatever road they choose. It is written.

                1. Ericdierker profile image83
                  Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Not all Christians have Divine Spiritual Guidance on all matters of scripture -- end of story.

                  I do not at all claim to know about that gal Delilah. I am weak on Job and Nicodemus and Pilot still contain some mysteries to me. But I am quite sure that if I studied those and prayed on them and meditated on it I would find that guidance. Divine Guidance is not for the pew sitter on Sundays but for those who seek it and can handle it.  That is that narrow door you speak of. But that is what we seek not what Grace can do.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image60
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Pew sitter?  No. I have come from among them. The mind of God is the important matter. We cannot think like him...but we can say what HE said (even when we fail to understand) and be a fool, and never err... it is written.
                    Having his mind comes when we say what he said. Our understanding of it is much less important. When we say what he said; THAT is what changes lives and hearts. If we bring what's in our cup, we miss out. Our cup overflows with OUR stuff. Not God's.  He has one mind. One heart. One way. And one voice. Not millions...

            2. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I am not fighting anyone, Ma'am. We are discussing the spirit of the bible. The one that agrees with the spirit of God/Jesus. You came to correct me with TWYSI and I am coming from the bible. Now, since we are correcting according to the source, I need more than what you see. You just seemed to advocate for the New World Order. Which IS biblical. But more of a biblical warning. Please give me sneeze quotes. I can divide. Go...

  7. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    I believe this quote in reponse to the OP was uncalled for:

    "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity; I knew you not."
    We are hard-pressed to deliver truth of Jesus. Woe be unto him who leads astray. "All who are not for me, are against me."
    The "universe" is not for God. Many of them have another plan.

    Was this kind to Eric, a believer?
    Kindness is respecting another's right to share their viewpoint. He did not have a dictatorial attitude at all. I felt he was just sharing his awareness of what he believes to be true.
    TWISI

    1. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Woe be unto him who leads astray. "All who are not for me, are against me." 
      "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity; I knew you not."

      These are direct biblical quotes. Are you now stating that we should be happy in serving God and following Jesus even if it means that we are not on the path that Jesus laid for those of us who follow him???
      No.
      We must serve him in spirit and truth.
      My truth comes from the bible. Are you finding biblical clauses that state that Jesus (the one we follow) said that all roads lead to God??? I'll wait...

      1. Ericdierker profile image83
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Certainly you are aware that any standard well educated mind can find quotes in the Holy Bible to back up nearly any course of conduct.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I will wait for your biblical back-up... go!!!

  8. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Eric posted:
    "There is not one bit of scripture that cannot be interpreted into a universal acceptance of all mankind into Gods Kingdom."

    Why would a believer of Jesus not agree wholeheartedly with this premise?

    Scripture indeed reveals a universal acceptance of ALL mankind,  welcoming ANYONE into God's Kingdom. (Of course, it helps immensely if they seek it, in other words, make an effort to receive it.)

    TWISI

    1. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      All who want "in" to God's house may come. But they will come in the front door. A thief tries the window and or roof.  (Directly from scripture)
      All roads do not lead to God. ONLY THE PATH THAT JESUS LAID. He specifically stated that all other roads lead to death. Let those who have an ear to hear...

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        What are you trying to say through scripture? why can''t you use your own words???? what do those words mean to you in reference to anything being said here??? (Throwing popcorn at screen.)

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          You do not understand biblical quotes??? My words are no good.  I gotta use life-changing words when speaking to the children of God. Is that our problem? You use your words???

          1. Ericdierker profile image83
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Easy here we are not pure parrots or we are empty gongs.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Empty... it's funny that you use that word...
              Yes...empty...

  9. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 2 years ago

    The only reason we have hundreds of different denominations in Christianity today IS because Universalism was created in 326 AD.  Catholism means Universalism!  All the different sects of believers came together and threw away a lot of stuff in order to "Boil it down" to something ALL could agree with.

         It is my belief that something of great importance was lost in the first "Universalism. And that stood alone against all other forms of worship for over 1000 years.
           Then it branched off into two ... and then into many. And then into more and then into many more.
          IMO  The reason for this breaking away from Universalism in the first place is because everyone is still looking for that missing part that became separated so long ago.

         Until a complete line of thought is created, where the apparent contradictions can be seen as non-contradicting;  there will always be people that question that which is currently accepted by which ever group they affiliate themselves to.
          There is a piece missing.  IMO

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you for this interesting clarification! makes sense.

        Eric mentioned universal *acceptance…* what did he mean? what was his original concern? that some are not accepted into the kingdom of God..universally?
      actually, I am a little confused by his post and not sure what issue he was actually addressing. Universalism in the sense you are mentioning or just universal acceptance of all mankind into the kingdom of God. I didn't know there was exclusion of some type going on... (???)

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        A lot of people believe in Universal Salvation.  And I would have to agree.
        I stand by my previous statement.
            The basic disagreement lies in the four views on Revelation.
        Every view of Christianity falls within one of these groups. Preterist, Historicist, Futurist and spiritualist.
        On this issue there can never be a universal agreement.  Sadly, most Christians hold individual belief that take some from each of these categories.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          How should it be? Could we become or is there a potential for us to be, as ED mentioned, one big happy family? obviously not, as you already said. But what of it? Each to their own!  There are many paths to the top of the mountain where the Kingdom of Heaven is. (Just start climbing with love, devotion and faith... I mean, effort and motivation are required. TWISI)

          Universal reconciliation:
          "In Christian theology, universal reconciliation (also called universal salvation, Christian universalism, or in context simply universalism) is the doctrine that all sinful and alienated human souls—because of divine love and mercy—will ultimately be reconciled to God."
          I would add, "If they make the effort."

          I guess the *type of effort* is the underlying issue.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Again just my opinion. 
            I don't think it matters that much which of these four categorizes we find our self. The outcome will be the same. If there is any differentiation it will be caused by our behavior rather than which f these categories we find our self.
                As is commonly stated, God sees into our hearts and not our pocket book to see what membership card we carry.   

               Gotta go to work for a few hours.  back shortly

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              It is not our behavior,  but faith that passes us into God's kingdom.  We all mess up on the doing part. Faith in Jesus is what makes us clean. When we have faith in Jesus, we say what he said. And believe it full blast.
              Jesus said, "one narrow road that few will find." The big wide path is for the others.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                You state that with full authority, however faith is just the beginning according to the Bible, and the Bhagavad Gita and the precepts of Buddha. And since you did not add TWISI, neither will I.
                Just Tryin' To Be Helpful

        2. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I come from the bible as it is Christian reproof. And I still wait for a scripture that reads, All roads lead to God.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The issue is that the Kingdom of God is open to all people.

            Now, I am asking what type of effort is required to obtain the Kingdom of God? What does Jesus say that is so different from say, Krishna? Buddha had beautiful ways to climb the mountain! (Now, we are cooking with Gas! lol )
            Before we go on (or not) I must say, if you have not read The Bhagavad Gita or the precepts of Buddha, you cannot possibly know whether there are differences or not! Maybe they all say the same thing and explain the same *types of efforts* in order for the devotee of God to make it to Heaven… which they indeed DO!!!
            According To What I have Read.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The Bhagavad Gita is not my reproof as a Christian.

    2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      lol Then, if you all agreed, there wouldn't be tens of thousands of registered Christian denominations. The reason for that is because you can't agree with each other.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for the comic relief you always provide in a timely manner.

      2. Ericdierker profile image83
        Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        We really should not all agree. It is really scary to see a large group of Christians that believe exactly the same thing -- I mean spooky.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I agree. You would be talking about some sort of mass hypnosis…  it is natural to come to our own path and our own devotion in our own way.  In fact  "they" are planning to come up with a One World Religion, I hear!!!

          1. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The one world religion is for the antichrist, TWISI.
            Anyone got any better BIBLICAL ideas on the matter???

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I suspected, that by the specific commands contained within Christianity for all Christians was exactly that... that they do indeed all believe exactly the same thing. Isn't that the entire point of God's commands for all Christians?

          1. Ericdierker profile image83
            Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            OH Hell no!
            Each man is different.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              But, that doesn't answer the question as to why all Christians don't believe in the same thing? Doesn't God command you to believe everything He says? Equally?

            2. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Hell yes..  you mean? All men are different.
              Jesus has one mind. The same mind that God, his father has. We get in tune with the way THEY think, THEN and ONLY then, do we become ONE with them. Rejection, is a no-no...

              1. Ericdierker profile image83
                Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                See how different we are --- I think you just made a case that we are all different. In fact you and and I are very different but our Love of God can be very similar, although I think He may get a little bored with that ;-0

                The lemon tree is very pretty, the flower very sweet but the fruit of the lemon tree is impossible to eat, yet we love to make lemonade. All parts of the same tree. Even the wood is wonderful to use to burn or carve. And the tree is home to both bee and bird alike. I would not like only to have a lemon tree for I love the fig tree also though it is very different and not nearly so pretty but the fruit is wonderful to eat but makes a lousy juice.

                Those are all my words (although some borrowed from a song) not scripture yet they may teach love for diversity.

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  The scripture teaches love for diversity. Then it lumps them all onto ONE body. With ONE mind.

                  1. Ericdierker profile image83
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    If you want to put it that way, I see your point. But I do not think you and I have one mind at this time. And I would say that all different minds are "gathered" together not the same.

                2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Why would God be bored with following his commands equally? Isn't that what He expects?



                  But, it doesn't answer the question as to why Christians shouldn't be following Gods commands equally?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image60
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You are reminding me of something very profound that was stated when Jesus first came to town.
                    smile

                  2. Ericdierker profile image83
                    Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    If that were the case would God have made all birds equally beautiful?  Diversity is God made and wonderful. "Equal" in His eyes? Yes, the same no!
                    "All men are created equal in the eyes of God"  --- Bro that do not mean the same or equal on earth.
                    I have to suffer and struggle with the sad fact that I am so much smarter than you, yet I am given the ability to communicate equally with you, equal not the same ;-)

                    Let us agree that no two are the "same"

          2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Repeating: "Consider that spirit is in all matter. God is behind all. We can uproot the delusions of this world and realize Spirit itself. This takes  effort.  Christians pray, Yogis meditate. Buddhist practice right behavior. They are all on the road to the heaven within... which is located by tuning inward. Tuning inward takes effort. Yes, faith will begin the upward journey on the mountain toward God. When we reach the mountain top we realize, as Jesus said, "The kingdom of Heaven is within…"
            TWISI

            The opportunity to find Bliss is open to all through right effort and devotion to truth/reality.

            In my opinion, this is what Eric originally said in the OP.

            Full circle, to me, means we are done. Have a great day!

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry, I really have no idea what you're talking about, but have a great day, as well! smile

  10. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Consider that spirit is in all matter. God is behind all. We can uproot the delusions of this world and realize Spirit itself. This takes  effort.  Christians pray, Yogis meditate. Buddhist practice right behavior. They are all on the road to the heaven within... which is located by tuning inward. Tuning inward takes effort. Yes, faith will begin the upward journey on the mountain toward God. When we reach the mountain top we realize, as Jesus said, "The kingdom of Heaven is within…"
    Right?

    1. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The spirit of God is not in all matter; though all matter has spirit. Those who "reject" what HE says, are ALL on the WRONG path. They have another spirit.

  11. AshtonFirefly profile image82
    AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago

    Is it just me or is everyone getting frustrated because other people are not agreeing with "what Jesus said," when each person interprets "what Jesus said" differently? hmm Is Jesus gonna be mad at the person who really really tries but just happened to figure it up wrong?

    I wouldn't know, I'm not a Christian, just seems kinda funny

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      If there is a God he is up there slapping his head wondering how everyone got it wrong.

      1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
        AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thats...kinda what I was thinking. I thought maybe I was missing something...

      2. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        He knew that mostly everyone would get it wrong. He promised. No surprises.

        1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
          AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Have you gotten it right?

          1. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes! Unequivocally... wink
            He got it right! I say what he said. And even when I don't understand what I just said, he said the same. No worries.

            1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
              AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I don't think any Christian with you will argue if "He" got it right.

              They may, however, argue if you understood Him correctly. That's all that's going on here. Everybody is saying that the other person is misinterpreting Jesus' words. So...who's right? Upon what grounds? You saying that you're a really spiritual person and that it makes sense to you so it should make sense to everyone else? If Jesus himself isn't saying it, (which I doubt is happening) it is YOU speaking "in His name." this is why there's an unnecessary plethora of translations. Cuz nobody agrees on what he said. One of you is right, the other is wrong. Which is wrong? Jesus isn't here to tell you. All you have is the Bible. And yes, the Bible is Jesus' Word so you claim, but it still takes a human mind to understand it. Which are flawed. So even if I claimed the Bible is flawless, people certainly aren't. So how do you know you're not making a mistake?

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I quote from scripture to make what looks like my argument, but isn't. If another gives biblical quotes in context along the same lines, as scripture,  no problem. The spirit of God agrees.
                We fall into a trap when we "reject what just doesn't sound that loving to us," in favor of our own opinion of what is loving. God says what this life should look like. He wrote it in our hearts. And he wrote it for all to see. The spirit within the bible ALWAYS agrees with God, even when our hearts deceive us.

                1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
                  AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Never said anything about something sounding loving or not.

                  If God wrote the same thing on all people's hearts, then why don't they agree?

                  Interpretation.

                  It is your argument, because you're using your own perception and mind to interpret it. You can't think outside or escape your own human mind, which is prone to error. Therefore, any perception you have or interpretation you have is prone to error. Therefore it's possibly that what you're saying about God may be wrong.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image60
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    As we just heard, some reject what is written there.
                    Jesus says, "Stop, drop, and roll." We go, "Well you know Lord, the rest of the world ain't doin' that!!! You are so unfair! I'm going over here with the fair and loving and I will see you when you get your act together and be fair" they forget who the waymaker is...

    2. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I am not frustrated. My information comes directly from the bible. So easy, I didn't even have to think of answers on my own accord. No one is giving any bible sneezes to say that all paths lead unto God.

      1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
        AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        All Christians get their answers from the Bible.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          That depends. I think I was just speaking with two Christians who did not give a biblical account for what they said.
          Jesus said that many (there's that all-inclusive word again) false prophets will rise in his name. But he will say to them, "Depart from me..." we are MUCH safer when we lean toward his mind to navigate his path. Our own minds get lost.

          1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
            AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            My point is, they pulled from the Bible to get their info.

            This is exactly my point. You think it isn't Biblical because you understand the Bible differently. It doesn't change the fact that they are sincere-hearted people who are attempting to understand the Bible correctly and came to a different conclusion.

  12. AshtonFirefly profile image82
    AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago

    I welcome any other Christian input on what was meant by not being prone to error while discerning Biblical truths.

  13. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    Not so fast...

    1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
      AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Let me put it this way so there's no room for error.

      Do you believe that you, yourself, can ever be wrong about a Biblical truth or about discerning Biblical truth. Are you capable of erring while discerning Biblical truth?

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I myself am error in a nutshell. With the Lord as guide, I am not prone to error at all. Which is what I said before.

        1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
          AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So you never misunderstand His guidance when interpreting Scripture? Never?

          1. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes. But when I lean toward his spirit to discern, I can be an absolute fool and not err. (And I fit the criteria perfectly!!!) His spirit does not lie and it does not mislead. I say what he says. ...stay on solid ground.
            I believe what he says. I stay there. When I go outside the line, his spirit leaves the 99 sheep to rescue me from my ditch with truth. He never fails.

            1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
              AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Yes you can't err or yes you can?

              "But when I lean toward his spirit to discern, I can be an absolute fool and not err." I'm not sure if that was a typo or not.

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                The bible says "a fool will not err"
                No typo.

            2. Ericdierker profile image83
              Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I wonder why some of us are not led to see this amazing truth. Do you have like one gazillion followers?

              I know that sounds facetious and I do kind of make it sarcastic but if what you say is true then anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with the Spirit and I find that kind of claim a little unnerving.
              Unless you agree that the Spirit can tell different people different things.

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Have you checked your bible which illustrates the mind of Christ?  Can you make the claim that he says in scripture that he will tell one there is one path; then tell others there are many paths? I have been waiting for biblical confirmation.

  14. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    It is always possible to see beyond the personality and into the spirit and love them in the light of their true selves. It really is. If you go hug a tree, you will learn how to do this! LOL

  15. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    Possible error here. I gotta look at this last scripture because it may be saying that a fool will not (accidentally) find it. (The way of holiness)

    1. Ericdierker profile image83
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      This has devolved --

      Respect for universalism was and is the topic.

      1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
        AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry; I kind of helped get the subject on a tangent, so I'll help to bring it back.

        I think the possibility of a universal worldview is certainly an interesting and [possibly] appealing one. The main issue I have with religion is the ritualistic aspect of them. It suffocates. Universalism explains some things that specific religions alone can't, and allows for a more merciful, lenient view of God as well as a more helpful answer to such questions as "if someone hasn't ever known of Jesus Christ but believes in this other God out of ignorance, do they go to hell? etc."

        As appealing as this sounds, of course, I think it will get most of its opposition from the Scriptures which say that there is no way to God except through Jesus Christ; however, those who are not necessarily inclined to always take such a strict view of scripture, may not agree. My own personal study of Hebrew Scripture seems to indicate an ambiguity which may or may not allow for such an idea. I would need a refresher course in Biblical history and word usage, but I can't remember there being anything specifically that would go against the idea. The problem with translating the Bible is, there are many ambiguous words and contradictory phrases which would mean one or more completely different concepts (even the Scriptures which are so foundational to Christian doctrine,) so it's very difficult to say either way. It may seem cut and dry in the Bible translations we have, but it's really not. The translations we have are a lot of Hebrew translation mixed in with a lot of guesswork. We have very few Hebrew texts against which to compare the language and limited understanding of Word usage.

        A lot of people may seem the idea, however, as a cop-out. A way of being lazy and not following Jesus' life or commandments, and I can see why. The world, life, being, spirit, soul--it's all a confusing place, and I doubt any of us has it correct 100 percent.

    2. AshtonFirefly profile image82
      AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Again, so is that a yes, you can err, or a no, you can't? I didn't ask about fools. I'm asking about you. Can you or can't you err in discerning the truths of the Bible?

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        We covered that. smile I by myself... no good. I with spirit untouchable. For when God is for me, he's more than the world against.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          If you say you are touch with Holy Spirit, who are any of us to not believe you? Gandhi advised that one should believe a person. So, if you care so much for us that you open yourself up to Holy Spirit and bring us the message of Jesus, then we have to believe and appreciate your efforts. In my mind, you are hereby excused from claiming anything like IMO, since it is not your opinion but absolute truth according to reality and truth within and without.
          TWISI

          1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
            AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            So we just...believe anybody that claims to be in touch with the Holy Spirit?

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Gandhi said to believe a person. It was a principle of harmony with others. Their claims may be true. We can be open to the possibility, while we discern for ourselves. It harms no one to take others at their word. Does it diminish our own ability to discern the truth according to inner feedback within us?  My answer for myself: NO.

              Now, I have to remember this new understanding and not go all nuts on people who try to dictate and indoctrinate.
              Let them! What is to me? Finally! I am officially above my own reactionary inclinations.  I promise.

              1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
                AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Of course it's good to accept what people say as Possibly True, smile but to believe them?....kind of a leap, in my opinion. But being open-hearted and open-minded to people's thoughts never hurt anyone.
                I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt up to a point. But I won't believe them unless I'm fully convinced.
                I lived like that once...believing the best of everybody.... It tends to get you almost near killed.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactly! the *possibility* that it could be true. Even the Bible speaks of the importance of accurate discernment, I'm pretty sure.

                  1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
                    AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    It does.

                    What Cgenaea appears to be saying, however, is that she does not make errors in Biblical discernment of Scripture (because of the spirit, etc.) I've been attempting to clarify that . To simply believe someone when they say this is, to me, extremely risky. I didn't want to just up and assume she meant that, hence my constant attempt to get a direct answer.

                    (I'm not sure if your statement was in response to her and my discussion. In context, I assumed it was. But if it wasn't, then well just ignore the entire second paragraph smile  )

        2. AshtonFirefly profile image82
          AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Actually you never directly answered it, and I'm looking for a direct answer. Since you're dodging the question I take it that at the specific time you are discerning Scripture, you feel you are being led by the Spirit and therefore you feel that whenever you are discerning Scripture, you are always correct. Right?

          Saying that you are always correct when being led by the spirit is a self-defining statement and in no way answers the question. It simply is a reiteration of your own belief system. Of course that would be the case because you're being led by the spirit. That's like saying, I'm correct in discerning the Scriptures whenever I'm correct about discerning the Scriptures" (wouldn't that be the proper application for 'being led by the Spirit'? But you're ASSUMING that you are. And that's the very thing that I'm attempting to question. Full circle.

          How can you be sure you are, and are you capable of making an error in discerning Scripture?

          In other words, when you get online and talk to us on these forums and discuss Scripture with us, is it possible that you misunderstand "God's" guidance at any time when discerning Scripture and discussing it with us?

          Do you ever misunderstand Him and say something regarding Scripture that is in error? Please just directly answer the question. Yes or no.

          1. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes. Did you not just witness my possible correction and acknowledgment that I by myself cannot understand or correctly interpret anything.
            I "dodge" nothing. No need. smile I fear no repercussions of man or mouse smile and I do not fear mistakes. It is part of life. But spirit, as you saw in my example, will catch the error and correct often quickly.

            1. AshtonFirefly profile image82
              AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              "Yes. Did you not just witness my possible correction and acknowledgment that I by myself cannot understand or correctly interpret anything.
              I "dodge" nothing. No need. I fear no repercussions of man or mouse smile and I do not fear mistakes. It is part of life. But spirit, as you saw in my example, will catch the error and correct often quickly."

              Cgenaea please understand that what may make perfect sense to you, is completely confusing to me. You speak in a lot of (to me) spiritually strange ways which I don't really get.

              Thank you for the direct response. In response to that, I say this: if you are capable of making error, then perhaps it would be advisable to be open-minded to the possibilities of different interpretations of scripture. If you think it is in error, it does not necessarily follow that there be a strict reprimand of the person suggesting it, for chances are, they too follow your God with a pure heart and believe their own interpretation of Scripture (as you do) are completely in tune with your God's heart.They also feel that they are reading the spirit of God, I would imagine. If you're truly a Christian, isn't that the point? To follow God's spirit?. Now I realize in your religion that it is crucial to correct those who you feel are not interpreting Scripture correctly; however, I think that there is such room for misunderstanding and interpretation in the Bible, that some things aren't as black and white as they appear to be and may require further exploration. Not that you must accept it, but at least consider it. However, I do realize that there is some doctrine and dogma in your religion, so maybe that type of approach isn't considered okay. I have just found that the most productive way a Christian can get me to listen to them (or get other Christians to listen to them) is to have an open-minded approach. I honestly don't care if a Christian tells me if I'm a two-faced bitch who needs to burn in hell, as long as they took an open-minded approach and interest in my views before hand.

              Just a thought.

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Backing your thought pattern with scripture is what works for me. I can understand your approach for you. But people and their opinions are faltered. I speak bible. You do not understand, for that reason. This is a God conversation. The bible is spotlighted because for followers of Jesus, it is right thinking. Unfaltered and trustworthy. It is what God says.
                It is believed or it is not.
                Open-minded is a term for, consider OTHER than God for one minute. I cannot.
                My conversation is strictly biblical. The parts you do not understand are often direct quotes of truth (scripture).
                When I say what I say, I have checked into it. I know it to be accurate for me.
                Next time, if you think my sentence sounds funny, Google it... reading the words of Jesus was/is so awe-inspiring for me. I noticed the fact that it all ties together. Paying attention and getting feedback from other sources called "Godly counsel" (those who know God and are familiar with the total picture). Faith starts the ball rolling.
                Faith in who? Jesus
                Don't believe me...
                Read it for yourself, for real. The bible says that you must first believe that he is in order to expect to receive of him.
                I guess he must be partial to those believe him.
                Though all are welcome to come; they must come. Jesus will take anyone no matter what; if they come. He will meet one where  they are. But he will take them to where he is.
                Ok. Now back to the bible. (I got off-track to say those words to you free-style since you seem to need breakable material. smile )

                1. Prodio profile image61
                  Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  If you don't mind - let me ask you this: what does God do in His spare time?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image60
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Watch Oprah???

                2. AshtonFirefly profile image82
                  AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I wasn't directing the comment at the OP's concept of universalism. I was directing it at your other fellow believer's understanding of the Bible, NOT related to universalism, which was discussed in this forum. But it's okay.

                  Actually, I understand the Bible just fine. That wasn't the part of your convos that  I didn't understand. I don't really want to get into it, so nevermind.

                3. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  IN GENERAL and not directed to anyone in particular. The Way I See It: 1. Bible Thumping:  The expounding of the teachings of the Bible in "an aggressively evangelical way" (Dictionary) is a turn off to others.

                  2.  Corrections: Another (hurtful) turn off to others. It is really better to be respectful to others and not correct them *at the time of their mistake.* This is a Montessori principal used when working with young children in a group setting.  I have found it works well with anyone, regardless of age. Corrections cause emotional reactions within the psyche of the one being corrected. Corrections can be given at a later time as a way to instruct, (as in Hubs, perhaps.)

                  NO ONE likes to be corrected at the time of his/her mistake.

                  3. It is absolutely, utterly, IMPOSSIBLE to force others to believe the way we do. Forcing is taboo. Another Montessori principal.

                  a.) You can lead a horse to your watering hole, but you can't make him drink from it if he already likes his watering hole and it suits him perfectly well, even though YOU think its kinda mossy.

                  b.) You can't lead a camel to a watering hole when he has enough water stored up in his own hump.  When a camel is thirsty, he'll let you know. At that point he will gladly follow you to your watering hole.

                  In my view, HubPages is primarily a writing site. Many enter the forums to increae their writing skills. Communicating, by way of keyboarding to others, is a great way to increase:
                  Writing skills,
                  Spelling skills, (Thank you, spell check)
                  Logical thinking, (Thank you, atheists)
                  Objective thinking (Thank you, all)
                  Writing style (Thank you, me)
                  Creativity (thank you, HubPages )
                  Knowledge (Thank you, all contributing intellects and access to the internet.)
                  Punctuation
                   




                  Take it or Leave it.
                  Happy Sunday.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image60
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Happy Sunday!
                    Since your post was not directed to anyone in particular, I won't feel bad. And I wont remind you again how you feel about irritating lectures. wink
                    However, since you put it out there... you just gave many Montessori principles. Uh...I'm a Christian. I know not this voice.
                    It is no surprise that many consider the bible being aggressively spoken a bit of a turn-off. Does it surprise you???
                    Correction? Who corrects who in this conversation? Turn-off again? You should check what Jesus has to say about correction; then let his opinions of the matter weigh as much.
                    It is obvious that forcing grown-ups to do/think/say anything is impossible. Just look at how long you have been"guiding" me with no result.
                    I can lead the horse to the water and I can stand there with him and I may also gather that since he followed me down to the water with full knowledge of where he was going; that he will drink when he's ready. I will just ensure he is at good water. None of that mucky stuff.
                    I appreciate the many benefits of Hubpages for the writer. And I appreciate the opportunity to cross paths with you. smile

                  2. AshtonFirefly profile image82
                    AshtonFireflyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    This is awesome.

                  3. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    That's why I'm here. I also like the subject matter.

  16. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    But we devolve...

  17. DeniseAndrews profile image60
    DeniseAndrewsposted 2 years ago

    no i dont agree

  18. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 2 years ago

    A thought suddenly happened in my mind.
    According to scripture ;;;;;;;   God created tha world and everybody in it!    God chose the the children of Abraham to establish a nation and he is to be their God. In that manner he reveals his power through them.
        When did God create hell?
        Where is hell ?
        Does everyone that is not a dependent of Abraham and follow his God burn in hell?
         Did God create all people just to be sent to hell until Abraham came along so that he can show himself ?   And only those that worship him be allowed into heaven?
         When did this plan first come about?
          Was Hell a part of God's original plan?

           I don't think it was part of his original plan, and don't think it is now or ever will be.
        But what do I know ??

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      -its just unexplainable ancient history... I wouldn't worry about it.

      1. jonnycomelately profile image87
        jonnycomelatelyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Wonderful reply.... well done Kathryn.  smile

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        already said good night over there.

             Good night again.....

    2. Ericdierker profile image83
      Ericdierkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Jerami, when we witness hell on earth we see deep into the soul of man. God created man. And then in love He let man go. And man created his own hell.
      It has not been revealed to this old man yet but there must be a reason for my hell on earth. Today it is so I live as far from it as I can. And today is already a great day.
      God does not threaten to throw us into a Hell He made. (and on the 8th day God made hell ----- I did not read that anywhere) But he warns us that we can fall into that hell that we made if we do not come into the warming welcoming arms of Love, which He also did not make but in fact is.

      That is a bit of my take on the notions you raise.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        +1 times a million, trillion...

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        That is one of several ways in which I might have answered these questions.
            God did not created Hell on the eight day! 

            Jesus told them that The kingdom of heaven is within ... It stands to reason that free will allows that heaven and/or hell (our own making) resides within the psyche of mankind as well.

            Who said, "we are prisoners of our own mind"? 
             who said, "the truth will set us free"

  19. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    good night all.

 
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