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Why Does Religion NEED To Exist?

  1. Link10103 profile image80
    Link10103posted 2 years ago

    I can understand the positives of putting your faith in such and such religion, which is why I do not think religion as a whole should be completely eradicated, however in this day and age I honestly wouldn't mind if it was.

    My question is this: why does religion NEED to exist? If you say "So we have a moral guidelines to follow", you might as well not comment at all. If you get your morals from the holy texts of the 2 biggest religions of the world, you either cherry pick the parts you like or are a bigoted, murdering psychopath.

    I would like to say that I will delete/not approve of any comments that attempt to deflect questions posed by myself or other people, but since this is my first forum post I do not know what control I will have over the comments if any.  I have seen quite frequently in some of the recent forum posts of people posting questions for others to answer, yet completely ignore when those people answer said question and ask them their own in return and the forum poster resorts to mocking and ridicule. If you cannot prove you can hold an intelligent conversation, then do not bother commenting.

    1. Chris Neal profile image84
      Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Because God exists.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        And which god, out of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are you saying exists? And where is your proof that not only does god exist, but YOUR specific god exists? Simply saying something exists with nothing to back you up is not a valid response if you wish to be taken seriously.

    2. 0
      Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      This is a complicated question, because religion NEEDS to exist for many reasons.  First, I am going to answer this question from the point of view of a secularist: As someone said earlier, they may need religion to exist for them to have structure in their life and moral compass.  But the majority of people want to feel as if SOMEONE is looking out for them, and that SOMEONE cares about them.

      Now, from the point of view of a Christian, religion soley exists because, quoting Chris Neal, "God exists."  And by that I mean the ONE true God, the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. God created man in his own image so that He would have fellowship with man, and also because God wants us to worship Him.  I guess even a God wants to feel loved.  But God deserves worship because He is creator of all things, and He is good, pure, and just. Remember that He is just--He will discipline us if we don't act right, and the majority of us don't.

      Religion exists because God exists.  God exists because, if He didn't, we wouldn't exist either.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        And like I said to paradigmsearch, I can agree with that first part. However much I think the people who live like that are weak willed, I still see that as one of the positives of religion and will not hold it against them provided they do not try and make other people live the same way.

        And, like I asked Chris, can you prove that not only does god exist, but YOUR specific god? It would be one thing if you said that god exists to you personally, but to sit there and claim that your god is the one TRUE god over all others, especially the ones that predated Christianity, is beyond arrogance.

        "But God deserves worship because He is creator of all things, and He is good, pure, and just. Remember that He is just--He will discipline us if we don't act right, and the majority of us don't."

        I have already told you my viewpoints on these, none of which you ever really delved into with any type of logic, so I think I can skip this part for now.

        Can you prove that we wouldn't exist if god didn't? And before you deflect and ask the counter question to that, science cannot prove that we would exist if god didnt either, but there is alot more to go on from science than there is religion.

        1. 0
          Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I fail to understand why you consider one arrogant for simply believing one thing to be true.  Muslims who claim Allah is real are not "arrogant," they believe what they believe.  Arrogance has nothing to do with it.

          Of course I can't give you tangible proof that God is real; but I believe that God is who He says He is, and that Jesus is His son, who was risen from the dead after the third day. I cannot prove this happened, but I accept it as truth and I hold it to be truth because I believe.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            And I always fail to understand how you cannot comprehend simple sentences. I didnt say you were arrogant for believing that god exists, in fact I said if you believe that god exists PERSONALLY to you then there is no problem.

            Directly after that, I said that you are arrogant if you discount all other religions that existed in the past, exist in the present, and will exist in the future and say that YOUR religion is the one and only truth when most other religions claim the same thing.

            Heres a simple example: "X" religion came before "Z" religion. "X" religion claims to be the one and only true religion. "Z" religion comes along several decades/hundreds of years later and claims that it is the one and only true religion. How in the hell can you possibly say that "Z" religion, which came after "X", is somehow true when it didnt even exist before "X" religion? There is such a huge gap in logic that its astounding when I see people say such things.

            Definition of arrogance according to Webster: an insulting way of thinking or behaving that comes from believing that you are better, smarter, or more important than other people. If you claim your religion is the one and only truth, then you are also claiming that your's is better and more important than all the other ones. So yes, by definition you are being arrogant.

            1. bBerean profile image59
              bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              If you don't believe yours is correct and the others are wrong, you don't sincerely believe yours, do you?

            2. 0
              Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Would you call someone arrogant because they believe that purple is the most beautiful of colors, or that cats are more cute than dogs?  I do not claim that atheists or people of other religions are inferior to me, so I do not fit that definition of arrogance. 

              That Christianity was revealed to men thousands of years after other religions is the lie of Satan.  My God has been around since before time--He is first and last (alpha and omega).  All other religions came after.  After all, Adam and Eve were the first humans on the planet.  They believed in my God.

              I know that you're thinking I'm wrong because you'll say that man has existed for tens of thousands of years, but I believe those early humans were not like us.  We are homo sapiens--they were of another class of hominids.

    3. 0
      SirDentposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe you should try to have an intelligent conversation yourself. You stated

      Seems to me you are merely looking for a fight.  If you want to know about Jesus, I can help you with that.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        What fight am I picking? There is a surprising amount of killing and bigotry depicted in the bible, so if you were to take your morals from things such as that you would be a bigot and possibly a murderer yourself. If you only take morals from the good things and ignore the bad things, then you cherry pick what you want.

        So again, what fight am I picking, especially since I said for the people who believe morals should be taken out of the holy texts to not comment at all? I would assume those that believe that, read that part of the forum topic, and still comment are the ones looking for a fight.

        Completely unrelated I know, but do you plan on answering the forum question at all?

    4. savvydating profile image84
      savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Your assertion that "If you get your morals from the holy texts of the 2 biggest religions of the world, you either cherry pick the parts you like or are a bigoted, murdering psychopath" is a rather narrow view of what the Bible represents and how it has influenced all of Western civilization. At any rate, if you are interested, you might read up on some atheists views on how Christianity has helped society and humanity. Indeed, the ethics of the Bible contain the underpinnings of laws that have shaped all of North America... which is why we enjoy more freedom and an innate acceptance of humanitarian beliefs, unlike other countries such as North Africa, the Middle East and even India.
      Here's a book for you.  http://www.amazon.com/An-Atheist-Defend … 1592578543

      Frankly, I've not read it, as I am already aware of how similar our secular laws are to the 10 Commandments, when all is said and done. As for the other popular religion, Islam, it has not embraced the same humanitarian tenets as Christianity, which is why their societies have not flourished and have, in effect, remained stagnent. So my answer to your question is that the religion of Christianity is needed because it contains needed precepts to grow personally as well as to grow a society successfully. Though we are imperfect (as is everything) the overall history of Western civilization has proved this premise to be factual, whereas your premise is short-sighted..

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        My premise is short sighted? I believe the question I asked was why does religion need to exist. Like I said to someone else, religion does not solely encompass Christianity, so why are you trying to justify the need for its existence only when there are hundreds of other religions out there? Some of which I would assume have a much less bloody history than Christianity while still maintaining good morals.

        " Indeed, the ethics of the Bible contain the underpinnings of laws that have shaped all of North America... which is why we enjoy more freedom and an innate acceptance of humanitarian beliefs, unlike other countries such as North Africa, the Middle East and even India."

        So what you are saying is that each of these countries are in decline because they have not completely adopted Christianity? If that is what you are indeed saying, where does your arrogance end?

        1. savvydating profile image84
          savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, of course that is what I am saying. These other countries and religions, which I mentioned previously, have failed and continue to fail; this is a simple, historical fact.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Just a little bit more clarification on my part. Are you saying that all religions other than Christianity have failed, are failing, and will continue to fail unless they adopt the teachings of Christianity?

            1. savvydating profile image84
              savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I am saying that all of Western civilization has adopted Christian ethics, which have indeed formed the laws of North America...Period...and that other societies have not had this privilege. Also, North Americans underestimate how these ethics are ingrained into our psyche, having taken them for granted. Nevertheless, we are unique in expressing and implementing our humanitarian ethics into our laws.

              1. Link10103 profile image80
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                You did not confirm or deny my assumption in my very clear question.

                1. savvydating profile image84
                  savvydatingposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  It has been my experience that when (most) atheists don't have an answer to a comment, they become dismissive; thus, you state that your assumption is clear. That is not a valid argument or a meaningful response. You posed a question: "...why does religion NEED to exist? Your response is quite typical and disappointing. Surely, you have no desire to be "typical."
                  Do you care to expound upon your so called "clear" assumption?

                  1. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    My question to you was this:

                    "Just a little bit more clarification on my part. Are you saying that all religions other than Christianity have failed, are failing, and will continue to fail unless they adopt the teachings of Christianity?"

                    Is that expounded enough for you, considering how it is a yes or no question? The very clear question I asked directly to you, you failed to answer. However biased I find your previous comment to be, you already answered my forum topic question, so why would I be asking you to answer the same question twice?

                    Keep up with the comments. You hint that I am being dismissive yet you are the one that completely ignored my question. Twice.

            2. Kiss andTales profile image22
              Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              People tend to mix chistain up with the true meaning ,example a man, a man in the physical is called a man, but what defines a man is something different, example a man as man up to your words and actions, or responsibilities , we will admit not all men are men under that those titles. The same with Christains ,not all claiming to be christains are , and not all are living up to the responsibilities of a christain. And people will admit how true this is. But just as true there are real men that are responsible for that title in every way. There is a true Christain. It is fact people have never crossed the path of a real one.

          2. Say Yes To Life profile image86
            Say Yes To Lifeposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            SavvyDating - China has had the highest standard of living in the world for most of human history.  The state it's in today has existed only the past 200 years.  That is because it closed itself off from the world, so its secrets would not be stolen.  As a result, it lagged behind in the Technological Revolution.  Religion had nothing to do with it - and in fact, it is rising as a world power again.
            India, which also had a high standard of living in the past, has produced 3 major world religions, all of which predate Christianity.  It is believed during the 18 years of silence, Jesus travelled there to study Buddhism; this is why there are so many similarities between the 2 religions.  It too is coming back as a world power, and Buddhism is one of the fastest growing religions in the world.  It also has the distinction of being the only major world religion with no history of holy wars.
            While Christianity has a lot to offer, it is not the only path to enlightenment, and in fact, considering its bloody history, leaves much to be desired.

            1. Link10103 profile image80
              Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              As enlightening as that was, I have a sneaky suspicion it will fall on deaf ears.

            2. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Christianity's bloody history is a fact. So is Buddhism's. I'm not sure where you're going with that specific point.

              1. Link10103 profile image80
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                The person Say Yes was replying to was asserting that all other countries outside of North America are in decline because they have not adopted the teachings of Christianity, which was the most asinine thing I have read in this entire forum so far. At least until I saw someone justify genocide that is.

                The point was to provide countries that are clearly not in decline because of that and have produced their own heavy hitting religions. In regards to bloody history, which one has more blood on its hands? Christianity or Buddhism? I would say Buddhism, provided that it is true that it has no history of holy wars since I really have next to no knowledge of its history. So would that not imply that Buddhism would be morally better to follow than Christianity in this regard? Lesser of two evils and such, if you have to look at it that way.

                1. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  No one justified genocide. Genocide is a concept for humans, not for God. You must remember a few things: God brilliantly and magnificently created every person, every tribe and every nation. He also wants the gospel preached to every tribe and nation, so that the new earth will be filled with all peoples from everywhere. Clearly, then God loves and values all people from all places. But if he determines to bring down judgment, who can stand? The OT is not the only place where we see that God is both the God of love and mercy, yet also the God of judgment and justice. We see it in Revelation and elsewhere; we see it in the judgment that is coming upon the whole earth. God is the author of life - that means he determines when it begins and when it ends, and he gives the only true, complete, valid judgment.

                  Praise God that he has offered mercy and grace in place of judgment! Praise God that because of his daily mercies we are not consumed! Praise God that ALL people, from every tribe and nation, may come to God through Jesus Christ, the great equalizer and the Savior of all people everywhere!

                  1. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Hate to burst your bubble, but God is also a concept of humans.

                    I really am truly scared of people such as yourself now. Judgement? Justice? If the flood really happened, and please feel free to prove that as well in addition to your god, men women children babies and unborn babies were slaughtered by god for the evil of others. There is no way of getting around that, can you honestly sit there and tell me children/babies/unborn babies were so evil that they NEEDED to be eradicated off the face of the planet? And for you to continually say that god had his reasons and knew what he was doing...who are you to speak for god himself? You have absolutely no idea what he thinks...but you claim to, at least until something horrible happens then excuses get yanked out of the bottomless hat of ignorance. Convenient...

                    You must not have any issues going out and murdering babies due to their inherent sin yes? Im sure you will turn around and say that you love babies and such...well are you disobeying god then? If he had no problem drowning thousands if not millions of them, I'm sure you should have no problem either. Of course it would not surprise me for you to backtrack out of this already assbackwards logic and somehow make sense of it all, as you attempted to do with genocide.

                    Maybe you can answer this side question that Sed decided not to elaborate on (the theme of not answering questions still continues it seems), but if Noah and his family were the only human survivors of the flood...how did they repopulate the earth? If you decide to answer that, please think carefully on it.

                2. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  If you absolutely must view a choice of religions as 'the lesser of two evils' then I would agree that it would be better not to look at religion at all. Of course, I don't base it on that, the core question is still, "Is it true?"

                  1. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    But if you can't demonstrate it to be true,  what good is saying its true?

                  2. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Rather than "the lesser of two evils", couldn't you just say "the greater good"?  Buddhism still wins, so the result is the same and truth becomes a part of the answer (given that evil is always a lie to a religion).

                    But I doubt you are really concerned with truth anyway...or have you actually examined more than a few thousand religions in detail, searching for that truth?

                  3. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    If you dont base it on the bloody history, what was the point of picking that one piece out of Say Yes' entire comment? What point were you trying to make by stating that bloody history between Christianity and Buddhism is a fact?

        2. stanfrommarietta profile image78
          stanfrommariettaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          One might wonder if America is in decline because of its religions.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Religion alone? I doubt it, but I have no problems believing it is a major player.

    5. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
      LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Religion does not NEED to exist, but, RELATIONSHIP NEEDS to exist.... Christians have a personal, undeniable relationship with almighty God. To the unbeliever this is foolishness, because the natural mind cannot comprehend the reality or even the possibility of such a thing.

      All Christians are not "deep" in the knowledge or the history of the world to give the intellectual person a satisfying understanding of "why" they believe. So, we simply tell you that Jesus loves you... the power in those simple words is the power to change the world. This is proven by the fact that it has done just that....

      Jesus Loves you Link10103... He always has and He always will, whether you believe Him or not... It doesn't matter, because He will never "not love you"

      1. 0
        Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Again, well said.

      2. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I can agree that relationships need to exist, and by that I mean relationships between people, not invisible deities that cannot be proven and judge everything you will ever do in life.

        I am by no means considered a truly intellectual person. I find myself intelligent, as in I can think rationally, and at the very last I am not an idiot. So it would not take much for a believer to convince me that their god is real in terms of explanations/evidence. And yet...none has ever been provided.

        "So, we simply tell you that Jesus loves you"

        Well then, absolutely no proof of that what so ever yet you say it is true. Does that mean I can say one eyed unicorns that shoot lasers out of their eyes and poop solid gold loves you as well? Highly doubt that unicorn exists, yet that is essentially what your logic allows me to do. Of course to any rationally minded person that is ludicrous to say but to say "Jesus loves you" is somehow more accepted.

        "Jesus Loves you Link10103... He always has and He always will, whether you believe Him or not... It doesn't matter, because He will never "not love you"

        Until of course me along with all other non believers/believers of different religions are sent to hell for not accepting jesus in our hearts...

    6. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Religion doesn't NEED to exist, but it does because it supplies hope to those who can't supply their own.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Well said

    7. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Religion doesn't NEED to exist, but you already know that and you already know I think that.

      I do think that even if we got rid of it something LIKE it would simply takes it place.

      So I'll just say what the best case scenario is, religion becomes like what's known as a "fandom", similar to Trekkies, Whovians and the more recent Bronies. In other words people still cherish their religious stories, they still read them, they still dress up as the various characters and can still celebrate various holidays BUT they admit that they know its make believe. Similar to the way Comic-Con works, people love their various fictional canons, they gather at conventions and bond with fans of the same thing.

      This would have a lot of advantages, for example religious wars would basically be a thing of the past, existing only as "flame wars" online and the occassional debate of fans at a convention. At a place like comic-con you have fans of everything and anything, imagine all religions gathered together in that way, peacefully co-existing and enjoying their religious "beliefs" while actually not believing they're literally true.

      1. 0
        Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Uhhhh.  Nope. 

        Quick!  To the Nerdcave!

        1. Link10103 profile image80
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So you are saying that you continue to want a world where people constantly slaughter each other because they cannot agree on who's god is true rather than have everyone come together as friends and still believe in their own personal gods?

          Fantastic input, thank you.

      2. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        What a world we would live in if that "something" else was actually Trekkies, Whovians, and Bronies fighting each other.

        Scary thoughts begone!

    8. sibtain bukhari profile image61
      sibtain bukhariposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Religion needs to exist for humanity,

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        That is a very vague answer, but an answer nonetheless. Can you explain why?

        1. sibtain bukhari profile image61
          sibtain bukhariposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Religion is conscience,the development of moral existence of man,the evolution of ego,the civilization and humanization of the man,therefore, religion being source of morality,law,knowledge ,science and human development is required to be existed to serve this purpose,otherwise,we will go away from humanity and will establish  a world of ''modern animals''.

    9. oceansnsunsets profile image87
      oceansnsunsetsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Since it is possible that there might be more to reality than our five senses can apprehend, it would then make sense that there are people responding for various reasons to ideas found in religions.  It can make a lot of sense of the rest of reality as we know it, and that we do apprehend with our senses in the material world.

      I don't think its possible for all religions to be true, logically, but it doesn't mean all are false.  Add to that, what is religion anyway? 

      You mention murdering, bigoted sociopaths, or something like that.... We get those without any religion whatsoever, also.  So it comes down to our different views, religious or not.  Our views match up against reality, or they do not.  I find that many people without any religious commitment express quite a lot of faith at times to help maintain their views, when they are further examined.  It doesn't bother me, but I wonder if it shouldn't bother them that on the one hand, they might be against things like faith in the unseen or unproven, etc.  When really it is what they are also doing in actuality, in actions, which speak so much louder than words.  When you see one's words and actions not matching up, we all know we must go with the actions, as people say all kinds of things.  Its alarming to hear people talk about eradicating things like religion, as if maniacs in history haven't already tried that and been found deeply, morally, lacking.  (At least.)  The people that deny or ignore the facts surrounding much of history, are often the ones claiming moral superiority, and make comments nudging in the direction of repeating some history, or supporting ideas that do.  That this doesn't occur to them to be the case, is alarming for all of us as human beings that just want to live our fairly short lives in relative freedom and happiness.

    10. Don W profile image82
      Don Wposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      In my view religion is the result of four things: 1) self-awareness; 2) the human capacity to believe in a positive outcome despite negative material conditions (hope); 3) the capacity to picture things in our mind's eye and combine different things within a mental image without a physical model (imagination) and 4) the biological imperative to form cooperative social groups to the exclusion of "others" to compete for limited resources (families, tribes, nations, countries etc.)

      I think these four characteristics have become common because they increased the fitness of our ancestors, i.e. their ability to survive and reproduce. So it's not so much that we "need" religion. It's more that religion is a side effect of certain attributes that have proven beneficial. Religion is a manifestation of hope, imagination and social tendency, enhanced through self-awareness. As such, it's irrelevant whether we think religion has value or not. While those four elements exist, I think religious belief is bound to exist in one form or another, and to understand the positive and negative aspects of religion fully, we have to understand its constituent parts.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        We probably will never understand religion fully until we stop killing each other because we can't agree who's god has the bigger...shoe size. Lol.

        As I dont see that happening any time soon, or ever really, might not be possible to understand it completely. A shame.

    11. realtalk247 profile image74
      realtalk247posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      God Exists

      An atheist once acknowledged that if everyone followed "God's"/religious rules, the world would be a better place.

      Absolute power corrupts.  Being subject to rules, consequences, and a higher power best serves the needs of society.

      1. 0
        Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I think you are absolutely right.  Only God can handle absolute power, without being corrupt.

        1. JMcFarland profile image91
          JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          special pleading.  Nothing can handle absolute power except for this one thing - and I'm just saying it's this one thing without any way to demonstrate or prove it whatsoever.  Just cause I say so.

      2. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        -Can you prove it? To anyone that asks, not just me?

        -Sorry of this offends you but I cant help but feel you are lying on your second point. I have a hard time believing that any atheist would acknowledge that, otherwise why would they still be an atheist then...

        -If you cannot prove you can live your life fully and morally correct without a higher deity watching over your shoulder threatening you with hell, then I guess you are correct.

      3. Disappearinghead profile image88
        Disappearingheadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        The Islamic Sunni ISIS organisation is attempting to apply God's law in Iraq and Syria, do you think those are better places as a result? Would you really want Mosaic law applied to where you live? No I don't think so which is why Christians say God's law no longer applies.

      4. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, it's been my experience that democracies work best.

        1. Link10103 profile image80
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Time to move to Canada for its outstanding medical prowess.

          Legend has it, even ducks have health insurance....

          -unrelated comment inserted in thread-

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            If you've found an injured duck I'm sure the right people would help it out free of cost. Here is a little know fact. Visitors to Canada need heath insurance, however refugees get free health care wether they are granted status or not.

            1. Link10103 profile image80
              Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The definition of Utopia - Canada

    12. gmwilliams profile image85
      gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The majority of humankind is afraid to take sole moral responsibility and to be accountable in their lives.  They are afraid to own their own spiritual power and to make moral decisions.   They feel more comfortable to depend upon a religious authority or religious authorities to tell them what is right and wrong.  They need this religious assurance because they feel that they aren't capable of having their own moral compass as to what is right and wrong.   They need a PATERNAL/MATERNAL figure to "look" after them.

      1. Cat333 profile image82
        Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        For me this is not even a factor in my belief in and love for my Lord. I'd be fine using a simple "hurt no one" guide for behavior. I prefer to form my own opinions, make my own decisions and so on. My devotion to my Lord is for entirely different reasons.

  2. paradigmsearch profile image91
    paradigmsearchposted 2 years ago

    Many people need religion for one simple reason.

    To escape a reality that sucks.

    I don't blame them.

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      And I can understand that, yet some of those people attempt to prove that their religion is the only truth to live by without actually proving anything. It really makes no sense, especially for people who are too weak to accept that the reality we live in blows most of the time.

  3. 0
    Emile Rposted 2 years ago

    You might as well know, up front, you have no control over comments. You can't delete what you don't want to hear.

    Religion must serve some purpose. The majority of humanity aligns with one religion or the other.

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It has nothing to do with what I dont want to hear, I could care less if other people's viewpoints are different than mine. But if someone is asked a question, especially if it pertains to possibly changing my own viewpoint, then they are expected to answer it unless they very clearly state "I do not wish to answer". Simple really. Its an insult to sit there and deflect yet demand answers to their own questions when they do not show respect and answer other peoples.

      What purpose MUST religion serve, other than to (non)explain things that either simply do not have an answer or that we currently lack the means to answer?

  4. Whidbeywriter profile image83
    Whidbeywriterposted 2 years ago

    I believe religion exists for the purpose of spreading the gospel as Jesus told the diciples to go and spread the good news to all the world. It also exists for those to gather and praise God. I watched a film once where Jesus himself or the man protraying Jesus said he hated religion because it is man created not God created. A relationship with Jesus and God, I believe is what is the most important and how we live our lives and treat others.

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I do hope you realize that religion does not solely encompass Christianity. To claim your religion is the only truth is one of the most arrogant things you can do unless you can prove that it is, which to date no one has been able to do with ANY religion, so good luck with that.

    2. 0
      Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I think this is a very excellent answer.  I could not have said it better myself.  You are NOT arrogant in the least for maintaining that our religion is the true religion.  Furthermore, our religion is based on faith--blessed is he or she who believes in something he or she cannot see--as opposed to believing only what can be seen.  The point is, we can't see God, but we have faith that He is real and that He is going to do what He says He will.  We don't need tangible proof.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Why wouldnt you agree with someone else who shares your exact viewpoint that evidence to believe in something is not needed? Who would have guessed.

        As insane as I think it for someone to think "God exists because he does" with absolutely no proof, that is still your own personal belief and I cannot say anything about that. But again, when you sit there and say that YOUR religion is the one and only true one is indeed arrogance. There is no escaping that, you are not only discounting all other current religions in the entire world at that point but also all the ones that predated Christianity. That is like me saying that since I can pick up a box, I must be the best box picker upper in the entire world, past present and future no questions asked.

        1. 0
          Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          If you believe you can pick up that box better than anyone, it doesn't matter what anyone else says.  YOU are the best. 

          It is not arrogant to think that purple is the most beautiful color.  It is not arrogant to think that one woman is more attractive than another woman.  Therefore, it is NOT arrogant to hold Christianity above all other religions.

  5. peeples profile image90
    peeplesposted 2 years ago

    It must exist because many humans need the comfort that is provided by religion. If it didn't have a need it would not have made it this long, and so many people would not believe in religions. Now if you ask "why do they need religion" That is a whole different issue that really can't be answered from my viewpoint without coming off as rude. To me religions are great as long as they are only impacting those that choose to believe them.

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Perfectly said.

  6. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
    LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago

    Well said Lybrah...

  7. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
    LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago

    In all of my time online, I have noticed one thing particularly... those who do not believe in God seem to be angry with, frustrated with, and down-right contentious toward those who do believe in God.

    This confuses me.

    If I don't believe in something, why do I care if someone else believe in it? Why would I try with any amount of enthusiasm to try and convince the person to not believe?

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Who am I trying to convince to not believe in god? I am pretty sure I stated that if someone believes that god exists personally to them, then that is their own belief and nothing can be said about it. Do try and read/understand already existing comments before posting your own.

      And to ask why non believers care about what believers believe in...I really lack the words to express what I think about that without getting myself banned. Why did/do believers care about what non believers disbelief to the point of constantly trying to convert them, or even committing crimes against them? Who was the first to push their beliefs on others, violently I might add?

      1. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
        LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        There you go.... looking for a fight. I never said that you were trying to do anything... (read the post). I said that I notice that those who do not believe in God get angry, etc... with those who do believe in God.

        I also question why you, modern day person, should let what I believe be of any issue to you...

        Most atheists do not realize that they are very religious in their "preaching" against religion. I find it ironic that they, (not you) cannot see this.

        1. Link10103 profile image80
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I personally do not get angry with those that believe in god. Again, whatever the amount is that I have said this, if you have a personal faith in god and such, I do not care. But if you (not you specifically) attempt to push your beliefs onto me or others when we clearly do not care for them, then yes I will get angry. Not because those beliefs include god, but because the person does not respect me enough to shut up and leave me alone.

          And if you were not saying that I personally was trying to do something, what was the point of including that part of the comment if you did not intend to group me into your description? What possible fight am I looking for if I am not only telling to read and comprehend what I wrote, but asking you additional questions on top of the forum question to boot? Questions you neglected to answer I might add.

          1. 0
            Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            You say you don't care and what not, but you do care, or you wouldn't have created this forum topic.

            1. Link10103 profile image80
              Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Do you even know what the word "comprehension" means? It seems pretty clear to me that no matter how many times I say something to you or how often I repeat the same thing with as much detail as I can personally provide, you just do not get it. You dont even pretend to, I feel slightly insane having to constantly explain my words to someone who has a Masters in English was it?

              I do not care what people believe in, at all, unless they attempt to push their beliefs onto me. Is that crystal clear, because I can't imagine an easier way of putting that. If so, lets move on.

              I would like to know WHY people have such beliefs, but again I do not truly care either way. If I really cared enough to know why Johnny down the street believes in flying space gorillas, I would do everything in my power to try and understand why he believes in what he does. I dont though, so if Johnny says he believes in flying space monkeys and leaves it at that without trying to convince me his belief is true, I will not continue to pester him about his belief. But if he sits there and attempts to convince me that his beliefs are true with no actual evidence, why on earth would I not constantly question why he believes in the things he does? If you say something is true, back it up. Otherwise whatever your claim is is either false or unknown at the time, you cannot state it as fact.

              I am at the point where I have to actually ask you, as if you were a child, if you understood what I said at all. So here it goes, did you understand what I said in this comment or not?

              1. 0
                Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I understand what you are asking.  I understand you perfectly.  It is YOU who doesn't understand ME.  You say you don't care if Person X believes in flying monkeys or whatever, but you WOULD pass judgement onto him for doing so, and you'd want to why he believes what he does.  So you DO care.  You say you don't have anything against people who hold beliefs but it is evident on here that you are very biased and often condescending to me and other people on this forum.  As someone else said, non-believers seem to be less than kind and understanding to believers.  You think people who believe are stupid.  You want to know why "they are stupid."  You care.

                1. Link10103 profile image80
                  Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  How do you know for an absolute fact I would pass judgement on them (and what judgement are you talking about exactly)? Sure, I would by lying if I said I didnt think he had a couple screws loose for believing in flying space monkeys with absolutely no proof what so ever, but does that mean that he is a crazy person? Not at all. Does it mean I should admit him to an insane asylum? Nope. Does it mean I should run away screaming if he decides to talk to me? Not in the slightest.

                  And I also know for a fact that I said if Johnny down the street believes in space monkeys but does not attempt to convince me it is true since he has no proof, I would not continue to pester him about why he believes what he does. There would be no point since he would never be able to explain why, so why continue to bother him about it especially if he does not care if I believe the same thing?

                  I learned to read and comprehend sentences when I was in elementary school, not too sure about you however.

                  If I am condescending to YOU personally it is because I choose to be because of your previous interactions with me. No, I do not have anything against people who have beliefs, however outlandish I personally find them to be. I don't know if that thing called logic wormed its way into your brain or not, but did you assume that my entire family is full of non believers? As far as I know, in my immediate family I am the only one with the viewpoint that I have. Everyone else is christian. Pretty sure I dont hate them, judge them, call them idiots left and right for their beliefs, vocally or mentally.

                  I DO have a problem with people who claim that those outlandish beliefs are true with no proof what so ever. In your particular case, the "people are stupid" part of your comment holds some truth. In general though? I already told you in another forum that it takes quite a bit of prodding for me to determine someone is stupid, so no I do not automatically assume everyone who hold a belief in some higher deity is an idiot as I have told you multiple times already.

                  Quick question for you, is Titen unkind? You know, the person who tried as hard as he could to tolerate your ignorance on his posts for about a year until he just got fed up with it? There is only so much people can tolerate before they stop caring, and I am at that point with you now. With that said, I recommend choosing your words as best as you can before replying to me from now on. I can guarantee no direct insults since that would result in a ban, but as far as being nice goes? That luxury, which you neglected to give me initially, will no longer be given to you.

                  1. 0
                    Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You know what?  Perhaps if that is your attitude, I will no longer reply to your comments, as I no longer reply to Titen's posts.  I apologized to you, and you did not accept it.  It says in the bible: "You must forgive those who have wronged you, because if you do not forgive others, I will not forgive you."  It saddens me that you would hold on to a few snippets of conversation had early on, and not move forward like that of a mature man.  However, you are not mature, and I need to remind myself I am speaking with a child, a child with no empathy, grace, or class.  You can say you're intelligent if you want, but you are lacking in those other important qualities. Even if you are only mean to me, it still says something about you to other people.

    2. bBerean profile image59
      bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Leslie, you want to use [ ] instead of < > to get your command recognized.

      1. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
        LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks... It has been a long time since I wrote any code. I knew it was something and I was too lazy to click on the formatting tab... smile

    3. 0
      Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I absolutely agree with you---I thought the same but felt like the minority before reading your post.  Finally, someone who agrees!

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Says the person who constantly flocked to anti religious posts and condemned non believers. Do you ever actually think before you speak?

        1. 0
          Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Condemned non-believers?  I could easily say you think everyone who believes is stupid and that you are smarter than they are.  That makes me think of a certain word you defined recently...

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I don't see how you could easily say that when I told you before I do not consider myself to be smart. I consider myself intelligent, meaning I am capable of thinking rationally with logic, cannot say the same about you though (and no, that last part has NOTHING to do with your beliefs).

            I also remember telling you, however many times at this point since I lost count, that I do not care what others believe in provided they do not try to convince others their belief is true with no evidence. Random guy down the street believes in modern day fire breathing dragons that kidnap princesses. Am I going to assume he is completely off his rocker for believing as such? Not entirely, because until I interact with him and see what kind of person he is I have no reason to be a judgmental asshat to a guy I know nothing about. If put into the situation, I will attempt to know him and then decide if he is indeed off his rocker.

            Lets turn this slightly on you for a second. Why do you assume that all Christians that do things you do not personally agree with are not true Christians? Why do you think that seekers of god are somehow not worthy enough to see his signs while you are? Do you know those other Christians you disagree with enough to say they are not true believers? Do you know them enough to say for certain that they are not TRULY seeking god or that they have been blinded by satans lies? No? Well that certain word I defined earlier would apply directly to you in this case.

            I love how you did not try to defend yourself in regards to "condemned non believers". Are you saying that is in fact what you were doing, condemning people you had just met simply because they said that they do not believe in Jesus? I personally know that is what you were doing, but I would like to clarify for others as well.

            1. 0
              Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I am just trying to help spread the word that Jesus saves all people from a bad end.

              1. Link10103 profile image80
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                And like I have told you in the past, spreading your word is fine.

                But when people clearly do not care to listen to your word, do not insist that your word is the only truth and that it MUST be followed, especially with absolutely no evidence to prove that what you say is true. If you want to personally believe that jesus saves people from a bad end, be my guest. But keep it that way, personal.

  8. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 2 years ago

    Link10103, you pose a very interesting question, but you couch it with a lack of understanding on your part.

    The Bible was written in code by Kabbalists. Understanding is impossible without the proper code.

    Your claim that "you either cherry pick the parts you like or are a bigoted, murdering psychopath," is both quaintly short-sighted and understandable. You do not have the proper code. Also, you do not think in spiritual terms, but in the physical. Cause (spirit) is superior to effect (physical).

    The current religions of man are corrupt, because Ego corrupts everything.

    The only True religion is Love. But most people have no idea what love really means. Love is putting the needs of someone else ahead of your own. Love has no self-concern. Christ talked of this "religion" many times. But men, with egos, don't listen very well.

    God is love. If you view the details in the Bible with this perspective, then it starts to make a little more sense.

    Without True religion, humanity would sink into oblivion, civilization torn down by action-reaction egoism and wailing and gnashing self-interest. The only real moral ground is one based on love. And that's what the Bible is all about. If you think differently, then you're seeing with physical eyes (literal), than spiritual eyes (truth).

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The bible was written in code...

      So I take it from your comment that not only do you personally have the key to deciphering the bible, but the original transcripts to decode directly from? This is provided I am interpreting the correct version of the word "code" from you.

      If I were to view the details in the bible, mainly the parts that talk about mass death, beating/owning slaves, and child murdering with the perspective of god's love, then its suddenly supposed to make sense?

      I would agree with most of what you said about Love if it didnt seen you were attributing Jesus to being the first one to experience/talk about it. Love existed well before Christianity was even introduced to the world and will exist long after it vanishes from this world as well.

      1. 0
        Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        That is true, because as I said in the comment below, God is the FIRST and the LAST.  Therefore, God, who is love, has always existed.  Jesus may have been born physically 2000 years ago, but in heaven, He always existed as part of the Trinity.  He was always here.

        1. Cat333 profile image82
          Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Amen!!

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Hello Cat. Since it seems you obviously agree with what Lybrah said there, I want to ask you something. Do you hold Christianity as the one and only true religion?

            I actually think I asked you this before...either that or it was Ocean.

            1. Cat333 profile image82
              Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              "Do you hold Christianity as the one and only true religion?"

              I suppose that depends on your definition of "Christianity" and your definition of "religion".

              Do I hold God (I AM) as the One True Creator of all? YES
              Do I hold Jesus Christ, who died and rose again to make us "right", as the One Way to God? YES
              Do I hold that the door has been opened to all and all may come to the Father this same way, through the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? YES

              1. Link10103 profile image80
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I wasnt really under the impression that there could be different definitions, personal or otherwise, of Christianity and religion, but I guess I meant their default definitions?

                I dont think you necessarily answered my question either, so again, do you hold Christianity as the one and only true religion?

                Please, my patience is next to zero at this point. If I ask a question to someone, I really expect an answer unless they clearly say that they decline to answer it rather than deflect and then accuse me of looking for a fight, which has happened at minimum 4 times already.
                I will also let you know ahead of time that if you answer yes to that question, then that implies you think all other religions are false and that your's is superior, to which I will have further questions to ask as well.

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I have no idea why I do this, yet I continue to attempt to help you understand. It might be because I think you want to. I don't know, but here goes.

                  The meaning of words evolve as society does. Look up Christianity. See how many sects there are. With tens of thousands to choose from it isn't difficult to see that the term can have vastly different meanings to at least tens of thousands of people.

                  Religion, also, is a word not limited to one definition, nor are the definitions limited to beliefs in any deities.

                  It's kind of like the terms burger, chicken salad, steak. If you walk into any restaurant what you will be served when ordering any will differ. Are they the same, because the same term is used to order?

                  The word hunger has vastly different meanings. You have, I'm sure, said you were hungry from time to time. Would you use the term if standing in front of a victim of famine?

                  Anyone participating in this forum knows there are no 'default' definitions. You can't have a meaningful discussion without a meeting of the minds. I'm beginning to see that you might not find meaningful discussions on this topic because you appear to be demanding everyone see everything in the black and white of simple yes/no answers on a topic that is one of the most prone to shades of grey.

                  1. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I asked the question with no intention of meaning anything outside of what is being asked, so I cant sit there and define what I am asking when it is already clearly defined.

                    As it stands, that question was very black and white indeed, and like I mentioned I am pretty sure I asked Cat that before and she answered it directly. However I am not sure if I am remembering the correct answer or if it was even Cat to begin with, but the question was answered then.

                2. 0
                  Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I can tell you that I hold Christianity as the one true religion, I believe it to be true, but I do respect others beliefs and find learning about other cultures fascinating, believe it or not. 

                  Link, it is obvious that you are searching for the truth, for God.  But perhaps you are looking for God in the wrong place.  What exactly do you wish to learn on these forums?  Everyone is going to have different viewpoints, but I don't know that you are going to find God on a forum. Perhaps the answer is to read the New Testament or consult a pastor or Christian counselor.  You may have to see things a little differently.

                  I don't understand why your patience is wearing thin.  I know you won't like this, but I am going to continue to pray for you.  I pray that God softens your heart and opens your eyes to new perspectives.  You need to shake free from the mold you are in. There's a saying....you may be too smart for your own good.

                  1. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You respect other beliefs? For you, that is a bold faced lie and you know it. As far as cultures go, we never delved into that territory so I have no problem believing that is true.

                    I dont see how it is "obvious" that I am searching for god, especially considering how Sed asked me what my purpose was on these forums already and I answered her. I would say go look for my answer, but one I doubt you would and two I apparently repeat myself without realizing it half the time so lucky you. I told her that my purpose on here was to simply understand why people not only feel the need for religion to exist but why they feel the need to get other people to believe the same. I am pretty sure with our previous scenario with god showing up at my door step, that would be one of the only ways for me to completely believe that god exists, but that alone would not make me worship him, so why do you continue to say that I am searching for god? A forum would not be the first or even last place I would look if I was truly searching for god. On the other hand, a forum is a GREAT place to see everyone's different viewpoints and question them, which is where my thinning patience comes into play.

                    I have asked people questions. Not only have I continued to ask them questions but they deflect those questions and they say I am looking for a fight/blind to any viewpoints outside of my own. If that were true, I highly doubt half the damn comments in this forum would belong to me to begin with, but clearly it must be true right...

                    Do consider my response to you a luxury, since I was already half way through typing it when I saw that you are praying for me. Its not like I asked you to STOP telling me that you are praying for me, and its not like you agreed to that or anything right? Hell, you even said in your own comment that you knew I would not like it, but you went on and told me anyway. So as if breaking your word was not annoying enough, you then say that I might be too smart for my own good.

                    Not only your arrogance but your hypocrisy as well is stifling Lybrah. This is my last response to you. I would ask that you do not reply to any more of my comments, however pointless that request is since your word cannot be trusted.

              2. 0
                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Who do you guys think you are kidding? I get that you are incapable of putting anything above your own salvation, I get that you are incapable of making a sacrifice for another, but to attempt to honestly say you can't have a moment of doubt because it's the saddest thing you can imagine and think anyone with a right mind would believe you is funny and a little scary.

                Which is sadder, you having a moment of doubt or a child living in pain and anguish in hell for eternity? Your moment is fleeting and you get forgiveness, but the child stays there forever.

                1. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Rad Man, I made it very clear that I and many other believers would be willing to DIE if it meant you would gain eternal life / salvation. So how does this translate into we "are incapable of making a sacrifice for another"? Do you want more than our lives?

                  What we will not do is reject or deny our Lord, which intentional doubt really is doing. You or anyone else need our earthly lives or the sacrifice of anything we have here on earth, okay, this we will give if it means you will receive eternal life. But do you or others demand we deny or reject our Lord, even for a moment? No way!!

                  No child is going to live "in pain and anguish in hell for eternity". Maybe, just maybe, the children of those who reject God are blessed when they die as children because they are the ones going to the Father. Maybe, just maybe, the God who created and highly values every tribe and nation wants people from every tribe and nation in his eternal heaven / new earth, and the way for him to bring some from those who otherwise reject him is to take them to himself before they are corrupted by people. Sound "harsh" to you? Of course it does because you are thinking from a worldly view - as if life here on earth is all there is and is what has the greatest worth, as if we somehow all must live to an "old age" because this is all we get here, as if the Father isn't right there receiving his children, as if death here isn't a more wonderful birthday there, as if all that God has promised will not come to be. And no, I'm NOT saying WE should kill children, as you love to say of me; rather, I'm saying the author of life who determines the number of each one's days, no matter how long or short they may be, is the one who can bring his own to himself any time he determines.

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    No, you are willing to leave this veil of tears, for a much better place, if Rad would be saved.  There is a difference.  Now if you would give up your seat at God's feet, it might mean a little more.

                    As far as the children being saved; most will not follow the rules set forth by Jesus (John 3:15) and will not be saved.  Unless you believe in a purgatory, that means hell; you are not allowed to change Jesus's words to add that all children are welcomed into heaven whether believing or not.

                  2. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    So the saddest thing imaginable by you is a moment of doubt, not the millions or billions how have doubt or have faith in a version of God that will not bring them to where they need to be. Just can't get past yourself can you. Would it be more sad for you to have a moment of doubt or for you to find out that your children have doubt?

  9. AntjuanDavis profile image61
    AntjuanDavisposted 2 years ago

    It will be like asking why does your mother and father need to exist. I don't like religion but i do believe in Jesus Christ. Are you asking about religion or God? Many times people confuse the two. They are not interchangeable. Without God then nothing will exist period!  God needs to exist (mentally and spiritually) because we need to know our creator in order to know our self.

    1. peeples profile image90
      peeplesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I find this a sad thought. We need to spend more time knowing/believing in our self, then maybe we wouldn't have to worship something we hope is real.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        When someone does not care enough to believe in themselves, I guess that is the only option left to them it seems.

      2. Chris Neal profile image84
        Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        But the 'something' IS real, whether we hope He is or we wish He weren't. The thing is, we don't WISH He were real as a way of getting out of things. If anything, once you know God is real, your personal responsibility becomes much more profound than what is usually meant by people who say we need to stop turning to religion and 'take responsibility' for ourselves.

        1. Link10103 profile image80
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          And you still have yet to provide any type of evidence that points to god absolutely existing without a doubt. With that said, it seems exactly that people believe god exists simply to get out of things. Perfect example? Everlasting life in heaven after death. People are afraid of death, what better way to escape deaths reality than to say you will live happily ever after with all your friends and family once you die? If suicide wasn't said to pretty much be a one way ticket to hell, you would have people jumping off of roof tops and blindly walking into oncoming traffic left and right just so they can be happy quicker.

          Provide a solid case that might make me think different, otherwise that is exactly what it seems like. More than likely, you will not be able to for any rationally minded person.

          1. Chris Neal profile image84
            Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            More than likely, I will not for any person who doesn't want to believe and then wants to call that 'rational', you mean? Because that's pretty well been my experience. I've dealt with it before and I will repeat what I said. You're right that I can't give a 'laboratory experiment' piece of evidence. It doesn't work like that. Before I became a Christian, I was the same way. I thought since I couldn't touch it or see it, it therefor was not rational to think it existed. And if you're simply going to dismiss me (as many do) because of that, well, I can't do much about that but I can point out that it's not a good example of 'fair-minded' or 'thorough.' What I've asked all along has NEVER been for anyone to believe just because I say so. What I have asked has ALWAYS been to really examine not only the actions but what might have prompted someone who was so NOT Christian to become one. Some people have done that a bit, but most simply want me to adhere to their standards while decrying when a believer does the same.

            As for your assertion that if not for the Catholic church's insistence that suicide leads straight to hell, we'd see a slew of happy suicides, I'm going to assume (for all our sakes) that you really are smarter than that...

            1. Link10103 profile image80
              Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Here is where my patience starts to thin out a bit. I am ASKING YOU QUESTIONS to try and understand your beliefs, so how on earth am I dismissing you? If you cannot give anyone any type of evidence that your belief is true, then DO NOT assume your belief is true and attempt to spread it with that pretext.

              "I think what I believe is true but I cannot prove to you that it is". Bam, simple as that, lets move on. Of course simplicity has never been the strong suit of some of the christian believers I have interacted with.

              As far as suicides go, I would assume most people are happy enough with their lives to wait until they die naturally, but for all the religious fanatics that have been and continue to exist in the world today can you honestly say they would not gladly jump off a cliff into a pit of sharks if they were not told suicide is a hell bound ticket, especially if their own personal life really sucks? You would have to be ignorant to think its not a possibility at all.

              1. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                First of all, a person who uses their lack of patience as a weapon (especially when a little patience is exactly what's called for) does not impress me. Secondly, a person who can read what I wrote and then claim it's something else does not impress me. Thirdly, a person who claims to not be dismissing me while in the very act of dismissing me really, really does not impress me.

                If all you want to hear is, "I can't prove it," so you can say bam let's move on, then fine. Bam, let's move on. If you actually want to have a discussion, then great, there are only a few people here with the patience and honesty to do that.

                As for your suicide point, well, I'm sorry, what point? You mean to tell me that humans have no actual survival instinct and if they really thought suicide was the way, we'd see literally thousands of them? Seriously?

                1. 0
                  Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Notice how everyone else has pretty much abandoned this thread...

                  1. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Even if that were true, why would you come to comment on an abandoned thread? Says something about yourself doesn't it?

                    Besides, I hardly consider less than/a little over 12 hours of non activity to be abandoned.

                    So not only do you lack basic reading comprehension, you apparently have no concept of time either. Interesting.

                2. Link10103 profile image80
                  Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Im using my lack of patience as a weapon? Honestly, I do not know what you mean by that. Please explain if you can.

                  What did I read of yours and then claim as something else? And I also dont see how I dismissed you at any point when you are the one who came onto this forum and your first comment was "Because God exists". To which I asked you multiple questions, none of which you responded to at all. You say god exists. Okay, and I say to not only prove god exists but to prove your specific god exists over all the others. You neglect to answer that and still assert that god exists. If you cannot prove that, then you cannot say god exists as if it were a fact. What you should do is change your comment from "Because god exists" to "Because I think god exists". Then, you aren't stating a fact but an opinion. I have no reason to attempt to disprove an opinion since that is what you personally believe.

                  I asked a question, you neglected to answer, I ask more questions that you still neglect to answer. But I am the one who doesn't want a discussion. Makes sense I guess.

                  I am pretty sure I clarified that a specific group of people, religious fanatics, would more than likely have no qualms about slitting their own wrists if it meant being with the god that they are coo coo for cocoa puffs over if they were not told suicide was a ticket to hell. Labeling them as religious fanatics most likely means they are batshit crazy, so you really think a crazy person wouldn't be crazy enough to cut the rope short and be with god? I cannot imagine you are that ignorant, especially when people had and continue to have no problems killing people for their god.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image84
                    Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I have neglected to answer nothing. I was very clear about the answer I was giving.

                    I believe that God exists because He does. I think He exists because He does. If I wasn't sure, then I would say so. I know that it drives some people crazy that I persist in stating it so categorically when by my own admission I can't provide a 'lab-ready' proof. But it doesn't work that way. And it would be dishonest of me to act as if I were merely stating my opinion and that God might not exist.

        2. 0
          Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Well said!

      3. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
        LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Peeples and Link10103,
        What should we believe about ourselves? Whatever we believe about ourselves is what someone else has told us about ourselves... That can get really crazy from culture to culture... especially for women. Think about it!!!

        We come here knowing nothing.... we are taught everything, either by way of an educator, an experience or an emotion. What one teacher, experience or emotions tells us about ourselves is often contradicted by another contrary teacher, experience or emotion....

        So, with such limited resources, what should we believe about ourselves....

        Ego never wants to admit that we need anything, or anybody... Our fact of existence is that we NEED...

        1. Link10103 profile image80
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          You believe whatever you want to about yourself. Sometimes it is right, others it is wrong, so what?Plenty of women and men who are overweight are perfectly happy with their lives, regardless of what people tell them. I am sure more than enough overweight women and men are not religious either.

          I am open minded enough about myself to know what I should think of myself and what I can improve upon...so why aren't you/the people you describe?

        2. peeples profile image90
          peeplesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          No one told me what I think about me. Quite honestly society might tell me what I am suppose to be, but I don't think society or anyone other than maybe my husband have ever defined me. I believe in me. Where does that strength come from? Me! Where do the positives I think about myself come from? Me! Who tells me to hold strong when I feel like the world is falling apart? ME! Yes I came into this world knowing nothing. Yes I base my thoughts and opinions off of things I see happen in the world. Yes I need things, like food, air, love, and other natural needs. I don't need to believe in something that has in no way had any impact on my life. If others do it does not bother me. However I like to base my beliefs and opinions, and yes even the things I have faith in (like my husband) on actual events that I can know are true or have seen. I don't think anyone needs to know a super being to know themselves. Again to each their own.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Basing your thoughts, actions, and beliefs on actual events that happened to you and can be proven they happened to you?

            Who would have thought...well said.

    2. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Here is the thing...I can prove my mother and father exist by simply looking at them. In this day and age we have DNA testing that would also confirm that they exist, such testing would not be possible if they did not physically exist as well, therefore they exist/existed.

      I asked why does religion need to exist, and with the definition of religion being this: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods", then I guess by extension I am asking why does god need to exist as well. I dont see "god" absolutely having to relate to religion, but I do not see any way around "religion" not relating to "god" or some form of higher being.

      "Without God then nothing will exist period!  God needs to exist (mentally and spiritually) because we need to know our creator in order to know our self."

      Can you prove that? Can you show, with tangible (aka REAL) evidence that we would not exist if god himself did not exist? Because as far as I am concerned, scientists who have dedicated their whole lives to answering that question have yet to come up with an answer. Why do you feel the NEED to believe that god must exist in order to know yourself? I could care less if god exists, but I am pretty sure I know and accept myself perfectly fine.

  10. CPatrick2120 profile image60
    CPatrick2120posted 2 years ago

    I believe it's to help keep some sane, to give many something worth living for and something to look forward to. Religion gives others that extra push throughout the day. To be honest, I believe that without Religion, many people would probably go crazy or things will become way more worse than what the world is going through now. More crimes, more turmoil, more sadness.

    Why wouldn't you mind it being eradicated? Has religion done anything to you personally?

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I dont hold much faith in religion, yet I havent gone crazy or want to go out and cause mass chaos. I will never understand why people use that type of reasoning to justify religion as a whole.

      Why wouldn't I mind it being eradicated? I personally do not see the positives (like you said, keeping people sane, giving people purpose, and other reasons mentioned etc) to outweigh the near catastrophic harm it has caused not only in the past but in the present as well. I personally think alot of the evil/negatives in the world right now would vanish right along side religion. I don't know if it would be a better world, but I doubt it would be much worse.

  11. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Religion needs to exist so that people can devote themselves to the Great Spirit who loves us all and wants us to Come Home. 

    We need religion to help us IDENTIFY Good from Bad. Right from Wrong. Life from Death and to help bring about Peace and Joy... or don't you remember the original message of CHRISTMAS, celebrated so long ago?
    Light a Candle.

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I was not raised in a religious household in the slightest, yet I know perfectly well the difference between good and bad, and I know I am not the only person to have been raised as such so your point on that is void.

      I was also under the impression that "Christmas" was celebrated by pagans way before it became an adopted christian holiday. They celebrated the winter solstice by partying and having a jolly good time for the most part, according to a quick google search that is.

  12. bBerean profile image59
    bBereanposted 2 years ago

    A "what if" scenario pitting faith of a believer against some unthinkable evil or horror could only be posed by one with no concept of what that faith is.  Indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation, unbelief from that time forward is not possible.  Doubt in themselves, or their perceptions, sometimes confusion, yes, all possible.  Unbelief, no. 

    Even were that not the case the proposal is ludicrous and self defeating on it's face.  You are seeking to disprove the supernatural, but would need the supernatural to determine if they had truly abandoned faith, even for a minute, rather than it just being a ploy to satisfy the challenge, or one of the waverings mentioned above.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not seeking to hurt or alter anyones faith in this case. I'm simply questioning ones comment that they can't imagine anything worse than a doubt. If one is honest than one can imagine worse scenarios. I'm not trying to get someone to admit they could doubt and then jump on the and say "see", I'm trying to get an honest answer. Can you imagine something worse than one moment of doubt?

      1. bBerean profile image59
        bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I suppose if we juggle semantics we could exploit human emotions and call something doubt, but if you literally mean to question God's existence or my security in the salvation He has given, it is quite literally not possible for me to doubt it.  Can I wallow in my unworthiness and wonder how it is that He has bothered to do such a thing for the likes of me?  All the time.  That is doubting me, however, not Him, His gift, or the finished work of Jesus, Who made it all possible.

        1. 0
          Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Good point.  I don't know that I could doubt God even if I wanted to.  I could say I doubt it, but would my heart agree?

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            But you just said everyone doubts? What happened?

            "Everyone has a little bit of doubt no matter what."

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So you'd rather watch 9/11's everyday for the rest of your life than simply wondering if it's possible that God exists even if it's just for a moment? Much like wondering if we are asleep and this is just a dream?

          1. bBerean profile image59
            bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I am not sure how to make this more clear....it is not a matter of choosing to entertain a thought.  It is no longer possible for me to doubt.  It matters not what prize you offer, if the price is doubt, I am without the ability to pay.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Can't even ask, what if? Can't even ask what if it's all in my mind? What if the Muslims are right? You'd rather watch 9/11 everyday for the rest of your life than check yourself. What does that tell you about yourself? At the very least one could say that they could try to question their faith. That would be the honest thing to do.

              1. bBerean profile image59
                bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                roll  You know what's hard to imagine?  That you don't get this as opposed to purposefully acting as though you don't, but if you say so.  Can you doubt you have kids?  Just for a moment, to not watch 9/11 over and over and all?  You can pretend, but you can't honestly doubt, can you?  Are you really able to fool yourself?  Now who is not being honest?  What does that tell you about yourself?  See how much nonsense all that is?

                1. Link10103 profile image80
                  Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Can you doubt you have kids? Um, not if you can visually see them and physically interact with them on a daily basis. You can doubt that they are kids from your own sperm/eggs, at least until you take the test to see if their DNA matches your's or not.

                  I dont see how your logic allowed you to think that was a good example to use. As for the rest, dunno if I read it wrong but I can't really understand what you are trying to say.

                  1. bBerean profile image59
                    bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Rad is requesting someone pretend not to know something they do know, for a moment.  I've given a comparative example utilizing a materialistic perspective, so those  who are not aware or not acknowledging spirituality can relate.  It is nonsense to say you can legitimately trick yourself for a moment into doubting you have kids, if you do.  You can ignore it and pretend, but you can't not know.  Just as that proposal is not viable, so from a spiritual perspective, neither is Rad's request. 

                    Confounding, I'm sure, through a materialistic bias which says the examples are not relevant because only one is real.  If you could step away from that prejudice for a moment, perhaps you would understand the illustration, (you needn't agree about spirituality to be able to comprehend through this example why the request is unreasonable, and impossible).

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Sure I can imagine for a moment that I don't have children and I've dreamt the entire thing. I can do that when my children are real people I have conversations with while you are talking about not questioning a figment of your imagination that you can't even prove exists.

                  Let's be honest please?

                  1. bBerean profile image59
                    bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, let's be honest.  Imagining is not doubting,  it's pretending.  Yes, I can pretend.  Do you pretend so convincingly that you could genuinely say you believed what you were pretending?

            2. Cat333 profile image82
              Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              How beautifully said, bBerean!!

  13. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    I had to stop reading around pg 11 b/c the sheer insanity of this thread was going to cause my brain to explode.

    Emile and Berean, thank you so much for your attempts to bring some kind of clarity.

    I will repeat again. The two have NOTHING to do with one another. Me losing faith for ONE SECOND (the time frame you keep using) and an imaginary baby dying... these make believe scenarios have NOTHING to do with each other... or even with reality. Babies die every day. It's a part of our natural world. Not that that has anything to do with my faith. I adore babies... like no one you've ever met. I would adopt every baby who needed a mommy if I could.

    Let me try a different tack, ok? Let's take Job. The man lost his children, his animals, his house, his friends... His wife told him, "Curse God and die!" But he didn't. He knew all of life is fleeting and that God is eternal. He did not curse God. He was faithful. I have been unfaithful to my God. I have sinned against Him, but I have never lost faith IN HIM. He has always been faithful and true. I don't ever, ever, ever want to lose faith in Him. I can imagine no greater failure on my part. Can you just try to understand what I'm saying instead of creating ridiculous, unrelated scenarios?

    1. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You were asked if losing your faith in your god was worse than watching a baby die since you said that you cannot imagine anything worse than losing your faith. Nothing more, nothing less. You neglected to answer.

      Its really been as simple as that, you just made it alot more complicated than it needed to be. You made a statement, you were questioned about that statement with a scenario, but you claim the scenario is unrelated and because of that feel you do not need to provide an answer. A lot less "insanity" would exist had you done so. I believe 2 other people managed to answer the question while you did not.

      1. Sed-me profile image82
        Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        If you cannot find my answer in my last post you simply don't like my answer. My mom always said "I don't play "what-if" games." I feel the same, and I wont.

        1. Link10103 profile image80
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I shouldnt have to find your answer. I have been assuming what your answer was all of this time, yet never saw a direct answer from you. I do not like assuming things without attempting to get people to prove that my assumptions are wrong.

          You do in fact find losing your faith in god, even for a moment, to be worse than watching a baby die in front of you.

          1. Sed-me profile image82
            Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Is that an option?
            What about losing one of my arms, or both?
            What about being witness to the atrocities in a concentration camp?
            How about watching an old person drown?
            Seeing a cow get hit by a car and the ppl inside the car go sliding off a cliff and burst into flames on their way down?
            Did you ever see Time Bandits? I would hate to sit thru that movie again.
            Are you not getting my point?

            1. Link10103 profile image80
              Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              As far as this particular comment goes? I cannot say that I do see your point. I feel like the comment itself is not complete for some reason but that is probably just me.

              1. Sed-me profile image82
                Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I understand that... you do not understand my meaning. That makes sense to me. I wish I could help you understand, but the hypothetical situations you are creating have nothing to do with my meaning.

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Then you shouldn't make claims that you can't imagine anything sadder than doubting God for moment. It shows you either have no imagination or you are dishonest.

          Which would be sadder, imagining a child in pain in hell for eternity or you having a moment of doubt?

          Please show some honesty.

          1. Sed-me profile image82
            Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Ah, so this is a fictional situation you have created out of your imagination? Do you see how pointless?

            1. Link10103 profile image80
              Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              This entire time it has been hypothetical, I dont think either me or Rad Man pretended it was anything more but a simple question. Dying babies are very real, so I would not call the situation fictional rather than just unlikely.

              1. Sed-me profile image82
                Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Let me reiterate. I don't have any need to enter in to your hypothetical situation b/c it had nothing to do with the intent or meaning of my statement.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Ahhhhhhhh, you said imagine. You said you can't imagine. Well let's imagine.

                  1. Sed-me profile image82
                    Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    No need. The two have nothing to do with one another.
                    I will leave you to your imagination. It doesn't sound like a pleasant place to be though.

                2. Link10103 profile image80
                  Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  And your lack of any direct yes or no answer to the question does nothing to prove my initial assumption of what your answer is to be wrong.

                  In short I have an answer. Now you only have to fend off Rad Man with your superb evasiveness.

                  1. Sed-me profile image82
                    Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Good night, gentlemen.

            2. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You did say you can't imagine…?

  14. bBerean profile image59
    bBereanposted 2 years ago

    I once saw someone imagine a unicorn, only to steal away it's horn to use in beating it repeatedly, page after page, even long after it's demise.  Indeed, that was a sad thing to behold.

  15. 0
    Rad Manposted 2 years ago

    To think and to have been told that the saddest thing possibly imaginable is to use your brain to think and question is evidence of horror of indoctrination. It makes some completely unable to be honest with themselves.

    1. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Yet people think and question BEFORE being sealed by the Holy Spirit. And some of those who are sealed will nonetheless have moments of doubt. So your remarks don't really hold up.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Well, that was a change of tune. A while back you said a moment of doubt was impossible and now you say everyone has moments?

        1. Cat333 profile image82
          Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I said SOME sealed by the Spirit have moments of doubt, not everyone does. AND because the Spirit is within them, even if they doubt for a moment, He will be with them and they will not be able to continue in doubt. But a believer can't just make a choice to doubt at any time because the Lord is with you / within you and you already know truth. Any moments of spontaneous doubt in the lives of some may relate to a distancing from the Spirit (for example, when a believer is sinning and grieving the Spirit, or when God is testing a believer and makes himself unheard for a specific time). An intentional act of doubting / questioning represents a denial and rejection of the Lord.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Then what are you so afraid of? Why is it such a sad thing to question if it's impossible to doubt anyway? It's rather funny that the Muslims feel a similar way. Ready to die for their faith and think they will be rewarded for doing so. Do you think they should doubt? If they can be as positive as you then you could be just as wrong.

            1. Cat333 profile image82
              Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I've lived apart from God and I know what that's like; Separation from God is the greatest tragedy in any life, whether realized or not.

              For me at this point to try and force a question of whether God exists is simply humorous because HERE HE IS. It's not really an idea I can authentically entertain. My spirit knows him as surely as your natural being knows people in the natural. Any time in the past when I tried to say "What if...", he was right there with me, confirming my faith all the more. I couldn't truly doubt.

              Those who attempt to push me away from God somehow push me closer to him.

              Please let those with differing religious beliefs speak for themselves. Let them say exactly what it is they've experienced - exactly what and why they believe what they do.

              Unless it is through the Spirit within us that we test the spirits, we are vulnerable to belief in anything.

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Unless we are able to think critically about everything without fear and indoctrination, we are vulnerable to belief in anything.

                Sorry my life is not a tragedy. See Beth?

                1. Sed-me profile image82
                  Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I have no idea what you're talking about.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You asked me what believers have said about me, I'm showing you in just the last few posts.

                2. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  "Fear and indoctrination" and this don't quite line up: Let's say I hear the song "Imagine there's no heaven..." My response is to look to God and smile and be so thankful that it's impossible for me, and to jump up and down in spirit, so filled with joy and so overflowing with praise and excited anticipation of what is coming. The suggestion doesn't illicit any fear, but praise and joy as I glory in the Lord.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, when you say the saddest thing imaginable is a doubt that you admit does no good anyway one has to wonder...

  16. Austinstar profile image76
    Austinstarposted 2 years ago

    If one goes back to the very beginning of religion (any religion), it becomes quite obvious why we have religion. It does not explain why we 'need' religion, because we do not.

    The first 'religion' started with a burning bush or perhaps some other unexplained event like a lightning strike. Since early man did not have knowledge of why certain things exist and happen, mankind invented gods - of the fire, wind, rain, earth, etcetera. That is why there are so many gods to this day. People just kept believing in these 'gods' and passed that "knowledge" down through the ages.

    People are still doing this in today's time since the 'belief' and 'faith' are so ingrained from birth.

    Atheism is making strides today because mankind has advanced to a level where we no longer need to believe in superstitious, mythological "god did it' scenarios. We have tried and true logical, investigative and scientific methods to discover what is happening in the universe.

    Suprise! no on has ever been able to find proof of this "God concept".

    Gods were invented by man to explain our world. That is the long and short of it.

    Until the gods show themselves, man will continue to search for them because most people cannot accept the fact that WE ARE THE UNIVERSE! We belong to the universe and when we die we go back to our elemental forms. Perhaps someday we will become part of a star or just part of the never ending matter of the cosmos. WE ARE ETERNAL! and we don't need religion, because these are the facts.

  17. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    Radman, there are followers of Christ all over the world who's faith is threatened everyday. They suffer unbelievable wrongs b/c of this faith. This is one post (today) from "Voice of the Martyrs."

    ""Eduardo," a pastor in Colombia, just told our VOM worker that an armed group has kidnapped two of his children. His oldest son was killed by FARC in 2012. Pray for safety, and for whole family."

    This father has already lost a son. Two more of his children have now been kidnapped. Can you imagine if they had suffered all of this... and he lost faith? Would it all be for nothing? Our faith is everything to us. We in North America can't imagine what our brothers and sisters around the world are withstanding, but we have a deep desire to live our lives without losing faith... without ever doubting our Father. I hope you can have a sense of understanding and respect for that.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I do understand and respect that, however you comment that you can't imagine anything sadder was just sad indeed. I guess I had to eventually imagine something for you that was worse that a moment of doubt. Keep in mind however a moment of doubt is not a faith lost, it's simple a question and a healthy honest one at that. Do you think for example that Muslims should question their faith?

      Not being allowed to question is indoctrination at it's finest. We should never be afraid to think for ourselves. Do you think the Islamic suicide bombers should question their faith?

      1. Sed-me profile image82
        Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I had forgotten how insulting participating on these threads are.
        So far we have been called dishonest, ppl who have stopped "using our brains", ppl who don't care about others, indoctrinated... the list will not end as long as we profess to love a God you do not believe in.

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          LOL, and what's been said about me? BTW, disagreeing with you shouldn't be insulting to you, It's nothing personal. Did you really think I'd just except that you can't imagine anything worse than one moment of doubt? Come one now, we are well aware of how strong imagination can be.

          1. Sed-me profile image82
            Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this
            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              So you've never tried yourself to imagine anything worse than one moment of doubt that as Cat says would go nowhere anyway? You just assumed it was impossible? Don't you guys see what indoctrination does?

              BTW, how many times has someone told me it's impossible to be good/ethical without God? Do you think that true? Do you think Satan is busy inside me that's why I don't or can't see God?

              1. Sed-me profile image82
                Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Are you referring to this verse?

                But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.
                2 Corinthians 4:3-4

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  See Beth?

                  1. Sed-me profile image82
                    Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Do I see the verse I just posted asking you if that's what you were referring to when you made your post? Yes, I see that.

              2. Cat333 profile image82
                Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                "Jesus answered. 'No one is good--except God alone'." Mark 10:18

                Through the Lord we are DECLARED good and righteous, but have no righteousness of our own. Through the Lord we are given power to overcome our sinful natures, but have no ability on our own.

  18. Marie Gail profile image88
    Marie Gailposted 2 years ago

    Interesting question, and clearly it has struck a deep emotional chord with several hubbers. What I wonder is why we can't discuss religion without getting so emotional. Yes, we each have deeply held beliefs. Yes, we all have some notion of whether or not a deity exists. What I don't understand is why, when a question is put as factually as this, people begin attacking and defending immediately. It's almost as if no one really read the question to begin with.

    As to the question, a good friend of mine once mentioned a book titled "Wired for God," which gives some physiological reasoning behind the search for a divine being. I haven't read it so cannot speak to the quality of the research or the conclusions made in the book.

    1. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You are correct. I have not read the original question. At some point I popped on the "last comment" and probably responded to that or maybe to a line of discussion that was taking place on that page at the time. These threads tend to morph a lot.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I do not see how you did not read the original question when it is the very title of this forum post. To have gotten here you would have had to click on it.

        You are either admitting you are not being honest or are just oblivious to what you are clicking on. I do hope its the latter.

        1. Sed-me profile image82
          Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          lol. Im sorry, but just to let you know, it is fairly common not to come in on page one. There are how many threads, on how many pages, in how many forums? If you were to read from page one of each thread, you would never make it to the end of some threads let alone comment on two. If you click on the left column, you will come in at the beginning of a thread. If you want to read the current conversation, you simply click on the right column on the last posters name and it takes you to the most current post.

          Are you on threaded or chronological? Click on the latter if you are on threaded... its on the top of your page on the right. It makes following current posts much easier.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I find threaded to be abysmal. But since you told me to look at the top of the page...the question is staring me right in the face on the top left side. Not only that, but the question is also clearly stated in the tab of my internet browser as well.

            So again, I do not see how you got here without reading the original question when it is the very title of this thread, coming in on page 1 or 100 has nothing to do with anything if the question is in the title.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              As I said before, I guess the 10 commandments contains nothing about telling the truth.

              1. Cat333 profile image82
                Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Again assuming the worst of people (believers, that is)? Look into the psychology of it. Rad Man and Link, you seem to be "Sensing" personality types, so you would naturally tend to notice all that is in your physical surroundings. An "Intuiting" personality type often will not, for they're "lost" in the world of meanings and possibilities and ideas and such. One way is not superior to another way; they are simply different and we should strive to value and embrace these differences God has designed in us, for each one has a purpose. Let's not accuse others based only on our own ways and projections. It is not "You're a liar if you didn't notice something so noticeable to me"; it is a matter of each being who they were designed to be.

                1. Link10103 profile image80
                  Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  "One way is not superior to another way"

                  Are you speaking about the way of people, or ways/paths/choices in general?

                  1. Cat333 profile image82
                    Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    The way of people specifically. God has designed us all uniquely and for a unique purpose.

                    The ultimate Way does not fit here. This is God's Way, not ours. We have no say in it.

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Hmmm, just in the last few hours I've been told I'm lost, contain Satan and I live the greatest tragedy in any life. Is that just your way? Are some just not meant to be honest?

                  1. Cat333 profile image82
                    Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't say anything about Satan. And since all are "lost" until "saved" and all who are "saved" were once "lost", we are ALL THE SAME APART FROM GOD. No offense is intended in anything I've said. It is a tragedy for any of us at any time to be separated from God.

              2. Link10103 profile image80
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Apparently.

                1. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Please see my post directly before yours.

              3. Say Yes To Life profile image86
                Say Yes To Lifeposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                RadMan - Commandment #9 says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor".

    2. Link10103 profile image80
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Marie, are you a saint by any chance?

      1. Marie Gail profile image88
        Marie Gailposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Ha! No, I haven't died yet--one of several features that precludes me from that particular designation, although I am Catholic. I'm pretty sure the powers that be will find plenty of other reasons not to canonize me when I pass on.

        Cheers!

        MG

  19. Marie Gail profile image88
    Marie Gailposted 2 years ago

    I'd also like to point out that those quoting the Bible as fact are subscribing to the assumption that all readers believe it to be fact. In order to reach a broader audience, you might consider arguing with texts, facts or proof that are accepted as authoritative by all parties involved in the conversation.

    1. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Those of us who post scripture, do not do so with the assumption that we are proving our points to those who are unbelievers. We do it simply to show where we are coming from (I.E. what we believe and why we believe it). They know we believe what we believe to be factual and we know they believe it to be false.

  20. 0
    Rad Manposted 2 years ago

    LOL, I guess the 10 commandments don't mention anything about telling the truth.

    1. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Are you calling me a liar again?
      This seems to be pointless.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I have no idea what you are talking about.

  21. Link10103 profile image80
    Link10103posted 2 years ago

    Quick sidenote: I was under the impression that we can delete our own comments up until a certain point. I know I can, but then again I created this forum so I do not know if that is my exclusive right.

    I do know however that we can all edit our own comments until a certain amount of time has passed. So to say you replied to the wrong comment is absolutely retarded.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You can edit your own comment for a certain amount of time. I feel it's dishonest to go back and edit a comment to mean something else however. I've seen it done to make people look bad, sad really. I frequently edit my grammar however.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        And I agree that it is dishonest, but take a look at this (http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2610431) and then her comment below it. You might see what I mean

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          She probably doesn't know she can delete or edit it.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I would be willing to believe that, if I didn't already know that she has been a member of Hub Pages for almost 2 years and that she participates in the forums quite frequently. My first few minutes in the hub pages forums and I realized I could edit comments because of those things called my eyeballs. If it takes almost 2 years to realize that...well then.

            And knowing what I know about her and her behavior when she gets annoyed (which is displayed earlier in this very thread actually), that comment of hers fits perfectly.

    2. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Very unkind, again Link! I hope no one has been so unkind to you here, but please try to be kinder to her in the future.

      1. Link10103 profile image80
        Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I have been nothing but kind to her, regardless of how many times she has insulted me in the past. Sorry for finally being fed up with her.

        Did you see the comment where she said I lacked empathy, grace, class, and called me an immature child? I would assume that is a much more personal attack than what I said, but that is just me.

        1. Cat333 profile image82
          Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          No, I didn't see the post, so I won't speak on it. I saw you saying what she did was "retarded". Btw, some take offense at the derogatory use of the word "retarded" and find it insensitive to those who are mentally challenged. Please take care to avoid needless offense; it would certainly be appreciated.

          1. Link10103 profile image80
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            If a mentally challenged person came up to me and said that they find it offensive when people use the world "retarded", then I would have no problems stopping the use of the word.

            This doesn't mean I will go out of my way to continue using it, but I will certainly not care to stop using ANY word if people who are offended by it cant even relate to it.

            You also seemed to have missed the part where I mentioned that she gloated about her masters degree to me. I cannot imagine any situation between strangers where gloating is considered acceptable, can you?

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I have a mentally challenged aunt who is offended by that word. I'm not much of a fan if it ether.

              1. Link10103 profile image80
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Like I said, if a mentally challenged person came up to me personally and said they were offended by my use of the word, I would stop, provided I was constantly using it for whatever reason.

                As far as I know, no one here is mentally challenged in the context we are speaking about. I am not going to go out of my way to continue using the word, but I will not go out of my way to not use it either.

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay, you of course can do as you please however the report monkeys are watching.

                  I myself and very very dyslexic, Dyslexia is a learning disability. Do you call all those with learning disabilities "retarded"? If so then I fall into that category and would count as someone coming forward to ask you to stop.

                  1. Link10103 profile image80
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    For someone with Dyslexia, you certainly dont come off as having it. Your grammar is not the best most of the time, but I wouldnt have imagined Dyslexia rather than possibly not having English as your first language.

                    Anyway, there really is no way for me to explain my use of the word without having to explain my explanation to only have to explain my explanation of an explanation, and so on and so on. No I do not consider people with learning disabilities to be "retarded" in the context of which I used it in.

                    I believe this is at least the third time I have said this, I have no intentions of continuing to use the word, the word of which I have only used once...so why is this continually being beaten with a stick?

                2. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  A couple of people who participate in the forums have children who are mentally challenged and/or disordered. It's your choice, I just think it's a word better avoided.

              2. Chris Neal profile image84
                Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I don't like it either. I guess because of the way a lot of people still use it, calling someone a 'retard' when they're looking for a put-down. I think I've told you about the psychiatrist who told us (with my daughter sitting right in the room) that autism equals mental retardation.

                1. Sed-me profile image82
                  Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  +1

  22. JMcFarland profile image91
    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago

    Lybrah,  who said anything about tangible?   Do you always make up things that no one but you has said and then argue against those inventions because you can't say anything about what's actually said?   That seems dishonest.

    If he then chooses not to reveal himself to us for his own reasons and then burns us forever anyway due to his own decision,  that's an action of an immoral agent,  not a moral one,  sorry.

    1. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      God reveals himself in countless ways. You yourself, JMcFarland, are a beautiful revelation of God.

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        But saying that doesn't make it true,  Cat.   You know that.   My existence is a product of my parents having sex.   So what?

    2. 0
      Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I am not making things up, I am just interpreting that you want God to show up at your doorstep and physically prove to you He exists.  I'm trying to say that God does not work like that. 

      Also, God does not send people to hell.  They send themselves.  God wants and invites us to Heaven with Him, but we have to have a relationship with Him.  Those who reject Him are saying they don't want anything to do with Him and so they are separated from Him when they die.  If you choose to have nothing to do with God in this life, you will have NOTHING to do with Him in the next.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I choose to not be deluded. What kind of God would punish me for that again?

        1. 0
          Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          God does not punish.  God withdraws His presence, and since He is all good, all things good depart from you.  You're left with nothing but hell.  It's like I told Link--if you're in love with someone and they don't love you back, you have to move on and get over it, and I guess that is what God does.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry, I can't love a fictitious character. An all knowing God would know that. That's the real problem with your logic. An all knowing God would know everything and therefore know what's involved for all of us. He certainly wouldn't need to hide. Reminds me of the absent father who has never so much as sent a letter, you sends messages to those around you that he demands your love. What a joke.

            1. 0
              Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              That is an incorrect perspective on God.  True, God is all knowing.  He knows why you won't believe, and that is why He has sent people like me and Cat to tell you--that He is a living God.  He would be must more present in your life if you let Him in.

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                If god sent messengers that were incapable of doing anything other than just repeating empty assertions,  then they are impotent messengers of an impotent good.   If you're good is not powerful or smart enough to recognize that,  then it's not a god worthy of worship.   I told you that I've looked for god, and you told me that God chose to not reveal himself to me (because,  magic,  that you somehow know that - soba like you just pulled it out of your ass) but I'm still going to be held accountable for his failure and choice.   That's absurd.

                1. 0
                  Lybrahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  As for being impotent, God, the true judge, sees things differently than you do.  I'm sure He does not think I am impotent.  Satan wants you to believe that garbage.  God is who He is.   He doesn't have to change Himself for you.  He is NOT a failure.  With all due respect, the failure is yours.  You were barking up the wrong tree when you went looking for Him.  Try a different way to search.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You know nothing about me or my past,  nor have you asked - so how do you justify telling a former missionary and theology student in Bible college that they did it wrong?   How can you possibly make that determination about a complete stranger.   If god wants to show himself,  a) he is powerful enough to not need a mere human Messenger b) he would know that if he made my brain and designed me to be skeptical,  that I couldn't "just believe"

                    Maybe he's not impotent.   Maybe he just doesn't care.

            2. Chris Neal profile image84
              Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The problem with your hypothesis is that for it to work, the all-knowing God would have to FORCE us to know Him and FORCE us to love Him. Kind of like when people on the forums used to tell me that if God really wanted us humans to love Him, He would have created us as mindless robots with no free will. They truly didn't see the problem with that.

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Not true.   Free will just requires the ability to choose.   You can KNOW with undeniable evidence that God exists and still chose not to follow or worship him.   For example: Satan.

                1. Chris Neal profile image84
                  Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  a) Rad's assertion is that if God were all-knowing and all-loving, then He would have revealed Himself to everybody and since (in Rad's estimation) that has not happened He must therefor not exist. I was just pointing out the flaw in the logic, which is that for his assertion to work unequivocally, then the God who desires us to have some faith would have to remove any basis for actual faith.

                  b) You baseline assumption is good as far as it goes, but of course there are significant and really, really big differences between God and satan.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    And why again, does he require faith? It sure seems to me to be something someone would tell you when then were making up a lie. Just trust me, you've won a car, you just need to pay the tax on it.

                  2. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I didn't say Satan and God were similar.   I said that in the argument for free will,  you seem to think that being given undeniable proof turns you into a robot who has no choice except to love and worship God.   It's simply not true.   Satan knew that God existed and choose not to worship or follow him.   You still have free will as long as you have a choice.   I forgot the term, but some people believe that God exists,  yet hate him.   As long as a choice is still available,  free will stands.