What does your belief depend upon?

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jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years ago
Is it possible for you to "believe in" god, even though you know that god does not actually exist, except in your mind?
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  Emile Rposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That would be odd, unless you believed belief was somehow so beneficial that its absence would create a negative impact. But, wouldn't you simply be lying to yourself?
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  youcanwinposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it is possible for me to "believe in" god, even though I know that god does actually exist, except in your mind.
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  bBereanposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well played.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I agree!
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  Venkatachari Mposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Very excellent !!!!!
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  Venkatachari Mposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that there is God whatever name you may give it to Him. So, there is no question of His existing only in my mind. He is everywhere for believers and nowhere for non-believers. But nobody can prove that there is no such thing as a controlling power which causes all this universe as it is.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "What does your belief depend upon"
  
  And your answer is you believe because you believe, and that because of that unfounded belief there is no question that there is a god. It is everywhere but nowhere. And finally, apparently because you choose to believe, the old saw that a god cannot be disproven means it is there.
  
  Do you not see the errors in such reasoning? Should you depend on such thinking when you drive a car (no, that car headed for me and in my lane will not hit me because I don't believe it will) you would surely perish. Declaring an unfounded belief to be truth works ONLY when the consequences of such a belief are non-existent, and even then it is questionable - I see Christians are being killed for their belief.
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  aka-djposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Perish?
  
  Jesus had a great quote worth repeating;
  "Except you repent, you will all perish".
  
  You see, we are all about to be hit by your proverbial car. Except we get taken out of the way, the end is inevitable.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My original topic for discussion was intended to point to the inner person. What does your belief depend upon. I was hoping not to drive one more extended discussion that leads into attempts to convert others to any belief. Look inside of the self, decide one's own beliefs and where they have come from; where they are directed.
  
  If any "god" is, as so many here and in other hubs have stated, a spiritual entity, not of the earthly body, then any beliefs in that "god" are of necessity not approached by any actual existence of that "god." Any experience of that "god" must be from a mental point of view, not a physical one, thus not in any way provable.
  
  Again, since a mental appreciation must be individual, because no two persons can be absolutely certain what each other is thinking (without the application of a metaphor, for example), then there can be no absolute agreement of what constitutes those beliefs and what the characteristics of that "god" might be. A mental understanding cannot be conveyed without metaphor, or art, or analogy. Any metaphor, or art, or analogy. is open to interpretation. Never can it be conclusive or universal.
  
  Thus, finally, your own beliefs are yours, and yours alone. I am putting myself out there, as one of a-theistic understandings, to accept you and your belief(s) without having to take on your beliefs for myself. State them clearly for us all to hear. Seek respect for your beliefs, you are entitled to it and them. I seek your respect for my atheism, and hope to get it if your beliefs are personal and genuine.
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  AshtonFireflyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Very interesting; I like this approach you have taken.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The error in this inquiry lies within the fact that the question asks to compact a 3 dimensional God into a two dimensional mind. It just cannot be done.
  Yes, God is spiritual. But Christian sects cling to Christ; the physical aspect of him.
  Jesus was a man. How do I know? Because I believe the bible (the telling of Christ's ministry). How can one with such personal knowledge be forced to see things as one without, and fully explain two dimensionally?
  God is real. I cannot explain asking myself a question that is answered by a total stranger, moments later. I cannot explain personal predictions seemingly impossible unfolding before my eyes. I cannot explain the comfort I feel when I sense his presence. Not to anyone who has decided that he is most likely is not real. He doesn't have an autographed photo circulating.
  He is untouchable to the man that says in his heart that there is no God...
  That is firm rule. No getting around it.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Am I right in thinking you are trying to convert me?
  
  If I am wrong, then apologies, and I respect your interpretation.
  
  If I am right in my assumption, then you are out of order and I would ask you to concentrate on your own life, your own motives, your own presumptions. They might need a spring clean before you venture out upon the lives of others.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You have gotten me twisted...again jonny... don't nobody wanna convert you. Just tellin' my story...
  You keep on asking questions about my "unicorn"...seems you may be trying to convert thyself...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Cgenaea, "belief" does not equal "knowledge." No amount of argument, no amount of talking down to anyone who does not "believe," no twisted logic can change this.
  
  You have NO authority to take ANY message from that book out to others, except your self-appointed authority.
  
  Now, do you think you can look into yourself and find some background reasons for your beliefs? It is within that you are likely to find fruitful answers. Such a journey of discovery is yours and yours alone. No one can interfere, no one can judge you on the basis of what you find there. However, if you bring anything out into the public eye, then the public is entitled to judge.
  
  If Jesus is your focus, that also is your right but your obsession with passing on that focus to others sounds very questionable about your psychological needs.
  
  Any obsession of that which is Without can be a rejection of that which is Within.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You never question the sanity of one who keeps on with, "Lemme see your unicorn genaea! lemme see lemme see!!!" ???
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  Venkatachari Mposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Your comparison of belief in God with a belief of a physically running car is not sound argument. Here you are seeing the car physically running over to hit you and if you believe it will not hit you, it will be only foolishness.
  But believing in God even though not seeing is something different. For example, you do not see air. But you believe its existence because you are experiencing it in different ways. But air as it is is not visible to you. Similarly, those who believe in God, experience his existence some way or other. They get a kind of satisfaction and security. But they can not prove their belief. Simply because he is unable to prove does not nullify the existence of God or supreme power behind all things.
  But, it is an internal belief and he could not feel secured and happy without it.
  By arguing like this, I am not forcing my thinking over others. Everybody is free to think in his own way, and have beliefs whatever he thinks correct. This should not mean that he is insane or foolish. If you do not believe, it is okay. But do not ridicule other believers.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "But they can not prove their belief. Simply because he is unable to prove does not nullify the existence of God or supreme power behind all things."
  
  Absolutely correct. There is no proof in the absence of a god, just as there is no proof that the belief in a god's existence represents fact. From your earlier post:
  
  "So, there is no question of His existing only in my mind. He is everywhere for believers and nowhere for non-believers."
  
  Without proof either way, how can you legitimately make the claim that there is no question of your gods existence? How can you support the claim that he is everywhere? You yourself have stated there is no proof but expect others to accept your statements as true - how can you possibly support that expectation?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  See? You cannot hear one say, "I have had experience with him personally." Because the mind (I mean brain) has decided already that, "Hogwash!!!" Is the answer to that.
  The bible says that one must first believe that he is, in order to receive of him. This knocks some out of the box quickly. He chooses who chooses him. One must call upon the name of the Lord from a sincere heart. He will hear their cries and heal their land. Now I know that to be true.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Cannot hear it? I hear it every day of my life. On these forums if not on the street or knocking at my door. But hearing someone tell me what is very unlikely to be true does not mean I believe the tales, and that is the difference between us. You wish it to be true with all your heart, and so believe without evidence comes easily and naturally.
  
  If a god wishes me to believe in the unbelievable then it should not have made me with a logical, reasoning mind. Just give me an imagination and a great fear of death and let it go at that - it would then be inevitable that I would believe. Instead you're telling me that this same god condemned me to eternal torture from the moment it created the DNA in the gametes that became "wilderness".
  
  That's OK, though - I neither need nor want the services of such a vile monster as that.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. No prob. He has lots of followers. And he knows them by name. You can change your mind if you want. But he will not change his.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  With so many contradictions, you really think that god of yours is of sound mind?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No you have a sound mind. Mine's a little iffy. But God is mind. He wants to get all in there. Unless you say no.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And you know this how? Because the "spirit" told you so?
  
  As far as changing my mind, no I can't. I cannot simply believe anything at all, just because I want to. My mind does not work that way, no matter how much you claim it does.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I have claimed no such thing about your mind. I have no doubt that your mind CANNOT work that way. Bible calls it, wise in your own eyes" or "thinking more highly of self than you ought." Not everyone has the special sauce.
  Edit* and YES, the spirit told me.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "You can change your mind if you want."
  
  I would have to take that as a claim you cannot support and cannot know. You may doubt my statement, but that does not make it false; it simply means you are so wrapped up in your spiritual beliefs that reality may not intrude.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Supported.
  Knows without one doubt.
  You can't see it.
  Don't make it not true...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, Cgenaea, your mind is made up. Your beliefs are set and confirmed in your mind, and you feel there is no need for you to do any further, inner searching....right?
  
  I wonder if there are any others reading this discussion topic who have found benefit from searching his or her mind for the whys and wherefores of belief?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You must search the scriptures to live this life like Jesus did. The heart is full of self deception. The mind is powerful.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't make it not true, no. But also does not make it true, because it is NOT supported by anything but your own imagination and opinions.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And I did not compare a belief in a god with a belief in a running car. I compared the reasoning process resulting in that belief in both cases, and that is quite valid. There is no reason to suddenly decide that imagination and desire is an adequate substitute to evidence whatever the topic is.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A personally held belief, a way of perceiving things, is valid every time for the individual.
  When any individual tries to push his/her belief(s) onto others and concocts spurious arguments in support, that can be seen as bullying, in my opinion. But more than that:
  Behind the facade of every bully there is a person who feels in some way inferior, inadequate or insignificant. Trying to justify those beliefs to others and make them believe is a manifestation of ego.
  However, if the individual in strong and genuine with the belief he or she will have no problem allowing others to have there own beliefs.
  Others' beliefs do not have the power to negate your beliefs. They are only a "problem" if you try to impose yours.
  (In saying "you," I am not directing this comment to anyone in particular. Each for their own perception.)
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  Jay C OBrienposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "What does your belief depend upon"
  My belief depends upon my several verified telepathic experiences (ESP). Some force binds all persons together. Also see the readings of Edgar Cayce.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A most interesting statement, and if your experiences are actually verified, they will surely be written up in scientific journals for peer review. It would be truly exciting news for the world if telepathy were known to be true. Where can I read the study?
  
  What force is that, that binds people together? We only know of 4 basic forces, is this a new one you have discovered or one of the 4?
  
  I cannot for the life of me see any reason to read the works of Cayce; he has nothing to say of any value at all as he deals only with imagination and not reality.
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  Jay C OBrienposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You may read, "My Telepathic Experiences" a hub.
  Have you studied the Cayce readings or have you already decided?
  Try an ARE Study Group for your own personal experiences.
  Alternatively try Silva-Ultramind training.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you.
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  Gnostic Bishopposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Apotheosis is possible but if one suffers it, like I have, then the definition of God changes from supernatural to natural and belief in that God is quite possible. The thing is, that belief can only be a hope, until as Revelation hints, we elect a new God.
  
  Apotheosis made me a lower case god but there is no higher case God unless we decide to make it so.
  Please do not ask for proof as no proof ever comes with apotheosis.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes … r_embedded
  
  Regards
  DL
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Watt (! ) wonderfully enlightened understanding. Thanks for that link.
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  Gnostic Bishopposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My pleasure and pleased that you enjoyed it.
  
  http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html
  
  Regards
  DL
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  To me, the person that says God does not actually exist except in someone's mind, is expressing belief about something they don't actually know.
  
  But if someone COULD know for sure, that God does not exist, then they would be believing in an absolute lie to believe he did. (IF they believed in the God they knew didn't exist, which is a take like Emiles kind of.)This is a very interesting point of view, and way to look at it Jonny, I think!
  
  I think its absolutely possible that everyone that believes in God, could be very well believing in something that actually exists on its own, apart from any of our approval or disapproval of it. Something that has revealed itself, and done everything on its/his/her own terms, and lets the rest decide as they will. (With the will given to them) Regardless, if so, its all a big gift for what we have now, even if a person decides to fall out of that god's terms. (This last is going with the idea of a god existing, and I think He does, which is no news to you. )
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I am not trying to convince you that your god does not exist. Because your belief does not affect my unbelief. We can exist side by side, equal partners in this world, without having to become totally in agreement.
  
  Conversely, I trust you are not trying to convince me that to take on your beliefs is the way I should conduct my life.
  
  Belief is belief in something that cannot be proven one way or the other.
  
  To "know" emphatically is when you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is so.
  
  To settle for an assumption is ok, provided it's recognised as such.
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  Venkatachari Mposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, Johnny, I agree with you that we can still be good friends- I, with my God and You, with no belief in Him.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A little bit late, as it looks like I never responded to your answer to me, from the first page.
  
  (I think I cut some off here, and can't remember what I wrote, sorry....) You may not be trying to convince anyone that their god doesn't exist, but I can't help but wonder a little bit when you say some of the things you do to Christians, in a matter of fact way, regarding things being in their mind only. Something you don't know for sure. It could be seen as a form of ridicule. I don't take you to be a cruel person, so wonder if its not a little form of cajoling or something. I can't help but wonder if people aren't trying to get some to not believe. That said, I totally agree "we can exist side by side, equal partners in this world, without having to become totally in agreement." I think that is well put!
  
  I don't need to try to convince you to take on my beliefs, as a way to conduct your life. I trust that especially since you are in these forums, you would ask me outright, anything you wanted, and you have in the past I think. Some could take an atheists constant involvement in religious forums, about religions they don't believe in, to be an invitation of sorts to discuss these things.
  
  If I had any goal, it would be to encourage all of us to consider whatever it is we believe and why, and test that philosophy or belief against all we know of in humanity. Is the belief I hold, able to explain what I observe in this world, in a satisfactory way? Does it answer my (or man's) biggest questions?
  
  Belief may not be able to be proven 100%, but any belief can come out on top, in the way of ideas. Like if I believe something that fails as an idea for any number of reasons, sure it is my right to still believe it, but it would not be warranted, nor the best idea available to me. Then I would have to ask why that view is so attractive to me, if it fails in some legitimate measure.
  
  Perhaps you are bumping up against some people's absolute faith that they hold, that something is emphatically true, that they cannot prove satisfactorily to you. If Christianity, then god seems to esteem faith for reasons he has seemed to be fitting, and to which I can ponder and read more about.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oceans, I do not intend to be cruel and don't usually try to ridicule (except when someone has said what I feel is a slur on my character or generally tries to denigrate my opinions to the gutter.)
  
  When I say something is in a person's mind, I mean just that, without any intent to be rude. When there is no physical, rational proof of a god's existence, and no finite physical explanations can be given, then that perceived "god" can only exist in the human mind. As far as we know, there are no other animals which exhibit an ability to contemplate a god. Our human mind, via the normal functions of metabolism and physiology, is able to think from an abstract premise. That is how the concept of "God" can arise in the mind.
  
  We have had numerous evangelists here in HubPages willing to say categorically that the atheist point of view is wrong, and that a belief in God, via Jesus of the christian bible, is the only way for any of us to progress.
  
  Some of those people get very hurt when someone repudiates that christian stand point. All I wish to do is confront with an opposite point of view. Fair's fair. And if someone feels their "faith" is being insulted, then what substance in and how strong is that faith, in the face of honesty?
  
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, Jonny. Thanks for the clarification. If it helps to know how it sounds, it sounds like sometimes people are talking about believers as if they are just crazy, as if making things up in their minds. So now we understand each other a little bit better I think.
  
  I wanted to offer up this idea also, as it occurred to me that some may not know. As for Christians and their beliefs, many have taken the ideas offered up by atheists and others as being possibly true. In other words, is it possibly true, that I am just making this up, or that it is all just in my head, or just all being taken totally by faith alone, nothing else added? I have taken such charges seriously, personally, and know many other that have.
  
  For instance, I test out my ideas, line them up against other possibilities, test them for logic, rationality, test them against history, look at their moral value, etc. I don't want to believe things for poor reasons. I wanted to take the challenges seriously. I am happy to talk about any of the topics surrounding what I believe too. I think I will write on more of them also, so as to not rehash them all in forums all the time.
  
  The reason I share all of that, is that after testing what I think best explains our reality, in the form of ideas and beliefs, my beliefs fit it best, above all others. I did all of that while trying to be as unbiased as possible, almost starting over, reproving it all, as if trying to let the evidences lead where they may. So for me, at this point, it would be less logical, rational, reasonable, etc, to lose the beliefs I have held onto all this time. I haven't stopped testing it either. I know I could possibly be wrong. I know not all of us can be right. Truth matters to me, very much, thus the ongoing testing.
  
  The finer details on particular points, and then a cumulative case tips it over the top of all other world views, all other religions. This is me, speaking for myself, and I know of others too. So, for whatever that is worth, I am confident when I say, this isn't just in my mind, its actually to me, the best view I have ever heard or known of. So for someone else to say it, I look at that as them expressing their own beliefs about other's (like mine) beliefs, while they present it as fact. Just wanted to share that I have tried very hard for myself personally, to not be fitting of that idea, that it is "all just in her head" or whatever. It truly, honestly isn't. That faith is involved, is I think true for every last one of us for whatever we believe. So what takes the least faith? That Jesus esteemed faith the way he did, shows that someone that doesn't have the time to study or the inclination to do so, isn't to be kept from the same possible good news and what comes with embracing it. Like the thief on the cross, he didn't get to weigh out everything like I have, but he got the benefit, because he responded and Jesus knew his heart. I think while risky on people that wait for possible death bed conversions, and the like, I think its wonderful to not be excluded from God's plan, unless we insist on it. Again, all this coming from what I have found to be true about life, views, gods vs possible lack of gods, etc.
  
  As for progress, there is all forms of that. One need not be a Christian to progress, depending on what you mean exactly. Yes, fairs fair. I appreciate your response, and understand a bit better now, thank you.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Jonny...!!!
  I heard you call me earlier... I was busy with the political crowd.
  Sorry to delay...
  If one believes God to be only in his mind, then he is on your side. So, no.
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  sibtain bukhariposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It Is not possible for me to "believe in" GOD, if I know that GOD does not actually exist, except in my mind?,the reason is that'' presence of GOD'',is ''knowledge'' or experience'' and not ''a presumption'' or''blind belief'',consequently, my ''knowledge'' of absence of GOD,if it is knowledge,will it self reject ,my ''blind belief'' of GOD,if it is blind belief.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  presence of GOD'',is ''knowledge'' or experience is only the way in which you perceive it. What you perceive as "presence" is probably the feelings you have when in a state of prayer, or when you are simply feeling really good about yourself. Most of us have had such feelings, haven't we? How do we describe those feelings? Uplifting; warmth; comfortable; safe; righteous; hopeful...... all manner of analogies to describe feelings from many different happenings in life, that cannot be precisely described.
  
  Your feeling that God is present does not indicate the real physical presence of a person. You have already admitted that God is not physical but "spirit." If you cannot describe "God" in physical terms without using physically understood metaphor, then stop trying to. Just accept within your self your own experiences, stop trying to impose those experiences on others; let them experience for themselves. I have had my own so I can warm to you having yours, without wishing to impose mine onto you.
  
  The only reason I can think of, that you would wish to impose your religious beliefs onto me, is in order to control me and my life. Is this not so?
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  Emile Rposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Johnny, I know through experience that there is a higher power. That's all. Having that knowledge doesn't jeopardize anyone else's freedom to do anything they choose to do. It can't control you, your life or anyone else and their life. All it does is tell me that there is something which has caused humanity to, from the beginning, strive to connect.
  
  You can chalk the experiences of others up to personal feelings. I know that isn't true. I chalk religion up to 99% fill in the blanks. But, that 1% I know to be true drives the need for information which makes many people accept the other 99% their particular religion passes off as truth.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Emile, thank you - I have no problems there. For sure, the Higher Power is real for each and every one of us, consciously or not, and when we (I) do encounter it, the Universe opens before us.
  It's the human limitations and concocted beliefs that bother me.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You say, "What you perceive as 'presence' is probably the feelings you have when in a state of prayer, or when you are simply feeling really good about yourself. Most of us have had such feelings, haven't we? How do we describe those feelings? Uplifting; warmth; comfortable; safe; righteous; hopeful......" We have certainly all had the feelings of which you speak, but these feelings are only a small taste of that which is experienced during a spiritual manifestation or when in the presence of the Lord (at least during an outpouring of the Holy Spirit). I compare the supernatural experience or the manifest Holy Spirit to the experience of being "high", as such an experience has for me resembled that much more than any of these more ordinary experiences you mention (though a simple peace and comfort is often present when abiding in the Lord, as opposed to having the Spirit poured onto/into us). I've never taken drugs, but I'm very affected by laughing gas at the dentist and get "high" off that. That's the closest in feeling of my nonreligious experiences compared to my experiences with the Lord. (For those of you not affected by laughing gas to the extent I am, so that you are not "high", think of any experiences you may have had getting high on other drugs, which will come closer to what I'm talking about.)
  
  Also, in my experience, these feelings are not always "positive" from a natural point of view. Much in the same way that the light of God and angelic beings is too bright for humans, and the way fear was induced in the people within Scriptures by the sight of angels (which overwhelms us in the natural), I've had times of discomfort in the presence of the Lord as well (though yes I often have intense warmth, comfort, peace and so on). Examples of the less comfortable or simply strange experiences during Spiritual or supernatural experiences - intense jolts and pressure that could knock me over if I let it, a strange feeling of cycling in my brain/mind/spirit, discomfort behind my eyes. I've at times suppressed an urge to scream and have even pushed the Spirit away because it was simply too much for me. I'm learning to continue on in it, and generally the only discomfort is a strange slightly uncomfortable sensation behind my eyes. When my eyes are closed and I feel the strange sensation of "cycling" to an alternate existence (I guess going into the spiritual realm or whatever is happening), I over and over see a vision of two nostrils growing larger, as if God is breathing on/in me.
  
  BTW, my initial experiences cannot be said to be related to my expectations, as they came as quite a shock to me in the beginning (why I almost screamed on several occasions) and came before I learned about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit - which I took great interest in learning about AFTER my first-hand experiences.
  
  My experiences with the Holy Spirit produced a great hunger in me, so that I began to seek and wait for him and pray for more and more of his Spirit to be poured out (kind of like an addict in a way). He won't always respond, but when he does it's amazing. I go through seasons when I just don't put in the effort (we can be so lazy in the natural), but suddenly I'm hungering for more of him and begin to seek and wait again, seek and wait. I get frustrated and agitated at times when he delays, and I get quite discontent and disillusioned when it comes to most church and religious activities when I want to experience him RIGHT THERE WITH US in love and power and presence. It often seems a lot of busyness with rituals and words and such in many meetings and services. But then suddenly the outpouring of the Spirit comes, sometimes when I've almost given up or least expect him.
  
  Not every Christian has YET or even will experience an outpouring of the Spirit, but if and when they do they will understand the hunger it creates within us for more and more of it. Everything else in life pales in comparison once you've been "high" on the Holy Spirit.
  
  You say the goal of our witness to you is to "control your life", but our goal is not to CONTROL your life, but rather to introduce you to the One who can SAVE your life. I don't desire that you change in any way (the Holy Spirit is responsible for changing us into the image of Christ), but I do want you to know the ONLY TRUE TRUTH (and not one of your/our own design or making, and not a self-worshiping one, but a God-worshiping one), and I want you to know the LOVE of the Heavenly Father for you!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok CAT333, everything you have related to your own experience is fine. I can respect that and let it be.
  
  But when you then say what you "want" for me, stop right there. Mind your own business, stop presuming your understanding is for me.
  
  I share my understandings here simply for you to consider my point of view, not to presume that you must agree. If you don't agree with me that is also fine..... but you are not in a position to declare my views absolutely wrong. For all you know at least some of what I say will be right and in the long term found to be right. They might be wrong. For now, that does not matter.
  
  You live by absolutes. You regard your religious views as being the be-all-and-end-all of every argument. Go live by those if you wish. But you are NOT entitled to impose such beliefs on others with the presumption that your interpretations are right and others are wrong. You have no authority to preach to others. You are free to share your views, as I have stated so many times; and as I have shared mine.
  
  Personal views from either you or myself are just that. Personal. Not necessarily true or supportable always.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I've given you testimony that you can consider or not, and in the end take or leave. Perhaps a useful seed that right now you don't desire and have no taste for, but that may take root at a later point.
  
  I understand your thoughts on this, but truly we are not "islands" as the saying goes, and for many of us here (who are not the gossipers and busybodies whose "interest" in others is a negative thing), it truly is love that compels us to take interest in the lives of others. Please understand that hoping and desiring for others is not the same as forcing others. I have hope for many things for many people, including myself - that the troubled person will find peace and joy, that the addict will overcome their addiction, that the thief will steal no more, that the anxious or insecure person will become empowered, that the captive person will come out of bondage, that the racist person will appreciate the beauty in all God's people, that the proud person will take a voluntary step down, that the hardened person will open themselves to love, and on and on. I think you have hopes and desires for us as well, as it comes across in your posts, so there may exist a bit of an unrecognized double standard here (which all humans are so prone to). Please don't resent our well-meaning hopes and desires for you.
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  kessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Can any belief exist outside the mind....
  
  Can anything for that matter exist to you without your mind....
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Can any belief exist outside the mind.... Good point. I would say "No."
  
  Can anything for that matter exist to you without your mind.... .... To me? I would say no. I can presume that something exists, but there's no proof, is there?
  
  I am suggesting that each belief depends upon the believer wanting to believe and he/she thus looks around for something to justify that belief.
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  kessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  All beliefs/ unbelief originates and resides within alone.
  The external is only a confirmation of that internal and thus most unstable for it is weak to sustain itself.
  
  Therefore the one who sustains himself by it it's unstable himself.
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  SharmaRoshanposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Hello jonny.
  
  Belief is not something that appears as image or thoughts, but spiritual experience does add as an experience turns into a belief in your system.
  
  So when the sage says, he has experienced his soul, and through soul, he confirms God and his presence. Not in a human form, but in the experience. Not that god travels to earth, but the man in his highest spiritual experience, experience God.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Sharma Roshan. It is the experience that brings realisation. However, is it not the choice of how we view the experience which makes a big difference to our perception?
  
  If the intention is to only view the experience through habitually clouded lenses, then the comprehension will be similarly clouded. If someone tries to describe to me their understanding of what they see, yet they are viewing is as a person with severe myopia, then I will get the wrong picture. If I am also suffering severe myopia, my view will compound the misunderstanding; as so on and so forth.
  
  Step out of the distorted view of life, get some attention from an optometrist, and I begin to see things more clearly.
  
  Your views, here and in your hubs, are helpful, thank you again.
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  cjhunsingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That which is reasonable and factual has never stopped anyone from believing the opposite. People believe in deities for a myriad of reasons and none have anything to do with reality. Barack Obama is a good example of blind belief. People are essentially self-servicing and greedy and when a promise is made to support that type of personality, someone who is unqualified becomes perhaps, the most powerful man on earth. Gods are essentially the same. Fear and guilt are the primary motivators for the belief in gods and the overall desire to be rescued from the responsibility from life.
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  Artois52posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Is it possible that God cannot exist, simply because you do not believe in him, in your own mind?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Certainly possible, and most probable.
  
  I will reply to your Cuban Crisis hub later...
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  God exists regardless of belief or knowledge of Him, but to you in some ways it's "as if" He doesn't exist because you've cut yourself off from Him.
  
  Just saw here that you referred to me as a man in this forum, and I've noticed elsewhere you regularly use "he" to refer to me. Not a big deal, I guess, given that there is no male or female in Christ, but since in the natural I'm a woman, I'd prefer to be referred to as one. Thanks.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My apologies, can't think where I got that mistake from.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Apology accepted.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  How could an existence of a god, depend on such things though?
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If we are gods, as some say, perhaps our very thoughts can create, in some other plane of existence. Even create gods - gods which cannot exist without a creator(s).
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I honestly have no words with which to respond, but wanted you to know I see the response. Thanks.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  LOL That's what happens when imagination is given a completely free rein - the thoughts and ideas that come out have no reply possible.
  
  Still, it can be fun sometimes, playing the "what if" game.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  We're not gods, but having been made in the Creator's image, we can certainly create (creating and thereby progressing distinguish us from the animals more than anything), and this means we can even create imaginary "gods". Whether deceived by an evil spirit presenting as a god, or using purely imagination, people have been doing this throughout history, resulting in a multitude of false gods being worshiped. Because God put within us the need and desire to know and worship Him, humans are prone to this creating of imaginary gods.
  
  As for the One True God, our very existence depends on Him, and He is more real than we are, as we are temporal and dependent created things. He is not far from any one of us, and He waits patiently for all who will come to Him. When you meet Him, you will know it and no one will need to convince you of what you yourself will have experienced and witnessed first hand.
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  Trichakraposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that god exist.
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  BibiLuzarragaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  In my honest opinion, 'god' may be defined as 'Good Orderly Direction' (I read that phrase in a book many years ago; Consuelo D Luzarraga (Bibi.)
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Is it possible for one not to "believe in" god, even though one knows that god does actually exist? Please
  Regards
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Is mere thought of the mind proof of existence?
  Please, describe to me the thoughts of your own mind without resorting to metaphor - if you are able to.
  What is "god" if not a metaphor?
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Quran/Islam/Muhammad did not invent the word “Allah”, a proper name of G-d, One-God in the Arabic language. It is and was used by other religions also. Other people of other languages could have a different name for the being with some attributes of Him that could be corrected to correspond with those given in Quran, reasonably. It is not a metaphor. Is it? Please
  Regards
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Is Mohammed flying on a winged horse to the heavens would be considered a metaphor, or did it actually happened?
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  It was a vision, but it is not mentioned in Quran, the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam whatever the denomination. Please
  Regards
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Mohammed flew several times on a white mule took him 12 years and angel took his heart out to purified it. It is written in the hadith yet not conclusive.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Hadith was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad. Quran is the first and foremost source of guidance for all Muslims whatever the denomination. Hadith is only referred to if it is not against the Quran. Hadith did not exist in the time of Muhammad. Please
  Muhammad was a peaceful and pure person like or more than the other prophets/messengers of G-d. Does one believe in G-d and His prophets/messengers? Please
  Regards
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Many people change over and mistaken many Messiah or prophets, how can they find it possible to know the true one religion among too many Religions to choose from.
  
  My ethics of no harm and be honest holds strongly true more than any 1000s or millions of Religions out there. Have not traveled the universe yet have traveled a 100 countries, close enough.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  It is one instinct of a human being to probe for Truth, so one could make search and continue it. Right? Please
  Regards
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I found my centre and source of Good intentions and found we are all God yet
  environmental organisms first.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  It is a wrong notion, but one can have it as a choice is given by G-d to believe or not to believe. Right? Please
  Regards
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  In Muslims culture and countries the people only obey the Constitution that their God is all Superior to every person and thing. They are only interested in their hierarchy God and certainty not in a democracy system. No worries US is not a true democracy system neither. There is very little room for freedom or diversity ways of thinking or living.
  
  If 6 billion people on the planet do not choose a Muslims as their form of God and it"s limited way of thinking. Those who don't believe in the Muslim God are punish unmerciful forever in hell. Sounds more like a dictatorship of fear , not love for all or not freedom for all.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  We are discussing here religion not the form of government. Aren't we?Please
  Religion is not for governing others and for doing politics. Right? Please
  
  Regards
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  wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  No. Belief in something known to be untrue cannot happen. One may act as if they have that belief, but they know better.
  
  Thus is it not possible for anyone that knows there is no god to believe in one, either. Of course, left unsaid is that such knowledge, either way, is impossible to have (with common definitions of "God") and belief is all that is possible.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I have been reading through this thread from the beginning...amazing ! Such intersting contributions and mostly in a respectful and positive mood.
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, he dose take apart Religion well, without downing them so much.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  My belief is based on certainty. Please
  Regards
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  wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  How do you come by that certainty? Do you have real evidence or have you merely convinced yourself that it isn't necessary to be certain?
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Certainty has three stages.
  
  First level is ‘Certainty through inference’
  The second level of certainty is ‘Certainty through Sight’, whereby we do not need the help of reason.
  The third level of certainty is ‘Perfect Certainty’
  
  My level is the first one. Please
  
  Regards
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  Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  In the US you would be influences by Jesus and inference is not as strong as the word belief. Inference you assume, guess and so on.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  You therefore choose what suits your mind to accept as certainty. It's a purely subjective process for you. Why would I or anyone else wish to take on your limited perceptions of certainty? I most certainly would not.
  I prefer to keep my self open to all the beautiful vistas of life that this world provides for me.
  Religious beliefs don't do that for me. They represent only the desires of other people to control my life to their ways and choices.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't restrict one on anything. One has a free choice to believe or not to believe.
  How does one get certainty? Will one elaborate? Please
  Regards
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  It's good that you allow freedom of choice then.
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  wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  But ‘Certainty through inference’ is just another way of saying that you believe because you like the result. You can, and will, infer anything that pleases you.
  
  In the world of reality this is called "imagination" and does not necessarily bear any relation to the world around us. It is not "certainty" in any sense of the word; even you cannot state that it is true, just that you like it.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't reasoning based on inference? Please
  Regards
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Freedom to accept or reject that inference?
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  If the reason or inference is wrong then one may reject it, but if the reason or inference from reason is correct then it won't be right to reject it.
  Regards
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  Who decides which is right, which is wrong?
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I decide for myself but others also may advise me if I am wrong. Isn't that essence of democracy?
  The same for other persons. Please
  Regards
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  No. That is the essense of religious/political control.
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  We human beings are social beings, being social suggests that we should have consultation among us. Right? Please
  Regards
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  So you "consult," then get told what is right, right?
  Or are you the one who is telling?
  And since you are using you belief in a supernatural being as your authority, what benefit will you gain from consultation? The only objective is what?
  I can only see you as a brother (might be sister) human being who is searching for meaning in your life.
  Buddhists, Jews, followers of Mohammed, Jesus, Confusius, atheists, agnostics, everyone....we can each travel the road of discovery and acknowledge, respect others on their journey. There is no need for absolute conformity.
  Simply allow what ever vision of God you have in your mind to be your Guiding Light ... and allow others to have theirs. See the landscape as a tapestry if you like. The diversity is beautiful!
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  paarsurreyposted 7 years agoin reply to this
  I don't restrict anybody on anything. Please
  Everybody has the choice to believe or not to believe, but one should be reasonable. Reason is the language of understanding one another. Right? Please
  Regards
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Donald Ogbaposted 9 years ago
I guess, this can be the case when there is internal clash between what one have come to know now and what one have always been made to believe! If one succeeds in freeing him or herself from the shackles of indoctrination, the problem is, there will always be some remnants of what he or she believed that will remain within. May be that's what you mean by "in your mind". So, I think the answer to your question is: It is is possible. But, in such a situation, the person will be going through "belief crisis".
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Zelkiiroposted 9 years ago
My beliefs depend upon Lord Vamp consistently making the perfect chicken dumpling stew from his secret evil headquarters week in and week out. If for some reason he failed to do so, my world would crumble and all existence would be meaningless.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  At least Lord Vamp and his Satanic fiend are real....no one can question their existence!
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
And 66 antiquated books.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  haha, yes... at last a truth!
  
  Not saying their aren't some very useful things to read, when they are understood for what they are, i.e., part history, part myth, part someone's interpretation of what they wish to read.
  
  The human needs of peoples down through the ages do not change much. We all need food, shelter, companionship, a sense of belonging. Also something to give us hope and encouragement in times of despair; and something to reflect upon in times of uplifting circumstances.
  
  All human.
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mdscogginsposted 9 years ago
I agree with the first part of your question - I believe in GOD. However, knowing that God does not exist is problematic for me. No I cannot see a figure of God, that is true, but I have experienced the blessings of God where I did not have to physically see him to know that it was God's work. In the same sense that I cannot see the air that I breathe but take it away and I will quickly notice my death. So in the manner I do not question the power of oxygen despite my inability to visualize it and that is how I see my God. I do not have to physically see a figure to know that God truly exists.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. It's the personal statement and belief/understanding that I respect.
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  Venkatachari Mposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Very good reply. I was thinking of this air example. But I didn't know how to put it forward. You have replied smartly. Just like we do not see air, we are unable to see the spirit or God. But we feel and experience God just like air. Thanks for clearing it.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Using the existence of air is not a very good analogy. Science can and does show us the nature and characteristics of air. The experiments are repeatable and convincing and proof of its existence.
  Science does not come into beliefs. Beliefs are what we can fall back on to be convinced when there is no direct evidence -- valid for the person holding those beliefs, and I can respect the person holding them, but they are not supportable by direct evidence. Once you do have direct evidence, the belief can be discarded.
  In the case of air, all the old pre-science beliefs about it can be dropped as being antiquated and no longer relevant.
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sibtain bukhariposted 9 years ago
Jonnycomelately,''Belief'',if it is not blind belief,is result of ''knowledge''and ''experience'',for example,I have knowledge of infinite existence of universe that concludes ONE who brought it in to existence,I have also knowledge that existence of universe is not proved by self or self existence,therefore,this is the great and undeniable evidence for GOD for all,although,in this way,we have no direct knowledge of GOD,but reason will conclude the same,now if I share all this knowledge then how this is imposition of my ideas over others? as all have this evidence of universe before them,now ''direct knowledge'' of God is the ''self experience'',and this is individual as well as universal,this is universal because this is not experience of'' external spirit'',this is experience of ''self'',you have ''belief in yourself'',this is'' direct experience'',this is not indirect knowledge through evidence,you believe yourself not because you have ''seen'' yourself but because you have ''direct knowledge'',or ''self experience '',this ''self experience'' is the ''experience of GOD'',and therefore,universal, as all have this belief of'' their selves'',and this is ''essence of life''.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It seems like all your "knowledge" is what you have read from somewhere. You choose what you want to read, therefore your knowledge is restricted to that, and it cannot therefore be universal.
  
  Apart from this, with respect, I find your writing most confusing, so it's difficult to reply in detail. You have not for one moment given me any reason to change my opinion. Was that your objective? Were you hoping to convince me something about your god?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to be suggesting that all you know about the world's bible debunker info has come from somewhere OTHER than books...???
  I know you like to think that your brain is capable, but...you do not know how to test for air bubbles. lol...
  You heard them say... and you bought. (At least we may SEE Dr. So-n-so...) but we have NO IDEA who/what he is. Yes, people may repeat the test and give more knowledge??? But we may never know for sure. We put our Fa-th in the story that sounds best.
  I wonder why that FACT is so darned hard to believe.
  Short...we SEE the supposed findings; but it also is guesswork.
  Jesus don't do no guessin'
  Many just "believe" the OTHER message...
  Fine by me...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Gobbledegook!
  
  Fine by you, not by me.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Gobble what???
  Do not sit there and act like you know...QUICK!!! give me the formula for air bubble testing...
  
  If you send me a link, I'm gonna hurl... I needs ta do the test myself thanks. I cannot see air. I BET it aint there... lol!!!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You don't see "soap" in your laundry tub. That foam is bubbles of air, tied up with water. You can't see the air, or the water in fact. All you see is light reflected back from the surface of the bubbles.
  
  True?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yep! No air; no water.
  Formula please... I just don't go believing people I do not know. I see glass balls that make a smooth foam in my laundry tub!!! No air. What is all this talk about imaginary air???
  As you can see, I am having a LOT of fun with this.
  My point: We ALL "believe" something without one iota of first-hand knowledge.
  We place our faith where we want.
  Now, if you can show me yourself how air came to be, and withersoever it goeth...we may be able to talk about this without me busting my sides.
  From the top...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  As I understand it, and always open to further information from scientific minds that fully understand it, that foam is not soap. The balls you put into the wash have some kind of wetting agent which changes the surface tension of the water. That foam is minute packets of air enclosed within a film of water.
  
  Do see how useful science is to our understanding? When religion ruled the waves science had to take a back seat.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Air, Man!!! I need to know exactly how you KNOW that air is there? Did someone tell you that? Did you trust their "evidence"? If so, why?
  I don't care about air. We've got plenty where I'm from.
  Jesus...he was a man. He said some stuff. Those who say yes to what he says, come to know him on a personal level. Those who say no, don't. Those who say maybe, are tossed about from this to that.
  I'm a tree. one of them big ones... I think he was right. That gives me an edge in the knowledge of him. See??? Probably not, but questions do no good if you already "know" the answer. I think Jesus knew that...
  Our answers are WRONG. We need the "cheat sheet" to take the test. we've got many books about it, conveniently bound into one...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Can you learn anything factual about air from your bible? The books were written a long time before any scientific evidence was obtained about the true nature of air, so you would not expect to find anything of value there.
  You bible can give you a sense of comfort and a feeling that you are being "good" in the eyes of your god, and it can give some interesting and useful lessons about living life. But it cannot be a substitute for modern knowledge in the understanding of science.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong!!! My bible says there is no one "good" but one. It also says some other stuff that really makes one feel bad... so much for the great feelings you mentioned.
  However, comfort is something that I do receive; thanks for noticing.
  The true nature of air is, it blows, and no one can tell the origin or destination of it; that's what the bible does say, and I think that's true.
  We do not look for science in the bible, though much is there. That's the reason for Science books. But be careful...Science doesn't "know" much of anything; that's why they hypothesize (guess).
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The Wind is nothing less than air flowing from a region of higher pressure to a region of lower pressure.
  Your belief that you are sinful and cannot be a good person without that belief in biblical things, has been taught to you by people who wish to control your mind.
  It seems they have succeeded.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  High pressure, low pressure... I still must have faith in you as an authority in air, before I believe you know anything about it. See??? I must know of you and believe you to take in what you say. Seems God only wants believers with him. No belief no problem.
  I cannot be a "good" person because it is not possible. I was taught THAT by the many people with which I have come in contact.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "I cannot be a "good" person because it is not possible. I was taught THAT by the many people with which I have come in contact. smile"
  
  The major reason I have totally rejected the religion of Christianity. Control, control, control.... and they have you by the you-know-what.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Remember this one thing... you are always being controlled. Step out on any public street with your man parts exposed...
  There is an order to most things. To keep order there must be control. The only difference in worldly training vs God's is that he gives you a choice in whether or not you want to be controlled by him.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Cgenaea, you will never change your mind in relation to my point of view. I will never become a "believer" in the same way that you are. So why do we bother? It doesn't really matter anyway....
  
  However, I have a question for you: since belief and faith are uppermost in your philosophy, just supposing you were being tried in a court of law for some misdemeanor, perhaps even an extremely serious one which would carry a very heavy punishment if you were found guilty.
  
  Now, you know full well that you are innocent of the charge. Your defense attorney has put up a very good presentation on your behalf, providing evidence that is well substantiated and sufficient to exonerate you in the ordinary course of events.
  
  Suddenly, the prosecuting attorney jumps up, addresses the jury, with some really convincing, emotionally-loaded ideas which "appeal" to the jury. It all sounds plausible, backed up by popular beliefs about "your sort of person." You are declared guilty..... on the basis of the jury's beliefs about you, not on the basis of evidence. How would you feel? Would you protest loudly?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jonny...you just told my (almost) exact story. Unjustly accused; unjustly tried; unjustly represented. My guy said, "oh just take the little 6mo probation (edit: i mean supervision). It wont hurt you as long as you stay out of trouble (but I already do that mr defense attorney; and look what i get!!!). Your word against theirs and who do you think the judge will believe?"
  No, I didn't protest loudly. At that point in my life, I had no strength or courage. Nor did i have any knowledge of the judicial system. I just let them rake me over the coals and I speak to all who will listen, now.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Fair enough... I am listening now.
  
  And you seek forgiveness, right? And when you listen to that still, small voice of calm, inside of you, who is that residing in you? Is that the one who's forgiveness you seek?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, jonny... the one in my head is the one whose forgiveness I seek. Lol...
  That forgiveness is guaranteed in my position though. However, there are some things that I haven't forgiven MYSELF for but I know that God has... HA!!!!
  Thanks for listening!!! I was totally innocent of my Earthly charge. No forgiveness for that needed; 'Cept for that cop...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe that "one in your head" is the one that is telling you, "you are not worthy to be forgiven."
  
  Yet your God is infinitely deeper than that mind in your head. He/She is at the core of your being...the pure essence of who you are, your complete self. Your God is saying to you, "Yes I am a worthy human being, complete and sufficient, just as I am, without one plea."
  
  Thus you need to look no further. You may know your self as a beautiful, lovely, loving person, totally independent of those in authority who would label you as unworthy, guilty, unforgivable. You no longer need to bow down.
  
  Now your Cup of Love Runneth Over and can be shared with others.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Good try...
  Thank you, no.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Cgenaea, you are a beautiful woman of God!!
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh stop it...
  Not I...
  I love your glasses though. We have a very similar shade. You are a beautiful woman of God!!!
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you!!
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  sibtain bukhariposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I just, simplify,my arguments,the existence of universe and our's is evidence for God as we have no proof of self existence of universe and our's,this is sufficient evidence for believing for GOD,this is ''knowledge'' of every one who lives in this universe and this is the conclusion of reason of every one as there is no other conclusion for the same,this is indirect knowledge,knowledge through universe,knowledge through reason,knowledge through argument,therefore,our selves provide ''experience'' of GOD,self experience is experience of GOD as my knowledge of my self is ''direct knowledge'',I know my self not through body but because ''I am'',I do not require to prove me for my self,I am ''proven'' for me,I do not require any argument to prove me for myself,interestingly,I do not know my self ,but I have ''direct knowledge of my presence'',what is this?,this is experience of self,and every one has this ''experience'' and ''belief'',this is universal and this source of'' direct knowledge of GOD'',we know presence of our GOD because we know presence of ourselves ,therefore,our belief of GOD is result of our direct and indirect knowledge,but this is knowledge of ''presence'' not of ''essence'',we do not know who is GOD,we know HE is present,although, we recognize HIM through HIS blessings and some of HIS attributes,the man is free to recognize GOD or not,to obey or not,when GOD has created you free,then, who am I to impose my beliefs upon you?,I respect your ideas and will expect for the same.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I understand that now. Thank you for clarifying. I certainly respect your views. I am very much in agreement of the above.
  
  These days, since I left the christian faith several years ago, I feel uncomfortable with the He and Him when speaking of "God." I know the masculine is accepted as a convenient use of the pronoun in relation to God, but in this context I would like it recognised that the male and female human attributes are equally represented.
  
  Finally, as I have stated several times in other hubs and discussions, I don't reject the notion of a creator, the nature of which we cannot understand or imagine. I do personally reject the other notion of a "God" "out there somewhere" who sits in judgment of us humans. The latter I see as the attempt at human control over others... a sort of bullying, sometimes intention and at other times unintentional.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
And as such, the non-believer does not want to believe, for whatever reason.
But we all "believe" something...
Naysayers "believe" that the presented information is horse puckey. Belief, nevertheless. It is not difficult. The atheist says, no. THAT is what they believe. Only two options.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But are you wanting others to believe like you do? Or are you willing to allow that either "belief" is valid for the individual?
  
  Or are you saying adamantly that there is only one "correct" belief?
  
  Can your belief and my non-belief exist, side-by-side, without interfering with each other?
  
  Extend your answer, if you will, to include what nations and cultures say to each other, not just the individual person. If a culture or a nation says, "We must go out and get everyone else to believe, act, perform as we do; and they must relinquish their beliefs in favour of ours," ....... this would presumably come from the people of that culture or nation? And it would therefore be very difficult for both cultures to exist peacefully, side-by-side. All because a difference of beliefs. What a crazy situation!
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Now you KNOW I am not invested in YOUR belief. God gave you your own brain...
  You may believe as you so desire.
  ...just telling the story as given to me.
  "Bull..." is a very acceptable answer.
  Now, one of us is DEFINITELY right... don't you "hope" it's you???
  My "hope" is elsewhere.
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sibtain bukhariposted 9 years ago
Thanks for agreeing,''A true GOD'' will never ''control'' the ego of man,HE will awaken the same,the ego will it self control the man,a true religion if any,will be nothing but self awakening,self conscious,and self control and a true messenger will realize you of yourself .
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  With all that self; seems there would be no room for a god... self rules. But everyone's got a self. If all react based upon self; order would not be. Opinions are like a-holes...
  Here, we are ruled, not by the laws of God; but by that of man. Pastor always said, "You gon' hear SOMEbody. "
  My point is, rulers are everywhere. We get to choose the one who matters most. However, if there is a creator, and he actually sent the bible for our reproof; self is hazardous for the group. Self changes from day to day.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No Cgenaea. You are confusing The Self with selfishness. The latter is ego, putting one's own wants above all else.
  
  The religion that has been built upon the name of a mythical person of antiquity has cooked and distorted minds. If that person of "jesus" heard you talking up him and his name to revere him as a god outside of yourself, he would say to you "Get behind me, Satan!"
  The pure Christ is to be found at the very center of your being. This is where you find the I AM.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  When The Focus is The Self...the latter (ego) is the result. I have confused nothing.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's no use arguing. Let your journey of discovery be the one you choose. My journey is sometimes parallel to yours, sometimes divergent. I bid you farewell.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  An argument can be a stupendous avenue to discovery. However, we have danced this waltz a million times. No sense arguing.
  On a journey, where one is headed is of ultimate importance. My destination is heaven. Where you headed? If you don't mind my asking.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I have a few ideas for the future, no plans, because the future never arrives.
  I am happy in This Moment, the most important moment in this world.
  Heaven is not some time ahead in the infinite distance. It is Here and Now - the Most Difficult space for a rich person to enter.
  
  And how far ahead for you is the entrance to Heaven, Cgenaea?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No man knows the hour or day...
  If you ask me, the rich man is in now's heaven. But his riches are molestable. God's are not.
  Here and now are admirable destinations! Enjoy!!!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The I AM = The Here and Now = Infinity : meaning It cannot be measured.
  
  Church-centered religion seems unable to either comprehend this, or teach it. However, for the personal, individual adventure of life it can be brought into consciousness with great, unbelievable benefits.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That view is yours. I see it differently with my 3rd eye... lol (I just had to say it )
  The spirit of God is not individual. God is. He has given those who trust him a measure, but humility is key... "Not because you have done something so special, Genaea, but because I AM; and I know you trust me." Biblically, the self must die everyday. Self gets stupid, and comes up with ideas... but only God's ideas work in his kingdom. Not ours. Ours are born of the ignorance of our father and mother flesh, A&E. We cannot do anything different unless we TRUST God. I know that some of us honestly have the opinion that we are GREAT... but that bubble is dangerous. Luckily, I have my pin...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "That view is yours." I have never said or implied that I am great, or that I am god above any other.
  
  You have given a good example of christian teaching unable (or unwilling) to understand. Thank you for that.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well you said that here and now=infinity. lol... fancy that...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you're right, 'tis funny isn't it.
  
  Infinity is often perceived as something we have to wait for in the future. In fact the word means without limits, not measurable.
  
  A moment in time is not definable. It has no definable boundaries, therefore it's infinite.
  
  The center of a circle, likewise. Infinitely small, not measurable. Infinite.
  
  A circle without a circumference - its radii being infinitly long.
  
  What about the center of my being? Not measurable. Infinite.
  
  You speak of The Spirit. Can you measure it? Has it got any definable properties? If not, then it's infinite.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The soul is immeasurable. Infinity is immeasurable. How then do we add an equals sign??? You tryna trick me???
  If here and now is the only concern; I guess, there is no concern...
  I personally, am getting ready to see the father... he is all things infinite. And I want to be ready when he comes back.
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sibtain bukhariposted 9 years ago
Cgenaea ,With due respect,the development of human ego is the wisdom of GOD,creation of man is the creation of ego,the intent of GOD is not to deprive the man from this ego,therefore,the man is required to identify,maintain, and develop this ego for recognizing his GOD and obeying HIM through his conscience,freedom is required for exercise of this conscience,this is light within us,all divine religions protect this'' light''and build ego of the man by realizing him freedom from gods of nature,gods of matter,and gods of political and economic and religious hegemony,this was the real message of all religions of the great Abraham but clergy deprived the humanity from this blessing and exercised his authority as authority of GOD.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is no God but one. Our plea to him is, "Not my will, but yours be done." God is not the author of confusion.
  Everyone man in himself, has a will. Calamity is the result of each man going his own way. Ask any legislator.
  Freedom from the whims of man, is what Jesus came to give. "Don't eat that! Don't walk like that! Don't go here! Don't go there! Don't forget our this/that! Don't wear that! Don't look like that!" It became a world of added rules and false doctrines and hypocritical ritual. Jesus came to straighten the crooked place. Self (and he reminded us) is clueless about "right." We must allow his mind to come first...before ego. Thy will; not my will...
  This is the mind of Abraham's god. Jesus showed us the way.
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sibtain bukhariposted 9 years ago
Cgenaea,From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
''ego eimi (Ancient Greek: ἐγώ εἰμί [èɡɔ̌ː èːmí]) "I am", "I exist", is the first person singular present tense of the verb "to be" in ancient Greek. The use of this phrase in some of the uses found in the Gospel of John is given theological significance by many Christians''.

''Modern Catholic scholarship also tends to see a theophany presented in the preponderance of the "I am" statements in the Gospels. Raymond Brown, sees a play on words in the story recounted in John 6:20 where the disciples in the boat are terrified when they see a man walking towards them on the water, and Jesus reassures them, ‘I AM; do not be afraid.’ Brown sees a twofold meaning: the obvious story line meaning of 'it is I' and a higher sacral meaning inherent in Jesus' walking calmly on the storm-tossed waves and then bringing them safely ashore.[11]
Other views[edit]''
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the "I" in that statement is exclusive to the person speaking. It is to convey the message of God. Unfortunately, many people want to jump in on that and become the "am" as well. But he did not say, WE are... God IS... (where's James??? This reminds me... )
  Ego gets in the way of recognizing exactly WHO is...
  We cannot all be AMs; there is only one. "Follow me..." is his direction.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Thank YOU, Cat333! ♡
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
jonnycomelately! I hereby decree: Since you have (for about three years now) listened to me, and YET refuse to say you believe ME; you are ORDERED to change your mind, this instant!!! You've left me no choice...
I just needed to see how that would sound...lol!!!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, it has been about 3 years. And in that time, has your mind been able to expand at all? Have you been able to look beyond a narrow set of beliefs and see an infinitely beautiful and wonderful world about you? Or have you remained in that narrowness, and designed the god you believe in to suit your own narrow view?
  
  The potential for your own life is infinite, if you will allow it, without fear of the "what if."
  
  A "God" that only fits into the interpretation of an ancient set of writings is way, way too small for me to even consider. That "God" which CAT333 worships is not the same one as yours. Because both of you have designed "Him" to suit the imaginations of your minds. The one factor which does seem to be common amongst you is that we (the human species) are inherently evil, sinful in the eyes of that fictitious god and that after death we will suffer all manner of dreadful repercussions as a result.
  
  Your choice to believe that if you wish.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My God is not "designed" by me or Cat333. We just took the time to meet him. Your choice not to, is your choice. No biggie for me. And I'm sure she isn't much 'vested either.
  Also, I have heard, "For every ac.tion; there's a REaction." Been right thus far... no sense in me believing that this will not continue after death with my "infinite" soul...
  You, believe as you wish...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Your god IS designed by you. ..... for your own satisfaction. Fiction that feeds your ego.
  
  You fail to be honest with yourself. Period.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You mean millions of people follow a deity that I created??? Where's my check? Uh, I am sure somebody owes me something. At the very least, ma bible sales royalties should be in the megabillions by now... they been selling it since long befo...wait...
  You sure I made this up?
  I see what you're doing... For the last time; I am NOT an infinite God, jonny...
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  bBereanposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  ...but are you an itty bitty part of one?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  One sec... gotta research.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, this is a sensitive subject for me. Humility, stemming from all my faults, forces me to stay low. To be elevated to such a position would throw me.
  At the moment i read your post, I heard Jesus say, "ye are gods." But he did not expound much.
  Though I am in the father, and he in me; I'm fully aware that without him, I am nothing. So HE makes up the immense difference. I myself am still nothing.
  Am I missing something?
  Oh!!! Looks like you said, ...part of one...
  Ok. Yes. The itty-bittyest.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Your perceptions and your learning are, however, very limited.
  
  It's funny how you claim to be following a father-figure that is omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful, loving, demanding, judgmental, trustworthy, unfathomable, untouchable, un-seeable, ..... all these attributes seem to attract you .... ah, but then He is of the Spirit you say, so outside of human understanding.
  
  And you are human, just like me.... so please excuse me while I laugh.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My humanness has a different aroma, Sir.
  
  From the outside, I guess it would look kind of crazy to follow one so powerful and beyond your scope of reason. But, I look in the mirror fine...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It certainly can look crazy when you are so obsessed with that god which you have built up in your own mind, just so that you can use "him" to justify your judgment of others.
  
  That mirror you use needs some cleaning. Also try shining a better light upon your face. Then you might see a genuine person, screaming out for forgiveness. You are the one who can forgive. Just say, "Ok!. I am worthy. I forgive Me."
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You are horrible at the "seeing" thing...
  I also know (spiritually) why there is SUCH resistance. Follow your advice.
  On your next mirror trip, say, "I forgive you."
  Then look up to heaven and say, "Forgive me..." and BOOM! Done... -*just as you are...*-
  The heart is most important to him. He looks down his all-seeing nose at NONE of his... he accepts WHOSEOEVER will...
  Through that relationship, i am made clean. As dirty as I get sometimes... (no excuse for sin; it happens, flesh is actually dirt )
  I believe him. Have your way, your way. Your will was given to you to do with as you please.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My sister cGenaea and I love, follow and serve One and the same Lord. He is revealed by the Spirit and the Word. We submit ourselves to him, rather than making attempts to have him "suit" us.
  
  We press on to know the Lord more and more (though this will not be perfect until we are with him in eternity). We agree on the essential truths and are unified in our message to you.
  
  What's with the focus on hell here?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The focus is always hell.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes Yes, CAT, you are two of a kind..... with minds so closed off to any other points of view, any other learning outside of your narrow biblical views.
  Hell or heaven is what you make of it,here in this world, before your demise.
  There is no conscious life after death for any living creature. Once it's finished it's finished.... no going back and correcting mistakes.
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  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Even if I did not hear the voice of my Lord speaking truth to me, why would I be expected to believe this - "Hell or heaven is what you make of it,here in this world, before your demise. There is no conscious life after death for any living creature."
  
  Since you are yet living and not dead, what experience have you based this on? By what authority do you speak of that which is beyond your knowledge? Are these simply ideas from your mind? Why should I esteem them?
  
  If we elevate and accept as truth all that comes from our own mind, we worship self. If we elevate and accept all that comes from another person's mind, we worship that person. If we elevate and accept that which comes from the mind and word and Spirit of the Lord, we worship the Lord.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It is a matter of what/who you choose to elevate and accept as truth. Brilliant!!!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Both of you try to paint me as a "sinner," based upon your beliefs. You have no other justification than that. Please forgive me for exiting any further conversation with you. I have much more interesting life to get on with.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That is a blatant, colorfully painted, self-focus.
  I have painted you nothing. I really don't understand that statement in light of the fact that I have been painted crazy; I believe differently than you.
  Sinner is a term used for my imagination. Does the inner dream that I fancied, bother you? If so, why? I haven't called you a sinner, though I remember my own confession.
  There is reason to believe you are not attributing this conviction to the right source. (Did you go to the mirror or something? )
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, Cgenaea, I withdraw that. I was confused when you seemed to align yourself and your opinions with those of fundamentalist preacher, CAT333. He is stuck firmly in a groove that excludes any rational understandings that I might have about religion and god and a Jesus. If you don't align yourself with him, but tend to think along your own lines, independently, then I have no problem continuing a discussion with you. We have chatted for a long time now, and there are contradictions which I detect now and then. These are what tend to confuse me.
  
  Sometimes you are rational, jovial, conversing on a warm, personal level with me. At other times you seem to drop into a regressive sort of mode, utterly against me and claiming your relationship with God in order to counter my ideas and feelings. Granted, these are my perceptions and they might not be what you had intended to portray. So, once again I apologise for any hurt that you might have felt.
  
  In order for us to return to the title of this Discussion, can I ask you just one question? Do you feel that your faith of today gives you a peace of mind that you did not have as a younger person growing up? (Sorry, one more question related to the first) Does your faith help you to feel worthwhile now as a person?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Do you feel that your faith of today gives you a peace of mind that you did not have as a younger person growing up? (Sorry, one more question related to the first) Does your faith help you to feel worthwhile now as a person?"
  
  Peace of mind is hard. It definitely is MUCH better than when I was younger though. I am growing. Faith is a huge part of that. It is true that there is rest... in him. Some call it maturity. God does too.
  Faith helps me to feel safe, in spite of all that this world provides. Worthwhile? No. Faith in God the way that Jesus portrayed is humble. Lowly. (Not puffed-up; sure of thyself alone) I screw up too often for that.
  I can never shine my breastplate (s) lol...
  The Lord keeps me reminded of his desire for me. Pride aint on the list.
  I hope that answers sufficiently..
  Cat333 is a man??? (we seemlessly agree, to me).
  There are no contradictions... ask for clarification if you don't (already) "know" the answer already.
  Oh!
  Im jovial and rational, always. Especially here. I think the regression is possibly my attempt at convincing you that I am not trying to force or cajole; not regress. I have a great time talking to you. We can do it all day. well... not do it-do it... ya know... lol
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Since you are yet living and not dead, what experience have you based this on? By what authority do you speak of that which is beyond your knowledge? Are these simply ideas from your mind? Why should I esteem them?
  
  CAT333, please now, you answer those questions yourself.
  
  What [b]experience[/i] do you base your beliefs upon? Please don't spin the old BS about conversion, or the voice of god. Experience. You have never been beyond the grave, so you have no experience there. You have no proof that the man you call Jesus returned from the grave. Everything you say is from what you believe. Not from experience.
  
  I make my pronouncement about a non-existence after death simply from good, sound, logical conclusions. Without a body, without a brain, without eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin, we are nothing. You know this. Stop kidding yourself. Start addressing some good sense in your life.
  
  Believe all you want about some invisible, untouchable, unfathomable being in the sky. Join with others that believe such silly things. You know you will never have any convert here. When you are dead you will not know a thing! You will never know that you were wrong all your life. So make haste..... enjoy life while you have it and stop worrying.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Flesh is dirt... that brings so many things to mind.
No child of God, glorifies sin. The inevitable quality of flesh...
I never want to hold a peace sign to sin. God does not.
Maybe we could start another conversation. But is there much to say on the subject??? No babes allowed? That could get so meaty.
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Holle Dolceposted 9 years ago
For those that believe in some form of divinity, that divinity does not exist merely in the mind. What form it takes depends on the believer. It may be a monotheistic creation (think: Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah). It may be pantheistic. It may be simply a belief that the divine exists in all things. Whatever the belief in divinity, the person does not believe it to be merely "in the mind." For whatever reason, they believe this divinity to be outside of themselves.

With that in mind, your question is flawed. You are asking a question about belief that believers simply cannot answer. It would be better to ask how one can believe in something without concrete proof that such thing exists.

For that, I will point to the internet around you. How do I know that you exist? Before you mock the question, consider that the profile you are posting under, the picture that matches it, and the personal information that you provided to HubPages may all be made up. You could be the creation of a bot program. You could be the creation of someone on the internet looking to have a good time.

In other words, you could be as made up as some claim the concept of divinity to be.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
Faith.
This is a powerful word and a powerful door. Knock and the door will be opened… How... I cannot tell you … but you'll see…you'll see… through your ability to perceive. Our perceiving abilities must be finely tuned.
How? Practice, focus, awareness.

TWISI
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Sed-meposted 9 years ago
"What does your belief depend upon?"

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.

When darkness seems to veil His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale
My anchor holds within the veil.

His oath His covenant and blood
Support me in the ‘whelming flood:
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.

On Christ the solid rock I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
On Christ the solid rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

When the last trumpet’s voice shall sound,
O may I then in him be found.
Clothed in his righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before his throne.

Words by Edward Mote (1797-1874) and others
Music by Francis Blight (PRS)
reply report
1. 60
  Cat333posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen! I love the words of the old hymns that were so Spirit led as this one!
  reply report
57
BibiLuzarragaposted 8 years ago
In my personal opinion, after thorough research of many faiths, I do not believe that "god" exists due to the fact that so many violent, disastrous events are happening on this planet; for if there were a "god, or a "creator", then "god" should be able to create peace, love and happiness for all--Bibi Luzarraga.
reply report
1. 76
  Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this
  I know.
  reply report
  57
  BibiLuzarragaposted 8 years agoin reply to this
  So do I.
  reply report

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