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self-designing universe

  1. janesix profile image60
    janesixposted 2 years ago

    The universe seems to be self-designing, in an intelligent manner. Maybe the solar system is so perfect in order for humans to live here, so the universe can experience it's awareness in the material world of time and space.

    We are just projections of that awareness.

    The solar system is like a teaching device, and our ancestors who built Stonehenge and the great pyramid new this.

    1. cjhunsinger profile image69
      cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Why do you speak so highly of our universe, when you have nothing to compare it to?
      It is like the abused child, who refuses to say he is abused. His life is all he knows. He thinks that is the way it is supposed to be.
      Altruism serves when reason is refused.
      Why are people so afraid to take responsibility for their own lives. Are we that weak and insecure, that only Marshal Matt Dillon can save us? The people of Stonehenge and the Pyramids knew nothing. They both sacrificed human lives to the gods. The Egyptians,  when embalming saved the internal organs for the after life,  but threw away the brain.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I have no idea how your response has anything to do with my topic.

        1. psycheskinner profile image79
          psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          At has to do with questioning your assertion that the universe is obviously designed (self or otherwise) because it allowed us to exist.

          Maybe the really well designed universe would have done a little better than us.  Or not had to create a trillion stars just to get one planet able to sustain life.

    2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
      Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      No it doesn't. It may have built itself, but there doesn't appear to be an intelligence behind it.



      Highly unlikely and wasteful.



      No



      No - they didn't and it isn't. We are learning all on our own it seems.

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      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Actually it's not perfect for humans. For most our hour history glaciers kept us from moving far from Africa. The history of human migration is directly related to this ice age, yes we are still in it.

      Our Sun came along very late in the universes history and is a particularly fast burning star that continues to heat up and will eventually put the earth out of the "sweet spot" and to close to a hot star to contain any life at all, all the while other stars with planets have been burning since near the begging of time and will continue in a constant manner long after the earth is engulfed by the Sun.

      But in the mean time, have a good time cause the sun can shine everyday. smile

      The people who built stone hedge and the great pyramids didn't even know how many planets there were in our solar system.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Sure, but they knew about the Earth and moon  in the squared circle. Stonehenge and the great pyramids are both representations of this.

    4. cjhunsinger profile image69
      cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      jane

      You make statements that have no basis in fact, but rather an ethereal representation of wishful thinking. The universe is matter and exhibits no signs of being self aware or a living organism. I cannot, however, say that your view is impossible, as I do not possess a universal intelligence to categorically say you are wrong. At the same time, your position, is simply speculative and wishful, as there is a god and through this god, there is purpose and design and  now I feel better.
      Your depiction of the solar system, a perfect order, leaves the impression that you have visited many other systems and have made a comparison study.
      Time exits because of E=MC2 or time is the expenditure of energy and an intelligent mind to perceive and measure, All this is relative to us and our current abilities, but not necessarily a true  measure of time, but it works for us, so far. All things  change (evolve) all the time. That is the only constant.
      All is a teaching device  and we are the teachers and we are the students. All that we perceive to exist, we have defined. We, through our capacity to reason, have built a foundation of knowledge,  possibly dating to 200,000 years. We continue to build that knowledge base, but to assert that the builders of Stonehenge were capable of some great knowledge, is simply without foundation.
      We are the only known animal with the capacity (reason) to ask a question and we have only us to provide an answer and many times we are wrong, but we keep asking.
      I would think, that the worst thing that we can do, as a reasoning life form, is to understate and under value that talent. One of the ways to do that is to ascribe to some spiritual or omnipotent power.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't mention God at all.

        But you are right, it is only speculation.

        1. cjhunsinger profile image69
          cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jane

          Your assertion that the universe is a self designing  and creative power alludes to the existence of an omnipotent intelligence,  god or god-like.

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The universe itself is conscious. We are part of that awareness.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              So you think it's like we are part of a big brain?

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Sure, kind of.

            2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
              Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Only inasmuch as we are conscious and part of the Universe. That does not make the Universe conscious, any more than I am able to function as a red blood cell. wink

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                More like sensory organs. The eyes and ears of the universe.

                1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                  Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Seems rather far fetched to me. 13.8 billion years of being blind and deaf. Not very intelligent if you ask me. big_smile

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Maybe 13.8 billion years is just a blink of the eye for the universe.

                    All we are is just bags of well-ordered colonies of bacteria with self awareness. How do we know those individual bacteria don't have some level of self-awareness? Just different levels of awareness, all the way up, and all the way down.

    5. Elisabeth Klein profile image61
      Elisabeth Kleinposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I have a serious question regarding your assertion.  I don't understand the reasoning behind the concept of an inanimate object (the universe) which has no consciousness--and I REALLY don't understand where it would have come FROM.  That is the biggest point I take issue with when anyone claims there is no God, or at the very least no "starter force" or "intelligence" behind the existence of our reality.  It is not logical, in my mind, to even suppose that something came into existence from nothing and for absolutely no reason.  Does that make sense?  Thanks!

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Actually the big bang theory doesn't say all this came from nothing. Only people who believe in a God say God made all this from nothing, like magic. For some reason they are not bothered the where God come from or why God suddenly after being around alone forever decided to make a universe for us and why he would place us in a rather crappy place in the universe? There are plenty of things that happen for no reason at all, in the universe and right here on earth. Why do we need other galaxies? Why do we have natural disasters? Why are there guinea worms? But do we solve all of these questions by inventing a God without explaining where the God comes from? Do we then make an exception for God needing to be created?

      2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
        Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You don't understand that inanimate objects are without consciousness?



        The FROM seems to have been a singularity.



        That is 2 entirely different statements.

        No one is suggesting that the Universe came from nothing although we are gaining a greater understanding of what nothing means.

        No reason? There needs to be a reason - a human understood reason? Please explain.

        1. Elisabeth Klein profile image61
          Elisabeth Kleinposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Actually that first bit is a typo--I meant how can an inanimate object HAVE a consciousness.  The matter that became the everything that is had to have come from somewhere.  Where?  Things do not just spontaneously appear. Are YOU comfortable with there being no reason?  If our existence has no reason, if there is no purpose, what's the point?  What's the point of anything--let alone being kind, caring about people or "doing the right thing."  If there is no reason, no purpose, why bother doing anything but that which suits us alone?

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Actually, they do.  There are lots of subatomic particles that do just that, and disappear as well.

          2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
            Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            It cannot.

            So things do not spontaneously appear. Can you prove that? But - if they don't - what made your "intelligence" appear? You "totally sold out to god" you?

          3. 0
            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Right, it had to come from somewhere. It's called the singularity.

            "Things do not just spontaneously appear" Yet you would have us believe your God has simply always been there, can you find anything else in the universe that has always been there? Further, things do just spontaneously appear.

            As for the rest of that, if you can't find a reason to be kind to others besides pleasing your God, I'm sorry.

    6. Titen-Sxull profile image93
      Titen-Sxullposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The solar system is perfect so that we can live here? Than why do bacteria outnumber us by a phenomenal amount? Our planet's surface is 75% under water and of that water only a tiny percentage of it is safe for us to drink. So most of the planet's surface is hostile to human life, not to mention asteroids within our own "perfect" solar system that cause mass extinctions and have the potential to wipe out human life. The Universe is indifferent to us specifically although it may favor life (we won't know until we finally put our pettiness and small-mindedness aside and get off this rock together).

      Don't get me wrong, the fundamental forces of nature have created some awesome complex and harmonious systems but I don't think it's all for humans. I'd much rather think that we are here to give the Universe meaning, than to think that the Universe is here to give us meaning. As Carl Sagan put it, we are a way that the Cosmos can know itself, we a part of nature not apart from it. In some ways this destroys the notion that we are somehow special, fed to us by countless superstitions and religions, it erases that anthropocentric assumption about the Universe and yet it also erases the religious notion that we are somehow wicked and incomplete.

      We are made of stardust and that makes us all at once insignificant and unique. It tells us that the Universe is indifferent but that the Universe is also somehow capable of creating life, that life itself is an expression of the forces of nature. The Earth, the Galaxy, the Cosmos, they will not coddle us, they will not heal us, they will not answer our prayers but they will not punish us, they will not curse us and they will not force their will upon us. Our destiny as a species is our own, we are free.

    7. 0
      SirDentposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Isn't that similar to what Stephen Hawking wrote in one of his books?

      1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
        Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        The Universe does seem to have built itself. No need for an Invisible Super Being. wink You should try reading his books.

  2. janesix profile image60
    janesixposted 2 years ago

    How is it wasteful? Maybe there are many solar systems like ours, built to perfection, with intelligent creatures not so much unlike we are.

    1. psycheskinner profile image79
      psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      We know for a fact there are millions that don't, and that's just the ones we can see from here.  So how is that efficient?

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't say it was efficient. Maybe the Universe doesn't care about that.

        Whatever it takes.

        1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
          Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          So now wasteful is OK? lol lol

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            For the universe maybe.

            1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
              Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              That is a lot of "maybe"s. wink

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah. I'm just making suggestions. I don't claim to know anything.

                1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                  Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Then why argue when people disagree with your "suggestions."?

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm not arguing. Just putting my ideas out there.

    2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
      Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      13.8 billion years just to produce us? Seems wasteful to me. wink

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        Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I don't know...we are finely crafted, after all. wink

    3. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      But the solar system is far from a perfect place for life.  You have it backwards; evolution has created as near a perfect animal for the environment as possible - not the other way around.

      As far as the solar system being perfect; it is a violent place, and one day another dinosaur killer will hit the earth.  Or perhaps a comet, or a wayward planet passing through this part of the galaxy.  Or a giant solar flare might scorch the earth, something just a little bigger than we see every now and then.  No, our solar system is not particularly friendly to life, and our planet has "died" several times in the past.  We just think it is because of our extreme short sightedness and memory.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        When a volcanic explosion causes an ice age that prevents humans from moving freely for hundreds of thousand of years it becomes obvious the universe wasn't designed for us.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Or wipes out a good chunk of humanity in one event and is the direct cause behind millions more dying from that ice age.

          No, the universe is not a friendly place for little humans.

      2. Cat333 profile image82
        Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You unwittingly speak God's truth in your post, Wilderness!

        But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

        Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail. Isaiah 51:6

        "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." Matthew 24:35

        1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
          Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Oh dear - seems the Lord contradicted itself again. Heaven is a short term gig and the righteous will have nowhere to hang with Jesus. When is this happening again? lol

          1. Cat333 profile image82
            Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            No contradiction, RA. The present heavens and earth must be destroyed before God creates the new heavens and earth. And "heavens" was a word used for skies and outer space, not just the "highest heavens" where the Lord dwells.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The "highest heavens" exist in sprit. All things originate from/in spirit. Unless this is accepted nothing can be understood. If spirit is invisible there is no proof, so they say… but what about the evidence of electricity which is invisible?  Electromagnetic radiation used in TV, Radio and Cell Phones cannot be seen. There is energy behind the manifestation of the universe and it is therefore self-designing and self-sustaining on a constant level... as we are.
              Obviously.

              1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                What nonsense. Electricity is not invisible. Radio waves can be measured. "Therefore" and "obviously'? Look them up. wink

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  So can God.  Meditate.

                  TWISI

                  1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                    Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    No it cannot. Think.

                  2. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    God can be measured? How?

              2. Cat333 profile image82
                Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I agree, Kathryn. God is Spirit, and the highest heavens, his dwelling place, are in the spiritual rather than the natural realm. For us to be with him and experience him in full, we will need the new spiritual bodies that he has promised us when we rise again, just as Jesus Christ rose and was given a new spiritual body.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Truth is Truth. Krishna taught Arjuna the same.
                  PMC

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                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I wonder if Cat is open to the idea of worshiping Krishna. As the story goes he had 16,100 wives.

                2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                  Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Ah - so Jesus' physical body did not actually rise then? More proof that the bible is flawed.

                  Still waiting for the scripture you promised me. wink

            2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
              Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Ah - sorry - you said "heaven" singular. wink

              But go ahead and quote me the scriptures that back up your claim and show me the scriptures that differentiate and explain what you just said. Otherwise it sort of looks like you are making this up as you go along, in order to make false claims about what the bible says. Isn't that against the rules? wink

              1. Cat333 profile image82
                Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Examples of these different uses of the term "heavens" (especially the plural use) can be found throughout the Scriptures (certainly isn't me just making it up as I go along). Here's an example of "heavens" being used to describe the skies and this area - Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." The verses regarding the passing away of heaven and earth (Matt 24:3, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33) can be and also are sometimes translated as "Earth and sky will pass away, but it is certain that my words will never pass away." The same idea is given us in 2 Peter 3:7, in which he does use the plural "heavens" - "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." Isaiah 51:6 (in my initial post) also uses the plural term "heavens", as does Ephesians 4:10, which says: "He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens."

                Isaiah 40:26 gives an example of the term "heavens" used to describe the solar system: "Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

                Isaiah 42:5 speaks of the plural "heavens" and seems to be referring to both the skies and the solar system - "This is what God the LORD says-- the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it."

                The dwelling place of God, often called the highest heavens or the "third heaven", exists in the spiritual realm. Examples where this heaven is mentioned in Scriptures are: 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell." In Revelation 4:1-3, John tells of his experience in the highest heavens, where he went in the spirit, and saw the throne of God with Jesus there - "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven..."

                1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                  Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  How odd that there is physical items in this spiritual realm.

                  Now we have three heavens huh? And we have something "higher than all the heavens."  Interesting.

                  So when it is singular it is heaven where the Invisible Super Being lives, but when it is heavens it is the sky, but not the other heavens. So heaven is going to be destroyed. No wonder you guys are so confused.

                  1. Cat333 profile image82
                    Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus' "spiritual" body had form and shape, could eat and touch, etc. It had its own different, better glory.

                    We have various uses of the term "heavens" - the skies, the solar system, and the place where God himself dwells / paradise (the "highest" heaven/heavens).

                    Singular or plural does not appear to be used to distinguish between the heavens, but rather the "highest" or "third" heaven is used to specify God's dwelling place.

                    The earth and skies / universe will be destroyed, and God will create new heavens and earth for us.

  3. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    There was clearly an intelligent design behind the creation of the universe.  There is clearly an intelligent design to all life in this universe.  Isn't it about time we recognized that God could use science and divinity to create everything in existence?

    1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
      Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Prove it.

    2. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      We don't even have to bring God into the picture. There is a lot of evidence of self-organization in the universe. Not magic needed.

  4. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    Because the universe adheres to laws.  The laws of physics.
    Cause and effect is one of these laws of the universe.  Nothing can come from nothing.  There must be a "cause."  This is where the argument for an intelligent design behind the universe applies.  God is the intelligent force which "caused" the universe to come into being and it is only through these universal laws that everything in existence continues.  God created these laws when he created the universe.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You don't know if there was a cause, you don't know what the cause was if there was a cause, so you have no way of determining what or who caused or didn't cause anything. When a star goes super nova there is a cause, but no intelligence behind the cause, just physics. There is a cause for rain and snow, but no intelligence behind the cause, just physics. We don't know if there was a cause that started the universe and if there was a cause it very well have been a natural cause like rain and snow and the death of a star. Simply stating God done it doesn't get us any closer to an answer, but perhaps it makes some feel better.

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      "Nothing can come from nothing."

      What did God use for His raw materials, then? 

      "Everything that exists is the result of a "cause."

      You're quite a ways behind in the world of physics; it is well understood now that there is NOT a cause for everything. 

      "However, an intelligent designer with the power to create could cause this to happen."

      Here you are correct, but there is a whole universe between "could" and "did".  To date there is no evidence to support that "did".

  5. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    Everything that exists is the result of a "cause."  Something had to bring it into being or cause it to happen.  Where did stars originally come from?  They had to be the direct result of a cause.  Simply stating that God did this does give us a direction or an intelligence behind the creation of all things.
    I believe you must start at the beginning and work your way forward in time.  One big bang does not necessarily cause a universe to come into being.  However, an intelligent designer with the power to create could cause this to happen.  I think it is a matter of expanding our minds enough to accept an entirely new concept of god altogether, and therefore an entirely new theory of how the universe came into being.

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      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Actually not everything in the universe has a cause. Sub-atomic particles pop in and out of existence all the time. Because we don't know what was before the universe (can there be anything before time) we don't know there was any intelligence that caused the universe or if there was even a cause. Once again there are many things that don't have intelligence behind their cause and there are many things that have no cause, so there is no point in assuming the universe has an intelligent cause. It's like finding a fallen tree and assuming big foot pushed it over.

    2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
      Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting. What caused the intelligent designer then?

      Expand your mind enough to answer this please. big_smile

  6. Elisabeth Klein profile image61
    Elisabeth Kleinposted 2 years ago

    Has ANYONE ever seen something spontaneously appear?  And my intelligence appearing--that's kind of the point.  Everything has an origin.  Flowers make seeds that make more flowers.  Where did the first flower come from?

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Elizabeth,  what you're doing right now is a logical fallacy called the argument from ignorance.   In other words,  you can't imagine how all of this could just happen,  therefore it must have been created by an intelligence or a god.   I'm sorry,  but logical fallacies do not work in discovering truth.

      If you don't understand how it could happen,  can u ask if you've ever considered taking a cosmology or physics or biology class to help you understand these complicated concepts?

      Sub atomic particles Do pop in and out of existence all the timewith no tall reason.   It's been observed repeatedly.   There is also this new study out of Cambridge : http://m.mic.com/articles/88441/cambrid … om-nothing

      Lastly,  let me try to explain something.   Even if the big bang ISN'T the right model,  and science had to stay from scratch - that does not mean that creation is true by default.   Creation had never been and can never be proven,  tested or demonstrated.   It's not a theory,  it's an assertion with no explanatory power or evidence to support it,  and it cannot just "win" by default.

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Yet, you claim your God has no origin. You are making a logical fallacy.

  7. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    Where did all of the genetic material for all life on this planet come from?  A happy accident?  Why is it so intricate, so delicate, so specific, and so full of pertinent information?  Billions of years of time did not and could not bring forth this genetic material.  Nothing comes from nothing.  There had to be an impetus and this is where God came in.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      That's still the argument from ignorance and begging the question while throwing in a blind assertion with no backup evidence.

      Here's the thing.  You can't expect people to have to be able to provide an alternative explanation when YOUR explanation hasn't been proven.  There is no demonstrable, observable, testable evidence to prove that life on earth - or anywhere else in any form - was created, and even if there was, you have to make a gigantic leap from it being created to it was created by a specific god - coincidentally the one that I believe in.

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Yet you claim your God comes from nothing. No one says the universe came from nothing except those who believe in God. Do we assume waves or ripples in water were brought by intelligence? We understand there are natural causes for these things, why should there not be a natural cause for the universe?

    3. Link10103 profile image79
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Why is being a happy accident such a problem? Why does the symmetry of everything in this world have to have a SPECIFIC reason to exist?

      I find people who absolutely HAVE to attribute the creation of the universe to any one specific deity, energy, whatever it is, to lack the will power to accept that everything could in fact have been a complete accident.

      Think of it this way, if intelligent design is true, then everything mankind has achieved over the millennia has had a guiding force behind it, we were not actually responsible for any of our achievements. Is that a problem? Not entirely, provided the intelligent creator had a visible (non deniable) role in everything. You could view it as a parent guiding their kid. But that isn't the case.

      On the other hand, if everything happened by accident...do you realize the significance in that? At that point, we came from nothing (definition of which varies) and have achieved amazing things, all on our own.

      Im all for either scenario in the end, but since it seems intelligent design, from a specific deity at least, does not seem likely, I will back the second scenario until proven otherwise.

  8. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    The very idea that DNA just sprang into existence defies common sense and logic!  I am attributing this creation of life to a higher power and you can call him or "it" whatever you like.  I believe it is intelligent energy.  All things in existence are made from this same energy and energy can't be destroyed but it can be transformed into something else.  By the way, I am not referring to a "biblical" god.  I am speaking of an entirely new concept of god.  A god who can combine science and divinity.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Any yet you have a problem with a God simply springing into existence?

  9. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    God, or this intelligent energy I am speaking of existed outside of time and space. He existed not in a place but a "state of being" without time.  He or It existed before the creation of the universe.  He contained the power, the energy, and all of the elements in the universe.  He consciously chose to create a universe using this energy which caused time to come into existence.  God then let the universe unfold and develop on its own.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      How do you prove any of that to be true?   Saying it doesn't mean anything,  and to say that your God is somehow outside of space and time while nothing else is is called special pleading.   It's another logical fallacy.

    2. Link10103 profile image79
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      And that is interesting and all...for a theory.

      Unless you can prove it as fact?

      1. JMcFarland profile image91
        JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        It's not a theory.   At best,  it's a hypothesis.   At worst is a baseless assertion.

        1. Link10103 profile image79
          Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          True. Guess I was feeling generous. Slightly out of character for me when people assume random stuffs, oddly enough

          1. JMcFarland profile image91
            JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Hey,  we all have our moments.

    3. Righteous Atheist profile image60
      Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      But - as things do not spontaneously come into being - where did it come from?

  10. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    Not one of you can prove anything you have put forth here in this forum.  Can you?  The truth is that the universe abides by one set of laws that all things in existence adhere to.  In other words, science is the basis for my theory concerning a Supreme Being. And if you are speculating that it was a "singularity" that caused the universe to begin then you are also assuming that this singularity exited in the vacuum of space where there was NO TIME.  This is my assertion.....That God existed outside the realm of time until he chose to create the universe.

    1. JMcFarland profile image91
      JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You're the one that's making one claim after another.   You were asked for proof.   Are you going to provide any?   Why don't you ask for proof of the singularity from the people who suggested it,  like you were asked for proof of your assertions that you seem either unwilling,  or more likely unable,  to provide?  If your only evidence for your claims are logical fallacies,  then there's no reason to consider or accept your claim.   I've made no positive claims on the beginning of the universe.   You,  however,  most certainly have, and you have the burden of proof - scientifically,  if you claim it to be a scientific theory - to back up your assertion with evidence or else it falls.

    2. Link10103 profile image79
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I guess it escaped your notice... But you cannot prove your claim either. Either that, or for some odd reason you have neglected to do so when you made your initial claim (claim, not hypothesis) as well as when you were asked for proof.

      I hope the gun you used to shoot yourself in the foot wasn't a shotgun.

  11. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    This is one of the reasons we exist....To question our existence, isn't it?  No one has all the answers to this question unless they are the creator or they have figured out the equation for how the universe began.  I am making this claim based on my personal experience and my understanding of a higher power. After all, we are all the sum total of our life experiences and what we believe to be true or untrue.  It is only through exchanging ideas that we can learn and grow, it is not through closing our minds to new information.

    1. Link10103 profile image79
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Personal experiences are poor bases to use for anything, especially when you are claiming something as fact. Why? Because personal experiences, most of the time, cannot be exactly reproduced. That, and every single person has a different personal experience, even when its the same event.

      And to cover the even more...intriguing flaw I find in this...what understanding of a higher power do you hold that scientists (religious and non religious) all over the world searching for the answer to our existence seem to be lacking? If you cannot prove that this higher power exists for you to have an understanding of, then your entire concept holds absolutely no merit whatsoever. You ended worse off than when you started.

      But I do agree with you in not closing our minds to new information. Im not sure how asserting that an intelligent creator clearly made everything with nothing to really back that up goes along with your closing sentence, but I do agree.

  12. 0
    Rad Manposted 2 years ago

    This thread is killing me. It's fun to watch people makes claims about things they really have no way of having any knowledge about, but still pretend that their claims are facts.

    This is what it sounds like.
    "No, the universe was made by a giant unicorn outside space-time who had some bad cabbage and farted us into existence. We can't see the invisible giant unicorn because he is like invisible electricity", wait it's dark in here… Let me go flick on a light and then I'll get back to my brightly lit 27" monitor. Okay that's better.

    No contradictions here.

  13. sherryb11 profile image61
    sherryb11posted 2 years ago

    Everyone is the sum total of "personal experiences."
    We are all a product of our childhood, our education, our political views, our religious beliefs, etc.  This is what molds us into who we are as human beings.  And so, I say that personal experience is the basis for all that we are.  We are all not going to collectively believe in anything.  We are all different and unique.  I am saying that in my search for the truths of the universe and god I have found answers to my questions. You clearly have a point of view based on your personal experience and your point of view is every bit as valid as the next person, isn't it? You can't write people off  just because they have differing opinions than you, especially when they are bringing an entirely new idea out into the open.

    1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
      Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      What does that have to do with your irrational, contradictory claims of majick?

      New idea? lol lol

    2. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I can only assume that means that you understand that what you say is irrational, but you are going to continue to be irrational because that was how you were raised? I was raised to be irrational as well, even told Santa exists, then I grew up.

    3. Link10103 profile image79
      Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Personal experiences are the last thing to use when claiming fact. I can say I saw a shadow in the woods. Does that give me the right to correctly assume that the shadow was Bigfoots cousin twice removed?

      And again, you say you have found the answers but have continued to neglect not only what those answers are but how you even got them to begin with.

      The only person being irrational and writing others off is you.

  14. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Heaven is perceived by going within.

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm going to have to agree with you on that one.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image84
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I also agree with you insisting that one should not believe in anything unless one has proof! big_smile

        1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
          Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          If you had proof you would show it. So - you are not being honest when you say you are sharing "possibilities," then? wink

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          The rising population is evidence of heaven being found within.

          The Holy Grail.
          http://youtu.be/b4aGYq4bz10

  15. 0
    Rad Manposted 2 years ago

    Cat, you have no spiritual ears. You and I have the ears on our heads. And while to you it may seem that I'm against all things God, that is your indoctrination talking.

    1. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      If all is physical and nothing spiritual to you, do you even acknowledge your own spirit within? Or do you understand only "parts" but not the whole (you can see trees, but no forest). Do you think it's true our spirits even have a very small weight that can be measured when we die (this I've read, but don't know for myself).

      So you do not consider yourself against God (since you do not know or acknowledge God, then let's say the "idea" of God)? Would you at least acknowledge that you're against the Word/Bible, against the Christian faith, against the "idea" of the Holy Spirit, against faith expressed through prayer, and so on?

      1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
        Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I think most non believers are simply "against" people like you sticking your religion at them. Perhaps this is simply beyond your understanding. Maybe if you opened your mind just a little you would be able to grasp such a simple idea? Do you even acknowledge your ability to reason? Or are you so blinded by the idea that you must believe without thinking it through. No - spirits do not have a small weight that can be measured when you die - this is another religionist lie to fool the gullible.

        Would you consider yourself against thinking and reason? Or would it be fair to say that you are against people thinking instead of believing without thought? Perhaps against the "idea," of reality? Perhaps you simply hate that other people can reason?

      2. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Define spirit? Do you mean spunk?
        A doctor did once claim that but it has never been repeated or verified.

        Holy cow, you still after all this time don't get it. I am not the devil and not evil, I simply don't believe any Gods exist. You have been indoctrinated to think that if anyone doesn't believe they must be evil and believe in God but be against him.

        1. Cat333 profile image82
          Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          The definition of spirit is "the nonphysical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character; the soul".

          I'd seen others saying the doctor's claims had recently been replicated, but didn't want to make any conclusions about it without further research.

          I didn't say anything about you being evil and wasn't attempting to imply such. I'm also not saying you deep down believe in God. But regardless, you have shown great opposition to the things of God. Some atheists who are interested in spiritual topics are interested because they're still searching and seeking, some don't believe anything conclusively yet but desire to, etc.. You seem motivated to discuss spiritual matters for the sole purpose of destroying the faith and leading people to what you've concluded is superior thinking and reasoning and morality.

          1. Link10103 profile image79
            Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Or, he seems motivated into getting people to actually think about the painfully obvious contradictions and immoralities of the christian faith, which I feel he has said a number of times over the course of a few months if not years.

            But insisting he wishes to destroy faith altogether is good to...

            1. Cat333 profile image82
              Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The Christian faith specifically / primarily.

              1. Link10103 profile image79
                Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                You mean the same Christian faith that essentially dominates the United States, to the point where it has an impact on laws, and probably has the most members world wide?

                Have you not noticed how the majority of religious questions/forums here on Hub Pages have to do with Christianity?

                1. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Here's some interesting facts:

                  About a third (32%) of the world's population identify as or are considered Christians (it is the largest religious group).

                  Christianity is the "most evenly spread religion, present in all regions of the world, while Hinduism is the least global with 94 percent of its population in one country, India".

                  The bible is not only the number one bestseller every year, but it vastly outsells the following top books combined.

                  According to the International Society for Human Rights, up to 80% of acts of persecution are directed at people of the Christian faith.


                  I understand Rad Man's desire to attack Christianity (and above any other religion), and I actually think there exist reasons for it beyond even his/your understanding.

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    "According to the International Society for Human Rights, up to 80% of acts of persecution are directed at people of the Christian faith."

                    Have you ever wondered why?  Perhaps because above all other religions Christianity insists it must ignore Matt. 7:12 and convert the world, even to the point of violating local laws by doing so?  Or is it simply because "persecution" to Christianity means non-Christians demand they keep it to themselves instead of forcing it on everyone around?

                    As far as "persecution" I'd have to say the Muslims are at the top of the pile, albeit by their own religion.

                  2. Link10103 profile image79
                    Link10103posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    So rather than take his reasoning, which he knows better than yourself, for what it is, you impose random ideas on him just to try and Make sense of his reasoning...which has already been explained to you.

                    What is your definition of persecution in regards to those 80% of Christians?

                  3. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Then you have not seen my participation in the Islamic forums. Go have a look, they aren't around much when whenever they try to convince us that Mohammad was a peaceful man I'm right there to set them straight.

                    I'm sorry to say you are wrong about my motivations, just as you are wrong about a great many things you claim to have divine knowledge of.

                    You need to understand a very important flaw in the doctor (that was weighing people upon their death) reasoning. If there is something immaterial (soul, spirit, whatever) about us it would have no mass because to have mass you need material.

                    I think you imply that I'm evil because you know saying so will get you banned. You think it but are afraid of saying it, but you imply it.

                    I enjoy these conversations because I have an interest in psychology and that interest keeps me wondering why someone would convince themselves that a God exists in order to make their life bearable. I'm sure I've told you that many times.

                    What are those stats for? They are meaningless much like when Muslims say Islam is the fastest growing religion. Sure it is, if you leave it's the death penalty and if you don't convert to it they tax you until you comply. But feel free to see my work on the Islamic forum when they try to tell me the earth is egg shaped or a mans sperm comes from his back. Good times.

  16. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 2 years ago

    Beautiful thesis, janesix. I have long had similar thoughts.

    For instance, evolution, in some cases seems an impossibility, but could it be programmed to think outside the box -- to stretch beyond its current limits?

    But going back to the initial creation of the universe. It's perfectly balanced. If protons were a tiny bit heavier or lighter, then atoms may never have existed. Molecules would never have formed into life.

    As a programmer and an artist, I've seen patterns across a wide variety of fields that seem to indicate an intelligence behind it all.

    The exact nature of that source may be unknowable. Can that source communicate with us? Who knows?

    But the closer we get to the nature of that source -- altruistic, giving and loving, the more we become like Him/Her/It -- a non-physical, immortal and spiritual source of creation.

 
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