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Dishonesty Within the Ranks of Christians

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    Emile Rposted 2 years ago

    I've been supportive of Christians for the most part. Probably because of the respect I hold for the ministry of Jesus and the goodness I believe is the heart of the universe.

    I've lost the ability to support you guys. The lies and innuendo, the games many play circumventing the truth, the total lack of regard most show toward their fellow man in order to prop up their egos. The gyrations around verses in order to circumvent the spirit of the intent.

    I'm done finding reason to attempt to find reason in your arguments. You've allowed the fringe to define you to those outside the faith too long for me to continue to give the religion the benefit of the doubt.

    It's really very sad that these have become the face of Christianity.

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, dogmas must be up-rooted.
      - but, they don't want any uprooting. Keep those weeds in place. Hide the beautiful flowers growing right beneath them.

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      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      On the surface it seems like a good idea, but when you dig in you find a mountain of hypocrisy, delusions and lies.

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        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Yes. The teachings of Jesus are a good idea. It's simply the problem with everyone agreeing to that; but not wanting to follow them.

        1. bBerean profile image60
          bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Just to clarify:
          *As Emile interprets them.

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            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            We all have to interpret them don't we. I mean you don't think to many people will gouge out our eyes because we notice pretty women do you? I don't see very many Christians offering the other cheek when slapped in the face.

          2. JMcFarland profile image91
            JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            As opposed to how you interpret them? Or as a Catholic or a Lutheran or a Calvanist or a unitarian interprets them?

            1. bBerean profile image60
              bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Correct.  Since none of those groups would agree with her statement that they are going against Jesus teachings, it required clarification.

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I disagree.   I've seen lots of Christians speak out against actions both past and present that have been carried out in the name of Jesus or the church,  Insisting that those actions go against his teachings and condemning them as not indicative of how Christians should behave.   If you haven't seen it,  you aren't paying attention.

                Whose interpretation should we follow,  and why?   Why would an all knowing,  all powerful good be so inept at communication that his written word has to be translated and interpreted in the first place?   Surely he could fax down copies from heaven that are clear and easily understood in every language on earth so that there are not 40,000 denominations and schisms in the first place.

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Not necessary, that is what the Holy Spirit is for.  You don't believe in it, so nothing to talk about.  You will point out people who do rely on spirituality have different interpretations too, which is what deceiving spirits are all about.  Next you'll want to know how I know mine is correct, but it is silly to discuss how to apply spiritual discernment with someone who considers the premise false.

                  1. William Avitt profile image90
                    William Avittposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    This right here is the problem with fundamentalist Christians.  "You aren't a believer, so why should I try to explain anything to you?"  Well, because that's how we have a dialogue.  Apparently it doesn't bother you that people on this thread are basically reaching out saying "Please, make me believe all Christians aren't like this."  I'm seeing a lot of people here that really, really want to be tolerant of something they don't fully understand, and you're making it difficult for them.  It saddens my heart, honestly. 

                    To everyone else here, I am a believer.  I was saved when I was 16 and I am now 34.  I love God and I am always willing to speak about him with someone else.  That said, I fight a crusade against fundamentalist Christians almost ever day.  Those who are judgmental and just downright mean to people who don't fit into their small, closed-minded little box of what Christians should be and it is just really sad.  Basically what I am trying to say is, chin up.  Judge individual believers by their actions and don't judge all of us by those who seem to have never gotten the "Love your neighbor as yourself" memo.  Cheers!

                2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Come on, JMc, Skype was set up originally so we could commune with the Lord, via Silicon Valley.  But then genetal modification got in the way and it was regarded as sin.... so broken communication instead.
                  Must get a new mother board.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I thought it was time for a replacement chip myself

            2. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Good morning JM, how are you? It's nice to see you again. My tooth hurts, I'm starting a new job Mon. I am finding Grey's Anatomy incredibly tedious after season 4. What's the weather like where you are? smile

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Sunny and warm above 80 degrees.   Sorry about your tooth.   Been there.   Done that.

                1. Sed-me profile image82
                  Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Been where? Tooth or Grey's Anatomy?

                  Do you find life to be overwhelming at times? If I were to focus on all my problems right now, I think I might be a bit overwhelmed. How do you deal with life when you're knee deep in it?

                  (It's raining here right now... lol... seems somehow appropriate.)

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                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Beth, you seem to be in a bad place. Keep doing the things that need to be done, keep your head on those tasks and stay in the present, not the past or the future.

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                    Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Good luck with the tooth from me too. smile I'm no stranger to the dental chair.

                    About life being overwhelming...everyone I know and love, family and friends, is majorly struggling. We are holding on to each other for dear life. Grab on. smile

                  3. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Tooth and Greys anatomy.   Both.   I feel your pain.

                    It's easy to get overwhelmed being the most senior person in your position,  working full time,  going to school full time and making time for your hobbies,  your friends and your family.   I just have to focus on one day (sometimes one moment) at a time and go from there.

              2. LoisRyan13903 profile image72
                LoisRyan13903posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                "My tooth hurts, "

                Try a litlle warm water and salt and rinse near the tooth.  Works for me

            3. mishpat profile image59
              mishpatposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              JMc, on the surface one has to agree.  But when we look beneath the label, they are just men (and women).  Some leaders with an agenda.  Some followers with, well not much going for them.  On either side of the Cross, man has the ability to reason.  Some do and some don't.

              1. Righteous Atheist profile image59
                Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Got to admit it is funny to hear the words "reason" and "cross" in the same sentence. lol lol

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            Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Love God., Love your neighbor as yourself. How can one misinterpret that?

            1. bBerean profile image60
              bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              By not understanding Who said it, why He came, or what He did.  Happens much more often than not.

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                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                How many people do you know that don't know and understand that story? You don't have to believe it to understand it.

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Emile's protest has traditionally been against any holding that belief, even when it's not being actively preached.

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                    Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I will admit that anyone who holds that belief does not, in my opinion, know any deity. So, it stands to reason that I would find claims of miraculous interventions for people holding that belief highly suspect. Granted, miraculous interventions are suspicious anyway. But, I don't doubt there are truly good people in the world and I don't doubt that there are people who deserve miraculous interventions. I don't consider evangelicals of falling into the first category. And, most of their claims don't represent someone who appears to be truly in need.

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                Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Seriously? Maybe it should read, love your neighbor as yourself after you've weighed measured and ensured you, personally, don't find them lacking. That would clarify. Yes?

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Nope, not at all.  If those words came from God, coming to die for your sins, that you might be saved from hell, loving your neighbor would include conveying that.  Not as simple as coming from your idea of Jesus.   Much more to it than that, but at least it illustrates the point.  For the believer to withhold that little tidbit is neither loving nor honest.

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                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Unfortunately you can't be sure you are right. Therefore your preaching may put someone one the wrong path.

                    I don't think it's difficult to tell if a particular version of God is as described by looking at the words in the Holy book. Does the description make sense. The question is does the description of the God of the bible make sense?

                    Some of those OT laws make no sense other than to make a group of men powerful.

                    Does it make sense that the god that these Hebrews were waiting for to came back and fulfill the prophesies came back and they didn't believe him?

                2. Chris Neal profile image83
                  Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  No, that would distort. It's exactly that kind of thinking that Jesus was preaching against.

                  Still, despite the fact that, in a way, this is saying to those who want to beat the Christians down "Okay, you win," right now I can't think of a better reason or time to abandon the forums. With few exceptions they are usually ya-ya sessions (at least the religious ones,) and if one of the people who was at least trying to be open and fair-minded has decided that the broad brush is the way to go, then really, what more is there to say?

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                    Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm so glad you agree on the loving your neighbor thing. And, I hope you aren't serious about that being a good reason to throw the towel in. You do a pretty good job of defending your beliefs. I think it serves a purpose. I don't agree with them, as you know, but you seem articulate enough to help people understand what they are and why you have them. Which is rare here.

                  2. Cat333 profile image82
                    Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Welcome back, Chris. I think your presence was missed and will be missed if you decide to move on from the forums. But the Spirit leads and we follow... The twisting of words is prevalent here, and I think several of us are beginning to see how futile our efforts are in this type of environment.

            2. jlpark profile image90
              jlparkposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Easy to misinterpret that!

              Don't you know it's "Love thy neighbour as yourself.....unless of course you don't agree with them, their lifestyle, the way they raise their children, their religion or lack of, their skin colour,....."

              At least that's how I've seen it interpreted...

              EDIT....to clarify - interpreted by some.  I do not group all Christians into one group....that would be foolish...(and I wonder if some Christians (not here) could do with that reminder??? )

    3. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      God felt the same way. He'd had enough of man's sin.
      (Bear with me for one moment, please.)
      He told Abraham He was going to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
      Abraham said "Lord if there are 50 good men... will you spare the cities?"
      As Abraham begins thinking of the evil in this town... and the chances of finding that many good men... he begins to humbly lower the number.
      "What about 10 men, Lord?" He finally says.
      The Lord agrees. If God can find 10 good men, He will spare the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

      God sends two angels to search the cities for 10 good men. Turns out the whole town tries to rape the angels. God brings down fire and brimstone... there were not 10 good men to be found. There were two men and two young women saved from the wrath of God. That's it. Even Abraham's wife... wiped out b/c she refused to obey.

      Emile, you are special to me. I believe it is b/c God has put you on my heart. But with all due respect, you cannot judge an entire city unless you have spent time with each and everyone that dwells within that city. Were you God, you could judge righteously if every man were good or bad. You could see past the misunderstanding and assumption in our daily discussions, to the heart... but until you have that ability... keep your heart and your mind opened or you may write off some very special relationships that might just be a major joy in your life. I care very much for you and hope you will not write me off so quickly.

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        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I doubt there is a person alive who is not aware of the Sodom and Gomorrah story. But, what in the OP gives you the impression that I am judging people with fire and brimstone? Who is claiming to be God? I'm judging the religion and what is allowed to pass for 'Christian' behavior. Obviously these behaviors are acceptable to those within the faith. I see no one within the faith challenging them. I realize that Christians are supposed to attempt to play nicely with Christians however, if you follow that and ignore unsociable behavior patterns which are passed off as God's will then one can only assume that any who do not challenge them agree with them.

        I find many of these behavior patterns rather abhorrent so I can only find the faith so also. I could not imagine having a 'special relationship' with the hypocrisy involved in this religion.

        Please note that this is not meant to be a judgment of you. Each person has to do what they believe to be right. I am not advocating anyone change their behavior patterns. I am simply venting about the fact that I am not happy about the conclusions I have been forced to assume.

        1. Sed-me profile image82
          Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          My point was that even God came to the point where He had had enough. The story of Noah comes to mind as well, but I chose the Abraham story to point out how few men Abe could actually find... he couldn't even meet the quota.

          I need to have a tooth pulled. Root canal failed... twice. Getting pretty edgy atm. Would hate to have you judge the whole of  Believerdom based on my incredibly irritable mood. Will write back later.
          Keep in mind... this is an internet forum, with a few vocal believers that maybe you don't like. Hardly worth deciding over the whole of beef from eating a Big Mac.

          Argh! Pain. Going. smile

          1. bBerean profile image60
            bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Hope all goes well with the tooth. 

            Before worrying too much about the OP, consider that sticking with the gospel is what offends her.  If you believe people need Jesus to save them from hell you are worse than a Nazi prison guard manning the ovens at Auschwitz, in her book.  How much compromise is okay?

            1. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I find myself utterly bewildered. I feel like I am trying to connect dots, only to find out that the dots are made of smoke. No one is making sense to me. I don't understand Emile's reaction. She seems so unlike herself... I don't understand Cat, or CG or anyone... I understand RA... He says "... and that's why your religion causes so many conflicts." and all of a sudden I am in Kansas again. But nothing else is making sense to me. It all seems like utter nonsense and I am missing something. Seems to me like the whole thing should have been dropped a thousand words ago and now... there are body parts every where. Why don't we all just stop feeding the monster and say "Good morning, how are you?" There are a lot more important things to talk about.

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                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Perhaps it's a sign you are have been giving these things thought and not simply agreeing because some people are fellow Christians. Just something to keep in mind, not everyone here is okay or stable. I think you are as you've been consistent, but some of the others… are not worth my time. bBerean is okay as well, just mostly wrong.  wink

                1. bBerean profile image60
                  bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks, I think.  Yay for consistency and conviction at least?  I'll take that.  wink

              2. bBerean profile image60
                bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                She is being consistent, except with you.  Now she is pulling back in line there too.  The conversation about hell and Auschwitz had to be over a year ago, perhaps much longer.

                1. Sed-me profile image82
                  Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Like I said, Im utterly confused.
                  In all truth, I believe Cat should have let this go pages ago and not b/c she wasn't in the right, but b/c she is called to defend her faith, not herself. I am disappointed that CG and Sir Dent fanned the flames that kept a ridiculous argument going... but what confuses me most right now is that I would be surprised at you.

                  We are SUPPOSED to disagree with them on these matters. We do not share the same faith. We do not share our beliefs or the same spirit... when it comes to doctrine and faith, we have NOTHING in common. So why are we picking up stones?



                  It's your kindness that leads us to repentance oh Lord. Knowing that you love us, no matter what we do... makes us want to love you too....



                  Remember that song/verse? I am 100% on board with speaking the truth, but what happened to loving them? I don't know... I don't know what's going on. Maybe I missed something. Sorry to all involved, believer and non believer alike. I have to go to a parent/teacher conf. Take care, all of you!

                  1. bBerean profile image60
                    bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this



                    Hmmm.  Now I'm confused.  "That I would be surprised at you"?  I didn't partake in the unusual conversation you reference above.  I skimmed it as it transpired.  I have been consistent from day one, (even Rad sees it), so not sure how I would surprise you. 



                    If this is also directed at me I really don't get where your coming from.  Any comments I made regarding the OP are spot on and references made are documentable.  It's not throwing stones to clarify, so I am not sure what you are taking issue with.  Please specify the errors you perceive that I have made so we can discuss them.  I will be ready with apologies in hand for anyone to whom they are due, should the protest prove valid.  I look forward to hearing from you after the tooth is resolved.  Hope all goes well.  (Want to put a winky here but know you've seen alot of them lately).

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                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm reluctant to bring this up again as I don't want to highjack this thread, but she brought erroneous information to the table while attempting to convince us that she is a prophet, but only that she forgot to tell us the event would happen before she said it would. The erroneous information was disturbing to say the least. I don't particularly like being told I should get sexual harassment help from someone who give the entire world her bra size for no good reason other than to tell us how much attention she gets.

                    Hockey has started up again, good game the other day between the leafs and tabs. Tonight a great game, the leafs and pens. Ya baby.

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                    SirDentposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks for the shout out!!!!  Now for something completely different.

                    Mildred, the church gossip and self-appointed arbiter of the church's morals, kept sticking her nose in the other members' private lives. Church members were unappreciative of her activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence.
                           
                          She made a mistake, however, when she accused George, a new member, of being an alcoholic after she saw his pickup truck parked in front of the town's only bar one afternoon.
                           
                          She commented to George and others that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing.
                           
                          George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just walked away. He didn't explain, defend, or deny; he said nothing.
                           
                          Later that evening, George quietly parked his pickup in front of Mildred's house... and left it there all night!

                  4. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    sad I HATE the dentist...
                    I too hate that you consider my and Sir Dent to be fanning flames on that silly issue.
                    You missed the bulk of conversation so I do understand. However, the spirit of the Lord is also furious at foolery. And he calls a lie where he sees it.
                    I feel that the thoughts expressed by Cat333 was unfairly represented when she was interpreted as only bragging about her bra size. It was MEAN. And it was ridiculously taunting. She was accused of being a drama queen who shouldn't have been hired in the first place, at her job if Emile were the judge.
                    It was all so malicious that the spirit within me was quickened to advocate.
                    Cat told of victory over her accusers and gave the glory to God. Emile and Rad pounced hard and spoke untruth after untruth about her intent as well as her actions.
                    I would do the same for you, as well as Emile. smile
                    Right is right. And wrong is simply wrong.
                    The wrong was called out and confronted. Jesus did that well.
                    Unfortunately, we cannot have peace in this valley. Yea and nay will forever disagree. Jesus didn't talk long to unbelievers. But for me to avoid it, I'd have to close my account. It is what it is. I cannot complain. But stand FIRMLY, I will.
                    Wrong will not be petted by my hand.

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                Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Goodness. I ran my mouth off before I thought better of it. I feel like I must really like the taste of my shoes.

                Good morning. smile

                1. Sed-me profile image82
                  Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Good morning!

                  And good bye. smile

              4. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I agree Beth.   Lots to get on with in this world.   And I should learn to avoid the temptation of sitting down at the computer so often.
                I will be watching with my smart phone for the next couple of days.   Take care of yourself.

            2. JMcFarland profile image91
              JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Reducto ad Hitlerum?  Is that what your arguments have been reduced to?   Godwin's law?   That's absurd.

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              Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              bBerean, to be fair, it is not sticking to the gospel that Emile finds offensive. It is the willingness of some Christians to stand by each other no matter how disagreeable the other's behavior might be - just because they are both Christians. To, in some cases, twist, manipulate, and lie about the words of others because they happen to disagree with them. I love my friends and family desperately, but I won't lie for them and I'll call them out if they lie to others. It is not only believers here who twist and manipulate but there is an obvious willingness to back each other when called on it that can be frustrating.

              For the most part, I've stopped responding to many of the forum topics because they all turn into that. I like so many of the people here, but the combinations we create aren't always pleasant or conducive to real discussion. I've chosen more often than not to pray and remain silent, but your words here are an unfair characterization of Emile's feelings on this subject.

              1. Sed-me profile image82
                Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I have never stood by a Christian when I thought they were wrong. I have spoken out clearly if I thought they were in the wrong. As I said last night, I had not read the exchange, but only come in on the end of it and it seemed a ridiculous conversation.

                I will however not comment on every little thing, no matter which side the person is on (believer or non believer) but that is an attempt at peace. When someone is clearly behaving in a way they shouldn't, i say something.

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                  Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I think all of us on every side of every coin comment before we should sometimes. That may be the biggest cause of our issues. hmm

              2. bBerean profile image60
                bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Good to hear from you Mo.  Trust me, it really is that simple.  Please don't make me go through all that backlog to find the thread where she made it that clear.

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                  Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  While I appreciate your willingness to do that, I'm only concerned about today. Thanks, though smile

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                  Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Trust me. It isn't that simple. Yes, I do find the doctrine of hell abhorrent. Possibly, because it doesn't fall under the umbrella of love your neighbor as yourself.

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                Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks Motown. That about sums it up. And, you are right that it isn't only professed Christians behave in this manner. It's human nature, to some extent. Path of least personal resistance. But, I have always thought a follower of Jesus was meant to be aspired to personally.  Not a team effort to see how low one can get away with going.

            4. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Zero. smile Jesus did not/does not compromise. The truth is plain to those who seek it... "Follow me..."
              "Throw the first rock, you who are sinless. "
              Do unto others as youd have them do to you."
              "Lean not to your own understanding. "
              "There is one God, I am his son, no way to him, but through me."
              "Believe in me; have faith in me."
              When people say that they respect the teachings of Jesus; do they really???
              My guess is... well, nevermind...

              1. Sed-me profile image82
                Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I cannot tell you how much I agree that not compromising the truth is of the GREATEST importance... but there is sharing the truth, and there is believing that our words are without flaw. I have shared with you before that I believe humility is vital.These forums cannot be a constant barrage of "I am right, and you are wrong." We share our faith b/c we love them. I am super irritated with one non believer right now, so I avoid speaking to him lest I say things that speak hate instead of love. We cannot wrestle flesh against flesh. When we come to that point... we must take our leave. We cannot witness from the point of pride. I know this b/c I am guilty of every failing.

                1. Cgenaea profile image59
                  Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Right is right. The bible is ALWAYS right and that is always my angle.
                  However, lies and malicious badgering and bestowing assumed mindset is wrong and if I can, I will speak on it.
                  No hate, and definitely no selfish pride. We boast in the Lord. I know his voice. That irritates many. But that's not my business.

            5. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I have the greatest respect for you, you know that. My feeling was that you were joining the bandwagon of "us against them". I feel I have spoken way too much... please forgive me all, but again, I believe this should be allowed to be dropped.

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            Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I hope you feel better.

            It isn't so much that I don't like some people. It's the absurd beliefs unchallenged by other believers. I can only assume unchallenged means tentative agreement.

            1. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I don't know what beliefs have gone unchallenged... the only thing Im aware of is that everyone's talking about a situation that happened to Cat. I don't like what some of the men said to her. Their comments seemed totally inappropriate. One person telling her to find a different job b/c of her shape.' I think all women here should take offense to that.

              I don't remember what your beef with her was, other than it wasn't a topic for this forum, which I agree with, but then I don't know how the topic came about... but here's the thing... I don't want to keep the topic going. It seemed like it was just a big, ridiculous argument that didn't have to do with the price of peanuts. (I don't think that's a saying.) It seems like we all will fight about ANYTHING. We all spend a lot of time together. Can we not be kind, as humans at all?

              Some ppl's comments are really icky... Oy, let the poor horse die already. (This is not to you, but to everyone.)

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                Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Well, she brought it on herself. I see now she's commented on how fat her sister is, so her sister's boobs don't get as much attention as her own. That mentality finds trouble in an office environment. Fair? I suppose it depends on your perspective. I have no sympathy for women who seek attention and then complain when they find it.

                It reminds me of a woman i once worked with. She constantly sought validation. She got mad at me for not accepting drinks from men in a bar. When she was met with raised eyebrows by the men in the office because of her complaints she changed her tack. The next time the office went out she was waiting for a sub who was picking up a check. She called him. Told him to meet her at the bar, told him what she always drank and then acted flabberghasted when he showed up and bought her a drink. She used my line, which had made her so mad when I explained to her I was married and it was inappropriate. She got mad at me,.again, because I just started laughing and explained to her any woman who told a man to meet her at a bar.and told him what she drank would probably be insulted if she didn't get a free drink. You can't set the stage, write the script, and then be surprised when the play starts.

                1. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Let me see if I've got this right from your various posts on the matter. According to you, Emile, women only receive negative harassing attention when they WANT it. They should be "typed" and the women deemed to fit this certain stereotype should not be hired in the first place. If they try to counter the "blaming the victim" mentality expressed in assumptions / accusations of provocative dress, or explain why the harassment would occur without provocative dress, and they dare to mention the taboo subject of chest size, then this means they bring onto themselves and deserve any manner of inappropriate comments. If they either label or report discrimination and sexual harassment as such then they are "whining". Yet you don't consider yourself to condone sexual harassment and wouldn't benefit from sexual harassment training.

                  Why exactly are you carrying the conversation from the other thread into this one?

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    You're right. I've made my point. Said my piece. Ensured you had every opportunity to be aware of my disdain. We're done.

        2. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Christian like other religions somehow get what they want. However we don't need to just pick on them. Sam Harris made a valid point a few days back. Muslims claim groups like ISIS are not Islamic, but if a few people get together and burn a Quran, the Muslim world will be outraged, there would be death threats and riots in the streets, but yet they sit back and quietly watch what ISIS is doing. Christians decide to ignore one of the very first commandments by wearing crosses around their neck and praying to pictures and symbols of Jesus and in the case of the Catholics praying to symbol and pictures and statues of those they decide are saints and ignore one of the others by going to work on Sundays. Yet in amongst those laws that they were told to follow, but don't they pick a few out and decide to hurt others with them.

          It's the strangest thing.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Well, I don't interact with many Muslims but I see your point and agree.

    4. Onusonus profile image86
      Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Oh, is it time to single out Christians again and ignore every other group in the world that has hypocrites in their ranks?

      As usual the skeptics focus solely on the "don't judge" part of the Bible and pluck out the parts about God not being okay with the way you live your life.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Unlike the people who think they'll rule a planet as reward for the hypocrisy.

        I singled out Christians because they were the ones currently on site claiming God loves them more. Also, I happen to respect the gospels. I realize one has to toe some childish belief structure to avoid being targeted. Which makes me question whether the religion can continue to be considered of value with two thousand years, thirty thousand sects (and counting) of people using it to feed their own egos.

        1. Onusonus profile image86
          Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Right all those bad Christians out there who contribute to the bulk of charitable organizations across the globe. Give it up, you can't vilify a group that more effectively applies decent, moral values to the real world.
          The rising, and most pathetic trend of the agnostic is to enjoy some baseless, meaningless inner faith, while real Christians are actually doing something to make the world a better place.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The sad thing about this is you probably would agree with me on some of the philosophies I call 'fringe'. You probably would be as offended by behavior patterns I am questioning. You, on the other hand chose to come in, guns loaded, assuming someone was attacking you. That was not my intent, nor do I see any reason to get into a protracted hissy fight defending myself against your erroneous conclusions. Been there, done that.

            1. Onusonus profile image86
              Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I am offended that you would equate me with loaded guns as though my religion fosters some stereotype of violent, gun toting, bible thumpers.

              Actually very few things offend me. That sentiment is a long held tradition that has been chartered and monopolized for generations by cry baby liberals.

              The sad thing is seeing yet another thread that is set up purely to polarize and demonize Jesus's fan club. Were the word Christian to be replaced by "Jew" or "Muslim" you would be labeled a racist, bad person. Which is why you choose to go down the politically acceptable path of Christian bashing.

          2. Quilligrapher profile image91
            Quilligrapherposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Hey there, Onus.

            Research reported in Connected to Give: Faith Communities dispels the myths and assumptions behind the false notion that Christians “contribute to the bulk of charitable organizations.” The study explores where religious donors make charitable contributions and provides comprehensive information about existing behaviors and motivations among both religious and non-religious. {1}

            It also answers the question, “Do Christians give more generously than non-religious?” Actually, after deducting the amounts donated to congregations and religious organizations, they do not appear to be more generous at all. The data determined that Christians who say they give because of their religion, are, in reality, giving to their religion as well. About 40% of all donations go to churches and religious institutions established primarily for religious activity or spiritual development.

            In addition, another third of their charity goes to nonprofits with religious identities. Many non-dogmatic groups feed the hungry, house the poor and fight for the under-privileged. However, Christians mostly ignore them in favor of faith-based groups that do charitable work while also proselytizing. A large portion of the donated money goes toward spreading religious beliefs, not actually helping other people. {2}

            In contrast, 56% of all non-religious, only slightly less than the ratio of religious donors, also contribute to charities but their philanthropy goes only to help those in need. {3}

            It turns out, Onus, Christians are equally as generous as most other religious believers like Muslims, Hindus, and Jews but they give more than non-Christians do only when you include their donations to religious congregations and organizations.
            http://s2.hubimg.com/u/6919429.jpg
            {1} http://connectedtogive.org/
            {2} http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat … h-to-rest/
            {3} http://religiondispatches.org/new-study … -religion/

            1. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Time
              The local Church – embedded in communities, intimately familiar with the challenges and resources at hand, and able to mobilize a wide network of volunteers – is uniquely equipped to respond quickly in the aftermath of disaster.

              Unlike much outside assistance, the Church remains decades after a disaster.  In the ensuing years of recovery and rehabilitation, the Church responds holistically, facilitating lasting change.

              Looking back on Hurricane Katrina at its five-year anniversary and witnessing the ongoing restoration of Haiti’s Port-au-Prince, the significance of the local Church in  disaster response is evident.
              http://worldrelief.org/page.aspx?pid=2635

              While FEMA and the Bureau of Indian Affairs are providing grants to help those who suffered losses in the fires, disaster assistance was also being provided by other groups, including Mennonite Disaster Service, Church World Service, Lutheran Social Services, Tzu Chi Foundation and the Red Cross, said Miriam Gelo, a FEMA voluntary agency liaison who is working with the tribes.

              Wade Gayler, acting incident commander with Southern Baptist Disaster Relief, said volunteers from his organization have been helping clean up debris – and helping residents recover valuables - from homes that were burned on the reservations.
              http://www.disasternews.net/news/articl … cleid=3542

              Money
              "Q. We often hear that religious people give more to charity than secularists. Is this true?
              A. In the year 2000, “religious” people (the 33 percent of the population who attend their houses of worship at least once per week) were 25 percentage points more likely to give charitably than “secularists” (the 27 percent who attend less than a few times per year, or have no religion). They were also 23 percentage points more likely to volunteer. When considering the average dollar amounts of money donated and time volunteered, the gap between the groups increases even further: religious people gave nearly four times more dollars per year, on average, than secularists ($2,210 versus $642). They also volunteered more than twice as often (12 times per year, versus 5.8 times).

              Very little of this gap is due to personal differences between religious and secular people with respect to income, age, family, or anything else. For instance, imagine two people who are identical in income, education, age, race, and marital status. The one difference between them is that, while one goes to church every week, the other never does. Knowing this, we can predict that the churchgoer will be 21 percentage points more likely to make a charitable gift of money during the year than the nonchurchgoer, and will also be 26 points more likely to volunteer.

              Q. But aren’t they just giving to religious charities and houses of worship?
              A. These enormous differences are not a simple artifact of religious people giving to their churches. Religious people are more charitable with secular causes, too. For example, in 2000, religious people were 10 percentage points more likely than secularists to give money to explicitly nonreligious charities, and 21 points more likely to volunteer. The value of the average religious household’s gifts to nonreligious charities was 14 percent higher than that of the average secular household, even after correcting for income differences.

              Religious people were also far more likely than secularists to give in informal, nonreligious ways. For example, in 2000, people belonging to religious congregations gave 46 percent more money to family and friends than people who did not belong. In 2002, religious people were far more likely to donate blood than secularists, to give food or money to a homeless person, and even to return change mistakenly given them by a cashier."

              "The fact is that self-described “conservatives” in America are more likely to give—and give more money—than self-described “liberals.” In the year 2000, households headed by a conservative gave, on average, 30 percent more dollars to charity than households headed by a liberal. And this discrepancy in monetary donations is not simply an artifact of income differences. On the contrary, liberal families in these data earned an average of 6 percent more per year than conservative families.

              These differences go beyond money. Take blood donations, for example. In 2002, conservative Americans were more likely to donate blood each year, and did so more often, than liberals. People who said they were “conservative” or “extremely conservative” made up less than one-fifth of the population, but donated more than a quarter of the blood. To put this in perspective, if political liberals and moderates gave blood like conservatives do, the blood supply in the United States would surge by nearly half.

              One major explanation for the giving discrepancy between conservatives and liberals is religion. In 2004, conservatives were more than twice as likely as liberals to attend a house of worship weekly, whereas liberals were twice as likely as conservatives to attend seldom or never. There are indeed religious liberals in America, but they are currently outnumbered by religious conservatives by about four to one."
              http://www.american.com/archive/2008/ma … -of-givers



              Among Americans who claim a religious affiliation, the study said, 65 percent give to charity. Among those who do not identify a religious creed, 56 percent make charitable gifts.

              About 75 percent of people who frequently attend religious services gave to congregations, and 60 percent gave to religious charities or nonreligious ones. By comparison, fewer than half of people who said they didn’t attend faith services regularly supported any charity, even a even secular one.
              http://philanthropy.com/article/Religio … re/143273/

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Republicans appeal to the sensibilities and values of the religious while standing for values that contradict their faith.

                1. Sed-me profile image82
                  Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  You forgot to post the link to the article from where you got that fact.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Democrat_vs_Republican

                    Economic Ideas

                    Democrat - Minimum wages and progressive taxation, i.e., higher tax rates for higher income brackets. Born out of anti-federalist ideals but evolved over time to favor more government regulation.

                    Republican - Believe taxes shouldn't be increased for anyone (including the wealthy) and that wages should be set by the free market.

                    Social and human ideas

                    Democrat - Based on community and social responsibility.

                    Republican - Based on individual rights and justice

                    I ask you to think of the teachings of Jesus. Do you think he spoke about community and social responsibility or the rights of individuals? Do you believe he taught that the free market should dictate the minimum wage or that the rich should not give to the poor?

              2. Cat333 profile image82
                Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks for this information, Beth. I didn't know.

            2. Onusonus profile image86
              Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The only problem Quill, is that the donations made by the nonreligious are out of the forced expense of the higher income earners. That is government mandated welfare generously taken at gun point or threat of imprisonment.

              1. JMcFarland profile image91
                JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                That's not true.  I donate regardless of how much I'm taxed because it's a good thing to do.  No one is forcing me at gunpoint to make sandwiches for the homeless without holding them hostage for a sermon first, or for donating to organizations that provide medical or health necessities for those in need, regardless of what their beliefs are.

                1. Onusonus profile image86
                  Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I'll see your not true, and raise you a yes it is.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image91
                    JMcFarlandposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Can you actually tell me how my donations are a direct result of my being taxed?   I don't see it.   Since you know more about my taxes and my charitable giving than I do,  please enlighten me.

    5. EncephaloiDead profile image60
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I would agree with you for the most part, however some of the nicest people to ever dawn these forums were Christians, just not the "I see Satan destroying the world" kind of Christians.

      These nice Christians know that, they are told so in so many words by others, including non-believers, but they are also attacked by the fundamentalists who believe Satan got at them, too. It's really quite fascinating, don't you think?

      I commend you for deciding to take an active role in not supporting Christianity, although, I'm sure you also know who those nice Christians are and would probably go on supporting them personally.

      They deserve support and respect. They are the honest Christians, and they behave quite unlike the Abrahamic God from which their religion originated, but like yourself, they hold respect for the ministry of Jesus and many of the good things he had to say.

      Sure, there's some pretty barbaric stuff going on in the NT, but like many other philosophies, there are often a few gems to take away. It's these honest Christians who have done just that.

      And, I applaud them. smile

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I don't disagree that there are 'honest Christians' in the forums. I don't know that I support anyone. Sure there are hubbers I personally like, but I share my opinion like everyone else and they do not support me, or I them, on most religious questions.

        I'm not sure I'm up to supporting anyone. Specific issues, maybe. But, I don't consider the search for the spiritual to be a team activity. Open discussion is all I seek. Without the drama and fabricated stories. I cannot support a notion that anyone is deemed special or that magical forces move through our world buffeting us around like rag dolls. This belief trivializes the thoughts of others on the subject.

        Personally, i haven't read a post where anyone degrades the ministry of Jesus. They could be there, but i haven't seen it. Which clearly tells me it isn't Jesus causing the problem. It's those who have convinced themselves they are the Metatron. I'm still struggling to understand how an adult could reach such a conclusion.

      2. Cat333 profile image82
        Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        That was nice of you to support them, ED.

    6. cjhunsinger profile image70
      cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Emile

      Christians come in many flavors, as too, all other beliefs, whether theistic, Atheistic  political, racial or cultural. With reference Christians most are content with believing what they believe and do not put themselves in the guise of a galloping Crusader, Don Quixote or an Inquisitor passing judgment on the lesser. These are the people, who attend their church on a regular basis, adhere to the principles of charity and "do unto others', and other admirable practices. They do not feel that you have to be wrong in order for them to be right. There is no condemnation, no judgement,  no expressed great truth that all must abide by.
      Occasionally, I participate on an Atheistic web site and many there are as militaristic as many Christians here.

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. And, I do think sensible atheists should speak out against militant atheism just as I would hope the Christians would. You don't want the rabble giving others a bad name without the others at least voicing their thoughts.

      2. Cat333 profile image82
        Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        "...most Christians are content with believing what they believe..."; "...no expressed great truth..."
        Doesn't sound like these words describe Jesus' disciples, those of the early church inspired by the Holy Spirit, or those taking the great commission seriously. Do you consider the disciples, the early church and all those who follow Jesus' own instructions to be in error? Or is it just that truth must be spoken in love with great patience and humility?

        If someone were given truth - especially truth that is a matter of life and death - but withheld it from me and willfully let me lose out on life, I would not see this as love, but as an apathetic and self-centered attitude about the truth itself and all of us who didn't yet have the Truth.

        Let's be careful not to pass judgment on our brothers and sisters in Christ. I will agree that SOME may not be called to go out and speak because God does not have the same purpose for each of us. So the one who lives quietly and serves is doing right, according to the purpose God has for them and the grace and gifts they've been given. And the one who declares the truth is doing right, according to the specific purposes and gifts given to them. "We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully." (Romans 12:6-8)

        May God bless you as you walk with him and grow in grace.

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          That is a contradiction. It is those who you claim do right by declaring the truth who are passing judgment on everyone else. So, please stop declaring the truth so that no one will pass judgment on anyone else.

          1. Cat333 profile image82
            Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Declaring the truth does NOT equate to passing judgment.

            The Truth has been established and cannot be changed. We are neither coming up with the truth nor condemning anyone nor pretending to know the final outcome that God alone knows. It is true that all those who come to the Father through Jesus Christ will be saved, as they cross over from condemnation and death to life; and all those who stand in their condemnation are not saved because they themselves refuse to pass over from death to life. The judgment is there from God - sin leads to death. The offer is there from God - salvation is found in Jesus Christ.

            We lay it down and present it to you. We pray and we hope for your own sake that the Lord will open your eyes to the truth and that you too will pass over from death to life in the Lord.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, it most certainly does equate to passing judgment.



              You have just passed judgment on me.

              1. cjhunsinger profile image70
                cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Encephaloi

                You are blessed with the patience that has been withheld from me. Does not god work in mysterious ways and his wonders to perform?

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, He does not. smile

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  This is the logic given when believers have no explanation for events. They claim to have intimate knowledge and a loving relationship with God, but fail to understand him. Would you marry the leader of a country who was allowing millions of children to die every year and only give the explanation that it's part of his plan? Would you explain to those around you that he works in mysterious ways?

              2. Cat333 profile image82
                Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I don't know if you'll be receiving eternal life or not; you may yet be my "unborn" brother who will be born again - that is, born of the Spirit - before you leave this earth. My Lord knows. No judgment on it here.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  And, once again, you pass judgment on me.

            2. Righteous Atheist profile image59
              Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I don't believe you. You have persuaded me that my choice to reject this fear mongering belief system was correct. You are a perfect example of the sort of self righteous hypocrisy that first made me decide it was a lie. You do not have any truths.

          2. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Finally... bright lights hurt some eyes. A given...

        2. cjhunsinger profile image70
          cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Deleted

          1. Cat333 profile image82
            Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Let's see - those following the lead of the Spirit will love and be merciful and patient and declare the Lord's favor and grace. This is what true Christians - those who worship in spirit and in truth - are doing. An Islamic "terrorist" is terrorizing - torturing, killing, etc. See the difference?

            Be careful when relying on historical accounts. You were not there to witness how it really happened, and the powers that be will not give you an unbiased presentation. In your own life, when was the last time you witnessed Christians killing people? We've heard of a few "Christians" who've killed in our day out of hatred for this or that group (they certainly make big news), but this is such a rare exception and we know this is not the way of Christianity. Feeding the hungry, caring for the homeless and prisoners, sharing the good news about Jesus Christ... these we see are the actions of the Christians.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You do realize that is not an argument because you also were never there when they allegedly placed Jesus on the cross.

            2. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              "An Islamic "terrorist" is terrorizing - torturing, killing, etc. See the difference?"
              "Be careful when relying on historical accounts. You were not there to witness how it really happened, and the powers that be will not give you an unbiased presentation."

              Do you see the irony that these sentences came in sequence? You trust historical accounts of Islamic terrorist terrorizing yet ask people to not trust the historical accounts of the crusades?

        3. Cgenaea profile image59
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus was very serious about his ministry. He held back nothing. True love is telling your brother, "Hey!!! Watch that big black deep hole just ahead of you!!!"
          How can you say you love him and do differently? Bible says, you can't.

          1. Cat333 profile image82
            Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes! It's interesting that when it comes to Christianity, apathy gets labeled as love and daring to care and speak the truth that God has given to humankind gets labeled as judgment. Guess we know exactly why that is, though...

            1. Jomine Jose profile image79
              Jomine Joseposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You two are bent on proving the OP right, aren't you?

      3. EncephaloiDead profile image60
        EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Got a link to that site?

        1. cjhunsinger profile image70
          cjhunsingerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Several

          Reddit Atheism
          Richard Dawkins
          Pharyngula
          Friendly Atheist
          The Skeptic’s Dictionary
          Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
          Common Sense Atheism
          Unreasonable Faith
          Skeptic’s Annotated Bible – 99,115

          1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
            EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you, sir.

    7. jmark13 profile image82
      jmark13posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Emile, there's no reasoning with faith. That's the entire point. In order to really get the Christian gospel, you would have had to have been present with the original founders of Christianity. The hundred of years that separate us have recycled and essentially hijacked the idea so all you know is what people who weren't there; tell you. Rather than try to 'find the truth' you should abandon the effort and accept that it's all just insignificant ritual and text.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Superstition. It's a big bunch of superstition.

      2. Chris Neal profile image83
        Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Or, keep trying to find the truth. That would actually be the sane thing to do.

    8. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I am glad you hold respect for the ministry of Jesus and goodness.  Your choosing to no longer support Christians is a choice toward what seems the whole group of Christians. (Some of your wording indicates lumping, some not.  Overall it seems the post is lumping, am I wrong?) 

      I have found in life that I see some that engage in the negative traits you list, and some that don't.  Normally, or in the past, I have found you to respect those particular differences.  The facts of the differences mattered to you before, I mean.

      Your choice to no longer seek out any "reason" in arguments from Christians is something that seems out of the ordinary from you.   Emile, you say, "The lies and innuendo, the games many play circumventing the truth, the total lack of regard most show toward their fellow man in order to prop up their egos. The gyrations around verses in order to circumvent the spirit of the intent."....  To those that would do those kinds of things, I don't know of anyone that would suggest you SHOULD support those types of people or things or religions.  Jesus didn't support it and spoke out on hypocritical behavior.  I don't support it.  I would never expect you to.   

      To me, this is not really any different than anyone else putting a particular face or label on Christianity, Christ or Christians, then acting like that label fits just for the saying so. (There are many on HP)  I know i have been absent a lot due to my schedule, but this is a different Emile to me.   I don't fault you for making the choices you have clearly made here.  I am just noting a big change and you allude to that as well.  In the past, when I have seen this from others but not so much from you, not for an ongoing amount of time anyway.  (Other than what seems to be a here and there out of character type of comment, only to get back to what seems more the norm, imo and observation.)

      You also say, " You've allowed the fringe to define you to those outside the faith too long for me to continue to give the religion the benefit of the doubt. It's really very sad that these have become the face of Christianity."

      How can "I" allow the fringe to define me like you say, that I lose your giving me or my "religion" the benefit of the doubt?  How is that any different than you just saying you are allowing yourself to choose to define the whole group or religion by the fringe element out there?  I share this and ask this to explain my comment of noticing a big change.  How is it any different than you just saying you are allowing the "fringe" to become the face of Christianity for you?  This is just a simple choice on your part it seems.  It is able to be done, sure. Anyone can do that and they do on HP all the time.  But then you spoke of stopping the looking for "reason" in people's arguments.  So its baffling to me.  Or maybe it makes sense in another light, actually.... (?) 

      None of it all maybe matters really, but on the other hand, if there is any truth to a possible truth in Jesus, you might be missing out on something really big due to some simple choices like you have indicated.  And all because of some people that act contrary to what they say they believe in.  In that sense, it wouldn't be worth it, or too much to possibly lose for what would turn out to be a very bad reason.

      Anyway, (edit) I wanted to add that you have been one of my favorites on these boards for years.  You know that though. smile

    9. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Dishonesty in the ranks of Christians.....  (?)  Sure, we can all find and point out examples of that.

      I think we can find dishonesty in the ranks of ALL kinds of views from the beginning of human history until now.  Views that would also rank honesty as a good trait, something to be upheld as good, moral and ethical.  I think to those that said they did not esteem honesty, that we could test that idea and find they really do esteem it.  Therefore, to any that practice dishonesty, they would be going against their own moral code.   So the idea that you are giving up on Christians, to give up on listening to their possible reasoning, is a concern or interesting because it seems so pinpointed.  The problem you pinpoint is a human one, not just a Christian one.   

      Not long ago, we would find you echoing these sentiments.  For such a change if it is really the case with you, I suppose it is good to know about for those discussing and debating here.  To me, the bigger question could be, "what would explain this, that can actually explain this?"

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I see you posted twice. I'll use this to reply and hope I clarify. No. I don't think all Christians are dishonest. In real life, I don't run into the problems I see here. To be honest, I started this thread at a moment of frustration when two professed Christian hubbers were running on and on with a vein of dishonesty and disdain for all other beliefs and another professed Christian made a comment against the behavior patterns and then proceeded to gloss over it all as if 'nice' was the correct response to such as that.

        I simply think fringe groups being allowed to go unchallenged with many of what I thought were mainstream believers supporting their behavior patterns makes what I had assumed was mainstream appear to be aligned with these odd beliefs.  If that is the case, I find it difficult to support the idea of Christianity as it is displayed.

        Please note that I don't equate Christianity with Jesus' teachings so this is not intended to imply that I am making a negative statement about Jesus. I wouldn't want to have to go through another ridiculous conversation (not with you, just someone who appears to have a problem with my opinion) on that.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Emile, thanks. 

          If people were to make up Christianity to be whatever they want, (like people looking at Christians apart from Christs teachings?) then to me it makes no sense to criticize it.  In reality, isn't it really just a touting of the goodness of Jesus and his teachings I think for those with a critical eye to want to see truth?  It is in essence criticizing people for going against the teachings of Jesus.  I can appreciate that irony at least.

          If your OP is in response to just some simple frustration by some hypocritical people's behavior, then that is one thing.  It seemed you had done or have done a 180 and I explained in my original post.  I understand now I think.  Like so many others, it seemed you are getting on the same bandwagon that was predicted would be in place so long ago, by Christ himself. 

          I value fairness, and wish freedoms for all people.  I can't make anyone else be fair, but do very much respect it when I see it. 

          I am sure I have missed what particular things that you think are going unchallenged by the mainstream Christians.  Do you care to reiterate that or share?  Like what kinds of things?  What is the measuring stick you use to measure when they do create enough of a challenge to the fringe, and what would that even look like so they might not fail in your eyes and result in such OP's as this?  My point being, isn't this a bit ambiguous of a point, to be using it for the explanation of the reason for writing such an OP in the first place?   Especially if the kind of Christian they are supposed to be is NOT the kind that = Christs teachings?  You begin to see the problem....

          What you allude to, is a type of Christianity that no one ought to get on board with, and one that Christ didn't teach.  Its like pointing out the faults of a "non" Christian.

          If you take out the "Christ" or "Christ's teachings" out of Christianity how can we know what you are using to measure up a whole group of people against? Wouldn't it just be against Emile's views of what is right and wrong for people that call themselves Christians that lack Christs teachings?  If so, why not do this with all views held in the world that go against your own?  It seems like they could be in the fault zone no matter what in your eyes. 

          Criticizing people that don't measure up to a "non Christ" or "minus Christ's teachings" type of Christianity and calling that a "bad thing" is something I can maybe get on board with (almost).  Especially if I understood what the measuring stick was.  The best way I can personally view all of this is that it is another cool shout out to the true goodness of Jesus and his teachings and their life giving and eternal quality they have, inherently.  I maybe don't disagree as much as I thought once I read your explanation, so thanks.  I just understand it better now, or in a new light.

  2. Cat333 profile image82
    Cat333posted 2 years ago

    Beth - I hope everything goes well with your tooth and your job. And I hope you feel better soon.

    But Beth - not me, nor Cgenaea, nor SirDent, nor Bberean have done any major wrong (all humans have room for improvement at all times) or anything that should surprise you. I get that you think my particular defense of the provocative accusation was unladylike or inappropriate, and that we shouldn't have been discussing the situation, but I take blaming attitudes toward women very seriously and my fight against such is not only a fight for myself but for women and victims in general. The initial point was the fulfilled prophecy and victory foretold by God, which was then "dragged through the mud". It seems you want peace where peace is not possible. Jesus himself said: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34). We likewise are involved in many spiritual battles.

    It isn't any of us who are behaving differently. Even when you first popped into the thread I started, it wasn't to answer the question or give any spiritual insight, and nothing you've been saying has been about spiritual matters, but only trivial things that I'm not sure why we'd be discussing in the religious forums. Maybe it's too stressful a time for you to be here. You've been surprised, you say, at the posts of four of your brothers and sisters (as well as your friend Emile), but I've been surprised at your posts (I think in the past you would have said thank you when I wished you well at your new job).

    Well, this thread seems a bit gossipy and judgmental to me, so maybe not a healthy environment. Take care, Beth.

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Gossipy and judgmental? Do you actually bother to read your own posts or can we assume the hand of God moves through you and you aren't responsible for your own words? If so, that is one negative, gossipy, judgmental god you've got there.

  3. Mel92114 profile image59
    Mel92114posted 2 years ago

    Hello Emile and everyone, long time no see. MysticMoonlight here, if you guys remember me? I've missed you guys!

    There are some absolutely awesome Christians here on HubPages. They are as close to Christ-like as I've ever known possible. They are kind, slow to anger, hospitable and honest. I'm glad and so proud that I know them. They've given me inspiration and joy and I'm grateful they are here because there are some Christians here that are few, if any of these things. There are people of all walks of life here that are lacking in that which they represent or hold dear. We could all be more Christ-like, wouldn't hurt a single one of us to strive to do so, however, insisting or supposing that everyone must fall into a certain criteria or mold to qualify as being truly like Christ is where the divisions are born. What good is that doing anyone? Some want or even insist on this division or they feel they fall short of being a good or proper Christian.Those that insist on this need to understand, you are insisting that people be Christian to be like Christ but believe it or not, some people strive to be like Christ but care NOTHING for being Christian. They strive to be Christ-like, not Christian. One is not always necessarily inclusive of the other. If that offends you, be prepared for people that don't give a damn.

    Be good to one another, be kind to one another, help and love your fellow man, no matter what religion or lack thereof. That's being Christ-like, IMO. If that is a problem, then maybe the question is, is it more important to be a Christian or like Christ? What about both, it can be done. What's more important?

    Peace.

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Welcome back. Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are correct. There are beautiful people in every faith and every belief. Sometimes the ones who don't fit that criteria in my mind block the view.

      1. Mel92114 profile image59
        Mel92114posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you smile

    2. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. A lot of good points.

      1. Mel92114 profile image59
        Mel92114posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you as well, Cat333 smile

    3. 0
      Motown2Chitownposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Great to see you back! Welcome! big_smile

      1. Mel92114 profile image59
        Mel92114posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks, Mo! Great to be back! smile

  4. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    Mystic moonlight, why are you not you anymore?

    1. Mel92114 profile image59
      Mel92114posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hello Beth. I deleted my account. Got sick of it all and wiped it all out. Makes me kind of nauseous now. I wish I hadn't done that. sad

      1. Sed-me profile image82
        Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        haha, no one understands more than I. smile
        I hope you did not lose a lot of money.
        Did you save your work? I think I lost a lot of mine.

        1. Mel92114 profile image59
          Mel92114posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I lost some money, not a lot, lot but still...bummer.

          I still have some of my work, lost some of it though...double bummer.

          I hope your tooth gets well pronto. Tooth pain is its own type of Hell, IMO.

  5. bBerean profile image60
    bBereanposted 2 years ago

    Any good jokes, Sir Dent?  Looks like we could use one about here.

    1. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Bravo! smile

  6. 0
    SirDentposted 2 years ago

    A kindergarten teacher gave her class a "show and tell" assignment of bringing something to represent their religion.
           
          The first boy got in front of the class and said, "My name is Benjamin and I am Jewish and this is the Star of David."
           
          The second boy got in front of the class and said, "My name is Mary. I'm am Catholic and this is the Crucifix."
           
          The third boy got in front of the class and said, " My name is Tommy and I am Baptist and this is a casserole."

    1. bBerean profile image60
      bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      That day, they were all Baptists.  wink

  7. 0
    SirDentposted 2 years ago

    There will be a meeting of the Board immediately after the service," announced the pastor.
           
          After the close of the service, the Church Board gathered at the back of the auditorium for the announced meeting. But there was a stranger in their midst -- a visitor who had never attended their church before.
           
          "My friend," said the pastor, "Didn't you understand that this is a meeting of the Board?"
           
          "Yes," said the visitor, "and after today's sermon, I suppose I'm just about as bored as anyone else who came to this meeting."

  8. 0
    SirDentposted 2 years ago

    Cowboy Joe was telling his fellow cowboys back on the ranch about his first visit to a big-city church.
           
          "When I got there, they had me park my old truck in the corral," Joe began.
           
          "You mean the parking lot," interrupted Charlie, a more worldly fellow.
           
          "I walked up the trail to the door," Joe continued.
           
          "The sidewalk to the door," Charlie corrected him.
           
          "Inside the door, I was met by this dude," Joe went on.
           
          "That would be the usher," Charlie explained.
           
          "Well, the usher led me down the chute," Joe said.
           
          "You mean the aisle," Charlie said.
           
          "Then, he led me to a stall and told me to sit there," Joe continued.
           
          "Pew," Charlie retorted.
           
          "Yeah," recalled Joe. "That's what that pretty lady said when I sat down beside her."

  9. Cat333 profile image82
    Cat333posted 2 years ago

    I've found that truth is more unbelievable than fiction. If we were writing a novel, we'd not dare put in the true experiences that would be perceived as too coincidental, miraculous, and so on, for fear we'd make our story too unbelievable. Yet when it is true, we often give the testimony, even knowing it will be rejected by those blind to the truth or even by Christians lacking faith in the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. True but naturally remarkable testimony gives hope and encouragement to some, but becomes a test to others, and reveals if we're listening with natural or spiritual ears.

    1. bBerean profile image60
      bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      True, I have several stories I could recount, which have nothing to do with my beliefs or spirituality, but contain elements that would be hard for others to believe.  I temper those sensational details for fear nobody would believe them and the value of the rest of the tale would be lost.  If those elements are the point of the story, however, as is sometimes the case with testimony, they must be included regardless of how receptive the audience may be.

      1. Cat333 profile image82
        Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Yes!

    2. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      True.

  10. 0
    SirDentposted 2 years ago

    Rom_3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

  11. 0
    SirDentposted 2 years ago

    John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    1. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Amen!!

  12. Mel92114 profile image59
    Mel92114posted 2 years ago

    And just who is wicked, Cgenaea? And just why does believing that the wicked are going to the lake seem to please you so?

    1. Cgenaea profile image59
      Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Because it pleased Jesus; if simply mentioning the truth of it, is indicative.
      Search the scriptures for a description of wickedness.

  13. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    Ok, I'm signing off... this has been a fun day, between the toothache and the forums. lol

    Have a great night everyone.  smile

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Good night. Enjoyed the chat.

  14. Cgenaea profile image59
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    It sounded as vile to me your way. I didn't report your post. But again, I'll never run from you. If I must sit out for a year or two, I may come up with a book.
    Maybe not so bad.

  15. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    Im getting the ole block sign again... can only read your posts by clicking on reply, which doesn't allow me to see who anyone is talking to.

    Im going to assume Ed, that you are talking to JM and me. I already sent JM my observations of 1-5 so the train has left the station. wink

    I think JM and I could have a really interesting, introspective conversation privately. I think if we were to have it on this forum, it would turn into another free-for-all and all hopes of productive conversation would be lost.

  16. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    I just realized you founded this, yes?
    Ugh, Im sorry. It is just the first paragraph I have an issue with. It sounds very positive other than that. Im sorry if my comments were offensive. sad

    1. Cat333 profile image82
      Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Don't worry, I want honest feedback, and if there's a tone that offends, I don't want that. Just trying to figure out how to keep the focus on God as Creator but perhaps with a different tone.

      1. Sed-me profile image82
        Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        It's really just the first paragraph, " In a culture that increasingly denies our Creator and places stumbling blocks in the way of belief in our Lord Jesus Christ,"

        It's very professional and builds a great image... something to get excited about... it's just that line. It's like a dig right at the beginning of something that otherwise, sounds incredibly positive. Let the focus be on God, not His detractors.

        1. Cat333 profile image82
          Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. That line was pretty much to point to the need in this particular day, but I do see what you're saying.

          1. bBerean profile image60
            bBereanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Cat,
                 Nice job on the site.  I applaud your initiative on this.  Considering your target demographic is Christians, as a means of supporting and encouraging one another, I see no problem with the line in question.  I don't consider it too negative but simply accurate, and not in an "in your face" way.  Honestly, I wouldn't see an issue with it even if your demographic where the general public as an outreach.  It's still subtle and true.
            Again, nice job. 

            I shared your link on my Facebook page.

            1. Righteous Atheist profile image59
              Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              How ironic.

            2. Cat333 profile image82
              Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you, bBerean! Your encouraging words mean a lot, and I'm glad you're sharing it!

              I was told earlier today that a friend heard someone talking about it at their kid's dance class. Didn't know it had reached that far yet! The website's picking up Facebook "likes" pretty fast, so I imagine a lot more have at least visited it and know about it. Maybe God will open the door for it sooner than I expected!

              Thanks again for your encouragement!

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Acts 4:29-31New International Version (NIV)

                29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

                Thank you both, for omitting the syrup chaser smile Christians not sounding loving enough is a huge cop out, conveniently added to shroud the words that sting us often. We are held responsible when we add OR subtract from the message of God.
                I pray that all goes as intended for Creator Day!

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Interesting. Beth was the only Christian who commented against the off putting opening line. Can we assume you are talking about Beth? Does that mean nice is not a quality admired by what you label Christians?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Please do not assume anything. I speak as I am led.
                    We've had a rough ride; encouragement and assurance seemed fitting for me and mine.
                    I think that, more than anything, Christians are to be honest. (One reason the spirit of deception, challenges them in that area) There is a way to be nice with truth. But honestly speaking, the truth is not always the most pleasant thing to hear. No matter how nice I said to my aunt (who seemed to dislike me), "That's not a nice thing to say about prople." She was extremely offended.
                    All others, who know me personally, consider me a nice person who is fun to be around.
                    Do you?

                  2. Sed-me profile image82
                    Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I get where Cat was coming from with the line... We do live in a world where... well look at these threads. Our love for Christ is scoffed at, some ppl like to make us out to be bad guys, even though Churches are constantly serving the community etc. The crusades were how many hundreds of years ago, yet ppl still like to act like we would have anything to do with that? So yeah, I get the line. It's how she probably feels... I happen to live in a town that embraces God and does a lot of really neat things... I live in the Bible belt... other than these forums, I am not often faced with open hostility so I personally would have used a different approach. But we are not all the same. That should be obvious by now, and if that is where she is coming from, I can understand it. I am sorry for being overly critical when she was trying to do something positive.

                2. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you, Cgenaea!

                  Sometimes it's a hard balance to find - love is supreme and we love all people, but yet we don't want to tolerate wickedness, conform to the pattern of the world, or have any unholy union. As it's written, "Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them."

                  Because the Spirit gives different gifts to his children and works through us in various ways, I want to be careful not to assume anything regarding my brothers and sisters who may be following the lead of the Spirit according to the gifts he gives them, which may differ from mine. I consider all that my brothers and sisters say to me and will consider change unless God has already spoken something definitively to me. I've been thinking about what Beth has said, and also about what bBerean and you have said, since you are all my sisters and brother.

                  I want to walk in love and I want to declare truth with boldness. Just got to let the Spirit help me walk that line and I know that He will turn me back as he always does when I begin to walk to the right or to the left of it.

              2. Sed-me profile image82
                Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, +1 on bBerean's encouraging post. I'm sorry if mine was too negative. I hope the day is very blessed for all involved Cat. smile

                1. Cat333 profile image82
                  Cat333posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks, Beth. I don't think it was too negative. You had concern about a particular line and you were honest about that. Of course encouragement helps, but honesty is certainly better than a flattering tongue. I will see how the Spirit leads.

  17. Righteous Atheist profile image59
    Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago

    Like pushing your irrational beliefs on innocent children? wink

    Tell you what - you guys stop pushing your irrational beliefs - I will stop telling you how divisive they are.

    Deal? wink

  18. Cgenaea profile image59
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them.

    Good God!!! That fits here!!! Perfectly!!! .

  19. 0
    Emile Rposted 2 years ago

    Anyone offended by an innocuous saying is, in my opinion, seeking to be offended. I really am not sure why you would have posted here in the first place, other than to find a way to find offense.  I won't defend myself against your misinformed ramblings.

    1. Onusonus profile image86
      Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I was of course being facetious, which is why I followed up by saying few things actually offend me. Rather I am saddened by your selective outrage towards Christians.

      Speaking of not defending yourself. Here you are. wink

      1. 0
        Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I saw that more as a response to you. Not a defense.  Defending myself would be explaining why I believe you are wrong in all of your assumptions.

        1. Onusonus profile image86
          Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, isn't that nice? You get to go around passing judgment on your target group, telling people that they are wrong, and attacking their character without having to justify your reasoning. Opening a soft tirade at them, guns locked and loaded with unearned moral high ground. Clearly it is not worth defending yourself because you have no defense.

          1. 0
            Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            OK. Instead of arguing over something trivial. Let's attempt to determine why we are at odds.

            You think I have attacked Christianity, as a whole. If I had, I am confused as to why this would be a problem. Christianity, in my opinion, attacks other beliefs when it attempts to put forth an argument that the adherent is privy to a cosmic truth which causes those not in agreement to somehow lose out on an eternal scale. That is an attack on the good name of every human not in agreement with that particular belief.

            But, it doesn't stop there. Many push forth an argument that even every day decisions we make, lifestyles we maintain, cause some to lose out on an eternity.So, not only is our failure to agree with the particular adherent a cosmic death sentence; but our very existence is pushed as an affront to their deity. So, we find that the adherent believes we are not worthy of eternity on two counts. The adherent believes in this scenario and prays for this scenario to come to pass.

            I don't believe in this scenario. I don't believe that attempts at judgment on this scale are biblically supported nor do I see any evidence within the history of this world to support such a belief. And, I see ample reason to think that there is enough information within the Bible for anyone to come to a completely opposite conclusion than the one pushed so fervently by some.

            So, if my belief is that some Christians, on a daily scale, attack everyone who doesn't adher to their particular belief structure; if it is my belief that they abandon common decency, good reason, any semblance of propriety and even a remote glimpse of compassion......why would I not point it out? Why would I not expect a Christian who has the ability to recognize deviations from common decency, good reason, a semblance of propriety and even a remote sense of compassion to speak out against this?

            Bottom line. If Christians willingly allow others to use that term when referring to themselves they must accept that the behavior patterns of the worst among them, those who chose to be the most outspoken, will be viewed as the defining characteristics of that faith. If you expect to retain a good name, you cannot allow your name to be abused so freely. If you refer to people who wantonly display these characteristics as your brother or sister in Christ then you give the appearance of rubber stamping their behavior patterns.

            I have't attacked Christianity as a whole. I have simply pointed out that these behavior patterns are less than admirable and I do not want to lose my ability to view the faith with fairness; simply because these behavior patterns go unchallenged by others who claim to bear the same name.

            1. Onusonus profile image86
              Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Well Emilie I never said you were attacking Christianity on a whole, but now I'm saying it.
              You don't seem to understand that it is a fundamental doctrine in Christianity to believe that the only way to eternal salvation is through Jesus Christ. If you have missed that part then perhaps you should read it over again, because he makes it pretty clear on several occasions.
              The problem is you think it is a character flaw to inform people about the very precepts that the religion is based on. That is salvation through Jesus.
              And that it is the very reason it is the favorite topic of agnostics and atheists to poke at, and ridicule. The whole "you think I'm going to hell because your a judgmental jerk" is a intellectual farce because it's blatantly asserted throughout the handbook.
              In reality you are the one who is being hypocritical and polarizing when you open with this very topic, and then tell anyone who refutes you to quit being trivial. There's no logic in it.

              1. Righteous Atheist profile image59
                Righteous Atheistposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Quite right. This is indeed a fear mongering, conflict creating, judgmental belief system. Well said.

                Thankfully it is dying out. wink

              2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Excuse me for editing your post as I did, but I wanted to use your own words to answer the question as to why Christianity is often attacked and ridiculed.

                Yes, we do indeed understand that fundamental doctrine of Christianity, it has been  repeated over and over for centuries, perhaps many, many billions, trillions of times.

                It rarely goes unnoticed considering how popular it is to evangelize that doctrine, even on state highway billboards and buses.

                And, while it is true that doctrine is actually rejected by more than two-thirds of the worlds population, it still ceases to amaze whenever it is repeated. Truly, one of great redundancies of our time.

              3. 0
                Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Well, I do think anyone who thinks people are going to hell because they don't agree with them is a judgmental jerk; as you put it. What person can look into the heart of another? I'm sorry if you don't see it as an ego trip gone really, really bad. It's, basically,  calling yourself God. Which we all do when we come to conclusions on what we think might matter cosmically. I don't have the power, or the desire, to condemn anyone to hell. I simply wonder what it is that drives a mentality who would adopt such a philosophy.

                1. Onusonus profile image86
                  Onusonusposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Jesus, that's who. Sorry you don't like him. Interestingly you started off by saying that you respect his ministry, which obviously you don't. Or perhaps you just don't understand what he was all about.
                  So you've just thrown Jesus in the pile as a "judgmental jerk", because he is the biggest and most righteous judge of all.

                  1. 0
                    Emile Rposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Please don't attempt to drag the good name of Jesus down with you.