I know my threads are taken as controversial by many Christians (funny thing. I Swyped Christians and charlatans came up instead. Freudian slip? Hmm) But, back to the point. I apologize. I am simply attempting to understand how a simple belief structure allows some to embark upon antisocial behavior patterns so self righteously.
Many of you claim to be led by the spirit. What would you consider to be the most defining attribute of that spirit?
"Many of you claim to be led by the spirit. What would you consider to be the most defining attribute of that spirit?" ~
Perhaps (a whole array of interesting) 'disabilities'.
A detailed list would be helpful. And the why.
You might start with hospital records available on the net. That's a good place to start.
You might start by simply explaining your position. I have no idea what you are driving at with that post.
The point is that perhaps the spirit isn't subjected by any disabilities as we possibly are: both physical and emotional. Otherwise perhaps there is no basic difference between us - and the spirit.
Yes, there is a great deal of differences, we tend to think.
Since any kind of measurable visual or audible detection is not available, the most defining attribute of the "Spirit" appears to be the amazing ability to persuade good people to do bad things. Oddly enough, this attribute is common amongst many cults.
I do agree with your assessment. I also understand many are blind to this. They speak of love and don't understand the hate in their personal testimony.
Exactly, they believe everything they say is love. They have been persuaded they can do no wrong or behave disgracefully and dishonestly. They believe they have been chosen and are vastly superior to the rest of us. We are but lost souls, remember?
But, who really is lost? That appears to be the general theme on those pushing an opinion as truth. I don't necessarily doubt that an answer may be out there. It simply appears to me the thought that one has an answer creates not a snowball effect. It is much worse than that. An avalanche of ego whose soul purpose is to insulate that person from any information which might jeopardize faith in the conclusion.
We are, of course. We lack the faith. Instead, we reason, under the influence of Satan. We have not yet committed ourselves to Jesus as they have. That makes us lost souls.
Eureka, he's finally understood, albeit facetiously, but at least he writes the truth.
I think you all better just continue with your 'black panther party' (ref: Forrest Gump) and keep on endorsing each other.
I also think you all have an unhealthy interest in trying to debunk all believers faith.
Some folk can cook, others not, some are artists, others cannot paint a wall, let alone a canvas, but you never see bad cooks or lousy artists spending their lives trying to tell those who can do, that they are wrong in their abilities or deceived in their use of talents they have gained.
methinks thou protesteth too much....
All believers in faith? Interesting that you would take your anti social philosophy and attempt to paint every person of faith with it. I think the evidence refutes you, fairly well.
When I say 'believers' I refer to those who believe in Yeshua (Jesus Christ) not just any god, when I say faith I mean the same.
People have faith in science or other things of the world, I simply distinguish faith in Yeshua as being separated from other 'faiths'.
Yes. I get that. The problem still stands. Not all who believe in Yeshua display similar behavior patterns which they assume are acceptable due to their beliefs.
Not really Emile, the name Yeshua is specific, it's His Aramaic name, those who use it will normally be of a Messianic background, they will have dug deeper into the scriptures, they will probably not be a 'member' of a traditional church, and will place personal relationship over doctrinal agreement as a measure of fellowship.
When we examine Churchianity however, I agree with you mostly.
Ah - so not only are you better than non believers - your churchiantity is better than all the others.
Well, this is problematic for me, but honing in on where the deviation begins; somewhat. Since some of the groups which push this type of behavior don't believe in an indwelling of the spirit.
I'm not sure I like it. 'One in Christ' is replaced for 'One as Christ' or 'One with Christ'. I get that. Different interpretations. Different reactions. But, it appears the One in Christ crowd may be an important separation point. They appear to put the example of Christ out as their model for behavior, whereas the ones in the other two groups appear to believe their anti social behavior patterns are driven by inner voices.
Edit. It just occurred to me why the One in Christ crowd is fairly silent on the subject. If you follow the example of Christ and call yourself a follower of Christ you are stuck with you guys because you believe in the premise of One in Christ. What a pickle.
Don't be so surprised, I well understood that some time ago, it is something that has been repeated over and over by those who claim it's ultimate truth. Of course, it's no more a truth than the thinly veiled premises that tend to support it.
If from the unhealthy obsession of evangelizing your ultimate truths in the public domain could only spawn a healthy interest in whether or not your ultimate truths stand to reason and scrutiny, which of course they don't, hence your dismay and irritation.
From the very high pinnacle of the tower you sit looking down upon us with the air of contrived superiority, what talents exactly have you gained that we poor measly pieces of flotsam floating in the toilet bowl of life have missed?
Before I answer this question, because I think it's a great one, are you addressing all who try to follow Jesus and identify ourselves as Christians or only those who have identified themselves here as spirit- filled?
All, of course. And, anyone else who wants to comment. Wouldn't be much point in attempting to limit the dialogue. I think you can probably guess where I'm headed with this so I'm sure your comments would be helpful.
Well, in that case, here goes:
For me, the most defining attribute of the Holy Spirit is compassionate love. I think, personally, that was the reason Jesus came and walked among us. He took on our flesh that he might truly understand our pain. He became a human being that he might truly feel what it was to desire
to love unconditionally, but not always be able to because of our own needs and fears and limits. To understand, perhaps, that pain and hunger and a need to be loved can keep us from the fullness of beauty that he intended for each person at our creation.
All of that, that now first hand knowledge of how it feels to never be complete...to be constantly seeking, searching, questioning, wondering, all of that knowledge put him in a position to love us even more, and to realize our desperate need for his love, his mercy, and his compassion. Maybe, in my opinion, it moved him to relent on whatever punishment might have ever awaited us for our failings and decide only to encourage us for the rest of time with his compassionate, empathetic love.
So, the way I see it, the Holy Spirt fills us with a new type of vision - the ability to really, really see each other - and a new type of empathy...the ability to really, really love each other more deeply than was ever possible.
While I don't, in any way, discount the Old Testament, I think the law HAS been fulfilled, and that we are now called to love Jesus and emulate him as closely as we can, in order to love each other with the same passion. I think the Lord has no joy in our total devotion to him if we can't offer the same to one another.
So...in short, compassionate love. The kind that gets its hands dirty, and empties its bank account, shares too little food, and stuffs more people than can fit into one room so that everyone has a warm, dry place to sleep. Does that kind of love help you become a better person? Yes. But in yours and God's time, and as gently as possible.
I'm still practicing that kind of love. Sometimes I'm not all that great at it.
Alright. Yeh. I agree. It's the example of perfection we can't individually attain but should aspire to in whatever way we can.
Interesting. I wonder how different sects work their around this and into a polar opposite philosophy. The whole idea of it seems very evident in the gospels.
You know, I'm not sure. There's a lot about who I am that doesn't measure up to A-who Jesus is, and B-who I think he wants me to be. I am a naturally passionate person. I get irritated and open my mouth when I shouldn't, try to clean everyone's houses instead of sweeping my own front porch. The worst, though, is that one fault I share with all of my human brothers and sisters-that tendency to pick them apart for all of the things they do wrong while I stand there and do it myself.
My mother and I had an argument when I was a teenager. I smarted off to her pretty bad and she overreacted. She was right to be unhappy, but she went too far. Later, she apologize to me and told me that she couldn't believe how much worse her faults looked on me.
From my perspective, you are a master at it. You are a beacon and role model of that which emulates the good things that can be found within your faith. My only wish is that others who share your faith would act accordingly.
I think everyone should act like me too, darn it! Except when I'm acting like a big jerk and need a swift kick in the pants.
All joking aside, I do try. I want to do whatever I can to let others be the recipients of that love the way I have been.
A defining attribute of spirit, if you believe in that kind of thing, is that it is something better, or as some may say it is something higher, than ourselves, not higher than others, higher than ourselves. If you are truly led by spirit, you cannot be self righteous or engage in anti social behavior because that would not be higher or better. The spirit has no ego and cannot be arrogant or petty, no -ists or -isms there either.
Being led by the indwelling Holy spirit is a personal experience and this is one of the most important experiences of christian life. Whatever is recorded in the Bible as fruit of the Spirit are the key attributes of the Holy Spirit.
Every born again christian can experience the inner voice of the Spirit, inner witness of the Spirit, and the teaching of the Spirit. Being sensitive to the Holy spirit, who lives in us, is the first step to be led by the Spirit.
And how does this manifest itself exactly?
That's all well and good but could you answer the question?
But not an answer to the question posed. Only one Christian has come on and answered this. That I know of.
Just went through. Only two.
Alright, well, here's my stab at answering the question:
Since God is Spirit and the Spirit is him (and Jesus Christ is him who came in the flesh), I'll speak of the defining attribute(s) of them all together. The MOST defining characteristics of God/Jesus/Spirit I'd say are love and truth. God's attributes are described throughout the Word: his power and sovereignty and wisdom and knowledge and mercy and patience and goodness and holiness and perfection and so on. But when it comes to love and truth, they are not merely used to describe him, but he IS them. "God is love" (1 John 4:8) and Jesus said of himself that he is the "truth" (John 14:16).
So with love and truth as the most defining attributes of God, we his children, though we falter as humans, should strive to walk in love and truth above all else.
Reliance on a deity reduces the willpower of the individual.
When individuals lack willingness to think for themselves they are more easily controlled by authority.
Regardless of which side of the Cross we stand, there is always the problem of reasoning out a matter. The problem with reasoning is it suggests to some, maybe most, there is a knowable, reasonable answer or conclusion to every problem. And when that is not realized, or when one cannot convince others of their conclusion, illogic kicks in and the responses become abrasive. The atheist says there is no God but has no proofs, outside of opinion, on which to found this position. Opinion would include verbal and written material of others also.
But Christians are in almost the same state, with one exception. We have the Bible which is the word of God and is an unbroken, inerrant history of this present age, but have no "credible proofs" acceptable to the atheist. And now the argument, no debate, begins.
Both sides have a nature that does not accept compromise. In the real world, this results in war, breaking things and killing people. In "debate" world it results in those abrasive responses of which both sides are capable.
Being "led by the spirit" in those instances is being led by the spirit of man. There might be a "the Bible says" which it probably does, but it is not the voice of reason. It is the voice of ego.
But, non-believers, don't smirk. Ego has no religion, no denomination, no philosophical statement nor epistemological candor. Ego is its own reward and punishment. We all share these "fruits of our labor".
I do agree. My only problem is that the examples we see of ones we collectively label 'spiritual' do not display these qualities. We can easily see ego in others. I wonder why it is so hard to see it in our own words and actions. Especially if one claims to be spiritual.
The most defining characteristic of the spirit of God is truth. This would include the truth about what love actually is.
Jesus said that he is love. And he said that he fully represented God the father. Must be love too...
Let the record show... he ate up a bunch of teasing children, killed to cross his points, required death sacrifice, flooded the world and rained fire on some ugly cities. Is that love Emile???
He did it to show how he feels about sin. He loves purity. Cleanliness.
He sent Jesus to cover in cleanliness, making all things "white" again. Underneath the cover, you are white, hidden, accepted, justified, and advocated for.
Outside of the cover, all things ugly to the father.
He wants all his children underneath the cover. So, like a really good shepherd, he herds them in. But some of the sheep run at top speed in the opposite direction. Then, the dogs are sent out...
He will do what he can to save all the sheep. But he will not force them in. They must come willingly.
I'm a dog...
I wouldn't know where to start with a rebuttal. If that is your idea of love I'd hate to see hate.
There's no point in going into all the reasons you are wrong. You obviously don't want to see it.
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