I normally pay no attention to religious discussions. Partially because people tend to loose their minds when the "R" word is mentioned. However, due to recent attention from the media on religious people who make fools of themselves by way of ridiculously over zealous beliefs that make absolutely no sense to anyone and are contradictory to proven fact, I have been more curious, and have started looking at a few. I have noticed a strange trend...
People who have beliefs, and people who do not, please tell me if you have noticed an influx of people who conveniently ignore factual information to make their beliefs sound better.
Why do they do this? Fear? Righteous anger? Attention? Pure ignorance?
Can anyone give me examples of quality religious discussion that doesn't obviously contradict fact, while making valid arguments and posing legitimately intelligent questions about the reality of our world and the variety of faiths that reside in the minds of humanity?
Please also tell me that some of you understand that ancient religions, now known as myths, were ways people explained how the world worked in the absence of science. Truly where do people still hold in their hearts that Zeus still resides atop Mount Olympus while Poseidon controls how the seas operate?
In 1,000 years, when science has grown beyond our current imaginations, will today's religions be regarded as myths too, and studied in grade school English classes?
Bottom line is, I don't care if you are religious or not, but I cannot be the only person who sees people really making a bad name for religion, while trying to bash science like they would try to break a brick wall with their face.
Please, no "Science rules all" or "You need God" posts, this is not the place to advocate your beliefs. This is a discussion about the conduct and intellectual capacity for people who are receiving too much attention, as well as to analyze the drift in belief systems in response to ever increasing scientific and technological advancements.
Regions tend to last two to four thousand years before they run their course. Christianity is dying.
That said, it will likely never completely disappear. There are still Zoroastrians, people who believe in the Germanic and Norse gods, the Greek god's, etc. Some current day pagans still believe in all the gods. There are still those who believe the earth is flat.
But the logical mind is evolving, and with it the understanding that belief itself is a problem and unnecessary.
But all things evolve, and man kind has a long way to go before the masses have truly logical minds
Sir, your plea for good sensible discussion seems to have fallen on deaf ears. It was a reasonable question and held some truth. Speaking from outside of your country, I see an increase of irrational, unreasonable, superstitious belief systems that try to deny others who might have a scientific explanation.
Why this is so, I do not know either. I feel it does not bode well for the political and military stability of our world, because the religious mind wants total control...... and will probably get close to it.
You're right - the question is sensible and reasonable. The problem, in my opinion, for the lack of answers is that those who "believe" do not practice either sensibility nor reason when it comes to their faith.
That is not to say they are not wonderful people who contribute in a positive way to society, just that they do not use any scientific methods to judge their faith.
I guess that's why they call it "faith," because it transcends logic.
There is always such a mess when ppl loose their minds. Let's all agree to keep them right where they are.
I think people become fanatical, to the point of hysterics, because they feel threatened. Christianity teaches that you're not to consider, or even listen to, any other beliefs (Commandments 1 and 2). Doing so will result in spending an eternity in hell. So some Christians try hard to convert others to their way of thinking, and vehemently defend their belief system when challenged in the slightest. If science proves them wrong, it freaks them out, because they now have to completely reconstruct their world, and they don't know where to start.
It is common for them to believe that those who are not accountable to an all-powerful, all-knowing deity have no morals. However, the laws of cause and effect apply to everyone, regardless of their belief system. If you touch a hot stove you'll get burned, whether or not your parents are there to watch you.
Religions are designed to explain how best to live in this world, and to explain the unexplainable. In various countries, people have come up with a variety of belief systems. One is just as valid as the other. As we travel, and scientific discoveries increase, we need to adjust our belief systems. That's all there is to it.
I have made rational scientific points regarding the value of the various religions on numerous hubs and forums. In particular that 99.9' of art, culture, architecture,philosophy, law,ethics, science, math etc has irrefutably evolved out of religions.
On the other hand the new "scientific" weapons provided to both a few theist AND atheist groups is the real threat ( see "nuclear weapons" plus modern armaments). Pollution also is a result of gross materialism serving the mainly atheist gods of money.
A lot of historic art centers around religion, perhaps closer to 40% than 99%, but it's still a lot. Philosophy, which studies life's origins and purpose, will naturally consider religion and other types of superstitionism. But there is no evidence that the first laws evolved out of religion. There is ample evidence that the 10 Commandments were copied from the earlier Code of Hammurabi, which was not religious. As time went, religious societies DID make laws around religion, but those were some of the worst laws humanity has seen and they lead to many a so-called witch or heretic being tortured and then killed. That's nothing to be proud of.
Math was first seen in hunter-gatherer societies and then in nearly every other society as it progressed. The people of Babylonia were almost certainly cult-minded but there is no evidence that the belief system was intermingled with their religion.
Pollution is the result of carelessness. It has nothing to do with religion or not. For years, however, those who beat children or abused animals did so because they felt they were given that authority by God.
Truman claimed that God, Himself, gave us atom bomb technology.
So while some of what you say is true when considering that religious people brought us the start of many things, you fail to understand that those people were superstitious - but that superstition did not - itself - contribute to the progress. The greatest scientific minds (Einstein- Galileo) were hindered - not helped by religion. How much sooner could people have understand that the world was not flat - had the Church not opposed Galileo?
Religion is falling away. It's usefulness is nearly over.
we have to acknowledge that there are conservatively more than 2 Billion Hindus (India, Asia), one billion or more Buddhists, perhaps a billion or more Indigenous people following their own religions, a billion Muslims, a billion or more Christians etc. etc. I will be happy to proved accurate figures if desired, but you get the picture. Most of the planet's population follows (or is a part of) some kind of religion!
One the other hand the main type of atheism exhibited online represents a handful of what I describe as Seinfeld-café atheists. A paltry number.
Please don't forget the struggling Indigenous people around the world whose religions are vital to their very survival. Have empathy with them. OK?
You are correct in that there are still billions who ascribe to a religion. No one is not sympathetic to that.
However, there is still a growing trend AWAY from religion. First, it comes in moderating tenets. Christians no longer burn witches or drown them. Inquisitors for the Church no longer pull fingernails in order to get confessions. Those who once would have been aghast at the idea of abortion - now support pro-choice candidates. All the strings that once made people dance - are gradually being cut and people are free to choose not to follow religion. Gays can marry and adultery is no longer a punishable crime in Western nations. Sure, Islam is still a bit behind, but even the majority of Muslims now denounce the acts of ISIS, which, 200 years ago, would have been revered.
Religion is NOT vital to survival, so I don't know where you came up with that. Your stats and numbers have - so far - been incorrect, but if you can provide factual ones, as you claim, I'd be happy to look at them.
Religion is dying out. Sure, it'll still be around for many, many years, but it's losing its power.
And - thank God for that.
There is only so much one can debate about when it comes to religion with facts. You cannot debate with facts that Jesus is the Son of God because He isn't a fact. He is the truth but cannot be proven with empirical evidence. One can declare Jesus as the Son of God, even though it is the truth, but don't expect atheists to be impressed because facts and science is all they pay attention to. The supernatural doesn't exist to them.
Claire, you know that I respect you as a person and have learned that your personal beliefs are indelible, so I can only say here that your statement "The supernatural doesn't exist to them" simply fits with your beliefs. This sort of unquestionable argument answers with its own incredulity.
"Supernatural" cannot be discerned by the "natural," otherwise all and each of us would be able to discern it equally. If you say that you can in fact discern the Supernatural, then you will find no one who can verify your claim. Not even you can verify it to any one's satisfaction, so we can dismiss it as irrelevant to the discussion surely?
Yes, I suppose you can say it is irrelevant. I was just stating it. What I'm trying to say that if one wants all religious people to defend their faith with facts, then they are wasting their times. As I said, there are areas where one can discuss things with facts but in other areas there are not. So people must stop asking people for proof of God. It's not going to happen.
Thank you. An excellent point of understanding each other. Thus the atheist does not need to disprove the existence of god either. Each to his/her understanding and point of view in life. We walk on paths which are sometimes parallel, sometimes converging towards the center of Enlightenment, sometimes slipping back and diverging somewhat, while calling out for a little help along the way.
I have to agree with Say Yes to Life. While my foundation has been Christianity, I have taken the time over the last few years studying just about everything from one end to the other end just to understand other people's perspective. Cause and effect is there regardless of your beliefs and still damages others emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically.
Phil Zimbardo demonstrated through the Standford Prison Experiments and Good and Evil by Human Nature we can have different perspectives due to what stresses, experience, and beliefs we hold. No matter what side of the fence we can be evil or good according to who is looking at us from their angle. We can be the Villain or the Hero at the same time.
I feel their are a lot of deceptions and the wool pulled over our eyes also due to the fact people like to make a good buck!
I think we grow up in one small area of the world, grow up believing what we're told, and project that reality on to others. Which some beliefs come from what ever leader is projecting their beliefs on you.
We have different beliefs and mindsets in the social classes, and not saying that to start trouble, but it's truth. "The root of all evil is money. If you make money you're going to hell." By human nature if you think about how the mind works, people sabotage themselves because this is a belief. Of course they want to be obedient. And not sin. Then you have someone say It's sinful to be healthy and wealthy." I believe people have the right to believe what they do. I also understand it's probably not what the bible says that makes the world bad. What makes it bad is no one can have the same experience. No one can say they agree with another's experience or beliefs, because it's impossible as far as the brain is concerned.
The right side of the brain is imagination and creativity. There's a debate just over vision and visualization between business people, metaphysics, Christianity, etc. But yet it's the same exact thing. Imagination. And then a psychologist would say it's schizophrenia if you believe in Angels, ghosts, jesus, or whatever that is science. Religion says science is evil and of the devil if you listen to an extreme fundamentalist. This is where it becomes a problem when people experience what they do from whatever angle, and it's there personal truth. It's real for them in their experience and what they believe.
Whether it's imagination or real we can never know because it's the person in the experience that only knows. We can all read the same thing, look at a picture, and come up with different perceptions. And kind of like the viral dress right now. Some people believe it's gold and white and others black and blue. So whose to say what one experiences under certain stresses, situation, or circumstances.
For an atheist there is not God. This is his/her experience and belief. It is his truth. For a Christian this is his/her experience and belief. It his truth. Both real and valid for those individuals. And from being on the forums here before I know that you can argue and debate forever on both sides. People are passionate about their beliefs. And they have their reasons why they believe what they do.
There are so many perceptions on God world wide, and none of them are the same. And the conflict is there, and I suppose I'm not as naive as I once was as a child. Even though I was brought up In a christian town, I know mostly it's man's beliefs that gets us in trouble. Not necessarily what the holy text says, or whether there is a God or Not. Human Nature takes over, and there is a cause and effect and it doesn't matter whether you're the atheist or the Christian, you can't escape human nature to act out in a negative way or positive way according to what you believe and what you think is truth.
I have little use for religion in the usual sense and basing beliefs on faith is well outside my intellectual comfort zone. I can also say that I have no problem with someone who believes in God as a reasonable and rational consequence of knowledge of established science and properly applied logic. I also have no problem with atheists so long as they retain a modicum of humility in their discussions with non-atheists.
I do agree that fanaticism will often come to the fore when someone perceives their cherished beliefs as being challenged. BTW that observation isn't limited to "religious" types. Everyone has a personal philosopy whether they realize it or not. To some that philosophy will be both very personal and at the same time vulnerable. That's what's really in play IMO.
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