Little 3-year-old “Joel” was on his way home from Sunday school when Islamic terrorists ripped his children’s Bible from his hands and tossed it onto a burning pile. Joel ran after his Bible and tried to scoot it out of the flames with a stick. When one of the insurgents saw him, he shoved Joel’s head into the fire and held it down with his boot. “You stubborn infidel,” the man hissed.
Christians around the world face mistreatment, harassment and violent attacks because of their faith. Each year at Christmas, The Voice of the Martyrs joins with our readers to bless Christian children and Christian leaders with special gifts of encouragement. This year, Christmas Care is going global. VOM readers have the opportunity to sponsor Christmas Care Packs for kids and Village Outreach Packs for Christian leaders that will be distributed throughout the hostile and restricted nations where VOM works. Packs will be distributed in Nigeria, Iraq, India, China, Indonesia, North Africa, the Middle East and in other countries where Christians are persecuted.
You can give online to sponsor a Christmas Care Pack or a Village Outreach Pack at http://bit.ly/12zxdHR.
I have just been writing about Christian persecution around the world and its horrors. You have shown us more. This sounds like a great cause.
Voice of the Martyrs is a wonderful group that makes a great effort to minister to and support Christians being persecuted all over the world.
The thing that bothers me about this type of charity is that it is basically saying "We'll help you if you're one of us." Charities like UNICEF help all individuals in these types of situations and I consider that more of a true unconditional help. In the areas that were described, there are victims of persecution in all faiths. In Iraq and Africa, the majority of these victims are actually Muslim. In most parts of Africa, it's actually the Christian Militias doing most of the damage.
Edit: I looked the charity up on Charity Navigator and it only received 2 of 4 stars. Only 26.2 percent of the donations go to meeting the needs of the individuals the charity claims to help.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.c … orgid=4700
For comparison, 91.1 percent of donations to Unicef make it to the people.
I am not sure why your first response is to criticize.
AA is an organization that set out to help "their own kind." As a matter of fact, that's how organizations usually start. Someone sees a need and tries to minister to that need. Whether it be battered women, animal abuse, or gambling addiction. I started a non-profit myself a few years back, b/c I saw a need and it was on my heart to take action. There is no limit to the amount of help that can be offered in the world today.
According to the link you provided, VOM raised $22,238,938 (59.1%) for ppl suffering religious persecution (an amount those suffering did not have before they made this concerted effort.) In order for them to do that, they spent $9,985,693 (26.5%) on fundraising, and paid a staff, $5,407,377 (14.4%) in order to see both tasks accomplished. Life works like this. For "accountability and transparency" they were given a score of 93, or 4 out of 4 stars.
This was a story about a little boy who is a face of religious persecution going on today.
If you want to give to UNICEF, you should most definitely give to UNICEF. I would encourage each of us to give something/anything to those in need.
If you look at the top, you'll see the results panel...
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.c … orgid=4700
That shows that 37.8 percent of the money goes towards newsletters and their website... the remaining 26.2 percent actually goes to people.
In short, propaganda gets most of the money that is actually not spent on advertising and to pay for staff and such.
So, in short, they really aren't helping too many people... which is why the bad score on finances.
But, like I said, if you want to only help your own kind... fine. It just doesn't seem all that Christian... but anyway. Others that might see this advertisement and feel the pull of the heart-strings might want to look at the numbers before donating... perhaps choose a charity that is a bit more efficient with their funds.
I mentioned UNICEF because it does the same work, but far, far more funds (91% vs 26%) go towards helping people.
You should definitely give to UNICEF. Im sure good would come of that.
I do. I run any charity I give to through charitynavigator to make sure I'm not being scammed though...I like helping people more than helping administrations. I encourage anyone giving a gift to search the charity first and give where the money will do the most good.
It's a good idea. Having been the president and founder of a 501(c)(3), I know that it is harder for newer org. starting out. For instance, when I was a kid, we all ran around raising money for UNICEF. We'd bring those little boxes around and raise money for them, then bring it back to school. If you think about it, what an amazing thing, to have children raising money for your cause. It's awesome, for the cause and for the children to learn the importance of giving. But how many public schools are going to say, "Hey kids, there are Christians all over the world, being thrown in fires, and prison, b/c they want to worship Jesus but the law enforcement in their villages are maiming, arresting and killing them for it. Will you help us raise money for this cause?"
When your organization is newer, you have to do a lot of publicizing to allow ppl to know who you are/what your cause is. It's not an easy task and it can take years before you become established. UNICEF was established in 1946, so it's had some time to become what it is today. As they say, "91% of every dollar raised goes to children." There are many org's you can give to though... ones that may be even more effective than UNICEF (http://www.thelifeyoucansave.org/Where- … 7AodkgEAzw). If it were me, I wouldn't hinder anyone from giving any amount to any upstanding organization, as it is an individual choice where our money should go. I guess I should not be surprised that this would turn into some kind of debate thread, but I am a little disappointed. It's good for ppl to be aware of ppl's situations that they may not otherwise, hear much about.
This charity is almost half a century old, I don't think it qualifies as a "new" charity. It is, in fact, only 11 years younger than UNICEF.
In short, the ill financial operation is likely going to continue.
I don't feel this is a worthy organization at all, but I'm not hindering anybody from anything. In addition, people should be aware of the situation, yes. But this isn't making them aware of any situation. It's picking a very, very small percentage of persecuted people and "helping" them because they are Christian... and ignoring vastly larger numbers of others just because they don't agree with you.
It is also using charitable donations to further a political cause... Christians have a vested interest in being persecuted, it's a political rallying cry. Perhaps that's why so much of the money of this charity is spent on websites and newsletters rather than on helping people.
So do you think Martin Luther King was wrong for focusing on the civil rights of African Americans? Does that bother you, too?
Till such ghastly acts will continue, man will not understand religion in a real sense. Brutal mutilation of Joel, a beautiful kid, shows evil and not religion of the oppressor. Nobody is religious if one is devoid of love inside. The world needs love and not devout Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and so on. What kind of religion we follow if we commit murders and hate people -- even the innocent kids !
Hello, I feel that you may be confused. Joel is the Christian that was thrown into the fire. Christianity teaches us to love one another, to use mercy and forgiveness.
Beth, you know that's really not true. This thread is an example of that. This thread makes it apparent that Christians only care about burned three year old boys if they share the same faith. And that it is OK to create burned three-year old boys by sending religious materials into areas where they are outlawed because as long as it is in the name of "recruitment" it is God's will and must be good. And that it's fine that of each dollar donated that burned three year old boys get about 23 cents... and that is used to send more religious materials (to create more burned 3 year olds), school supplies for children who have no schools, and personal grooming products for children who have no running water.
And you will never understand why it makes me angry at the Christian faith... and why I have trouble embracing members of my own faith because of it. I'll just be accused of having a sharp tongue and not loving my fellow Christians like the Bible says.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't believe this matter could be any more twisted in your mind if you tried, and you certainly appear to be trying very hard to twist it.
This little boy should be allowed religious freedom. He should be allowed to walk down the street with any book in his hands without being thrown in a fire by an official. And if there is a non profit dedicated to helping him and shedding light on his story, then they should be allowed to do their level best to aid him. It is more than you or I are doing, sitting at home in America, on our butts this morning. So more power to them.
You feel you should make the laws of other countries. Do you also feel they should make yours?
Ever hear of "Do unto others as you would they do unto you"?
The lengths... the lengths to which you will go to make wrong seem right and right seem wrong.
This was an innocent little boy who was THROWN INTO A FIRE! Do you understand that this is wrong no matter what country he lives in?
Yep. And probably against the law.
Which has nothing to do with you deciding you are the moral compass of the world, entitled to make laws for all countries.
"This little boy should be allowed religious freedom."
"He should be allowed to walk down the street with any book in his hands without being thrown in a fire by an official."
You can't even do these things in the US; better tend to your own country first.
This is the face of Christianity where Joel is from Beth. He is part of a mob that killed and ATE a Muslim.
This is the Christianity that you are supporting.
here's the story.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
So the Christians that killed and ate a Muslim and are inciting religious violence in Africa aren't "true" Christians - but those are the Christians that the charity you cited are calling martyrs and sending aid to and asking support for. Which is it? I find it difficult to reconcile that it can be both.
It's that stubborn belief that Christians are blameless and good and everyone else is wicked. Most Christians aren't even aware of what monstrosities are being committed by members of their faith in other parts of the world. They just see a "save the child" type of message and give blindly. They simply cannot fathom that they are supporting the real persecutors. Anyone who mentions it is accused of not being a real Christian or attempting to twist things.
In this case, Bible verses are thrown in an attempt to "shame" that person into shutting up.
Most Christians I've come across in privileged areas like the US (where they are most definitely NOT being persecuted) and Europe provide pleas to help those in "less fortunate" areas where persecution abounds, while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the fact that a) many Christians in those areas are the ones doing the persecuting and only suffering retaliation from those who they are attacking and b) are supporting a system that encourages more persecution on religious grounds. The VOM takes pride in the fact that it creates more opportunities for martyrdom by sending missionaries and materials into areas where doing so is illegal - therefore knowing that the people they send, if caught, are going to be the new poster children for religious persecution.
That being said, I do not think it's right or just to torture, kill or cannibalize someone for their beliefs. It's wrong. But I also know that I don't get to make the rules for foreign countries, and that not every country in the world enjoys the freedom of speech and freedom of/from religion that I do. It is not my right to impose what I think is right or wrong on them, nor is there any reason whatsoever for them to bow to my opinion on their actions. I know, as a human being, that if I travel to a foreign country and break the law, even on accident, that I am subject to that law and its repercussions. That is even MORE true if I go to a foreign country and intentionally break the law by distributing religious material that has been deemed illegal. Does that make their law fair or just? No. But I suffer the consequences of that choice, should I break that law - and I have no one (let me repeat - NO ONE) to blame for those consequences but myself. The legal systems in countries around the world may not be what we deem right or fair, but it's not our place to dictate that. It doesn't matter one bit if we agree with them or not - if you break the law, you will get punished if you are caught - and in many areas around the world that often means torture or death - and there's not a damn thing that you can do about it sitting on your privileged rear in the United States. Sending a Bible to someone sitting in jail for proselytizing or carrying a Bible in a country that has deemed through their own justice system that such a thing is illegal is NOT HELPFUL. In fact, it is encouraging breaking the law AGAIN, which also carries punishment and repercussion. Why is that so difficult to understand, and so surprising that people get thrown in jail - or worse - for it?
You stated that much more eloquently than I did and I agree completely. I agree that religious freedom and philosophical freedom are great ideals... however putting people at risk to further that agenda, no matter how wonderful it is, is not worth it. Especially when it is completely ineffectual and, in fact, creates more tension.
It's not going to matter to anyone JM. Let's send them more Bibles, it will make everything better.
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Beth, how do you think God would feel about you using his word to engage in petty bickering and try to win an argument?
I've read the Bible. That tactic doesn't seem like anything Christ would do.
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of believers..."
The "god" being the massive ego of some believers, thinking only they can possibly be right.
2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Book of Wilderness: Scripture is quoted for the use of man, and is profitable for building ego and attempts to show right where there is none. Quotations must always be questioned, both for veracity and for purpose.
Using scripture to attempt to shame someone is a classic Christian tactic in organized religion. It's why weaker members of the congregation don't speak up for their beliefs. It's how cults are formed. *Shrugs* I'll admit it's annoying... but I'm not sure Christ would approve of using the tactic. He never struck me as a "don't stand up for what you believe in because others will judge you" kinda guy.
It's hard to know you are wrong if you stick your fingers in your ears every time someone says something you don't like.
Beth, it's time to get your head out of the clouds and get a grip on life.
Of all the beauty here on earth that I love, my favorite is a bright blue sky with fluffy white clouds. Yes, I know you weren't speaking literally, but a "head in the clouds" is such a wonderful thing in a multitude of ways!
So, I guess you will love flying in a jet airliner, way above the white fluffy clouds, brilliant blue overhead, keeping you above the silly heathen antics of people way there down below.
This is NOT the face of Christianity, and not anything Sed-me supports. Murder and torture is of the evil one, not of God. God is love and those who walk in love show that they know and understand God.
First of all, that is a meme, it's not "the face of Christianity." And the story Melissa is talking about is found here... http://www.news.com.au/world/brekkie-wr … 6801088417
The man was a cannibal... I don't know what Christian sects they have where you live Melissa, but Christian Cannibals are not found in any reputable church in my state. Give me a break.
Yes Beth, I'm trying to twist it.
As a by the way, do you have any idea why Christians are being "persecuted" in Africa (where "Joel" appears to be from?) Do you understand that Christians are the ones killing Muslims wholesale over there? Do you get that seeing a Bible over there is the same as a Jew seeing a Swastika in 1942 Germany?
Do you really not get this?
Violence against Christians is retaliatory in Joel's part of the world.
This charity isn't helping Joel, it's sending useless items as a front to spread Christian propaganda in countries where the vast majority of those being killed aren't Christian. It's fanning the flames and getting more people killed. But that's fine as long as you are spreading God's word, right?
Do you seriously not understand why this disgusts me?
And if he had been carrying a copy of the Qur'an, no christian should deter him, right?
If a so-called Christian acted against the Lord and burned him for carrying a Qur'an, the tragedy would be multi-faceted.
Why can't you simply support "Religious Freedom," CAT? Instead of beating about the bush?
I agree we should have religious freedom. I don't necessarily think we should be controlled in ways meant for our good in earthly matters either - the wearing of helmets on motorcycles, taxes on unhealthy items, etc.
When we share the good news with you, we are not attempting to force you into anything, but awaken you to truth and goodness, which is found in the Lord.
Well done. You have shown us the source of such religious bigotry the world over.
You who sit up there on your neat and tidy, safe pedestals......
At the feet of Jesus, lifted up... I wouldn't call it a pedestal, but it's definitely safe, even in the most dangerous of circumstances!
Always so much resentment being expressed at us feasting with the Lord. Yet there's room for all and anyone who is hungry and thirsty can come and feast as well.
Oh no Johnny. If he had the Koran or any other text in his hand, a terrorist should have the right to torture him in any way possible.
I am so sick of this garbage.
Why is everything in your mind Christian = bad and Atheism = good?
I saw something from an organization that is quite meaningful to me and I copied and pasted it to bring attention to "religious persecution today." If you have a problem with that, it is your problem, but a reasonable person knows that to take care of the downtrodden is the right thing to do. Do you want me to tell you of all the ppl I gave to this week? Well Im not going to, that's gross. I believe in doing good. If you believe in doing good too, GREAT! The more ppl doing good, the better. This thread has hosted the stupidest debate this forum has ever seen, but I still wouldn't change my mind about posting the op, b/c it was informative and enlightening and meant with nothing but good intentions.
Dear friend, I'm not confused at all. Is my statement vague ? I felt the pain of Joel as I would have felt that of my own child. Before we are brought into any religion, we are same at the time of our birth. There is no Christian pain or Muslim Pain or the like. As humans, we feel the same pain. What I wanted to convey is that we all should feel the suffering of humanity irrespective of religions/ sects, and at the same time condemn the crimes whosoever commits it, be they Christians, Muslims, Jews and so on. I fail to understand why as progressive people, we are hesitant to embrace the concept of " Humanity". Why are we bent on segregating one another in the name of religions or sects. If we go on fighting like this, tell me, what is the purpose of UNO ? As international community, we should help not only our own people but the other streaks of suffering humanity also. With all respect to adherents of faith, this is my personal outlook. You can criticize me or oppose me but you can't say that I do not feel the pain and trauma of the victims like such innocent faces as that of a very pretty Joel. My heart goes to him and I wish him all happiness, love and bright future.
Then we are on the same page, b/c my hope is that Joel will get the help he now needs too. I don't really care what group gives him help, whether it be UNICEF, VOM, World Vision... it just so happens that a group that focuses on persecuted Christians is trying to minister to Joel, so... that's all that matters to me, that he's getting help.
Thank you for sharing this. It is too evil for words. It is an unspeakable horror to do that to a 3 year old just trying to get his bible. Nothing short of that the bible is true, can explain such a thing. They are an organization I know only a little about, but have been impressed with what I do know. This is a good thread to remind us that it is going on, and to learn of a group that shares that these horrors are even happening when so many wouldn't know otherwise. That alone makes it worthy of support, but its really the least of the reasons. Surely, you sharing this will help people to go and check out the site at least, to see what is going on. I think a lot of people have no idea.
My heart breaks at this story, and the amazing truth it shows, but that even so, some still won't see it. May God open the eyes of those that might ever want to see or know him, even just a little bit. This is my prayer. (I mean, besides the prayers for the persecuted. They know full well and first hand, exactly what is going on.)
You always touch me with your succinct precision, and I really appreciate the God in you.
I'm not a donater. And maybe I shouldn't say that aloud, but I'm mostly broke, for now.
I love the idea. But...
I am quickened by the thought of people dying for the kingdom of God. Seems surreal.
I know the bible says, thus and so... but DANG!!!
I feel that soon, there will be a massacre of God's children here, in free America.
The hate is growing. Killings are in the process of desensitization. People, (among the fold) are hissing...
I've got my sword...
Yes the hate is growing, and its awful. All I can suggest to stick closer than ever to what is true. I would study, sticking close to the word of God. I think we won't ever regret that, and it will help so much no matter what happens.
How is this Islamic follower different than the Christians, who chanted praises to Jesus around the camp fire as a witch, screaming in agony, was burning to death? Depending on your source this happened over 300.000 times. Perhaps, it would be good if, before one condemns another, in the name of a god, to understand the barbaric history of what you yourself believe.
I would condemn such an act, as on this innocent child, in the name of common decency, not in the name of a religion or the bbelief in a god that has done worse.
Condemn it, don't condemn it... do whatever you please. This was a thread to bring attention to a group of ppl who were being attacked for their beliefs. If you don't want to help... just be on your way.
Christians attacked and killed millions for their beliefs. Do not be the hypocrite and promote one god over another as both beliefs are nightmares.
If you want to be helpful appeal to common sense and not to the gods, otherwise you perpetuate an ignorance that fosters such atrocities.
There are many religious only forums that you may visit where the choir is always listening and in agreement.
Christ NEVER attacked, and killed anyone. Christians who follow him, do not either. Is it hard to fathom because people like the idea of "Dirty Harry Christians?
People who kill by direct order of God/Jesus are liars with bald faces. we cannot make him responsible for that.
He said to learn of him. But people are doctoring up many understandings.
Wow! I'm pretty new to Hubpages, but is this the norm?
The initial post was about a Christian child that was burned. Then all of the sudden the hatemongers came out with claws open. I mean, I get it that all people should be treated with respect, but the topic was about religious persecution. The child was being persecuted for her religion, therefore her religion was stated? I don't get all of the negative comments. I have not been around many atheists, but I am not getting a good impression here.
That's so sad that a child would be treated so badly for any reason. How can people say they are God's people, and treat another human this way?! Poor little guy
Thanks for informing us and encouraging people to help, Sed-me!
"Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." Galatians 6:10
Thanks Cat. Im really glad there are varying support groups for those most in need. That's the thing ppl would ask me when I started mine. They'd say, "Why do you want to raise money for _____ when so and so is also raising money for _____. Id tell them the difference between what we were doing and what others were doing, but I would also wonder aloud how it could ever be anything but good to raise money for those in need. The more organizations making an effort, the better.
Honestly, because it is sending Christian literature into areas where it is illegal... If the people being "helped" are caught with it, they will likely be arrested and possibly beaten or killed. So actually, the charity is probably the cause of additional persecution... but whatever.
For every person who gives money, (a relatively easy writing of a cheque, or punching a few things into a bank account on-line), I wonder what proportion would gladly go next door to physically, personally, help the person who was being persecuted for being: a prostitute; Muslim; a person with homosexual preference; bankrupt; down on their luck; a man being repeatedly beaten by his wife; a baby that was being beaten by his/her big sister......
Real live effective giving entails a willingness to step out of the cosy safe nest you have built for yourself. "Giving to charity" allows you to remain in that nest... no worries!
The person you all claim to worship and follow took this notion of "giving" to the extreme of discomfort.
Well done Melissa, for putting the other side of the story. In many cases around the world, the arrogant presumption that being christian is better actually leads to conflict and turmoil. The idea that christian is better than muslim (lower case intentional to indicate no bias), or visa versa, is the cause, but it takes two to tango.
PS... sorry to have done the usual Jonnycomelately thing here, coming in so long after the thread started.... I have not even read beyond the second page yet.... have been too busy actually, physically, personally working for a charitable cause.... not going to tell you what, that's a secret.
Good points about giving in a meaningful, sacrificial way. All giving for good is good, and we can't really judge the heart of anyone who gives, especially since that which doesn't seem sacrificial to us may in fact be so (those without money are giving sacrificially when they write a check), but you are right that the best giving is concerned (often involved) and sacrificial.
Sed-me, your heart is golden.
The picture that you posted is an attention grabber. And my prayers are with the persecuted.
The crap we see here, is NOTHING in comparison. Sure, it's annoying to be persecuted at every turn. But we wrestle not against flesh and blood. It was promised that there would be "flies". So, we press toward the mark. And we do what the father has laid on our hearts to do.
May the Lord fix their books, if necessary, and flood their gates with assistance for the children of God, through your testimony.
It is truly something we cant comprehend, to hurt to the extremes that they hurt, all for their love and devotion to God. They are heroes.
I'm grateful to hear that they do have some help. The torture of children is top notch ugly. But these are the times we live in.
The Lord will repay. But he promised us these things. I wonder how long before the U.S. starts its Christian killings. But I'm in no hurry.
Richard Wurmbrand founded the international organization Voice of the Martyrs.
When the government attempted to control churches, he immediately began an "underground" ministry to his people. Richard is remembered for his courage in standing up in a gathering of church leaders and denouncing government control of the churches. He was arrested on February 29, 1948, while on his way to church services...
During his imprisonment, he was beaten and tortured. Psychological torture included incessant broadcasting of phrases denouncing Christianity and praising Communism. His body bore the scars of physical torture for the rest of his life. For example, he later recounted having the soles of his feet beaten until the flesh was torn off, then the next day beaten again to the bone
In 1966, Wurmbrand testified before the Internal Security Subcommittee of the US Senate about the treatment that Christians received under Communist governments, raising world-wide interest in Christian persecution, and through his influence several missions were founded around the world to help support Christians who suffered under Communist persecution. After the fall of communism in the Soviet Union and eastern Europe, these missions expanded their focus to include those suffering religious persecution in Islamic, Hindu, and Buddhist societies.
In the 20th century, Christians have been persecuted by various groups, and by atheistic states such as the USSR and North Korea. During the Second World War members of many Christian churches were persecuted in Germany for resisting the Nazi ideology. Hitler expressed a desire to destroy the influence of Christian churches within the Third Reich, seeing it as absurdity and nonsense founded on Jewish lies. He planned to do this after the war, and not during it, believing "that suited his immediate political purposes".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio … oc_nations
Books, among others- My Answer To The Moscow Atheists
We should warn our children about the same mentality that imprisoned and tortured Mr. Wurmbrand, still exists today. It is alive and well and just as evil. Warn your children, warn your grandchildren.
Thanks for sharing this. As for Richard, the founder, I am sure he would be glad to know more and more people are learning about his mission that he founded. People are going through so much, and just knowing that some will make their voices be heard, can mean so much. That some might pray would mean even more, or give, even more than that.
Ideas do matter. What people act on and why matters, but this seems to be a very cut and dry case of good vs. evil, in its many forms. Including all of the many twisted forms of it.
You say later to warn our kids and grand children. This world is getting crazier by the day it seems. I know as the kids grow up, they can see this for themselves. What is interesting though, is seeing what people do with the truths of these matters. One can observe a cause and effect, (in multiple facets), and any can see the twists and distortions which serve to ultimately cause more hurt and pain. I think of Pastor Saeed.... I pray that people might wake up, and see the failings of their own world views if they have to imprison and keep someone like that, or even hurt or kill them on occasion. Or support it in any way, shape or form.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
In my eyes, that seems to be what you are doing now.
Deja vu? On the bright side, isn't it nice to know there are areas in your life where you can count on consistency? Your quotes are appropriate. Remember, Paul had one too. Amazing to watch. Don't take the ban bait, (I know you've been down that road before).
There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Actually, Jesus used scripture when dealing with Satan.
“Be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the Devil’s schemes.” Eph 6:10-11
Does not Satan use scripture when dealing with God?
Scripture can be used for anything, by anyone. Whether for good or bad, right or wrong. And it can most definitely be used by those pretending to be godly while spreading discord or wishing to control others.
Matt. 7:12: So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
If you don't wish to live under Sharia law, do not try to coerce others to live under your law.
My understanding is that it is an accepted fact that Satan will quote holy scripture to convince others (God's children) to do or believe as he wishes. Am I mistaken?
Apologies. Does this also mean that the old fables that Satan cannot touch a cross, sing a hymn or speak the word "Lord" are also incorrect?
I had no idea God had so limited Satan as to be unable to even speak as he wished. Perhaps Satan is not nearly as powerful as we thought - perhaps it is man, not Satan, that brings about their own downfall.
I do not mean this disrespectfully, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
Again, it would be great if we could focus on the topic.
LOL I didn't think we were communicating very well either.
Very well - I will happily drop the subject if you will...until you again post platitudes from the bible indicating that anything Christians want is right and proper, that anything else is wrong and evil.
Satan certainly uses the Word of God, but only to twist God's words, pervert them, and attempt to convince us they say something other than what they do. That's his role as liar and murderer. There is no truth in him and his ways lead to death. He confuses and deceives, and his followers (often unknowingly) do likewise.
So... in this scenario you are Christ and I am Satan?
O.K. Well, that's not at all judgmental. Glad to know that we can have a reasonable conversation about differing perspectives.
You threw reasonable conversation out the window on page one when you decided a little boy, thrown into a fire was a debatable subject.
As far as Christ and Satan... if you want to twist yet another statement, do so. It doesn't mean anything to me anymore. Your words are on your head. I can't help you.
Yeah, I don't do the "you're a horrible person" emotional guilt trip. I know I'm not. I also know that none of the verses you threw at me applied to me. I also don't fear my words being on my head. If I didn't stand by them, I wouldn't say them. I am not emotionally manipulated Beth, mainly because I am well aware when it is being attempted.
With that being said, if you don't want something to be debated, don't put propaganda up on a public forum.
I find it interesting how you are able to turn any and every subject into another opportunity to put on a show. We all know you are a strong and feisty woman who doesn't take no ____ from anyone. Got it. Now, if we could get back to religious persecution today... that would be awesome.
but in turn, you're twisting what SHE said.
She never said that little boy deserved to be thrown into a fire, and you know it. She questioned the charity that you were promoting, by accurately stating that only 23 cents on every dollar they raise goes to actually helping someone. Does that, in your mind, indicate that she's okay with that little boy being thrown into a fire? Should transparency of a charitable organization indicate that it's okay to brutalize someone? Can you point to one single instance where ANYONE has said that what happened to that little boy was okay? I think we both know the answer to that question.
What Melissa did was point out that the percentage of money that your charity actually GIVES is relatively low in comparison to other charitable organizations. She also pointed out the dangers in supporting a charity that goes out of the way to CREATE the martyrs that it then supports - by sending illegal materials and missionaries into areas where being caught will result in violence, torture and possibly death. How sending aid in the form of food, medical supplies, etc. is much more useful in these third-world countries than sending religious tracts and bibles is. None of that justifies religious violence on the part of any belief system - Christian, Muslim or otherwise - and both of us then indicated that a little bit of research into what's happening in Africa is responsible.
I'm sorry if this turned into a discussion that you didn't want to have when you posted that story, but you could simply say that you didn't want to talk about it instead of twisting other people's words (which you don't seem to like if you think its been done to you) and quoting scripture at people. It's simply not possible to control open conversations like this, as you should remember from the last persecution discussion we all had.
But the little boy in the fire wasn't the topic. What action the people of the US should take is.
1. Should we take the child in, comfort and heal him?
2. Should we stop proselytizing in a nation with such a political/religious climate?
3. Should we eradicate all Muslims as evil child burners?
4. Should we encourage Christians there to eradicate all Muslims (wouldn't take much as they already are).
5. Should we throw money at the Christian sects there, forsaking all others to the ravages of war?
6. Should we send more missionaries to fan the flames of religious war?
What WE should do is the topic. So far your answer appears to be #5 and #6, coupled with a cry that our laws take precedence over any others.
What can we do? Those of us who pray, can pray. There is no greater gift we can give than to support others with the strength of God.
The possibilities are many. We can adopt children whose parents have been killed.
We can send resources, for those whose mothers and fathers have been imprisoned and have no way to provide for their families.
We could support doctors without borders and other amazing medical, charitable groups are doing.
We could go there, and offer love and assistance.
Imagine if this was your child or grandchild. What wouldn't you do?
All good answers, and not a single indication that help and succor should only go to Christians OR that further religious intervention is a desirable thing.
What happened? This does fit with the OP, nor with the insistence that we should make their laws for them.
As far as I can see, the purpose of the UN is to take resources and funding from those that have and give it to the nations that are unwilling to feed their people. To support, in other words, the nations that are more interested in killing each other than in growing and developing.
But then I'm rather disillusioned with the whole UN thing.
Well if you are not comfortable with a secular group watching out for the underdogs of mankind, then you surely are not going to be comfortable with religious groups doing so. I don't know what else there is to discuss.
It's not perfect, but right now it's our best source for humanitarian aid... and record keeping.
To provide Obama a career path opportunity after the US is quite fed up with him? Just guessing.
I think JM had a very valid point. It is impossible to predict what is going to happen when you purposely set out to change a culture. What we are seeing now is a result of that. So yeah, more proselytizing is probably a bad idea.
In the case of Africa, any relief money should go to all individuals affected by the war... in this case, the vast, vast majority of victims are Muslim. It seems cruel to ignore their situation while aiding the people who are hurting them. In this case, I believe secular charities and the U.N. are more capable of providing fair and effective aid.
I personally think that missionaries should be banned from such nations, for the safety of themselves and others.
Whereas you would prefer that they are encouraged to fan the war into additional killing. Or do you think that illegally sending missionaries will not encourage religious conflict?
Jesus said to them, `Go into every part of the world. Tell the good news to everyone.
I think God's word trumps man's. In case you were not aware, God is known, all throughout the world and has been for thousands of years.
If God is known all throughout the world, then mission accomplished. No need to endanger the lives of others to spread what has already been spread.
This thread was not intended for argument, let alone childish ones. If you do not believe that the gospel should be spread throughout the world, as Jesus instructed, then I think this conversation is also over. You're wasting our time.
HAGD then. I assume this means you are leaving the thread... right?
No, if you want to present yourself in this way... as a believer who does not believe in sharing the gospel, Christians helping those persecuted for their faith, or groups that support those who are being martyred, then continue to do so. If this is how you want to be known, then as I said, it is on your head, I can't help you.
I'm not asking for your help, Beth. I am secure in my faith and need neither your approval or your help with spiritual matters. I also disagree with the things that others do in the name of Christianity, but since I'm not God I recognize that it is my own damn problem. I, too, wish that they would not choice to present themselves in the ways they do. It truly, as I've explained, embarrasses me.
I feel the same way about them. Funny that.
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.
LMAO. You do realize that every verse you are posting, in my mind, is more fitting for your spiritual education than mine.
When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, The foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest.
I thought you wanted to stay on topic Beth. I will not get into scripture wars with you, my faith says it's wrong and abuse of the Word.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Any sane human being would be adamantly for the basic human rights of speech and thought, much more if those basic human rights were denied by violence. Instead there are those that try desperately to silence thought and speech. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The Word of God is satans worst enemy in regards to mankind.
I am for basic human rights, I'm just not for blindly flailing into a situation, making it worse, and causing more of those human rights to be denied... oh and death too. I also believe everybody should have those rights, not just Christians. In this case it is Christians, by and large, that are denying those rights.
I have asked you politely - several times - to never reply to my posts. I do not want to get into a situation where there are false accusations, made against me for simply replying to posts which could then be construed as "stalking or harassment" like others have dealt with here.
A false allegation can occur as the result of intentional lying on the part of the accuser; or unintentionally, due to a confabulation, either arising spontaneously due to mental illness.
Rage by a narcissist is directed towards the person that they feel has slighted them. This rage impairs their cognition, therefore impairing their judgment. During the rage, they are prone to shouting, fact distortion and making groundless accusations.
but they are already banned. There are countries where being a missionary and proselytizing are illegal. Do you think that missionaries should still go there, despite the risks? Are they not just asking for trouble when they intentionally go somewhere with the purpose of knowingly breaking the law? Are they not creating more people, who if converted, will then face torture and possible death? Should the cost of such acts not be considered before the West thinks that's a good idea simply to spread what many Christians think is the "true religion" to the exclusion of all else? What gives us in the west the right to decide that other people should agree with what some of us think is true, to the point that some of us are willing to risk not only our own violent end but the violent end of those we convinced we were right? Do you not see that as irresponsible?
But "the West" is not God. Missionaries do not "go" on behalf of "the West." They go on behalf of their God. Christians believe that suffering on this side of eternity is a price we sometimes must pay in order to bring the good news to the lost, who would perish without it.
The West isn't the only one that sends out missionaries. Gospel for Asia, another favorite ministry of mine, raises up only native missionaries. And there are countries who send missionaries here to us. Heaven knows, we are as blind as any country who lacks resources.
It is irresponsible, and many Christian groups have spoken out against it. The U.U. church has made it's stance very well known. If missionary work does more harm than good, it in no way glorifies God.
Secular aid is appropriate, although as Wilderness noted, not all that efficient. Other than military action against the Christian Militias, there's not a lot anyone can do.
Have you never read the word?
"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
Why do you assume these missionaries risk their lives? For Heavenly brownie points?
They are sharing the gospel so that souls that are lost will be saved.
That's what it's all about, Melissa!
If I hadn't read the Bible before, you've pretty much posted the whole thing today, so I think I'm good.
Saving souls is all well and good, but sending them to their final reward early isn't. I don't care if missionaries risk their lives breaking laws... I do have a problem with them deciding that it is fine for others to die for their beliefs.
It is never Christ-like to cause pain and death. Killing children to spread the gospel is not part of any Bible I've ever read... Well, OK it is, but it's not part of anything Christ ever said.
Edit: And yes, I think it is largely for brownie points.
Do not fool yourself anymore Melissa... do not fool yourself.
Beth, I have my relationship with Christ... you are not a part of it. Your judgments mean nothing to me and are insulting. I will not question my faith because YOU think I'm wrong. You are not my master.
Now, that being said, PLEASE stick to the topic.
No Beth, you aren't. You are attacking me because I disagree with you. The subject-now- is missionaries. Not whether I am fooling myself or not.
Oh,the subject *now is missionaries? 'Cause that is not the topic of this thread. That's what you've turned it into. I set a topic, *you are the one who couldn't stick to it. Are you the one who decides when we change subjects? Maybe you could just start your own anti threads, leaving mine free for the purpose that they were created.
Think about it though. What sense does putting eternal salvation ahead of earthly security make if you don't believe in hell, barely believe in sin and to whatever degree you do you believe you can make yourself free from it's penalty, don't believe you need salvation, which is good because you don't believe Jesus did or could provide it since He wasn't/isn't really God anyway?
I don't know, Melissa, I just don't know. What is happening there is emotionally crushing, but is there anything we can do to help? Give to the Muslims and the Christians will riot. Give to the Christians and the Muslims will riot. Give to both and both will riot. Plus, it won't matter how much we give as it will never be enough to make any difference. As long as the people there are more interested in killing each other than in growing and developing their country (and they are) it will be just another case of someone else feeding the masses while they riot.
Whatever we do, the killing will go on - it is the nature of religious wars. And make no mistake, this is another religious war. Not political, not over resources, it is religious. America, as a country, has found an answer to this in religious tolerance, but much of the world has not. Worse, many Americans have not either, continuing to insist that they have an edict to meddle in other countries and putting forth a large effort to do just that. Adding a blowtorch to the flames as they do.
Should all our resources go into education? But who will provide the teachers, teaching religious tolerance and risking their life to do so? We're left with throwing a few bags of food out there, feeding the rioters that then go on to kill some more.
I know. But what are you going to do? You can't let the suffering continue and you can't stop it. So you do the best you can I guess. You stand for what you believe in and let the pieces fall where they may.
Education would be great... but honestly until persons can be religious while governments remain secular, there are going to be such monstrosities. Persons can just punch each other in the nose when they fight about religion. Governments commit genocide.
But it doesn't work! We see in this thread "standing for what you believe in" by sending missionaries to fuel the fires of war. We see "standing for what you believe in" by ignoring the suffering of any not of the Christian persuasion. We see "standing for what you believe in" by eating the opposing religion.
This poor globe so desperately needs a way to tolerate others, and it just isn't there. It desperately needs to bring 3/4 of the globe into the 21st century, with food, water and education resources and it just isn't there. Instead we give a little food to a few individuals that believe as we do, and implicitly encourage the carnage to continue.
We've tried for decades to "help" others by feeding them, both in our own country and in others. We've tried political means, encouraging others to police themselves. We've even tried force, but the only thing we've ever accomplished either here or abroad is to make more people dependent on someone else. There's got to be another way. Somehow we either teach religious freedom coupled with a way to feed themselves or this will never end.
In this particular case, I really do think military action against the Christians is going to be the only solution... and trial for their war crimes. Otherwise, I'm at the same lost... I'm able to point out where things have gone awry and what we SHOULDN'T be doing, but I've got nothing on what we should do. I'm wondering if maybe we've already done too much.
I've been feeling pretty misanthropic lately, and this kind of thing is largely the reason. Ideally, Christians would stop their own from killing as would other religions... I'm not sure why that doesn't happen. I have -slight- hope that this bump is what happens when barbarians are pulled, kicking and screaming, into a world-inclusive culture. That this is the last hurrah, so to speak, but I'm jaded enough to doubt it.
Maybe take our resources and build heavily armed communes where we can.
I don't know, either, but am convinced that simply shoveling money, via living staples, isn't the answer. The only thing it accomplishes in the long run is exacerbating the problem.
Yeah, I'm not sure that's the answer either. Historically, the phrases "heavily armed" and "commune" when used together, doesn't have a happy ending.
The cynic in me says let them sort it out for themselves, the realist in me says keep our own people from causing any more harm and help the innocent with sanctuary and education, the idealist in me says to go take up arms and right all the wrongs. Problem is, everybody is wrong and ammo is expensive.
Did you, in all honesty, expect things to be different this time around? They will never change, until the Lord changes them.
Let me be clear.
No one, not a single person, is saying that what happened to this little boy is right or justified. It's horrific.
It's admirable that you want to help him, truly. That being said, however, it seems irresponsible to ask for help for this little boy without even pausing for a moment to investigate the circumstances that allowed what happened to him to happen in the first place. Two minutes of searching would have uncovered the religious WAR that is happening throughout much of Africa right now - and in large part it's caused by the missionary movement there. You have Western Missionaries going overseas and teaching people about Jesus, then leaving - and then looking on in shock and horror when extremism crops up. It's patently absurd. This is what happens when you go from a culture of privilege to one that is most certainly not, teach a message and then leave it unsupervised. It happened in the middle ages with Christianity and it's extremism (the crusades, the witch hunts, the inquisition) and it is repeating itself here today in Africa.
Look at the case of the Christian pastor who is one of the three responsible for the situation in Uganda. They went over spreading lies about how dangerous gays are - and Uganda tried (and failed, thankfully) to pass the "kill the gays" bill. It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's downright ignorant of what will happen when you spread that kind of message to superstitious people who know nothing about Western culture or advancements. That pastor is now facing "crimes against humanity" charges for his irresponsible actions - and pleading ignorance that his speech would incite such violent penalties. http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/ar … l?ID=15114 Is he being persecuted, do you think? Is he not a "true" Christian, spreading the word of God? Should he have the right to share his opinions overseas and have those opinions, in turn, be used to support executing gay people? Do you not see the danger in this type of mentality in regards to people who are so culturally different?
Sad, sad day when Christians harass Christians for being Christian.
He allows us to see with our own eyes; hear with our own ears...the truth...
Beth, your love for humanity always wins in the face of hatred of a differed sort.
Each of us who know God, and have accepted his spirit, are aware of Godly sounds. I am so sorry that now, the unsettled spirit of confusion is nipping at your heels, in public. Wow!!! There is no shame.
But time is running out. Time to confuse as many people as possible.
Gird your loins, Sweetie pie! The sword of the spirit; and the shield if faith are good weapons. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. This spirit is one of the ugliest ive seen in a long time. It almost leaves me speechless... I said almost.
We must test the spirit by the spirit. We know the voice of God.
I am so sorry you battle so early in the morning. But we must always be prepared. That "lion" is pacing double-time these days. ♡
Kind words, CG, thanks. You'd think it would be hard to find fault with an org. like VOM. But when Satan sees light being shown in the darkness, he freaks. Greater is He that is in us though...
I missed the part where Christians were harassing Christians. I'll go back and read it again.
Just one line taken from that BBC report linked to on page 4 of this discussion, says it all in relation to your version of religion, Cgenaea:
"Many of the Christian fighters we met - the anti-balaka - believe in magic." Such beliefs in magic are not confined to Africa.
And even if the devil is TOTALLY right this time (I guess he would know where the evil is, for sure) there is a way that God has... we know what it sounds like...
Even the spirit of confusion gets confused.
Well Sed-Me, let this be a lesson to you. Who do you think you are starting a thread drawing attention to religious persecution in the hopes of having folks consider what they might do to help? I hope you are seeing the error of your ways. If not, it's not for lack of effort on the part of many who seem to oppose your nefarious agenda!
Here's the thing. When I was a Christian and a Missionary, I was always much more angered over Christians persecuting other people than I was over Christians being persecuted. Before anyone tells me that was because I was never really a Christian in the first place, let me explain. The reasons are two-fold.
1. Christians killing, torturing or harming others in the name of Christ are essentially making it much more difficult for other Christians to reach people, in order to save souls for Christ. Not only that, but they are realistically sending people to hell - they're killing people for believing differently or incorrectly, and those people will never have the chance to accept Christ, because they've been killed by people who proclaim his name. It's all too easy to dismiss those Christians around the world as 'not true Christians' and to distance yourself from their actions - but regardless of whether you agree with them or not, they are quoting the same Bible and using it to justify their actions, and it's abhorrent. Yet I see very few Christians speaking out against them. They simply proclaim that they're not real believers, and distance themselves from their actions as quickly and as far as possible. That's not solving the problem. That's not making anything better. It's the same thing with Isis and Islam - more moderate Muslims need to publicly speak out against their actions and rise up against them, removing their power base and support. That's the only way this type of extremism is going to stop.
2. Christians who are persecuted (and here I mean ACTUALLY persecuted, which doesn't take place in the West) for their beliefs, who are thrown in jail, beaten, tortured or killed for proclaiming the word of God often make that decision for themselves. They willingly decide that the need outweighs the risk, and go boldly into countries where being a missionary, proselytizing the Christian message or even possessing a Bible is illegal. They understand the legal consequences of their decisions, and they decide to proceed. In addition, those who are persecuted for the sake of Christ are rewarded for their sacrifice in the afterlife. While what happens to them is not right, it is recognized in their eternity.
And I agree with all of that as well.
As a Christian, I am often outraged at displays of hatred, intolerance and violence in the name of Christ. Far more, I believe rightly, than those of other faiths/non-faiths are. It comes from the fact that these individuals are claiming to act in Christ's name, when I -obviously- feel they are doing a discredit to what he taught/stood for. I do believe that, in some ways, it is the responsibility of Christians to deal with these problems. Unfortunately, the faith is so disjointed and prone to in-fighting that there isn't really a possibility of this happening. Liberal Christians, for example, would never accept the rules of the fundamentalists and vice versa.
However, as humans, there comes a time when someone needs to step up and say "Stop it, you're making it worse." If people must die for my faith just so it can perpetuate, I want no part of my faith. Killing people, either intentionally or through blindsightedness, shouldn't be a part of any faith. That really does make religion dangerous and destructive. I didn't sign up for spreading love and faith by killing others. I don't know who would.
I'm not entirely sure that martyrdom for the sake of martyrdom opens the pearly gates. I don't think that purposely manufacturing your own suffering really makes a martyr... masochist possibly, zealot likely, attention-whore definitely. I think God chooses his own martyrs. I'm not sure that he would have selected any of the people currently under discussion.
melissa said: "As a Christian, I am often outraged at displays of hatred, intolerance and violence in the name of Christ."
So, you say you are bothered because this child is only being helped because she is a Christian, yet as a Christian it bothers you only when Christians are intolerant and violent? Shouldn't you be upset when anyone is violent and intolerant?
"yet as a Christian it bothers you only when Christians are intolerant and violent"
Where do you get that from her post?
Because I don't hear her complaining about other intolerance that makes her angry, such as the one the post is about.
By the way, it was a question and not a statement. That means I needed clarification if my presumption was correct or not. It was also a direct question to her, meaning that only she knows the answer.
Hello Biz. Glad to see you didn't have to wait long to get the feel for the forums. It won't get much better, but at least you will have a chance to rebut the foolishness of some, as long as you don't call them "foolish" which will probably get you booted off for a few days. Keep waiting for my turn but it hasn't happened yet.
Sed-me, thanks for sharing this story, but if there's validity to what MelissaBarrett is posting then you should investigate it and correct your article.
Stop calling her names using the scriptures in this vengeful manner that you're posting.
Just because something calls itself a charity doesn't mean that they're actually doing what we all expect them to do with the money they receive.
We should always carefully scrutinize who we're giving to.
We give out of compassion for suffering people, often children such as Joel.
And even though you have treasures in Heaven for your self sacrifice, your trust of such and such charity and of God, whereas the fault is with the charity unto God as to what they do with that trust, is it not much better to know that the broken are healed?
Stop being sassy, and quarrelling, and just do the right thing.
We should always seek the best option, and discard the discredited, and those of poor repute.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (KJV)
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Thing is, only what we do for Christ will last. When you care more for your life, you will lose it. When you lose your life for Christ; gain...
It is very unfortunate that even those who think they follow Christ, follow self and what APPEARS to be right in their own eyes. I hate the confusion of scripture, but God covers all bases.
Some offerings actually do stink in his nostrils, the "way" is laid out in scripture, too bad some of God's "children" deny most of it.
Without the spirit to guide you...sounding brass, tinkling cymbals...
No spirit; no go. No spirit; confusion. No spirit; self-service. No spirit; muck and mire. No spirit; no hope.
To be adamant in opposition to Christ is... well, you know...
I am SO GLAD that there is written instruction. You have learned quite well, OP. I love you to life!!!
Please, infer I'm not a Christian again... that never gets old. Oh, could you possibly talk about anything related to the thread?
Do you think that encouraging war is what Christ wanted? Do you think he only wanted to help Christians? Do you think that 23 cents per dollar to send Christian literature to war-engulfed countries is a proper use of donated money? Do you think that "Joel" might possibly like some burn cream or medical treatment instead? Do you approve of the Christian Militia persecuting Muslims in the area Joel comes from? Do you believe they need aid as well? Would you be willing to donate for that?
Come on genaea, can you do anything but insult? Really? Any contribution at all other than nasty comments that make you feel more Christian than someone else? Do you think Christ is going to pat you on the head because you insult people? He never really struck me as a bully.
Thank you Melissa for allowing me to be one you address, this time.
No need to make inferences. It is what it is. All of Christ's children, know his voice. And they know what is NOT...
I have already addressed the OP, and I have no insult for her cause. You do, but we, God's children, know the whys and what-fors. Simply opposition...
I have no insult for you either. It is what it is... the rude and snarky way with which you came to say YOUR piece was not surprising at all. However, the charity set up to assist the persecution of the children of God is an EXCELLENT cause to speak up for. Thank you Beth!!! There is no reason to "blast" because it is only for the children of God. Sorry you HATE stuff geared toward the kingdom of God. But that's a PERSONAL issue. No need to tell the children of God that God's children are not worthy.
Now, for the short-comings of the org. it is possible that some things are clouded via your sources and I am willing to bet, not written by the children of God. However, to splash your bile all over this forum is NOT something Jesus would be pleased about, for sure...
"Help the children of God."
"No!!! Help other children to show your love to Christ!!!"
That second statement begs for a fight. Something Jesus would not like either.
The rehearsed and perfected gall is something for the eye to behold. But not shocking. We were promised that Jesus would be misconstrued. Even by they who SAY Lord, Lord with their lips.
The only thing worthy to reply to in that mass of personal attacks and "I'm better than yous" is the validity of my source. Charity navigator does not make any assumptions and works completely off of the information provided to them by the charity. There are several charities that do the same kind of work with much higher ratings. This is because they manage their finances better, give more money to the recipients of their cause, and are more transparent.
Again, please try to stick to topic. The personal attacks don't do anything but make you feel better about yourself.
Cgenaea, you always come with your "see clearly spiritually" glasses on and you're never afraid to speak the truth!
Personal attacks??? You mean when I said bile???
The forum is well-meaning. The big, "I'm more valid than you" is as well, unappreciated. I dont give a hoot about the organization's reports of money mismanagement. I care about the children of God. To boldly butt in with your own ATTACK was uncalled for and very telling about your many admissions about your dislike for the children of God.
Differing opinion on a public form does not equal attack. I was able to make my opinion known without attacking the OP. She was unable to do the same, and it appears that you aren't either.
I do find it telling that since my disagreement, the main issue of the thread seems to do with my religion and how my faith is wrong. I find that exceptionally ironic...
Please do not flatter yourself. This conversation has little to do with any lack you display. What you see as, simply, your disagreement, was actually more attacking than any attack you've deemed you received. Your, simple, disagreement was SO nasty... and it hurt even those on the sidelines.
Your "religion" is a separate issue. If you'd like to start a thread about it, I'm there.
Yes, I'm sure the charity is horribly hurt. As that was the only entitiy that I spoke against, I'm not real concerned with it's feelings.
And I'm not flattering myself, there are pages of bible verses trying to "teach" me and Beth, you and bBeran have insinuated that I am not a Christian. I could frankly not care less, but cries of "persecution" from individuals that engage in such behaviors really fall upon deaf ears. If you can't respect another's faith, why should anyone care about yours?
No one is asking you to care about anything. And again, no one has insinuated anything. It is what it is. Or in this case, not.
Pages of scripture are good. Now who the hell is offended by scripture???
Any reasoning being. In your quoting of scripture, how can I be certain of who you are. Is it not said, that even the devil can quote scripture?
I have been unable to find Joel's story that you posted from any news sites, only on a Christian site describing persecution. Can you please link to a news article, like the one I shared about the attacks being carried out against Muslims by Christians in a similar region?
I didn't find it anywhere else but on the VOM website and other sites quoting it. I found an earlier version where his name was "Hassan". Why they changed it would be an interesting question to know the answer to.
edit: A further note, the statement was made earlier in the thread that this was a government official that did it. This version calls the man an Islamic terrorist. The older version lists it as an insurgent. In "Joel's" region, the government is Christian.
This goes to show why the VOM organization is so important. As I said before, it shows things that some would never even know about unless they shared it. (Very often. So they are fulfilling their true mission.) The title chosen for VOM, makes sense. Its to voice their stories, where they would be silenced.
Such unbelievable response, and yet it isn't. Thanks for sharing that link too.
Yeah, it's horrifying. How many of those stories did you hear on the evening news? You're not going to hear "Joel's" story on Good Morning America... He's a nobody... less than a drop of water in an ocean of people. But there are organizations who do care about the Joels of the world. Org's like VOM, and they spotlight these blessed ppl... these heroes of the faith so that we can pray for them and support them in any way possible.
That is not a news cite, and I have seen no verification for any of the incidents on that list. It looks like a website dedicated to collecting supposed Islamic violence and calling Muslims names (on the main site) and mocking Islam. In fact, the main page seems a lot like anti Islamic hate speech, and does not differentiate between Muslim extremists and other Muslims with no vetting, verification or references. I'm sure a similar cite exists for Christian violence occurring in Africa right now - would you accept any of those incidents as true without independent verification?
You beat me by 15 seconds... So I'll add something else about this "wonderful" Christian charity...
Did you know the founder killed himself after police received word that he had molested a girl?
http://www.persecution.com/public/newsr … b3JpZXM%3D
Why is it your goal to discredit this organization... and every Christian organization?
What does the founder of any org. committing suicide have to do with the goal of an org. to do good?
Do you think everyone who has ever worked for UNICEF is without failing?
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/25/world … -unit.html
http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2011/06 … nded-grap/
http://sohiranetwork.blogspot.com/2011/ … on-in.html
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Scams/A … UNICEF.htm
The list goes on and on and on. I, however, do not relish posting such nonsense as you do. If an organization is trying to do good in the world, I support them. I do not expect perfection, I expect effort and results.
What you two are doing is downright ugly. Control your urges to blindly stab at anything good with the hopes of building up your egos. It's wrong. You're adults, you should know better.
What am I doing exactly? I asked for a news reference to the story you linked, and you sent me to a non verified, biased site full of name calling of Muslims and horrific pictures with no verification, references or useful, traceable information whatsoever. Let's flip this around - when I posted a story about self professed Christians torturing and killing "witch children" in Africa and posted links, you said they were not credible sources, so I found more - verified news organizations. Why are you not willing to do the same, while accusing me of doing something awful?
Why was your first reaction to discredit? How did you take personally a child being tortured for his faith? How did you come to make that your battle? WHY? Ask yourself.
What have I done to discredit the organization here? I have expressed concern that they are creating persecution and martyrs by sending people intentionally into areas where it breaks the law, I have expressed concern that a relatively small percentage of the money they raise actually goes to the cause that it was raised for, and I have mentioned that sending aid like food or medicine would be more helpful in these areas than proselytizing materials, and I have asked for news sources for the story since I cannot find it on any independent, unbiased site. How
is that discrediting the organization or being awful? I think it is responsible to vet and verify any organization before donating to it, and its a good thing to know where your money is going and how it will be used.
So if I posted a story about 911, your first thought would be to blame the victims?
That is what you are doing.
This is not a story about missionaries at all. This is the story about a little boy who is a Christian in Nigeria. Do you believe a little boy who lives in Nigeria has a right to be a Christian or should he have no rights as to his faith? What else would you like to give the government control over in his life? How much more power would you like the terrorists to have? At what point do you support a boy's right of worship, or at least his right not to be burned for his faith?
Have I blamed Joel for any of this? I'd like for you to show me where. I have brought light to a disturbing situation in Africa where Christians are attacking Muslims, and Muslims are attacking Christians, and made clear that I don't think sending bibles will do a lot of good in this situation. I asked for independent sources to verify the veracity of the story, but there is nothing wrong with that, especially since there seems to be several versions of the same story, only referenced on Christian sites. If that constitutes doing something horrible to you, so be it but I cannot agree.
I understand why you're upset, but the anger seems unnecessary and completely pointless. Asking questions and providing context and vetting a charitable organization did not cause this incident, and just like linking to a charity and extolling its virtues didn't cause it. The boy needs medical attention and food, regardless of where it comes from. By all means be angry at the situation that caused this incident - the whole situation, not just part of it. Speak against the actions taking place on both sides, and condemn the violence in both sides that allowed this type of atrocity to take place. But getting angry at me doesn't accomplish anything.
I think being disgusted and being angry are two different things.
You have brought light to nothing, but you have cast aspersions as far and wide as you possibly could (with Melissa's help.) My suggestion to you is to question your own motives.
Okay, you're disgusted with me. That's fine. Since that didn't actually answer my question at all, I'll try again. Does putting the incident in context of what is happening between Christians and Muslims in Africa cast dispersions on the charity you support?
How does supporting aid in the form of food, water or medicine cast dispersion on the charity?
How does asking for verified news articles on that situation cast dispersion?
The only thing I have said that I fully support that could be seen as casting dispersion on that charity is stating that it seems irresponsible to create the problem that you claim to be trying to solve. Sending people to proselytize in an area where doing so is illegal CREATES martyrs, or doesn't solve the problem. Should everyone have the freedom to believe what they want? Absolutely, but my opinion on that does nothing to change the reality around the world that they don't. In some places you can be tortured and killed for believing something, but my recognition of the fact that it's wrong doesn't change that reality, nor does yours.
A difference in perspective or opinion never disgusts me. It can be frustrating at times, but discussing it leads to understanding and growth. As for Melissa, she was here before I stumbled across the thread in my news feed. I'm responsible for what I say. If you have a problem with what she says, perhaps you should take it up with her.
Ok, let's break it down.
Where did you get the idea this org. only sends bibles as a form of help to the hurting???
Where did you get the idea that I am not supportive of other organizations, be they secular or religious offering help (and that we shouldn't support them as well?)
Why is it my job to provide you with any links at all? If you do not find VOM to be a reputable source, google away. I however, think very highly of them and have supported them in the past.
Where have I mentioned missionary efforts? This is something you and Melissa have repeatedly brought up.
Why am I disgusted? I am disgusted b/c I actually have to post a response like this on a thread that was meant to bring attention to a little boy's suffering. But if it makes you happy, I guess that's all that matters. So by all means... keep it going. His msg. was snuffed out on page one.
Again, simply asking questions is not wrong, especially in an open forum where anyone of any religion or none is able to respond and share their opinions. You've been here long enough to know that no thread stays on topic, and that there is nothing to be done about it.
The VOM site has more than one version of this story with varying names and locations, and nothing could be found on any news site whatsoever. I have goggled. When nothing but religious sites turned up, I asked you. It would seem that you're unable to find it either. I don't doubt that is possible, especially in light of the situation over there, but I would like to see independent verification before taking action. That's just part of being skeptical, and I'm sorry if that bothers you.
The VOM site itself says that it sends care packages of hygiene articles along with tracts, bibles and preaching aids. That's where I got it from - the site you sent me to - at 23 cents per dollar donated.
Is it your job to source your story? Only if you insist that others do it (like you have several times) in regards to stories you may not like. Otherwise it would appear to be a bit of a double standard on your part. The missionaries were brought up because persecuted missionaries are focused on at VOM, and their website is full of their stories. Since you brought up VOM, it was in line with discussing their work.
I'm sorry that what I said disgusted you or made you angry, but I'm not sorry for having an opinion or a concern that I wrote about on an open forum. In this country, we all enjoy the right to free speech - not just the people who we agree with.
Are you going to keep saying that Im angry in hopes that it will stick?
Shall I assign you a random emotion now?
Stop being so giddy about casting aspersions on religious organizations.
Did it stick?
Do I know it's the norm to ask questions? Of course.
Do I know it's the norm for topics to go off track? Of course.
Do I think you should question your motives? Always.
Why do you make me get nit-picky? I so hate details. So they provide CARE PACKAGES, HYGIENE ARTICLES AND BIBLES. And yet the one thing you focused on was the literature? You didn't care that they might send him ointments and bandages? What about the fact that when a pastor is killed, they support the family until it can find a way to support themselves? They support NEEDS which could be a horse or a bicycle. Stop trying to tear them down. Your maligning *words are nothing compared to their supportive *actions for the least of these.
Perhaps I think you sound angry based on what you're saying and the interspersed all caps letters that indicate shouting online, but what do I know? You can assign whatever emotion to me that you'd like, you certainly have before. Fortunately, though, I know my emotions, and having someone tell me that I feel a certain way may be slightly annoying, but they're entitled to a mistaken opinion. On an Internet forum, it's simply not worth it for me to let things get to me personally anymore. I've leaned my lesson, which is probably why I'm still here and not fuming in a corner somehere. I know my motives, and they're far from nefarious or mean, regardless of how they apparently seem to you.
Do I make you get nit picky? I'm not sure that's possible. How can I make you get anything? Emotions are tricky things, but I'm not even sure that nit picky is an emotion. It seems like an action or behavior, and I simply cannot make you do anything. I'm responsible for the actions and behaviors I exhibit, not anyone else. Aren't you?
I focused on the bibles and the literature because that's what I found on their website. If they do provide financial support based on need, that's great - I've never maligned that or said that was a bad thing.
Ok... so the first paragraph was concerning something that has little meaning. You thought I was angry, I have told you several times that I am disgusted not angry. My caps were in lieu of bold font to highlight the items sent. None of this matters one iota. Let's be done with it, shall we?
Two, it was an off the cuff remark about how I dislike focusing on small things, also hardly worth our time.
Three, the actual matter... They have a more extensive website other than their FB website obviously. I am glad you are in favor of it. Wouldn't it have been nice if the detractors of this thread had started off that way?
Font formatting can be found under the formatting button...FYI..
[ ,b, ],Bold text,[,/b,] produces Bold text
[,u,],Underlined text,[,/u,] produces Underlined text
[,I,],Italic Text,[,/I,] produces Italic text
[,color=#ff0000,],Red Text,[,/color,] produces Red text
[,color=blue,],Blue Text,[,/color,] produces Blue text
*remove the commas)
I have seen that option. Thank you for your efforts on my behalf. Some times it is just easier to capitalize words... In the context, it would be hard to imagine them being shouted. Plus, I don't remember the last time I shouted at on online persona... it just seems a little off.
Fine, but if it had little meaning that wasn't worth mentioning, I wonder why you mentioned it - because your post was what I was directly responding to.
Secondly, also fine but then why bring that up as well?
Thirdly, if they do provide aid in the form of food, medicine or immediate needs to those in need, that's great - but I still think that 23% of money raised its a low percent comparatively to other charities, that sending literature is less helpful in many areas than other needs is, and I'm still concerned that their practices help create the problem that they are trying to solve. That's not disparaging the charity, it's expressing valid concern and sharing my opinion.
Since this disagreement and my awfulness are cause enough for you to unfriend me, I think there is little else to say. For someone so reactionary to something relatively innocuous, I'm rather glad our joint project came to a close now. I cannot understand how simple disagreement can lead people to take things so incredibly personally to the point of shutting the door on growing mutually respectful interactions. I'm glad I found out now, rather than after I had expended more time and effort into a wasted project.
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2 Cor 6:14
So you were wrong to suggest doing the project with me? Have you confessed that sin?
As a Christian, I apologize. Bible verses were never meant to be used as weapons to hurt someone. That's not what most of us were taught and I personally think Christ would be appalled.
Melissa, I was always taught that verse applied to why believers shouldn't marry non believers. Are you aware of any context in which that verse applies to an atheist/Christian reading the Bible together and exchanging ideas? If so, isn't that directly contradictory to proselytizing? If reading the Bible with an unbeliever is taboo, how are you supposed to convince them it's true?
I actually think it was against Jew vs. Gentile marriages... but I may be wrong. No, of course I'm not aware of such a situation.
I am going to suggest a book for you.. This came up in my fellowship just yesterday...
The book is "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and I meant to actually post it in another group we are both part of, but I figured this was apt. It addresses why Christians use scripture to manipulate and shame... and how one can avoid it.
I'll do the project with you JM, you just need a Christian right?
Edit: I'm sure Mo would do it with you too.
"For someone so reactionary to something relatively innocuous..." Remember Headly?
Yes I do, and we were both reactionary with each other - to the point that we've apologized for it previously. It's not like I shot him, he's still around, working on his hypothesis and discussing it with people. Is there a point to bringing him up, or did you just want a "gotcha"? Sorry, didn't work. Next?
You're saying Headly was being reactionary in that situation? All I saw was him confused at harsh treatment. I thought hypocrisy was a topic you were interested in, so I brought an example of it to your attention for consideration. That's how we grow. If you don't want to consider it, so be it.
I don't really respond blindly to emotional pleas for money. That doesn't mean I don't care, it just means I'm not gullible. The organization, founded by a pedophile, posted a story about a child with no verifiable facts and asked for money to send useless articles and inflammatory literature to areas where everybody is being persecuted, but they only want to help specific people. Furthermore, the charity has been rated extremely poorly for mismanagement of funds, and very little of the money that people send to this charity actually goes to help anybody. It goes to a website and newsletters to "spread awareness" yet nobody here could even tell where the child came from without deep-web searches and those turned up several different versions of the story... and before I said anything, no one had any idea what the situation was over there... and I'll wage that even now, no one can name the Muslim "terrorist" organization operating in the area or why they are pissed off. So "sharing Joels story" is obviously a huge failure.
Don't confuse being a "big meany" with not being a fool.
Yet, instead of answering any of these very real, easily verifiable issues, I'm told I'm trying to disparage an organization that any reasonable, non-biased individual would agree is doing a pretty good damn job of disparaging itself.
You use hyperbole as debating tactic. My responses to every repeated attack you just flung at this organization are already recorded. I have made no plea to you.
Actually, I used no hyperbole. Those are the facts... and so far the only response I seem to have gotten was that I didn't care about children and hated Christianity... and that you were trying to do a good thing and I was trying to stop you... for whatever reason you seem to believe.
It does make sense to ask what would explain that. Not a lot does, but it is explained. As someone once said, don't take the "ban bait". Its always the same. For some, this isn't about really discussing ideas, or caring about tortured and abused people, even the children. The agendas are so obvious. I think that literally ignoring some is the only answer. I think if less of us even responded to them, it would be less of a "feeding" more of the same. It doesn't matter how chummy, fair, nice, factual or based in reality you are, just the discussing with some is meant to essentially do this very thing we observe over and over. Its not a giving up, or letting others win, its a true recourse, and effectual.
Essentially, silencing you, is a goal as well. See how it works?...you want to have the voices of these persecuted heard, and encourage others to support, pray, or share the details for the knowledge of these things. By silencing you, by baiting you till you say something that sorely needs saying yet you "can't" technically here, the same goal could be achieved. Less good news, and the love of Christ is shared with others.
Its like cheating to win, and in this case, a discussion or debate. There is great glee gained by some in doing this. All that is needed is simple reponses, because the art of the twisting of anything you say it such fun and a game. (not just you by any means, any of us that engage or have engaged in the past.) They can have all the last words and pot shots, because this is an admission of losing when one acts in that manner, anyway. I think they do a disservice to the whole site. Some really do want to discuss matters here. I admire you love for God, and your boldness to share the truth and in this case about this precious little boy, and all the others.
Well said, and plus one. I don't know if you are aware of the previous debacle to which I referred, but your statements are all the more relevant in consideration of it. I know you too have first hand knowledge of the games. ty.
Your doing a good job resisting the baiting. Remembering their triumphant posts and reveling after previous efforts led to bannings and discouragement, I applaud your staying above the fray and not falling for it this go round. Not being lured into fruitless engagement, (just appropriate responses that can't be spun against you), will be the mark of success.
Ill be honest with you bB, Im not answering any differently than I normally do... I may somehow be perceived differently, but I don't know what that would be due to. I do appreciate the support though. It's not me who is suffering though, it's the ppl VOM is trying to bring attention to.
Understood and agreed. I just am encouraging you to not be led into anything that can be used to try the banning nonsense again. I rarely ever participate anymore, but as you know that has more to do with what we have going on personally and lack of time. When I do though, I am cautious after seeing how this played out for others before. Who has time for that?
Hebrews 13:1-3 Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
1John 3:16-18 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Thy word, have I hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Its just a propeganda against muslims. Any how, what you will say about non muslims behavior with muslims???? Like Bloody Israel, America, India etc etc a long list is there of extrimists whodaily slaughter the muslims at every level either by killing them, roast them, fired them, rape them n by making fun of their religion n Holy Quran.THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
Remove religion from the world and make it a happier place!
I'm no fool, like Jesus??? Who helps and forgives all??? Even they who do not pass the judgment test of others???
I really thought that that was the sentiment at first...
But... change; like Jesus, we target and ostracize our own, (finding them intolerable and disgusting) the ones who do a work for the kingdom of God???
Are there any bible verses for that? Or are we just doing what WE feel???
Do not be unequally yoked...
Jesus came as Savior for all people. His call was to sinners, as we are all sinners and those who think they are not are mistaken. It was impossible for him to be negatively influenced or corrupted by people, so he had no need to be careful. But humans must be careful. They are called to share the truth with unbelievers, as well as to love, feed, cloth, comfort, and help in any way possible; yet they must be on guard and careful that the influence is going only one direction. As humans it is easy for us to influence each other. Godly people will encourage us to be more godly. The godless will sooner or later at least to some degree encourage the opposite. We are warned: "Whoever walks with wise people will be wise, but whoever associates with fools will suffer" (Proverbs 13:20). Reading more of 2 Corinthians 6, it becomes clear that the warning is not just regarding marriage between believers and unbelievers, but union of any sort.
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”
So you agree that sed suggesting and encouraging that we read the Bible together classifies as being yoked with an unbeliever? That she probably shouldn't have suggested it or participated in reading the Bible with me? Interesting.
Should you only work with believers? Should you only accept a job if your boss is a believer? Should you not have unbelieving friends or family members? Should you quit your job if you find out you work with heathens? Disown your family? Not interact on Internet forums with atheists? That's a more extreme interpretation of that verse than I have ever seen, and if it were true it seems to be boxing all believers regularly participating with atheists into a very dangerous hole. You're not spreading the message with us, we already know it.
I didn't form an opinion on whether she should or shouldn't read the bible with you. That was between her and God. She knows what God has called her to, and He can protect her in any call He gives.
It is beneficial to us for our most intimate relationships to be with other believers. Sometimes that's outside our control, as when a family member is an unbeliever. But we are wise to chose believers for our spouses, our close friends, our partners and such. This is God's warning, not mine. I didn't even listen well. I united with a man who wasn't walking with God (though loves him now) because I was tempted by the whole good looking bad boy on a bike thing he had going on a decade ago. And as someone who didn't follow the exhortation, I agree more wholeheartedly that we should listen to God's warning here, not because I don't love my husband (which I do) or because he doesn't love me (which he does), but because it wasn't an easy road when light and darkness were united.
There is no ethnicity, socioeconomic status, etc. that is off limits for union of any kind, for we are all God's creation and there is no difference of importance here, yet when we as believers unite intimately with unbelievers, we are in dangerous territory and we should limit ourselves to the leading of the Lord for His purposes. If we are already in union with an unbeliever when we become a believer, then at least when it comes to marriage, we should remain with them so long as they want to remain with us (see 1 Corinthians 7).
But I wasn't going to marry Beth, and I wasn't close with her - we simply agreed to go through the Bible together and share our insights and perspectives respectively- which we managed to do politely. Yet when I questioned the charity and the story in this forum, all of that got thrown out the window, it seems. I'm trying to understand how that verse she threw at me fit, when she repeatedly has stated that she has many unbelieving friends and acquaintances, yet I get that verse thrown at me. It seemed out of context and strange, since she's the one who suggested the project in the first place.
I am still more than happy to do the bible study with you. It wasn't actually my idea. I offered to read thru the bible with Emile, she was not hot on the idea, but you said you'd like to do it. Not that it matters, but just to set the facts straight... and I'm glad you did offer b/c I have enjoyed it and the back and forth that we have had. I'm still planning on responding if you'd like to continue.
As far as the verse about what does light and darkness share in common... it was my response to your remark about me defriending you. I don't expect us to agree... obviously. However this group, (VOM) is very special to me. I love the work they do. What you and Melissa are doing feels very much like sport to me. Call it what you want, but that's how I see it. The lengths several of you have gone to to try and discredit an organization with pure motives that does so much good... makes me sick, to be honest. I don't feel comfortable having you all in my personal life, b/c, as I've said, your motives seem very dark to me. But do as you wish. I don't care about you less. I just don't want to invite anyone into my life that would participate in this kind of ugly attack.
have I ever posted anything on your Facebook that you find offensive? Have I ever debated you, called you out or challenged you on anything that you post? This is not a sport to me. I enjoy conversations and I enjoy debate, but when you suggested that we be friends on Facebook, it was with conditions - and I have thoroughly respected those conditions without fail. You don't invite debate on your page, and I respect that. You invited me to be your friend on Facebook, and I accepted. I have never once disrespected your wishes there, but if you want to unfriend me over a disagreement on a separate site over a charity or what you seem to think my motives are, that's certainly your prerogative.
I'm sorry that to you it seems that my motives are dark, or that this is simply a game to me. That's not at all truth, but if you perceive it that way, there's little I can do to change that. I could argue the point, but it really doesn't matter anymore, and you're not likely to care what I have to say on the matter now. It was not my intention to maliciously discredit the organization, simply speak out their rating as a charity, and express my concern for what I perceive to be their methods and the situation in Africa that is continuing. If either of those things seem malicious to you, then I don't know what to tell you. I've seen worse said about secular or non-religious charities, but that seems of little importance.
You and I live, it seems, in completely different worlds. While I'm open to discussing things that I disagree with, and try (and sometimes fail) to do it respectfully, I simply don't make a habit of creating friendships that disintegrate over a disagreement - regardless of how strongly I feel about the situation. I do not feel that I've been intentionally disrespectful to you as a person, nor do I feel my criticism or concern over the charity was an attack - as much as expressing my own opinion about them based on the links that you've posted and my own past experience with them and researching them. I didn't want this to be the case between us, but since it appears that it is regardless, I can live with that. You take care, Beth.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
All this petty bickering over what? If you don't like the thread, you don't have to read, reply or post in it.
That is all.
I have read many a forum about "religion " all of those who line up in the P.C. crowd line to criticize Christianity ! And I have a question , Bring on the bet of the best of the anti- Christians , the anti- God people and answer this one simple question .......... Will it be only Christianity that you'll condemn or are you also going to start a new rant criticizing also - Islam , the Muslim faith perhaps , ....I'll be awaiting that thread ! No I suspected not - only Christianity . How whimpy!
There does seem to be a lot of focus specifically on the one set of beliefs, over all others. Not a lot explains that particular narrow focus, but some things do.
Forum dwellers who are on the "good ship " of God attackers seem to easily justify the message given " all the mythology " , Seems they should rather ask themselves why the split - personality focus ? In other words , why bother questioning - arguing over something you don't believe in anyway ?
Of course in truth , there is probably no one in the world who "gives " to others as much as the Christian faith !
I believe that! When God is within us filling us with love that love will overflow and pour out of us, and we cannot help but give. Giving comes in a variety of ways, not only the stereotypical financial means, and those with the Spirit will desire to give what they have to give.
Rad is no longer a member on Hubpages, RA has bee banned from HubPages. Not sure abouyt Link. Will look and see.
Thanks. They'd been very active in the forums, but suddenly were gone. Hope all goes well with them.
If they return under another persona, they won't be hard to spot. Should be interesting to see if they do as it seems hard to stay away from HP.
RA had at least one other account. It is also banned. Doubtful he will be back but not sure about Radman. Haven't found anything on Link.
I am almost always for peace. The world is,and has been plagued by wars and violence,and excuses have been made up to attack other countries almost senselessly ,but I don't see a way to stop the murderous hordes of extremist muslims other than destroying their capability to wage holy war against everyone and everything.
War is the product of rich politicians today. They sit in their whited castles, sip brandy and talk about nice things. But when we look closer we see their "talk" is how to make a greater profit, and there are always the young to fill the void of those that die for their "cause." Remember, whether you believe Jesus was real or a myth, it does not change the story. The Bible says he died that to save, the rich politicians were behind the intrigue.
Sidelight... I see Campeador on your profile. The Cid was a good story. Have you ever read The Captain from Castile. His horse, though fiction, had the same name. One of my favorite books.
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What is our obligation as American Christians to Christians outside of the United States that are being persecuted, such as in Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Nigeria, etc.
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