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Would you like to take another birth after this one?

  1. 0
    buddhaanalysisposted 23 months ago

    as a human or another form on earth or elsewhere. Or do you think that there is no rebirth.

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      As you DNA is destroyed, you can't have your body back.  As your memory is also gone (brain cells all dead and rotted) you can't come back as who you were but with a different body.

      What would be the point, then?

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Because you still want to be on earth playing. You are not ready to go Home if you have unfulfilled desires. Every 500 years, give or take, we wake up again and are ready for a new life. So, you enter a fertilized ovum and incarnate into a new body. When we want to become one with God's Spirit, we no longer come back. We ascend as Jesus did.

        I believe there are other planets and universes. (Jesus mentioned that in His Father's House there are many mansions.) I feel like I was punished for something I did in my last life by being sent here. I believe I was from a planet where days and nights were twenty-four hours, not a mere twelve. What can you get done in one twelve hour day? I could go on and on about THAT (much better) planet.   

        TWISI

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          If you incarnate into a new body, it is without your memory.  The you is gone, replaced by someone else.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            No. The You is evermore. You never loose who you are: your consciousness. You go to sleep after death just like in life but the urge to live, to awaken, is Your urge. Your individual awareness. You never loose your individuality whether in...
            or not in...
            the body.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Nope.  Your memory dies when the connections in the brain die.  And the you, made of those memories along with other traits, are gone forever and never to be repeated in anyone else.

              Experience plays a large part in forming those connections, experiences that no one else can ever duplicate.  And when they are gone, they are gone and so is much of what makes you, you.

          2. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            It is true that we cannot consciously remember our past lifetimes, but the record is somewhere. We reap karma in our next lifetime based on those records.  One is never the exact same person, with the same family or body. Our present lives can never be recreated in any way. But, I have heard that our faces appear very similar from lifetime to lifetime. What is creating that similarity? The essence of the individual having consciousness. I have also heard we recognize family and friends in their light forms after death.
            Just Sharing Possibilities.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              If there is a record, it is in the writings and memories of those still alive.  Which are not transferable to a new brain OR DNA strand.

              All faces are similar, it's just a matter of HOW similar.  As we all share most of our DNA this is to be expected.

              While you may have heard we recognize family and friends in their "light forms", it is highly unlikely to be true and has zero evidence to back it.  We do, after all, hear most anything in these days of wide communication.

          3. lone77star profile image90
            lone77starposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Wilderness said, "If you incarnate into a new body, it is without your memory.  The you is gone, replaced by someone else."

            If _you_ incarnate (reincarnate), what is that "you?" It's spirit. Certainly, the physical memory, training patterns and motor skills are gone in the physical switchboard, called the "brain." But that's not the whole "you."

            If you awaken as spirit, then memory can be continuous without physical instrumentality. Some people get glimpses of other lifetimes, especially when their new bodies are younger and not so "settled." A rare few children remember a past life with startling clarity and details. Very few ever reach spiritual awakening (enlightenment, everlasting life).

            One child in India remembered his ex-wife and was so distressed that he had not had the chance to tell her where he had buried the family gold. When he took care of that chore, he was at peace and concentrated on his new life. How did this 5-year-old child know where "someone else" had buried the family gold? Lucky guess? Ghosts? Magic? Aliens? Or simply remembering it while there was still a connection to spiritual memory?

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              No, memory is contained in the brain tissue, not some immaterial "spirit".  And no, people do not remember "past lives" because there has been none.

              And maybe the child in India is just another story without basis, much like the 911 conspiracy stories we read of.

    2. Harishprasad profile image78
      Harishprasadposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      The previous birth, this  birth and rebirth are illusions till we deem ourselves as bodies. Who are we ? Who sees things and persons ? When seen, things and persons become thoughts. Who thinks things and persons and creates thoughts ? What is thinking ? There are three different entities viz. Thought,  thinking and thinker. Are they same or different ? Thought and thinking are perceived by thinker. So, thinker is the truth and the rest is like an imposition on thinker.

      If thinker is brain and brain is like an instrument, what is it that impels brain to think. As in a car, there is driver who is behind driving. In this case, driven, driving and driver are three entities but the true life force is the driver and not driven and driving. Car is like our brain, driver is like our self and driving is just an act just as  thinking is. Sometimes a  driver leaves one  car for a few days and drives another car. Only true entity is driver and he can change as many cars as he wishes. Car is like our body, driver is like our self. Just as without driver, car and driving are meaningless, so without thinker, thought and thinking are baseless.

      Though, driver in this physical life, is aware of all cars driven by him and his driving, he can also forget some cars,  if he goes on driving innumerable cars in his life time. In the same way, a man forgets his previous births, though a few can recall. The brain and thinking makes sense when there is a thinker. A thinker  enters into mind just as a   driver gets into the car. Just as driver, driven( car) and driving are interlinked, they are not same. In the same way, thinker, thinking and thought( brain or what is perceived by brain )  are not the same.   

      So, theory of rebirth or reincarnation seems feasible.

  2. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago

    - have you never felt yourself to be from another time and place? In my last life I probably wore long dresses and lived high above the townspeople in some Scottish castle. I know the Scottish coast from dreams, although I have never been there. As a very young child, in kindergarten, I would always climb the playground gym to the highest bar to watch the minions of children below. I'm sure I tread up and down many staircases in those long gowns. At home, I would wrap lacy curtains I found in the garage around me and dance all over the back yard. My daughter was not like this ... she was more of a tom-boy… never wearing pink, loving horses and rollerblading. Where do our individual traits, talents, impulses and interests come from?
    OurSelves. 
    We have all had many, many lifetimes.

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Traits and impulses, mostly DNA.  Talents, mostly experience.  And interests probably a strong mix of both.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        No, wilderness. The ever-present, never-to-die, YOU.
        The truth is, your essence is made up of a blueprint (a light-form) of your body. The DNA etc. gets its instructions from this blueprint made up of invisible life-tronic particles.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          If that's the truth, show it.  Prove it, or if you can't, at least supply some evidence that we are a light form blueprint.  Find those invisible "life-tronic" particles and stop making up words for things you don't know are even there.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            What do you think the nervous system does?
            The function of the axon is to transmit information to different neurons, muscles and glands. In certain sensory neurons (pseudounipolar neurons), such as those for touch and warmth, the electrical impulse travels along an axon from the periphery to the cell body, and from the cell body to the spinal cord along another branch of the same axon.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axon

            " Atoms emit and absorb light at characteristic energies. This produces "emission lines" in the spectrum of each atom."

            "In ancient India, the Hindu schools of Samkhya and Vaisheshika, from around the early centuries CE developed theories on light. According to the Samkhya school, light is one of the five fundamental "subtle" elements (tanmatra) out of which emerge the gross elements. The atomicity of these elements is not specifically mentioned and it appears that they were actually taken to be continuous.

            On the other hand, the Vaisheshika school gives an atomic theory of the physical world on the non-atomic ground of ether, space and time. The basic atoms are those of earth (prthivi), water (pani), fire (agni), and air (vayu) Light rays are taken to be a stream of high velocity of tejas (fire) atoms. The particles of light can exhibit different characteristics depending on the speed and the arrangements of the tejas atoms The Vishnu Purana refers to sunlight as 'the seven rays of the sun'."

            The Indian Buddhists, such as Dignāga in the 5th century and Dharmakirti in the 7th century, developed a type of atomism that is a philosophy about reality being composed of atomic entities that are momentary flashes of light or energy. They viewed light as being an atomic entity equivalent to energy."
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

            "Eventually the modern theory of quantum mechanics came to picture light as (in some sense) both a particle and a wave, and (in another sense), as a phenomenon which is neither a particle nor a wave (which actually are macroscopic phenomena, such as baseballs or ocean waves). Instead, modern physics sees light as something that can be described sometimes with mathematics appropriate to one type of macroscopic metaphor (particles), and sometimes another macroscopic metaphor (water waves), but is actually something that cannot be fully imagined. As in the case for radio waves and the X-rays involved in Compton scattering, physicists have noted that electromagnetic radiation tends to behave more like a classical wave at lower frequencies, but more like a classical particle at higher frequencies, but never completely loses all qualities of one or the other. Visible light, which occupies a middle ground in frequency, can easily be shown in experiments to be describable using either a wave or particle model, or sometimes both."
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

    2. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
      Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      John had been Elijah in a previous lifetime as Jesus had been Elisha. Consider how similar their powers and abilities to heal and create miracles had been in those previous lifetimes: (Even their relationships were similar in that Elijah paved the way for Elias just as John paved the way for Jesus.)

      Miracles of Elisha:
      "The healing of the waters at Jericho, the filling of the poor widow's vessels with oil, the reviving of the Shunammite woman's son whose birth he had predicted as a reward for her hospitality to him, the rendering innocuous of the wild gourds, the feeding of a multitude on an insufficient quantity of food, much being left over after their hunger had been satisfied, the healing of Naaman, the Syrian captain, of leprosy, the punishing of Gehazi for covetousness, and the raising of the iron ax which had fallen into the water. After his death the very touch of his bones revived a man buried by accident in the prophet's sepulcher
      —In Rabbinical Literature:
      Elisha having received a double portion of the prophetic spirit, is held to have worked twice as many miracles as Elijah. While Elijah restored one person from death, Elisha restored two—the son of the Shunammite woman, and Naaman, who, being a leper, was considered as one dead. From the incidents of Elisha's life a number of halakic precepts are derived. Indeed, both Elijah and Elisha are considered great rabbinical masters." II Kings xiii. 20, 21.
      http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5682-elisha

  3. lone77star profile image90
    lone77starposted 23 months ago

    I would like very much to be enlightened and not have to come back. But I'm no longer certain that things are that simple.

    Who is it that comes back? According to the Kabbalists, the separate self is ego. The awakening of spirit is the death of ego and the return of spirit to the whole.

    If any lifetime proves too much to digest, spiritually, then the spirit shatters and splits into several smaller pieces that can more easily digest the egoistic desires with a greater chance of converting them to altruistic ones.

    With some of my own memories of past lives, this makes far more sense.

    The "self" or "identity" is a pseudo-self -- an artificial construct attached to one physical body until it dies. That same "self" may reincarnate or may split and reincarnate in several.

    The ultimate goal, it seems, is to come together as one, but as spirit and with the true meaning of love -- without self-concern (ego).

  4. mishpat profile image60
    mishpatposted 23 months ago

    Reincarnation?  This is a twisted theology of the new birth, the new body and the new "life." Reincarnation does not exist, as man never really "dies."  Nor does he "redevelop in a metaphysical manner."  There is life.  On each side of life is eternity.  We are just passing through this world for a short time never to return.  Our worldly wealth, knowledge and possessions will also be gone.  What we "are" will end.  We will all kneel before God, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge all men (and women) according to His standard.  Then the "new life" begins which is not of this world, era or age.  We are not reincarnated.  We continue in a new eternal body.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image23
      Castlepalomaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Even some atheist believe in Reincarnation. Going with the most probable theology where my energy evolves into a swirl like soup of stardust , much in common with the sun and stars As we are all connected with the Universe.  Hope to be reincarnated as a 2000 year old red wood tree living in peace. With my enbeded roots into the earth and a simply law of no fighting with own branches. Unless some christians comes along and chops me down to make me into bibles or worst, he makes me into an over sized house.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        What holds your swirl together?  Gravity holds the stardust, making sun and stars, but what holds energy together?

        Given that there is no known answer, how is that the "most probable" answer instead of merely dying?

        1. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Energy is created by Difference.  Without Difference, everything is Same-ness.  With complete Same-ness, everything never moves, never changes, never presents contrast.   With complete Same-ness, nothing can be experienced. 

          Energy is created by opposites.  High/Low.  Up/Down.  Big/Small.  Black/White.  Old/New.  Is/Is not.  Smelly/Not Smelly.  Loud/Soft.

          Complete Same-Ness = No Consciousness

          1. bBerean profile image60
            bBereanposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            So what your saying is it would kill us to all agree.  wink

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              What he is saying is not scientific. If we knew the science behind all religion we would all agree.  Even the atheists... or especially them!

        2. Castlepaloma profile image23
          Castlepalomaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          What hold energy together?

          Any particle with an electric charge will exert a force on any other particle with charge. It's a bit like cliché human romance (1) opposites attract, like charges repel (2) forces get weaker proportional to distance usually intermolecular

          What Holds Society Together – The simply answer is love  the ultimate Power is love, understanding and Light ...

          However, all things visible and invisible originate from only one source of life. That is ... Fire, water, air and earth. We commonly know outwardly fire is the largest part of the source of all life The iron in your blood is the same metal everywhere in the universe and fire moves the sun the stars and 99% core of the earth which was once was upon a star.

          You ask good question wilderness

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Yes, masses with an electrical charge will be attracted to each other.  But that has nothing to do with energy creating a swirl as energy has no electrical charge.  Electrical charge is created by a surplus or deficit of electrons; mass which is not present in energy.

            No, fire (chemical oxidation of matter) does not create life.  If I understand you correctly, the fusion of hydrogen atoms does, but not fire.

            1. Castlepaloma profile image23
              Castlepalomaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              When Christian God says the Eternal Fire Source was located in the Lava Lakes Railway when mythological creatures of fire are the element that is most destructive to all living. They know if they control the fire they control your life and they control your fears.

              I am on to something saying opposite. Fire is the main source of life and may be the most abundance part of the earth 99% lava mass core of the earth to sustain All Living Creatures. What is more common than light, enlighten and fire that holds us together.

              1. wilderness profile image97
                wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                But fire is not the source of life.  Again, one could make the case that nuclear fusion is, but that is not fire at all.  And the earth's core is not lava (molten rock); it is iron.

                You're trying to mix philosophy and physics by playing loose with words, but it doesn't work.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image23
                  Castlepalomaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Researchers in the Soviet Union began an ambitious drilling project whose goal was to penetrate the Earth's upper crust and sample the warm, mysterious area where the crust and mantle intermingle. If the hole had reached the initial goal of 15,000 meters, temperatures would have reached a projected 300°C (572° .

                  Not fire, yet dam hot and keeps getting hotter

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image23
                    Castlepalomaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    Yes 99% of the earth's mass is unknown  collectively for us humans. Yes I  mixed philosophy and physics by playing loose with words, yet it dose help to work getting closer to the truth.

                    What did you think I was GOD?

  5. Thomas Swan profile image92
    Thomas Swanposted 23 months ago

    Wishful thinking.

  6. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago

    < If any lifetime proves too much to digest, spiritually, then the spirit shatters and splits into several smaller pieces that can more easily digest the egoistic desires with a greater chance of converting them to altruistic ones.>

    I do not believe this, lone77star. Why would you believe the spirit "shatters?"

    My reasoning: How can the will of one individual control many unless one were omnipresent as God is. Until we are perfect as God is, we will not shatter. We are only one bubble of the ocean, not two or three. It would be impossible for an unrealized soul to manage more than one soul.

  7. mishpat profile image60
    mishpatposted 23 months ago

    John and Elijah are not the same person, but Elijah will be back, sometime in the future, hopefully near future.

    As to the Jewish Encyclopedia cited here, (and we have to be careful how we address this one word), the latest Hasidic/Kabbalic teachings are not what the "Hebrews" were originally taught, and that is according to the Bible, Old Testament.  In point of fact, the present day Hasidism is exactly what Moses warned his people not to do, Deuteronomy 32.  So we have to be careful not to use "commentaries" as factual accounts, only as study helps.

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
      Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      It is obvious to anyone willing to observe that Elijah has already come back and so has Elias.

      1. mishpat profile image60
        mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Nope.  That is an "obvious" misinterpretation or understanding.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
          Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Nope. One must be willing to observe closely enough.

          1. mishpat profile image60
            mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Yes, and there is nothing here to show or indicate that Elijah/Elias "has come."  The Greek makes it clear that "if you will receive it" means if you desire to understand it, that is understand that Elias is foreshadowed in the work John and rejected.  Malachi predicted it.  Matthew presents the reasoning here in chp 11 and 17.  Revelation presents the actual stage for that coming.  So what we have here is an analogy and a prophesy.  Nope, the actual Elias has not returned.  But he will and then the whole of Israel and the world will see and hear him, Revelation 11:3.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Elisha was the previous life of Jesus, as Elijah/Elias had been the previous life of John whether you want to accept that fact or not.
              (Matthew 11:13-14)

              1. mishpat profile image60
                mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                New age teachings are nothing new, nor are the scriptural.  They have been around as long as Christianity.  We even find humor regarding them in Acts 19:13-16.  New Age and its ever evolving message is against the heart and principle of scripture which is the word of God.  Paul addresses these various humanist religions in Acts 19:19.

                Reincarnation, Hebrews 9:27

                Yoga, a wonderful form of exercise and body toning, which has been transmogrified into an unholy thing, a religion unto itself, 1 Timothy 4:7-8.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Acts 19:13-16.
                  "vagabond Jews, and exorcists... strolled through the countries of the Lesser Asia, practising that magic which was in such vogue among the heathen…" does not refer to Yoga or the science of Yoga in the least.

                    Acts 19:19.
                  " Many of them also who used magic arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver." Magic arts does not refer to the divine science of Yoga either. No incantations or sorcery is ever used.


                  2 Samuel 14:14
                  "Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways, (through rebirth in a new body, if need be,) so that a banished person does not remain banished from him."
                  But yes, the body can only die once.

                  1 Timothy 4:7-8.
                  "But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."
                  This does not refer to the Holy Science of Yoga.

                  You know not of what you condemn.

                2. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  How do you figure that Yoga has become an "unholy religion" any more than a Jane Fonda tape has?

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    You refer to Jane Fonda?  No, No… she does not teach true Yoga…!   So funny!

                    <Yoga, a wonderful form of exercise and body toning, which has been transmogrified into an unholy thing, a religion unto itself,> Also pretty Funny!

                    Maybe its time for a new thread.  Let's see…"The Truth About Yoga"
                    But yawn…

                      Maybe someday… If feel like it… or if someone says "Please do, KLH!" and means it...big_smile

                  2. mishpat profile image60
                    mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    God makes it clear in the Bible that one is either with Him or against Him.  (I understand you do not accept the Bible but that is moot at this point for explanation purposes.)  That which is against Him is unholy.  I suspect that yoga (meditation) was, in part, a manner of communication with God at one time, though it was not called yoga, but meditation.  Meditation and prayer have always been avenues of communication with God.  But, as with many other things, yoga was corrupted by humanist thought resulting in several goals, none of which is really in tune with the Bible which is the Word of God.  Therefore, it has become unholy.  Though yoga as an exercise can be quite beneficial, the associated occult factors, again, make it unholy.

  8. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago

    Life-tronic particles equals the energy of our beings and are dispersed by the (super amazing) physical system that coordinates them.

    1. mishpat profile image60
      mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      I have no idea what this means!  But I am certain it is not in the Bible.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        ...which was written before most of the discoveries of science.
        Jesus mentioned: If your eye is single, your whole body will be full of light.
        What did he mean?
        He could not say at the time, because mankind knew nothing of

                                     *energy* 

        He had to speak in parables to the common folk. However, He gave his disciples advanced scientific teachings.
        For instance he taught them meditation, Luke 11:34, yogic principles of stopping the activity of the heart, 1 Corinthians 15:31, and healing methods, Acts 3:1–26


        .

        1. mishpat profile image60
          mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          See next.

  9. mishpat profile image60
    mishpatposted 23 months ago

    Some things never change.  The history of the gnostic cult has been one of trying to confuse the issues by either introducing unassociated subject matter into a discussion or responding in an elongated, convoluted manner while combining the issues willy-nilly.  Best one can do is ignore it.

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
      Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      A mind is a terrible thing to close.
      But, So be it.
      Who am I to open up any?

    2. Thomas Swan profile image92
      Thomas Swanposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Hey! Don't mock my dimensional energy rainbow that infuses my spirit with photonic nuances that are too ethereal and cosmically unrestricted for your comprehension!

      Seriously though, I think some people just read the wrong books and don't have a sensitive enough BS detector.

      1. mishpat profile image60
        mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Having a bad day here understanding the direction of folks.  I can't tell if you're slammin' me or agreeing or staying neutral.  Best thing to do for now is push the off button and go watch a hockey game.  At least the rules don't change to fit a new days thoughts and desires.

        1. Thomas Swan profile image92
          Thomas Swanposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Agreeing I think. Reading "life-tronic particles" caused my eyebrows to make a dash for my hairline. But I'm not Christian either. All superstitions warrant skepticism, not belief.

          1. mishpat profile image60
            mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            It seems as soon as we title something, we have to begin adding subtitles.  Christianity has many.  But the basics have remained unchanged in spite of man's attempts to do so.  Too many times the political-based and greedy leadership of a Christian group is all the outside world sees.  The failings of man do not stop on either side of the church door.  Yet, the Christian doctrine has remained the same.   

            But we find through history that the present day new age thinking (new age having had many titles through the years) is not a static thought process or doctrine.  It grabs onto whatever grabs onto the most people.  Its doctrines and beliefs change on a "daily" basis to fit its new direction, toward gathering the masses.  Its the book of the month club or the new diet for the unbeliever who wants to appear as a believer.

            It appears we accept the existence of the 3rd World, 4th Reich and the 5th Estate, but we forget the unnumbered, silent realm of the occult.  For the unbeliever it does not exist.  For the believer the word devil or satan is used often but shallow. 

            There is a world between the believer and the non-believer.  It belongs to the devil and his angels.  Their "religion" is the occult.  Their doctrine is a little science, a little Bible and a whole lot of humanism.  We can't title it because it has no foundation and changes like the wind.  And, of course, only religious nuts believe it exists anyway.

 
working