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Has Lucifer convienced the World that God is Evil?

  1. r-o-y profile image82
    r-o-yposted 18 months ago

    The Luciferian gospel:

    Genesis 1:1 we read, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” So, if Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then God created him that way.

    This gospel states that God is the author of evil if He created Satan evil from the beginning, so if God created evil He cannot be without sin himself because he would be the author of sin. Do you see the blasphemy in this gospel?This gospel places the fall of creation on the Lord Jesus Christ Just as the New International Version Bible does.

    Now the true gospel states that God knows no evil, he is pure and without sin. So right off we have a major contradiction here. This is the result of Lucifer’s agents distancing him from Satan so he will later be exulted in the eyes of the world as God, while Jehovah is seen as the creator of evil. This is the end-time deception that deceives the whole world, even the Christian World that the Word of God speaks of.

    Is Lucifer and Satan the Same Being?

    1. Barbara Kay profile image85
      Barbara Kayposted 18 months ago in reply to this

      God created him with a free will. He chose to rebel against God.

      1. Paul Wingert profile image80
        Paul Wingertposted 17 months ago in reply to this

        In that cute Jewish fairy tale, the talking snake was just a talking snake, nothing to do with Satan. Ancient Mesopotamian often used snakes, whether they talked or not, as metaphors to represent eternal life. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" on not a sentence but the title of the paragraph. It's written in classical Babylonian format. The Torah points this out. Lucifer does not have to convince God is evil, God did this to himself - read your Bible. According to the Bible God never said he loved anyone and is portrayed as an insecure, stupid, genocidal psychopath.

        1. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

          It had everything to do with Satan, true Ancient Mesopotamian often used snake as a metaphor, and the snake is used as a metaphor for many things. One of the many things snake is a metaphor is evil, that’s what’s represented by the snake in the garden. Weather take it as a metaphor or literally, it represents the befallen man. And there’s one thing we know for sure is that man is evil, his world is full of evil that he himself created and now blames someone else of his evil.

          Read to me out of your bible where God is evil, help me understand where you are come from. Be more specific, show me the verses of scripture where it presents God as evil, don’t make a sweeping statement.  I just don’t believe that there’s a new born baby anywhere in this world that God does not love. Now that baby may grow up and separate himself from that love, but at his birth he’s loved. That bible doctrine, read the bible.
          Where is this genocidal that you accuse God, please explain because I can’t read your mind.

          1. janesix profile image59
            janesixposted 17 months ago in reply to this

            So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

            1. r-o-y profile image82
              r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

              What you don’t seem to understand is that this is war, just as it is in today’s world it was back then, the enemy was out to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. You still hear this today from the countries surrounding Israel.  Now if they are successful in acquiring the nu-clear bomb, they already told us just what they intend to do with it, to wipe Israel of the face of the earth. Now just before they pull the trigger on this plan, Israel gets the news of their plan, what do you think Israel will do?

              They intend to kill all Israel, that includes everything including children, animals, trees, and all life, knowing that this is the plan, what would you do just let them wipe you and all that you love or would you strike first with an equal and force or stand by and be wipe off the face of the earth. You would strike first. They were out to wipe out Judah, God told them to strike first and wipe them out.

              This is what the small country of Israel had to contend, surrounded by armies that outnumber them tremendously. Wipe them out before they wipe you out, but only if they truly intend to wipe you out first and only if they have means to enforce their threat.  Now we must use our god given ability of reasoning, we know for sure that this is metaphoric language. We know that Israel did not kill everything that breed. Dogs breeds, lizards breed and all the insects breed, do you believe Israel killed everything that breeds? It its metaphoric language for destroy them before they destroy they destroy you.

              Its one thing to read the bible another thing to understand what you are reading. Wipe them all out or they will wipe you out, and you know you would do the same thing if you were in that position.

              1. Paul Wingert profile image80
                Paul Wingertposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                It's one thin to read the Bible and another to do a little research outside the Bible and you'll find that over 90% of the Bible stories were stolen from previous religions. Your god was one of 33 worshiped by the Canaanites and was invented in the early Bronze Age, Moses does not exist outside the Bible and the Egyptians never heard of him or ever kept Hebrews as slaves and Jesus was created by the councils commissioned by the Roman Emperors throughout the 3rd Century.

      2. Claire Evans profile image91
        Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

        But didn't God create him perfect? How can a perfect being sin? No evil can exist in heaven so how did Lucifer get the thought to rebel against God? It must mean that evil preceded Lucifer and thus God is the author of evil.

        1. BuddiNsense profile image59
          BuddiNsenseposted 15 months ago in reply to this

          Exactly, your god and Lucifer are the same being.

          1. Claire Evans profile image91
            Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

            Playing devil's advocate here.  If it is true that God made Lucifer, then God is the author of evil.  HOWEVER, since it is not true, God did not create Lucifer.

            1. BuddiNsense profile image59
              BuddiNsenseposted 15 months ago in reply to this

              Lucifer is a biblical invention and though various Christians have made use of him we have no information about him outside of the bible.
              The OT version of god fit the definition of evil and your one fit the definition of a human fraud. So the concept included in Christian Lucifer/satan is no different from their god versions.
              God do not create evil.
              However,  if god is the creator, and there are exceptions to what he has created then he is not god. On the other hand,  if it is as you say, there are two beings then why stop it at two, there may be three or four or five?  Moreover we have never heard from the good guy, the books purported fro the god guy is all fraud not to mention evil.

              1. Claire Evans profile image91
                Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                That's semantics.  We have always been taught in Christianity that the Holy Father is God because that's the Christian belief.  That God is the supreme being.  He is not the only omniscient, omnipresent being.  Are we to say God gave Satan that power if God is the supreme power? If so, that is disgusting.

                You think Jesus is a fraud because you WANT to believe it.  Some of your arguments are just plain ridiculous like the "swoon" theory about the crucifixion which is not even medically possible.   Jesus requires a moral high standard of living and complete abandonment of ourselves and people just don't like that so they justify themselves by saying Jesus is evil.

                1. BuddiNsense profile image59
                  BuddiNsenseposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                  That is disgusting so you believe what you want to believe? Yes, it is taught in Christianity like that but that doesn't change the fact that the character of god in Christianity is satanic. God is the supreme being but he is not omniscient nor omnipresent that terms itself are meaningless. There is no Satan, there are simply powerful beings, probably aliens who is no different from the tyrants of earth, they are simply looking after themselves.


                  Jesus is a fraud because he claims to be god or son of god. God do not have sons. It may be that he died and his followers hallucinated that he was alive, if he was really alive after 36 hours there is no point in saying he was dead in the first place. He do not require any high standards, his standards are no different from any other charlatans, preach and practice something entirely different.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image91
                    Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    Is it Yahweh or Jesus that is Satanic? You talk about aliens.  Well, the literal translation of the OT sees Yahweh is an alien.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MXLB6 … r_embedded

                    A supreme being is not omniscient or omnipresent? For a divine entity, omniscience and omnipresence is not hard.  Who is this supreme being to you? The supreme alien? Where does evil come from? You say God in Satanic but you don't believe in Satan.






                    How do you know God doesn't have a son? Why do you think that's impossible? The followers hallucinated? Were they all smoking something? So now you admit that Jesus may have died.  That's progress. 

                    Give me an example of what He preached that was contrary to His practices.

        2. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 15 months ago in reply to this

          It is stated in scripture that God created Lucifer perfect in all his ways, but what seems to be hard for most people to understand is that being created perfect also comes with free will. You ask: how can a perfect being sin? But in order to be able to answer that question we must first know what perfection really is. Since there’s nothing perfect in this world to compare perfection to, how can we really know what perfect is? Does being created perfect means it’s impossible for that being to sin? We have no way of knowing because we don’t truly know what perfect is. Who says that no evil exist in heaven?

          There are three heavens referred to in scripture, when heaven is mentioned in scripture the first thing that comes to most minds is “The Third Heaven? This is the Throne of God, no evil exist there, but the heaven where this evil is taking place is in the “Second Heaven” among the stars, the home of the sons of God. There is much evil among this second heaven and also the first heaven, the atmosphere surrounding the earth “the First Heaven” Remember, Lucifer said; I will ascend into heaven, Lucifer was not in heaven when he declared war on heaven. There was evil in Lucifer’s, but no sin in heaven because Lucifer had to Claim to, to ascend to that place. So the sin was in Lucifer but not in heaven. When Lucifer tried to ascend into the “Third Heaven” that’s when war broke out. If Lucifer was already in heaven, why would he have to ascend to a place he was already in? Lucifer lived among the created order, among the stars, it is from here that he planned is revolt. So first since we can’t know perfection being imperfect, and since it’s impossible for any imperfect being to know what perfection is or what it includes or excludes, we will never know because we can never reach or measure perfection by using the imperfect to understand the perfect. Maybe perfection does include the right to sin. We don’t know because its way beyond our great imperfections to understand. There are many unknowns in this creation and entire universe, for anyone with a finite mind [as we all have] to think we need to understand every working of and reasoning of the creator and think just because the creator didn’t create the way we think he should have, they can find nothing of worth in him. Maybe that person is thinking to highly of themselves, and trying to judge the infinite with a finite mind, the perfect wind with the imperfect mind. We can never all that perfection includes or excludes, imperfect could never understand perfection!

          It tell you right there in scripture how Lucifer became full of sin; it was because of pride in his beauty. The bible states that he was perfect in beauty and because of that pride in his beauty he desired to be worship, or be king, to be ruler of creation. No, evil did not preceded Lucifer, it is a creation of Lucifer. The vanity that’s taking place in Hollywood didn’t start with the invention of television and moving pictures, it started with the most beautiful being ever created. For me nothing else explains the evils of the world, how it began and what is the solution and the climax of it all. Once we can experience perfection than we will be in a better position to explain what it includes and excludes.

          1. Claire Evans profile image91
            Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

            Where in the scriptures did God create Lucifer perfect in all his ways? Free will only comes into play when one is capable of doing evil and doing good.  Can God be tempted? Can He not do what He wants with His free will? Perfect beings abhor evil.  They would never ever chose to do evil. 

            We can compare perfection by using God as a yardstick.  He is perfect.  Now if you say it is possible for God to sin, then you don't know Him.  Perfection means one can't be tempted to do evil.

            Wow! You think evil may exist in heaven? Evil cannot stand the light.  Satan cannot come anywhere near God! God in His perfection can never be present in hell but somehow evil can dwell in God's kingdom? Are you telling me that filthy Satan is roaming about in God's kingdom right now? That's shocking.   That must mean there are still angels today rebelling.




            Scriptures, please. Ah, so the second heaven is the home of the sons of god? The sons of god were demons.  That makes sense.  However, the sons of gods never were in God's kingdom.  God doesn't dwell there so there could be no rebellion against God there when He was present because He never was there in the first place.  You know what heaven I was talking about.  The kingdom of God.  If no evil can exist in the kingdom of God, then why did Lucifer commit an evil act?




            You see, you argument is actually moot because you are referring to Isaiah 14:13-15:

            12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
            13   For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
            14   I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
            15   Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

            The name Lucifer was never in the original Hebrew text.  This is how it goes:

            How you are fallen from heaven,[b] O Day Star, son of Dawn! 9/b]How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’



            14:12 ëykh' näfal'Tä miSHämayim hëylël Ben-shächar nig'Da'Tä lääretz chôlësh al-Gôyim

            http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testam … ah/14.html

            Heylel, or Helel, is translated as "a shining one"

            http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1966.htm

            The King James translation goes like this:

            How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

            The name Lucifer was only included in the 4 AD. 

            "This reflects how the Latin word Lucifer was used in classic Roman poetry, such as this passage from Virgil (Georgics, III, 324-325):

            Luciferi primo cum sidere frigida rura
            carpamus, dum mane novum, dum gramina canent

            Let us hasten, when first the Morning Star (Venus) appears,
            To the cool pastures, while the day is new, while the grass is dewy."

            http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

            We see in John 38:32, Lucifer is referred to as an astral constellation.

            Latin Vulgate
            38:32 numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis

            So it is actually King Nebuchadnezzar who is described as Lucifer

            “Lucifer” means “the morning star”, which is the brightest of the stars. In the parable, this star proudly decides to “ascend (higher) into heaven...exalt my throne above the (other) stars of God” (v. 13). Because of this, the star is cast down to the earth. The star represents the king of Babylon. Daniel chapter 4 explains how Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, proudly surveyed the great kingdom he had built up, thinking that he had conquered other nations in his own strength, rather than recognizing that God had given him success. “Thy greatness (pride) is grown, and reacheth unto heaven” (v.22). Because of this “he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws” (v. 33). This sudden humbling of one of the world’s most powerful men to a deranged lunatic was such a dramatic event as to call for the parable about the falling of the morning star from heaven to earth. Stars are symbolic of powerful people, e.g. Genesis 37: 9; Isaiah 13:10 (concerning the leaders of Babylon); Ezekiel 32: 7 (concerning the leaders of Egypt); Daniel 8:10, cp. v. 24. Ascending to heaven and falling from heaven are Biblical idioms often used for increasing in pride and being humbled respectively - see Job 20: 6; Jeremiah 51:53 ( about Babylon); Lamentations 2 :1; Matthew 11:23 (about Capernaum): “Thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell” (the grave). Adam Clarke's commentary rightly notes: "The truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall... but of the pride, arrogance and fall of Nebuchadnezzar".

            http://www.realdevil.info/5-5.htm



            Pride and beauty? That's from Ezekiel 28?  That's talking about King Tyre, not Lucifer.


            "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19).

            How could Lucifer have been perfect in the Garden of Eden? He had already rebelled against God and was in the form of the serpent.  With anointed cherub, is the Lord not saying King Tyre had a angel guardian? When King Tyre sinned, the guardian cherub drove him out.  Is Lucifer a physical being? Otherwise, how could people be appalled at him when they saw him? Satan is still around.  he has not yet come to a dreadful end.

            This does not gel with the Adam and Eve story.

            How could Lucifer create evil? Is not God the creator of all things?  Did He not create Lucifer with the propensity to sin? Should God be blamed?

            1. r-o-y profile image82
              r-o-yposted 15 months ago in reply to this

              How can you know just what a perfect being is capable of? How do you know just what perfect includes and excludes, being imperfect yourself? Who says perfect beings are incapable of sinning? There was only one man after Adam who claim perfection, and according to scripture, he was tempted to sin, but refused to sin, that one was Jesus the Christ! It is said in scripture that he was tempted like all men, so if he, being a perfect being could be tempted by sin, then I would think that the being he created perfect, Lucifer could also be tempted by sin.

              It’s apparent that not all perfect beings abhor evil or Lucifer would have taken the same road as Jesus and reject temptation. Free-will means just what it states; you are free to choose good or evil, how else could it be called free-will?   You are free to choose between the two just as Adam had the free-will to choose between good and evil. It is your free-will right for you to choose whom you will love, Jesus or Lucifer [Satan!] God will not force anyone to love him that is every being’s choice to make. There are only two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Hell, everyone decides for himself which kingdom he or she finds more attractive and love more than the other, or what government they desire to be a citizen of. You don’t know what a perfect being is capable of, it’s something you’ve never experienced and never will ion this life. The only way to know what perfect is, is to be perfect. Perfection may include a lot more than you think.

              I never said that evil exist in heaven, I explained to you that the Third Heaven where the Family of God is, there is no evil. I explained to you that this evil exist in the First and second Heaven, the home of Lucifer and all creation, among the stars which includes us. It is obvious that the First Heaven is full of evil. You say that Satan cannot come anywhere near God, but I would advise you take some timeout and read the Book of Job.” In it is stated that the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan was among them”  not only can Satan stand light he even constantly transforms himself into a being of light, appearing as Lucifer who was one the Light-Bearer of God! His former self! Please don’t play that game of claiming I stated something that I didn’t!

              You say that God in his perfection can never be present in hell, but God entered hell when he died on the cross. He entered hell and preached to spirits who were disobedient in times of old! King David asked the question; where do I hide from your face, if I make my bed in hell even there I could not flee from you. There’s no place that God can’t be, I would advise you to read the Book of Peter and there you will find that Jesus [God] went to hell when he was murdered on the cross!

              You are making up a lot of stuff here, I never said that Satan is roaming around in the Third Heaven, but he is roaming around in the First and Second Heaven and has just about captured the minds of all mankind. There are no rebellious angels in heaven. Why do you continue to claim that I have said these things when it’s all there in black and white that I never said these things!



              There are two things you are confusing here, the Kingdom of God and the Throne of God!! You are living in the Second Heaven [among the stars] are you saying that you are a demon? Earth is among the stars, the created order, the home of created beings which, me, you and Lucifer are all a part of. Speaking of something that doesn’t make sense is your next statement:

              “The sons of God were never in God’s Kingdom”

              How could they be called sons of God and not be citizens of the Kingdom of God? To be sons of God is to be adopted members of God’s Family and in the Kingdom of God. I never said that no evil can exist in the Kingdom of God, but at the throne of God. Earth is a part of the Kingdom of God even though it’s in rebellion against God, all creation is the Kingdom of God, but all creation is not at the Throne of God. Third Heaven is the Throne of God beyond the stars, but the Kingdom of God includes the entire Universe and all that’s created, but the entire Universe is not at the Throne of God. This is where your confusion is in knowing the difference between the two.

              Your question:

              “If no evil can exist in the kingdom of God, then why did Lucifer commit an evil act?”

              Again, here you are confusing the kingdom of God with the Throne of God. Evil existed in the earth even before the man had committed any sin, the fact that Lucifer was in the garden lying and cussing God proves that the earth was full of sin even before the man sinned. So there was sin in many parts of creation, God’s Kingdom, but not in the Third Heaven, the Throne of God! You must be able to see the difference between the two, one is perfect [the Throne of God] the other is sinful, the created order [our physical Universe].

              Your next question:

              “If no evil can exist in the kingdom of God, then why did Lucifer commit an evil act?”

              This has already been explained, I never said that evil cannot exist in God’s Kingdom, but at the Throne of God, the Third Heaven beyond the created order, beyond the stars. God’s Kingdom which includes the earth is full of evil, but not his throne, the Third Heaven. The king’s throne is one thing and his kingdom outside his palace is another. But it’s all his kingdom, things you would do outside the king’s palace [his throne] you would never think of doing in his presence. Outside the king’s palace is his kingdom where there is much killing and stealing, but at his throne you had better behave yourself or you might find your head rolling up the floor dis-connected from your body. In his outer kingdom you might do these things, but before his throne you had better behave yourself or you could be condemned on the spot, and still it’s all his kingdom. There’s no sin at the Throne of God, but his outer kingdom is full of sin. The sin in Lucifer was not created in the Third Heaven where there is no sin, but form Lucifer’s home the Second Heaven that is full of the sin that Lucifer created!

              Your post:

              “You see, you argument is actually moot because you are referring to Isaiah 14:13-15:

              12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
              13   For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
              14   I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
              15   Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”



              The name Lucifer was never in the original Hebrew text.  This is how it goes:

              How you are fallen from heaven,[b] O Day Star, son of Dawn! 9/b]How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

              My respond:

              What is the difference between the first stated verses of scripture and the second that you posted? The only difference is what name one which to call this evil being of LIGHT, Day Star, son of the Dawn or Lucifer!  The name Lucifer means “LIGHT” and “Day Star” means “LIGHT” and “Dawn” means “LIGHT.” A rose by any other name is still a rose, “Light” by any other name is still “LIGHT”! A particular being of light is still that same being of “LIGHT” no matter what light-name you chose to call him by!  No matter what name you chose to call him by he is still the same being of Light that fell from heaven. 

              You refer to John 38, to prove your point that that Lucifer is referred to as an astral constellation. I never heard of anything like this in scripture, and definitely not in the 38 chapter of John because in my bible there is no 38 chapter of John. In my bible there are only 21 chapters, what bible are you reading from? I see you refer to the corrupt Vulgate Bible. The Vulgate Bible has nothing to do with the Christian Bible. The Vulgate Bible is a production of the Pope of Rome, the Pope and his Catholic Church worship a god called Mary the Queen of Heaven. This is the same mother god that most of the pagan world worship.

              This bible you refer to [Vulgate] know nothing of the things of god, the producers of this corrupted bible even defy the God of Heaven to this day by calling up the dead [the saints] and even worshiping them. What kind of bible would you expect to get from them, one that exults Lucifer and condemns God! This church that produced this bible you use is no part of the Church of Christ. This church that produced the bible has even changed the Ten Commandments of God so that they can worship demons. This Catholic Church that produce the bible you used has thrown out the commandment that states; “thy shall not bow down and worship other Gods” and replaced it with the command to worship mortal man, they pray to and worship the saints and angels, Lucifer the Dark Angel! Their bible can in no-wise be in agreement with the Holy Bible. It is here where you error!

              Your post:

              “So it is actually King Nebuchadnezzar who is described as Lucifer”

              “Lucifer” means “the morning star”, which is the brightest of the stars. In the parable, this star proudly decides to “ascend (higher) into heaven...exalt my throne above the (other) stars of God” (v. 13). Because of this, the star is cast down to the earth. The star represents the king of Babylon. Daniel chapter 4 explains how Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, proudly surveyed the great kingdom he had built up, thinking that he had conquered other nations in his own strength, rather than recognizing that God had given him success. “Thy greatness (pride) is grown, and reacheth unto heaven” (v.22). Because of this “he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws” (v. 33). This sudden humbling of one of the world’s most powerful men to a deranged lunatic was such a dramatic event as to call for the parable about the falling of the morning star from heaven to earth. Stars are symbolic of powerful people, e.g. Genesis 37: 9; Isaiah 13:10 (concerning the leaders of Babylon); Ezekiel 32: 7 (concerning the leaders of Egypt); Daniel 8:10, cp. v. 24. Ascending to heaven and falling from heaven are Biblical idioms often used for increasing in pride and being humbled respectively - see Job 20: 6; Jeremiah 51:53 ( about Babylon); Lamentations 2 :1; Matthew 11:23 (about Capernaum): “Thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell” (the grave). Adam Clarke's commentary rightly notes: "The truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall... but of the pride, arrogance and fall of Nebuchadnezzar".

              Your post:

              “Lucifer” means “the morning star”, which is the brightest of the stars. In the parable, this star proudly decides to “ascend (higher) into heaven...exalt my throne above the (other) stars of God” (v. 13). Because of this, the star is cast down to the earth. The star represents the king of Babylon. Daniel chapter 4 explains how Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, proudly surveyed the great kingdom he had built up, thinking that he had conquered other nations in his own strength, rather than recognizing that God had given him success.”

              My response:

              At what time were Nebuchadnezzar ever in heaven? If the king was never in heaven how could he be cast out of heaven? God was not speaking directly to the king but to the being of light that had taken over the king’s soul. The being that God is speaking to is called a cherub by God, the king is a man, and a cherub is a being of a totally different creation. The king have never been a cherub! If the king was casted down to the earth, where was he casted down from since he’s never been in heaven? Nowhere in the Book of Daniel is the king ever mentioned as being that being that fell from heaven and did weaken the nations! How can any mortal man continue to cause evil in the earth from the time the Lord uttered these words to the time of the end, thousands of years? God identified this evil being as the one who would case much war and death in the world even until the end of the world, no man lives that long.

              The Lord says this being was created perfect, surely the king wasn’t created perfect and nor is any other mortal man. So God could not have been referring to either one of the mortal kings.

              Your post:

              “Pride and beauty? That's from Ezekiel 28?  That's talking about King Tyre, not Lucifer.”

              This has already been discussed.
                 
              Your post:

              "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19).

              My response:

              When was the king ever in the Garden of Eden, how could God be addressing the mortal king at this point.

              Your post:

              “How could Lucifer have been perfect in the Garden of Eden? He had already rebelled against God and was in the form of the serpent.  With anointed cherub, is the Lord not saying King Tyre had a angel guardian? When King Tyre sinned, the guardian cherub drove him out.  Is Lucifer a physical being? Otherwise, how could people be appalled at him when they saw him? Satan is still around.  he has not yet come to a dreadful end.”

              My response:

              I never stated that Lucifer was perfect when he was in the garden, I said that at his beginning he was created perfect but he did not abide in that perfection. By the time the man saw created, Lucifer had already been in a devastating war with heaven that destroyed the first earth, Lucifer’s home before the man came on the scene.

              Your post:

              “With anointed cherub, is the Lord not saying King Tyre had a angel guardian? When King Tyre sinned, the guardian cherub drove him out.”

              My response:

              Again, a cherub is of a different created order than mortal man, a cherub is a spirit being of a higher order than man, man is a physical being, beings of two different order. Whenever Jesus encounter an evil spirit being that had taken control of another’s soul he talked to the person possessed and the evil spirit being that had taken control of the person. Jesus even ask the evil spirit its name before making it depart from the person, he than instructs the person in living the life that would make it impossible for any other evil spirit being to ever enter again.

              First in the group of verses of scriptures God addresses the mortal man and told him that Lucifer lied to him when he said that he has become a god and that he would die the death of any other mortal because he is no god. Now as you continues to read you come the part that is now under discussion we find that he now do as he’s does throughout the New Testament, he addresses the evil being that has invaded the man’s soul. There always three-way communication whenever a demon possessed person is contacted by the Lord. The Lord talks to the possessed person and through the possessed person he address the evil spirit that has invaded the person’s soul. Here the Lord first address the mortal man and then the evil being that have entered the man’s house to destroy it! It was a common practice with Jesus!

              Your post:

              Is Lucifer a physical being? Otherwise, how could people be appalled at him when they saw him? Satan is still around.  he has not yet come to a dreadful end.”

              My response:

              Yes Lucifer is a physical being when he take possession of a mortal, everything the mortal experience the devil does. That’s why he must be driven out. Before he is driven out the person can take on the appearance of the demon and from ever account I’ve heard or witnessed he or it is very appalling!! The bible tells us when this prince of devil will be casted into the lake of fire, it after World War III starts, when man is on the verge of destroying himself with his great inventions, it is at that time the Lord will step in and destroy the works of Lucifer!

              Lucifer and Lucifer is the same being!

              1. Claire Evans profile image91
                Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                It's not hard to know what a perfect being is.  The Holy Spirit is perfect.  God is not capable of sinning.  If we think that a perfect being by God can sin then that being was created with evil in him.  That means God is responsible for all the evil in the world.

                The Adam and Eve story is not from the Hebrews.  It is a pagan Sumerian creation story that was copied by the Hebrews.  The only way that Jesus could be tempted is because He took on the nature of man.  He was exposed to evil on earth.  God cannot be tempted as He does not have the nature of man to sin. 

                Now Lucifer was supposed to be in heaven with God.  There can be no temptation to sin in God's kingdom.  Now if Lucifer was tempted to sin, who tempted him? No evil was supposed to have existed then unless you think God created evil and set up this world to fail. 



                As I said, you can only be tempted to do evil if you reside on earth as it is the fallen world.  The world where Satan rules.  You can't be tempted in heaven as no Satan exists there.  Free will only came into being when mankind was corrupted.  How can you choose evil if no evil existed in the first place like in heaven? Do you not understand? Evil cannot be anywhere near the Lord in His heavenly kingdom.  Therefore there could be no temptation or rebellion. 

                Now that I have a fallen nature, I have free will to choose who I want to serve, which is either Jesus or Satan.   







                The concept of Satan in Judaism and in Christianity is completely different.  Satan is not evil to the Jews.  He is merely an agent of God who puts hard times in people's lives to test them and spiritually refine them.  This is not the same being in Christianity.  Jesus said in John 8:44:

                "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

                Satan cannot possibly be an ally of God.  A lot of your references come from the OT but let me warn you there is a lot of pagan and occult influences in it.



                We know that Jesus went to hell, not God.  Jesus said to the Lord on the cross:

                Matthew 27:45-46, "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

                This is the thing.  Hell is the complete separation from God.  No one with sin can be near the Father.  That is why Jesus went to hell because He had all of our sin.  I know God and Jesus are considered one but they are just two parts of the Trinity with the Holy Spirit.  They each have separate roles even though they are one.  Jesus had a separate role from the Lord.  He prayed to the Father.  He can't pray to Himself. 

                Is it from the Book of Peter that you get the idea that God ministered to evil spirits? They don't want to hear it.  They are from the devil.  They hate Him. 



                Yes, but wasn't Lucifer originally in the Third Heaven with God? He is said to be creation of God like the other angels so why would he leave God's kingdom to roam on earth? We know that God's kingdom never had a beginning.  However, earth did so the angels must originally have been in the Third Heaven.  Isn't it mainstream Christianity that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven? He certainly has not been kicked out in the First and Second Heaven.





                Why would I think that would make me a demon? Jesus also shared the Second Heaven with Satan.





                The problem is that you aren't familiar with the literal translation of the Old Testament.  It was originally the sons of the gods.  Here is an example of this:

                Then God said, "Let us make mankind in OUR image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

                We acknowledge that God is the supreme being.  Was there a co-creator? Elohim is actually translated as gods.  We know that that gods did rule the earth. 

                Deuteronomy 10:17

                "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes."

                In fact, Yahweh was just one of many gods who owned different territories.  He is the offspring of the Caananite God, El. 

                What I'm trying to say here, is that the sons of god are actually extraterrestrials.   I'm going to refer you to the literal translation of the OT:

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MXLB6 … r_embedded

                The Book of Enoch seems to support the notion that aliens interbred with humans. 

                "And after some days my son, Methuselah, took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore him a son. And his body was white as snow and red as a rose; the hair of his head as white as wool and his demdema (‘long curly hair’) beautiful; and as for his eyes, when he opened them the whole house glowed like the sun ...

                And his father, Lamech, was afraid of him and fled and went to Methuselah his father; and he said to him,

                “I have begotten a strange son. He is not like an (ordinary) human being, but he looks like the children of the angels of heaven to me, his form is different, and he is not like us ... It does not seem to me that he is of me, but of angels..."

                The narrative begins just after the strange birth as Lamech starts voicing his suspicions concerning the suspected infidelity of his wife, here named as Bathenosh - and referred to also as his sister - for he says:

                “Behold, I thought then within my heart that conception was (due) to the Watchers and the Holy Ones ... and to the Nephilim . . . and my heart was troubled within me because of this child.”

                http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/enoch/esp_enoch_7.htm

                It is accepted that the sons of god were not humans and were evil.   As he know, the union between them and the daughters of men created the Nephilim.

                You said earth is part of the Kingdom of God but Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."  So you are completely wrong about that.  The Kingdom of God is a place not creation.  The Throne of God is in the Kingdom of God.  Rev 4:2




                As I said, the Adam and Eve story is taken from pagan sources.  The serpent was never claimed to be Satan or Lucifer.  Satan is an ally of God in Judaism.  Who is the source of sin? Lucifer or God? For if God creates everything, then He is, right?



                Jesus said His kingdom is not of this earth.  It is a spiritual kingdom, not that which includes the earth.   It means righteousness and holiness.  So the Third heaven is a place but the Kingdom of God is spiritual. 

                Matthew 6:33

                "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

                How can Lucifer create sin? If he was the creator of sin, who tempted him? Evil existed prior to him then.



                The difference is that Lucifer is not mentioned in the original.  It is only much later that Lucifer was associated with the light.   All royalty was associated with the stars and planets.  King Nebuchadnezzar, as a royal, was compared to a heavenly body, too. 

                "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."  Jesus is of the bloodline of King David.  Of course He isn't Lucifer.  King Nebachnezzar, as a royal, was also associated with the morning star. 

                The star Regulus was known as “the King.” The Romans referred to it as “Rex,” which means “King” in Latin. In Arabia the star was known as the “Kingly One.” The Greeks called it the “King Star.” Of all the stars in the heavens, Regulus was universally associated by the ancient astrologers with the attributes of greatness and power. It is located practically on the ecliptic (the path which the Sun takes in traversing the heavens). It was thought that this position made it of special importance to the Sun. According to astrologers the Sun ruled the heavens. Thus, the major star closest to the ecliptic of the “ruling” Sun was Regulus. This close relationship to the Sun made Regulus a “royal star,” the one most associated with the conception or birth of kings. It was the star denoting rulership.

                That is why we have the story of a star leading the wise men to Jesus. 

                http://www.askelm.com/star/star004.htm#_edn1




                I meant Job 38:32.  Job 38: 4-7

                “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
                    Tell me, if you understand.
                5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
                    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
                6 On what were its footings set,
                    or who laid its cornerstone—
                7 while the morning stars sang together
                    and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

                We know Job cannot be referring to Lucifer.




                The OT we have today is also corrupted:


                http://www.renaissance.com.pk/Novscript2y3.html

                As I said,  Lucifer was introduced into Latin in 4 AD.  That is why the Latin Vulgate included it.








                What heaven are we talking about? Can't be the third heaven as no evil can exist there.  You have conceded that.  Is it the second and first heaven where evil exists?   If this is where Lucifer has always been, how could he have been cast down to it?  Ascending and descending into heaven is an idiom.  It is used to represent the rise and fall of the proud.  For example:



                Matthew 11:23

                And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.


                Lamentations 2:1

                How the Lord has covered Daughter Zion with the cloud of his anger! He has hurled down the splendor of Israel from heaven to earth; he has not remembered his footstool in the day of his anger.

                There's no indication that God was speaking to Lucifer because of Nebuchadnezzar.   Why would God give Lucifer success?   

                Nowhere in the Book of Daniel is the king ever mentioned as being that being that fell from heaven and did weaken the nations!

                Let's look at Daniel 4:19-23

                Belteshazzar answered, “My lord [Nebuchadnezzar], if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the wild animals, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds— 22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

                23 “Your Majesty saw a holy one, a messenger, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump, bound with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field, while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven; let him live with the wild animals, until seven times pass by for him.’

                Compare this to Isaiah 14:12

                “How you are fallen from heaven,
                O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
                How you are cut down to the ground,
                You who weakened the nations!

                So you see Nebuchadnezzar tried to ascend into heaven.  The tree, symbolically him, touched the sky but it was cut down and descended to heaven.   That represents going down to Sheol. 

                Verse 22 in Daniel 4 says:

                22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

                Isaiah 14: 16-17

                “Those who see you will gaze at you,
                And consider you, saying:
                ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
                Who shook kingdoms,
                17 Who made the world as a wilderness
                And destroyed its cities,
                Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

                So we see that King Nebuchadnezzar did weaken kingdoms.




                We'd you get the 1000 years part? Lucifer is not a man like Isaiah says in verse 16. 

                Isaiah 14: 18-20


                18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.

                So we see Isaiah is talking about a king who has died (cast out of your tomb) and is rather covered with the slain.  He will not be buried because of his slaying.   If we are talking about Lucifer, then Lucifer is dead.






                You said perfect doesn't mean sinless.  You said how can we know what perfect is?



                Not satisfactory.
                   


                How could Lucifer have great skills in trading? Since when did God dress Lucifer in gems?  Wasn't he the serpent in the Garden of Eden?  I don't think a snake is beautiful.

                Verse 9 in Ezekiel 28 says:

                Will you then say, “I am a god,”
                    in the presence of those who kill you?
                You will be but a mortal, not a god,
                    in the hands of those who slay you.


                So how can Lucifer rule for a 1000 years when he was slain?

                Being dressed in gems is likened to stones set in the breastplate of the high priest of Israel (Exodus 28:17-21)

                They symbolized the twelve tribes of Israel (Ex. 39:14). The king of Tyre walked in the midst of these stones of fire when he moved among the children of Israel.




                Lucifer couldn't have been perfect at his beginning. 

                John 8:44

                You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

                Where in the Bible does it say Lucifer had a devastated the earth because of war?




                In this case, the cherubim were figures on the Mercy Seat, or the Tabernacle.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth’ (v. 14). The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat (Ex. 37: 7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece (Ex. 25:19-20)
                The suggestion may be that Tyre as a great mercantile power [great skill in trading] was privileged to cast its ‘wings’ over Israel. It was the abuse of this exalted position that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre (vs. 4-5).

                http://www.realdevil.info/5-6.htm



                There is no evidence, obviously, that Lucifer died a violent death (vs 8)This cannot be referring to Lucifer.   He never died at the hands of foreigners. 



                No, only a spirit can possess someone.  You cannot be a physical being in another being.

                1. r-o-y profile image82
                  r-o-yposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                  I believe it’s very hard to know just what a perfect being really is. True the Holy Spirit is a perfect being and people claim to know the Holy Spirit but preach a doctrine contrary to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. In that process they prove that they really don’t know the Holy Spirit and even further from knowing what perfection is. You can never know all that perfection in no more that you can know all that the Holy Spirit is. When it comes to God being incapable of sinning you must be referring to my statement that Jesus [who is God in the flesh] was tempted to sin, you must remember that Jesus was also man! The fleshly part of him [according scripture] was tempted as all other men.  You make great claims of knowing all the mysteries of the godhead.

                  Why is it so hard to for people to understand the word of God, which clearly states that God created beings to love and serve him? These beings must have a free-will to do good or evil, if they were force to love and obey the Lord, they would be robots and probably incapable of truly knowing what love is. Forced love never works, filling a woman with fear to make her stay with you never truly win that woman’s love, it’s a forced kind of love that goes against her free will to choose whom she will love, and this forced love will not work.

                  God will not force his creatures to love and obey him, that kind of love never works in his kingdom. The person must be free to choose to love Lucifer if that’s their choice, what is so hard to understand about this. We are not robots, but potential gods in the making. You can continue to make the claim that because there is evil in the world that God is the creator of evil or an evil creator because it just proves that you really don’t know the Holy Spirit so therefore you can’t even began to know what perfect is and is not. You said it yourself that the Holy Spirit is perfect and yet you calls him a liar when you state that it is he who created all the evil in the world. This same Holy Spirit that you claim to know so much about states clearly in his world that the world is full of evil and it was not the Lord who created this evil, if you had known this Spirit you would be closer to knowing what perfection may include and exclude, how can you know perfection when the one you claim is perfect you call a liar?

                  How many time do we have to go over this? How many times do I have to explain to you that this sin did not start at the Throne of God, the Third Heaven? Again, Lucifer lived among the stars, the home of created beings, remember he had to try to ascend into heaven. I’m going to ask the question again until you give me an answer. You keep making the claim that Lucifer was in heaven when he sinned, blaming God for Lucifer’s sin. When the one who you claim is perfect says in his word that Lucifer has said that he will ascend into heaven. That was the moment when he sinned, again, if he was already in heaven why would he have to ascend into heaven?

                  In you trying to prove that God is the creator of sin because there’s sin in his creation, you prove you know nothing of the Holy Spirit or His Perfection. Again, you ask the question of who tempted Lucifer. The one who you claim to be perfect has already explained that it was Lucifer’s beauty that he was tempted by and a desire to be worshiped because of that beauty. How much clearly can the one who you claim to be perfect be? When you try to prove an unscriptural doctrine you may be accountable for more than you might think.  You constantly contradict everything that Perfect states and yet claim to know perfection.

                  Now we’ve already gone into how Satan do have access to God in certain situations as shown in the Book of Job and you have not come back with a response to that except:

                  “You can't be tempted in heaven as no Satan exists there”

                  You say free-will only came into being when mankind was corrupted, again contradicting the one you say is perfect. It is clear from the word of the Holy Spirt that Lucifer used his free-will to corrupt even before the man and creation had fallen. Even when the man was in his innocent state, Lucifer was using his free-will to call his creator a liar. How can you claim to know what perfection is when you constantly calls the one you say is perfect a liar? Do you see the confusion in your doctrine? You ask the same question again; How can you chose evil if no evil exist in the first place in heaven?  I have already address this issue with you more than once. Don’t yet stuck!

                  Again you are repeating the same thing over. You claim that Satan cannot be anywhere near God but again, the only one that you claim is perfect states that “the sons of God came and presented themselves before the Lord and Satan was among them” please response to this first before asking the same question again. The Book of Job states that Satan do have access to God under certain circumstances. This is in the book that’s inspired by the one that you claim is perfect and you continues to call him a liar.

                  You claim that the concept of Satan in Judaism and in Christianity is completely different. In your words; “Satan is not evil to the Jews.” Your first mistake here is to place all Jews together, there were Jews who loved the Lord and there were Jews who hated the Lord and had him murdered. Which Jews are you referring to? There were Jews who were faithful and obedient to the Lord and there were those Jews who beat the disciple because they would not change the word like you are attempting to do. Which Jews are you referring to? If what you say is true that according to the Jews Satan was merely an agent of God who puts hard times in people lives to test them and spiritually refine them. Then what about the ones that Satan didn’t refine? They lands in hell and are in the end destroyed all because you say God created  a being to test them but only led to their destruction. Who would be responsible for their destruction? It would be the one who created a being with evil in him, that one would be God. That’s apostate Jewish Luciferian hatred of the creator.

                  That have been the goal of all those Jews who rejected God and were in return rejected by God, it is these Jews who you are referring too, they pardon Lucifer [Satan] and lay all the blame on God as you are doing now for all the evil in the world. No Satan is not a servant of God, but there are times in a person’s life when God removes his protective hand and allow Lucifer [Satan] to touch that person since the person has fallen in love with the occult, Satan. In true Christianity there is no pagan and occult influences, but you must know the difference between true Christianity and pagan religions that imitates Christianity.

                  Example;
                  you thought that the Catholic Church was Christian when it never was Christian! It is you who needs to be warned, in your attempt to discredit the Word of God in trying to prove your unsound doctrine. There is much evil in the world and God didn’t create it. According to the only one who you say is perfect, evil was created in the heart of Lucifer. Or is it that the only time that Holy Spirit is perfect when you can twist his words to confirm your unsound doctrine? Either Lucifer [Satan] created evil or God created evil, you make the decision, but you had better be right, who created evil or God?

                  Now I know I can go back in an earlier post and find where you stated that Jesus is God.  But now you claim that Jesus is not God, because now you need to prove a different point and in this point you can’t have Jesus being God because it messes up your argument. Do you see the confusion in trying to prove an unsound doctrine? To prove this point Jesus is God, but to prove another point Jesus is not God. You are all over the place!

                  Your Post:

                  “Matthew 27:45-46, "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

                  My response:

                  Again you contradict the very being you claim is perfect who state that the Son born of the Virgin would be God with us. The being that you claim is perfect states that God purchased us with his own blood, the blood the shed on the cross was the blood of God. The one who you claim is perfect states that in the beginning was the word [Jesus] the word was God and with God. If as you say the Holy Spirit is perfect, everything you have shown thus far is that you are in total contradictory to that which you see as perfect! Again proving that you have no idea of just what perfection would include or exclude! The Fathers is God and that one who proceeds from the very being of the Father must be all that his Father is, he is God!

                  Your statement:

                  “This is the thing.  Hell is the complete separation from God.  No one with sin can be near the Father.  That is why Jesus went to hell because He had all of our sin.  I know God and Jesus are considered one but they are just two parts of the Trinity with the Holy Spirit.  They each have separate roles even though they are one.  Jesus had a separate role from the Lord.  He prayed to the Father.  He can't pray to Himself.”

                  My response:

                  Much of what you stated here is true, but you have introduced error here. First of all Jesus is Lord of All, so he cannot have a separate role from that which he is. He is Lord! Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity, the Family of God, Jesus is always subject to his Father, but all that the Father is he is for he proceed from the Father. In Jesus God when to hell in our place, defeated Lucifer and took back the lives Lucifer had stolen, only God is capable of this! No, Jesus was not praying to himself but to his Father. Remember, Jesus had to leave his power in heaven, and live like other men on earth, depending on the Father for everything. But this in no way change the divine nature of Jesus, he both God and man.

                  Your post:

                  “Is it from the Book of Peter that you get the idea that God ministered to evil spirits? They don't want to hear it.  They are from the devil.  They hate Him.”

                  My response:

                  The point is not if they believe the gospel or not, God said to preach this gospel to every living creature on earth and even under the earth, that includes hell. The one and only one that you claim is perfect states that Jesus entered hell and led those who had been held captive to freedom, so somebody in hell was listening. We are all spirits, some are evil, some not so evil, but none of us are good. We don’t know who will respond to the gospel, we are to be obedient and preach this gospel to everything on the earth and under the earth, in hell!

                  Your post:

                  Yes, but wasn't Lucifer originally in the Third Heaven with God? He is said to be creation of God like the other angels so why would he leave God's kingdom to roam on earth? We know that God's kingdom never had a beginning.  However, earth did so the angels must originally have been in the Third Heaven.  Isn't it mainstream Christianity that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven? He certainly has not been kicked out in the First and Second Heaven.
                  My response:

                  Lucifer’s office was in haven but his home were among the stars, this earth. Even though Lucifer was the most powerful being God had created, he was still a created being and live among creation, among the stars. It is from among this creation that he intended to exult himself and climb his way up to where God is. It seems there were times when he was in heaven and times he wasn’t. There were times he were in the earth, so at what point he was not allowed back into his office we don’t know. But at some point he was locked out and went back to his home the earth.

                  According to scripture, it seems that Lucifer would go to the third heaven when the Lord takes his Thorne, as when the angel came together to worship God or for other business. All angels have work to do, remember, the sons of God came from somewhere to present themselves to God, and they were not at the Throne of God at all times.

                  Pride in one’s looks can cause many problems in a person’s life in the physical world, I believe it’s even more powerful in the spirit world with a being who was the best looking being ever created, the lesson, no matter if its physical or spiritual, pride is destructive. In this, Lucifer’s world we see the same pride that caused the fall of creation. Look at what people do to themselves to look beautiful here in Lucifer’s kingdom. They tattoo themselves from head to toe with blasphemous names, they go to the doctors and have them carve out a whole new face for them to look beautiful. Elvis Presley and Michel Jackson are perfect examples of the length people will go to be beautiful. This is the pride that destroyed the once beautiful Lucifer and God did not create that in him.

                  As I studied the Book of Genesis one thing that caught my attention was the creation story because in that is shown that the earth was Lucifer’s home before it was man’s home. It seems that it was from here in the earth that Lucifer would attempt to ascend from into heaven, the Third Heaven. In the description of the creation of the earth, there is something there that we need to take a close look at. It state that when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was in chaos! Now if the earth was in Chaos and in total darkness something must have caused it to be in that condition. Would God create a world engulfed in total darkness and confusion when scripture clearly states that all his works are perfect?
                  A world engulfed in total darkness and submerged under water doesn’t seem like a perfect world, if it’s in that chaotic state something must have caused it to be in that state. In scripture it seem that in the description of the earth the earth is being resurrected from a watery grave and something had caused this world to be destroyed by water a first time. Now thing about this; there was war in heaven or the heavens which includes the earth. Before this war everything was a heavenly even the physical creation, but it’s still distinct from the Third Heaven. Now as with any war POWs are taken and imprisoned.

                  Where do we find the POWs that warred against God? The prison is in the place where they took their stand against heaven, the earth! The interior of the earth is filled with prison cells of those who tried to war against heaven. Why wasn’t they imprison on Mars or some star system light-years away? Why imprison the POWs in the earth. Earth must have played some role in this rebellion to have the rebels imprisoned here. Remember, at the laying of the foundation of the earth, the sons of God shouted for Joy! Was this joy because the paradise earth was to be part of their home? They really showed a great interest in the creation of the earth. I believe it was this war with heaven that cause the destruction of the earth and caused it to be a chaotic ball of confusion when the spirit of God hovered above it in preparing it for the new inhabitance, the man and his woman. God did not create the earth in that chaotic state, it fell into that state as the result of its war against heaven.

                  Think about it, when God placed the man in the garden, Lucifer was not in the Third Heaven, he was right here on earth! He was here committing sin, calling God an evil creator or a creator of evil as many of his followers do all day long here in these forums. The POW cells are here where Lucifer staged his attack to take heaven by force, and not from the Throne of God, the Third heaven. Remember, when God recreated the earth for man, he planted a garden in the east of the earth and that part of the earth was called paradise and not the entire earth. How could the entire earth be called paradise when inside it is full of prison cell filled with rebellious spirits? The destruction of the earth and its home of POWs is the result of Lucifer’s attack on heaven. The earth was Lucifer’s home before it was Man’s.

                  To Satan this newly created being [the man] is an invader; remember this earth with all of its jail cell and chambers of horrors [hell] was still Satan’s home. Now this newly created inferior being would prove to the on looking angels and the whole universe that Satan and his angels are without excuse.

                  As we look closer at Genesis 1 there is the earth was formless and void.”
                  This word “was” is very important in this study of the recreation of the earth. The word “was” is translated from the Hebrew word hayah, can be translated as was, but in many cases it is translated as become or became:

                  “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became [hayah] a living being.” [Gen 2:7]
                  “But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, l know. He shall become [hayah] a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become [hayah] a multitude of nations.” [Genesis 48:19]

                  “Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became (hayah) four riverheads." [Genesis 2:10]

                  "And I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become (hayah) a flood to destroy all flesh." Genesis 9:15

                  "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become (hayah) like one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lesthe put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" Genesis 3:22

                  "Since Abraham shall surely become (hayah) a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?" [Genesis 18:18]

                  "But his wife looked back behind him, and she became (hayah) a pillar of salt." Genesis 19:26

                  "But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became (hayah) my wife." [Genesis 20:12]

                  "Then Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent; and he took Rebekah and she became (hayah) his wife, and he loved her. So Isaac was comforted after his mother's death." Genesis 24:67

                  “I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies and of all the truth which You have shown Your servant; for I crossed over this Jordan with my staff, and now I have become (hayah) two companies." Genesis 32:10
                  "So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became (hayah) an archer.” Genesis 21:20

                  "Then Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent; and he took Rebekah and she became (hayah) his wife, and he loved her. So Isaac was comforted after his mother's death." Genesis 24:67

                  "Then we will give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to us; and we will dwell with you, and we will become (hayah) one people. Genesis 34:16

                  "Come therefore, let us now kill him and cast him into some pit; and we shall say, 'Some wild beast has devoured him.' We shall see what will become (hayah) of his dreams!" Genesis 37:20

                  “Then Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for every man of the Egyptians sold his field, because the famine was severe upon them. So the land became (hayah) Pharaoh's." Genesis 47:20

                  "And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt to this day, that Pharaoh should have one-fifth, except for the land of the priests only, which did not become (hayah) Pharaoh's.” Genesis 47:26

                  All of these examples of the Hebrew word [hayah] being translated became or become is found in the opening book of the bible, Genesis. There are many more examples of this word hayah being translated to become or became throughout the bible. When we come across a verse of scripture that is hard to understand we need to look to other verse to help clear up the one that’s hard to understand. Example: The way hayah is translated in Genesis 1 would lead one to believe that the God whose works are perfect would create a world in chaos, a world engulfed in darkness, a world that came from the perfect hand of God as a chaotic ball of confusion! We know that all of God’s works are perfect:

                  “As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.” [Psalms 18:30]

                  How would a world created with jail cells [hell] built into its interior to hold vicious demons who are out to destroy God’s creation be called a perfect work? The original created universe, including the earth was perfect when it first came from the hand of the perfect God. Before the creation of man and the rebellion of Lucifer this earth and all of creation was perfect. This original earth had no jail cells because there was no crime in paradise. Somewhere between the creation of the perfect earth and the time it became a dark chaotic mass of confusion a terrible war had marred God’s perfectly created earth. So Genesis 1 properly translated would read:
                  “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth had become without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over face of the waters.” [Gen 1:1-2]

                  Now it begin to make sense since we know that God created the earth perfect and it fell into chaos even before man was created. Remember, when God recreated the earth and prepared it for mankind He took a section in the east and planted a garden there, that part of the earth was called paradise, not the whole earth! How could the whole earth be called paradise when Satan was already in the earth? When God drove them out of paradise [Garden of Eden] they would have just left the garden and entered another section of paradise, but that did not happen, they enter an earth that was full of hell and demons, paradise was guarded by an angel so that they would never enter paradise again until led there by the seed of the woman [Jesus Christ.]

                  It was you who said that all in the created realm are demons, I just asked does this all includes you. Because I know that not all in the created order which includes the first and second heavens are demons. I was just trying to clear up something you said.

                  Your post:
                  The problem is that you aren't familiar with the literal translation of the Old Testament.  It was originally the sons of the gods.  Here is an example of this:

                  Then God said, "Let us make mankind in OUR image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
                  We acknowledge that God is the supreme being.  Was there a co-creator? Elohim is actually translated as gods.  We know that that gods did rule the earth. 

                  Deuteronomy 10:17

                  "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes."

                  In fact, Yahweh was just one of many gods who owned different territories.  He is the offspring of the Caananite God, El.
                  What I'm trying to say here, is that the sons of god are actually extraterrestrials.   I'm going to refer you to the literal translation of the OT.
                  M y response:
                  First of all, show me in whatever translation of the bible you use where it states that Yahweh was just one of many gods, because is clear from Jewish Old Testament that there is only one God. They refuse to even accept the Holy Trinity because in their mistaken minds they believe that this doctrine teaches a multiple of Gods. So what literal translation of the Old Testament are you referring to?
                  Please don’t refer me to some other website because websites are just another person’s opinion, I’m not in a conversation with the publisher of that website I’m in a conversation with you. Just as you can find a website to say what you want to hear, I can do the same thing. There are website to say anything you want to hear, that’s a never ending circle that goes nowhere. I want to hear what you have to say.

                  There is one place in the bible where God seems to be referring to being from another planet invading the earth and that where God describe beings invading the earth to have sex with the women of the earth. But these don’t seem to be the spirit beings that were kicked out of heaven. All the other sons of God were describe as spirit beings, but these being that came down to earth to have sex with women must have been physical beings to produce physical offspring. These beings who willingly left their rightful abode to have sex with women were condemned and imprisoned in the prison cells of the earth.

                  These are the beings that are influencing you and all Luciferians, they are law breakers but you and the Luciferian world are entranced by them. There are types of sons of God here, one type was kicked out of heaven, the other left their home [wherever it was willingly.

                  You post;
                  The Book of Enoch seems to support the notion that aliens interbred with humans. 

                  "And after some days my son, Methuselah, took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore him a son. And his body was white as snow and red as a rose; the hair of his head as white as wool and his demdema (‘long curly hair’) beautiful; and as for his eyes, when he opened them the whole house glowed like the sun ...

                  And his father, Lamech, was afraid of him and fled and went to Methuselah his father; and he said to him,

                  “I have begotten a strange son. He is not like an (ordinary) human being, but he looks like the children of the angels of heaven to me, his form is different, and he is not like us ... It does not seem to me that he is of me, but of angels..."

                  my response:
                  First of all, the Book od Enoch is not the bible, the bible needs no book outside of itself to testify to it,   but it seem to me that this baby you refer to was just a different looking baby from the others, It almost seems they are describing the first albino baby. But there is no indication anywhere in scripture that any baby born [except Jesus] was anything but a mortal sinful baby. How could two humans produce an angel as an offspring when the bible clearly states that each seed produces after its own kind? No two mortal couple can produce an angel this is against the laws of God. This angel worship that’s got you entranced by is a product of the so-called Ascended Masters, fallen angels who are out to take as many of mankind to destruction as possible.

                  The sons of God are both human and spiritual, the only begotten Son of God is a man! Jesus Christ ascended into heaven as a man and there’s nothing in scripture to indicate that he ever changed into something else. It seem from scripture that the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven were spirit sons of God while the beings that left their rightful abode on their own to have sex with women were physical beings or how else could they reproduce physical babies? God have spirit sons and he also have physical sons. You are part of what’s known as the UFO religion of angel worship, the same angels who taught men the art of war that’s got this on the verge of self-destruction. It is this UFO technology that threaten all life on earth. Some gift from these so-called angels of God or are these some of the many God that you claim were before God? Whoever they are, they are liars.

                  Your post:

                  “You said earth is part of the Kingdom of God but Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."  So you are completely wrong about that.  The Kingdom of God is a place not creation.  The Throne of God is in the Kingdom of God.  Rev 4:2”

                  My response:

                  No its you who is wrong again! This verse of scripture simply means that God is not the governing body at this time in world governments. But God’s church which is in this world and is the Kingdom of God, but it’s no part of the kingdoms of this world. What part of the universe did God not create? Every planet, every star, every moon in every star system is in the physical kingdom of God even though they are in rebellion against him. Lucifer is called the god of this world, but Lucifer did not create this world. He is called the god of this world because this world worship Lucifer because the man has been given free-will to love and worship whom he chooses. The world choses to love Lucifer because there are no laws to obey in this kingdom, everything is acceptable in this kingdom. Sin runs wild and gives account to no one at this time in this kingdom.

                  If you are a man and desire sex with another man, in Lucifer’s kingdom this is acceptable and no one better think otherwise or you will be label a bigot, this is from those in Lucifer’s kingdom who claim to have had their freedom of the right to love whom they  will denied them for so long. But in Lucifer’s kingdom these very one deny other’s the God given free-will to their own conscience, to believe that sex is only to be between a man and a woman who in the process produce others in the image of God, for this belief you are labeled a bigot!

                  They gives themselves the right to love whom they will, but denies other to love whom they will. This is just one of the many sinful lifestyles that’s Lucifer’s Kingdom endorses, another is the murder of unborn babies, just sex it up with whomever you pleases and when the babies show up from all that sexing it up, just kill them in the womb because it’s your body and no one can tell you what tom do with it. The killing of so many babies in Lucifer’s kingdom is so horrible!

                  This is just a couple of reasons so many find the worship of Lucifer so attractive, just kill all the babies you want after sexing it up to your satisfaction and kill the babies so they want get in the way of even more sexing it up, and give account to no one for these murders of the innocent! , But there is a day of accountability!  Lucifer offer the deceived many temporary gifts, but in the end they lead to destruction. What star system in the universe would welcome baby killers? Only Lucifer’s lawless government! No, God’s Kingdom is no part of this worldly governments, but God still owns this planet but at this time he does not govern in it because this world wants a government without moral laws. A temporary false high on sinful living!

                  Your post:

                  As I said, the Adam and Eve story is taken from pagan sources.  The serpent was never claimed to be Satan or Lucifer.  Satan is an ally of God in Judaism.  Who is the source of sin? Lucifer or God? For if God creates everything, then He is, right?

                  My response:

                  You claim that the Adam and Eve story was taken from pagan sources, but you fail to show where and how and what pagan source. What you and all other Luciferians fail to understand is that all pagans copy the religion of the bible. You seem to think that the story in the bible began when it was penned by the Hebrews. The story goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden when God told Lucifer that in the end the Lord would crush his head. All Luciferians religions copy the things of Christ to counterfeit them. You see it in the Holy Trinity of 777, Lucifer has counterfeited to it, the unholy trinity of 666. 

                  Who said the serpent claim to be Satan or Lucifer, I know I didn’t! Judaism had corrupted itself by the time Jesus came to this earth. It is the corrupting of Judaism that kept the Hebrews returning to slavery. That’s why there had to be a new covenant, because the Hebrew kept getting caught in the occult, the worship of devils and fallen angels, the deep things of Satan! Judaism had been so corrupted that the priesthood was selling the office of priest to the highest bidder. Judaism was teaching the Jews to through their children into the fires of Moloch, sacrificing them in the flames of Lucifer. Judaism was so corrupt that they had temple prostitutes on hand for all who needed to have sex after the wild drunken parties they would throw after sacrificing their children to Lucifer.

                  For this constant disregard for the life of the little ones that were put in their care, they were condemned and rejected for this. But I don’t expect anyone in Lucifer’s Kingdom to see the wrong in the Hebrew [Judaism] throwing their children into the fires of Moloch when they sanction the killing of innocent babies by the millions today. When you refer to Judaism you are referring to a system of pure corruption, that’s why it was rejected and replaced. In Lucifer’s Kingdom innocent children are murdered by the millions, and you call this a just kingdom, you honor a criminal [Lucifer] and dishonor the Holy Creator. This is Judaism, this is what Judaism is all about to hate all that’s good, and to present evil as good and good as evil. There had to be a new covenant.

                  Your post:

                  “How can Lucifer create sin? If he was the creator of sin, who tempted him? Evil existed prior to him then.”

                  My response:

                  We’ve covered this before; it was pride that created the sin in Lucifer, pride in his beauty and his desire to be divine and worshiped.

                  Your post:

                  “The difference is that Lucifer is not mentioned in the original.  It is only much later that Lucifer was associated with the light.   All royalty was associated with the stars and planets.  King Nebuchadnezzar, as a royal, was compared to a heavenly body, too.”

                  My response:

                  But none of these people ever called a cherub! It was never said of any of these beings that they were in the Garden of Eden. So this is something altogether different here.

                  Your post:
                  "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."  Jesus is of the bloodline of King David.  Of course He isn't Lucifer.  King Nebachnezzar, as a royal, was also associated with the morning star.

                  My response:

                  But he was never called the Morning Star itself. We refer to the actors as stars, but common sense tell us that it’s just a metaphor for one who is worshiped. We know that people are not beings of light, but it is said of Lucifer that was the light bearer of God, something totally different than the stars of Hollywood.

                  Your post:


                  “The star Regulus was known as “the King.” The Romans referred to it as “Rex,” which means “King” in Latin. In Arabia the star was known as the “Kingly One.” The Greeks called it the “King Star.” Of all the stars in the heavens, Regulus was universally associated by the ancient astrologers with the attributes of greatness and power. It is located practically on the ecliptic (the path which the Sun takes in traversing the heavens). It was thought that this position made it of special importance to the Sun. According to astrologers the Sun ruled the heavens. Thus, the major star closest to the ecliptic of the “ruling” Sun was Regulus. This close relationship to the Sun made Regulus a “royal star,” the one most associated with the conception or birth of kings. It was the star denoting rulership.”

                  My response:

                  What does all this proves? I think I just covered this!

                  Your post:
                  “Jesus said His kingdom is not of this earth.  It is a spiritual kingdom, not that which includes the earth.   It means righteousness and holiness.  So the Third heaven is a place but the Kingdom of God is spiritual.  Matthew 6:33”

                  My response:

                  The Kingdom of God is both spiritual and physical, the King of the Universe is a physical man, the Man Jesus the Christ. How can you separate God and his place? Heaven is a place and God’s spiritual kingdom, you can’t separate the two. When those who learn not the deep things of Satan and find themselves in the first resurrection, the resurrection of the blessed into everlasting life they will be there in their physical resurrect bodies. The Kingdom of God is both a spiritual and a physical kingdom.

                  Your post:
                  I meant Job 38:32.  Job 38: 4-7

                  “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
                      Tell me, if you understand.
                  5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
                      Who stretched a measuring line across it?
                  6 On what were its footings set,
                      or who laid its cornerstone—
                  7 while the morning stars sang together
                      and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

                  We know Job cannot be referring to Lucifer.

                  My response:
                  God is asking these question of Job and not of Lucifer, after all the suffering that Lucifer caused to Job, Job began to question heavenly wisdom and believe he was too good to have to suffer. So the Lord was telling Job that he didn’t know what was going on behind the scene. Job realized his sin and repented. These questions was never asked of Lucifer but of Job.

                  Your post:
                  “As I said, Lucifer was introduced into Latin in 4 AD.  That is why the Latin Vulgate included it.”

                  My response:
                  You give no evidence for your statement, you don’t qualify your statement, so how can we discuss it? Show me when and how this was done and then we can discuss it. Who introduce Lucifer in 4 AD? Where was is done, what counsel is responsible for it, I need more information before I can properly respond.

                  Your Post:
                  “What heaven are we talking about? Can't be the third heaven as no evil can exist there.  You have conceded that.  Is it the second and first heaven where evil exists?   If this is where Lucifer has always been, how could he have been cast down to it?  Ascending and descending into heaven is an idiom.  It is used to represent the rise and fall of the proud.”

                  My response:
                  It’s simple, Lucifer was cut down to the ground in that he once travel among the stars, that’s why he thought he could even climb into heaven, the third heaven. But once he sinned such a terrible sin he was cut down to the ground, he is no longer allowed to travel among the star, he imprisoned in the earth, he’s been cut down to the ground! The only time Lucifer can leave this solar system is if he’s summoned to go before the Lord. No, Lucifer intended to literally ascend into the Third Heaven, and yes, he was proud. Lucifer really thought he should be the Christ. To be like God! Only Jesus, the Christ is like God! You can’t possibly know each and detail of all the working of the infinite mind, the finite mind is incapable of comprehending it. The finite mind want to understand each and everything that the infinite mind does and when it can’t get every little detail filled in it puffs up with pride and declare; I will not believe! No matter how much evidence there is in the big picture, this tiny little here is not completely explained to my satisfaction so I will not believe.

                  Now some unidentifiable being shows up in a fancy flying machine with a lot of flashing lights and tells them that it’s from Star System X thirty million light-year away from earth and that it was sent here to help in mankind’s in its spiritual development, it shows them a few advanced fancy tricks and the fall for the con game. It tell the proud soul just what it wants to hear, that they are immortal and have lived many lifetimes, in fact it convinces them that they are God, they even claim the name of the only true God “I AM.”  They now calls themselves the “I AM!” “I will ascend into heaven, I will be like the Most High.” The spirit of Lucifer and the UFO Religion and all who’s souls has been invaded by the evil being of light, Lucifer.  They lust after the Throne of God!

                  It’s almost like a story I read long ago about a tribe in Africa that was always sitting and dancing around a camp-fire. One day a white man show up in a small privet airplane that was having a few problems. Well, he managed to land the plane safety close to the camp site. From the time they was the plane the whole community was bowing down and worshiping this man as a god from outer space. No matter how must the man tried to convince them that he’s a man just like them they were having none of it, they have seen their god from outer space. Now they didn’t know if this man was a serial killer there to kill all of them all they knew is that he was from outer space and advanced so he must be there for their good.
                  This fascination with beings from outer space has truly clouded man’s judgement to the point where he truly believe this stranger’s every word and worship him as God. O’ what a strange religion this Luciferian UFO Religion that has captured the world’s imagination! It has so captured them that they now call good evil and evil good, “blaspheme! They now cuss God to his face and think they are wise. THE SPIRIT OF LUCIFER!
                  Though you exult Lucifer and cuss God to his face, though you call evil good and good evil, though you call the Holy Spirit a liar, it’s still not too late to escape the clutches of the evil being of light Lucifer. Now I know you will probably say that this is ill relevant to the conversation, but this site is about Lucifer, who he really is and who he is not. It’s also about the tricks he plays on mankind to capture their imagination leading them to worship him and cuss the creator to his face.

                  Your post:
                  Lamentations 2:1

                  How the Lord has covered Daughter Zion with the cloud of his anger! He has hurled down the splendor of Israel from heaven to earth; he has not remembered his footstool in the day of his anger.

                  There's no indication that God was speaking to Lucifer because of Nebuchadnezzar.   Why would God give Lucifer success? 
                  My response:
                  I don’t see where these two verses of scripture connects, I don’t understand what success that God Lucifer you are talking about

                  Nowhere in the Book of Daniel is the king ever mentioned as being that being that fell from heaven and did weaken the nations!

                  Let's look at Daniel 4:19-23

                  Belteshazzar answered, “My lord [Nebuchadnezzar], if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the wild animals, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds— 22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

                  23 “Your Majesty saw a holy one, a messenger, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump, bound with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field, while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven; let him live with the wild animals, until seven times pass by for him.’

                  My response:
                  When referring to a king whose soul was invaded by Lucifer I came from the Book of Isaiah and not Daniel. I don’t know where that come from, if it was placed there by me please quote me that I may correct it. In the story of the King of Tyre God addressed the mortal King and then through the king he addressed the evil being who had invaded the man’s soul, Lucifer. This in the Book of Isaiah and Daniel!

                  Your post:

                  Compare this to Isaiah 14:12

                  “How you are fallen from heaven,
                  O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
                  How you are cut down to the ground,
                  You who weakened the nations!

                  So you see Nebuchadnezzar tried to ascend into heaven.  The tree, symbolically him, touched the sky but it was cut down and descended to heaven.   That represents going down to Sheol. 

                  Verse 22 in Daniel 4 says:

                  22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

                  Isaiah 14: 16-17

                  “Those who see you will gaze at you,
                  And consider you, saying:
                  ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
                  Who shook kingdoms,
                  17 Who made the world as a wilderness
                  And destroyed its cities,
                  Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

                  So we see that King Nebuchadnezzar did weaken kingdoms.


                  We'd you get the 1000 years part? Lucifer is not a man like Isaiah says in verse 16. 

                  Isaiah 14: 18-20


                  18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.

                  So we see Isaiah is talking about a king who has died (cast out of your tomb) and is rather covered with the slain.  He will not be buried because of his slaying.   If we are talking about Lucifer, then Lucifer is dead.
                  You said perfect doesn't mean sinless.  You said how can we know what perfect is?
                  Not satisfactory.
                  How could Lucifer have great skills in trading? Since when did God dress Lucifer in gems?  Wasn't he the serpent in the Garden of Eden?  I don't think a snake is beautiful.

                  My response:
                  I never said that Lucifer was the snake but possession of the snake. Yes the snake was in the Garden and so was Lucifer. You say you don’t think a snake is beautiful, but the snake is not what it was before it was cursed. It was cursed to crawl around on its belly, it was the curse that disfigured the snake. We don’t know just what beauty the snake had before the curse, he may have been just below Lucifer in beauty. 

                  Verse 9 in Ezekiel 28 says:

                  Will you then say, “I am a god,”
                      in the presence of those who kill you?
                  You will be but a mortal, not a god,
                      in the hands of those who slay you.
                  So how can Lucifer rule for a 1000 years when he was slain?

                  My response:
                  I don’t understand this, when was Lucifer slain?  I can find nowhere in scripture where Lucifer or any other fallen angel was ever sail. You need to explain this better because I have no Idea what’s going on here. Please explain when, where and how Lucifer was slain and get back with me on that because I’m very interested in hearing this.

                  Your post:

                  Being dressed in gems is likened to stones set in the breastplate of the high priest of Israel (Exodus 28:17-21)

                  They symbolized the twelve tribes of Israel (Ex. 39:14). The king of Tyre walked in the midst of these
                  stones of fire when he moved among the children of Israel.

                  Lucifer couldn't have been perfect at his beginning.

                  My response:
                  You explain nothing here, how does any of this proves that Lucifer wasn’t created perfect?

                  Your post:


                  John 8:44

                  You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

                  Where in the Bible does it say Lucifer had a devastated the earth because of war?
                  My response:
                  I went into great de

                  In this case, the cherubim were figures on the Mercy Seat, or the Tabernacle.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth’ (v. 14). The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat (Ex. 37: 7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece (Ex. 25:19-20)

                  The suggestion may be that Tyre as a great mercantile power [great skill in trading] was privileged to cast its ‘wings’ over Israel. It was the abuse of this exalted position that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre (vs. 4-5).

                  There is no evidence, obviously, that Lucifer died a violent death (vs 8)This cannot be referring to Lucifer.   He never died at the hands of foreigners.

                  My response:
                  Where are you getting this, I never said Lucifer died a violent death, what are you talking about?
                  Your post:
                  No, only a spirit can possess someone.  You cannot be a physical being in another being.
                  My response:

                  There you go again calling the very one who you said is perfect a liar, there’s no doubt that the Holy Spirit confronted many people who were possessed by evil spirits. Jesus casted out many of these demons and made them identify themselves by name. Your Luciferian UFO Religion has got you very confused.

                  Please show me where I said that Lucifer is Dead!

                  Lucifer and Satan is the Same Being!

                  1. Claire Evans profile image91
                    Claire Evansposted 15 months ago in reply to this

                    If God is capable of sinning, who is He to judge us? Did He create Himself sinful? Did He create evil? You misconstrue the role of the Trinity.  Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one, yes, but they take on different roles.  Jesus, in the flesh, could be tempted as He had the nature of man.  God, the Father in heaven, Who could never be corrupted as He was never a man, can never sin.  How can a sinner redeem our sin? It's like an egg.  The yolk, white and shell is one entity.  Take it apart and you have separate parts that can be used for different things.  The omelette can be made from yolk and a meringue cake can be made from the white.   Likewise, Jesus took on the role of the Son and God as the Father.  Jesus prayed to the Lord.  He cannot pray to Himself.  Perfection is devoid of all evil.  No evil nature, no committing sin, no temptation. 




                    If evil never existed, free will wouldn't be needed as no one could choose evil that doesn't exist.  So we have two scenarios.  Either God created evil so we could choose Him or Satan or Satan created evil and God gave us free will to choose Him because evil already existed.   Which one is it?



                    Potential gods in the making? Are you a Christian or New Ager? New Age is Luciferian. They believe they can have Christ consciousness through their secret teachings. 

                    Aleister Crowley (famous Satanist) looked at man as a sleeping god who gradually started to understand what powers he possesses.

                    I can see you are deceived.

                    Now it is strange that in the Garden of Eden story, God did not want free will:

                    Genesis 3

                    3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" 4The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."…



                    Playing devils' advocate.  I am going by the premise that you believe God is the creator of all.  If that is true, then He must be the creator of evil for evil must have preceded the creation of Lucifer.  So where did this evil come from? Of course I know God is not the creator of evil.  Impossible.  I know the answer but I want to know your answer.   



                    Definition of devil's advocate:

                    "a person who expresses a contentious opinion in order to provoke debate or test the strength of the opposing arguments."


                    I'm arguing from your premise but I don't believe it myself.  For your claim to make sense, you must be saying that God and Lucifer existed at the same time.  That God was in heaven and that Lucifer was among the stars with sin.  That sounds as if they are two different gods and Lucifer has supernatural powers.  If this is the case, then God must be the source of evil and He came before Lucifer, because He was a creation, otherwise Lucifer could not have sinned in the first place.  You can't think evil thoughts unless evil already existed.



                    Already debunked the claim that Isaiah was referring to the devil and not Nebuchadnezzar. 



                    Next time I'll state when I'm playing devil's advocate.  Makes no sense.  We see in the NT that Jesus was tempted by Satan.  You can't be tempted by anything else.  Satan puts the thought in someone's head to sin.  Already debunked your Ezekiel argument, too. 



                    I didn't say God corrupted mankind.  It is Satan, himself, that corrupted mankind.  If one consults the Sumerian tablets, from which Genesis comes from, then you will see that extra terrestrials genetically corrupted mankind to be like them (let us make man in our image).  So how can God give Lucifer free will but not want man to have it? See the Genesis 3 part.  If Satan is the creator of evil, then how could he have been given free will? He would never choose good.  It's impossible.  Jesus said Satan was a liar and murderer from the start.  So, according to what you are saying, this must be the order of things.  God (creator of all things) > sin > Lucifer.  So according to your logic, God must have been the creator of evil. 



                    But who is God in the OT? Not the Father of Jesus.  He is Yahweh, a Canaanite deity.  So, being the god of war, of course he could be near evil.   I never claimed the Bible is perfect.  Please quote.  If Satan has access to the Holy Father, then who is God to judge us? Did not Jesus say "lead us not into temptation"?



                    This is what I researched:

                    "Judaism does not believe in the devil, but we do believe in Satan (who more properly should be called "the Satan"). As this demonstrates, the Jewish view of Satan is very different than the Christian one. Here's a summary of the Jewish view; you can also find information at Alyza (Gretchen) Shapiro's web site at http://www.geocities.com/alyzab/Jewish/satan.html

                    The word satan means "challenger", "difficulty", or "distraction" (note that it is not a proper name). With the leading ha- to make haSatan, it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. HaSatan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. In other words, haSatan is an angel whose mission it is to add difficulty, challenges, and growth experiences to life. Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod."

                    http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HT … 12-35.html

                    This suggests that Lucifer was still an agent of God.  See the story of Job.

                    It is actually only later that Satan in Jewish literature that Satan had demonic quality and was also seen as the evil inclination of the human psyche. 

                    During this time, the OT was manipulated in that Satan was replaced by God in the following verses:

                    2 Samuel 24:1

                    Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."


                    It looked bad to the Jews that God was depicted as the tempter which is actually Satan's role.  So it was changed to this:

                    1 Chronicles 21:1

                    Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

                    It couldn't have been both God and Satan.  There is manipulation involved here.



                    Seemed as if Paul changed the Word, too.  That is why he was at such loggerheads with Peter.



                    I didn't say Satan came to refine us by sending tribulation.  I am telling you what the Jewish people believe.



                    Is it not a Christian belief that Lucifer was created by God? If so, then God created evil and thus Lucifer became evil because no one can do evil unless evil already exists.  So according to this logic, God must be responsible for evil.  Someone who has dabbled in the occult has never had God's protective hand in the first place.  You can't go from having the Holy Spirit to siding with the devil.  Impossible.  However, in the lives of those who have the Holy Spirit, God may have permissive will.  In other words, He may allow Satan to do something in our lives if it spiritually refines us.  It is only through suffering that we can be nearer to God. 



                    I never thought that the Catholic Church was "Christian".  Where did I say that? Catholicism is only Christian in name but Satanic in reality.  As I've repeated many times, evil must exist before someone can have evil thoughts.  Thus evil must have existed before Lucifer was created. 



                    Satan is the source of all evil.  He was never created.  He was always there.  Good and evil aren't created.  They merely come from the God and Satan respectively who were never created in the first place. 



                    Do you not understand the Trinity? God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one.  That is what John 1 is referring to.  However, Jesus took on the role of the Son on earth. 

                    John 14:7

                    "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

                    It appears as if He is referring to Himself as a separate being but at the same time is saying He is God Himself. 




                    You have not addressed my statement.  If Jesus was God on the cross, why did He ask why the Father had forsaken Him? If you are saying I'm being contradictory then isn't Jesus also being contradictory?




                    God can take on any role He likes.  God in His Holy State cannot take on the nature of man because He is in His Holy Kingdom.  However, He can send His son, Jesus, in the flesh and have the nature of man to witness for the truth.  He is the bridge between us and God. 



                    But you didn't accept it when I say God took on different roles; one being the Father and one being the Son.  You are now acknowledging this.  It doesn't mean that I negate the divinity in Jesus. 




                    Is it from the book of Peter that you believe Jesus had ministered to the damned? That isn't even in the Bible.  Those in hell are already damned.  They cannot be redeemed.  You can't come from hell then be reunited with God. 



                    This doesn't make sense.  Allowed back into his office? Why be allowed to do that?



                    I've debunked that Ezekiel scripture.  Pride on one's look, anyway, can not cause one to be the most evil, vile thing ever to exist. 



                    Come on, Genesis is a copy of the Sumerian creation story.  It is not original. 

                    "The Hebrews as nomadic tribes, and later as tradesmen, were always on the move all over the Fertile Crescent that was bounded to the west by Egypt and to the east by Sumer and Babylon (Mesopotamia). Their constant journeys gave them access to the famous epics and stories/myths of the ancient Near East.



                    It was only after the Babylonian Captivity that the Rabbis had thought of writing down their oral teachings. Contrary to the Israelite gloomy depiction of the Captivity, this deportation had been an enlightening experience for the ancient Israelites. Those herds of Israelite Bedouins for the first time had an encounter with a superior urban civilization. The Babylonians had settled communities with a unique culture, .e.g., art, architecture, theology and mythology.
                    This is when the Hebrew scribes, by default or by design, had incorporated many of the ancient Sumerian and Assyrian mythology and blended them into their new book."

                    https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2012/08/ … onotheism/




                    Well, according to the Sumerian Tablets from which we get Genesis, the Annuanki, the gods, existed on a planet called Niburu.  There is also evidence that life existed on Mars.  It is only when Niburu became uninhabitable that the Annuanki came to earth to enslave mankind and use its resources.  Now that is the version of the Sumerians who existed before the Hebrews.  This is when evil may have been introduced into the world. 



                    You are basing everything you believe on a pagan source.  You know the Israelites were polytheists.  Did you not know that Judaism was only monotheistic after the Babylon Exile? You need a complete make over of your beliefs.



                    I did? Can you quote me?




                    Yes, the Jewish OT modified the OT to make it monotheistic after the cult of Yahweh was resurrected.  Before the Babylonian Exile, the cult of Yahweh was dying.

                    I'm just rather offended that you didn't consult my link.  It's a lecture by someone sanctioned by the Vatican to translate the OT literally. 

                    I'm not going to regurgitate what this guy says.  You can watch the lecture and then we can discuss it.

                    I'm just rather offended that you didn't consult my link.  It's a lecture by someone sanctioned by the Vatican to translate the OT literally. 

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MXLB6 … r_embedded



                    How do physical beings get kicked out of evil? Did they fly out? If you believe in ET's, however, it makes perfect sense.




                    Are you saying I'm a Luciferian?



                    You know why it isn't in the Bible? It's because the Catholic Church chucked it out.  It came too close to the truth. 

                    So they thought an albino baby with a white and red body looked like offspring from the angels? You know, there have been human/alien hybrids from breeding.  Artificial insemination was one way to impregnate a human.

                    The narrative of the Book of Enoch goes further:

                    “Behold, I thought then within my heart that conception was (due) to the Watchers and the Holy Ones ... and to the Nephilim . . . and my heart was troubled within me because of this child.”
                    Turning to his obviously distraught wife, Lamech makes her swear by the Most High that she will tell him the truth and admit if she has lain with anyone else.

                    In reply she beseeches him to accept her word, saying:
                    “O my lord, 0 my [brother, remember l my pleasure! I swear to thee by the Holy Great One, the king of [the heavens] ... that this seed is yours and that [this] conception is from you. This fruit was planted by you ... and by no stranger or Watcher or Son of Heaven ... I speak to you truthfully"

                    So Lamech does not believe his wife slept with an angel but with a Watcher.  It appears as if Noah could be a nephilim, the offspring of women and the sons of the gods. 

                    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/enoch/esp_enoch_7.htm





                    Physical sons? I thought Jesus was God's only begotten Son? I've never heard that God had multiple sons.  I don't worship angels.  I didn't say there were gods before God! There is no "before God".  He always was.  I believe UFOs are the creation of Satan.  He can create his own beings. 



                    God will never have a governing body in world governments.  The Kingdom of God is a spiritual place within us. In other words, it doesn't represent the physical church.  It represents unity in the love of Christ.

                    What Jesus Kingdom is: The kingdom of God involves his RULE, LORDSHIP, POWER, and spiritual activity in the daily lives and hearts of all who receive and OBEY his word of truth.

                    For example:

                    Luke 17:21.

                    You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."

                    So the Kingdom of God cannot be the church. It hadn't been established when Jesus said this.  It is the Holy Spirit within us.

                    The Kingdom of God is heaven:

                    Phillipians 3:20:

                    But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

                    The Kingdom of God could not have been created.  It also was. 



                    Yes.



                    The Sumerian story:

                    Enki and Enlil were offspring of the Annunaki.  There was a great amount of friction between them. 

                    This was originally the symbol for the Anunnaki-Sirian creator god, EA, or EN.KI (who has become an Archetype), was the chief of the magicians, "the one who knows," and infamous for being the serpent of the Garden of Eden who created lifeforms in test tubes half a million years ago with his half-sister Ninharsag, at the suggestion of his son, Marduk, to create humans to be the workers for the gods. (The symbol is also based upon the winged globe for the planet Nibiru, the symbol of the royal Anunnaki family.)

                    In the Garden of Eden situation, Enlil was furious that Enki permitted humans to have access to knowledge, the mixing of the Anunnaki with human genes, thereby becoming more "godly," and equal to the Anunnaki. To strike back at Enki, and in the attempt to regain his power over humans, Enlil vowed to tarnish Enki’s reputation by spreading the idea that the serpent of wisdom was evil. Enlil tried to wipe out knowledge of the DNA coding Enki gave humans, and of what the Anunnaki used in order to have longevity (gold).

                    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer … naki07.htm

                    The Sumerian civilization had disappeared by the time the Hebrews appeared so it impossible that the Sumerians got their stories from the Hebrews. 


                    Who is the serpent then? Christians think he is Satan? Yes, the Jews did manipulate the OT.  They changed it from referring to the gods to only one God.  This was done only half a thousand years before Jesus.  It is blatantly obvious.  Yahweh said:

                    “Against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgement.”

                    Yahweh was just one of many gods.  You are believing Jewish lies.  The whole Christian religion is.




                    Are you saying we have a corrupted version of the OT?



                    He called Himself the Morning Star.  I just posted the scripture.  If it is a metaphor for one that is worshiped, why think the term is exclusive to Lucifer?



                    It proves that kings were compared to heavenly bodies! That means the morning star was used to describe Nebuchadnezzar!



                    I know that but how do you explain morning stars singing together? Many Lucifers?



                    First of all, Lucifer is a Latin name so Isaiah couldn't have possibly referred to Lucifer. 



                    "The term Lucifer was popularized in English from this King James translation. However, the name does not come from the Hebrew or even from the Greek translation (Septuagint), but from the fourth century AD Latin translation of this verse:

                    "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.

                    "But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words: lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning 'light') and ferre, which means 'to bear' or 'to bring.' So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light. The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean 'bright,' especially associated with the sky....There is some debate about the exact origin of the original Hebrew word in Isaiah 14:12 (helel). The strongest possibility is that it comes from a verbal root that means 'to shine brightly,' as well as 'to offer praise' (where we get the phrase hallelu yah). In any case, the noun form is the Hebrew term for the morning star, in most cases the planet Venus. Both the second century BC Greek translation in the Septuagint, and the fourth century AD Latin translation in the Latin Vulgate understand this to be the meaning of the Hebrew word helel ("Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-17: Translation and Ideology, Christian Resource Institute)."

                    http://www.hope-of-israel.org/luciferinisaiah14.html

                    And we know that the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death was Helal, son of Shahar.  Hele is the word Isaiah used to describe the morning star.





                    Well, isn't Lucifer from outer space?



                    I could get angry that you are making these accusations to me but you just don't understand. I'm wondering if you do want to.  You can't accept that Isaiah is not talking about the devil. 



                    Never mind.  Trying to remember what I was trying to say without success.  Sorry.


                     

                    Come on, so you are just going to ignore the relations between Danial and Isaiah? How do you explain that both Isaiah and Daniel speak of Nebuchadnezzar as being cut down? Or Lucifer in your case? Where in Genesis does it say that Lucifer possessed the snake? You are making that up.  Do you know why you are so confused? It's because Genesis is from the Sumerian pagan story which says the snake god Enki gave mankind knowledge.  Enki was not in the form of a snake but could converse and walk around.  His brother, Enlil, was furious that Enki was helping humanity.  This is compared to God.  This is why God is said to have walked around the garden (Genesis 3smile

                    So just forget what you are believing.  It didn't happen.

                     

                    That's the point.  There is no scripture that says the devil was slain.  However, if you believe Ezekiel 28 is talking about Lucifer, then he must have been slain.  See verse 9.  So we agree that it isn't about Lucifer?

                     

                    The answer is below.  The devil was a liar and murderer from the start thus he could never have been perfect.



                    Please finish the sentence.

                    r-o-y wrote:

                    "In this case, the cherubim were figures on the Mercy Seat, or the Tabernacle.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth’ (v. 14). The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat (Ex. 37: 7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece (Ex. 25:19-20)

                    The suggestion may be that Tyre as a great mercantile power [great skill in trading] was privileged to cast its ‘wings’ over Israel. It was the abuse of this exalted position that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre (vs. 4-5).

                    There is no evidence, obviously, that Lucifer died a violent death (vs 8)This cannot be referring to Lucifer

    2. Michael-Milec profile image62
      Michael-Milecposted 18 months ago in reply to this

      We also read ' God saw all hat he had made - and it was very good!'
      ( Genesis1:31)

      1. Paul Wingert profile image80
        Paul Wingertposted 17 months ago in reply to this

        The Sumerian gods, Anu, Enki and Enlil basically said the same thing when they created the earth long before your god did.

  2. SmartAndFun profile image93
    SmartAndFunposted 18 months ago

    This thread is in the wrong place. It needs to be moved here: http://hubpages.com/forum/20

  3. Zhivko Stanev profile image81
    Zhivko Stanevposted 18 months ago

    Maybe he didn't have to. Maybe God really IS evil.

    1. BuddiNsense profile image59
      BuddiNsenseposted 18 months ago in reply to this

      The biblical one is.

      1. r-o-y profile image82
        r-o-yposted 18 months ago in reply to this

        In what way do you see the Biblical God as being evil?

        1. BuddiNsense profile image59
          BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

          He is jealous, exhort genocide and murder, create disaster.....

          1. r-o-y profile image82
            r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

            Let’s take a look at your first charge you brought against the Lord. You said he’s jealous! If you have a son that you love very much, you have given your all to the welfare of this beloved son or daughter. You have given all you have as an inheritance to this child of yours, and the inheritance is great. All you asked is that your child love you in return, but your beloved child turns his love toward your enemy. This child doesn’t realize that the enemy is out to destroy him, you see the child’s mis-guided affection toward one who intend to destroy him.

            Would not your heart burn with the desire for the return of the love that the two of you once shared together? If not you did not love them in the first place! What you call jealously is simply love longing for the return of the beloved. What was God supposed to do when one he loves so much and have done so much to prove that love and have that loved one to fall in love with another? What would you do? How would you feel?
            If God didn’t feel what you call jealousy, I would have to question his love. It’s the nature of love to long for that which is loved.

            Would you not be jealous if it was your children desired you for the love of one who are going ruin and destroy their lives? We try hard to warn and caution our children of destructive love affairs, would God not feel and do the same thing for that which He claim to love?   Do you think you love more than God?

            1. Zhivko Stanev profile image81
              Zhivko Stanevposted 17 months ago in reply to this

              If God truely loves something, he should learn to let it go.

              When a man truely loves his child he can give him everything and never ask for anything in return.

              1. BuddiNsense profile image59
                BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                Christians do have a problem understanding the meaning of "love".

              2. r-o-y profile image82
                r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                I don’t believe one can truly love his son and ask for nothing in return, one thing I must ask; I need to know that you love me as much as I love you. This one thing I must ask I must ask; love me as I love you. I don’t think that is asking too much, do you?  Neither do I believe that in every case God should learn to let it go. I for one am glad he didn’t let go of me.

                I remember back in the mid-1980s when crack cocaine hit New Orleans, it was something right out of a nightmare. People who were once real friends would steal from each other, people would steal from their own mothers, and some even killed their mothers. But there was one thing that found most amazing in all the madness, it was the love of the mothers for their children who were headed for destruction.
                Though all society had given up on the crack addict, found nothing good in them and were afraid and wanted to do with them, they were the scum of the earth.  The mothers of these souls knew that the report was an accurate one because the mothers wouldn’t allow their own children in her home.
                Many people would try to tell these mothers that the child is lost, but the mother’s love for the child would not allow her to just let go. I’ve watched mothers die from broken hearts because of the loss of one child because just couldn’t let go.

                Who is to say when it’s time for love to learn to just let go?  Some people love and others really love, who can know the depth of the love one may have for another. For one who love much deeper than you, maybe it’s not that easy for him to learn to just let go. That’s the power of love!

                1. Paul Wingert profile image80
                  Paul Wingertposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                  Yes God has insecurity issues. The first 4 commandments point this out. There's no Thou shall not rape or anything against bigotry or slavery. He just doesn't want his feeling hurt. No where in the Bible does it that HE says that he loves anyone (correct me if I'm wrong on that). He creates faulty humans and then blames them for their short comings then he creates a world fill with evil and disaster which proves he's not a very powerful god. He can't even show or speak for himself - people have to do that and make up excuses for him. He let's 25,000 kids dies each day of starvation and treatable diseases that he created. If I saw a woman being raped, I'll be the first to act, unlike the all power, all knowing sky daddy. If I was to worship a god, the useless garbage described in the Bible would be that last one I'd consider.

                  1. r-o-y profile image82
                    r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                    Your question:
                    “There's no Thou shall not rape or anything against bigotry or slavery””

                    I don’t understand how God commanding his people not to rape could be seen as an insecurity issue. Would you not demand the same of your sons?  The next part of your statement:
                    “or anything against bigotry or slavery”

                    I have no idea what you are asking or stating.

                    “No where in the Bible does it that he says that he loves anyone (correct me if I'm wrong on that).”
                    you are wrong,throughout scripture it is taught that God loves all even the sinner, but hates the sin, that’s basic bible Doctrine, it’s throughout scripture. But he and his Throne is under attack by those he love. It’s like any king whose son turns against him and unite with the king’s enemy. The king is heartbroken, he still love that son that is a reproduction of himself, and sure he loves his son. But what can he do when he constantly plead with the son to return home. But the son has been deceived by the king’s enemy into believing that his father is evil.

                    This is a war tactic, remember the throne is under attack by this enemy. Now the king’s son joins the military ranks of the enemy of his father and is now leading the attack against his father’s throne. Now when the son physically attacks and tries to take the throne the king must kill his son. Does that mean that the father hates the son? The king is grieved to his heart? He still loves his son. The something with the king of the universe, God loves all his sons and daughters, even those like you who attack your farther throne, a father who have done no wrong to you. Yet he still loves you and ask what have I done for you to persecute me like this?  He still loves you even though you slander his name.

                    So you respond to your father with your next statement, your response:    “He creates faulty humans and then blames them for their short comings then he creates a world fill with evil and disaster which proves he's not a very powerful god. He can't even show or speak for himself - people have to do that and make up excuses for him. He let's 25,000 kids dies each day of starvation and treatable diseases that he created. If I saw a woman being raped, I'll be the first to act, unlike the all power, all knowing sky daddy. If I was to worship a god, the useless garbage described in the Bible would be that last one I'd consider.”
                    2.    The charges you leveled against your father the king is nothing but false charges trump up by the enemy. God did not created anyone faulty, in fact God put in man a life renewing mechanism that even science admits is there. The gods of this world, science, just can’t understand why people grow old and die when the body constantly reproduces or renews itself. Science is baffled, why we grow old and die when the cells of the body constantly renew themselves. This is the perfect creation of God, this beautiful process of the human body constantly renewing itself was meant to continue through all eternality. The evidence is there that God created the man to live forever, but there must be condition to this everlasting life.

                    3.    Now, here comes the enemy that destroyed the life renewing mechanism in the man. In order for the man to live in this everlasting kingdom he must be a law bidding citizen. This is a paradise kingdom, if the man can’t abide by the just law he forfeit the right of citizenship in a kingdom. The law states, love your God with all your heart. Now if its true [and it is] that this king your father has done all this for you, he’s called you into existence out of nothing into life everlasting existence, given you a beautiful home   [the universe] a world where the food you need grows from a seed that constantly reproduces itself to keep your pantry full.

                    4.    Not only that, but even put a seed in you so that may reproduce yourself to procreate those in your image to share experience of love and life, why would not love that being with all your heart and soul? Only a selfish unloving man would do something like that or the man has been deceived by the enemy of his father the king, the enemy that destroyed the life renewing mechanism in him and clouded his judgment.  This king, my father and your father ask me to prove that I love his other son [you] as I love myself, and to prove that love he ask  that I  not desire in my heart to sleep with your wife.

                    5.    Is this an unreasonable request of love? God goes on to say, that if I defile by brother’s house in this fashion I will prove myself to be unloving toward my brother, God’s other son [you] whom he love just as much as he loves me. Now he says that if I prove myself to be so unloving,  the life renewing mechanism that’s in me will malfunction and I will cease to exist because I and can’t be trusted in a universe where there are just laws. Is this an insecurity issue? The one with the issue is the one who can’t abide by just laws.

                    6.    So the man ignores the warning of desiring his brother’s wife and now must pay the price of his unloving heart. If he continue in his law breaking and never repents he must die, that is a just law! The unloving man who wants to do what he wants to do when he want to do it says damn the law, bro. man got a fine gal there I got to have a taste of that, damn the life renewing mechanism! So now the unloving man grows a hatred for his creator because he want allow him to defile his brother’s house, he now sets out to slander the king his father just because the father wants the son to do the right thing toward his brother.

                    7.    As I’m responding to your comment there’s a major story of an unloving brother on CNN news, this unloving brother went into a house of worship and destroyed the lives of nine people. You tell me why shouldn’t his life renewing mechanism not be destroyed? Is it God that made him do this, no it was the evil in his heart that destroyed him. Do you blame God for his actions? God warned that his unloving heart would destroy him in the end. There must be laws that govern a lawful universe. You blame God for man’s unlawful acts.

                    8.    The man was meant to live forever, was created to live forever, the only requirement was for man to love his creator and father with all his heart and to love his brother as he love himself. Only an unloving person could see this God’s insecurity! The only reason that 25,000 children are dying every day from starvation is because of the greed of man. The pantry is full, God has done his part, its is the fat-cats of this world who is causing this problem. I use to work for the Convention Center in New Orleans, a place where the fat-cats love to hangout and party. At the end of the day the center’s dumpsters would be running over with all kinds of good food that the wealthy just throw in the can.

                    9.    I’m talking tons of food that some of those starving children could use, yet you blame your father for this evil when its man’s greed that’s causing the starvation of these kids. God’s done his part, the pantry is full.  If man would use more of that the sue money creating war machines that destroys each other, and the money they throw in the dumpsters and do the right thing with it there would be enough  for all.  God’s done his part, the pantry is full, man’s greed, his sin, his law breaking is why children are dying from starvation, THE PANTRY IS FULL! 
                    10.    Are you one of the loveless ones? 
                    11. Yes I love my sky daddy!

            2. BuddiNsense profile image59
              BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

              And out of that "love", I make my child suffer enslavement, banishment, death, disease, is all natural and sign of love, right?

              "you have given your all to the welfare"
              Sitting in a chair and demanding worship and meat, is giving my "all"?

              Who is the enemy? He is also the creation of god, isn't he? Or are there any more gods?
              Jealousy is a base emotion, emotion of humans and lesser animals not of someone who is holy and pure.
              And ZHIVKO STANEV beat me to the punch. Expecting a return is in an investment and barter.

              1. r-o-y profile image82
                r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                I can find nowhere in the bible where God made his children suffer enslavement. What I do find in the bible are laws that govern the universe, just as I would expect laws that governs the US of A for the protection of all its citizens. Break these laws and feel the force of the power of the law you have broken.  If the laws of the United States of America states that if I kill in cold blooded murder I must face the death penalty. That is the law!  The greedy killer who sets out to cash-in on the insurance policy that he’s taken out on his wife knows the law he’s breaking.

                Now maybe the law will take it easy on this law breaker and instead of killing him they given life in prison, he gone off into a slavery of his own making, it’s not God punishing or enslaving him. Is God or the United States Government to just let him go scot-free?  He knew the law and the price to be paid for breaking the law. Now when the police tracks down a murderer hiding out in someone’s backyard drags him out in chains, they love the police, get that killer out of our midst, and lock him away in chains.
                Now if that same killer would have escape the police and not gets caught and live happily ever after in the community as a model citizen.  The years pass the killer have lived a life of luxury off the blood money. He’s now an old man, all the money in the world can’t my him out of presence of the judge he’s about to stand before. There are law that governs the land [USA] and there’s God’s law that trumps all.

                The killer out smarts the imperfect eyes of the US Government but he cannot outsmart the eyes that sees all. He dies, he’s called to stand trial, he’s accused of murder, and he’s condemned. The judge condemned the killer to death row, to be taken out of existence.  The world gets angry at God and calls him cruel for enforcing the law, and yet the very same ones applauds the US Government for taking the same action.  Do you believe we have the right to break laws that hurt other people and just live happily ever-after? The US Government that captured the killer hiding in the back yard did not enslave the man, it was the law that he willfully broke, and his lust for the high life is what enslaved him. He must be taken out before he kills another innocent person.

                When the God of Heaven sentence someone to do time in hell [spiritual prison] he’s not enslaving the man. Do you should live in a universe where there’s no laws, or where there’s laws in place but enforce.
                Should God let the law breaker go scot-free? The world says yes, but to the US Government it says no.  maybe that’s why America is in such a mess.

                1. BuddiNsense profile image59
                  BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                  I am not talking about hell, that is entirely different matter, should a loving god can torture someone for eternity.
                  What I am asking is about the events described in bible, god making Israel slaves of others, God exhorting murder of other races, asking death penalty for silly crimes, killing innocent children and animals.....

                  1. r-o-y profile image82
                    r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                    Eternal torment is not a bible doctrine, it was created by the Catholic Church of Rome to sell salvation and for the poor deceived to believe they can buy their love ones out of torment. God offers life of death, existence or non-existence. The Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ, it is the Church of Lucifer so it’s no great wonder why they would portray the God of Heaven as an evil creator who would torment his creatures throughout all eternality.  The bible clearly shows that man is a mortal being and not immortal, so the only thing a mortal being can do throughout all eternality is to be dead.

                    You stated that God order the killing of Babies and you are right about that, but why did he give that order? Part of the story according to scripture is that sons of God left their rightful abode and came to the earth with the sole purpose of having sexual relationship with the daughters of men whom they found to be very attractive. Once the beings from another had sex with these women of earth children were born unto them. First of all it is a violation the law of creation for beings from another world to have sex and produce children with the women of the earth.

                    Once the union between the two produce children, these children were not the creation of God but an abomination. They produced baby devil who grew into giant monsters who would dine on the flesh of man and drink his blood. To let the baby devils live and grow into full grown devils that would one day grow to be a hundred feet tall and come back and eat you up, I think the only solution is to obey the Lord and kill them in their infancy. These beings and their babies were not a part of creation but an abomination out to destroy creation!  God gave the order to kill them all before they grow up and eat the whole tribe of Judah. What would you have done?

              2. Zhivko Stanev profile image81
                Zhivko Stanevposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                He gives us peace, he gives us protection... He answers our prayers. And in return all he wants us to do is show some respect, some gratitude, and a small favour.

                Now I get why they call him "the Godfather".

              3. r-o-y profile image82
                r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                As to your question:

                “Who is the enemy? He is also the creation of god, isn't he? Or are there any more gods?”

                No, the enemy is not the creation of God! The verse of scripture the world has leaped upon and twist is from the Book of Genesis. Here it is:

                Genesis 1:1 we read, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” So, if Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then God created him that way.

                There’s no compromise in that statement, it is clearly stated that God is the author of sin and death, since he created everything that must include evil. There’s no mis-taken the meaning of the statement, God created evil or is an evil creator, either way it blasphemes against God and goes totally against everything taught in the Word of God.  The religious world knows that it one thing that the Church of Christ preach to the world is that their God is the Most Holiest God that knows no sin.

                The other religions may not agree with the Christian view of Christ, but they know that this is what is drilled into the world, that our God is pure and there is no sin in him at all. Now here comes a New Age Scribe claiming that the Christian God has sin within his being. Right from the beginning we have a serious problem here. Each statement contradicts the other, so one must be a lie, either God is pure and have no sin or he’s the author of sin and death.

                So it all boils down to who is evil, is it Jehovah or Lucifer. I don’t need to go into all the scripture teachings on the pureness of God because it’s well established in the Christian Community that he is pure. But the other one [Lucifer] who was the original accuser who leveled this same charge against God has used the mind of his disciples to distort a single word in the statement above:

                …” So, if Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then God created him that way.

                The word we are most interested in is “beginning” it states that Lucifer was a murderer from the beginning. Many seems to believe that beginning only includes events that happens in the moments of the event and time and after that point it’s no longer the beginning. The beginning of something can take up a long periods of time. I don’t know how people who are supposed to be enlighten can’t see through this game of Lucifer, with this word Beginning. I used to tell people that I was addicted from the beginning. I remember I was about four three years old when I got my first taste of coffee, I was hooked! Now back in New Orleans they had some very strong coffee, and if it still wasn’t strong enough they would add a root called chicory which makes it even stronger. So I was hooked from the beginning of my life on caffeine. Even though I was hooked from the beginning of my life, it wasn’t from the very moment of my birth or my creation, but it was in my beginning. 

                The same is true in the case of Lucifer, the Word is clear that Lucifer was created perfect in the day of his creation. There was no evil or sin or any imperfection in Lucifer so God did not create Lucifer to be evil. But not long after his creation, from the “beginning” he looked upon his own beauty and fell deeply in love.  He instantly forgot his God. Yea’ in the beginning! From his beginning Lucifer lusted after the Throne of God, his Father.

                In that moment from his beginning he declare in his heart that he would dethrone the Son of God and sit on the throne. From the beginning he had murder in his heart, how else could he take the throne unless there  is war? This one was a murderer from the beginning. From the moment of his creation when he fell in love with his own image, from the beginning he lied when he declared:

                “I will ascend the Throne of God, I will be like the Most High”

                He was a liar from the beginning of his creation once he got a look at his own image he fall in love with the creature instead of the creator, he was evil from the beginning. At that moment he became the Great Satan, God created Lucifer, Lucifer became Satan! No, God did not create Satan, Lucifer created Satan and all evil in the world because he was "a murderer from the “beginning!”

                1. BuddiNsense profile image59
                  BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                  And your point is?
                  Lucifer is gods creation, his son then. So does god hate him?
                  And that make enslaving of  his chosen just because they worshiped another, any more loving.

                  1. r-o-y profile image82
                    r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                    You must understand that it’s not that God hates Lucifer but its Lucifer who hates God. It’s Lucifer who started the very first war which resulted in 1/3 of the angels of heaven being imprisoned in the earth and millions of lives being snuffed out. If the American solder sent to the Middle East was to drop their weapons and join ranks with the rebels that would be treason. For the children of God to join ranks with the rebels who attack the Throne of Jehovah they too must be rebels.

                    How much love are you supposed to show to those who set out to destroy your kingdom and kill as many of its citizens as possible? How much love would you show to someone breaking into your house and holding your family hostage at the threat of death? When the children of God bow down before Lucifer and worship him they becomes enemies of the State of Heaven just as they would if the American solder abandoned his post. This is treason of the highest order!

                    God created Lucifer a holy being from his creation, Lucifer just like Adolf Hitler lust after world domination. If it alright for Lucifer to destroy so many lives just because of his lust for world domination, how can we condemn Hitler for committing the same crime? Those who support Lucifer’s rebellion against heaven also endorse Hitler’s war because it’s all one and the same.

                    The point is:

                    Its Treason of the Highest Order!!

  4. aware profile image69
    awareposted 18 months ago

    Good needs evil for comparison. You cant have one without the other. Furthermore  take heed  when fighting  monsters.  Lest  yee become  a monster  too. I prefer  Greek  myth. Hades drew the short straw.

    1. r-o-y profile image82
      r-o-yposted 18 months ago in reply to this

      Interesting, I don’t agree with any of it but it still doesn’t explain how any of that makes God evil.

      1. Paul Wingert profile image80
        Paul Wingertposted 16 months ago in reply to this

        Where in the Bible does it say that God, or even Jesus loves anyone? Don't throw in the "God gave his only son BS..." because according to the Bible and Canaanite mythology (Yes God is a Canaanite god - 1 0f 33), he had 72 sons - Jesus would make it 73.

    2. r-o-y profile image82
      r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

      JEALOUSY is the charge you have leveled against the Most High, but I would like to show you the true meaning of the word. We need to look no further that at the god of this world, Lucifer. Now that will be a remarkable difference between the jealousy of God we looked at earlier. This Jealousy of Lucifer is deadly to both soul and body. This jealousy of Lucifer started in the heart of Lucifer at the very creation of man. Lucifer hates your guts! Remember what Lucifer wanted most of all, he wanted to sit in the seat of God as God.

      God is going to do something with the newly created inferior man that is really going get Lucifer’s hatred of the man heated-up. God is going to place the inferior being made from dust and place him of the Throne of God as God, to the very place to which Lucifer lusted after to the point that he would take on the armies of heaven to gain and caused his decent into hell. Notice that God placed the man right in the middle of the combat zone. The other thing that added to the hatred of this inferior being made from the dirt that Lucifer, from the dirt that Lucifer scrapes from the bottom of his feet is his invasion of this earth, Lucifer’s home before the creation of man, the man is an invader.

      God would prepare a physical body for his Son to enter Lucifer kingdom [the earth] this is to me is one of the most amazing actions God has ever taken. When the son of God took on flesh and became a man that meant man had become God!! The man physical Jesus the Christ by taking on the image of man is now given the right to enter Lucifer’s kingdom so now the kingdom of heaven is with man. Now Lucifer would slay the rightful king, but the King would destroy Lucifer most powerful weapon, the fear of death. Now once the physical man Jesus the Christ is resurrected in his physical body he now ascend into heaven and heated at the right hand of Jehovah, the Most High!

      Now on that Throne of Heaven is a physical man whom Lucifer despises as nothing more than the dirt on the bottom of his feet. The lowly man has now been exulted to the very place that Lucifer gave his all trying to take by force. Lucifer hates your guts!  Not only is the inferior being made from dust crowned King of the Universe, but he’s even been placed in the Family of God as God! There’s God the Father a Spirit Being whom no man has ever seen, except for one physical man, Jesus the Christ. We have God the Son who is a physical man and the Holy Spirit, the Family of God which now includes a physical man, Jesus the Christ. Lucifer hates your guts!

      You represents everything Lucifer destroyed himself trying to be, he hates your guts!

      Now that’s jealousy and the true meaning of the word “JEALOUSY”
      Now the lowly man has become God and sit on the Throne of God as God while the self-exulted Lucifer has become the most file and despicable thing in creation.

      Know your enemy and know him well.

      Lucifer is Satan!!

      1. janesix profile image59
        janesixposted 17 months ago in reply to this

        All you are doing is putting the responsibility fo revil on a scapegoat(a made-up one at that) People don't need to take responsibility for their actions if they have someone else to blame it on, right?

        1. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

          I states my case on a reliable source, in fact it’s the most reliable source there is, and I state my claim on the proven accurate reporting of this source. This source has never been wrong in anything, this source assures me that it is an accurate report that Lucifer is real and he is indeed Satan. I‘ve put the responsibility on who it’s on. It is you who are blaming the Most High for everything that happens bad in this world. How do you know that Lucifer is a made-up being?

          Give me your reason for your beliefs, or are you going to just ask all the questions and I’m excepted give all the answers? Show me your evidence that Lucifer is a made-up character.
          And what is the responsible that you claim people blaming this others for, I place the blame for the fall on the one most responsible, Adam. Not Eve but Adam! All are responsible for the own actions, you can check any of my writings and you will not find anywhere where I blamed anyone other than man for his sins. It was Adam’s use of his own free will when he made the diabolical deal with Lucifer. 

          Its again you are putting the blame an innocent person, namely Jesus the Christ, for man killing man among many other terrible things. You blame the creator, I blame the man! Jesus did not go to the garden and tell Adam to listen to the lies of Lucifer, so how could you blame him for the evil in the world created by man?

          It is you who are placing the blame on another for your actions. I said that Lucifer has captured the man through the man’s involvement in the deep things of Satan. I also said that no devil can take over and poses a person without their permission. No sir, I place the blame on who its own! You place the blame for everything bad on the LORD. Take your own advice and stop blame Jesus for the corruption you me and every other mortal have contributed too. It wasn’t God that made you do that bad thing [and we all have sinned] it was you who did it and blamed it on God just as you are doing now.

          1. janesix profile image59
            janesixposted 17 months ago in reply to this

            I don't blame anything on God or Jesus, as they are fictional characters as well.

    3. r-o-y profile image82
      r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

      You say you didn’t see any murderous act with Lucifer, I think you may want to read a litter slow because you must have skip over something. The very first act that Lucifer committed when first making contact was a murderous one. Lucifer told the woman that God lied to her when he said she would die if she ate of the forbidden fruit [the lies of Lucifer]. That lie of Lucifer caused her death, before this act by Lucifer there was no death. Now if you can’t see that as a murderous act, you’ll just being unreasonable.
      There’s only one throne that’s above the stars of God that sits in the sides of the North, that’s the Throne of God. The problem is that you apparently know very little of the book that you are trying to trash or you would know that these things are scriptural. You don’t even know the basic doctrine of something you stand to war against.  I must first teach you basic bible doctrine before we can even began to have a serious conversation on the subject. Your question:
      “Why did go torture job, took his wealth and killed his family, I hope you have read the book of Job.”
      As for the first part of your question, yes I’ve read the whole bible form start to finish, from beginning to end! What you don’t seem to understand or keep forgetting is that this is war. In the enemy can sometime get the upper hand, they capture enemy troops. The captured troops now becomes POWs, now the enemy will do all he can to make his captured turn on his own government. The POW is beaten, starved, sent through all kinds of torture just to break him, but if he’s a strong enough man he will endure to the end and not betray his kingdom.
        Again this is war; Job was a general in the armies of heaven, he was temporarily captured by Lucifer, he was a POW. It was Lucifer who tortured Job not God, if you had read the Book of Job you would have known this. It was Lucifer who told God:
      “If you take that hedge of protection from around Job, I will make him cuss you to your face.”
      Lucifer himself says it is his he who will torture Job, not God. Maybe you need to go back and reread read the Book of Job because you missed a lot. Job proved to Lucifer that he’s a lair, like all good POWs job did not turn to treason, he was faithful to the end. Its like you are reading the words, but can’t seem to get the meaning of the words. When an American soldier is capture in combat let’s hope he have the courage of a Job and love of his kingdom that Job showed. Let’s hope he has the confidence in his ruler to in time come to his rescue the way Job had in his king.
      Again you show your lack of knowledge in the book you come to trash. After you finish rereading the Book of Job turn over the Book of Isaiah. In it is the description of Lucifer and his evil ways, Lucifer is constantly being mention throughout the entire bible as a devil. Your weak argument that Lucifer’s name is not mention is an old one that’s been debunked long ago. Here’s your argument, it’s an old one:
      According to Wikipedia:

      “In the New Testament the "adversary" has many names, but "Lucifer" is not among them. He is called "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:13, 4:15; Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter 5:8, ἀντίδικος; 1. Tim. 5:14, ἀντικείμενος), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent (Rev. 20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24), and Belial (comp. Samael). In Luke 10:18, John 12:31 and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts 5:3; 2. Cor. 11:3; Ephes. 2:2), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9). Because of Satan, death came into this world, being ever the tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. 4). The Christian demonology and belief in the devil dominated subsequent periods.] However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan fell from heaven "as lightning" (Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:7–10), it nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.”
      It’s true that the name Lucifer is not mention in the list of names given to the adversary, and there is good reason for that. When God gives His creatures a name, that name represents the nature and essence of that being. When the nature of that free-will being changes the name of that being must also change to represent the new nature of that new being. Just as when one come's to the Lord he is given a new name because he is a new creature, by the same token when one who once served in the capacity for which he was created turns his back on the Lord and turns his face toward Satan he becomes a new creature, the creature that God created [Lucifer] no longer exist, so the bible's got it right, the reason Lucifer is not mention any more in the word of God after his fall is because he no longer exist! He is a new file creature with a new file name to fit the filthy being that he has become.

      The name Lucifer represented Lucifer as he was created by his maker, a being of light! The bible says Lucifer was the anointed cherub that covereth; a most high and blessed position, this was the position of the being Lucifer. As long as Lucifer remained obedient to his maker he was Lucifer. But once Lucifer disobeyed his maker he became a new creation, he was no longer the being that God originally created. This new being must have a new name that represents his new nature and the essence of who he now is. That’s why he is never referred by that name again.
      That being Lucifer no longer exist he is now a new creature, so now God gives him new name, AVERSARY! REBEL, RESISTOR OF God, Satan! He is no longer a being of light that was his constant form, now he must go through a process to transform into a being of light to deceive others; he can't hold his light form long, just long enough to deceive!
      Whenever the nature of a creature of God changes God gives the creature a new name to identify that he now is, remember Saul of Tarsus, Saul was a major player in the persecution of Christians, and he was Saul, that’s who he was an agent of the adversary, Satan, or the original adversary Lucifer. Once Saul was born again he had to receive a new name to identify him as a new being, he is now Paul. The same happened with Abram; Abram came from a family of devil worshipers but God called him out of that evil religion.

      When Abram responded to the call of God and became obedient to that call he became a new creature, the new creature must have a new name because of his new identity. The new creature is now Abraham! [Gen 17:5] There are others in the bible whose names were changed by God to fit their new identities. But God did not stop with the people of the bible; Jesus said everyone whose nature is changed and receive the new birth will receive their new name. [Rev 2:17]

      God already identified Lucifer as the corrupt being that drew 1/3 of the angels’ of heaven to hell with him, and now he’s down here on earth amongst mankind. Do you truly believe that God would mention this filthy being only once and never warn His children on earth that this evil being is here and out to destroy them as he did with the angels of heaven? God would continually warn us of this evil being, and He does, but instead of us heeding His warning some would rather take the world of the enemy himself who says he is not Satan when God says he is Satan.
      One of the many names given to Lucifer after his fall is adversary, God never created another spirit being and called him the adversary, but gave Lucifer the name that describes his new nature, he is now an adversary to God, what better name could describe just who the once beautiful and power Lucifer had become.

      Surely, Lucifer in now no bearer of light, so would God keep referring to Lucifer as the bearer when there’s no longer any light in Lucifer, or would God call him by who he has now become, the adversary. Still there’s no new spirit being called Satan!

      Another name that God has given to Lucifer is rebel and is another name that further identifies Lucifer as Satan. Lucifer is the original rebel, no matter who the other combatants were, it’s Lucifer who is the father of this evil endeavor. So scripture identify Lucifer as the Adversary and the original rebel.

      So far we’ve seen where the two names given to Lucifer describes him to the letter, but these two names doesn’t even began to describe the evil that lurks within the heart of this evil being that God didn’t create. We are getting an idea of who this Lucifer really is, but it’s going to take more names to get to see the true evil of this being that God didn’t create.
      Another name Lucifer is known by is dragon, now in scripture the dragon is the very definition of evil itself. Scripture says it was the dragon that drew one third of the angels of heaven to hell with him. Now I ask you, where did this evil dragon come from? There were only heavenly beings in heaven before Lucifer’s fall, surely God wouldn’t create an evil dragon and place it among the holy angels. The dragon is non-other than Lucifer, it was he who drew one third of the angels to hell.

      “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought: [Rev 12:7]
      Of all the so-called monster, the dragon got to be the most frightening and evil, this name further identify Lucifer as even more evil than just the first two names. Another name that further identifies the heart of Lucifer is father of lies. Now Jesus says Satan is the father of lies, meaning the lie originated with Satan. Now if Satan is the father of the lie, that would only mean that it was he Lucifer who told the first lie to the angels and cause them to revolt against the Lord and end in hell, prison.
      There can be no two originals, either Satan is the original liar or Lucifer is the original or they are one and the same. This name father of lies further identifies Lucifer’s evil self that the other three names didn’t touch. There’s much more we need to know about this evil Lucifer so God gives him more names to identify this evil being so there’ll be no mistaken who this evil being really is:

      “Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ‘Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.’” Revelation 12:10
      To further identify the evil nature of this being Lucifer the Lord calls this evil being “Accuser”
      Scripture states that this evil being [Lucifer] does not rest from accusing the brethren before the Lord, day and night. The Lord warned that this being that presents himself as a being of light and a friend, is no friend of mankind. No true friend would trash the children of God to His face constantly, but instead would try to help them find their way back to the Lord. I don’t know about you, but I’m glad God gave Lucifer all these different names so I could truly know my enemy.

      “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” [John 8:44]
      To further identify the evil nature of the evil being that God didn’t create, God exposed Lucifer’s true intent, it’s to murder and destroy mankind. All these different names help us to get to know all about our enemy, just calling his Lucifer or Satan would not truly tell us of his true nature, the very evil being and what his true intentions are. We need every name that God calls him by to truly know this evil being that God didn’t create.
      Let’s take a look at just one more name Lucifer is known by, that name is “Destroyer”

      Now destruction of God’s creation is Lucifer’s number one goal, that includes angels, men and all that’s good. These are just a sampling of the shameful names that help us know our enemy and every one serves a purpose in exposing the evil nature of Lucifer, the snake, the dragon and Satan and every one of the names given to Lucifer by the Lord are needful in exposing Satan aka Lucifer. See my hub: Hollywood's War on God
      This ability of Lucifer to hide his true identity and assume the identity of another will play a major role in the end-time deception of the world that we see taking place before our very eyes today. Satan [Lucifer] will used his identity changing ability to even impersonating the Christ Himself, even in the New Age Bible [NIV] they have already identify Jesus as the one who fell from heaven and did weaken the nations.

      The New Ages Scribes also includes those who interpret the bible online for others, the many Christians Writers all over the inter-net, so be very careful what you write because it is permanently recorded in heaven. If you write and publish to the world that God is an evil creator who created Satan to test mankind, you had better be right! If God created Satan to test mankind, than it would be God who’s responsible for all those who are over-come by Satan and lead to destruction. This is what the Luciferians hope to gain from this doctrine of devils, and this is what they’re getting from their work of deception. Is God the creator of evil or an evil creator? Take your time answering that question; your everlasting future may depend on you getting this one right.

      All this hiding the true identity of who Lucifer really is just part of the master plan of Lucifer to get the world accepting him as the Christ, those who have been fooled into believing he’s not Satan may just as easily be fooled into believing he is the Christ. If you’ve been fool once by Lucifer and his demons with all the scripture evidence available, he can probably do it again.
      The stage is already set to pull off the ultimate deception of Lucifer to lead the world to destruction, and because of the never-ending work of the residents of hell, most of the world now believe Satan to be someone other than Lucifer.

      You see, all this is part of the plan, to first convince the world that Lucifer is not Satan and then go on to convince the world that he is actually the Christ of God the Father, and this plan is working to perfection, with their new bibles and their inter-net interpreters many who were once Christians now doesn’t see Lucifer as the evil Satan the he truly is.
      Did God just let Lucifer off the hook and forget all about him? According to Ezekiel 1:19, Lucifer had already possessed the king of Tyrus. This same being is the one who possessed the snake in the Garden of Eden. The bible doesn’t tell us a lot about the description of the snake before the curse, but from what it does tell we can assume that it had legs, and was an animal of the field but had some form of intelligence above the other animals. The bible shows us in mark 5:11 that devils do possess animals.
      The bible informs us that adversary identified as that old serpent [Rev 20:2] the great dragon [Rev 12:9] Beelzebub [Matt 10:25, 12:24] the adversary [1.Peter5:8.]

      I can prove through scripture that Lucifer was the one who tempted Eve and not some other being as you Luciferians claims.
      Prove to me that the bible is made up, you are the one that are coming with nothing but accusations. You keep saying that the bible is lies, but you come with no evidence, nothing but lip service. Again I ask you what you believe, but you all you want to do is make accusation. Why is it so hard for you to come out so we can see how much sense your world view makes? I want laugh, I promise. Let us compare my beliefs and yours. If you have that much confidence that the bible is a book of lies present your counter to it, don’t just make outrageous claims, back them up!
      Present your case for what you believe.

      I’m waiting!

      LUCIFER IS SATAN!

      1. Paul Wingert profile image80
        Paul Wingertposted 17 months ago in reply to this

        http://usercontent2.hubimg.com/12481015.jpg

        1. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

          Brilliant!

          1. Paul Wingert profile image80
            Paul Wingertposted 16 months ago in reply to this

            No different from your on-going rant that seems to go no-where. Generates laughs though.

      2. Zhivko Stanev profile image81
        Zhivko Stanevposted 17 months ago in reply to this

        Or maybe God created humans flawed and put them in a hostile world just for His own amuzement and fun. He told you he loved you because that is the easiest way to keep you under control. History tought us that a dictator needs the masses to love him rather than fear him. The Bible is nothing but propaganda.
        I believe that if we all come together and rebel against God we can break the chains He put on us and be free.

        P.S. And if you think any of this is not true - prove it with evidence!

        1. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

          I’m only going through this process with you because others who are listening who maybe on the fence in their decision to believe or not believe. I already know that no matter how great the evidence is it will never be enough for you.  It is you who need to prove the bible a lie, I’m still begin for you to present your god or beliefs. The problem you have is that you are hopeless, and the Christians have hope for a future beyond this life.  Since you don’t believe and that he created the world, what is your beliefs on how it all started?

          I need to know so I can try to better understand your reasoning, there’s no doubt in whom I believe. Do you believe in evolution or do you believe in anything at all other that you hate God? What do you believe, and let’s compare the two or are you contented with just throwing out wild accusations. If you don’t at least do that this conversation is only go around in circles. So lets take the next step in this you do as I did, put it out there in what you believe. We already know that you hate God, what do you replace him with?

      3. BuddiNsense profile image59
        BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

        Ezekiel 1
        18As for their rims they were lofty and awesome, and the rims of all four of them were full of eyes round about. 19Whenever the living beings moved, the wheels moved with them. And whenever the living beings rose from the earth, the wheels rose also. 20Wherever the spirit was about to go, they would go in that direction. And the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.…
        OLD friends meeting
        6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."…

        What is your loyalty to this evil being who call himself "god" and your hatred for one who knew no evil?

        1. r-o-y profile image82
          r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

          what part of this is evil, its getting hard to understand what you are asking.
          pinpoint the evil you are referring to.

          1. BuddiNsense profile image59
            BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

            You: "According to Ezekiel 1:19, Lucifer had already possessed the king of Tyrus"
            I was quoting  Ezekiel 1:19 to show you that it was not the case.


            "OLD friends meeting
            6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."…
            There is no "war" between Satan and god, this book show that they are old friends. You will also find that Satan kill Job's son after getting permission from god because god want to prove Job's loyalty. I was under the impression that murder is evil, you think it as a good act?
            I also pointed out the passages that show god is jealous, he murder......

            1. r-o-y profile image82
              r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

              “You: "According to Ezekiel 1:19, Lucifer had already possessed the king of Tyrus"

              “I was quoting  Ezekiel 1:19 to show you that it was not the case.”


              "OLD friends meeting
              6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."…
              There is no "war" between Satan and god, this book show that they are old friends. You will also find that Satan kill Job's son after getting permission from god because god want to prove Job's loyalty. I was under the impression that murder is evil, you think it as a good act?

              You may have quoted a scripture, but you did not explain how that verse of scripture proves your point. Just quoting scripture without elaborating falls short. That why many of my post are pretty long, I can’t express myself with one-liners. I know no one can read my mind so I try to take a little more time and effort to get my point across. I don’t expect everyone else to do this, but at lease help me understand how the verse of scripture proves your point.

              Your post:

              "OLD friends meeting"

              6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them? 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."…

              You just twisted scripture to prove an unsound doctrine, the game you are playing is called deception.  In your attempt to prove that God is as evil as Satan you set out to deceive, that verse of scripture is incomplete. As it stands it would seem that the Most Holy is in a friendly conversation with an old friend. Now with this you can deceive a seeker who doesn’t know the word. But if you would have continue to quote the rest of that verse of scripture it would become obvious that the Most Holy is not in friendly conversation with evil.

              Let’s look at the verse in its completeness:

              “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan, from whence comets thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.  And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.”

              Now went we look at that verse of scripture we see that it is definitely not two old friends talking, but two enemies. God brags about what wonderful servant [warrior] that Job is, God truly loves Job and is proud of him. On the other hand, Satan Hates Job’s guts. One is full of love and the other is full of hate. God says Job an upright man who loves God. Lucifer who hates Jehovah will also will hate anyone that loves Jehovah. This is definitely not two old friend holding a friendly conversation!

              God tells Satan “although thou movedst me against him” who was it that instigated this evil?  It was not God, but Satan! And why did God Allow Satan to put Job to the Test? Here is the answer:

              “And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.”

              Come-on man!  This is definitely not two old friends holding a friendly conversation!

              The intention of Satan is to get one of God’s son to cuss him to his face. No this is not two friends! Satan thinks he can make god out of a lair. But Satan is the father of the lie. Again god allows Lucifer to prove his case. Now God tells Satan:
              “LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.”
              In the end it was Satan who proved to the liar, Job proved faithful to his God and Father to the end, but wouldn’t you to have a son like that? It wasn’t god who did these things to Job, it was Satan. What you never mention is that in the end God gave Job back everything the devil stole form him and much more than he had before. This is definitely not two old friends holding a friendly conversation.

              You, I and everyone else can see that this is a con game you are playing with Holy Scripture, but you will continue to follow this con to the gates of hell because of the hate in your heart for someone who has done you no wrong!

              1. BuddiNsense profile image59
                BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                Prove my point? roll
                You said  Ezekiel 1:19 shows that the king of Tyre as possessed by Lucifer and I quoted  Ezekiel 1:18-20 to show that there is no mention of Lucifer or possession.


                I am happy that you at least read that book. You said god and Lucifer were at war but the book shows Satan going to god's meet unafraid, unmolested and alone and discuss with god like friends. To touch Job satan needs the PERMISSION of god.It's like Saddam Hussain going to America(during the war) asking permission from Bush junior to torture an American soldier to prove his loyalty to Bush.
                The book also said god give permission to kill Job's family. (Will you be happy if your son is murdered and you were given a new to replace the old? )The soldier should be happy and forget all about the torture and that it was Bush who gave permission if Bush makes him rich!!
                Satan: But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face
                This shows satan is incapable of doing anything without god. It doesn't say anything about satan hating job but only that he suspects that jobs loyalty is because god gave him good fortune.
                That is the character of a tyrant. So when you call a fellow who is jealous and murderous(along with the sons of Egyptian humans and animal's and Amelekites) as god, you are loyal to that evil creature and shunning

                GOD

                in favour of evil. And to think that it is your god's version the book is detailing, the truth would be even more horrible.
                Ps: are you stating that god was tricked by satan, regarding Job?
                Through out the OT, satan is a servant, "adversary" employed by god to check.

                1. r-o-y profile image82
                  r-o-yposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                  Prove my point? 
                  You said  Ezekiel 1:19 shows that the king of Tyre as possessed by Lucifer and I quoted  Ezekiel 1:18-20 to show that there is no mention of Lucifer or possession.


                  "I am happy that you at least read that book. You said god and Lucifer were at war but the book shows Satan going to god's meet unafraid, unmolested and alone and discuss with god like friends. To touch Job satan needs the PERMISSION of god.It's like Saddam Hussain going to America(during the war) asking permission from Bush junior to torture an American soldier to prove his loyalty to Bush."

                  The book also said god give permission to kill Job's family. (Will you be happy if your son is murdered and you were given a new to replace the old? )The soldier should be happy and forget all about the torture and that it was Bush who gave permission if Bush makes him rich!!
                  Satan: But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face

                  This shows satan is incapable of doing anything without god. It doesn't say anything about satan hating job but only that he suspects that jobs loyalty is because god gave him good fortune.
                  That is the character of a tyrant. So when you call a fellow who is jealous and murderous(along with the sons of Egyptian humans and animal's and Amelekites) as god, you are loyal to that evil creature and shunning

                  GOD

                  in favour of evil. And to think that it is your god's version the book is detailing, the truth would be even more horrible.
                  Ps: are you stating that god was tricked by satan, regarding Job?
                  Through out the OT, satan is a servant, "adversary" employed by god to check.

                  Your Post:

                  “Prove my point? 
                  You said  Ezekiel 1:19 shows that the king of Tyre as possessed by Lucifer and I quoted  Ezekiel 1:18-20 to show that there is no mention of Lucifer or possession.”

                  Judging by your writing it appears that you have a problem understanding what you read. Lucifer is definitely mention in the possession of the king. In the possession of the king there are two beings addressed by God, a physical man and a spirit who was once a resident of heaven. But let’s go directly to the word of God so there will be no mistaking who said what:
                  God’s Description of the Mortal Man Possessed by Lucifer

                  "The word of God came to me again saying, son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, thus says the Lord God: "Because your heart is lifted up, and you say, I’m a god, I sit in the seat of gods, [in the sides of the north] in the mist of the sea, yet you are a man, and not a god, though you set your heart as the heart of a god. Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There’s no secret that can be hidden from you! With your wisdom and your understanding you have gained riches for yourself, and gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, and your heart is lifted up because of your riches." [Ezekiel 28:1-5]

                  Here the Lord is addressing a mortal man, the King of Tyre, but the Lord will also address the fallen angel Lucifer who has taken possession of the king’s soul. But first the Lord’s attention is directed at the physical king because of the king’s involvement in the occult he has allowed himself to be processed by the devil who has convinced him that he the king is divine. The king has eaten the forbidden fruit of which God warned them not to eat.

                  "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as the gods" [Gen 3:5]

                  This is the danger of this fruit [the lies of Lucifer] it makes one believes he or she is God or divine. Here Lucifer calls his creator and Father a liar before the entire universe. God explains to the mortal king that Lucifer lied to him when he told him that he would become a god if he ate of this fruit. God informs the mortal king that he is no God and he will die the death of any other mortal. Next God turns His attention to the one who caused the whole mess in the first place, Lucifer [Satan] who has invaded the man’s soul. Even though God is still directing His statements at the physical being[the king] from the words He’s using to describe this second being it is clear this second being is of a higher order than the first being; both beings are inside the physical mortal king:

                  "Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tablets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" [Ezek 27:2]
                   
                  Even though God is directing his attention and statement at the physical king, from the words he is using it is obvious that he is not now addressing the mortal king. No mortal man has even been in the Garden of God [Eden] since Adam was evicted.  It says this being is the anointed cherub that covereth; I have set thee so. It goes on to state:

                  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee"

                  For those who claim that Lucifer is not Satan and God created Satan evil to text man, this verse of scripture destroys that argument. It is clearly stated that this being was created perfect until he used is God given free will to go bad. Whomever this being is he was not created to be evil by an evil creator, he created the evil within himself. Put whomever you want to there, Lucifer or Satan it makes no difference, it states the being that took possession of the king’s soul was not created by God to be an evil being.
                  Your statement:

                  “I am happy that you at least read that book. You said god and Lucifer were at war but the book shows Satan going to god's meet unafraid, unmolested and alone and discuss with god like friends. To touch Job satan needs the PERMISSION of god.It's like Saddam Hussain going to America(during the war) asking permission from Bush junior to torture an American soldier to prove his loyalty to Bush.”

                  Again you show a lack of understanding of spiritual matters, you can’t compare Bush to God. When God demand your presence to give an account of your actions, you have no choice in the matter, you will show up. Satan [Lucifer] was a son of God before his fall so when God summons the sons Lucifer shows up with them. When I say that Satan is at war against God that doesn’t mean that Lucifer is standing there trading blow for with God, God would upper-cup and right-cross Lucifer into oblivion in less than a millionth of a second.

                  The war that Lucifer is waging against God is for the mind and heart of man, Lucifer is not sending ballistic missiles at the Throne of God. The war is one of accusations and slandering as you are doing now. You are a mighty worker for Satan, you are hanging in there for your lord even though much of what you are saying makes no sense, but you are still in there fighting, God hasn’t destroyed, you are still invited to the Throne of Grace. That’s the kind of God he is. You as a disciple of Satan, like Satan did, can approach that throne, but there are conditions to that approach.
                  If you remember, in an earlier post I said that Lucifer [Satan] had leveled Charges against God, he [as you] charged God with being evil. God did not smash the life out of him, but gave him the opportunity to prove his case. He was given all the things needed to prove his case that God is evil and that included conversation with God. Just as court case in America when a lawyer or investigator or lawyer need to do certain things they must get permission from the judge, the judge tells them to proceed or not to proceed. Lucifer had to get permission before he could make this devastating move against an innocent man.

                  Here’s the type of war Satan waging:

                  “skin for skin, a man would give his all to save his life, touch his flesh and bone and will cuss you to your face.” [Satan].

                  Your post:
                  “The book also said god give permission to kill Job's family. (Will you be happy if your son is murdered and you were given a new to replace the old? )

                  Lucifer had become so full of hate for this mighty warrior of God that he tripped-up in his master plain. Lucifer comes to God [he had to get permission] asking that HE many lives, big mistake. When God told Lucifer Job was in his hands [POW] every low-down dirty thing that happened to Job was form Lucifer, not God. Lucifer blundered, with the entire universe of men and angels looking on, the very ones that Lucifer was trying to convince that God is evil, these very ones watched as Lucifer destroyed [so it seems] the lives of innocent people that did him no wrong.

                  Job’s family did no harm to Lucifer, even if he had a gripe with Job, why destroy the man’s family? Even the devilish American Mafia had more respect for human life that the evil Lucifer, they wouldn’t go after people’s wives and children. That’s how low-down your God is! Now the entire universe see just how evil Lucifer really is to do such a file low-down thing that even the America Mafia wouldn’t stoop to. The universe is watching the actions of this being who says he would make a better ruler than the LORD! All Lucifer did when killed Job’s family was to send them to the presence of God, they are save in his arms and very alive. But in this process Lucifer shows the on looking angels just how evil he is, he’s lost his war of slander against the Most High and so will you his disciple! 


                  Lucifer and Satan is the same being!

                  1. BuddiNsense profile image59
                    BuddiNsenseposted 17 months ago in reply to this

                    You said Ezekiel 1: 19, now you are quoting Ezekiel 28, neither of which contain Lucifer or possession but talks about "Ithobal".

                    Almost all of the old kings considered themselves as god, so nothing new. Now you are creating an association which is not there after making a falsehood about Ezekiel 1:19 containing Lucifer.

                    That is also a lie, gen 3:5 is addressed to Eve by a snake, there is no Lucifer there either. And the snake was not lying either;  22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us,"
                    Why Eden in Ezekiel,
                    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/28-13.htm
                    You got only this "cut and paste"?
                    http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

                    The way you make up, I too can, by quoting totally unrelated passages, here bible ask you to hang yourself;
                    Matthew 27:5  Then he went away and hanged himself.
                    Luke 10:37 Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."


                    Then there is no war, god only have to issue a command.
                    No restriction, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." It shows he could simply go there.
                    "And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." (I Samuel 16:23)
                    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
                    "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?" (Lamentations 3: 38-39)
                    the most high is your god who claim so.


                    You have a wild imagination. Satan has a gripe with job yet he had to get PERMISSION FROM god, so why did god allow? God allowed Lucifer to kill Job's family because god can show off? Lucifer is an imaginary creation of your god and satan is his hit-man.
                    Your god is Evil because he
                    1)    Is Partial -  to Israelites
                    2)    One among many, gen, deutro,psalms
                    3)    Do Murder  and genocide – Noah, Egypt, Job,...
                    4)    Advocate killing – numbers, and almost all OT
                    5)    Have no control over death Exodus
                    6)    Jealous
                    7)    Do adultery and promote it, OT and NT
                    You are saying that a fellow who do all these is god, but not someone who doesn’t?