God says:(Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.(191)
in verse 190 there is a clear command to fight in the name of God who start the fight but not to start the figthing .
191 encourges believers to be brave and strong when fighting.
well , you tell me how do you understand it please?
is it better for religions to be just peaceful and leave bad people control the world ?
I think it definitely speaks the way people are. I don't know that there is anyone in the world who wouldn't try to defend themselves if someone tried to harm you. I believe that the body/mind can do thing automatically without much of your own control.
When someone goes to hit you, you put your guard up and it is instinctive.
While my dad is not in anyway religious, he has brought me up saying. If you get in a fight, you better be damn sure that you, yourself did not throw the first punch. Otherwise I will not back you up.
Of course my dad would also say, "If someone wants to hurt me, they better be sure they kill me." It's my dads way of saying he knows the perpetual cycle of human nature.
I also think that God has actually made people to be defenders, not murderers.
I do believe that peace is at the heart of all religions and for most people. I don't believe there is anything we can do about the "bad people" ruling the world.
It's a weird thing. I half understand why some religions do it but at the same time, I cannot understand why they take the innocent people with them.
If someone hit me and I had every right to hit them back, I certainly would go and hit someone else instead. lol. That doesn't make sense.
But really, I think that fighting in the way of God, is that we defenders of our spirituality. Peaceful and good to each other, helpers of each other etc... because that is God's way. God's way against people who don't like God is that He doesn't do anything for them. They are left to themselves.
And I do believe in the Armageddon, it will be a war "false believers vs. disbelievers." Those who are made to be defenders will sit wayside with the believers helping them, defending them, keeping them out of harms way etc... not aggressive in nature, not with hate in their hearts but driven by compassion and love, to be a human wall ready to take a bullet for the ones they love.
Life is craZy!
You are not here on this planet to be abused or insulted by anyone ,defending yourself is your birthright.The prophet Muhammad had to during his time.
This is the problem with trying to live one's life according to the dictates of some ancient text instead of using common sense. If no one is bothering me I don't bother them. If someone is bothering me I ask them why they are doing it. If the answer isn't something we can work out I tell them to step off and that's usually that.
I don't have that much conflict in my life. And I don't need a 2,000 year old set of instructions to figure it out.
The Koran is not 2,000 y/o, which is where the quote is from.
You must be referring to the Bible. That is a whole different book(s) all together. Not to mention a different message.
For your kind info BUSH also used his common sense
if we believe in God
then we would believe that he knows past ,present as same as future
you may don't need these instructions as a person live in a world where few people are enojying life and taking what poor people have .
Too bad Muhammad didn't believe what he wrote himself. The world of Islam spread far into Europe and Asia in his day and soon after. No threats from anyone but just a quest for power and land. No different then the Romans before them. No different than the Catholic Church afterward.
The prophet Muhammad was great and he taught tolerance.
I will refer you to the book Muhammed by Karen Armstrong
it has been admited many places that islamic history is misinterpreted in the west.
Muhammed tried to spread islam peacfully but leaders didn't want him to do so they can keep controling their people.
he had to fight these powers to spread the word of equality in the world.
Mentioning a verse out of context is the way people use to malign Islam. Read verses 190, 191 alongwith 189,192,193. And if some one want more details then consult the Hadith (Traditions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
189. They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear Allah. That ye may prosper.
190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
The above mentioned verses clearly state that if and only if the oppressors do not let you in peace then stand against them. Actually, what really happend was that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) along with his few believing people were forcefully drove out of their land called Makkah, their properties were looted, believing mothers faced grave humiliation and murdered in front of their loving children and the list of oppression goes on and on, the reason was only that they started believing in only One God-Allah and his final messenger Muhammd (pbuh).
So, after driving them out, the muslims migrated to Madina and when they returned for Haj(pilgrimage) without any weapons, the infidals of Makkah did'nt let them do so and a treaty called Hudaibia Treaty was agreed upon for a period of 10 years by both parties and muslims returned to Madina without pilgrimage and as per treaty their will be no fight between them for these 10 years.
Now, during this period when infidals saw the increasing number of muslims they broke the treaty by looting and killing a small group of muslims peacfully resting in a certain place.
Resultantly, these verses came upon to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Verse 192 and 193 clearly mentiones that if they leave their oppression then they will not be harmed and this fight is just for the sake of justice-its not that Allah-God likes their bloodshed. In these verses Allah is just acting as an Army General, He is just boosting the moral of muslims to fight against tyrany and injustice and just dont fear these oppressors.
Very nicely written.Allah means the same god or the one god.
The God (with capital G) which i refered is only ONE and this ONE God is also mentioned in almost all of the religions of the world. Muslims prefer calling God by His unique name ALLAH.
Looks like we are here for yet another fight. Seems it has become a good concept to start a controversial topic gain attention. And I am sure this guy is seeking Mark's attention and reply.
I don't rise to the bait every time and the meaningless garbage here is not really interesting. I do love seeing the religionists fight about whose religion is the most loving and peaceful though
So here you are and I also agree with you.
Well the entertaining thing is this -
Someone painstakingly explained to me that you can only read and get the message in the kuran if you read it in it's original language. Any translations automatically put a man between you and god's message which invalidates it and invariably leads to one misunderstanding the message.
The fact that I do not speak or read Arabic is my fault for not learning it.
With you on that one - it is the same problem that I have with people taking the bible literally. Greek is a complex language, and there is often no direct translation into English, so you have to use 'guesswork.'
I am pretty sure that Hebrew, Arabic and Aramaic are the same.
Complex, yes, but also very specific, and clear in meaning(s).
That does not sound like the Greek that I am learning, and ancient Greek is even more tortuous.
I have many bilingual friends, and even they cannot make direct translations, and have to use a 'workaround' to translate.
Many Greek words can mean more than one thing, and others can have no meaning in English.
The different grammar structure makes it even more difficult - generalizations, OK, but trying to argue over the meaning of a specific word is futile.
correct it is very difficult to translate-it is very condensed philosophy where a single word can change the meaning.
Many Greek words can mean more than one thing, and others can have no meaning in English.
If you read an interlinial translation of the NT, it is easy to follow, almost word for word, including the grammar.
The Authorised Version (KJV) is the closest to the original greek text.
I had little trouble "getting it". I am tri-lingual, and it helps having a broader understanding of language (I guess).
There will be so much you will not understand like- "when thy eye be single" or "I am the light". This understanding is possible only by an enlightened one, someone who has gone beyond like Jesus.
Again, that is fine for generalizations, but still leaves much room open.
I remember the debate here about whether it is "suffer the witch not to live" of "suffer the poisoner..". It could mean both or neither, and nobody can actually say for certain what the original scribe was trying to say.
I agree with you. I live in France and speak acceptable French, pretty good Dutch and sloppy German. We often have conversations using all four languages because some words just do not translate. I remember having some good arguments over translations of Milton Dante and even Shakespeare.
Any one who thinks they can be clear in translating from an ancient language into a modern one already knows what it says
I would add any language ancient or modern , to translate it to another language and have the same essence will be very difficult. There is a lot of poetry in the Bible and Quran where two lines can have lot of meaning.
It is difficult - despite dj's "faith" that the bible was translated perfectly word for word.
Couldn't possibly be more difficult than extrapolating/interpreting fossil records and reaching evolutionary conclusions.
Oh well, in that case - it must be the perfect word of god.
Exactly my point dj - fossil records do require interpretation, and nobody has a definitive answer. It is merely an overall picture, and nobody claims any differently. That is not to say that the whole thing is not true, just that a picture needs to be built up.
The same with the bible translations - a general picture is fine, but you cannot break it down word for word. If you ask a Greek Orthodox priest whether the English translation is completely accurate, they just smile to themselves!
No question. Odd they accuse scientists of "guessing," as well........
It is extremely difficult to translate a spiritual test into another language as the meaning can be easily lost.There is too much depth. Do not remember the name of the translation( Holy Quran) which I have with me and keep reading from time to time but I can understand the essence of it.
Taken but then how do you expect others to learn? It has to be translated. I guess what they mean to say, if anyone translates the Qur'an (its not kuran) he/she may insert his/her own concepts in it and so the original teaching maybe lost but if the translation be done honestly then I don't think God's (I do not believe in him yet) will be lost. What say?
You require someone who is in a very high frequency, someone who has understood the meaning to translate a spiritual text and has a good command over both languages.
Actually that is wrong. I personally have an extremely high frequency. Far far higher than your puny intellects could grasp. And when I say unto you "verily the concept of two differing prophets who happen to represent the same god and one of them comes to correct the misinterpretations of another is almost certain to end in tears."
And the cleric who explained to me that it is not possible to get the message from a translation was adamant about this.
I personally have no interest in learning Arabic. I also have no interest in learning your god's will. Mainly because I understand that the concept of a god with a set of rules is completely man-made and absolutely written to control an ignorant populace.
And will invariably cause conflict. Feel free to read any history book to see what I say is truth. It is unavoidable.
Man communicates with god. God works through man.
These HISTORY BOOKS must be from celebrated hisorians like
1. Heroes and Hero worship by Thomas Carlyle.
2. Islam at Cross Road by Historian De Lacy O’Leary.
3. The Last Mughal by William Dalrymple
4. The Caliphate, Its Rise, Decline and Fall by English Historian Sir William Muir
6. The Hundred by Michael H. Hart
what's the point of fight in it. If some teacher teaches 2+2=5 which is wrong and another comes and corrects him or students that 2+2=4 then where is the fight matter???
The fight starts when truth does not goes down the throat of any mischief creator and repeatidly lays false allegations on the exposed truth.
If someone agrees with my view point then they are most welcome and its their choice, if someone disagrees then its also their choice and if someone wants to discuss an issue then i think it must be in a beutiful manner and language with supporting examples and evidences
not in this one smart guy
I was seeking it somewhereelse and I don't know why
may be trying to convince myself that evolution is not science
it is a way people use to materialize everything
I am trying to read Darwins's famous book rightnow (I suppose it is hard for my English and I would get a copy in Arabic)
till we meet
watch this video and tell me what took you so long ?
I'm glad there are experts in that field also. I take their expertise by "faith" also.
Thank you Mark, and Sufi. You have made my day.
The reality is that the primary message of the Bible is made MORE than CLEAR. You may argue over words, or interpretations or even translations, but that's missing the "forrest for the trees"
And there have never been any disagreements over what it says in the bible. Because it is so crystal CLEAR.
But I like what someone once said, "the things that unite us are far greater than the things that divide us".
Unfortunately - the things that unite us are usually a threat.
Aha! Now this is a perfect example of one person saying one thing and another person not understanding what the message is.
The thing that usually unites people is some sort of outside threat. You know - like all the religionists banding together to campaign to get rid of people who do not agree with their beliefs.
Or,like atheists rubbishing believers, untill they get off HP?
I do not band together with anyone to get rid of anyone else. None of the people I have ever associated with were of such ideology. Nor are the "teachers" I listen to motivated by such concepts.
But I have to remember, the OP is "off topic" to what I'm talking about.
Certainly - I understand the primary message of the bible (although I dislike the Old Testament intensely - a personal opinion). Whether you believe in the bible or not, the NT basically says 'be nice.'
No argument here!
Yes, but it says something FAR MORE important than that. Nearly all religions, etc say that. (or at least try to).
Not sure why you hate the OT though? All the killing maybe?
Exactly, which is way you very rarely see me involved in religion vs religion arguments - they seem to be a waste of time. To be fair, I can't remember seeing you denigrate another religion, so I think that we are in broad agreement there
Partly due to the killing and the idea of a vengeful God - something that goes against every grain of my being. I would turn my back upon a God that kills the firstborn, for example.
The other reason is that I am too much of a scientist and historian to accept the OT as truth. To me, it is a story based upon some historical events, much like the Iliad.
Having said all that, I wonder how much (you are aware) of the "teachings" in the OT are fundamentally entrenched in the society in which you (and I) live.
We often refer to it as the "Judeo/Christian society" we live in, in the west.
Probably true for much of the west, although Greece is very different. Historically, culturally and geographically, it is much closer to the East. Greek Orthodoxy encourages introspection and mysticism, just what you would expect in the land of philosophers.
Here, philosophy is the driving force underpinning society, which is why I am in love with the place
I have been to GO services, and I have Serbian Orthodox family. I am familiar with it's fundamental theology, so I feel confident to say that you have been markedly influenced by the OT.
The apostle Paul got many converts in Greece during his travels. Ephesus, (one of my favorite letters in the NT) and Corinth being the most predominant.
Never been there, but love the pictures I've seen.
Undoubtedly there is some, although much of that came via Islam - any culture is made up of many things. I know little of the Serbian Orthodoxy, so could not comment
From my own experiences here, though, I have had many conversations with priests, and they very rarely use the OT. Aristotle, Plato and Jesus make up the majority of any theological discussion.
Add to this that many Greek traditions and morals arise from way before the bible, and it is a very complex picture. Greek kids are taught philosophy from a young age, so their morality is based more in Aristotle's ethics than the commandments of Moses.
Back to the original point, just because there is some OT influence in the west does not mean that I have to like it or take it as a literal truth. On a personal note, I see little of the OT in my life - my morals and ethics arise from a completely different source.
"The Koran is not 2,000 y/o, which is where the quote is from.
You must be referring to the Bible. That is a whole different book(s) all together. Not to mention a different message."
1400 years, 2000 years--thanks for jumping on an opportunity to pump yourself up at my expense while totally ignoring the point of what I said.
Yeah you're brilliant, I'm a moron. I get it.
I don't believe it but I get it.
I was NOT trying to be rude! I do NOT think of you as a "moron". I don't even know you.
Certainly not about putting you (or anyone else) down.
Sorry you took it that way (or I made it look that way).
No problem. Sorry I got snappish.
I don't why I venture into these forums. I always get irritable here. I just don't understand how anyone could be so foolish as to focus on something like that (the Koran quote) and make it SUCH a big deal that it becomes an issue. It happens here in the U.S. with the Bible too. To my mind, a lot of this stuff is not that hard, we just make it hard. We make into this big deal thing when it's just a small deal thing.
Well, I'm back off to silk flower descriptions... (Now THERE'S an exciting project...)
pgrundy- I cannot remember now but aren't you the one with Clairaudience ability, the bhajans in the morning?
No, that was an Indian thing. As you can see, it hasn't helped me evolve any.
I think I mentioned it before that these powers are called siddhis , everyone does not have them ,they belong to the evolved
This is what I was trying to say earlier on psychic abilities, you may be clairaudience but not necessarily telepathic or clairvoyant so this field is too vast and impossible to really measure some ones caliber. .
I know, I love Hinduism. But I'm really kind of whiny and pissy as a human being. I don't say this to be down on myself or self-abusive, I'm just saying, I'm clearly NOT evolved.
I have an interest in Hindu chant. Lots of Kirtan tapes in my car.
You are just being nice and don't want to offend anyone.These powers come only after a lot of meditation,you have to be in tune with the cosmos or god,something all humans are not, call it evolution or whatever you want to
I know what you mean, and I don't want to derail this thread, but honest, I'm NOT just being nice. I had a spontaneous sort of weird experience and now these weird things happen to me sometimes. But I'm not Gandhi, trust me.
Maybe I will write a hub about it and we can have a discussion there. It kind of runs in my family.
I am really interested in chant though. Thanks for saying something nice here!
I understand what you mean, the Gandhi part is on its way-trust me and being nice to you is a pleasure and you are the first I have come across with whom I can speak about the abilities of clairaudience as you will understand would love to know more about your family,do write a hub and let me know-love Mohit
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