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Christians-- Do You Realize Jesus Was not Present at the Creation?

  1. celafoe profile image70
    celafoeposted 2 months ago

    Gen 1:1-4 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 
    ONLY GOD and HIS HOLY SPIRIT WERE PRESENT in the beginning. JESUS DOES NOT appear until after his birth from Mary His mother at the beginning of the new testament.. 
    Scripture is clear when properly understood. 3 entities not 3n1. God, His Son Jesus, God's Holy Spirit.   If He was God It would have been from the beginning and mentioned in Genesis.   Jesus is the Son of God.
    Jesus was born of the woman Mary His mother after being created in her by the Holy Spirit of God as all men are born of a woman.   He was born a man at the time determined by God to begin the final age of man and God's plan for the redemption of man as prophesied throughout the scriptures.   God gave Him all of the power and authority of God  for the final age of man which started at His birth and ends at the judgement.    At the judgement He surrenders all of the power and authority back to God from whence it was loaned to Him for this age, and sits down at the right hand of God in submission to Him, who then and forever is again all in all.

    Matt 28:18-20   And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth

    1 Cor 15:24-28  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    1. TimRBerman profile image82
      TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Actually, Jesus is a modern English rendition of Yeshua. Secondly, Paul, the Apostle, writes to the church in Colossea. He writes:

      "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and Earth ..." (Colossians 1:15-20).

      Him refers to Christ. Paul was taught by the Pharisee Gamalial. Jewish teaching reflects creation being accomplished by YHWH, or Yahweh.

      In textual criticism, the first account of creation is from the Eloist (E). This comprises Genesis 1:1-2:3. The secondary creation account is from the Yahweh (J) perspective and comprises Genesis 2:4-3:24. Jewish scholars believe the second account was written much earlier than the first.

      This is important to understand because, YHWH in Christian truth is the pre-incarnate Christ. John references this truth in his gospel where he says that the word was with God in the beginning, and the word is logos in Greek. Christ is contextually referred to as not only the word, he is referred to as being part of Creation (see John 1:1-3)

      Christ is also recorded as saying he is before Abraham and revealed he is "I am" (see John 8:48-59).

      Therefore, your premise is faulty and misses the truth regarding Christ being present at the time of creation.

      1. dianetrotter profile image81
        dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Celafoe, please publish a chapter at a time so we can discuss.  Perhaps, start with why you selected the topic.

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Isn't your spirit a part of you, to the point that it is you?  And yet you still have a body as well - it would seem that God and His spirit are 1.  It also seems that you are making assumptions when you say Jesus wasn't there, simply because it isn't mentioned.  As the creation of light and earth are reversed from what actually happened the failure to speak of every entity that was observing seems rather petty and not worthy of making deductions based on that failure.  (Was Gabriel or any other angels there?  Satan?  Any other ET that was not mentioned elsewhere?)

    3. Frank Menchise profile image25
      Frank Menchiseposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      This discussion about Jesus being present at the beginning, is an interesting discussion; but what you want to prove with it, I don't know. In one way or another it suggests that there is something wrong with our religious beliefs, either our Christian beliefs are wrong, or the way the Bible is written is not clear. I believe many people are going to follow this discussion, and I am one of them, just because I am interested in knowing religious issues, and what most people think about this issue.

      1. celafoe profile image70
        celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        because so many people can not understand the truths of scripture, but follow the teaching of men that cannot understand I have been praying for years that  The Holy Spirit will show me how to explain scripturally so all can understand.    Last night as I was asking this I was given what I need and am now in the process of writing an article explaining the ONE  reason for all the division in the "church" and will post it shortly.

      2. Michael-Milec profile image61
        Michael-Milecposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Frank Menchise Sir, your observation is on spot valid. It is only but a " "discussion" since the spiritual eternal matter of the Creator is here made an issue of man's- each of us " understanding " which is impossible. The God is Spirit - the eternal spirit which is communicating with His creation often in a bodily form  (Exodus 6:2.3.) . As and Omnipresent Spirit he can appear and disappear at certain place in " human form" while never ceasing to be  everywhere simultaneously. (This is too difficult  understandable to my small Slovak brain). However I KNOW it is true, see Isaiah 44:6; Rev.1:17; 2:8; 22:13) . Have a peaceful meditation.

    4. Michael-Milec profile image61
      Michael-Milecposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      How about if He was? Does our human brain ( no matter how "bornagain")has capacity to understand glorious handling of  Creators eternal values? Why then  Jesus would  say "Father, glorify me along with Yourself and restore me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with you BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED" ? ( end of sermon)

      1. dianetrotter profile image81
        dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Amen!

        1. Michael-Milec profile image61
          Michael-Milecposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          dianetrotter, you are probably like myself, I rather believe my Jesus.

          1. dianetrotter profile image81
            dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            \0/ \0/ \0/

      2. colorfulone profile image88
        colorfuloneposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        I love the Amplified version.

        1. celafoe profile image70
          celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          Colorful--Yes It is my favorite translation too,   I use several translations  but lean heavily on the word for word without added words Interlinear

          1. colorfulone profile image88
            colorfuloneposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            I have been studying word for word in Greek and Hebrew for over thirty years.  And, I am intimate with the Holy Ghost as Teacher, etc. 

            Logos

            ADDED: I do use several English translations that trusted Bible translators rate excellent to very good but with some errors.  The Amplified has a few errors, but is very good otherwise. I love how it is Amplified and very accurate.

      3. dianetrotter profile image81
        dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Michael - You reminded me...Phillippians 2:5-8
        5 Your attitude should be the kind that was shown us by Jesus Christ, 6 who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God, 7 but laid aside his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men.[a] 8 And he humbled himself even further, going so far as actually to die a criminal’s death on a cross.[b]

        Careful attention to the details of Phil 2:5-8 helps to state as well as the human mind can comprehend just what the kenosis involved and hence how His humanity and deity related to each other. He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and humbled Himself, becoming obedient to death. He stooped to servanthood and death with all the sovereign free will of One whose choices are limited only by His own holy and loving will.

        Celafoe, please explain passages we all cited in your exegesis please.  v. 6 above (THOUGH HE WAS GOD)

        I'm not trying to be sarcastic.  I'm willing to read what you write.

      4. celafoe profile image70
        celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Michael-- I look forward to your comments after I post the explantion

    5. Ceegen profile image85
      Ceegenposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Jesus created all things. (Ephesians ch3 v9, Colossians ch1 v16, Revelation ch4 v11). He would have had to have been there, to create them. Jesus IS God.

    6. dianetrotter profile image81
      dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Come on Celafoe!  Don't keep us waiting!

    7. dianetrotter profile image81
      dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Silence!

      Celafoe, have we won you over to the side that
      1  The Son is God. 
      2. The Son always existed in eternity past
      3.  The Son was indeed active in the creation along with the Father and Holy Spirit
      4. The Son was given the name, Jesus, for His virgin birth and earthly ministry

      The silence is deafening.

      1. Michael-Milec profile image61
        Michael-Milecposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        The God Has won, is winning is The Winner. How else would man's brain and vocabulary fathom and describe THE ETERNAL SPIRIT ?!
        Gloryyyyy.

        1. dianetrotter profile image81
          dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          Amen ..... but let's wait to hear from Celafoe.

      2. celafoe profile image70
        celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        no you have not, I choose to believe scripture not what people think.
        THIS IS NOT A GAME AS SOME SEEM TO THINK BY THEIR COMMENTS.
        (Not you diane  and a few others that are sincere)   THIS IS A MATTER OF ETERNAL LIFE OR DESTRUCTION.   It cannot be understood with the carnal mind of man

        The Scriptural Reason--Why There is So Much Confusion About Christianity   HUB HAS BEEN POSTED

        1. dianetrotter profile image81
          dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          Celafoe, I did not read it.  I'm sorry.  It's very long and quotes scriptures I definitely agree with; however, I don't understand the point.

          The topic does not hone in on the specific issue you brought up here.  You brought it up for a reason.  I would like to understand your reasoning.  I did a quick read on your hub and it was more general about understanding Scripture.

          To make the point, it is best, as you did here to make a point and support it with Scripture.

          1. TimRBerman profile image82
            TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            The issue is that he is appearing to promote himself as being the only authority on scripture and condemns anyone who dares to challenge his conclusions.

            Despite the fact he asks people to not even take his word for it. Yet, he violates his own admonishment and insists he is right while all others are wrong.

            This is evidenced by his approach.

    8. dianetrotter profile image81
      dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Celafore, I did a search, copy and paste to be able to discuss a point.
      1.  You seem to say Jesus is NOT God
      2.  He has allowed the Spirit of His Father to replace any personal spirit (I don't get it)
      3.  The only part (spirit) that can enter eternity (I Corinthians 15 speaks of a bodily research - flesh and spirit.  When Jesus appeared after resurrection, He had a resurrection  body that could be touched (Doubting Thomas)
      4.  He IS THE HUMAN IMAGE OF GOD (How does that mesh with the Word became flesh?)
      5.  You don't address any of the points any of us made here.

      You deflected from the conversation you started.  You never finished this one.

      From Celafoe's new article
      "Not that He is God or even that He was present there in body, but He has allowed the Spirit of His Father to replace any personal spirit and because the essence (The only part that can enter eternity) is in the Spirit, He now knows everything that ever happened and can say as He does, If you have seen me you have seen the Father, which NO MAN HAS SEEN. He IS THE HUMAN IMAGE OF GOD as we who were created in the image of God are also supposed to be. But in order to be this WE MUST have the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD RESIDING IN US. VERY FEW PEOPLE understand this and are willing to give up their person in exchange for His. But the scriptures even tell us that the indwelling Holy Spirit not only will teach us all things but He will also bring to our remembrance what Jesus said. Because if His Spirit has become your Spirit and then within your Spirit is all knowledge."

      1. celafoe profile image70
        celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Diane--
        1.yes Jesus is not God
        2. as i showed , scripture declares that we must be of one Spirit with God to enter the Kingdom. which Jesus is, we must also do, that is done by allowing the Holy Spirit to overcome your personal spirit , Jesus  explained, "my will is to do the will of my Father", which is only known by the Spirit of God
        3.When he appeared He was still the same physical human body that died and was resurrected.  He was not transfigured until He entered He entered into the Kingdom of Heaven
        4. Simply, He existed only as The Word of God describing  this man until He entered the world by being born ,as are all men, through the woman Mary, his mother.    What is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the Spirit is Spirit.   as the Son of God He had to be filled with the same Spirit as God, that is why it says He would be filled with the Holy Spirit from His mother's womb.  So He had His natural human spirit (from His  Mother) and the Holy Spirit (from His Father), two entirely different ones as do all humans when filled with the Holy Spirit.   He chose to listen to only the one that would please God as we all must do if we follow Him.
        I see my unfortunate choice of words, I will change it from "has allowed the Spirit of His Father to replace any personal spirit"
        to "So He had His natural human spirit (from His  Mother) and the Holy Spirit (from His Father), two entirely different ones as do all humans when filled with the Holy Spirit.   He chose to listen to only the one that would please God as we all must do if we follow Him."

        hope this helps

        1. dianetrotter profile image81
          dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          Celafoe, I know no Christian commentary that sources this.  The position is considered heretical and cultic.

          I don't think others here are disagreeing with each other.  It appears that you are the only one in the discussion holding this position. 

          I wanted to follow the convo through to understand exactly what point you were making.

          If Jesus is not God, the Bible should be thrown away.

          1. colorfulone profile image88
            colorfuloneposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            The Son was before all of creation:

            Colossians
            1:15-23
            15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
            17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
            19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
            21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
            22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-
            23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
              NIV

          2. Michael-Milec profile image61
            Michael-Milecposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            Many millions  or perhaps billions have already declared that "Jesus is not God." Or " God is not God." Or Holy Spirit is only God  within God, not within Jesus Christ...
            How much more confusion is needed to be robbed of trusting The Word?!

            1. dianetrotter profile image81
              dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              Everyone starts in unbelief.  We were born that way!  It is a personal choice that we make to accept Christ.  Once we do, the growth process begins.  I've been a Christian 37 years and have studied progressively.  There are many things I don't know and I am not perfect.

              I am able to give a reason for the Hope that lies with in me.  I'm not saying it to boast.  It is the Christians responsibility to desire the sincere milk of the work to grow.  I Peter 2:2.

              At some point, we should be beyond milk and on meat.  Hebrews 5:12  In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

        2. dianetrotter profile image81
          dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          Virgin birth

          Celafoe, the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she became pregnant.  Humans are procreated from fertilized sperm.  An angel of the Lord appeared to tell Joseph "Don't worry.  She hasn't had sex."  I don't think you are reading with continuity.  it seems you select passages to support your point.

          Matthew  1:18-25

          18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

          20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

          1. dianetrotter profile image81
            dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            Isaiah 9:6Living Bible (TLB)

            6 For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder. These will be his royal titles: “Wonderful,” “Counselor,” “The Mighty God,” “The Everlasting Father,” “The Prince of Peace.”

          2. celafoe profile image70
            celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            no you do not understand scripture.   There was NO SEX INVOLVED WHEN GOD CREATED THE FIRST 2 OF MAN, MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM.

            1. dianetrotter profile image81
              dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              Why would you say I don't understand.  God CREATED Adam and Eve.  He did not create His Son.  His Son always existed as did the Father and Holy Spirit.

              1. celafoe profile image70
                celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                I supply the path to the water -  whether you drink or not is your decision.
                Diane,  God is the first and the last, God identified Jesus that was to come and then created Him in the womb of mary to fulfill the words of God.   If God did not create Him how did He get in mary's womb and grow there like any other child?   THis is not about the things of the invisible kingdom to come this is about flesh and blood human birth death and resurrection in THIS AGE, NOT THE ETERNITY YET TO COME.

                As I explained in detail unless you can took through the eyes of the Holy Spirit you cannot correctly understand the things of God.   If you accept the works of man called the "church system", with clergy , neither of which are to be found in the new testament age in which we live then you will never be able to see the things of God because He is not to be found there.

                1. TimRBerman profile image82
                  TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  Translation, I'm right and you are wrong because I have the spirit and you don't. Too bad it's a false and deceiving spirit that is.preaching a false gospel.

                2. dianetrotter profile image81
                  dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  Church in New Testament

                  Acts 11:26
                  and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

                  Paul's letters were written to the churches.  They were read to the congregations.  Churches are addressed in Revelations prior to the tribulation period.  Commentary from Dr. Jeremiah.  Scriptures directly from Bible.

                  1.  The church of Ephesus had many positive qualities; Christ commended them in five specific ways—they were dynamic, dedicated, determined, disciplined, and discerning (Revelation 2:2-3). But verse 4 reveals where they went wrong. “Nevertheless, I have this against you, that you have left your first love.” Everything about the Ephesian church looked good on the outs

                  . SMYRNA — THE SUFFERING CHURCH (REVELATION 2:8-11)
                  Christians in developed countries today think little about being persecuted for their faith. But there are churches in the world where such persecution is a daily reality. Such was the case for the ancient church in Smyrna. They suffered because of pressure, poverty, and persecution (Revelation 2:9). Christ’s words to that church can prepare all believers for what might come.

                  3. PERGAMOS — THE COMPROMISING CHURCH (REVELATION 2:12-17)
                  Pergamos was nicknamed “Satan’s City.” The Christians in Pergamos were surrounded by pagan beliefs and practices. In spite of their faithfulness in some areas, the Christians in Pergamos had compromised their faith in others. They had allowed idolatry to creep into their congregation.

                  4. THYATIRA — THE ADULTEROUS CHURCH (REVELATION 2:18-29)
                  There are Christians and churches today who feel a need to be relevant and all-inclusive when it comes to spiritual and moral boundaries. The ancient church in Thyatira must have felt that way as well. This church allowed an immoral individual to lead many others away from Christ (Revelation 2:20). What does Christ say to a church that is tolerating immorality in her midst?

                  5. SARDIS — THE DEAD CHURCH (REVELATION 3:1-6)
                  With this church there are no commendations; Christ begins immediately with a denunciation: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.” The church was full of what we today would call “nominal Christians”—Christians in name only. Christ gives five specific directions for the church that is dead.

                  Be Sensitive to the Inroads of Sin in the Church (verse 2)
                  Be Supportive of Those Who Remain True to Christ in the Church (verses 2, 4)
                  Be Submissive to the Control of the Holy Spirit in the Church (verse 3)
                  Be Subject to the Authority of God’s Word in the Church (verse 3)
                  Be Sorry and Repent for the Sin of the Church (verse 3)

                  6. PHILADELPHIA — THE FAITHFUL CHURCH (REVELATION 3:7-13)
                  Christ commended the church in Philadelphia for four things: they have an open door, they have a little strength, the have kept the Word of God, and they have not denied the Lord. If we want to be commended by Christ like this church, we will go through open doors of ministry, depend on His strength, and be true to Him and to His Word. What does this mean for us today?

                  7. LAODICEA — THE LUKEWARM CHURCH (REVELATION 3:14-22)
                  The church in Laodicea was lacking in every way. It was a compromising, conceited, and Christless church and Christ said that it made Him sick (Revelation 3:16). Today’s Church should take note; those words may apply to us as well. We would be well advised to apply this counsel to our lives and churches today.

                  1. celafoe profile image70
                    celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    diane- sorry but not one of the scriptures is talking about what you call a church.   This is what I discussed  about the translators of that  called bible using their beliefs to lead in the direction they believe rather than what scripture actually means,    that is how the false clergy got the masses to believe their lie about the church being a building with clergy that you are to attend and serve their  hireling. 
                    the scriptures you listed are talking about the word ekklesia incorrectly 
                    translated as church but properly translated as assembly.   It is not talking about a building with clergy that the c"churches of men" call a church.    the new testament church speaks only of an assembly of believers whenever and where ever they meet, never a building and never with the people being led by a man.  ..  there is NO CLERGY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AGE THAT WE LIVE IN.   the assemblies belonging to God are to be led by the Holy Spirit.

                3. dianetrotter profile image81
                  dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  Celafoe, It is very important for Christians to study the Bible to be able to determine when something doesn't sound right.  When a person says the Holy SPirit is only understood by him/her, that is the beginning of a Jim Jones, Rev. Ike, koolaid cult.  Why should people who do not know you trust you over what the Holy Spirit is saying to them.

                  1 Timothy 1:3  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus (Ephesus = church, Book of Ephesians) so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer

                  1 Timothy

                  Beware of false teachers: warn your people
                  4 1-2 God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of the devil, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh.

                  There are others.  What makes you right and all of us wrong.  God will judge those who led others astray.

                  1. TimRBerman profile image82
                    TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    Dianne,

                    As you are able to see, there is no reasoning with this individual. He's convinced he's right and everyone else is wrong.

                  2. celafoe profile image70
                    celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    diane--I know who I follow and welcome His judgement between me and those hirelings of  "churches of men who espouse the doctrines of men, saying they are His doctrines which they are not.   I EXPECT the false judgements of people that are walking in their flesh, BUT DO NOT WELCOME OR RECEIVE THEM.
                    unlike the hireling,I HAVE NEVER or would I ever tell anyone to believe me, I say I present scriptural truth and ALWAYS CLEARLY SAY DO NOT TRUST ME OR ANY OTHER MAN until and unless the Holy Spirit of God confirms it as truth.    Yet you and others falsely accuse me, saying that I say those things,it is a lie,   I even make that clear on my profile..
                    This alone validates the fact that you that make this accusation against me are walking in YOUR FLESH and ARE NOT WALKNG IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.   
                    I never said no one else understands the Holy Spirit, there are a great number that do but you do not find them in the "churches of men".   You find them on their knees in the closet talking to God or trying to show truth to the saints that are deceived by the false "church".                      I said the hirelings, those who work for a salary, that run the big business called "church" by those that are  lazy, too self absorbed, to hungry for power over men, or whatever their reason.  to to spend the hours necessary in scripture to learn truth the "church". or most likely God has, because of their rebellion,by  promoting the doctrines of men instead of His doctrine, just sent them a strong delusion so they CANNOT believe truth and only believe what feels good to them.
                    no man filled with the Holy Spirit of God can declare he is the pastor of his church, unless it is his church and not of God, which is in fact the truth.   God would not allow it.  see scripture below.   Jesus said to His beloved Peter "get behind me satan" for saying/doing what was not of God.   and a man declaring himself to be senior pastor is the ultimate in blasphemy.    These men get away with it because they ARE building THEIR "church" and God allows them to so that those who desire to be led by men instead of being directly accountable to God  have confirmation of their beliefs.  They say they are the only true "church" and bring people into their "church", not into the kingdom of God.   Where scripture says the  men that are ANOINTED BY GOD have no demands and are happy with the things promised by God to His followers,( food, clothing, shelter) are the only things we are to expect.   There is no promise for comfort, cars (or donkeys), homes, airplanes, gourmet foods, buildings, retirement plans( a man that is anointed by God and follows Him alone knows his retirement plan is eternity with his Savior. or anything else. but the hireling cannot provide for his own needs, that would be below him, he the  great man of god is ENTITLED to the best, anything his heart desires is due him, he is deceived.         In fact He promises us that follow Him the opposite, we will be hated by men (the ones wanting to usurp the place of Jesus) and mistreated at every turn, not honored or gloried by man..
                    I care not what any man thinks or says about me, I serve God and He will Judge me but woe unto those who have misjudged me in their flesh  if it turns out that I am correct, and He says I am.

                    I believe you, unlike some on here, have an honest desire for truth.    It takes time to see truth when you are accustomed to  (contrary to scripture) listening to men that preach the doctrines of men instead of scripture
                    All this about whether Jesus is God or not,  IS TOTALLY FRUITLESS AND HAS NO CURRENT VALUE, IT IS A  set up by the  "churches of men" TO KEEP THE  SAINTS FROM PURSUING THE TRUTHS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO THEIR SALVATION.   It really does not matter because it really effect in God's plan so I really do not care what you believe on this subject and will no longer waste time on it.

                    please understand what you believe will not affect me but it will determine your end.  Eternity or destruction, choose carefully.
                    I love the saints and as does God, I desire that all come to a place of salvation in Him, even tho I know not all will I press on.
                    God will richly bless only those who follow Him exclusively through Jesus Christ.
                    John 10:12-16
                    12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.  13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.  14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.  15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.  16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

            2. dianetrotter profile image81
              dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              I hope you don't think I am upset.  I am not.  It is important to me to understand where you get your philosophy from.  After 37 years I am solidly entrenched in what I belief as well as many of the arguments people present to try to contradict them.

            3. TimRBerman profile image82
              TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              The only person here who is showing g a lack in understanding scripture is you Charlie. Yet, you continue to.screech how we all are deceived. The reality is, it appears you are in denial of your own false teachings that have been adequate exposed.

        3. TimRBerman profile image82
          TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          CHARLIE

          You summed up your position. "1.yes Jesus is not God".

          As Dianne and others, including myself, have pointed out is heretical and false.

          Yet, you claim no one take man's word, including yours, on this subject.

          Therefore, I have studied this out. And, like others, have pointed out your false and heretical teaching.

          Now, you may continue to.preach and teach the false doctrine of denying the preeminence, divinity, and scripture truth that Christ is God and the Son of God at your peril; or, come to realize the erroneous and false teaching for what it is and seek truth. It's your choice. Either remain accursed for teaching false doctrine, or repent and seek out the truth and embrace the truth.

    9. dianetrotter profile image81
      dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      I'm feeling led to leave this discussion.  There are times when we have to shake the dust off our feet. Continuing to pray,
      Diane

      1. celafoe profile image70
        celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        diane-- amazing I feel the same way

  2. colorfulone profile image88
    colorfuloneposted 2 months ago

    1 Peter 1:
    19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

    20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.

    21 Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God.…

    1. celafoe profile image70
      celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      all those are true but posting scriptures alone like that serves no useful purpose without understanding scripture correctly and really knowing what they mean and how they are actually true as is my statement

      1. dianetrotter profile image81
        dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        With all due respect, what is the point of the question?  Is it to say that Jesus was a man?

        Would you explain this please?  John 1;1 
        In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

        Given
        1.  He was not given the name Jesus until:  Verse (Click for Chapter)
        New International Version
        She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
        2.  God was not created or born.  He always existed.

        Have you written any books or reference guides on this?

        1. celafoe profile image70
          celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          dianne- see above comment, I am currently writing it and will be posting it shortly

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            Have to go with Diane here - while it sounds great to claim "no one knows what scripture means but me, and everyone that disagrees with my opinion is wrong", it would be much better with some proof rather than just a bald statement that only you, out of billions of people, have the answer.

            1. celafoe profile image70
              celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              I NEVER SAID OR WILL SAY  that no one knows scripture but me.   I ALWAYS SAY NO ONE KNOWS SCRIPTURE CORRECTLY BUT THE Holy Spirit of God who was sent to bring/teach us ALL TRUTH.
              and I also always say" As I tell you in everything I write-- do not believe what any man (including me) tells you until and unless it is confirmed as truth by the Holy Spirit of God." .
              are you willing to do the same?

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                "really knowing what they mean and how they are actually true as is my statement"

                Perhaps I misunderstood - I assumed that because others don't really know what scriptures mean but your statement is true that you must know what they mean.  Sorry about that.

                But I would say, as well, that most people that profess to know what scripture means also indicates that the Holy Spirit of God has given them that information.  That the information differs person to person doesn't seem to be considered.

                Yes, I am absolutely willing to disbelieve what others say until they are shown to be correct.  Whether by the Holy Spirit (and not just the claim that the Spirit told them so) or other means.

                1. celafoe profile image70
                  celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  wilderness--great sousnds like we are actually in agreement. on all points listed

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    All except the part "how they are actually true as is my statement" - so far any support for the statement is lacking.  The only thing you've supplied is the thought that because Genesis did not specifically list Jesus as an observer means he wasn't there; an obvious fallacy.

          2. dianetrotter profile image81
            dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            ok.  Don't forget to cite references.

            1. celafoe profile image70
              celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              I always give scripture in contect and the warning
              As I tell you in everything I write-- do not believe what any man (including me) tells you until and unless it is confirmed as truth by the Holy Spirit of God.

      2. colorfulone profile image88
        colorfuloneposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Oh, really?  Really? 
        This might be entertaining.

        1. celafoe profile image70
          celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          yes really

    2. Onusonus profile image86
      Onusonusposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      Looks pretty obvious to me. Case closed.

  3. profile image61
    Harold Clayposted 2 months ago

    Celafoe you are correct in what you say.  Often we find people who think they have learned all they need to know when it comes to understanding scripture and the message God is trying to reveal. There's 3 people on hub that I follow, who I feel show great understanding of scripture... you, Judah's daughter, and planksnnails.  Keep up the good work.

  4. johnceccon profile image79
    johncecconposted 2 months ago

    John 1:1 says  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then in verse 14 John identifies the Word as Jesus and writes And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Seems like a no brainer. Jesus WAS there in the beginning.

    1. celafoe profile image70
      celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      john=  you bible might sat that or that may be your interpretation of what is said but it is not what the scriptures say          bibles are not scripture they are  interpretations of scripture by men and include some  the opinions of those doing the interpretation.   
      what it actually is saying cannot be understood unless you understand the full reality of understanding and possessing the fullness of the infilling of the Spirit of God.
      Stay tuned  , I am currently writing the details of how to understand it so that anyone with an ear to hear the truth can understand it.  and will be posting it soon.   



      jn

      1. TimRBerman profile image82
        TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        May I recommend taking some courses on proper biblical interpretation. This last comment has shown any proper ability to reason and interpret scripture.

        Argumentation is flawed, presentation is immature and lacking any coherent sense of meaning and understanding.

        And, argumentation is filled with deflection, incongruent statements, as well as having a  tone of "I am right and you are wrong" without any real honest investigation into the matter.

        Finally, it appears you are not open to correction, and unwilling to consider any evidence presented that may very well go against your present belief.

        People, including myself, has shown how you are scripturally in error of your premise. Yet, instead of discussing and seeing whether or not your assumptions are truly scripturally sound, you appear to write off any possibility you may very well be wrong. On what basis, the spirit told me so.

        I am unable to take any scriptural or doctrinal position you present as relevant.

        How come? I'm well versed in hermanuetics, ancient near Eastern Religious thought, apologetics.

        I'm confident to say your premise is faulty and childish. Your reasoning is irrational and illogical. And your understanding of proper scriptural interpretation is lacking.

        1. celafoe profile image70
          celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          berman--you have NOTHING THAT I OR ANYONE SEEKING TRUTH DESIRES.   did you read or just glance before your attack?
          its people like you (the previous , dead, age attacks what they do not understand) that follow the works of men instead of scripture and the Holy Spirit..   you are making false accusations about me and you really know nothing about me.    I do not fit your pattern of what you expect form man so you try to discredit me.   I see you are from seattle ( ONE OF THE MOST liberal-man centered AREAS OF THE COUNTRY), and have read your profile and looked at and read one of you article and I certainly do not know much about you but from what I read you are correct in only one thing you said here .  I definately will not receive anything from you.
          you said "How come? I'm well versed in hermanuetics, ancient near Eastern Religious thought, apologetics."   wow all that and $5 might get you a cup of coffee but it has NO ETERNAL VALUE as it is all man centered.   The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual kingdom, it is not about being human and the ways of man, it is training to prepare for and enter  life after the end of this age , the final age of man.      After the end of this there will be no mankind so understanding the way taught by men that bring division (denomination, non-denomination, buildings and clergy) that do not exist in the new testament so they are all USELESS.
          YOU ARE TYPICAL THOUGH ,WHEN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND you try to discredit.   If you really had a clue you would have used your great knowledge and given supporting material but you just attack what you know not of--   the apostle Paul had the same problem  with people like you, you do not affect me, i do not and will not answer to the likes of you.   you are trying to promote the human race and God is promoting a change from human to Spiritual  they can not be joined together, I must die that He may live in me..or as scripture says it.
          1 Cor 15:50-51   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
          Gal 5:24-26   And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

          1. TimRBerman profile image82
            TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            You stated: "berman--you have NOTHING THAT I OR ANYONE SEEKING TRUTH DESIRES.   did you read or just glance before your attack?"

            My response: your first sentence is faulty. It's presumptuous and appears to be made from a position of closed-mindedness. Meaning, any person challenging your presuppositions and presenting any error in your argument is already deemed to be in error without proper examination. It essentially prevents any honest dialogue going forward. It is quite characteristic of people who are entrenched in a false belief system, and laden with denial of any possibility of being in error.

            The second sentence is irrational and illogical as it makes a false conclusion that by my examination, it automatically warrants a behavior known as deflection and blame. Otherwise, it is a form of detouring by making a faulty assumption and conclusion. Yes, I did indeed read the atrocious question. I did indeed respond from a logical, mindful, and scripturally sound position. I have also read the commentary.

            Did I attack you personally? No, that would be an ad hominem. No, I am employing a rational and critical analysis of the presenting tone and behavior. I'm offering a more constructive criticism in presenting how your premise and argument is faulty. The interpretation you appear to have derived at is known as personalization. An irrational form of limited thinking and thought processing that begets negative feelings of resentment, frustration, anger, and other such negative emotions.

            You stated: "its people like you (the previous , dead, age attacks what they do not understand) that follow the works of men instead of scripture and the Holy Spirit.. "

            My response: Your next set of statements is what is defined as an ad hominem. Filled with false judgments. There is no evidence to support your assertion here.

            You stated: "you are making false accusations about me and you really know nothing about me.    I do not fit your pattern of what you expect form man so you try to discredit me. "

            My response: Again, emotional drivel based on faulty assumptions. I make no pretense about who a person is or is not. Therefore I am mindful of the individual. I have no expectation at all.

            However, when you make a public statement or a public assertion, it will be placed under consideration to determine the rationale behind it. This is where objective and critical thinking comes into play.

            Therefore, this is not about you personally, it is more about what you are staying and reporting to be truth. And, if what you are presenting and reporting publicly as being truth is reviewed and tested against particular means of critical analysis reveals it is in error, then it is far better to.expose the false premise and teaching for what it is.

            And, since we are talking about scripture this is what Paul referred to when he wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16. Your premise is false based on the available evidence of appropriate interpretation of scripture.

            As for the rest of the knee-jerk emotional drivel, nothing more than ad hominem, general ad hominem, red herring, and other logical fallacies.

            No one will have an impact on you because you appear to feel far more superior to any other person who remotely disagrees with or challenges you. This is arrogant, and quite atrocious.

            In the end, it appears there is strong ambivalence to any proper honest discussion.

            1. celafoe profile image70
              celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              trb-  go play some place else I have nothing more to say to you.   I have more important things to do with my valuable time.

              1. TimRBerman profile image82
                TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                Thank you. It appears, your last comment proves there is no person worthy of discussing this topic with you because you appear to dislike being challenged and unwilling to see how erroneous you're argument is. This is based on the presenting behavior in how you've chosen to communicate.

                1. profile image61
                  Harold Clayposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  What verses make you think Jesus was alive and living in the beginning? Jesus was born a man. The word is Yehshua but that doesn't mean He was alive in heaven.

                  1. TimRBerman profile image82
                    TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    See my initial response up above regarding your question.

    2. dianetrotter profile image81
      dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      an active participant at that!

      1. celafoe profile image70
        celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        dianne and all others with the exception of berman.
        I appreciate all of your questions and welcome them.    this article has grown (the number of issues I need to cover), so is taking a bit longer that I expected.   But I am still planning to post it soon.   After I post it I will gladly answer any questions that remain.   thank you

        1. dianetrotter profile image81
          dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          cool!  Going to bed now.  I'll check back tomorrow morning.

          Goodnight!

          1. celafoe profile image70
            celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            no problem, it will be a few days as I have some others thing to do.   also, I usually wait 24 hrs and recheck my work before I post it

          2. celafoe profile image70
            celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            The Scriptural Reason--Why There is So Much Confusion About Christianity  hub has been posted

            1. dianetrotter profile image81
              dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              What happened to the subject here?  Jesus did not participate in creation.  Are you saying there is confusion or he did not participate?

              1. celafoe profile image70
                celafoeposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                He did not participate.   
                read the article it explains it.   that is what i agreed to do explain the scriptures that show  what I stated

                if you read it and still have questions I will answer them but unless you understand the basis for the question.  questions are supposition.
                as the article explains it is all about seeing things in the Spiritual realm of God instead of the carnal realm  of the "church system"

                1. PhoenixV profile image79
                  PhoenixVposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  It seems an exercise in futility.  In a few centuries Mary and Joseph will be Co-gods / mother-father god and Paul will be satan. If we have not arrived there already.

                2. TimRBerman profile image82
                  TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  Again, you are showing how erroneous you are in an attempt to show how Christ was not part of Creation. Face it Charlie, you appear to have no true scriptural understanding. It is quite evident and apparant.

  5. TimRBerman profile image82
    TimRBermanposted 2 months ago

    You've taken this out of context and constructed a straw man argument. Go back read it carefully and examine the passages I've presented instead of isolating and taking out of context what I've stated.

    Also respond to my initial comment and not here.

    By the way, the position I'm seeing here is a second century valintinian Gnostic tradition deemed heretical.

  6. Live to Learn profile image80
    Live to Learnposted 2 months ago

    Wow. Someone who was at creation and saw it all first hand. Someone who knows who was there. I'm so impressed.

  7. PhoenixV profile image79
    PhoenixVposted 2 months ago

    habla ingles?

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

    1. TimRBerman profile image82
      TimRBermanposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      I forgot about Hebrews 1. Thank you for providing this.

      1. PhoenixV profile image79
        PhoenixVposted 2 months ago in reply to this

        Glad to be of service. You cannot have an heir without a predecessor. It is the law.

  8. TimRBerman profile image82
    TimRBermanposted 2 months ago

    I find this quite interesting.

    "There are so many people on here that want to teach, but are not equipped-- do not really understand scripture.   To all that are in this category i say this-- If you place a teaching that clearly contradicts scripture, cannot be proven by scripture (in correct context)  be prepared to have it judged against the scriptures."

    This is from his profile. His position cannot be proven by scripture. It's been shown to be in error, contradictory, and therefore, by his own words, lacking understanding because he appears to not be equipped.

  9. PhoenixV profile image79
    PhoenixVposted 2 months ago

    I think I have some pitchforks and torches in the shed. BRB.

  10. Kiss andTales profile image24
    Kiss andTalesposted 2 months ago

    The question is a good one to think about but not very hard at all .According to this scripture it is very clear. Notice" let us "
    "Our"  means more then one person present.
    If I said let us build robots , would that be me alone ? No another person or persons are  involved.

    Ge 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”

    The very reason is connected to this scripture

    Col 1:16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.
    Also consider what is written in these.

    Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men. 

    Something to really think about but the answers are there for us.

  11. TimRBerman profile image82
    TimRBermanposted 2 months ago

    Michael, I've studied this out. Both from Jewish scholarship and Christian scholarship. So, unless you are willing to provide definitive scriptural authority that Christ was not present and active in the creation process, then there is no need to further this discussion.

    Neither you or Charlie has actually addressed the plethora of New Testament passages that clearly teach Christ was not only present at the time of creation, He actually was the one who created all things. This is based on the proper interpretation of Hebrews 1, Colossians, John 1, and other such passages.

    Merely refuting with the arrogant and pompous mantra of "the holy spirit told me so" and the continual blithering statement of "you don't have the holy spirit and therefore can't understand the spiritual things of God" is typical drivel of false teachers and progniters of erronous and false doctrine.

    What you two preach and appear to sustain is antichristian doctrine. Not because I said so, because it's been adequetly established by scripture itself.

    If you want to continue to believe, that's at your peril. However, if you continue to preach, then your preaching false doctrine that is antichrist as it denies the divinity and deity of Jesus Christ.

    So, come back when you are capable of providing actual proof from scholarly and scriptural support for your assertion. Until then, ye are accursed.

    1. Live to Learn profile image80
      Live to Learnposted 2 months ago in reply to this

      lol So, what are you? The pirate apostle?

  12. Hmtrio2 profile image87
    Hmtrio2posted 2 months ago

    Christ was indeed present at the creation. But the bodily man Jesus wasn't present because Christ hadn't been given a fleshly body until the new testament age. When Christ was born he became Jesus Christ.

 
working