In discussion here on hubpages, we hear some accuses religion people of being judgemental and more over accuses religious people of forcing their believes and policies on the American people through laws...
That is not the religion or people I know. Where is this disconnect coming from?
Could it be the tactic of non religious people to define the oposition?
This is a common practice in politics. By defining your opponents, you control the conversation and forces the other side to play defense.
Religion has been given a bad wrap in my opinion.
We do not want to judge others, God is the only judge and that happens only when we die and meet our maker.
In addition, our laws are secular. We have the first ammendment to prevent government intrusion on religion, not the other way around, as some will have you belief.
My observation is that religion does attempt to control politics in this country. Religious people have gotten a bad rap but I've read enough religious comments on hub pages which are judgmental and over the top to understand the validity of some of the complaints.
That may be true but it applies to any large group, especially when their are so many denominations. You can't paint a group with a broad brush. In my religious circles, we don't judge or force our views on anyone. We just want to be left alone. We demonstrate our faith by practice. If anything, it is the aclu types who are trying to create conflict. IMHO
I would agree with you and I've always thought some of the over the top (and what I consider slightly insane) judgmental religious posters on Hub Pages are people posing as such to make the rest of us look bad. But, the damage is done and we all have to deal with the prejudices created.
I think you very badly underestimate the number of religious people, or churches, that will go to considerable lengths to force their belief onto others.
It may be through constant barrage of advertising (I can't drive a mile without seeing billboards or other signs exhorting church attendance), it may be through fighting tooth and nail for laws designed to force religious dogma onto others (think gay rights, abortion, and blue laws to start with), it may be by using legal power to prohibit free exercise of belief (think the Kentucky woman refusing to issue marriage licenses). It might be the Texas school book fiasco, it might be teaching ID in schools as science rather than myth or religion. It might be skinheads or the KKK using God's Word to promote racism, it might be the use of public resources to promote or aid a specific religion. Religious discrimination in the workplace is alive and well in my area, where workers must be of a specific faith to hold a job in too many companies.
Wherever we look we can find, if we are honest about it, attempts by religions and churches to force others to abide by the beliefs of that religion or church. The religious people I associate with take your tack, and leave others alone (outside of an occasional and rare invitation to worship, which I have no problem with), but there are a great many that just can't leave it be. They may, in fact, tell you that they have a mandate from God to spread his word and worship, and will make no bones about wanting laws to enforce their god's rules.
Wow, you are lumping a lot of groups there. Most christians in my area keep to them selves. I get a few jahovah witnesses at my door once in a while that's sbout it. As far as law goes, the changes have been coming from the left... such as gay marriage and gender neutral bathroom ... the country is not ready for these open liberal policies.
Why isn't the "country" ready for those open liberal policies? Answer; because the churches and religious don't like them. Few people have any reason, outside of a religious one, to deny gay marriage. No one has a valid reason for blue laws, but they still exist in some places and come directly from religion. No one has a valid reason, except for a religious one, for not selling alcohol on Sunday, but a great many places don't allow it. There are still dry counties in the country...because religion demands it.
Many of these laws are long-standing, but that doesn't mean they didn't originate in the church, and it certainly doesn't mean the church isn't fighting to maintain them...for no more reason that they think their god wants them to force everyone into compliance.
And you still have left the religious icons we all pay for, the forced teaching of myth as science, the removal of atheists from textbooks, etc.
You might consider that you may be missing much of these kinds of things because 1) they don't matter to you or 2) you agree with them and thus they don't hit your radar. But they strike that of other people, and it isn't appreciated.
A possible example of this thing of going under your radar (I'm assuming you are Christian): A few years ago I attended a rodeo, put on by the city and held in the city arena. We were asked to stand and I could see the flag entering - I assumed the national anthem was next.
But no - the horse rider with the flag stopped and we were regaled for the next 10 minutes or so with a "prayer" telling us we needed to teach our children the glories of God. Then the flag entered and we had the anthem.
Now you might enjoy this, or not, but I doubt you would actively object. But this is a government function, in a government facility - a religious observation being paid for by my city is completely out of line and it was very offensive. It was offensive that my taxes paid for it, but it was also offensive that I was expected to stand respectively and listen to some yahoo fill the arena with his crap about his god as if it were all true!
Stripped of the emotionalism, does that make sense - why it might go right over your head, completely unrecognized, but be very offensive to someone else?
Here's another example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … anned.html
where Christian literature was allowed in schools but ONLY Christian. It should be noted that the same woman has locked horns with the same school later on as the school requires prayer at some school functions...Christian prayer, of course. http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news … y/9643587/
Just because some ideas or traditions were religious based in the past does not make them less valid. For example, the family and the 10 commandments are rules that are benificial to society. Lying and cheating and not honoring our parents... were deemed detrimental to human relationships.
The secular groups wants to demonize all religion and religious practices because they don't want to be held to some standards of behavior. This anything goes mentality is what got us here with all the drugs and crimes and fake news...
I think there is more to religion than just a faith in a higher power. It is a set of rules and behavior that is good for all people.
This latest gender neutral bathrooms is a good example where modern thinking is out of whack. We have a two gender/sex biology. No amount of laws can change that. Yes, we have gays and transgenders but they are a small per cent of the population. I don't want to discriminate against them but I don't want them setting the whole culture on its head. Children had a right to grow up in a "normal" environment without being confused at young age about their sexual identity.
Oh my - I'm not sure where to start, you're so far off what I consider to be "base".
Although I don't sympathize with gender neutral bathrooms, I'll start with the quaint notion that there are but two genders. We know better, whether religious belief agrees or not. So how about catching up there, instead of remaining locked to centuries old perverted ideas on anything to do with sex.
Moving on to these great rules and laws that are good for "all people". Like the blue laws, or not selling booze on Sunday. Like discriminating against gays in housing or other matters. Like not hiring workers unless you like their religious affiliation. Like not allowing two loving people to marry because they aren't like you. Like opposing any reasonable abortion compromise. Like requiring Christian icons on public property, maintained by public funding. Like removing holiday observations from schools. Like allowing parents to deny medical care to ill children. I could add from other religions, but let's stick to Christianity as that is the biggest problem in the US.
These aren't "good for all people"! They fit with the requirements of specific churches, but that's all - it isn't good for anyone to have stores closed because it's "God's day", or to be denied the right to marriage. It can only cause harm to people, not good, to teach small children that a myth is actually hard science, discovered using the rules and methodology of scientific investigation.
Maybe a comparison: would it irritate you, or other Christians, to require any Christian sect to pay taxes on their buildings and salaries? To classify church bells as obnoxious noise? To deny street parking outside a church? To require churches to fulfill all requirements of other businesses (street lights, security, etc.)? If we allow public nudity (which harms no one), would it annoy you? If we require nude swimming at public pools (keep cloth fibers out of pumps and filters) would you be happy?
These things are "good for everyone" and "beneficial to society" - would they please you or irritate you? The people having to put up with ancient, ignorant and often perverted rules from religion feel the same way. Let religion keep their rules behind their own closed doors and the rest of us continue our lives without interference. The religiously affiliated are more than welcome to keep their culture, but the "whole culture" you reference most definitely includes other people and their ideas; let them live as they choose without imposing useless rules on them.
Finally to say the all secular groups want to "demonize all religion and religious practices" is silly - all they ask is to be left alone, out of the religious rules and requirements.
The "nothing goes" mentality is, after all, what brought about the dark ages when religion held absolute control; it's long past time that such was ended. (Sarcasm, as the "anything goes" mentality did NOT bring about drugs, crimes and fake news. Scripture itself gives God's instructions on murdering people of different countries, after all, along with crimes worthy of death such as wearing of different cloths).
Wilderness, I can probably write a hub to address each of your points. It is biology that determines sex. It takes two opposite sex to procreate. If evolution is the science that you swear by, not me, gays would be extinct years ago. Right? Having that is not a reason to discriminate. There are other choices such as civil unions for gays. No need to change thousands years of history to accomodate 3 per cent of population.
But I didn't mention sex. Just gender, which in the context used here is purely, 100% a mental construct. Or at least that's how I understand the use of the term when discussing what a person "feels" or wants rather than what is. And no, evolution does not say gays would be extinct; there are far too many animals that practice homosexuality to think that even might be true.
How about religions offer "civil unions" and leave the marriages to those couples in love. No? Do you get a small indication of why it is irritating? It's not irritating when it is someone else being denied, but it turns that way quickly when it is yourself.
And absolutely there is a need to change thousands of years of history...when it is discrimination for no discernible value received. That's the point with these religious rules - they offer nothing in return. No good for the individual, no good for society, nothing for anything but the church and then nothing but a reinforcement of the church's ability to exert control over others.
Which is again is what is objectionable to those that don't believe. There is nothing whatsoever to be gained, yet the church insists that their rules be followed.
Jackclee, I don't seem to be getting across. I list rule after rule that religion applies to everyone, or would if they could, rules that do nothing for anyone, and your basic response is "Well, that's the way it was, that's the way it is and therefore that's the way it should remain". Plain and simple, that isn't good enough for the people that don't like having arbitrary controls applied to them for no more reason that some people believe a myth is true and want everyone else to be subjected to it as well.
I don't mean to denigrate belief - to each their own - but that you don't seem able to understand why others don't want to be subjected to it is part of the problem!
Do you think it is an accident that with the decline of religion in America, we have more single parent homes, more divorces, more people abusing drugs, high crime rates in inner cities, welfare on the rise, gangs, and police shootings, diseases on the rise... These things may seem unconnected but it comes down to personal behavior and choices... when a society remove God from the public square, morals decline and leads to poor outcomes. I can't make it simpler than that. You may think those rules in the Bible are archaic and obsolete and yet we prove again and again how those simple rules keep us civil and society is better off.
I may just write a whole hub countering every one of your points. It is too long to detail them here in a discussion forum. Give me some time and I will address them.
Our two different world views is what shapes our beliefs. Your secular view believes in man and how progress has taken us from caveman to the present.
My view is we started perfect and went down hill after the original sin and now we are still playing catch up. The wisdom in the Bible still ring true today after 2000 years. How many other items you can point to that does that?
An accident? No, I wouldn't call it an accident. But I would not (and neither should you) put the rise in divorce on the lack of religion - not when it is as much religious people doing it as secular. Same for drugs and welfare. Disease on the rise is a red herring as we are more disease free than at any time in our past...due to the secular field of science. Can't see police shootings as being connected in any possible way to religion, although I WILL grant that belief can and does result in a feeling of superiority and of "I can do what I want because God told me to".
So these things aren't cause by religion or lack thereof, and they aren't because society removed a specific God, or any god, from their governing structure. Indeed, morals generally improve with the removal of gods - we don't see gay bashing from atheists, we don't see murder of abortion doctors or gays, we don't see the likes of the KKK using religion as their basis for discrimination, we don't see children lacking medical care because "God will take care of them", etc. Religion does at least as much harm as it does good, and always has.
We're drifting (at high speed ) from the question of why non believers take offense at the controls directed by religion, but you started it and it's your forum, so I'll continue. The difference in belief is that we can look back over history and see the progress being made by man. We can see what happened in the dark ages when religious controls lost their grip. And we can see the "wisdom" in the bible...the "wisdom" that is 100% wrong. Or the wisdom that says kill your neighbor or wife for wearing rayon and nylon, for eating shellfish or sassing a parent. We see the morals of the god that murdered countless Egyptian infants because that same god "hardened Pharoah's heart" in order to make the planned murders excusable (didn't work, though, as they were not excusable under any sane moral code.
In truth, there is no "wisdom" in the Christian bible that wasn't known in cultures long preceding Christianity, and there was precious little wisdom or morality shown prior to Christ. Only violence and murder that we, as civilized people, would never accept under any circumstances.
Getting back to the topic then, the bottom line is that the senseless rules imposed by religion really are useless and often damaging (consider the effect of prohibition). Those that are useful and good get support from both sides of the fence, and are accepted by secular as well as religious people, but leaves large volumes of religion oriented rules forced onto non-believers, rules that benefit no one at all, not even the religious. They are nothing more than a desire to control, to force beliefs onto others, and have no business in our world. And they are disliked as a result.
So what is wrong with the 10 commandments?
Which one is obsolete?
Your anti-religion views are mis guided. Most religion have done much good in helping people in need.
I point to Catholic Charities as one example. They have helped more people than any government program and they do it for the right motives.
If you don't see the connection between moral decline and lack of religion, you only have to look at China.
I don't know if you are aware of this fact. I was just discussing this with my brother-in-law who lives and works in Beijing. He said the current divorce rate in Beijing is 70%. They have been godless since 1949 after the communist take over. Two generations now are raised under communism. He told me how the peope have a selfish attitude and recently they embraced some of the capitalistic ideas where money rules... however, without a moral compass, they are lost and lead to bad things such as cheating and fraud and all kinds of misdeeds in the market place.
Our country is unique because our founders knew all this philosophy and how religion play a big role in shaping our personal behavior which act as a guide for our economic system of free enterprise and wealth creation. They go hand in hand.
"So what is wrong with the 10 commandments? Which one is obsolete?"
How about "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me."? As there IS no god (ask any atheist), there is certainly something wrong with it and it is certainly obsolete.
Or "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments."
Or "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."
Or "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."
Same comment, with the addition that this time it very definitely affects anyone wishing to do business or work on Sunday (or Saturday, depending on which Christian sect is speaking). And this one is still used today to control actions of others, for no more reason than pretending that a god gave the order.
Or "You shall not commit adultery"
That is none of your business of anyone else. We are seeing more and more "open" marriages and it is the business ONLY of the two spouses, not the local religion.
Or "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."
I know of no one that has absolute control over their every thought, and do not believe that anyone does. We know better, making this commandment obsolete and worthless as it cannot be followed.
So over half the ten commandments are either obsolete or actually harmful to people. And the rest (no killing, no stealing, etc.) are found throughout the world, whether the culture is religious or not, or whether Christian or not.
Yes, religions have done good, by both charitable acts and moral guidance. But you are sadly misguided if you think they haven't ALSO done great harm, both by physical acts and forcing "bad" morals onto society. Consider the crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and Westboro Baptist as just a beginning. We can go from there to the dark ages, where religion was the single biggest force restraining science and learning, and resulting in millions of needless deaths from anything ranging from bubonic plague to poor quality crops to inability to heat a home. And worst of all - while nearly every culture observes the Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would they do unto you) in one wording or another, the Christian religion pays lip service to it while following a little different rule - "Do unto others as I think my god told me to".
But if you don't see the connection between moral decline and religion you have only to look at the middle east, where religion rules with an iron hand, just as it has whenever religion is given near absolute control. Not China, but Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and other religious countries. Or, if you don't like that because it isn't your religion and thus is classified similar to secular as having no morality or good, let's look at the rest of Africa, in a perpetual war over religion, and with both Christian and Muslim nations. Or South America - probably the biggest bastion of Christianity in the entire world, and in almost total chaos between drugs, poverty and excessive govt. control.
Finally, our country is unique because our forefathers recognized this - that religion cannot get along with anyone else, not even itself - and stopped it from controlling this country. They recognized that the European immigrants were running from religious control, not to it, and that the differing sects being set up could not possibly get along with each other unless no single religion was given control.
So no, Jacklee, the cliches about religion being the end all of morality and good times, about this being a "Christian" country, about religion having all the answers - all of them are patently false if one sets aside the pre-formed judgement and actually looks at real life results. Once we do that we figure out that it isn't good for society to discriminate based on sex, or color, or race, or sexual orientation, or most anything else. That all of these people are just people, not "evil sinners" that must be castigated and controlled for their own good. That is isn't good for religion to control what days we can work or play or who we can love or marry. That it does our children no good to be subjected to a daily prayer to a mythological creature in the sky, or taught that the laws of basic biology and physics were set aside by that creature 5,000 years ago to create the earth.
Keep your faith all you want, but keep it behind closed doors and quit forcing it on MY life, for I don't want it. Take the guidance from your own scripture in Matthew 7:12 or Luke 6:31 and leave the rest of us alone - quit forcing your beliefs onto everyone around you. We don't like it anymore than you would appreciate being forced to live your life as WE see fit.
Yes, you can point to catholic charities all you want as great examples of the good churches do. But when you do, don't forget to also point to the Catholic priests that are pedophiles and have ruined countless lives of innocent children while the church looks the other way. There is both bad and good - to pretend it is all cherry blossom with the church is not reasonable.
Yes but you are not representative of all religious people.
Some religious people believe women should be stoned to death for committing adultery, which is pretty judgemental. Others believe a same-sex couple should not be allowed to adopt children, which is pretty judgemental too. Some believe that almost 50% of the population cannot be religious leaders, on the grounds that they have vaginas instead of a penis. And on it goes . . .
For me, what you believe is your business. But as soon as you start trying to make laws that force everyone to live according to your beliefs, that's when people start pushing back, and calling these beliefs out as the nonsense that they are.
Everyone is judgmental. Those who deny it are liars.
Perhaps... that's why we are all sinners. Haha
Matthew 7 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
Yes, by humans. I believe we are also judged by God.
Then you do not follow the example of Christ? I assume you then don't call yourself a Christian.
No I am not a Christian. I don't follow any religion.
Thank goodness. I wouldn't think much of any religion which thought judging others was what God wanted.
You judge people every day. It's a natural human self-defense mechanism. It's an instinct.
You are miss using the word and confusing judgement with discriminating. Yes, we humans discriminate every day for our survival. We look at situation and choose what we like, what we don't like as with our friends and foods and clothing style...
that is discriminating in a good way, not discrimination based upon race or sex...
Judgement is different. It is making a determination if some action is "bad" and some consequences are due. A legal court and a judge, makes such determination in a court of law and if someone is judged guilty of a crime, he must pay some penalty.
So, we as Christians don't judge. We leave it to God who will judge all of us when we meet our maker and in the second coming, even if we are dead.
A better term to describe what most people of faith do is to shine light on wrong doings. We lead by example and shine light on those who does wrong. Unfortunately, non believers look at any actions and interpret them as judgement.
I hope it is clear for all the difference.
Words do have meaning and please use it correctly.
"A better term to describe what most people of faith do is to shine light on wrong doings. We lead by example and shine light on those who does wrong."
Umm... that would be judging.
When you turn a light on it exposes what wasn't seen in the dark.
Nothing complicated about that.
I didn't say it was complicated. I said it was judging.
It is exposing. Turning a light on or shining a light is not judging.
You are pointing out a wrongdoing. That is judging.
You are using metaphors. I am being clear. And clearly I am right.
Yes, it is judging. Lovetherain, is wrong in thinking this behavior is acceptable to Christ or God but she is right that you are all speaking of judging others.
All I am talking about is the act of turning a light on (shining a light). Illuminating is not judging. What is exposed after turning a light on may lead to judging the surroundings or circumstances.
"Let your light shine..." is not judging, its shining.
Apparently you are the only one here who thinks that.
But "shine light on wrong doings" is. First the "doings" must be judged as "wrong" and then it is intentionally exposed.
I think it is far better to just let our light shine in the spiritual sense. Sure, if I turned a light on and it exposed a pedophile abusing a child, I would be swift to judge.
The Pope purpose is to fu*k the purity out of little boys. The riches country in the world, The Vatican uses the money to fight and protect the Catholic leaders with lawyers. Also to hide them in other countries so the can continue to rape more children.
Then the purity of these catholic leader sh*t are made into bricks. Then recyled into Bibles.
Don't know to what degree this story is true , yet this story flows better than the Bible.
Oh gosh. Not in practice. In real life the act is simply judging others.
Discrimination (or Discernment) is not a sin. In fact, The Bible recommends it:
judgment, perception, perceptiveness, perspicacity, acumen, astuteness, shrewdness, judiciousness, insight; selectivity, (good) taste, fastidiousness, refinement, sensitivity, cultivation, culture.
the ability to judge well:
2 (in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding:
I think we are just approaching from different points of view. That's natural.
I'm sure that is it, to some extent. But, I will say that when you 'shine a light' you have determined that a light needed to be shone. That is a judgment.
As I've said. Christians are very quick to claim a relationship with God and that they are forgiven because of that relationship. They have 'special' circumstances. I say everyone has those special circumstances and instead of 'shining a light' on what we deem wrong we should search for the right. There is good and bad in everything. .Searching for the bad isn't what Christ did and it certainly isn't what God was doing when he sent Christ.
We live in world with lots of adults that do what comes naturally to them, its pretty much always been that way. Under some roofs the rules are completely different from what they are under my own roof. I like to live and let live as long as nobody is harming someone else.
Perhaps your motive is to judge by turning on a light.
Mine is to let my light shine. (Matthew 5:16)
I suppose 'shining a light' and attempting to reason with someone could be construed as the same thing.
I simply think many, many people do Christianity a disservice by putting themselves in a position where they are perceived as attempting to be judge and jury. I've never understood why, instead of facing and discussing it head on, so many attempt to sidestep and wriggle out of the conversation by making up things like 'shining a light' as if that somehow explains their actions toward others and puts it into a favorable light.
When you let your light shine, you don't need to reason with anyone. People are either drawn to the light or they are not. Any amount of reasoning with anyone who prefers darkness would be like spitting in the wind, unless God draws them. ... Its only for His glory.
I suppose, if you define it as a light; that would make sense. From what you are saying it appears to me that you are judging any unworthy who don't bow to your opinion.
I don't see the light of God in your stance. Sorry.
I would never judge anyone unworthy who doesn't have the same opinion as me. I am unworthy.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
God really does think its all about Him. Its all for His glory.
What is complicated is God lives in the dark. For churches are like mushrooms and feed on sh*t, telling the greatest BS stories ever told.
Glad to live by simplifie, simplifie and simplifie.
You do realize it is not for you to determine right or wrong. Many things Christians today determine wrong were not reason for Jesus to lord himself over others in a judgmental fashion.
We all sin. The Christian considers their belief extenuating circumstances which gains forgiveness from God. All have extenuating circumstances. Judge not, least you be judged.
Sorry, you can sugar coat anything you want but those behavior patterns by others are defined judgmental so they would be defined judgmental when viewing a Christian who acted on the philosophy you have outlined.
It is one thing to make adjustments for your own error and mistakes in your own life.
It is another to judge a whole being like Christain America has by killing a million Iraqi children over in Muslim countries. Or banning Muslims countries who have not killed any Americans on their own soil. Bad bad judgment calls and no forgiveness as they continue to get worst in order to rape and pilliage plus pollute the world for the greedy wealthy and control others. The greedy and religion work hand and hand regardless of what Jesus was an example of, being an intelligent and spiritual person.
When the purpose of christains is to over populate the earth. Then the Pope fucks little boys and then the church protects him. Or they kill others greater in the name of God with than any other reasons. When punishments are worst than the crimes here on earth and in hell. Who in the world need these kind of judgmental calls.
I can forgive them, but can they forgive themselves. Can Christian learn by adjustment of their mistakes rather then count their sins. Christian group as whole are world champions of producing sins.
Small adjustments about others and big judgment for your own life is healthy. When Religion judges you and your family and the Universe. Who needs to be a slave by outrageous commands in an already over ego group world. I will take more kindness or love from anyone of any kind, every time.
Your thinking is all over the place. I take offense to your references to Christians and to the Pope.
The Iraq war has nothing to do with Christians.
The travel ban is not a ban against all muslims.
Why do you insist on propagating false information.
You have a problem with Christians and I get it.
I am totally fine with it. To each his own...
But keep the discussion civil...please.
Here is a link to Canada's involvement with the Iraq war -
You can't convince him. He thinks Christians are responsible for all that's evil in the world.
Wow. That has nothing to do with me or what I said.
I am given you a new way of thinking by adjustments of mistakes and errors rather by sins and judgements by God.
You said everybody should be judged by your God. The last Christain died on the cross and ever since this amatuer sharman said many vague things. Greedy kings and wizard of Oz like leaders have been hypnotizing people for their greed and crowed control by fear and punishment. Creating more harm than good and keeping our species from advancing.
God's judgemen tis between the person and God.
Since I have no fear or jealousy and make no claims to know God. Except in tbe good sense metiphor that each person is God with good intension. Evil is the absence of reason and love conquer all.
Who Need one God with all it"s proven worldly and historical conflicts?
I commend you for that attitude. Unfortunately not every religious person takes that attitude. What that means is that we only hear from the loudest and most judgmental representatives of religion, and not the tolerant, reasonable people. Therefore we tend to forget that the tolerant ones exist.
For instance, I have no idea of the religious beliefs of most of my friends and acquaintances - nor do they know mine.
The only time I've discovered a friend's religious beliefs is when they've tried to shove those beliefs down my throat, or have reacted in a bigoted intolerant way to myself or someone in my circle. That means my only encounters with religious people are very negative. The same goes with religious people in the news or on TV. It's unfortunate.
Religion and politic go hand and hand in controling the people.
Then Hierarchy and greed has no bound for a new world order otherwise. If not for a few with grounded good sense..
The greatest judgemental people in the world must be Religious people.
1. If you don't believe you can not be saved, then go to Heaven.
2. If you don't believe, your tortured in hell for forever.
3. The second coming takes Christians and non fornicators to heaven. For the rest of us, we are screwed in hell.
4. About 90% of World wars in human history are predominatally Religious countries.
5. A Jealous God, must be the most judgmental thing in the Universe.
So why do 50% of atheists support a religious fundamentalist as president? Isn't that hypocrisy?
US atheist is a Religion too, where is the faith in that too.
A vetern artist like me, has no labels.
Some think we have a screw loose... Prove it.
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love and seek the best for one another; for he who [unselfishly] loves his neighbor has fulfilled the [essence of the] law [relating to one’s fellowman]. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet,” and any other commandment are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor [it never hurts anyone]. Therefore [unselfish] love is the fulfillment of the Law. ~ Amplified
The Ten Commandments are a measuring stick that shows us we need a Savior. Whatever is of lover is of God, for God is love.
LOL. They get the impression from the religious people they notice the most, the ones being super super judgemental. Just like religious people get the idea unreligious people are arrogant and out to get them, because some proportion of that group are.
Not need for complicated theories, people are responding to what they are actually experiencing.
Good point - the squeaky wheel gets the attention and the loudest, most obnoxious of religious or unreligious people get the same.
Though, I am not sure some people understand the difference between judgemental and just pointing out inappropriate behavior. If someone mis treat their kids, and I say something... am I being judgemental or just letting him know he is doing it wrong?
If you let him know he is wrong, have you not judged him? And found that, in your opinion, he is doing something wrong?
Understand, "wrong" (in the ethical sense, not something like mathematically incorrect) is not an absolute, but only a relative. It depends, always, on an opinion, an opinion of the judge making the call between right and wrong.
I disagree. Not everything is relative. If for example, you son is doing math and said 2+2=5. you tell him the answer is 4. Are you judging him or correcting him for his own benefit?
I said I was discussing "wrong" in the ethical sense, not in the mathematical one. There is nothing ethically wrong with getting the incorrect ("wrong") answer to an arithmetic problem. Or in thinking your car won't start because the battery is dead when it is actually out of gas. Or in remembering that your old house was painted blue when it was actually red.
None of these concern ethics or morality at all - just fact, and they can therefore often be absolute. But ethics cannot, for it is always determined by opinion - no fact need apply.
I used that as an example. There are many ethical matters that are absolute. Lying is wrong no matter how you may interpret it or spin it. That is the difference between people of faith and secular athists or humanist. To those, everything is relative.
The only thing that comes even close to a universal moral is the golden rule. Murder, cannibalism, adultery, dress modes of every possible style including nudity, child abuse, human sacrifice, animal cruelty...all have been "moral" by one civilization and time or another and often not only accepted but demanded by the local gods.
No, simply claiming that your faith and belief makes morals, specifically your morals, an absolute doesn't cut it. It is this very attitude that causes the problems you mention in the OP, where non-believers take offense at believers forcing their belief (morals) onto others.
There is no force. The 10 commmandment is God's rule for humans. We are given free choice. We can choose to follow or disobey. The consequences is what we live with.
If there are no absolutes, then you have chaos. Survival of the fittest... evolution leads to the conclusion that man can become gods in due time...as we evolve and become more perfect.
In reality, we see the opposite. Man has gotten more corrupted with each generation without faith.
The future is not bright for secular society. Look at Euope today and this would be our future if we follow in the same path.
You make me chuckle, Jacklee, with the absolute insistence that your god, and ONLY your god, can give mankind morals or define right and wrong. I know you mean no harm and no offense, but that attitude and assumption is exactly what your OP asks about...and you don't even realize it. So blinded by belief that you cannot see how offensive that is, particularly when it ends up on the law books.
No, the ten commandments are what man made up to control the plebes. There is absolutely no evidence of a god involved, and it won't matter if you say there is a million times there will still be no evidence. So they are made by man to the best of our knowledge.
Yes, we have chaos, exactly what we see and have seen for millenia. No two cultures agree and even the folks within a specific religious culture (including Christianity) disagree with each other. There is apparently no god giving moral structure to man, only man.
No, we most certainly do NOT see the opposite, with man getting more corrupt. Consider early Jewish peoples keeping slaves, killing neighboring clans and bashing children's brains out. We don't do those things any more, and we don't stone people for truly minor offenses like wearing two different cloths. Such actions are not moral and we have prohibited them...without guidance from a god.
Consider treatment of women and children just 100 years ago. Little more than chattel, they were subject to every whim of a male. We don't do that any more. Think of our own slavery - ended long ago. Beating of children to enforce discipline - gone. Discrimination against gays - gone, save for a few uncivilized folk still thinking their god prohibits it and wants them to kill all gays. All of these moral actions man accomplished himself, without a god's guidance.
It is, and always has been, primarily religion that holds back civilization in it's continual claim that god makes all the rules. Man's rules are SO much superior and as a general rule (though far from universal) the tighter hold religion has on a society the less civilized and moral it will be.
Absolutely bizarre. Two slavish followers of the Rev Donald arguing about who is the worst hypocrite. Laughable.
However as Jack at least claims to be a Christian the prize has to go to the atheist Donaldite for sheer irrational hypocrisy.
I would add that I think (think!) I understand completely where you are coming from. You are of the opinion that your religion has the answers as to how to behave, and that those answers should be taught to, and required of, everyone else.
Anything not at least declared to come from your god is suspect and not to be accepted, particularly if it conflicts with the morality of ancient barbarians. Secular philosophy, the beliefs of other religions - none are acceptable...except what is claimed to come from what you claim to be the One True God.
While I can accept the belief, I cannot accept the requirements forced onto others and I truly have a hard time understanding just why the attitude and belief of superiority comes through so strongly, especially as it is demonstrably not so.
Where is the force you speak of? Some religion do use force to convert believers but Christianity is not one of them. If anything, the belief in free will is the reason you can choose to be an atheist. My hub is to explain why religion is necessary and the lack of faith is what lead our country down the hill similar to Europe and China...
Really? No force? Didn't seem that way to the moonshiners during prohibition, a law passed by the Christian majority because they didn't like alcohol and refused to allow anyone else to drink it either.
To this day, selling alcohol on Sunday in some locations WILL result in force being used against you.
The gay man that "comes out" to his landlord could find force used against him, as in cops forcibly removing him from his home - a law to prohibit housing discrimination against gays in my state failed.
Abortion doctors have certainly had force used against them, as in a bullet.
In a few areas, opening the store you own on Sunday will result in legal force being used against you.
Almost anywhere in the country, walking undressed down the sidewalk will result in force being used.
The KKK commonly used force, and in the name of God.
Try selling sex anywhere but Nevada and force will be used to stop you.
I suspect a witch coven in the deep south will find force being used if they are caught worshiping.
All of these are laws and actions directly from the Christian majority in this country, and are Christian values being forced onto non-believers.
Your hub attempts to explain why religion is necessary, but fails completely. Not only do you ignore the harm religion (whether Christianity or other) has done historically, but you also make the unwarranted (and false) claim that "good" morals only happen when religion is in control; a patently false assumption as most common morality happens with or without religious control. The best of the ten commandments are not unique to Christianity, or to any other religion or religion in general. And finally, there is little wrong with Europe, OR with the people of China. That they refuse Christian "values" that exert control for no reason but that God says to is to their credit, not something to hold against them.
It is funny how you describe "force" and don't see the obvious. The force I see comes from our courts, who decided it is unlawful to pray in silent in a public place such as a graduation. It is the law that we must pay our tax dollars to support abortion or the day after pills. It is force for schools to not celebrate Christmas holiday or perform shows of a religious theme. It is force that we have to allow gender neutral bathrooms. It is force that crosses be removed from public cemeteries and 10 commandments removed from court houses. Who is doing the force? The ACLU through our courts.
Morals set forth by religions help us stay in touch with our own God-like natures. Morals are guides to human will. Humans can easily go astray without these helpful guide posts. No one says we have to follow them. They are there for our own good.
Hands down from traveling worldwide. Christains are the most judgmental people I have ever met in life.
GW Bush said Atheist are not citizens. Also he said God told him to invade Iraq and Americans believed him.
If you don't put your hand on the bible in a courtroom you will be judged anyways for not believing in the bible.
I no longer can have a lovers relationship with a christian woman because I can not be saved. Because we do not live on tbe same same page.
Very few christians actually believe only God judges them and other before the vast majority christians judge everybody first.
What I find priceless is a question is asked about religious people being judgmental and we are all privileged to read post after post of judgments passed against the religious.
That's how I read the OP - why do religious people make judgements? And the answer, of course, will be nothing but judgements - the "why" being asked for.
I am not against anyone.
Yahweh is very jealous, condescenting and against even family members if they don't worship him. If you don' t agree with Yahweh you can go to hell.Can you imagine anyone or thing more judgmental. I wish your God (diguise as Christians) would stay out of wars and our bedrooms.
My goodness. Judging others and now condemning an unseen God you don't even know. How high handed.
I am no better or worst than you or anyone. When it comes to your God, your God is better than my God, so you must be, better than me.
We are all God, or there is going to be a judgment and conflict.
It seems to me to be logical that there would only be one God so we would all have the same one. We simply perceive it in different ways.
As to judgment and conflict, I don't think God the author of that.
You are saying, for most of the people on this planet that disgree that Yahweh is the one and only God. Then it is Yahweh or the Highway. Again, I can not imagine anyone or thing more conflicting and judgmental than Yahweh.
When the voice of God booms down among all of us to agree with your assessment of God's desire I'll be forced to agree. Until then we remain at an impasse.
Edit. I will point out that you attempting to speak for God is as ludicrous as the religious attempting to do the same.
I can only speak for myself as a God. The kingdom within. The centre of my Universe as I communcate and share with others, who are king of their domain.
As far as a million different Gods fighting over who has the right and only God. I allow them to kill each other in the name of their God. There has been more people killed in the name of their right God than for any other reason in the world. I can"t imagine killing anyone or running out of ideas to kill anyone or be dishonest to anyone. It is your delustion of your imaginary friend.
Yahweh who kills more people in the name of God/Yahweh than any other reason. The absence of reason is evil and killing is a mental illness. Trump will be counting on it too.
Wow. Such delusions. I'm not certain it is my responsibility or place to attempt to dispel them. Since I'm not in a position to understand how they evolved I might do more harm than good in an attempt.
Large Religion dose more harm than good because it taken from the bronze age.
You seem to be rather bronze age yourself.
Everything in moderation in my world.
Organized Superstition and supernatial heros will not serve humanity that well.
Nor will hate filled banter. Whatever will you do?
I am hateless and fearless, why would I allow God give me this gift of hate and fear. Why would I need to love my enemies. Because I don't have any and I don't want some enemies.
So if your child play with a match, and you tell him it is dangerous, are you judging him or showing him the way? It is the same with Christians. Judgement implies a penalty, since we cannot penalize people, only a court or God can do those things.
Time and time again. I see Christians stumbling in the dark, looking for the light.
Absolutely, it happens. No one is immune.
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