Through my 37 years of life I have seen that trying to witness to non believers has become a very difficult job I am wondering what skills my fellow hubbers have during the time of giving witnes to glory of Jesus Christ!!
Not going too well so far. On the whole, the non believers tend to be sick and tired of listening to it. Mostly they think it is funny, hypocritical and annoying. Hope that helps. Good luck with your witnessing.
Well, I agree they would think it is hypocritical if you lead your life opposite of what you say. I will say over and over again the greatest witnessing tool is just leading your life the way God tells you and then everything else will follow...that was (more than you think) Jesus' ministry, leading his life and then people asked questions...he didn't shame them by pointing out their sins or try to bribe them with heaven and threaten them with hell...he truly loved them and cared for them
As a Christian, I feel the need to interject here. The problem with this whole perception on witnessing is that it fails to portray Christ as He is seen in the Scriptures. This applies to believers and non-believers alike.
Non-believers misunderstand Jesus to be a peace-loving teacher who, like Confucius, upheld a moral standard of living simply because it was a good idea. They disagree with the biblical claim that Jesus is the Son of God, and that His mission on earth was to be the Savior of mankind. In doing this, non-believers misunderstand how seriously Jesus took sin. They neglect passages such as Christ's dealing with the Samaritan woman (John 4) and His overturning of the tables (John 2). If Jesus didn't take sin seriously, He certainly would not have died for the sins of those He loved (Eph 5:2). He would have just walked away.
Because of these misconceptions, non-believers respond negatively to witnessing. They think that Christians aren't following their Lord who really doesn't mind that people are sinning. Since Jesus is there to forgive and not condemn, non-believers react adversely to the biblical message of separation from God through sin. They can't be open to the biblical Jesus because they're so focused on their own version of Jesus.
As for believers, they often make the same mistakes. Reacting adversely to failed evangelical attempts, they soften their message, saying that sin really isn't that big of a deal. These Christians preach a false gospel, one that Paul often warns of in his letters (2 Tim 3). This is where we have failed my Christian brothers and sisters. We have dropped the ball, forgetting that Jesus came out of love - a love that would not allow people to continue unrepentant in their sins. Too often our evangelism is about winning an argument or showing non-believers that they are wrong instead of pointing to the mercy and grace of our Lord by which we ourselves have been saved (Eph. 2:8-10). Perhaps the best form of witnessing is to present the truth in love and to lead by example as said in previous comments. Yet none of this is worth anything if we do not understand who Jesus is: the Son of God come to take away the sins of the world. He stands ready to forgive those who will repent of their sins and believe in Him.
Nah - I will stick with funny, hypocritical, and annoying. In that order. I don't care what your imaginary friend is supposed to have said. Nor am I interested in repenting your imaginary sins. Sorry.
You do know jesus was stolen from pagan religions - right?
No,they don't misunderstand,they simply do not believe. This condescending tripe that so many Christians try to sell is insulting to your target audience. Try MLM or some other non-offensive technique. Your current scheme is backfiring.
Ahhhh Mark...good reply. I'm afraid of people who have lost the ability to have an open mind and live with tunnel vision. All fine and good but don't try to convince me.
I can't even begin to imagine how it must make non believers feel. I can't even begin to imagine how it makes any body, besides a Christian feel. I mean, as a Christian I have more tolerance. But when a Christian is forced to the point of anger, something is wrong. And they wonder why nobody goes to church anymore.
Must admit, it is something that is alien to us over here - in Greece, it is seen as very impolite to inquire about someone's religion, let alone try to 'convert' them.
Must be a cultural difference
Uh, no, Sufi... I mean, you are partially correct. But the mainline Christians (or people of any other religions I know of) do not make it a habit of evangelizing in public spaces. It would be considered bad taste.
That being said, America(as the country attracted so many groups seeking religious freedoms--isn't that ironic) does have a cultural extremist contingency.
Only someone ignorant will try and convert someone and only someone who is ignorant will convert.
Witnessing? You mean preaching! Jesus told his followers to tell of his words and miracles................nothing more! He also said that the law is in the minds and hearts of men--all men and he was not the one to descriminate and separate non believers and believers. The truth lies in the hearts and again he didn't descriminate. Which version of the Bible do you use? Do you know there were thng in the first version and then changed in the 6th, 8th and 15th centuries that you most likely do not know about? Are they miracles or wehre they just seen that way back in those days? Most of the miracles in that Bible are not that way today. Check out other books and views other than the Bible--and YES you can do that! Check history and other things of that sort before making assumptions of non believers and believers.
Good Luck on that!
The "job" is no more difficult than before. The opposition to it has increased. You can see that just by reading some of the comments below (your OP).Thre are many who adamently declare they hate having it "forced" upon them. In saying that, they in turn "force" their resistance on the believer.
They want politeness etc, but don't dieplay much of it.
"Witnessing" is nothing more than sharing ones experiencesand beliefs. (I think that's called "freedom of speech", ye? If that is forcing, then we may as well stop talking. If I tell you I loved a particular movie, and another hated it, is that grounds for "division"? No, but of course that is a much less emotive subject, Huh?
Yes - it is a lot more difficult than before. No more burning at the stake and everyone has a little education now - which must make the "job" a tad more difficult - sorry aka-dj. Oh well. Not that you are disrespecting anyone or anything........
No it's not. It is actually easier than ever. The acceptance of it may have diminished because of "education", but that's not my problem.It's the hearers. I'm happy to tell you I believe in Jesus, and why, and since when etc. SEE EASY!
You may (and i guess you do) resist that, but it does not make it hard for me.
Disrespectful? Me? I doubt it. Please adjust your glasses as you read.
Here's a tip: live an exemplary life, though at the same time: be yourself.
If anyone comes up to you and says "hey, you're different. There's something about you. I want what you have." then by all means share. This is permission based marketing.
On the other hand you go out of your way to 'witness', ie: annoy people with an offer they didn't ask for, then this can be considered 'spamming'.
Not sure how this "principle" works on HP though. Not many people ask. We have to start the conversation somehow. Maybe we ARE all spammers in that respect.
That's my mother's version. Works a treat.
You could try setting up a multi-level marketing system (like Amway). Don't try to save every heathen yourself; try to recruit other witnesses to do the job and you get credit for 1/2 of each soul saved!!
I think the best witness is living your life well, being honest, being grateful for your joys, treating people as you would wish to be treated without mentioning Jesus at all.. unless someone asks you.
Otherwise I would go with MLM or maybe even FSM.
Non- believers just don't believe and they get ticked off when you tell them they should. Gve them an example they can question.
Luke 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
Luke 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
Luke 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
Luke 8:4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
Luke 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
Luke 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Luke 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Luke 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Sadly, in the last days we will see more rocky soil in this world, there will be scoffers and those who mock Christians and our beliefs. Those who know the truth, but think they know best, or those know the truth, but would much rather continue to rebel against thier creator and think they just God forgive on their deathbed. But we can't stop, because there are many of people who need God, but are simply afraid, lost or just confused. "The harvest is plenty but the workers are few" I hope this helps you. God Bless
And the fine example is right here!!!
I do know about the Bible and I take it to myself and have read it back and forwards. I interpret it in my own words and can think for myself. You can't seem to do that. Ever asked yourself why?
There have been many traslations to that Book and with each one the words are further from the true orginal documents or scrpts.......go search for the original and find out who God is and Where he came ffrom. Find out all you can about the people that were in the Biblical days and pre-biblical. History is not all in tht ONE book which is not the truest version, I can assure you that!
Please stop using the Bible as something it was never meant to be.
So - just as a matter of interest - seeing as many people have told you that what you are doing is offensive and a better way would be to behave in a fashion that attracted people - do you still feel the need to carry on trying to convert people?
In your own words please. I don't appreciate great swathes of doubtful scripture being pasted.
This is so true we cannot be harsh and overpowering in our witness! I belieave that we should be the ones to first plant the seed then God will nurish it! Bible Thumping only makes others angry (and can also cause a deturent from converting)!!!
Only non-belivers and the unrepentant sinner find the word of God offensive, it's like death to them, because it directly contradicts them and threatens their way of life.
Well, I guess that answers my question. Thank you for reminding me why I will never subscribe to your religion.
LG, Mark, and Misha are just rocky soil, you guys have made your choice in life, why do you have to deny that choice to everyone else, whenever anyone says anything good about God or Jesus Christ there you guys are with insults, riducule, and mockery. Is it that you fear we might be right so you have block our truth from everyone else, so you feel more comfortable with your own choices? No true Christian will force anything on anyone we simply give our POV and allow people to make their own choices, but you can't seem to do that. You use the word religion to distort what God and Jesus Christ is really all about. That is wrong and you already know why.
PS you want to talk about blind, how about seeing a painting and deny there ever was an artist.
Yep the first is that we are angry then try to reconvert us and then the name calling. Lady Jeus NEVER said to call people names and he didn't say shove his words down other's throats. I am simply getting you to research what you speak. Now if that is wrong then it is your choice---just as it is ours who have done the research.
I don't appreciate this treatment at all.
D UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU.
Karma--it is in that Bible--look real hard---WHAT YE SHALL SOW, YE SHALL REAP.
Thre is a whole lot more good stuff in that Bible then calling people sinners. Oh another verse comes to mind---GET THE LOG OUR OF YOU OWN EYE BEFORE YOU TAKE IT OUT OF SOMEONE ELSES. Oh I can go on and on and on.................I belive in Jesus --or havent you gotten that far in your reading to know me better. I beleive the one that is nice and was a Nazarene who never said anyting mean to another and no one was better than anyone else., View my hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/Peters-Foundati … -Obsession
Count me out please. It's Mark's and LG's battle, I am just watching it from the side, time to time giving short remarks
With new religions that have cropped up lately that are directly opposed to God like New Age, Wicca, satan worship and just last night I was watching a show on chaos magik (scary crap) it's no wonder it has become a more difficult job.
I don't agree with a lot of what the Jehovah Witness believe but I have to give them credit for their attempt. A few years ago I had a JW come to my place once a week to study the Bible, we became good friends. If you are a JW mdawson17 I'd watch yourself in some neighborhoods. Although I think they travel in pairs.
As far as talking about God in these forums nobody is going to stop us. We are not knocking on anyone's door in here. Non-believers can choose to read our posts or not. Some non-believers might not like it but others might get interested. We can talk about God, the scriptures or prayers all we want. That's what this forum is for. I look forward to your input mdawson17.
You have just begun. Regardless of the outcome you are speaking the word.
Absolutely - keep on shoving it down other people's throats - really - it doesn't matter that they do not want to hear it. Go for it. Push harder. This is the word after all.
I remember years back I was hanging out with a friend in his shop when some Christian preachers came along and gave us some books.
They were waiting for the return of Christ who would save their souls to which I replied why wait for him ? , why should the poor guy take your sins again? You keep committing sins and he should pay for them, why?
Why don't you meditate instead of waiting for him to do all your work.
They got angry and took the books back from me
LOL LOLO LOL LOL LOL
They want to do all their sins and wait for someone to save them from their own sins! Is there a severe lack of self-responsibility with this concept!!!
Well Jesus certainly didn't die for our perfections now did he?
Maybe the point of being Christian is realizing that we are not perfect, we cannot are not do not but try to do the right thing.
I think it is really funny that Christians are far more detested than any other religion and the irony is that it is because we are a bunch of "sinner".
Anyone who is actually righteous does have the right to hate a christian for our "sin" yet an actual righteous person wouldn't do such a thing because that person would obviously understand the nature of a "christian" and understand the relevance of who Christ is to a Christian.
So what offense could a person take to being hated for being a christian knowing that we are "sinners" and the irony that Jesus to some seems like the Devil because Jesus loves us "f" up's (lol I mean that in the best possible way) for wanting to be like him because.
So it is really no surprise to me that when Jesus said, pick up your cross and follow me but know you will be hated... it makes me laugh not because it is actually funny that people can hate someone for a belief, but because he didn't come to save what is already perfect.
Sandra, he already came back and no one recognized him. He also said that The Kingdom of God is within you and not outside of you. You can only save yourself and no one else. When God made us we were like him in every way. The sin that we did, we did not do on our own. He did trick us you know and how is that better than anyone that we are----none!
The prophets are here to help and guide but man needs to do his bit.One needs to meditate for himself and find the light Jesus and all saints talk about.
I don't like to make comments in these threads normally, but the phrase, "Don't nail shoes on the natives" comes to mind.
I think we should respect each other's beliefs. I do not believe though, that one person should try to force their beliefs on others. I'm sure that other people would not appreciate me doing it to them and I expect the same courtesy. If someone asks you, that's okay but otherwise, please don't nail shoes on the natives.
I agree with you so very much!! I am a devout Christian and strong in my belief but I feel that if we "Bible Thump" then we will run others away from God!
I've never heard this quote before but I really like it! Mind if I put it into heavy circulation? I'll say Shirley told me this one!
By the way, I was responding to the OP's original ponderance about witnessing, not what Mark or Lady G said.
If I ask a religious question here, could the ladies and gentlemen answer it? I'd like to know what the Scripture says about this:
Why do we want to live in a perfect world?
Because its what the fools lead us to believe my Mango, tis an illusion as you well know, doncha think ?
The scripture states that man was created into a "prefect world". (Note the garden of Eden). However, sin has caused man's(and consequently our)expulsion from it. That (original) world was destroyed, (by the flood), and we have what we now have.
For this reason, it is inbuilt into our makeup, to seek after the "perfect" world(utopia etc.) That world (of perfection) does exist, and is called "Heaven". day, that Heaven, and mankind will be re-established.Much more could be said, but I hope I answered your Q. :
I have always belieave when it is said that we a of an imperfect creation! So as the world is trying to make themselves to be perfect they seem to be blinded that the world is of a sinful nature and no matter how we try we are going to mess up!
We are tring to live in a perfect world because no one wants to admit their mistakes fearing that it would make them be less than!
No, they seem to want to blame it all on God or Satan. Nice cop out don't ya think?!
The easiest way to go is to give up.
What you've just said is the equivalent of saying 'I admit my sins, I admit I can't do anything about them, I'm not even trying, but now if you excuse me I'm out killing people, 'CAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!'
The scriptures say nothing about us living in a perfect world and actually spend a lot of time explaining and describing how unperfect it is.
Yea what Cindy said.
Walk the talk ,no matter who your God is I think.
Happy Birthday Happy Birthday Happy Birthday To you !!!!
That is the problem dj---all those who do believe have to separate themselves from each other and those who don't simply don't.
Non- believers just don't believe and they get ticked off when you tell them they should. Give them a good example they can question.
Many non believers get well ticked off when it is sanctimoniously stated that we don't understand the argument. many have seen the same information and have arrived at different conclusions
Many once believers that are now non believers get ticked when they write their own experiences and what new knowledge they have on belivers hubs and get told they don't want anything but what is written in the Bible and that they are made to feel that they are worthless. I don't think non believers go and do those things to others. The thing is that they refuse to understand--they treated Jesus in the same way as they are treating unbelievers! Go figure!!
That's not true. That is perspective. Coming from the side of believing but being annoyed with people coming to my door asking if I know God or what I do etc... yeah that bugged me but I get where they are coming from and know that they aren't doing it to piss you off... well most anyways.
I have heard stories of Mormons telling my bf he was going to hell because he didn't have time to talk to them while he was working.
I have had to ask a JW that I adore to leave because I personally didn't want to upset her with my personal views not because she made me feel bad about what I believe.
On the hp forum religion section, no one actually "pushes" it on anyone because you come on your own accord. You don't have to but you do anyways as though you were forced.
I wasn't referrring to the forums at all and I wasn't referring to JW's either although a couple did come to our door on Saturday. They kept asking us did we know who God was and if he was mentioned in the Bible? I found it a bit condecending when I told them yes I know about God and he is in the Bible and they persued to open their Bibles and give us a lesson and my husband told them we weren't interested. He is Roman Catholic! I think it was like 3 times before they got the message....those and what I get in my comment boxes on my hubs are what I am referring too.
Amongst other things about witnesses. Though I had said they did annoy me etc... I am actually grateful that they kept coming around every now and again.
Really I didn't know what I was missing until the right one came along. It may be part of their servant duties to go door to door and talk to you about God and Jesus knowing that they will get the door slammed in their face more often than not but I am certainly grateful that I did get an unexpected intervention.
And even though I still get annoyed when I am in the middle of something and they come knocking... it is worth it to help even just one person. It might not be any of you here per say but there are people out there who are too afraid to go out and get help so help comes to the door.
I for one, I think it is great.
I'm with you there, Sandra. It takes a lot of guts to do witnessing. You never know what God-hating psychos you might be meeting behind the doors...
Another good reason to "witness" via the web. Leave the poor psychos alone, your life may depend on it.
Although I understand one can meet anyone behind the door. And it can also be the other way round too when it could be anyone at the door who is visiting(I have had those uninvited visitors too).
And also terming people who don't believe in "God" in the first place as "psychos" is also a very strong term of reference and should be reserved for the few. In fact in my brief experience on this planet I have read more about God "loving" people who think they are doing the religion or God a favor by fighting "His" battle or blowing themselves up to be the bigger threat to humanity.
This thought process intrigues me.
I know there was other bits in between, but I'm still wrapping my head around this before I start thinking about many people being disadvantaged or annoyed for the sake of (a potential) one.
Well, you are missing the point darkside. Basically - it doesn't matter how many people are annoyed, put off or disadvantaged as long as you are out there gathering converts.
There is no need to respect other people's wishes or beliefs (non beliefs in my case) - it is far more important for them to be spreading the word. Fortunately, it is no longer spread with a sword or a gun, but you can see how some of them wish for the good old days.
The "disadvantage" or annoyance is just that. You don't have to answer the door, you don't have to slam the door in their face, you don't have to invite them in. If you don't need anything, then the only inconvenience there really was is that you heard someone knocking at the door and had to go check and see who it is.
I think the real disadvantage is with regards to those people who really need help but don't know how to go about it. You know, just because a JW or someone comes to your door doesn't mean that they are only going to help you find God.
If you need financial help, or need to see a doctor or just need something they will help you. Yes, they would want you to know that it was by the love of God that they offer those things and that is not a forceful intervention.
I never had a JW or Mormon or anyone come to my door telling me I need to convert, they just want you listen. You don't have to agree, you don't even have to answer the door but you certainly don't have to be mean because you never know.
The neighbor you have next door might be in some trouble looking for help but if witnessing is banned and criminalized or something, then what is lost in another life that could have been saved.
How ironic it is that being saved by God doesn't necessarily mean that they saved their soul but in the very physical world because people are inspired by God, they have the potential to save a life.
Here is my balancing scale. Life vs. having to get up and answer the door. LOL.
Now there are non believers out there that are full of love and always willing to help and maybe one day those people will go door to door just asking people if they need help. However something tells me that they would get the door slammed in their faces because it is just intrusive of a person to knock at your door. Of course they would blame it on religion for not having the opportunity to help someone who could have needed help but after a while I think that even they would understand and know that it was never about the religion.
It's about offering help to whoever is in need. If you don't need help, then you don't. You just say, "no thanks" and they go on their way and you go back inside bitching about how someone just came to the door offering love and help.
When Isaac was a newborn baby, one of these nutty American groups (not sure which one) rang the doorbell at 7am on a Saturday, just after he (and I) had gone to sleep after he'd been awake for a while.
That is just about the worst way I can think to persuade anyone of anything.....
Seven a,m. did you ring the police and report them. I think I would have done.....
Yeah and they totally did it on purpose because they just knew that that you and Isaac had just fallen asleep so they wanted to disrupt you just to upset you.
Umm, how often do you knock to stranger's door at 7 am? Come on Sandy, you know it is rude, and they know it is rude.
Maybe I'm just a lazy so-and-so, but I don't think I'm ever pleased to see anyone at 7am on a Sat. morning!
Yes it can be one of the best things to happen for a person that is lost as well as hurting! I belieave that witnessing should be done with love and compassion and not in a harse and demanding deminor! Christ is Love so we should be in the image of Christ we are ambasdor's of Christ so therefore we should show Love as he would!
No more hunger ,lying ,cheating ,stealing ,murder,wars ,death,disease.
Hey gimme a programme with Hope anytime
I don't know what happened to the link: http://hubpages.com/hub/Peters-Foundati … -Obsession
Whatever you call it One can't fight all the battles around, so I have to prioritize
Well it seems to me that many have the wrong idea abotu what being a witness is. Witnessing is not preaching, it is not teaching, it is not quoting scripture. A witness is someone who saw what happened. It is someone who experieced firsthand the miracle of the Love of God. To tell what God is for you is witnessing, but to show it is even more so.
Non-believers, who's to tell who's and right who's wrong. People have free will to believe whatever.
I don't have any reason to suspect Amanda is lying, and this is not the first account of their early visits I seen
And so they can put a sign on the door that says "God not welcome" or "no soliciting" or "Don't knock before 7am", no problem!
What do you mean? You don't think a sign that says that a person doesn't want anyone to come to their door about God is a good idea? LOL
It would save all the trouble of having to get up and answer the door for someone that they really don't care to hear about right?
LOL LOL LOL I have answered doors about that time in the day and haven dirty looks to them! I don't have a child like London Girl, but I do get insomnia alot and have just fallen back to sleep that early---so dirty looks they get. If I had my druthers I would have dne other things to them or said something nasty but being tired I just want them to go away! Oh and those Telemarketers that call that early ususally get an earfull they never imagined!!!
No-one else has ever rung our doorbell at 7am without a good reason!
I can't say it doesn't happen but I have never had it happen to me, they can't even start mass before 10:30 LOL!
Never happened to me either, yet I won't be happy if it does. Actually I can be really nasty if woken up before time LOL
Its irritating when someone doesnt take 'No Thanks' as a reasonable response.
I think its rude to disrespect anyones privacy which if its too early ,too late ,or follow-ups is!
At work people often approach me with comments about my religion or their religious points of view usually with a certain degree of respect. It is interesting to see the nonbelievers become intolerant of my discussions which are deamed as "Inappropriate in the workplace," despite the conversations they have amongst themselves boasting of their infidelity and opinions which rage against humanity and all inklings of moral fiber.
Hey hun, an eye opener for ya! Religious peoples don't always keep their noses clean and you may be on of the few who does.
I really do not like negative people, even tough I am sometime negative myself. Shame of me. But... when JW comes Saturday to my house I open door and welcome them with the :-) face. My wife Carol use to say I am sorry for them, since he is preaching to them hours. I enjoy to discuss the Bible. That's my life, my light and love. - Any translation of Bible should not be put down. All the time they are better, since Bible was translated by people with book knowledge, not active living language. There are many synonyms in the Bible words. Then we have new revelation and I am grateful for it. I am trying read in original. LG should learn original languages. When Lord will return there will be international Hebrew language. The King will be sitting on the throne of David. - In witnessing great ingredient is love and friendship. I know that sin will kill you, but God see as already through the window of His Son. He already forgave us sin of unbelief.
Well that won't be in our lifetimes and I am including those who are being born in the next 50 years!
If you look at Sin rationally and observe things. Sin and death are more of how you treat your body. If you eat the wrong foods you will get sick and the body will suffer for it. That includes cancer! When you give your body to anyone else--including Physician's and then you blame it on Satan or pray to some outside force you are not taking care of that body that was given to you. For some reason religion teaches us that we are not to know our bodies and their functions on all levels. They teach us that it is devilish or Satanic. Why and when did that happen--the Garden of Eden???----or when they decided what will go into the books of the Bible or not and what was taken out in the 6th, 8th and 15th centuries.
Again a few are not hearing my words---they mistranslated the world ERA with WORLD. It is going to be the end of an ERA not the WORLD.
Of the three people who live in this flat, two are native Hebrew speakers. The third (me) is a beginner.
LOL Amanda, Vladimir meant another LG, Lady Guinevere
This is not to say that I have any opinion on learning Hebrew
My opinion is that it's a pretty tricky language to learn!
Nah - it is easy. Vladimir here learned it in 5 minutes flat - and now has the unadulterated word of god into his head any time he wants it.
Oh and didn't he say that he used the Bible and *other* books from other major religions to go by but I can't use the ones that I go by because all his are ture and mine--well mine must have been dug up from dog poo or something......
How many Major Religions are there and how many books are there? Many, many and more and more.
It is getting more interesting. Ms LG you like to talk and never listen. I told you, you should learn Hebrew and Greek and read in originals. I apology if you feel being criticized. New Ager's always put down others religion to promote theirs.
They also accepted Jesus or YHWH as a their gods to add to their millions gods.they confuse Christians. Pardon me I am not religious. I am the believer. As I know and understand Bible there is all what I need for functional victorious life. Why I should look for extra Biblical sources? I do not need it. I read all major religious books available and it is enough.
Don't you just hate it when you tell everyone something and then they come right back at you and tell you that you don't do it but they told you to.
If you don't want to read other sources, that is your problem and not mine.
What exactly are you tryng to point out here?
He is trying to point out that you have confused every other source with the Bible and making what is not part of the Bible, biblical references that you are confusing what is in the Bible with what is not in the Bible and claiming that everything you know came from the Bible when clearly it did not.
He might also being trying to point out that for someone who says I believe in Jesus, you are certainly doing everything you can to criticize anyone who thinks differently then you as if you are so much more studied then the rest when you really haven't read the OT in Hebrew or the NT in Greek.
That you are also taking the teachings of Jesus and scrambling the message to make all who believe in Him (except for you) fools because you really think you know more.
You haven't much respect for people who want to do what is right and good but give a lot of credit and follow along in the same path as the ones who go out of their way also to criticize people who believe in Jesus or God or the Bible.
What ever it is you are doing is your thing but Mike is right we can talk all we want about God and Jesus and the Bible and there isn't anything you or anyone can do to stop it.
If you don't like it, then don't listen. This seems to be what you want to do anyways because you believe that we are a bunch of knuckle heads who really don't know anything yet what we do know is that if you really love Jesus like you say you do then why do you go out of your way to "ridicule" like the others do?
and how do you know I haven't read anything in hebrew or greek. I do have a friend that has those versions and has given me referrences. I am not confusing any other source with the Bible. The Bible is not complete--simple as that. I don't consider myself as a New Ager either. When all God's were made into the ONE God in the early history of the Church, the Angels and Saint's were then added as a replacment for the *Other* Gods that they worshiped before. There were many Angels named in the Original Bible and then the 6th Century some were taken out and then again in the 8th century. You won't find that in the Bible, because the scholars didn't want you to know that and they teach you that if you go to any other book that you are dealing with Satan.........what a great way to get others to believe by fear.
When the first church was made (not Peter's Chruch that Christ chose) the clergy did not face the congregation. Every ask why? Where is that written in the Bible? What did Christ say about any clergy--in the Bible?
Now, do I listen, Yes I listen, but I also will find things to back up the claim and it isn't always the Bible--because it says that everything is not in there and to go and prove it. Now I know that those who believe the Bible in it's crippleness will tell you that you are only supposed to look in the Bible for answers---where does it say that and which version does it say it in. The answers are WITHIN You and not in a book. Christ leads you to the answers that you seek and they are not always in a book. Angels Unawares. Didn't Jesus say that he disguised himself to see how a family would react to a stranger...... do you know that story?
Oh yest the story of Jesus...
He came knocking on peoples doors before he was known as Jesus that we formally know him as and the people that said they love God did not allow him to enter. They did not offer him a meal or invite him into their homes.
But there was a group of people that did regardless of who he was, they didn't know he was God but allowed him to enter because they are good loving people.
So, you never know when God will be knocking at your door but it is more then likely that you would turn deny God and not even know it because Jesus asked to love our neighbors.
Tolerance of other beliefs is a virtue that only some people possess. Earlier here when I said about my grandfather being a pure soul who lived his life with one simple vegetarian meal and spending his time in meditations and prayers there were some "christian" folks here in Obama anti christ hub who said that even he would be in hell and his soul would be eaten by "worms". Even myself have been ridiculed in some threads for having beliefs in Karma/reincarnation and was told that those who believe in such things are surely devil/satan(idol)worshipers but only LG came in my support at that time. Then there are some folks who preach that all those who don't believe in anyone but Christ are "thieves/robbers". Even some "Christians" need to be open minded and respectful of other views/beliefs. Sometimes I feel we have all the religions in the world to divide each other but not enough to love each other. Just my two cents.
Thank You CW. They don't see it that way though and I am wondering just who put that thought into their minds to begin with. Before the written word and in Jewish traditions.
What the Church is:
I thought at least NT was not written in Hebrew, Aramaic perhaps
To me - no, but those who want to read originals are up to learning those two and perhaps Coptic and Greek...
I frankly am having enough difficulties with just English
Say your english is excellent and people probably think you're from Texas.
Thanks Raven, but it is still not without difficulties. So I can hardly see myself learning four more languages, especially ancient ones...
Ah well - if you want the word of god directly into your head - you need to pretend that you can understand an ancient language that has not been spoken in 1,500 years. Easy really.
Me either - I can speak a little ancient Latin from my school days but I don't pretend that makes me an expert. I am having enough trouble speaking French, German and Dutch on a daily basis.
Ja - Ik heb vor tien yaar in Nederlands gewoned. Kut.
Wat luek. Uitkijken joh, mijn Hollands is niet zo goed ook, maar kut bedoeld iets sexuels. Did you do any evangelizing over there, how is it in comparison to American or any other country?
Speaking no Dutch, but having acheived a pitiful GCSE German, that looks quite similar to High German to be - you have lived for tein (3? 10?) years in the Netherlands, something like that?
Yes I have for 10 years in Holland lived
This is a direct response to the question that started this intriguing thread. I think there are many ways to witness, but two very effective ways. One is to be a witness by being like Jesus, (we should do that anyway), and presenting the love of God and being completely opposite to the world. The best way is to kindly excuse yourself when the subject starts revolving around immorality, and reading the Bible out in the open, but never say anything unless asked. The other way is to be a mouth piece, and challenge people about what they think is their eternal fate and go from there. I used to be a mouth piece at work. Then I felt that I was being too pushy and that my walk was not representing my talk so I stopped being a bullhorn so to speak. I used to get a lot of questions and they would listen because I talked about it, but now, no one cares at all. When they do ask something, it is because I talked about it years ago. So for me, I know God wants me to be a mouth piece. I'll have to agree with Mark Knowles, better to make some people angry or unhappy, and get some to see the light, than to be nice and say nothing at all. Even as a mouth piece, it can be done with tact and love.
Keeping in mind of course what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, paraphrased in short: "I am become all things to all men, so that some may be saved." Meaning we need to care about each person and their background, and try to adapt.
I don't get into religious discussions , ever, but have you ever tried to convince an alcoholic that they needed help.. people get help when they are ready ,, not before and certainly not because you tell them they need it.
Hey, don't you love that Texan Misha? I love Mark too.
When I come to Jewish family, I say I am adopted Jew. I love Yews. If I go to Misha's home, to visit, I will say: Tovarisch, tovarisch, kak tebe zvat? :-). When you love people, then it is easy.
Most Christians today only talk about their faith, not walk it. If the Christians really did stand up and walk their faith this country would not be in the situation it is today. Slaughtering millions of innocent children is not a characteristic of a Christian nation. God blesses the righteous actions of a righteous nation. "The prayers of a humble man availeth much." This nation is not humble. Christians are not active in spreading their faith. They are not active in showing Christ's love. We have blended in with a nation of hypocrites and shallow feelings.
You seem to be operating under the misguided notion that the United States is a "Christian nation"; it's not and never has been:
From the treaty of Tripoli 1796:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
It's quite obvious that there are far too many quotes from the founders and every single President, up to the most current Presidents, that support the notion of our nation, as a people, are predominantly Christian. Certainly the founders recognized that there was no way our nation would have succeeded without the support of an omnipotent and Providential God. The people who say the founders were not Christian choose to overlook the hundreds upon hundreds of direct quotes.
Okay, I just read your abortion article, I see where you were coming from. However I must add that your comment seems more about riling people up for the sake of watching people get riled up - like I did. I thought you were talking about Iraq or something obscure.
Now I will add my two cents to your comment. If we really want to defend the lives of these innocents, civil war is probably the only recourse. We are losing our freedoms one by one to fill the pockets of politicians, and there is nothing to stop it. Taxes go up, but the roads still have potholes. (Sticking with the road issue as an example) - we are double or triple taxed at the fuel pump and at DMV for registration, and there is a sales tax on new and used vehicles, yet the same pothole that did finally get fixed, will reappear next year after a good rain, so the same contractor can come back and do it again. Smells like corruption to me. The worst part is nothing can stop this unless people gather together and present a unified and forceful front.
It may not be exclusive to Christianity, which is a good thing otherwise it would be discriminate, but it is "one nation under God", "in God we trust", and recognizes creation from a higher entity.
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" John Adams
"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" Benjamin Franklin
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests"
John Quincy Adams
"Under God" wasn't added to the pledge until 1954, and "in God we trust" didn't become the motto until 1956. Funny how we managed all those years without it.
You know they added things to the things above and people just know it is truth from the very beginning.....but the kicker is--they did the exact same thing to the Bible and they are still doing it! Go figure!
But "in God we trust" has been on U.S. coins since 1864. It was added then because of the destruction of the Civil War. I believe Lincoln had them minted without the help of the money changers cause their money came with too high of an interest rate.
Thanks Ai, I didn't have to go look it up.
Oh yeah, 1841. It would be cool to see how early they did have "in God we trust" on the coins.
Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasar's/ I am Maximus, are you not entertained?
What I would like to know about witnessing is why do so many Christians, feel the need to witness to Christians? Why aren't they out in the trenches witnessing to people who have never heard the "word" before? Why are they always hounding the same people, and fellow Christians? It's a pain in the arse!
I believe it is because they do not know who is Christian and who is not. There are religions however that want to change you from your own beliefs to there own which to me is an absolute no-no if I wanted to be a part of theire beliefs I would have chosen it, we all can think for ourselves.
Well Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is Within and he didn't descriminate. For another, We are God's children--every one of us and he didn't descriminate between religion or anything else. Jesus also put the laws in the minds and hearts of men and he didn't say one group or another in that.
Who really witnesses to whom if everyone is of God and inherently knows the laws already? We are supposed to love everyone, no matter what their background, beliefs, likes or dislikes are. I do believe that the definition of what love is is in the Bible. Just because we don't agree with a certain entity or groups does not in no way, shape or form make it that we hate it. If we re God's children and he is all around us, then God is in everything that we do, think, say. It is our own thoughts that are our prison or our heaven. Jesus said that too in the book.
See, I think they do know who is a Christian most of the time. I also think it is just a way for Christians to back stab other Christians. It's sickening.
I believe that using one's personal experiance, and knowledge of and with God helps to uplift and edify those around us. Yes there are a few who tend to laps over from the virtue of boldness to overbearance, however it is always a refining process and even in situations where a negative outcome ensues, it almost always promotes growth. This is the desired outcome, to increase in knowledge and faith.
And when Christians demand we pray for guidance in a Jury waiting room, after they've went around and tried to pray for each of us silence Christians who had a headache is what? A pain in the arse. Christians and their powers to be, need to learn to shut up and when it's been enough. They need to stop pressing people, throwing their Christian beliefs into other Christians, Muslims, Hindu, whoever else's faces. People don't go to church anymore because they are afraid too. Now that is sickening. And why are they afraid too, because over zealous Christians don't seem to care that they are stepping on quieter Christians toes. I know I'm sick of it. I know when I have a christian knocking on my door to witness to me, I quickly say,"Does my door mat say 'Welcome'?" Then I tell them they best be running off my property or else. I've sick of it. And if I'm sick of it, a "Christian"- then I think that there is a REAL problem here in American and around the world. I don't care what the good book says about that.
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Forget to put the sign up on your door that says God not welcome, or is that all people not welcome?
Have a bad day yesterday that you decided to speak up in a hateful way to address how much you surly hate all christians because what?
You could just get out of the religion section of the forum and be a happier person but for some reason you all come back as though you are doing yourselves a favor by writing obnoxious post in a threads dedicated to a believe in God?
Go as hp admin to make for you a special section for only atheist and I wont bother you there.
No you just didn't. Oh you did! Don't come after me, just to make yourself look special. Because that is just retarded. I understand that maybe you didn't like what I had to say to you in another forum thread. But don't come in here, and start picking a fight with me- just to be ugly. I am commenting on my own personal feelings. I will not go to the hp admin to set myself up, with whatever. Did you even read what I wrote? I am a Christian. But again, don't spill your nastiness that you hold against into this forum post just because YOU are mad. I think RK might be onto something, and maybe you should just settle down and take the criticism and make it productive.
No- You know what- nah, never mind. Peace be with you- sincerely, It is your choice to become better or worse. I'll not be party to either. I would appreciate it if you,.........nah, good luck to you.
I detect a hint of animosity. Have you tried breathing techniques?
Lol! I just had jury duty, and I swear this one lady would not back off. I finally had to tell, she needed to stay at least 10ft from me at all times, I told I was allergic to her perfume. I couldn't take it anymore. And then someone put up this witnessing thread. And I was like- YES! I understand the exchanging of information- but hounding people get us nowhere.
Well - as you have just been told to stop spreading your version of the TRUTH at your workplace - maybe you should take the hint.
I guess you do not see how you are generating the animosity - seeing as you are speaking for god.
God ain't too bright, I guess.........
"Dumb as a post," is the expression that comes to mind.
like many of the militant Atheists that I am associated with, as soon as they smell a little aesthetical communication between any two people, their first intent is to destroy that sentiment in open forum even when they wern't part of the conversation.
Really? Your really think tht don't you? Hmmmm.....
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." GBS
"All men who are in a carnal state are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness."-Alma
Surely you jest!! I am not in bitterness ever! You are what you think--period. I think happy so therefore I am happy. You want to be in bitterness then that is fine for you and go for it!! As for the rest of us here--I don't think we want to share in that gflory of yours/
Well. I was and am part of the conversation. Aesthetical?
Someone (a christian I might add) has pointed out that they do not want your god shoved at them. You then made an inane sarcastic remark that suggested they should "deal with it."
Which aptly demonstrates your lack of concern for others. A common theme in this thread.
And I heartily recommend a decent dictionary to look up the meaning of the word "aesthetic."
You have somehow misunderstood what I said, there was no sarcasm in my post but I suppose when one scrapes for insults the last line of defense is pointing out gramatical error. Kudos to you!
Onusonus, you should have noticed by now, how you write several points in a post, and only one (if any) gets replied to. Usually the least significant one.
I personally have been contemplating posting single point comments. But, I surmise, even that will be missed/misinterpreted. But of course, without some explanation, everyone reads into it what they want.
I guess the secret is, is to have fun with it, no matter how it "goes down".
Certainly my posts have never been intended with any malice, but boy have I copped some rebukes in the past. Ke'-se-ra-se-ra . . .
It wasn't a grammatical error.
Let us take it one point at a time then as you are so upset that I make fun of you using a word that has no meaning in this context.
First of all you use the term "militant atheist," which implies that any atheist who argues with believers is in favor of military action against them. This is incendiary, inaccurate and disingenuous.
Second of all, you use the term "aesthetical." This word does not exists and I am guessing you meant to imply that what you were discussing was beautiful in nature. This is untrue. Not only that, the sentence you used was this:
It was either sarcastic or inconsiderate and in no way acknowledged the person you were speaking to. Merely re-iterated that you feel you should be able to "witness," by preaching any time you feel like it regardless of others feelings on the subject.
you fail to mention the fact that this person was responding to my origional post with extreemly negative connotations by the which I made the loving suggestion to cool down from a rather hot rant. You, being the pinacle of love and tolerance that you are, surmise that I am inconsiderant of other people's feelings because you lack the ability to find good in others.
No - I failed to mention the fact that the person concerned basically said he was sick and tired of listening to people like you preach.
I am detecting a certain level of anger and hatred in your words here - Why don't you go and lie down for a while?
And seeing as you have been arguing throughout this thread that you have a right to preach regardless of who you upset, I do not see why you are suggesting that the person "cool down" rather than accepting that you are being told in no uncertain terms that he is sick of listening to it.
This is what I consider to be the christian tough love, which has no relation to real love.
If you really wanted to show love, you would not have been arguing throughout this thread and complaining that your employers asked you to stop "witnessing" at work.
Some believers get sick and tired of listening to you preach too about how stupid we are and our lack of consideration for another person feelings or thoughts but you do it too so fair is fair.
I wonder if this is what you consider to be atheistic love. Point out there flaws and annoyances and inconsiderate nature while also showing an inconsiderate, disrespectful, self righteous and pious sentiment yourself.
Oh - I know - I have been complained about on many occasions, and most of you have made it plain you are upset that some one has a differing opinion to you. Fortunately I do not go around pretending it is because I love you and I know it is for your own good.
Are we seeing the difference yet?
It is rather entertaining how upsetting y'all find it to be preached at while continuing to do what you are complaining about.
Well that "y'all" doesn't include me because the only thing I find upsetting isn't in the preaching of differing views. It's how much both sides detest each other as opposed to just saying, "okay, if that is what you believe then good on you."
However my argument of sorts is always about the rights of each side to say what they want to say and while you don't have to like anyone you just don't like or accept or whatever, one thing that I do find to be a good thing is a "loving" acceptance for another persons expressed opinions. Meaning that, out of love I understand why a person believes what they do.
Lovingly accepting their opinion doesn't mean I will do just as you say but I can understand when it is what a person finds to be good for themselves.
Atheist want to tell the believers that they are stupid for believing in a God that doesn't exist because your person testimony tells you that it works for you so it should work for everyone else too.
While the believing side says I believe because this is what happened to me or because the Bible says or because blah, blah, blah....
There is no difference in either side.
Yes - I hear that a lot from people who cannot accept that just because they make a decision based on no information and blind faith - everyone else must do as well and will not take an answer that means we didn't do it the same way as you. Sorry. Doesn't wash.
Not really. It is more about the fact that your god does not exist. Not really about what works for me or not. Y'all believe whateva you want. Just don't be surprised that some of us choose not to believe it.
Good. So - you will not be surprised that many of us are sick of listening to it. But that doesn't seem to stop you from pushing the idea that we should - for our own good of course. And you wonder why there are so many arguments........
You seem to determined to catagorise this as a fight - you keep using words such as "hate", "hateful", "sides", "detest".
I don't think it's like that. My mother, for example, is a devout Anglican, and I respect and admire her views.
But I also respect and admire that she doesn't try to force them on other people.
That's is SO F'N true. Bitch, bitch, bitch and bitch some more. Christian's would bitch about Christ and to Christ if they had a chance. 90% of them would be witnessing while they were at it. God, what a nightmare.
I too noticed how the Christian in Sandra Rinck, was quick to point all HER grievances with you and resort to disrespectful name calling at YOUR expense.
How Christian of you Sandra. Nice.
Anger and hatred? Nonsense, my posts are cheeky and entertaining, whereas yours are tragic and hurtfull. Now how about going into the kitchen and brewing up a nice cup of shut yer face!
Cheeky and what?!!!???? NOT! I don't think your last sentence is anything like cheeky and entertaining at all. It has all the makings of ANGER and HATE.
LOL. He could have offered him a tissue for his issue. LOL Sorry that is my new thing. I think it is funny.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! That is a good one. I must remember that!
As hilarious as you all keep putting Jesus on that cross in front of all to see, when the ten commandmentssay no graven images of anything in nature or of a person or of anything.
I think when you die we should keep the memory of how you died around for a very long time.
Oh and the thing you said to Mark about baptizing him! That is over the top!!! You can't do that. Mark an all of us are already babtized. Now you could wait a couple of hundred years and make him a Saint! Oh wasn't He and Misha Saint's earlier on Hubpages?! So you can't do that either!
How truly funny your are--NOT!
A question--why do you and others like you feel the *need* to minister to anyone?
My religion doesn't believe in displaying pictures of "dying Jesus" only "living Jesus"
Second; I baptize the dead all the time by virtue of the priesthood, who is to say that he wont change his mind in the next life?
What next life? What does the living Jesus look like?
Well according to Biblical accounts no one recognized him when he came back. How many times does he have to come back before Christians recognized the fact that he has already come back?
Is he white with light brown hair and does he wear a beard and mustache or is he black with a turban?
Well, it is sort of funny the way you keep on making up new meanings for words. I will concede that.
I like you, I think after you die I will baptize you. When is your birthday?
Umm, thanks, but no thanks.
Does that even work? I mean - I know you guys are big fans of forcing other people to believe the same rubbish that you do, but that seems a little extreme.
Maybe he's a Mormon - they spend a lot of time tracing family trees and baptising their great-great-uncles and so forth.
Now before I was so rudely interupted by the work force and it's mandatory 8 hour day; The priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek comes with the power to bind on Earth the things which are bound in Heaven, thus this ordinance amid several others are sealed in Heaven eternaly. I consider it to be a vessle by which a door is opened, not to detract from the ability to choose for ones self, much like leading a horse to water if you so choose to subscribe to the analagy. It realy removes the factor of Fear mongering from this aspect of christianity, hence I never say to a person that they are in danger of hellfire, although I might for anger's sake tell somone to go there on occasion. In the same aspect I recognize the fact that I might not end up where I thought I was going after all is said and done, and because of the indefinence of the human path I never subscribe to the popular notions of being "saved" before mortality expires.
So - you feel comfortable baptizing dead people?
I do not really understand the motivation for this so would you mind answering some questions? Because I never heard of this. First of all - do you belong to some other christian cult I don't know about because the CoE and the catholics don't do this.
Apparently you seem to believe in some sort of life after death scenario? So - you are making a decision for them based on the fact that they might have chosen to be baptized at some point if you could only have been more persuasive while they were still alive.
Do you feel guilty that you failed to persuade them while they were alive?
I take this also to mean that you seem to think you are doing them a favor by making the decision they should have made for themselves and you think they would have done if only they had believed the truth. Don't you think that is a little presumptuous?
I mean - I clearly do not believe in a god yet you told me you would baptize me after I died - so you seem to think you have the power to decide whether I go to heaven or not. Did you say that to try and provoke me - or do you really think you get to choose if I get "saved," by baptizing me after I am dead?
Mormons do it. My Dad's grandmother was "baptised" as a Mormon by her own grandmother's sister's descendants, some 50 years after she died.
Ah. You learn something new every day. I have seen and heard of some funny rituals amongst religionists, but I think I have a winner here.
I promise I'm not making this up:
"There have been complaints that particularly enthusiastic Mormons have been carrying out proxy baptisms for prominent historical and religious figures including the members of other faiths.
For example the Ba'al Shem Tov, the 18th century founder of the Hasidic Jewish movement, was baptised a Mormon.
In 1995 the Church agreed to halt proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims and other deceased Jews, and to remove the names of all Holocaust victims from the files. Such names are now only accepted if they are resubmitted by a direct descendant or if consent is obtained from the dead person's immediate family.
Since that agreement Church genealogists have stripped hundreds of thousands of Jewish names from baptismal records."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions … dead.shtml
Wow. I did not know this. I can hardly wait until onusonus comes back and tries to explain it to me.
This is actually fantastic marketing. I mean - there is an awful lot of dead people out there so the possibilities are endless. I wonder how guilty they are made to feel for not baptizing all the possible dead people. Do they have quotas? 275 dead saved this year sort of thing?
How Many Dead Have You Saved Today?
I wonder if I start un-baptizing them they will get scared I have undone all the good work they did in their lives. Boy - I am going to have so much fun with this one. I knew about the special underpants, but not this. This is awesome !
This is also entertaining:
I agree with (you) Mark. Once the person is dead, the choice was made/set. There is no changes thereafter. Baptizing the dead is not scriptural either.
So much for individual responsibility, accountability and freedom of choice. If it can be over-ruled, it's meaningless.
Due to time constraints I will start with the saved portion and leave the rest for later Baptism is an ordinance which is required for any person to enter the kingdom of God, since there are several levels of heaven everyone has the oportunity to enter any of them after baptism depending on how you have lived throughout mortality and depending on the ordinances and covenants one has participated in depends on where you go, so being "Saved" in my opinion is shooting low. As I said before it is simply opening the door you still get the choice to enter. But if you realy don't want me to do it I can respect that.
I don't care whether you do it or not. It is pretty obvious to me that the whole thing is for your benefit not mine and I will be dead anyway.
I will be interested in hearing your answers to my questions though.
Where was I? You wanted to know if I feel guilty failing to persuade others to be Christian? Not realy, We believe that the spirits who are dead either go to paradise or are in a spiritual prison, (after all noone goes to heaven or hell until after the day of judgment.) By the way it might prove to be difficult unbaptizing people, there are over two hundred LDS temples world wide and people perform proxy baptisms at any given hour of the day, six days a week. In fact last week I did tewnty and the week before that I did sixty. I'm also part Jewish by descendancy so I might eventualy find a Ba'al Shem Tov down the road. (In your face London Girl!)
Wow - I would be feeling pretty guilty about now if I believed this stuff. I mean - we know you can do 60, yet last week you only did 20. That is a pretty big drop in production.
And I have to ask a couple more questions because this is fascinating.
Do you get yourself baptized regularly in case some one un-baptizes you without your knowledge?
Once you have baptized a certain number of dead people without their consent, do you get to graduate to baptizing live people?
No, a person only has to be baptized once, but it has to be by somone who has authority to do so; they have to be comissioned by the priesthood and the priesthood comes only by the laying on of hands by Christ like Aaron was. I think this question falls under the catagory of excommunication whereby I would loose the priesthood and couldn't perform or participate in any ordinances.
There is no quota for baptisms if someone asks you to baptize them or if you have proxied for dead people which ever comes first. Also my numbers were low because when you do family history sometimes you hit dead ends and it gets tough to find more people, but my kids and grandkids will probably pick up any that were left behind later on.
So what is the point of baptizing dead Jews for example? I understand they go in for a different sort of ceremony and find the idea of being baptized offensive. If your baptizing them can over-ride their version - what If I have a very powerful un-baptizing skill? Which, I do of course, being a militant atheist, the Flying Spaghetti Monster has endowed me with all sorts of powers you could never comprehend.
Still wondering why you told me you would baptize me after I am dead? I mean - as you are probably aware the religions like to start indoctrinating the young as soon as possible so I was baptized when I was a baby.
Do you think your baptism will be stronger than the one I already had?
I realy think that it was intended to be symbolic for a change in heart during mortality, not so much to be a quick dunk to remove the effects of "origional sin." Babies never go to Hell. It's false doctrine and would be uncharacteristic of the true nature of God.
Ordinances are performed through the priesthood, so if you do not have the priesthood you can't do it, and no other church has the priesthood so it isn't recognized by God. That might upset a few people but as the scripture says, "No man takes this honor upon himself save he be called of God as was Aaron" and no other Church can claim that they have that direct contact through a prophet who recieved it from Christ.
What you have missed, or refuse to aknowledge, is that the person who was responding negatively was doing so because of people "witnessing" in the same manner you seem to employ.
Instead of telling them to "cool down" you would have been far better served to really "hear" what this person, someone who is one of your fellow Christians, was saying and take it to heart.
You have shown yourself to be inconsiderate of others feelings by dismissing how your brand of "witnessing" affects others; Christian and non-believers alike.
You know, you should really use the criticism as constructive. Maybe you can't see anything wrong. But, maybe in the future you will and that constructive criticism stashed away, will make you better for it. But, you can't right now and I understand that. You mad. Well fine. But really- don't cha...........never mind. Peace
Well I live in a portion of America where Christians harass Christians all the time. You'd think that maybe these Christians would at least go online and download some demographics or something. Better yet, I don't understand why these Christians, don't go down into the ghetto, pick up trash or fix up a neighborhood and do some real Christian work instead of harassing people by going door to door living in all the safe Christian neighborhoods!
Exactly. Teach, not preach. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Help all the children of the world don't preach to them about how they should be--help them where they are now.
Christians are so durned worried about what is going to happen when----when---when---and hoping---hoping----hoping and not concentrating on the right now. When you feel gratitude for what you have it goes on to others by what your thoughts and deeds are---not about mouthing anything. Love comes from what you can do right now in this very moment where you are---not in some other place in some other land in some other time.
What makes them (Christians) think that us non-believers want to spend eternity with them anyways? That would be hell!!
We often focus on the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, but the Spirit also has a vital role to play in the lives of non-Christians. The Holy Spirit ‘will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment,’ taught Jesus (John 16:8). When we witness, the Spirit of God is not only working within us, prompting us as to what to say, but he is also working within those we witness to, convicting them of the truth of what we share and of their need of salvation.
To understand the processes at work, we’ll look at Adam and Eve. Adam was not just another human. He is the human from whom all humanity came. All human genes (even Eve’s) come from him. Our entire genetic make-up was incorporated in him. So his reactions are likely to be typical of all human reactions.
When Adam and Eve sinned, the first indication that they were under conviction was that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked.
Conviction is God in his mercy opening our eyes to the reality of our spiritual condition. Without it we would be blissfully unaware that we are sinners. We’d be on our way to hell and not even know it.
I got a problem with the top paragraph in which you say thatr the Holy Spirit tells you what to say---does it also tell those priests and minsiters tht have done nasty things to their parishioners in his name? Does it cover all those Catholic Priests that did all those dispicable things to their own children of the parish.
Everything else you say is hogwash! The Kingdom of God is within you--or did you mis that Sunday School lesson! LOL
How can any of us be "blissfully unaware" of the sins we do if you all shove it down our throats, post it up on your church signs outside of every church and go witnessing. I must say this is a good copout for those of you who preach it but don't live it adn where is the Self-Responisbility at....hmmmm. Get the log our of your eye first before you even try to get the sawdust out of someone else's eye.
Thank God for the merciful tenderness of His Holy Spirit.
To me it depends on the source of the belief. I respect and am interested in anyone's spiritual beliefs that are borne from a personal revelation or experience. If they understand that these beliefs pertain to them and almost certainly not to me, and simply want to share something to help with their own understanding; I'm all ears.
When someone espouses beliefs that are based on such a dubious source as "the" bible; a collection of flawed works written by flawed authors that few "believers" bother to understand the origins of, count me out. I have no interest in philosophies based on fear, ignorance, and injustice.
I found this story and I think it sums up witnessing and why, plus it comes from a surprising source.
I went to that site and have more questions for you.
What messages are you getting from the Bible?
I am not talking about the ones that your church tells you on Sunday, but the ones that you are getting by sitting and reading the book by yourself without regards to what others are telling you.
Hello LG, could you be more specific. I know you hate church, Why?
I am specific, why do you turn it around and not answer the question?
I believe John 3;16, The bible tells to love your neighnors hate sin/sinful actions(love the sinner hate the sin). I beleive God sent Jesus to die for our sins and in order to be saved, you must seek God, forsake your past sinful life and try with you heart, soul and mind to follow God Laws, and be baptized. Further more I believe We christians must practice what we preach. I answered this question from you before now that I've answered it again,just read my hubs, I can tell you my testimony and how I came to know Christ. What do you want to know how can I help you? Why do you hate church?
What is church to you before I state (many times I have) my thoughts and knowledge again.
What does the whole paragraph say in John 3?
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]
John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[i] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."
27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ[j] but am sent ahead of him.' 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.
31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]
Church in my life has two meanings.
1)it's a building where you can go to recieve the word of God
2)a state of being in your heart where have been saved and you spend your life according to Gods will, spreading his word and being Christ-Like and being ready for Jesus Second Coming.
Ah, I see. You don't see in the bible where Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within you?
I have made my testamony on hubpages, yet many do not believe as many did not believe that it was Jesus who did as he said that he would and did in fact come back after he died. Read my comment to Onusonus.
Jesus said that the temple of the lord is our own bodies, not a building and not a church and not doctrines that those churches teach.
I do not hate church, what I don't like is they do not teach the message that Jesus came to teach us. The wrap it all up in being put on guilt trips so that you will feel guilty and do whatever they want you to do so that you can give them money to build churches. Doctrine is not Jesus's teachings. Jesus even said that to the clergy of his time.
That which goe against what is show to you in that Bible is labelled evil, Satanic and then there is also a pattern to which you try to convert others. Jesus did not say to convert anyone or make anyone believe like the church doctrine states. He simply said to tell others about his miracles and his words (only his words have been so messed up whose to say what he really said. He also said that we can and we will do more than he could ever do and that surprises me about church doctrine because he never said that we had to do it through someone else.
The Jesus that I know and have had personal contact with is not like how the Bible portrays him at all. He did what he said he was going to do.....end of story. That is why he put the laws (not in a book) in our hearts and minds so that we could never forget them. We know what is right and what is wrong.
Now let me ask you another question. Who told you that you sinned and did something very terrible?
No One It's called having a conscience ie conviction. You have it too believe or not. Question to you LG. Why do you feel the need to say what you do? I believe what I believe and tell others my testimony they choose what to do and who to follow. Why can't you do that as well You can't change everyones heart, but you can give them your POV and let it go and keep them in your thoughts and prayers, and if they ask you further questions lead them to Christ and let him take over. You've said you have read the bible when you read did you have a contrive heart? Were you looking for a specific answer? Was it for you or to disproven the bible all together? We disagree LG, but I don't hate you or wish you any ill will.
PS Where does Revelation fit into your theory? Or is that crazy talk to you?
Wow, how you ridicule me for my beliefs yet you want everyong to believe as you do----not going to happen!!
When are you going to get it that Jesus never used the Bible.
You may call me crazy and you did label me---so b it.
Please do not condescend others because they don't agree with the way that you have been indoctrinated (brainwashed by doctrine that Jesus had no part in).
How Christ-like you are and how nice of you to put yourself above everyone else.
Are you serious? Because I read the bible I'm brainwashed? Okay LG whatever you say. I'm not here to force anyone to do anything. You are. I've said this over and over again. LG you go your way I'll go mine. I wish you all the best. PS I never called you crazy. I don't believe you are. I believe you have your theories and you are entitled to them just like everyone else.
The atheist in this short video speaks with intelligence. Thanks Pam.
Mostly I just find it amusing how some gung ho Christians try to persuade everyone to adopt their faith, and how a few of the outspoken atheists state you are not enlightened until you stop believe in God. Both of these stances are two extreme for me lol.
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