At some point about nine months ago I was convicted to begin covering my head. As you know, I am a Christian woman and I hope I've expressed solidly that I am also a Bible-believing woman. When I find a scripture that speaks to me, I examine, re-examine and then examine again. I've talked to so many people about this issue, and have come up against so many reasons why women feel that the covering shouldn't be worn as it is/was traditionally.
The one that always irks me is "Well Paul was writing only to Corinth." First of all, one must examine the fact that as Christians we believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. If not, then the entire premise on which our faith is based begins to crumble. God is, by His nature, omniscient and omnipresent: He was able to see not only Corinth but the world, and He could see not only the current time period but every time period throughout human history. For me, that particular argument doesn't stand even if one does *not* consider that Paul was careful to point out that all the churches of God had the same practice and that Corinth shouldn't want to stand out like a sore thumb.
The argument you make regarding the head covering being the hair is quite compelling. Where I get caught with this particular interpretation of the scripture is that conversely would 1 Corinthians 11 mean that men should all wear their hair shaven? Personally, I'm not sure.
I like wearing a scarf. I like the way that it looks, it keeps my head cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter, and it feels good to me. For me, it is a reminder of my position in the (human) family as well as in the church (God's family). It keeps me more mindful of myself, my behavior, and how my actions affect others. None of which is a bad thing, I think
Regardless, the way that I see it is that I'm not hurting anyone (including myself). It makes me happy and as a Christian I know it not to be a sin to wear the covering -- while it might be sinful not to do so. It makes me happy and it has brought me increased contentment (another subject on which Paul taught )
i am glad that you like wearing the scarf and that it is your choice...... I hate to wear hats or scarfs, I dont know why, they are just not comfortable on me.....
When I see ladies with their heads covered, I always think it is because they have to because of their religion, and feel sad for them because maybe they dont want to but have to..... now I know differently, at least in your case..... Nice thread, could almost be a hub
I have a hub on the subject, Brenda Just possibly not a good one.
I am personally of the opinion that if one is forced into doing it, that it somehow loses its meaning. I have a friend who was raised Amish Mennonite and she can't stand to have anything on her head because for her, it was a sign of religious oppression. Very interesting.
What I also find interesting is that I have known women (more than one) who can't stand to have anything around their neck. Several have claimed that it has to do with reincarnation and the fact that they were hanged in their past lives. I don't know about reincarnation (no longer believe in it, though I'm not sure that Christianity necessarily refutes it in the Bible), but for me, I find wearing something around my neck to be a comfort in much the same way as I enjoy the scarf
I have a question for you. You use the word "convicted," - what does that word mean?
Your question is not an easy one to answer, because the word is going to mean something different in different settings and to different people.
In the manner in which I used the word (as a verb), to me it means that it was impressed upon me that this was something I needed to do and which would benefit me.
To make a short story long, I tried it. I figured that the Amish and the Mennonites had some reason for doing it and for continuing to be Amish or Mennonite. At first I didn't see any kind of a difference for me. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either. So I stopped wearing it.
After a while I changed my mind again and started wearing the scarf again. Now I can see a difference, but I've done more research, too.
I come from a background where submission is something... heh, fun Many symbols are used to signify that one belongs (voluntarily, of course) to another. The head covering is a way of doing that where I don't get asked countless questions and I'm comfortable with it because I don't feel that it objectifies me (and have not gotten that reaction from others, either).
I apologize, Mark, but it is very, very difficult to explain to someone who doesn't have the same (religious) background. The other factors are very difficult to explain to someone who doesn't have the same... well, background background lol
You got there in the end I see. I have seen this word used quite a bit recently by religious folks so I just wondered. The actual meaning is "become aware of one's sin or guilt," so I wasn't sure what you were getting at.
I am familiar with some of the "hidden," open signals used by certain sub/dom groups, although I don't recall them using head coverings. One of my pals ran a sizable community of people who liked to play those games - I was always being pestered by the girls to join, but it was not my thing.
So - why not just say "I decided to" instead of implying some divine intervention if what you really meant was you wanted to show your "being owned" by some one?
Of course - I wear a wedding ring for the same reason - because my wife told me to.
I know that the word is used that way but I also am aware that some individuals (and groups) have used the word alternatively. The head covering isn't a "sin" thing, so perhaps the use of the word is incorrect?
However, more than anything this was impressed upon me that I should do this. Was it a decision? Yes, of course it was. But it was impressed upon me before I decided to do it. My church doesn't practice head covering and my husband "isn't into it" so it wasn't human influence (except my own).
Honestly, it's really difficult to explain. Perhaps easier to explain to you as an atheist than it is to many Christians (particularly women -- kind of like your original post that led to here, right?).
Head covering isn't a familiar form of denoting ownership lol
However, it is the reason that the Bible tells women to cover their heads (as a "mark of authority on their heads). In a way, I combined two precepts. Collars were beginning to chafe and cuffs are simply too conspicuous.
Am I such an oddball? Strange this "coming out" when I'm so out locally anyway. I fully expect to have everybody jump on me and say that it's "sinful" or "lust" or some such. But hey, I don't judge everybody here for their choices and prefer not to be judged for mine. Sheesh lol Justifying myself!
EM, you said in your OP, which by the way I didn't think it would point straigh to me so I didn't read it until now,:
The argument you make regarding the head covering being the hair is quite compelling. Where I get caught with this particular interpretation of the scripture is that conversely would 1 Corinthians 11 mean that men should all wear their hair shaven? Personally, I'm not sure.
One, why would it be the opposite for men? It didn't say the opposite for men, did it? I think it was menat across the board, meaning men and women, but somehow got mis construed in the tranalstions and original writing of someo else transcriptions.
Two, I never said that you shouldn't do what you like, but Mark brought it up that you should do as he Bible says--all of it and not just some of the ones that you or I like.
Three, I believe the goodness in Jesus and not entirely on MAN's writting. If that means that you Christians insist on pointing out that *I* do not like the Bible, which is false, I just read it differently. Go ahead and do what the frig you want, but stop insinnuating that just becasue I have a different interpretation of the same book does not mean that I am NOT Christian. I follow Jesus Christ, not doctirne or MAN"S work and control mechanisms.
I am sorry if some of you will take that this is anger, and maybe it is because I am tired of the rhetoric and name calling and crap that goes along with the church and it's doctrines and the way others tell people how they are supposed to experience Jesus and God and that thei way is the only way, when it clearly is NOT. God or the Energy is all in all of us and around us and in everything and that is in the Bible and at least that was not descriminatory like the rest of it is--especially the NT. You may ask questions of the Bible and it's verses but from other Biblicalpersons and believe that it is only to be from the Bible, but it is also said in that Bible that things are not to be taken from just the Book, Jesus didn't use a book at all and he didn't like the Clergy of that time and I doubt very much he would like them today. It isn't about keeping it to yorself or telling oterhs about how they interpret things and it has to be their way, It is for all becasu it is in all. Don't beleive me--then ask yourself. The Kingdom is not in a church or synagogue or temple, but in YOURSELF.
GOD is not a person and it will never be. It is an energy that we all have and it is in everything around us. We can do no wrong with it or against it. It is all love and choices and there are repercussions of those choices Nothing is evil or good. Everything is for the good. These lives we have are by our own choosing and this earth is our school for learning about ourselves through others. LOVE Each Other Always
Translations certainly do complicate things: however, 1 Corinthians 11 does say that men should not pray or prophecy with their heads covered. So if one takes a literal look at the Bible and follows what it says, it is opposite for men and for women. Honestly, I don't know why, but I don't feel that I have to know everything in order to believe.
I didn't think that you had, though I get that argument quite frequently. There are those in the Christian community who believe that one should follow modern philosophy rather than early Christian theology and there are militants on either side of the aisle. Like you, I also become frustrated at the whole at times, and in forums it is often difficult to interpret the source of the problem or the anger.
It bothers me to think that there are those who believe that one cannot be a Christian if they don't believe in exactly the same way as others do. I have fought with this concept myself time and time again and have finally decided to simply leave it alone. It's not something I'm ever going to fully understand or figure out and I don't know that I want to. I don't pretend to know the mind of God and I would prefer to allow Him to work in my life than to try to manipulate who and what God is in order to meet my own ends.
I believe as I do due to conviction (in the sense Mark stated) and others believe as they do for their own reasons. Belief is intensely personal and individual and that is a large part of the reason why people argue so much about it: when one challenges the belief of another, they are challenging not just what someone is, but also who they are.
Men do wear head covering in temples and synogogues, didn't you realize this. They do it in prayer--it is a Jewish tradition. So, no men are not exempt from the practice you speak of.
Where did Jesus say The Kingdom of God is?
Where did Jesus say that the Law is?
I do believe but like you and others they think that I don't. Belief in God (as the source and whole of us and all around us) and Jesus, not Scriptures or Man and books. There is a difference and sad that most of those who are in the church do not get that concept.
I am beginning to feel that you are attempting to pick a fight by putting words in my mouth... I do not presume to know what you do or do not believe, LG. It isn't my place to do so. Nor am I preaching to you or anyone else here. I am simply sharing what I believe just as it is your right to share what you believe.
My intention with this thread wasn't to challenge you, but to answer a statement that you made in another thread. I'm sorry if that has bothered you for some reason, because that was not my intention. If I have personally put you on the defensive, than I apologize, but I repeat (again) that it was not in any way my intention.
SweetiePie, I consider myself highly conservative, but when it comes to churches I would rather retain my freedom to decide what works best for me. Does that make sense? I don't like being dictated to, but prefer to have some choice left to me to choose that thing which brings me closer to God
Just to chime in I went to college with a few women that were Muslim, but they opted to wear the headscarf by choice. Yes there may be some religious expectations for this, but in the West and many Middle Eastern countries women actually have a choice about wearing the headscarf or hijab. Many actually feel more secure and safer wearing it, which is surprising to women of other faiths who think they are being oppressed.
Some Muslim women actually hate wearing the hijab, and many are surprised to learn a large number of them are consmopolitan women living in Tehran,Iran. I hope each woman is able to make the choice for herself, but unfortunately cultural and national expectations can make the decision for some women. On the other hand, I think it is wrong that the French public school systems has forebade women from wearing the hijab to class if that is their wish. Some Muslim women have even been denied a civil wearing unless they removed their hijab, but women wearing wedding veils were allowed to do so.
As for Christian women wearing head coverings in church, most of the people I know that are church going to do not take those scriptures that literally. However, I have mostly only attended non-denominational churches, and Protestant denominations where you would not see parishoners wearing anything on their head, unless they wanted too . Even the few Catholic masses I have been to people were actually dressed very casual, with many wearing jeans, shorts, or sundresses.
They haven't forbidden the hijab, as I understand it, they've banned all religious stuff in schools.
Turkey, on the other hand, has specifically had a ban on muslim women's head gear in schools, universities, and government offices for ages.
Yes I understand that Turkey (history major) has banned the wearing the hijab for years, but France prides itself on being forward thinking, and not allowing girls to wear it to school is not right to me. Also, some Muslim women have not been allowed to wear the hijab if they want to obtain a civil union. I have done extensive research on this, so I do know what I am talking about.
Honestly I think it is ridiculous for a country to ban all religious jewelry and headgear. American schools with a uniforms often allow students to wear hijabs or crosses.
That's how it is in modern times, SweetiePie. Even when I was growing up Catholic the women dressed casually and didn't cover their heads.
We attend a non-denominational church and for me, this isn't something that has been pressed upon me by religion, but something that has been impressed upon me by faith (I see a difference). I wear a scarf fairly inconspicuously and don't get a lot of questions or odd glances.
Our church is also fairly liberal in terms of the way it treats the scriptures, but I still love it there. Odd fit, but a fit nevertheless
BTW, the more one researches Hijab, the more one understands that for most Muslim women it is a free will choice.
I think you are swallowing the propaganda a little too much here. It is a "free choice" in the same way me wearing trousers into church is. I have been thrown out of church fr dressing inappropriately.
I live with a very large Muslim community on my doorstep - and the way the men look at my wife has caused more than one ruction. The more one researches the indoctrination used by the churches to get what they want - the more one realizes that there is very little personal choice involved.
I have wondered, Mark. One reads and hears and reads some more about how much this is free will (and hears it from the women, too) but there are always two sides to every coin.
Now do you have any similar stories of somewhere other than Saudi?
Of course - you surely are not this naive though?
You were "convicted," Muslim women "choose" and I "choose" to wear clothes when I leave the house. Free will. No pressure involved. Sooner or later, you must realize that religion = politics and obedience.
I have an example: I once knew a woman who became a foster mother to girls. There was a 13-year-old girl who was removed from a foster home because the people were "religious" ("extreme" Baptists). The young girl was expected to wear long dresses and cover up, and was told the whole thing about vanity, etc. etc. She and her siblings were left in the foster home until the youn girl's 15-year-old sister had a baby by the foster father. The kids were in the foster home because their own father and grandfather had abused them. When the 13-year-old got to her foster home it was as if she had hatched out of an egg. She didn't know how to dress or act, and she didn't know things about normal, day-to-day, living. It took months before she let her beautiful, gold, curly, hair just hang out loose. It took months for her to stop thinking that everyone she was running into was a "sinner" and "evil".
When this little girl finally started to wear "regular" clothes (certainly nothing "hooker-y" looking by any means) and let her pretty hair just be loose she started to act like a kid for once in her life. When I'd see the sunlight make her beautiful gold hair sparkle, to me, it just seemed as if it was an example of how Nature (God, if you will) builds beauty into everything/everyone in this world. We don't cover sunsets or oceans or strikingly beautiful wildlife. I don't believe the natural beauty of a young woman's hair and face should be covered up either. (Not arguing with you, and not trying to convince you of anything - just trying to point out another way some people see things.)
Actually I am fully cognizant that is how it is in modern times, which is why I was sharing. Anything liberal sounds good to me, but I am not a very conservative gal myself . I say it is more important people feel comfortable coming to worship than not come at all. My background is in history, plus I have an interest in Middle East literature. The desire to wear the hijab varies from regiion to region. Women in freer Middle Eastern countries actually feel compelled to wear it because it is their choice. Women in Tehran, Iran tend to be more adamant against because often it has been imposed on them due to the Islamic Revolution of 1979.
That makes sense everyday miracles, and you are free to do as you like. However, I really was not commenting on what you felt, but sharing how I did. Also, I do not think Lady G is trying to argue with you, but I think she is just sharing her perspective.
Thank you, SweetiePie. I always say that the text medium is really lousy for figuring out what people are really trying to say. I don't want to think that someone is trying to have an argument (because that contributed highly to why I didn't come on the forums for quite some time). I try very hard to be diplomatic.
BTW, throwing in "does that makes sense" was an attempt to soften what I was saying to everyone who might be reading, not necessarily at you. I appreciate people sharing the way that they feel about things. I don't know about others, but that's how I learn
Thank you Sweetiepie. I have also noticed that when I start to ask question (in any forum) it is taken as trying to start and arguement. Now I have tried my best to figure out why this is and the only thing that comes to mind is the "submission" thing that Mark started on his forum post about ladies doing as the Bible states.
Ok, it is time for me to back away for a bit. Chow!!!
It's the whole "can't denote tone from text" thing. I'm really sorry that I misconstrued you. I do that. A lot. And I take the blame.
One thing to watch (not something you have a habit of, but I am sure you won't be the only one to read this) is the use of exclamation points. Those in particular come across as being demanding rather than informative.
Again I apologize for misunderstanding you. I have always liked you and was trying very hard to not misunderstand! Turns out I did anyway!
Sometimes the forums can be confrontational, and some days I stay out. However, I think you should feel free to share and participate as you wish.
Reading your perspective on this is really interesting, EM. Thanks for sharing.
I agree with Sweetie Pie - I have nothing but respect for women such as yourself who freely choose to wear head coverings due to their own convictions, but it really bothers me deeply when you have places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia where women can literally be beaten if they are not wearing one, or even if a single lock of hair escapes from underneath the covering. That's not true faith or personal conviction, just fear, and it's sick, imho.
Kerry, it isn't just in the Middle East that things of that nature happen, though often in the Western world it isn't so graphically violent as it can be in the Middle East. Some Christian sects are just as vehement about the wearing of a covering as Islam is.
I have respect for people of all faiths and I have respect for all faiths. I can't say that I understand everything, but that doesn't stop me from exploring and wanting to learn and understand more. I've chosen the path I want to be on and I don't see that changing, but it's always interesting to me.
I listened to a story recently of a mother who had a hit man after her son because he turned away from Islam. This took place in Canada. So it isn't just women and it isn't just in the Middle East. I've heard (lesser) stories about Jewish families and extremely conservative Christian families acting out against those who choose a different path as well. My father hates to be reminded that I'm not Catholic and it has become a bit family "issue." He wouldn't kill me, of course, but he hates that I'm protestant!
True enough. We're not in Amish country or anything really distinctive, but you can still recognize a lot of the most religious families around here because the women and girls always have long braids and loose dresses and the men and boys are always in some combo of jeans and long-sleeved shirts.
I always feel a bit sad for them. You know for most of the adults it is a personal choice, but I knew some tomboys when I was homeschooled who were always getting stuck in dresses and made to sew and clean up after their brothers and it just really wasn't a good situation for them. It's one thing to say these skills are important, you know, and another to keep them from learning any others on the grounds that it was somehow "ungodly" for a girl to be interested in them. I've lost contact now - I hope they managed to get free to be who they really were without tumbling too far in the opposite direction.
I find it ironic: If you read Proverbs 31 it talks about a woman making a living for her family and doing chores that might be considered "man's jobs." Nothing wrong with being a tomboy. I believe that there is something in the Bible about a woman not wearing mens clothing but this is really quite subjective. I wear jeans, but they are cut for a woman. Are these mens clothes or womens? You see what I'm saying.
What is most remarkable to me is that these communities are almost invariably anabaptist communities. The entire reason for the existence of the anabaptist movement was for individuals to be allowed to make the choice of faith (to be baptized) and yet the youngsters in many of these communities are being forced to follow the faith practices of their parents.
I don't understand it, personally. I am a literalist but I don't consider myself a legalist. The Bible tells us that we are saved by grace, not by our works. I don't believe that I have to wear this scarf in order to gain entrance into heaven. There are those who *do* believe that, though, so I suppose that's why they force their children into dresses and scarves.
My daughter wears a lot of dresses right now mostly for my convenience. We're potty training
Lol, smart! I let mine run around completely naked for the same reason. Made the whole process a breeze!
I do that sometimes too! LOL! Depends on where we are (home or public). She's still quite young to be beginning the process though... And our house is kind of chilly for June!
When I asked my mother about the right time for potty training, she said, "summer time"
I wouldn't wear men's jeans - too loose at the waist and tight around the hips!
Mark has gone now, he must not know much about potty training, or maybe he will tell, he knows lots about it????
Boy, now if somebody has some advice about that, that would be great!
She's 18 months.
She's been telling us for a couple of weeks when she's peed or pooped (she says "I peed" or "I pooped" or sometimes just "diaper") and is consistent with the times she goes. She's also not wet after a nap and sometimes not even in the mornings!
Pretty bright, and I see signs of readiness...
My goal isn't to push, just to introduce her to the concepts and see how she goes from there
yeah they say dont worry about potty training too much until they are two now dont they. Apparantly we have lots of our hang ups because of our toilet training..... my mum says everyone forced there kids out of nappies, as it was too much washing when they had a few children, no pampers then..... there's another issue, disposable nappies, or not so disposable apparantly
This I will say - when driving in the Gulf States, it is wise to give a very wide berth to female drivers wholly covered in black cloth, peering through a narrow slit in said cloth, often with glasses worn on the outside, and hurtling along at 120 kph plus.
Somehow this thread reminded me of one of Bertrand Russell's gems:
"I am sometimes shocked by the blasphemies of those who think themselves pious-for instance, the nuns who never take a bath without wearing a bathrobe all the time. When asked why, since no man can see them, they reply: "Oh, but you forget the good God." Apparently they conceive of the Deity as a Peeping Tom, whose omnipotence enables Him to see through bathroom walls, but who is foiled by bathrobes. This view strikes me as curious".
EM, I saw your post before you deleted it!
I am not offended in any way., I was only trying to understand where you are coming from. If that means asking questions and using punctuation points to get my point noticed that is the way that I write and speak. But I think this is more than just grammar, because you got upset when I pointed out that men wear head dresses too in some other religious sects. I also asked a few questions about where God is and the kingdom and where Jesus said the laws were. So be it. Don't answer them. It's not against me. I know what it says.
As far as not responding, you already opened the door to that with your thoughts. That is fine. I will no longer bother you or anyone on this forum thread.
Just remember you brought it out from Mark's thread because I stated something about head dresses to you there. I never would have guessed that you would call me on it on a separate thread and then tell me that I am argumentative.
Have a nice discusssion on your thread.
First of all, I owe you an apology for being so sensitive and proud. For the past two days I've been having a "discussion" with a friend that has set me on edge and has made me feel continually judged. We weren't reaching resolution and I think it has come out by making me more sensitive than I normally am (and I'm normally pretty sensitive to begin with).
Please understand that I am not a biblical scholar. I don't know everything and I don't claim to. I don't have all of the answers. Although I don't mind being challenged to find them, I didn't feel as though that was what you were doing: I felt as though you expected me to know the answers to your questions (really your points) without having to do any research.
And frankly, I didn't know how to respond. I felt like you had made a point and weren't asking a question. I may have misinterpreted what your intentions were though. I wish there was an easy way to make things more clear.
One thing that has come up in this "argument" with my friend is the fact that I am not the most articulate of people. I am always told how well I explain things and articulate things and often wind up getting asked questions that I cannot answer as a result. I am not the writer many people think I am. At least not when I'm directly communicating with someone.
I hope that you do understand that when I was referring to the punctuation I didn't mean you specifically, but posters in general. I understand about getting a point across. But there is a difference between this!!! and! this! It's kind of like typing an entire (often lengthy) post in all caps. You don't do it, but there are some here I find myself avoiding who do. You opened a door and I took the opportunity to express some frustration.
I think that the reason I felt that you were arguing with me earlier is that you speak in absolutes. You aren't the only person who does that here, but you are one of the very few that I *like* who does that here Or at least one of the few non-atheists who I like who does that. I felt, to a degree, as though you stuck your foot out in front of me and tripped me up. I understand that it wasn't deliberate, but you will hopefully forgive me for being confused.
No worries -- I'm not offended either. You're just the second person to get in the way of my being confused and frustrated today! I apologize!
My parents were "equal opportunity" encouragers as well, and that was before the Women's Movement came into full swing. They both had a big thing about raising capable, independent, people.
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