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Nigerian Child Witches and the Church. This almost made me sick.

  1. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    It's going to be hard for me to write objectively about this, but I'll try.

    I've recently seen a documentary about the child witches in Nigeria.

    I think it's just about the most terrifying and horrendous  thing I've ever seen.

    The diagnosis and labelling of a child as a witch is pretty simple.

    If a family member gets sick, or something goes wrong in their lives, it's because the youngest member of the family is a witch.

    These young children are then ostracised, burnt, maimed, killed, and/or banished. One "religious person" takes pride in boasting on camera how he has personally killed over 100 child witches.

    According to the documentary, the main instigator in this frenzy of child witchcraft is Helen Ukpabio, founder of the Liberty Foundation Gospel Ministries. See http://helen-ukpabio.com/
    Her mission as stated on her website is to:
    help liberate mankind from every yoke and bondage of the enemy through teaching of God’s word in a clear and direct way and exposing the works of the devil and his deceptions in these last days.

    One of the ways she does this is to sells a video called "End of the Wicked" which has generated much of the hysteria about child witches.

    I understand that Nigeria has one of the highest concentrations of churches per head of population in the world. Obviously, some of these churches condone and support these type of actions.

    My question is HOW. And WHY.

    Maybe some of the religious philosophers who frequent this forum would be kind enough to tell us more about this practice, and explain how supposedly religious people can do something like this to children.

    Article from the guardian:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/de … heobserver

    More Info:
    http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/node/18

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The simple answer is - irrational beliefs produce irrational behavior.

      As usual, christianity has absorbed some of the previous belief system to insert itself as the dominant religion. This is no different to burning people at the stake and it was not so long ago witches were being murdered in Europe and the US. In fact - if you think about it, it is only the last third of it's existence that christianity in western countries has stopped this practice. The last witch in Europe to be executed was in 1782.

      http://www.bede.org.uk/decline.htm

      A woman in Saudi was condemned to death for witchcraft
      in 2006 -

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7244579.stm

      I do not know the outcome of the appeal.

      I don't know whether this is true or faked as fiery seems to think, but I do notice the usual religious crowd has not stepped in to say anything. Except the troll who is attempting to divert the conversation away from the matter at hand.

      The moment you have a god giving you instructions into your head is the moment you are free to behave like this.

      It always happens. It always will happen - all the time there is power and control to be had over ignorant people.

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        And the truly ignorant people are always sure that sort of statement is about everyone ELSE...

    2. frogdropping profile image84
      frogdroppingposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Eric - I'm sticking with your original questions.

      How? - because they can. Some people are born to commit evil. Many do it covertly. Some are caught at a later date. Others go undetected. Then there are those that do it openly, such as these people. They use an age old chestnut as an excuse. And the ignorance of others to validate their behaviour.

      Why? Because they want to.

    3. Davinagirl3 profile image61
      Davinagirl3posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      How could this be?  It makes me feel helpless and small.

      1. ledefensetech profile image81
        ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        In short, it's because there are people int his world who believe that they have the right to as they please and twist what should be a force for right action into evil.

    4. soni2006 profile image45
      soni2006posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think this so-called religious person should not be killed but should be tortured 1000 or more times in the same way he has done that and all the tortures should be shown on live camera. I feel really shameful that I am a human being.

  2. Mighty Mom profile image90
    Mighty Momposted 7 years ago

    Gosh, Eric. This is horrifying. I checked out the links you provided and shook my head in disbelief. Is this 1600s Salem?

    Obviously, the combination of ignorance and religion (especially so-called evangelical) is as volatile and toxic as ever.

    Would you consider writing a hub about this? I think you would get more widespread readership -- and this topic deserves that. MM

  3. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Typical fanatical thinking from the religiously  loony. The pain and suffering caused by fundamentalists like this are sickening.
    This is a horrible story, but one that needed telling. Thanks Eric.

  4. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 7 years ago

    Sad.

  5. Zsuzsy Bee profile image85
    Zsuzsy Beeposted 7 years ago

    Eric this is awful. How is it possible that adults can behave in such an idiotic way. The children are the innocents for crying out loud. Yes MM is right, you need to do a hub about this so this nonsense can be stopped.

    Thank for sharing even though it is very disturbing.
    zs

    1. Eric Graudins profile image61
      Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That's what I'm hoping that the enlightened folk in this religious forum can answer.

      And no, I won't do a hub on this. So if you or  Mighty Mom want to do one - go for it.
      Cheers, Eric G.

      @Misha.
      I find it sad that the only thing you can say is "Sad".

      1. Misha profile image75
        Mishaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        They used to eat children in my country at some point. Not long ago, less than a hundred years. So I am sort of trained myself to think of such matters without fainting...

  6. ledefensetech profile image81
    ledefensetechposted 7 years ago

    The problem is not so much religion per se, but a belief in the supernatural.  Religion at times has lent itself to spreading a belief in the supernatural, mostly during the religious wars in Europe in the 1800's but in that case I think you can trace the lineage back to the Black Death. 

    The reason I say that is a belief in the supernatural does not require religion.  After the Civil War in the US, seances and a belief in spirits pervaded the US.  Most of this was due to the virtual annihilation of a generation of kids during the War.

    We can, however, go further back and see other instances of an increased belief in the supernatural.  Christianity itself owes its rise to prominence due to the Romans questioning their place in the world as the Empire declined.  So that gives us a possible answer as to why people believe in supernatural powers.

    It would seem that as people are affected by forces they don't understand, decadence in the case of the Romans, plague in the case of Europeans, mass death due to war for the Americans; that people will embrace a supernatural solution to their problems.  Come to think of it, supernaturalism got a boost after the Great War and World War II. 

    Now what could be so mysterious in Africa that could cause an uptick in the belief of witches, spells and supernatural powers?  My belief is the AIDS virus.  There are so many misconceptions about the disease and literacy and education in Africa is so hit and miss that we have an ideal breeding ground for the belief in black magic, witches and the casting of evil spells.  Religion can fan the flames, but the root cause is not understanding what is happening to your world.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That sounds like religion to me. It seems religions believe that their god is here now supporting them in the world in every way, but the death of those too young to be guilty of any thing is ignored.Religion in not questioning this are guilty of perpetrating this nonsense even today. Instead of evangelising in Africa they would be better employed educating the African's about disease and it's causes.

      1. ledefensetech profile image81
        ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You have such a hate on for religion that you don't understand that a belief in superstition and the supernatural crosses every human culture both in the past and in contemporary culture.  It's not like people haven't tried to educate Africans, but developmentally they're where Europe was 600 years ago.  They don't even have the philosophical underpinning in the rural areas to get people used to the idea that technology isn't magic, much less have them believe in things they can't see like bacteria and viruses. To them it's all magic.  Hell even in Mexico they still believe in curanderos and brujas.  Ever been to New Orleans?  Neither have I but I had a really good friend who was and he was one of the most superstitious people I'd ever met.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Yes I have been to New Orleans, and I do understand the ignorance in Africa.Religion IS superstition.

          1. ledefensetech profile image81
            ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            How do you reconcile that with Deism?  They see the Creator as a master craftsman who started the universe and now watches from the outside.  Nothing supernatural about that.  In fact under a Deist belief system, there is no room for the supernatural.

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              This is true, but a rare exception in my opinion.

              1. ledefensetech profile image81
                ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Rare exception nothing.  How do you explain Zen, or Confucianism or Taoism for that matter.  You're being intellectually dishonest because you have an ax to grind.  Even several flavors of Hinduism eschew a belief in "God" or superstition.  It just doesn't fit into your religion is evil mindset, so you ignore it.

                1. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Bullshit! Almost all the mainstream religions are based on superstitious nonsense, and many of the beliefs of the lesser religions are baseless rubbish as well, it is you who is being dishonest.

                  1. ledefensetech profile image81
                    ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    You explained nothing, you just interjected a curse and said something was baseless without proving it.  Intellectual dishonesty.

                2. tksensei profile image59
                  tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Confucianism is a philosophy much more than a 'religion' as concieved in Western tradition. There's all manner of gods that are part of the taoist tradition. Zen as well. What complicates matters is the fact that so many (who go out of their way to pose as 'intellectuals') in the West cannot concieve of God outside the 'Big Man with a Beard Sitting on a Cloud' children's book image, and cannot concieve of 'religion' outside the 'Place I go once a Week' form.

                  1. ledefensetech profile image81
                    ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Yeah, but my point was that both philosophy and religion concern themselves with humanity and our place in creation.  In reality Confucianism is much more a way to order society than a philosophy really, that is after all what Confucian scholarship is concerned with, society and how people act towards one another and how they interact with authority.  Come to think of it, the Ten Commandments serve the same purpose to the Judeo-Christian belief systems as Confucianism does to the Chinese.  See Earnest, religion and philosophy aren't all that much different.

        2. Jewels profile image81
          Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          A belief in God is supernatural.  It's what man does with the supernatural knowledge that's the issue.  Ignorance and pompous belief is dangerous.

          1. ledefensetech profile image81
            ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            That's not entirely true.  You can believe there is a God and that he created the universe according to laws and allows creation to unfold according to those laws.  See no belief in the supernatural.

            1. Jewels profile image81
              Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              There are those that see for themselves and have the ability to experience, and those that blindly believe in dogma and have no ability to try and see.  Those that do see (supernatural beings for example) then have a responsibility to do no harm.

              It matters ziltch if a person believes in a God, God, Jesus etc., it is how a person acts that's important.  Belief in God can become irrelevant.  But lets say there is a God, fine, no problem with that.  What's the point in believing and having all this damn knowledge if people have no idea how to be descent human beings.  It's all mayonnaise don't you think?  Quite irrelevant to say I believe in God.  Who cares what you believe.  Who cares what I believe.  Sounds very intellectual when people can rattle off who fits in what section of society, nicely structured way of approaching life if you have a category or an ism after your name.  But does it make a person a better human being?

              1. ledefensetech profile image81
                ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                It takes study and hard work to attempt to understand our world and our place in it.  But as you say many people opt for the easy answers or the easy way out.  You'll get no argument from me that our actions are what count.  The worst evil to come out of Calvinist doctrine was the belief in an elect. 

                Anyway, it's study and an open mind that teach us the best ways to relate to one another.  Sure each religion or philosophy has it's own names and definitions, but when you strip most of that away you see there is an underlying theme to all of them and it's those themes that teach us how to be better people.  Those themes are consonant with natural law.  It's those things which are common to all religions that show us the way.  Not a particular branch or dogma, not what's different about them, but what they have in common.

                1. Jewels profile image81
                  Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Would be great if we could see our similarities instead of differences, it doesn't seem to come through very well.
                  My own influence is from a set of teachings that does take what has worked from many traditions and instead of being told 'believe them', my teacher says take what works and through your own experiences you will then see what works.  This is what I mean by seeing.  It's through experience, and as you've said, knowing through intelligent knowledge helps.  But being able to experience is paramount.  Philosophy I believe was derived from experience wasn't it?  To see is to know, to know is to see, to see is to experience.  This religious knowledge is only worth something when it is applied to your own life.  Otherwise it's just words on paper.  Evangelicals are good with words on paper.

    2. Capable Woman profile image80
      Capable Womanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Extremely cogent response, ledefensetech. Well considered and I think you're on to something.

      I am a student of history in general and religion's effects on history in particular. I agree with your assessment in regards to Aids and I also think the 37 coups that have occurred in west African countries in the last 150 years also play into the environment of instability and fear that creates such superstitions.

      In 1856 Alan Moorehead wrote a an account of British explorer Sir Richard Francis Burton's experiences in Africa called "The White Nile". Burton had this to say about Africans: “They were cursed by an external suspicion combined with superstition and a mullish opposition to change, a savage conservatism. They were utterly dishonest. When they assert they probably lie, when they swear they certainly lie.”

      While I think this language is bigoted, xenophobic and amounts to a condemnation of a whole people, what Burton was describing was the heart of the matter in regards to much of western Africa's failings.

      1. ledefensetech profile image81
        ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The worst part about Africa today goes back to colonialism.  Out of all the hatreds of the Third World for the First, this one probably is the most justified.  When the colonial powers departed, they split Africa up according to their boundaries, not those of tribes and peoples.  So what you have in many countries is a scramble for power and whoever gets on top oppresses the others.  And so it goes.  Yet now with an insistence on "nations" Africa will remain a continent of "schizophrenic" nations until and unless the tribes a) decide to live in peace or b)are allowed to set their own borders with the ability to live life as they see fit.

        1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
          Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          b.)  You mean how Christians want them to see fit.

          1. ledefensetech profile image81
            ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No, LG, what I mean is that the people who live there must have the ability to choose for themselves how they wish to live.

            1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
              Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Do you really, truly think that will happen with all the missionaries around the world and those who are hardpressing to convert others and that they MUST be Saved and then put fear into them if they do not conform to those thoughts?

              1. ledefensetech profile image81
                ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Do you really believe you can force someone to believe something?  I feel sorry for you if you hold humanity in such contempt that you see them all as mindless drones.  True there are those that will fall for anything, but that doesn't describe many or even most people.

  7. Randy Godwin profile image94
    Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago

    The belief in family members being witches is not new to this area.  During Shaka Zulu's time it was quite common amongst many tribes of Africa.  The only reason I know this is because of a recent re-reading of "The Covenant" by James Michner.

  8. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    Thanks ledefensetech and Earnest.

    Yes, this practice is obviously based on superstition and the supernatural.

    It's probably naive for me to think that this post could be kept on topic, but I hope that someone will provide an answer to my question of why it is supported - indeed led - by religious people.

    1. ledefensetech profile image81
      ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Religion, for the most part, deals with the unprovable.  If there is a creative force, whatever you want to call it, it must exist outside of creation.  That being said, since we ourselves exist within creation and cannot currently prove what, if anything, exists outside of creation there is a lot of speculation going on. 

      It's kind of like the people who claimed to have translated Egyptian hieroglyphics prior to the Rosetta stone being found.  People could and did claim all sorts of nonsense because without proof of what the language really said, you could make anything up.  But that's only part of the puzzle.  Much of early Christianity and other religions as well have, during their periods of growth, adopted and adapted their beliefs to match those of the indigenous people they were trying to convert.  While Christianity is the most famous, examples litter the historical record.  Buddhism moving into China for instance or moving from China to Japan.  A more familiar example to Western historians might be the cult of Mithras or other mystery religions that changed character as they moved through the Roman Empire. 

      Also it's because people tend to look up to those who claim to have a connection to a higher power or an understanding of mystical mysteries.  From witch doctors to priests, imams and hermit-philosophers, there has always been something compelling about those who claim to "see beyond".  I suppose that's one of the reasons I'm a deist at heart, you invalidate most of that nonsense at a root level.

      1. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not sure how being a deist helps - surely that word only means you believe in one God?  Christians and Muslims are deist too, but it hasn't stopped them developing a priestly caste who set themselves above others.

        1. ledefensetech profile image81
          ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          A deist believes that the universe was created by God, but that God takes no hand in the day to day affairs of the universe.  Universal laws were set, and any species which can think has the opportunity to discover and live by those laws.  It's a very "science-friendly" way of reconciling faith and reason.

          Earnest, arguing about numbers is really a fallacy in your view.  The Chinese are said to be Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist at the same time.  So there's a billion of them right there.  Is that not enough to be considered "major" religions?  You don't want to argue with me because you can't conceive that you might be incorrect or that you really are letting your anger get the better of you.

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Hardly a Billion, most Chinese do not believe in religion.

            1. ledefensetech profile image81
              ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Please, just because they're nominally Communist.  Chinese are Chinese no matter who sits atop the Dragon Throne.  If they really were atheist, they'd destroy all of those opiate houses of the people and follow the One True Path of Communism.

              1. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I was married to a Chinese woman for 7 years, and I can assure you that  they are mostly non religious. China although having a history in religion, general are not religious, and to say their are about a Billion believers is rubbish.We have Chinese of all religions but they are fractional.

                1. ledefensetech profile image81
                  ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Funny, I've known quite a few Chinese students from back in my college days and they'd admit to atheism as an "official" stance but privately, like many Russians concerning Eastern Orthodoxy, I'd imagine, they still believe in traditional belief systems of their homeland.  Or are you upset that many Chinese are converting to Christianity.  You argue atheism till you're blue in the face, but there is something about being human that cries out to believe in something, something to have faith in.

                  1. earnestshub profile image88
                    earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes it is called religiosity of soul. Carl Jung wrote a whole lot about it. If humans are without religion they feel something is missing. The human condition is no condition to be in, but we are all in it. Religious  belief makes no difference to "good" behavior or any other improvements in the way people treat each other. Fear of death is the motivator.

                2. tksensei profile image59
                  tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  You are thinking of 'religious' from a Western perspective.

                  1. earnestshub profile image88
                    earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I was speaking of the Chinese, and can assure you they are mostly not religious.

    2. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Does it come down to how malleable the mind is?  Curses and superstitions are influenced by thoughts.  Once someone believes they have been cursed, the effects can be catastrophic and it's proven that it doesn't take long for the mind belief to turn into a physical manifestation of what was cursed - usually illness.  One way to avoid the full blown manifestation of the curse is to 'do what you have been told.'  Religious dogma is entwined with the 'do as you are told.'  The consequences of course are you will go to hell.  To those who have been 'cursed' and are obeying the one who cursed, is of course not able to have freewill.  Or if they do chose to have freewill they will be damned to hell for not following the rules.

      This is a simplistic explanation but it doesn't have to get much more complicated to understand the mechanisms.  People will believe anything in order to get to heaven or nirvana or feel good or be in favor with the charismatic leader. 

      A dangerous dark mind is what's required to make another person believe that someone else is the cause of their malaise. Levels of course.   The woman behind these rituals is a twisted sick person.  The ones who believe her are unintelligent fools.  The children are innocent vulnerable victims.  And we who do nothing about it are audience members allowing it to keep happening, which makes us fools as well.

      It's quite irrelevant to believe in superstition, to believe in metaphysical entities.  It's the harm caused to another being in the name of that belief that is the issue.  Whether you are Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or a Witch makes no bloody difference.  But the harming of innocent children for the sake of your belief is abhorrent.

    3. Ana Louis profile image84
      Ana Louisposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I unerstand why you ask the question, but I'm not sure there is an answer that is going to satisfy you. In my long quest for truth, I have decided that "religion" has very little to do with God, and everything to do with the person that needs an excuse to be self-righteous.  Whatever a person believes is true, there is a religion to back-up that belief.

      People who commit or condone such horrific acts in the name of religion do not represent God, they only represent a "religion" which are a dime-a-dozen.  I'm sure religious people think that they are doing good in the world and are pleasing God...they would need justification.  Look at the sick and violent acts carried out everyday by religous terriorist.

      Why? The answer goes to the very heart of man, because that is where every act originates.  That is where a persons truth finds a home. So just because a person is "religious" does not mean that person is a good person, a loving person, a forgiving person, a just person,...

      As I said I'm not sure there is an answer - except that the word  "religious" is too big a brush, and it tends to paint every person who believes in God the same color. And we are not.

      Isn't there a saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  How arrogant we are to assume a superior understanding because of who we are.

      Sorry, I'm afraid I haven't helped...just ranted on...it is a pickle of a problem .

      1. Eric Graudins profile image61
        Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Ana Louis.
        This is close to my personal view.

        I have no problem with god.
        It's his fan club I can't stand.

        (Author Unknown)

      2. glendoncaba profile image81
        glendoncabaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Wonderful angle.  Love this.  Great insight.

  9. fierycj profile image84
    fierycjposted 7 years ago

    With all due respect everybody, you guys ought to shut up about stuff you dont know anything about. First of all, I have only word for all this - HOGWASH! I know this Helen Ukpabio you speak of, and this village you speak of, its like six hours from where I am now. Its in Cross River. And I can tell you ABSOlUTELY nothing of the sort occurs! What do you people even take Africa for? A place full of blood-drinking and flesh devouring cannibals swinging on trees like frigging Tarzan or something. There're governments in my country, the rule of law for pete's sake - to even believe that such a thing can occur in these times is laughable. The video you speak of by Helen is a damn movie. The woman fancies herself a movie producer of some sort, and even stars in her own movies. Terrible actress too. She's an Evangelist, who says she was a former witch of the occult, so has been delivered by Christ to expose the world of witchcraft. That's it. This is just another smeer campaign on Nigeria. When will this ever stop, for heaven's sake! Maybe it wont, but till then pls refrain from opening your mouth about stuff you dont have hard facts about. I live there you know. I outta know the real deal. I've said my piece.

    1. 0
      Leta Sposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That has something of a ring of truth to it fiery...  One of the reasons I think so is that there was a similar debate on Hubpages going on about some issue based here in AZ.  They had the peripherals right, but were so far off the truth it was laughable, really, to anyone who lives here.  I'd need to check a few sources before I form an opinion.

    2. Eric Graudins profile image61
      Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks you for your post fierycj. It's about the only one that is related to the topic of this thread.

      You say that people should shut up about stuff they don't know anything about. Now, I know that you don't REALLY believe that statement, because of the questions YOU ask about things YOU know nothing about.
      Questions are good. Without them, nobody could learn anything.

      I'm glad we've settled that.

      In your post you have pretty well proclaimed yourself to be an expert on the subject of Child witchcraft, and have stated that there is no such thing as children being treated as witches and wizards in Nigeria.

      In that case, can you explain the many images of small African children with broken, deformed, and amputated limbs, burns, terrible scars from acid burns, and other horrendous injuries who are under the protection of welfare groups in Africa.
      How did these injuries occur? Is this the normal way that African parents treat their children?

      Or are all these photographs and videos faked too as part of your claimed conspiracy against Nigeria?

      You have a worldwide audience here fierycj.
      You've stepped up to be Nigeria's spokesman here.
      I hope you're up to it.

      1. fierycj profile image84
        fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not stepping up to be a wuchmacallit - Nigerian spokesman or whatever you wanna call it. My point is simple really. I live there, and trust me I would know if there's even a hint of truth in it. I've been in Cross Rivers a million times. The place is beautiful. A frigging divine picturesque for heaven's sake. You guys will believe anything negative about Africa. Do you believe every picture or image you see on the web or TV. If you saw pictures of burnt up, injured people in some Western Country and they told you a similar story, bet you wouldn't believe a word of it. Gawd, this makes me so sick. Its unbelievable. Not to mention outrageous. Tell you what, i dont have to rely on stupid info from websites to tell me about whats going down in MY OWN COUNTRY! I'm there and I know what the hell I'm talking about.

        1. darkside profile image81
          darksideposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I'm in Australia and I had no idea about the attacks on Indian students.

          But then again I don't have the media agencies and government departments reporting everything to me, which you obviously must have, if you know every single thing that is going down in your own country.

    3. Lady_E profile image82
      Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Fiery, you'll have to pardon me on this comment. Please don’t read me wrong.

      Nigeria is a great Country and I wouldn’t condemn it.

      This programme was aired in the UK months ago. It was a documentary and painful to watch as it showed the scars that had been afflicted on so many kids when they were tortured and these kids were not acting. (Ages 4 upwards)

      See link below: This is a Charity specifically set up for children unjustly accused of being witches and wizards. It was set up in UK and is based in Nigeria, where you are. So you could even give them a call to check the allegations. I’d be interested to know what they say so I can also tell people to stop going on about it too. However,  at the moment that documentary and this Charity have strong facts.

      About the charity
      http://renegadefuturist.com/archives/20 … s-nigeria/

      This article is on the Nigerian Charity Website and confirms it is happening. (Nigerians confirming it)
      http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/files/UN_doc.pdf

      Charity is www.steppingstonesnigeria.org

      Sorry Fiery. Peace Bruv.

      1. fierycj profile image84
        fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Listen Lady E. You've lived in the UK for far too long. You'll believe every damn thing you see. You think like the rest of them. Your brain is hardwired that way. I dont blame you, really. And why do you keep telling me sorry. I know the organization you speak of, and they're a fraud. They make money from portraying Nigeria is this beastly place so Western nations - who love to hear that kinda stuff, will now come and save us from our cannibalistic ways. Be careful unless you'll sell out your heritage. That's all you got left. Now, Lady E. Sorry.

        1. Lady_E profile image82
          Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this


          Wow, temperatures are rising. You are right, I have lived in the UK most of my life and I'll overlook the rest of your comments because your seething right now. Accofranco noted she will be doing some investigating and I would love to know the outcome.  I'm not happy about the stories either but what I'm I supposed to do when its documented so well. (I said sorry, cos I knew what I wrote would upset you).

          All you needed to do was to write a simple comment explaining to me that the Organisation is a Fraud. Wishing you a peaceful evening and hope by tomorrow you are in a calmer spirit. sad

          1. countrywomen profile image61
            countrywomenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Lady_E - I would prefer to wait for Accofranco's response(and who btw is a guy). We were once traveling to Mount Rushmore and an American lady asked me do the Indian girls marry snakes? It just shocked us but then she would believe based on her sources since some stray incident in some village where the local astrologer would say that this girl was born in inauspicious time and would bring bad luck to her in laws(husband) then they do a mock ceremonial wedding to an animal to ward off that jinx. I read Indian newspapers and almost every year some strange news like this happens but out of a billion plus population few strange incidents happen here and there but the news folks like CNN who seldom focus outside US(Thank God we have BBC America for world news) find something like this funny then they relay it over here and the folks here end up believing that most of us are like that. I can understand the frustration of Fierycj when we have been there and see for first hand how it is. Sometimes when people have gaps in there understanding then they tend to complete the picture with there own perceptions which may or may not always be accurate. I have no intention to upset you and hope you don't take my opinion otherwise. smile

            1. Lady_E profile image82
              Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Not at all Countrywoman.  I appreciate your comments and would love to know the truth. Like I wrote, I'm not happy to hear about the situation.
              Kind Regards
              Elena

  10. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    A lot of this misunderstanding stems from differing views of 'religion' and 'religious.'


    I don't think anyone would claim Sima Qian-ism as a religion, but I know I hiked way the hell up a big ass mountain to a temple devoted to him where pilgrims daily went to pray and leave devotions. The concept of religion and religious is not always as clear as 'I go there on Sundays.'

    1. ledefensetech profile image81
      ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well the Chinese have that whole ancestor worship thing.

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Many (most?) peoples do.

        1. ledefensetech profile image81
          ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Sure but Chinese and Southeast Asians take to to a whole new level.  I'm not sure of any other cultures that venerate their ancestors as much as they do.

          1. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Again, all in how you look at it.

    2. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That's very true, religion, religious sects and texts are diverse, no questioning that.

      Did you feel any presence at the top of that big ass mountain?  Except for getting to the top, was it worth it?  This is an aside question, seriously.  I just read a bit about this man.  Seemed he had a phenomenally structured and organized demeanor.

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        To tell you the truth, it was about 98 degrees and I was hung over as hell, so I may not have been in the most spiritual of moods. I will say that anytime I am in the presence or place of something of historical significance I am deeply aware of its importance. Perhaps that is one dimension of spirituality.

        It was absolutely worth the trip.

        1. Jewels profile image81
          Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          That's what I was interested in hearing.  Presences are amazing to feel or tune into, and to me it is a dimension of spirituality.  Temples can be amazing for vision.  Interestingly visiting churches - some leave allot to be desired.  Temples where allot of practices are done are noticeable.  I think it pays not to have a hangover though, you can see more with a clear head lol

          1. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            That is good advice that always comes too late.

  11. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    ledefencetech, Earnest, and tksensei.

    I know that this is a totally alien concept in the religious forums, but do you reckon you guys could go and get a room somewhere to continue your totally off topic conversation cool

    1. ledefensetech profile image81
      ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      We...We...We're getting kicked out?  For the love of (insert deity name here, or don't) why?  lol

      1. Eric Graudins profile image61
        Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't expect that anyone will take a scrap of notice, but hey - I thought it was worth giving it a try lol

    2. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That is probably a good idea Eric, but there has been little said on the original post. Would love to here back from our Nigerian friend.

      1. Eric Graudins profile image61
        Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You've probably intimidated him and scared him off lol

  12. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    Look, I've created a wonderful home for you. lol

    It's a place where you can argue and pontificate to your hearts content, about the minutae of any and every religious topic you can think of.

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/16574

    (But please come back if you'd like to say something about Child witches and Wizards. smile

    1. ledefensetech profile image81
      ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You mean like Harry Potter?  lol  It's been fascinating guys, but I'm going to have to give up these late night chautauquas.  Night everyone.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Goodnight, nice talking to you.

  13. Jewels profile image81
    Jewelsposted 7 years ago

    I'm interested in fiery's response to Eric's question.  Up until 3 years ago I'd have put curses and spells in the bin with every other superstitious bit of garbage.  But unfortunately when you deconstruct the mumbo jumbo out of it, it is in essence the influence of one person over another persons mind.  And believe it or not, similar to any psychological neurosis, some are created through the strangest of circumstances.

    A more disturbing part of this is the guardianship of innocent children against superstitious mumbo jumbo.

    1. Eric Graudins profile image61
      Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Exactly. And the whole point of this thread is to find out if anyone can explain to what religious justification there could possibly be for supporting this type of activity.

      So far, all the only response I've had is the bald assertion that the practice does not exist.

      (And apparently  there have been instances of this in the UK and other countries as well, so the practice is not unique to Nigeria)

      1. Paraglider profile image90
        Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Did you miss mine? scroll up about four wink

        1. Eric Graudins profile image61
          Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          My apologies Paraglider. Great comment.
          Too much QRM (noise) on the thread, and I missed it.

          I agree that religious bodies can turn a blind eye to all sorts of atrocities as long as the ends of the organisation is met. I just can't understand WHY.

          Anyone here want to discuss the religious justification of what went on at the Magdalene Laundries?
          Joni Mitchell's powerful song
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU1Zymqlhko

          1. Paraglider profile image90
            Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            QSK

            1. Eric Graudins profile image61
              Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry, not fitted to my copy of firefox smile

          2. ledefensetech profile image81
            ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Eric, what you seen to miss is that these people will use any justification to pursue their evil ends.  They will use whatever they can to cast what they do in a divine light.  Since religion and philosophy concern themselves with people and their place in the world, it is natural for people to use religion and philosophy as an excuse for their behaviors.  Does that condemn the particular religion or philosophy.  Not necessarily.

            Stephen King was asked once if the censored his writings because he feared "copycat" murders or people using plots from his stories as fodder for their demented fantasies.  He said he did not, the reason being that if some unbalanced person didn't choose his plot to copycat, he or she would just use another.  The problem is not the reasons they give for their actions, but their actions themselves.  As long as we excuse what people do, instead of holding them accountable, things like this will reoccur.

            1. Jewels profile image81
              Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              And those Pastors need to be held accountable for their actions Yes? No?

              1. ledefensetech profile image81
                ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Of course they do.  By your actions shall you be known.  You can claim to be holy or have the ear of God or what have you, but if your actions are evil so are you.  It's a pretty easy solution set.  Yet even atheists have done great evil in the world.  The USSR didn't believe in any type of religion or spirituality and they murdered millions upon millions.  What you call yourself isn't important, it's what you do and how you treat people that matter.

                1. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree, no belief system has a monopoly on doing good or bad in the world.

                2. Lady Guinevere profile image62
                  Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Correct, BUT and here is the big BUT, they ae hiding behind GOD as they do these horrible things to the innocents--children.  They blame it on God or Satan and it is their OWN doing.  Giving it to someone else is not being Self Responsible and accountable for their own action.

                  1. ledefensetech profile image81
                    ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    If they didn't use God, they'd use something else.  Heck I dealt with kids in the mental health and foster care system, not only were some of them taken from everything they knew, they were put into abusive foster care situations by the state.  Other kids who were abused by their parents were sent back to them after treatment because "families should be together".  Making bad decisions and attributing no fault to them is not the sole province of religion.

                  2. Jewels profile image81
                    Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Which is why I want to know:
                    How does one become a Pastor or Preacher or religious authority?
                    Who are these Pastors and Preachers accountable to?
                    Is the Pope their boss?
                    Is there a register of Pastors and Preachers held somewhere, if so where?
                    If they align to the Christian religion and read from the christian bible, is there not a human authority they are to be accountable to?
                    If a christian is condoning the actions of the Pastors within their own tradition, does this not also make them accountable?

      2. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I became aware of the practice of spells awhile ago.  When I was at a lecture about it I was really cynical. Inside my head was 'bullshit, this is such crap.'  But it's not unfortunately.

        I watched the video and read the links you put up Eric. This is not promotional stuff for the mad woman that fierycj is talking about.

        These poor kids are being ostracized by their parents and communities because they've been told their children are witches.  The preachers are making money doing rituals or exorcisms on the children to earn money.  Not only is there emotional abuse but physical abuse as the children are burnt with acids, poisoned, one girl had nails embedded in her skull.

        Spells and witchcraft are not new.  But this is beyond your regular spell casting stuff.  Hundreds of children are being effected here not because they are witches, but because the pastors want money.

        How does one become a Pentacostal pastor? 
        Do you get a licence from a cereal packet?
        Who regulates preachers?

        (The AIDS/HIV epidemic has been put in the mix but I'm seeing it is only an underlying reason the Pastors are doing this for money.  The pastors are saying the witches are causing you to get AIDS.  The witch children are not the cause at all they are being used as tools in a filthy display of human disgusting behavior.)  That's my personal opinion and you won't get me to change that view.)

        1. Eric Graudins profile image61
          Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly.
          And its being done by religious people in the name of God.

          1. Jewels profile image81
            Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            My heart hurts sad

          2. accofranco profile image76
            accofrancoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Very painful. Though my family have been tormented by a witch who later confessed,but we never hurt her,instead we helped her to get spiritual deliverance through our faithful family pastor,and she is now a dedicated Christian.So i think the pastor in question should have helped to deliver the children from the hand of witchcrafty instead of killing them,if she is sure she is serving the true God. Inhumane world we live in!

            1. Jewels profile image81
              Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              But what the issue is, is the children are NOT witches.  How dare that person think they are almighty powerful to damn a child's life for money.  It's not the children who need to be delivered from evil, it's the damn Pastor and the parents of the children who believe the Pastor.

            2. Eric Graudins profile image61
              Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I'd be interested to hear the circumstances under which the confession was made.

  14. Paraglider profile image90
    Paragliderposted 7 years ago

    Eric - In many parts of Africa ancient superstitious practices persist, sometimes with, sometimes without, open or tacit approval from organised religion. I believe Fierycj is correct in saying that sensationalism plays a part in these stories, but only a part. It is simply untrue to suggest the practices don't exist. Similarly (though off-topic!) some children in India are mutilated horribly to make them more effective beggars. I've seen things in Mumbai that I won't describe here. Back to Africa, there is also, in certain places, persecution of Albinos, including murder, dismembering and cannibalism of the most magic body parts, to protect against evil spirits.

    As to your question, I suspect that religious extremists may on occasion condone such practices more readily than would the irreligious or the religiously moderate, because such people are already addicted to the supernatural and opposed to rational analysis. They are therefore more easily corruptible, having made a life practice of denial of reality.

    Please note - I am not talking about your everyday mainstream Christian here, only the lunatic fringe.

  15. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    Haven't heard of this story, but for sure witches exist and they sometimes torment too yet,i find no justifying reason(s) to kill or destroy either...we mustn't forget that vampires and aliens exist in some other countries of the world and they are properly taken care of,lol!

  16. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    ...and please,a situation whereby a person confesses that he or she is a witch,and admits killing and frustrating lives,what should be the person's fate Eric?

  17. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    And we mustn't forget that some Christians are extremists,practicing not just what the Bible teaches but whatever that pleases their beliefs and the ones that brings them fame,riches and followers,and such Christians aren't only found in Africa (Nigeria) but globally,so it is a matter of personality and individualism,just as some Muslims believe in Jihaad while some do not.

  18. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    Thanks Accofranco,

    But what do you have to say in response to the question I raised in my Original Post?

    What religious justification is there to poison, burn, dismember, and kill small children?

    1. accofranco profile image76
      accofrancoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think the pastor and instigator in question thinks she is fulfilling the Bible prophecy which says:"show no mercy to the wicked",but she interpreted it wrongly i guess,so to me,killing or poisoning is diabolic if we go by Christ's teachings which is the mentor of every faithful Christian,neither am i judging because the Bible said judge not for you not to be judged!We all are imperfect beings,we must acknowledge that fact,thank you.

  19. Jewels profile image81
    Jewelsposted 7 years ago

    Before Christians disassociate themselves from this issue, amid the articles that Eric posted (hope they are being read) was the reference to these preachers being Christian, and the use of bible teachings.

    I would love for Christians to take ownership of their teachings and regulate who actually preaches the teachings of their bible.

    Perhaps you could ask the Pope to intervene on behalf of all Christians and actually help the children of the christian parents who allow this to happen.

    I am angry at this, sorry can't help but get emotive when innocent children are involved.

  20. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    Quote Accofranco:
    "thinks she is fulfilling the Bible prophecy which says:"show no mercy to the wicked","

    You really aren't offering THAT as justification are you?

    This would mean that religious people can justify hurting, burning, and killing kids because apparently Jesus also said "Suffer the little children" ??

    1. accofranco profile image76
      accofrancoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      i wasn't quoting Eric,but i still think Fierycj is right,you guys always over exagerate things about Nigeria,you believe every shit you hear about Nigeria,should i mention the Pakistan woman murdered by usa prison warders at the us secret prison? Courtesy, Presstv.ir and those at the Guentamala bay,etc? Africans have forgot the slavery you guys did,yet most of you still talk about us with deep hatred.You talk about Nigerian scam with deep hatred,do you know the worth in currency of the slavery you westerners did to us?No single nation can be able to pay the prize,please talk about Nigeria with some respect and love i beg you all?I love my country Nigeria.

      1. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It wouldn't matter if these atrocities were happening in Nigeria or Paris.  This is not personal to Nigeria, it isn't, it just happens to be happening in Nigeria.  The source of the reports is quite reputable, it's not hard to see what is rubbish reporting and what is not.

        This should not be happening anywhere.  If it was happening in Chicago, I'd be disgusted at the Pastors in Chicago.

  21. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    @Froggy, I agree. That's my view too.

    @fierycj: Thanks for your contribution.

  22. blondepoet profile image79
    blondepoetposted 7 years ago

    This is the most disgusting appalling, horrifying,cruel act towards children in the so called name of religion I have ever seen. I just wanted to rush there, take the whole bunch of innocent, severely abused children in my arms and take them away from there.
    The people who inflicted these horrendous wounds upon these children are the most callous people I have ever seen. I see an over pouring of brain-washed people, this is just unacceptable to harm these innocent children.
    My heart is truly bleeding to have seen this, yet I am glad I did, or I would never have known the inhuman acts that are practised in this part of the world. I wish I could just land a huge jet there, and take those children all away from this. Did not the parents say they don't want them anyway?

    1. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree BP.  If the parents are that gullible, the bond with their children must not be that strong.  Fear preaching is so dangerous. It's not hard to see who is effected by evil in this situation.

      Imagine how confused those children must be and how unloved they must feel.  Because of a bible preacher! Grrrrrr!

      1. blondepoet profile image79
        blondepoetposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes Jewels, the looks on their faces, they looked so horribly lost, in pain, the faces of angels with nails in their heads, ankles exposing the bones in them from ropes, children with third degree burns, quite obvious that someone is doing this to these little children. I would be just as appalled if this was happening in my country, the cases we do have here of child abuse also have a profound effect on me. It does not matter where this is happening, child abuse full stop is wrong.

  23. fierycj profile image84
    fierycjposted 7 years ago

    I'm I really talking to myself when I say that I've been to these places and there ain't nothing of that sort going on in those places. Gawd!

    1. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      lol  lol peace bro I haven't said anything as I really don't know smile

    2. Paraglider profile image90
      Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Fierycj - I acknowledged that there is often exaggeration and sensationalism in reports, but you are doing yourself (and Nigeria) no favours by insisting the practice doesn't exist. The argument 'I've been there and it's not true' doesn't hold water. I've been to London but I've never seen a murder committed. Yet they happen. I've been to Sudan and never seen anyone being hacked with a machete. Yet that happens too. I'd go to Nigeria tomorrow if a contract came up. I'm not remotely anti-African. But let's at least be honest, as the first step in changing what must be changed.

      1. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        But he is saying this person lives close to him and he knows so I give fieryc the benefit of the doubt.

        1. Paraglider profile image90
          Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          We're not talking exclusively about one person. These atrocities have been reported before.

          1. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            It started with one person but has now taken a different tangent.
            Fiercy you and your friends in Africa are a bunch of blood sucking, child murdering , black magic devils  .lol  lol

            Open your eyes , you dont know whats going on around you while many others do lol  lol

            I still believe you fieryc wink

        2. blondepoet profile image79
          blondepoetposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The fact is someone is putting nails in little children's heads, abusing children, even if the stories are not true,the video evidence strongly suggests children are being abused, is that not something enough to suggest something is happening there. In my country although I have never seen murder, a child being abused, a store attendant being robbed with a gun to his head, an innocent person being murdered, it happens here alright. This does not mean Nigeria is a bad country, nor does it suggest Australia is a bad country, but the bad things that happen within our countries, are unacceptable.

        3. 0
          ryankettposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The Guardian is probably the most impartial, reliable, honest and liberal paper in the UK. So I would hate to think that they are lying to be honest. The Guardian are not known to be inaccurate and are a slightly left wing paper, I can't see any kind of motive towards sensationalising negative stories towards Africa. There are plenty of papers in the UK that would do so, but I highly doubt that The Guardian would. I could be wrong, I would be very very dissapointed if I was though.

    3. 0
      \Brenda Scullyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I am listening....... Fiery have you seen my new hub it is a nice peaceful poem i think you will like it

    4. Eric Graudins profile image61
      Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      fierycj, your loyalty is admirable.

      But you really need to do a bit of research about your own country.

      You could start by checking out the child protection legislation that your country recently has enacted to outlaw this practice, as a result of the documentary that I saw. If it is all a lie, why would your government enact this legislation?

      For anyone who is interested, the documentary was shown on 4 corners in Australa on 21st June 2009.
      You can watch it online at http://www.abc.net.au/iview
      (Not sure if this is available outside Australia)

  24. Miss M profile image59
    Miss Mposted 7 years ago

    Um, it isn't our business to insult the families in nigeria. maybe they truly believe in that, so don't diss them!

    1. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Unfortunately it's that attitude that keeps the world turning in filth.  The children can fend for themselves and be slaughtered in the name of evil stupidity.  And in the name of humanity, remind me not to care if a bomb is dropped on Trafalgar Square in peak hour.

  25. fierycj profile image84
    fierycjposted 7 years ago

    I GIVE UP!!!

    1. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Don't ever give up smile

    2. accofranco profile image76
      accofrancoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Me too!

  26. Miss M profile image59
    Miss Mposted 7 years ago

    lol!

  27. Jewels profile image81
    Jewelsposted 7 years ago

    It was previously reported that the documentary was fabricated, I'm sure it would be easier to believe that.  UNICEF and Amnesty International were aware of it so I'm inclined to go with the reputation of these organizations.
    http://thenationonlineng.net/web/articl … Page1.html

  28. Miss M profile image59
    Miss Mposted 7 years ago

    eh, life sucks, get over it!

  29. 0
    \Brenda Scullyposted 7 years ago

    you suck Miss M....... would like to get over you...

    Fiery where are you.....

  30. Mrvoodoo profile image61
    Mrvoodooposted 7 years ago

    I saw that documentary, it was fucking horrendous, and I've also just finished reading a book on the Magdalene laundries, it was one of those books where you just shake your head in disbelief all the way through and shed a few tears along the way.

    The fact that all these things happen in the name of religion should be hard to believe and shocking, but strangely it isn't. 

    A friend and I whilst chatting came to the conclusion that 'really evil' people must be drawn to religion like moths to a light, and that's all I have in way of explanation for you.

  31. Eric Graudins profile image61
    Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago

    Yes Mr. Voodoo, It's hard to escape that conclusion.
    Especially when you take into account all of the other atrocities that happen in the name of religion.

  32. 0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    If it is true then it is a very sad thing indeed. It is something that should not happen nor be allowed. If it is not true as fierycj says, then it is only dramatics and means nothing.

    Religion is not what cause men to do things such as this. The heart of man is evil and full of mischief.

    (edited)

    I forgot to mention that I cannot view the videos. I am on dial up interent.

    1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
      Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Sir Dent, part of you theory is true.  A Gun does not kill, the person behind the gun is the kiler.  ALL men or MANKIND are not automatically EVIL.  That is a myth because I know that I do not have a tendencie to be EVIL as you state.  I know many others that way too.  So you cannot use a blanket statement like that and truly really believe that.  Babies do not do evil things.  I read on another hub about the spirit of man and the Holy Spirit properties and evil isn't in any of it.

      Religions don't make people do things--hogwash--it is the people who are allowed to or are putting themselves on pedestals or those who are "bullies" that are up onb top who love controlling people.  Those are the evil does you speak of.
      Each person has choices and those choices dictate the outcome.  You will reap what you sow..cause and effect....karma.......

      So by your statement it can come to say that those children are really evil doers in their hearts and therefore can and will be the cause of the deaths and diseases in those families?

      If one of your parent's died and you had a young child, is that child responsible for the death of that family member?  Where is the Self Responsibility or ownership in that?

  33. Sufidreamer profile image82
    Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago

    Have the same problem, Sir Dent. Dial up is a major drag.

    Certainly, I am always wary of such things - there was a big case in Scotland a few years ago, where social workers took children away from their parents because of alleged satanistic rituals and child abuse.

    It was later thrown out of court for being fabrication and lies.

    fiery's opinion is worth listening to - it is in his back-yard smile

  34. HOOWANTSTONO profile image61
    HOOWANTSTONOposted 7 years ago

    You must have first lived in Africa to understand.The Whites of white nations also used to do these things, guised as Religious practices.....Catholic Instituition comes to mind.....

  35. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    Sounds like you're not an atheist at all. Go find a local church and tell the priest what you just said up to "What you take you must put back" and he'll likely agree with you.

    1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
      Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No they won't.  There is no Evil being that does things in this world to harm others or takes their souls away.  There is no God that tells you what you can and cannot wear in church because of Respect to HIM.

    2. Lady Guinevere profile image62
      Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Nope becaseu they think that their GOD is in control of everything and we are not in control of anything.  They teach that you MUST go to Church to receive Jesus and that you MUST have a go-between to get to God.  Therefore I do not go with their silly doctrines because that is NOT what the Bible says or what Jesus supposedly said.

  36. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    Sounds like you are yet another person who stopped considering what religions have to say at a very adolescent level. You might be surprised what a priest has to say if you were willing to engage in a dialog without anger and prejudice.

    Let your guard down a little

    1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
      Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      LOL LOL LOL LOL, I am not angry and I have gone to chruch and listened to them since I was a very little girl!  I have also talked with many Catholic Priests about everything under the sun/son.
      Some of you just like to assume because someone has a different outlook on things that they were born in a barn last night!  LOL LOL LOL

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Rereading your own posts you don't think it is reasonable to conclude that you sound kind of angry?

        You say you have "talked with many Catholic Priests about everything under the sun" and I'll have to take your word for that, but it sure doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you saw a picture book of God as a big white guy with a beard sitting on a clound throwing lightening at a red guy with horns and you closed the book and never looked back.

        And frankly, it seems that some of your own comments are contradictory in a way.

        1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
          Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You try to be funny, but you aren't.  Can't read either without interjecting some evil slant into everything. 
          Trying to throw me off--fine.  I could give a flying fig what you are trying to do.  Many trolls do the very same thing as you are doing.

  37. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    Just trying to discuss. Nothing "evil."

  38. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?

  39. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?

  40. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?

  41. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?

  42. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?Meanwhile,you guys must try and stop reasoning like chauvunist,it tarnishes your prestige,evil things happen in every country,though this story is an unconfirmed money-making purpose video,created to gain western audience,which it did got.

  43. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?Meanwhile,you guys must try and stop reasoning like chauvunist,it tarnishes your prestige,evil things happen in every country,though this story is an unconfirmed money-making purpose video,created to gain western audience,which it did got.

  44. accofranco profile image76
    accofrancoposted 7 years ago

    @Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?Meanwhile,you guys must try and stop reasoning like chauvunist,it tarnishes your prestige,evil things happen in every country,though this story is an unconfirmed money-making purpose video,created to gain western audience,which it did got.

  45. Lady Guinevere profile image62
    Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago

    Looks like Hubpages is stuck on the send message thing again!!

  46. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 7 years ago

    I love it when Christians tenderly talk to each other lol

  47. countrywomen profile image61
    countrywomenposted 7 years ago

    Thanks Elena. Hopefully we will get the complete picture soon. Even if these incidents do occur here and there I personally consider these issues have more to do with ignorance/superstition rather than Nigerian/Christian. smile

  48. trooper22 profile image59
    trooper22posted 7 years ago

    "These young children are then ostracised, burnt, maimed, killed, and/or banished. One "religious person" takes pride in boasting on camera how he has personally killed over 100 child witches."

       But it's such a peaceful religion, that is if we forget about the Mid-east Crusades, the Southern French Crusade, The Northern Crusade, the Burning of millions of women for being physicians and mid-wives (only 60 thousand documented, but never forget how Romans and Christians love to burn books and documents that don't suit their idealism) the crusade against the Natives all over the World, the attempts to Christianize the Orient by force, the systematic extermination of the North American Natives, the look the other way policy of the Vatican while the Nazi's slaughtered Millions (not just those of the Jewish faith)the rape of CHILDREN by priests, the murder of CHILDREN who are accused of being witches.  Hmmm, yea...it's real peaceful, merciful, and charitable.  We are so fortunate to have these valient Christians protect us from the devil they invented to give us lowly heathens perspective.  Oh, and don't forget that making love to your wife is wrong if you use a condom, and it's a sin if she uses birth control dispite the fact that there are SEVEN BILLION people on the planet, we still need to make MORE babies until there is no more fish in the sea, trees in the forest, or food on our tables.  It's all about God's will.

    1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
      Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thank You!!  Someone spoke up for those who are being tortured and maimed because of some peoples stupity and GREED for more Power!  Hear, Hear!

      1. blondepoet profile image79
        blondepoetposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Good on you Trooper you are the man. Travelling around the world with your work I am sure you have seen many things.

    2. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Your problem is with humanity, not religion. Take it up with them.

      1. trooper22 profile image59
        trooper22posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        That's a funny and very typical response.  Why I find it funny is because of something that happened to me not long after I returned home from Iraq.  You see I was there during Baby's Bush's little oil Crusade.  Well, after I returned home, I was doing my laundry near my home at a coin wash when two elderly women approached me as I was leaning against my jeep having cigarette and enjoying the morning while my clothes were in the dryer.  One of the women approached me and handed me a pamphlet from a local nest of "Christians" and told me I should read it if I wished to be saved".  I politely handed it back and said "no thank you" 
           She then asked I am Jewish. And I told her that I am not still trying to hand her back the pamphlet. 
           She then asked me if I am afraid to read it, and I said;
          "No, I have read both the King James, and the Vatican's English translations of the Christian bible." 
        She then asked me why I do not wish to read her pamphlet.  I told her that I was a soldier and that I had just returned home from war and have no desire to read anything from any religion of the "one god" because throughout the history of Humanity nothing and no one has been responsible for more killing than the followers of the "one god". 
          She then asked me if I didn't think that some people need to be killed?  About that time I asked her once again to please go away.  These two women followed me into the laundry, harped at me while I calmly folded my clothes and then followed me out to my jeep as I put the clothes into my car.  One of them actually took down my license plate number.  Now I will remind you that these women were in thier 60's at least, so for me, a man who at the time was extremely fit and well trained in war, it was a no win situation.  How does a man defend himself against two Fanatics in such a situation?  All I could think of was,
          "How very Christian of them" to accost me endlessly until I was nearly forced to run them down in the parking lot. 
           My problem is indeed with Humanity, and with the Gods they invent.  If you want to be a person of faith, fine.  Keep it to yourself and stop bothering people, and if I ever catch one of you fruit cakes abusing a child you better give your soul to your god, because your ass will be mine. That's something I'll happily go to prison for.

        1. Lady Guinevere profile image62
          Lady Guinevereposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          There are a few other people on HP that does the same things and she is driving me batty!  Thanks for telling YOUR side of the story!  Until they had to actually 'Kill' someone they have no idea.  I have never had to kill someone, but I understand---wonder why that is?

        2. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Really? I thought it was kind of original.

           

          Ah, the 'Oil Crusade.' Look at all that oil we got! Oh wait...



          You shouldn't smoke, it's bad for you. I like the Jeep though, nice touch.

           

          Why did you use the word "nest"? Got a little bigotry goin' on there?



          Good work.

           


          That might have been your mistake right there. Don't engage people who want to bother you in conversation. It only encourages them.

          Thank you for your service, btw.

           

          Really? 'Cause the followers of 'no god' have done a pretty damn good job of it too. Humans are a violent, aggressive animal.



          What church were they from?



          LOL, were you afraid they would physically assault you? Were you planning on beating them up?

           


          I know, that's why I said it.



          The problem with that is that a key component of some faiths is sharing the 'good word' and all that. I suppose some get a little too zealous about that part.



          And what the hell was the point of that last bit? Leaving aside for the moment the fact that I haven't said what if any religion I personally subscribe to -

          Am I supposed to say now that I had better not catch any of you atheists abusing a child ('cause they do too) or your ass will be mine? 'Cause it will. Should I say that I had better not catch you making that kind of accusation to me personally or your ass will be mine? 'Cause it will. How's that? Any more tough talk needed? I was under the impression you were older than this.

          1. trooper22 profile image59
            trooper22posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Afraid of them?  No, Afraid of me...yes.

            Don't thank me, I didn't serve for you, I served an Idea, only to find out that I am one of the few creatures in this lost land that seems to have taken the time to read it, understand it, and actually volenteer to defend it.  Unfortuately, I was lied to.  Don't thank me, because I'll NEVER be on the wrong side again.

            1. ledefensetech profile image81
              ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Trooper it's off topic but, out of curiosity, what group or groups do you hold responsible to lying to you?  I've heard this sort of thing from recent vets.  Not from guys my dads age or even most guys who served in Vietnam, Ivan the Terrible being an exception, but recent vets who feel they've been lied to.  And do you think the lies are ongoing?

              1. trooper22 profile image59
                trooper22posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Who?  lol, I was once told never argue with a fool.  I think I'll take that advice now.  I probably should have sooner in this thread.

                Yes they are, no need to look further than the Rupert Murdock propaganda network aka Fox News.

                1. ledefensetech profile image81
                  ledefensetechposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  How many buddies of yours would you say feel the same way?

                  1. trooper22 profile image59
                    trooper22posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                       Almost every soldier that has seen the wrong end of a rifle.  Many still are in, but they are no longer there for Country, they are there for the kids.  Someone has to look out for them and bring them home safe.  I did my time, and I now realize that I can no longer fight the unseen within my country, and I am powerless to convince the foolish that they are wrong.  The U.S. is a sham, and the few men and women that try to to make it right are washed over by the millions of morons that are trying to make it evil, White and "Rightous".  The door does indeed swing both ways, and I'll be using it.

                2. tksensei profile image59
                  tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Fox News made you go to Iraq? Wow, they ARE the most powerful name in news!

                  Next time, change the channel.

            2. tksensei profile image59
              tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I do thank you, and you did serve for me and for all other citizens. I'm surprised you didn't get a sense of that from that thing you read that for some reason you think no one else has read. I'm sorry you feel so dissillusioned but in time you may have a different perspective on it. At least I hope so. Thanks again.

        3. Jewels profile image81
          Jewelsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Trooper, I think I love you smile

  49. Beth100 profile image84
    Beth100posted 7 years ago

    This is horrific.  If we look throughout history and the present, we can find many types of atrocities that are happening around us.  How can humanity say that it is enlightened when these types of atrocities are allowed to happend?

    Thank you for bringing to light this subject.

  50. Randy Godwin profile image94
    Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago

    I understand how you feel Trooper.  To me, there is nothing more obnoxious than a religious person who feels they have the right to harass others with their own personal beliefs.  It is kind of sad though, they don't realize how pathetically desperate they appear to others.  Nutty too!

 
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