I understand that this question is a generalization. I ask the question with all due respect. I have noticed in the forums that some/most atheist believe that we/humans are simple chance of evolution. Some believe we have no divine reason or purpose in life. This is understandable, but is it a reason to tell religionist that their belief is trash because you don't agree?
It seems to be more of the other way round.
The very fact that you use the word "chance" with "evolution," pretty much sums it up.
Really - why don't you educate yourself about evolution before making such broad generalizations?
We evolved. Chance has nothing to do with the process. Deal with it.
Although - I have to say - my understanding of the evolutionary process had nothing to do with coming to the conclusion that there is no divine creator behind everything. Which is what all atheists do not believe.
Quite honestly any one who comes to the conclusion that there is a divine purpose either has particularly low self-esteem, an unreasonable fear of death, or needs their head examined as far as I am concerned.
I think you are mad because you cannot find purpose or reason and have given up. You can't explain your evolution of how the human mind became so complex to the animal mind. You rely on science, but you have no science to show where or when the human mind seperated, so you "assume". Your assumptions are the same as religions assumptions.
There is no attack anywhere. Do you feel threatened? I was making the comment to Mark, not all atheist. However, I can see why many atheist are mad when they can't find reason or purpose to life.
Not going that way sunshine! You get to wear what you said.
"I can see why many atheist are mad when they can't find reason or purpose to life." How else would you describe it?
Look its no different to how an atheist questions a Christian, so quit the defensive attitude and just answer the question ,if it was for you.
In that statement, I was making the relation of seeing how someone can be mad when they don't see reason/purpose for life. I also said "many", not all. I have respect for you from previous conversations. If I said anything that offended you, I appologize. Thank You
Ok thanks for the clarification and I didnt think you were meaning anyone in particular ,least of all me , but thats just my self esteem kickin in or im too sweet to be mean meter working...lol
No opology needed I come from a large family , and we all think and act differently , I like people , I enjoy people! (most of them ).
What have I "assumed," exactly?
I have read a lot of religious books, I have discussed the matter with many clergymen, I have listened and watched the way people who believe in the christian god behave and speak to me and I have made a rational decision that there is not a god.
On further researching, I discovered evolution and made an effort to understand how it works. This led me to believe that the christian literalists are 100% wrong and we were not "created."
On even further research, I have made a rational decision that there is no room for a god in evolutionary biology.
On even more research, I discovered that there was a point in time that homo sapiens apparently became self aware - evidenced by the discovery of art and other non-functional artifacts from around that time, when there were none before.
Homo Sapiens have been around for around 190,000 years, so something triggered this self-awareness.
I do not know exactly what that is. But I reject anyone who tells me they do based on "well, there MUST be a purpouse, otherwise it is all a waste of time."
And attacking me as being mad because I "cannot find purpose or reason," and have "given up," is not really debating anything.
Sorry you feel the need to attack others who do not share your beliefs, but if you have anything rational to add, I would be happy to debate you.
Mark many scientists beleive that the earth is not that old ,so saying mankind is x amount of years old is not true.
Eaglekiwi - this is untrue. Certainly a very small minority of religious "scientists" are prepared to say so, but the evidence is overwhelming.
No not a small majority and I agree there is overwhleming evidence or could some of that evidence actaully be 'speculation' and/or theory.
Science is an amazing topic and part of those years of amazing research is to analyse and decipher theory from fact.
Like age of soil , condition of atmposphere, land mass, oceans , on and on.
Trees ,fauna , animals , age ,adaptation etc , I agree they evolved ,but I do not accept they evolved into another creature (as in man), they like humans evolved ,or adapted within their own species.
Which would also explain why an animal that has been cross bred with another breed cannot produce offspring.
Then how do new species come about exactly?
They are being discovered almost daily ,how they come about initially, God created them.
There are still so many insects for example that man can not name as there are so many.
The scientist can create a new breed but he cannot do it from scrathc ie create the original cell.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Or do you genuinely believe that homo sapiens shared the earth with dinosaurs?
Obtuse? thats very rude of you Mark to assume that of me ,oh well
No in answer to your question ( note how I left out any stereo typical sarcasm in my answer)
I did not assume anything. I asked you a question. Because I asked you one question and you answered another.
So, no - you do not believe that homo sapiens were on the earth at the same time as the dinosaurs. Is that the question you were answering?
No I am not being obtuse (why would you ask that?)
Yes man was around during the dinosaur period.
and now im off to get eggs...coz im hungry ,so I wont see your reply for a while
I asked because you answered a different question to the one I asked you.
And I am not really sure the belief you have that man was around at the same time as the dinosaurs warrants a response.
Other than to ask you where the evidence for this is?
Bumping this up. as Eaglekiwi is now back....
So you need company to bumb things up? We're lucky then that eaglekiwi is back !
No - just interested (as EK is a big fan of complete scientific evidence) as to how she has come to the conclusion that man and dinosaurs were around at the same time.
i'm really not interested in that subject, sorry It's 2 much 4 me as i said before Idont care where do we come from, only interested to where are we going
I am interested in both. Which is why I asked her the question, because she knows where we are going, based on the fact that dinosaurs and men were around at the same time.
You are going to the same place we are all going.
maybe yes or maybe not, you don't know me .. I leave u know ... to your arguments. Bye ! .lol:
Scientific evidence from fossils .... Dinosaurs existed earlier than us.... more ever its gonna be difficult for Noah to carry these dinosaurs in a ship.
Do you know the dimensions (of the arc)...and actually they were not called dinosuars until ?...later ...
Yes I do. And the very idea,,,,,,,,,,
What were "they" called?
Sorry - too many LOLs?
You are so funny. Thanks for the laugh....
Oh deary me. How ignorant can you get?
I will sleep well after that one.
Did Jesus ride Dinos?
Or was it a Donkey/Dino?
Looking forward to the scientific evidence you have for this.
Yep sounds like someone needs an early night
why dont ya sleep on it
is good for ya
Oh, I will..
Dinosaurs in the Ark...........
And you wonder why I am not interested in your beliefs about Jesus............................
Might be worth sleeping on yourself.
But that point was cleared up earlier...
I do not wonder why you believe what you believe.
I only wonder why you have laugh at others when they believe differently.
Is that not insecurity ,or how did you define it , low self esteem ,hmmm.
Why should I not find it funny that you think there were dinosaurs on the Ark, and this means you are "saved," ?
Really, what is not funny here?
Low self esteem? Sure - you are showing a lot of that. Defensiveness? Yes - you do a lot of that.
But really - dinosaurs and men at the same time? This is pure ignorance and a total lack of education.
Sorry - I wish I could help...........
And you are always on the attack....sorry wish I could help
I think you need to question your own education and never confuse intelligence with education!
Seriously - who is the one who leaves comments on the other person's hubs attacking what they said?
And really - you are a very funny lady. You think evolution will always be "just a theory," because of the "lack of evidence," but are quite happy to believe dinosaurs and men were around in the same time frame because the bible doesn't say they weren't.
Did the well-documented, clearly proven, every-scientist-agrees-it-happened great flood kill them off and turn them into oil by a process known as "rusting,"?
This is what is called "cognitive dissonance," and is a large part of the reason you feel the need to attack people who do not share your irrational beliefs.
I'm skeptic.... but if you gonna believe those huge behemoths (doesn't matter what we call them).... can fit in a Ark.... Fine.... Peace.
@Eaglekiwi No offense ... Nice to meet ya.... C Ya.
Eagle you are allowing yourself to be baited.
It is more logical to assume that the dinosaurs drowned in the flood.
And I dont know about you but we can humbly admit that we dont have all the answers to all the scientific questions, just enough to believe.
I am staying out of this one.
Now come on glendoncaba - How on earth do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously after making this statement?
@Mark I'm surprised...the most powerful country on earth....we even have some politicians who have similar beliefs... Gosh : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/2 … 30012.html
Its time to sleep for me. I'm sorry for what u guys are doing to ek. She needs to simply say she accepts certain things by faith or that the scientific conclusions are debatable.
Dinos in ark.
Dinos drowned. Yes.
some survived and died in ensuing famine. Yes.
Lived same time as man. Yes according to bible.
Rational. A little, plus Faith.
So who's mad.
Me, for being up so late.
Do I need more answers?
What if i wake up tomorrow and scientist announced missing link found.
He would be god. He 'created' the missing link.
Like I said - how on earth do you expect anyone to take you seriously when this is what you have come up with?
How about this quote
"Disappointingly, some Christians fail to offer a consistent reason for their line of thinking, because young-earth creationism may be seen as going back to “the God of the gaps.” The issue has been addressed by Weinberger (2008), who argues that as long as the science is consistent with the Bible, then we should not worry about offering an explanation for phenomenon that science has no explanation for. After all, God does not try to prove His existence. He simply tells us that He is there. The science and the theology now form an impregnable position on the origin of oil."
from this article by a creation scientist:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article … gin-of-oil
If you have the time to read it. You will understand this thing more than I do. I'm not saying that I agree with everything in his theory but it offers more food for thought than my simple statements of faith.
I have had this discussion with others and have been pointed to the same psuedo-scientific mumbo jumbo before.
Nothing on that page has any scientific value whatsoever to back up a claim that dinosaurs were around at the same time as men. Sorry.
You believe whatever you want to believe. If you think dinosaurs were around at the same time as men, you go right ahead. Just do not expect me to take anything you say about anything else seriously.
I must have missed the last instructions from god to adam and eve.
"Oh, and watch out for the dinosaurs, they bite."
The only biting in a perfect world would be adam in the bedroom.
Adam is in the bedroom and dont worry Mark we killed all the dinsours off just like we did a few other species, n doing our best to even more....Zena princess warrior will save you
Well, that certainly makes no less sense than the rest of it.
My wife will be happier if I spend more time in the bedroom and less in the study.
Mark the truth is there are some questions for which religionists will not be able to offer a scientifically coherent answer which is based on widely acceptable scientific theory.
In the same way there are some questions that science will not be able to offer logically coherent responses based on what is observable in nature.
If it were not for evidence of providence and revelation especially prophecy I might have taken your position for honestly I am far too analytical for my own good.
In my personal experience for example I live in a culture where people are quite superstitious, so I usually take the high road by saying look for the scientific explanation before we cry witchcraft. Seventh-day Adventists are very pragmatic, we seek to combine faith and reason; so I quite understand that you laugh at young-earth theory. If it were for creation science alone I would not be a believer. The answer for me lies in the fact that Jesus did not contradict the OT but taught the OT as a source. Jesus taught Genesis creation. So I rest my faith in Jesus. Not blindly but simple faith.
Well, in this matter - you should listen to your wife.
Not sure what any of that has to do with your rather silly belief that men and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time though.
I would be the first to admit that the only evidence we have about dinosaurs is from the fossil record and any guesses we might make about their true composition are based on limited information - but there is no doubt they died out some considerable time before homo sapiens arose.
I too live in a culture based upon superstition - you should see the amoount of people wearing a ridiculous piece of jewellery with a dead guy nailed to a piece of wood on it to ward off evil spirits.
But still - you do not even realize that the faith you speak of must be blind - or it is not faith, but knowledge. Not the same thing - regardless of your attempts to insist that it is.......
I too live in a culture based upon superstition - you should see the amoount of people wearing a ridiculous piece of jewellery with a dead guy nailed to a piece of wood on it to ward off evil spirits.
That was a tough 1 !!! OUCH!
Mark and tantrum:
You must look at my new hub on social perception which discusses stereotyping.
Your interesting comment bounces right off because I and millions of our members worldwide
1. Dont wear jewellery.
2. Dont use the figure of cross to ward off anything. We view that as superstition.
You see I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. Check out the SDA church in your neighbourhood to see if I am telling the truth.
Talk about stereotyping. Talk about prejudice. You must not fill in the gaps with generalisations. If you guys had enough respect to read what I write carefully here and elsewhere you would see we are sola scriptura. And would not throw hasty generalisations like this. But I believed it was partly done in good fun. Right?
Just that this time you are talking to a Christian who sees the use of such things as superstition as well. Yes we are on the same page with that. Can you imagine. All along i said in other threads which you have no doubt read that we are carrying forward the Protestant Reformation but you dont care two hoots about that so you dont make the connection.
Yet I would not belittle or laugh at someone who genuinely does it out of ignorance. Just share with them that a sola scriptura approach does not need icons or images. Just faith in the blood of Jesus.
Hey sorry if I sound strong. But its an opportunity to tell you what we believe. As opposed to erroneous assumptions about all Christians.
So do I. Did I not make that clear?
But, when I view it as superstition, I am stereotyping christians.
And presumably I am just imagining all the jewelry shops full of crosses and all the people I see wearing them? This image is not displayed in all the churches around me and there is not a whole culture based around lighting candles and selling little glass jars with candles in.
And it is not being pushed more aggressively lately because of the influx of people wearing full religious clothing (a different cult to the christian one) and making their women walk two paces behind them. No - not going on.
Still - like I said earlier, the dinosaur thing makes me not interested in looking at your cult. Sorry. I just do not think I could bang my head against a big enough wall to be able to swallow Jesus riding a dino. I presume He did ride dinos right?
Why else would god have created dinos if not to be ridden by Us?
No just stereotyping me.
In the same way you cant speak for all atheists, I cant speak for all christians.
The shades of difference. The diversity. Very important.
For example many christians believe in old-earth theory like you. Yet some of them may wear crosses.
The topic of the thread is wrong. Atheists are not mad, just different. Very different.
And there are religions that dont believe in god like christians but think the annunaki used genetic engineering to create homo sapiens from chimps DNA combined with something else. A religion called nuabian moor or something. Is that what you freemasons believe?
Sorry , still tryin to understand Google and how I earn , where it goes , and who gets what, my score n hubs seem to ok and no clicks...anyway sorry ...
Dinosaurs...yes I believe they and man existed together , at least for some of the time.
Oops you want evidence...
I dont have much ,and I dont base my faith on evidence but I like researching all the same
Not really what I had read n learned a few years ago , but sounds good to me
Mark, I must say, this is the first productive comment I have seen you make on any of my threads. Sincerely, Thank You for your thoughts. You have knowledge to add when you let the arrogance go. Thank You.
You say "something" triggered our self-awareness, what in your idea triggered this? It is very humble of you to say that you do not know what triggered this. I also do not know as I agree that religion does not know. I also reject religions "theory" of life.
If you claim to say human mind is evolution without science of proof, this would be claiming to know, right?
I am not attacking anyone that doesn't share my belief. I don't want anyone to share my belief. This would be a contradiction to my idea of individualism.
Well, you just let me know when you can stop being so condescending and I will be happy to move forwards.
You cannot accuse someone of being mad "with respect". It's incredibly rude.
I made the comment that the post was a generalization. I can find common ground with struggling to find purpose in life. I appologize to anyone that is too offended to answer the question. Thank You
But is it more rude to accuse someone of being mad "without respect" than with it?
No! They are WISE MEN. We, ATHEISTS don't waste out time on VIRTUAL things.
Here is what your God has to offer you:
But believing in a world without some sort of purpose is a depressing way to view the world.
Athiest -> Believer
This is the natural law of religion. You always see this. Never believer become athiest. So naturally, believers will preach us into believing more than the other way. Wrong question.
I have come with a conclusion that marineairways (hmm, this is ironic) is a flamer. /thread.
lol you insult me as being a flamer, then you get your feelings hurt. It's not my fault that you can't debate your belief as an adult.
So let's add another stick on the mill!
Do you believe that Christians are justified burning witches?
I think I should start a thread counting how many threads are on fire. I think HubPages forums has the record, just below 4chan forums.
I believe all life evolved, however, I believe there is seperation in the evolution of human life.
When the animal/human mind seperated to a complexity "above" other animal minds capabilities. I do not know how/when, I can only speculate.
Humans have the power to reason :)plan ,analyse and speculate.
My dog learns by cause and effect, (rewards) and training. Instinct. ( no committe meetings for him) lol
Plus humans have morals.
Marine , do you mean mad as in loony or mad as in angry,because I certainly notice anger and cynacism alot from a non-beleiver directed at Christians.
Personally I love sharing things that Christ has done for me ,but if someone else doesnt want to hear it ,no problem.
Creation has evolution as in rotating and adaptation ,but mankind is still trying to find the missing link,so I like millions of others know it will always be just a theory.
Intellectual minds always try to make Jesus fit into their understanding of logic ,it doesnt work ,so they find solutions that fit their questions instead.
For example I had a neighbor once who always imagined she was ill, and spent hundreds of dollars visiting doctors ,and trying new medicines ,from everything to dry skin to hiccups, anyway eventually she found someone who believed her theories and fed her all kinds of mumbo jumbo.
My point being that if we doubt persistantly and just want our answers to be right , eventually we can find someone to support our delusions.
There are some great debaters out there for both sides (not Hubpages sadly) and they do show respect and maturity when discussing the topic ,which is always I think mature and shows strong self esteem values.
I can find common ground with the struggle to find reason/purpose and have been mad before. Simply because I got mad did not make me turn to atheism or religion. I believe neither. If someone is "happy" with closed debate to their belief, more power to them. To each their own. Thank You
I don't get all the controversy. I don't believe in God, others do. There is not "grouped belief" there for me. As long as people don't constantly try and force their beliefs on me or keep telling me I am wrong, I don't care.
I'm tired of all these atheist thread in the religion forum. I think we have discussed it to death...
I agree with you 100% UW and Im a beleiver ,but seems to me if it cant be discussed (any topic) then its bickering and non productive .
Actually we see other threads closed ,but not these ones, strange that?
I applaud you for your individual belief. I simply find it strange why some that critsize others belief for lack of debate will not debate their different belief. It is hypocritical to me. Thank You
What would you like to debate? If atheists are mad or not?
Yes, and whether there is reason or purpose of life.
I think you make your own reason or purpose in life.
If I came close to following one set philosophy it would be Existentialism which is "a philosophy concerned with finding self and the meaning of life through free will, choice, and personal responsibility."
I don't think there's a purpose on life. You should live the best you can
and it's not important where do we come from, but where are we going....
religion debates takes you nowhere
evolution debates as well
I'm not beginng a debate here, cause i have to go. but i felt in the need to say what I think. Have a nice week-rnd !
I hope you have a safe and laughter filled week-end tantrum!!
good for you!! n can ya pick me up some eggs ,ive run out ta.lol
Don't understand aussie slang ..i'm from other planet...anyway,,
Religion takes you nowhere. I don't understand why people still participate in these threads.
Religion takes you nowhere. I don't understand why people still participate in these threads.
I disagree. Some religious are very happy in life with their belief. Is not the point of life to be happy in belief?
Isn't the reason for life to be the best you can be within yourself? Wouldn't that make a person happy; to be happy with who they are and what they do, regardless of what it is they do? Why is there the need for belief?
Some/Many need belief or purpose to be happy? How can someone be happy not knowing what the reason or purpose is? Seems kinda blind to me.
It may interest you to know then, that I have great purpose and motivation, I know where I am going, why I am going there, and have love in my life everyday just like other lucky people, I just do not have a god, and that does make me happier than I would otherwise be.
That is truly excellent to hear. I believe this is the ultimate goal to find individual purpose whether it's through any particular belief or not.
So being the best you can be is not reason enough?
Being the best I can is a good reason and motivation tool. Reason enough? No, too many unanswered questions. Why do I want to do my best? Why don't I just follow a pattern of nature as other animals and live without a conscious? Is there a reason why I have a conscious and other animals haven't evolved a conscious? This is the part I don't understand.
The way I see it the questions are not that hard. To behave in a most humane way, to be good to your fellow man is logical, and can be arrived at by what I see as awareness. Conscience is not consciousness. If we are fully conscious of the effects of our actions, we can then control them accordingly with little moral effort.To be moral is simply to be fully aware of your actions and outcomes.
I agree. I don't understand why "we" are the only life in evolution to have these complexities of thought. Why are there questions/answers? Why not just follow natures design as other animals? Why are we seperated in mind from other life is the part i'm asking. Why are we the only life that can teach/learn information from generation to generation when other life can't? I would like to know if there is reason behind the differences.
-Because doing your best and being the best you can be is what makes you feel good. And not doing the best you can makes one feel unfulfilled and incomplete.
-Chose not to follow a pattern of nature. You do not have to mimic everyone around you, including animals. It requires willpower.
-On a forum such as this, absolute proof is not going to be produced. Thru science you will learn the physical differences from bones and brains to DNA. If anything unexplainable is labeled "God" then expect morons in the soup.
PS: In my experience if purpose is to fulfill the agenda of something external, it's f*cked.
Well that is probably true of a hub that is insulting in it's very title.
How about another one. "Are those who believe in god mad?" Is that ok then?
You are free to post it Ernest , its a free world
wouldnt bother me in the least ,ive seen worse
its just a title ,if ya put my name on it ,then I might cry ahhhhh...but no I wouldnt take it personally....
thats why I dont understand the sensitivity of some atheists, is it paranoia do ya think , to think every Christian is trying to save them ? lol (theyre not)
I understand that Eaglekiwi, there are two things that bother non religious people. Making assumptive statements with negative connotations for us, (my way or the highway} and including us in god concepts like sin. It seems to always escape religionists that we do not hold with their belief to be any type of proof.
Well probably what most disappoints me are non-believers who lump Christians all in the same boat.
I am sure that you are an individual as I am too.
And I have met Christians that I didnt particularly like either or I just didnt want to be around.
Its just wrong though to make a statement (anyone) and not expect a response ,its arrogant to think any one group should have the ultimate final say,then end it with a cry of wolf or insult....like kids do , he said ,she said etc.
all the one liners would be a hub in itself lol
Great statement. I don't see why "anyone" is defensive and closed to debate of their belief. All belief should be open to debate.
Ok Earnest, to be fair, I will do that one after this one.
I'm happy as long as believers and non believers do not debate on religion.
So everyone should be closed to debate? Sounds religious. You sure you are atheist?
No, debating is good. But religious debating is just pointless. No party is going to go anywhere, because the conclusion is already decided. Sounds dumb. You sure you are intelligent enough to debate?
"Pam"da", no, I am no where close to your intelligence level.
And your title is "ARE ATHIEST MAD?"... Hmm... where's the plural? I'm sure you have another excuse for that huh?
You believe there is no reason or purpose for anything, does me making "Athiest" plural really matter?
Because I want to.
And that makes me delighted. You cannot control what I want to do. I'm not violating anything right here. And you can't do anything about it. And you can stop talking about my name. This thread still sounds dumb. But I'm not of any intelligence level here, like all of you. Humans are dumb. That includes you, marinealways.
And I believe there is a purpose for me to not believe in God.
All the evolutionally assumptions are baseless, you cant assume a closed system and you expect others to believe in you.
True sceintists are now discovering that our lives have nothing to do with chance.
I've heard many Christians say they believe in evolution. This is just an oxymoron.
Perhaps this is not the same for all atheists but I've always thought there was no universal purpose or reason for life. Religious people/believers in God, presumably thing that the point of life is to serve god, or to be a good person in order to get to heaven, or something similar. So it makes sense that a non-believer would not see these purposes and thus have no purpose.
This is NOT the same as giving up on finding a purpose, or not being able to find one. They 'know' that there isnt one. That doesnt mean that nothing matters. It makes the decisions we make and the things we do in this world are even more important because that is ALL that matters. You find your own purpose in life (mine is just to be happy).
I have an idea. Why don't we all surrender? Then there won't be any of this sh it now would there? Hmm?
Jeez pandaman it's been thirteen minutes already!
Not really. You attack people, ignore questions posed, occasionally make a condescending remark and then tell us what you believe and by extension, what we must believe. This is not really debating.
You are not sure if you have a purpose:
but you are pretty sure that if there is no purpose, then it is not possible to be happy:
And anyone who has decided there is not a purpose must be mad because of this:
Then you decide that there is a purpose and people should live with this purpose in mind:
and you know what it is:
And the purpose seems to be finding a purpose.
This is hard to debate with because you are not really making any sense - unless you are just looking for some company?
Being as condescending as you are is not really condusive to a discussion or debate either.
But - as you know, the purpose of life is to find a purpose, so I am not really sure that it is reasonable to throw a divine being in there, as this all seems pretty pointless.
If ideas lead to the science you base your idea of logic on, how is any idea or belief pointless?
You say I ignore questions, I have tried to answer every question posed to "me" on the thread. Where was you response when I asked you of the "self-awareness" or was you too busy looking for my mitakes to see that post?
If you are happy in your individual life without a purpose, what makes you happy in life? Finding others mistakes?
You ask me if i'm looking for company? I said this would be hypocritical of my belief of individualism. Are you not reading the posts?
You are wrong on your assumptions. If you would read my previous posts, we wouldn't be going in circles.
Once again, I appreciate when you add "your" ideas rather than nit pick others errors. Thank You.
If you are consumed with the logic of the known, how can you expect to open your mind to the unknown?
Don't you mean you appreciate it when I am not being arrogant?
Now - address the question I posed. You accused me of making "assumptions."
What assumptions was I making.
I would also appreciate it if you addressed the circular nature of all the statements you have made - which make it clear that you believe something, but are not really sure what to believe.
I have not said you made a mistake. In attempting to see what your reasoning was, I collected these quotes to discover that there is not really any other than the fact that you think anyone who does not have a purpose must be mad. But you do not seem to know what that purpose is, or even if there is one.
So, after reading what you have written, I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that there is not a purpose.
What do you think?
Yes, I appreaciate when you write without arrogance also.
On the assumption, I am speaking of your thoughts on evolution. You sound so sure when you write that we have evolved to our human mind capabilities without intervention, yet science does not show this.
On my belief, I believe there is a creator/creators to all creations. I would not be born without a mom and a father or by intervention, correct? To say God/Gods would be confusing because I do not believe the religious idea for defining the unknown nor do I fully believe evolution to our current minds capability. Again, I leave all belief open to debate. I do not rule out anything of the unknown with purely logic. Logic is not always found with scientific facts when something is unknown.
I simply do not understand how someone is happy without seeing a purpose. This is why I ask the question. I don't know what my individual purpose is, but I don't give up searching for it.
Just because I haven't found "my" purpose yet doesn't mean I will not find it. The only way I wouldn't have a chance of finding purpose is if I stopped looking.
Well, I sure would appreciate it if you lost the condescending tone.
I see no evidence for an "intervention." Do you have some perhaps that leads you to assume that there was one?
I know what you believe. There is no basis for this other than, "well, there must have been a creator, so therefore there was."
Which is no sort of argument at all.
I have found that I do not need there to be a purpose to be happy in myself. This is the best I can come up with.
Once I accepted that I am no more or less "important," than any other animal and are part of something far bigger than myself, I became content to be that and enjoy my life. Which I do.
Your current unhappiness seems to stem from the fact that you have not found your purpose, and you are holding on to the idea that there must be one - otherwise people must be mad and unhappy. Which if you think about it is pretty ironic and self fulfilling.
What I was doing by showing you all the list of circular statements you have made was to lead you to the piss-easy answer that most people go with.
But you have rejected that one in favor of starting your own religion.
lol I must say, for you to have so much knowledge in some areas, you are clueless in others. You claim I am starting my own religion? This is a huge contradiction if you understood "individualism". Individualism is seperation of grouped belief.
You say your human life is no more important than another animal life. You have countless interactions every day and your words/actions can make a huge impression, good or bad to everyone your words reach. It seems you choose to make a bad impression by finding mistakes rather than educating on the knowledge and ideas you have. This is contradiction to intelligence.
I am truly happy that you are content and happy of life without a creators purpose. I am not content with the unknown.
Is to say I was created without a creator/creators a "logical" statement? I don't think so in my idea of logic.
Again, Thank You for your ideas.
Just cannot lose the condescension huh?
To say that you were created is to assume you were created in the first place.
I know that you are not content with the unknown. That much is obvious.
Why don't you just assume a creator with a purpose for you instead?
Not a religion - oh no.
Now who is the clueless one?
Let me know when you have written your first bible.
You accuse me of starting a religion and expect me not to fire back when I have already said numerous times how important my belief is of individual belief and happiness.
If you do not believe you were created, how did you come to be? Please explain.
If you prove me wrong that a creation needs a creator, my belief may change. I haven't seen any evidence that a creation can come without a "creator/creators" or "intervention". I assume only the logical in my idea of logic which can change though debate.
How would you have been created if your mother wouldn't have gotten pregnant?
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by logic?
Leaping to the only "logical" conclusion and then asking some one to prove a negative?
Please prove first, in a logical fashion why everything that exists needs a creator?
Please stop calling everything a "creation," and assuming a creator.
I personally came to be through a process known as "evolution," which you subscribe to, but have seen fit to now interject a creator.
Unfortunately, evolution as a process and scientific theory does not need one. In fact, if you "assume " one - the theory is no longer valid.
Now - are you now saying that we evolved "naturally," but the creator started it and had an ultimate goal in mind - in which case, you do not understand the process.
Or are you saying that we evolved naturally and then there was an intervention by a divine being?
I am a little confused.
I see no evidence of a creator - nor have you made a logical argument that there is one. Your only argument has been, "there must have been a creator, therefore there was one."
Do you even know what the theory of evolution says?
My idea of logic is what I know as truth. It is my truth that "me"/"life" needed my parents to be born, my "creators". It is my logic to say that "I" was my parents creation. What life do you know of that doesn't have a creator?
I do not know all of the science behind evolution. The part i'm interested in is the part that you call "self-awareness" if you would like to explain.
I think evolution was possibly intervened for our minds "self-awareness" compared to other known life. Again, I leave this open to debate.
Well, it wouldn't hurt to do a little research of your own as you seem to be discarding things that you have not investigated.
I was "created," by my parents,
therefore everything was "created."
therefore there must be a creator.
therefore there must be a purpose.
Nothing logical here. Sorry.
You were born, not created. If you did some research to understand how evolution works - the fact for example, that new species arise from other older species through a combination of natural selection, environmental changes, and other forces, perhaps you might rid yourself of this notion.
Now - if your parents sat down one night and said, "I know - let's create a new being. What color eyes do you think we should choose? How tall? Let's draw up a blueprint and see what we think." maybe you could call that "creating."
On the other hand, if you think about the process of this "creation." You.
Two people have sex. 9 months later a baby emerges. In this case you.
Now apply that level of input to this invisible creator that must exist.
At what point do you have to change the level of input to come up with something different to the way you were "created.?
I never said, "there must be a purpose". I said the opposite, I don't know if theres purpose. I am open to any ideas you have of how something comes from nothing. How someone comes from no one?
It is unproven that humans came from chimps. Do you know the answer to why our dna does not match with chimps? I do not. Some say we evolved from Africa, yet no fossils have been found to prove this. Others say we are evolution of previous humans and are the result of multi-regional evolution.
Are 2 parents making a child not a creation of new life?
I have no interest in discussing this any further. Your ignorance of evolution is obvious - yet you are arguing against it.
Please do some research on the subject and I will be happy to discuss the exact specifics with you when you have done so. Merely repeating questions you have seen being bandied around is not debating.
Sorry - I do not know how your invisible creator was created from nothing.
Do you care to prove how we evolved from chimps to humans?
Are you too lazy to find any information?
So you are just a troll huh? Nicely done. You had me fooled into thinking you were actually looking for some answers. Oh well, I fall for them occasionally.
I'm not hiding anywhere. I asked you to tell me how we came from chimps and became self-aware. You didn't give an idea or explanation.
I have given you an answer, which you have apparently failed to see (not about being self-aware but about the chimp thing). Is this perhaps because you are actually more interested in just slating all atheists than you are in find out the answers to your questions. I'm sure it wouldnt take two minutes to get an answer if you googled it!
You don't find the answers to life in google, lady !!
Well actually ....
I meant you could learn about the process of evolution, how we evolved (or supposedly evolved) from monkey to human, via google. But you probably could find the answers to life in google, if you looked hard enough!
I presume by your answer that you're very young. Well... Nobody's perfect 1
I'll presume from your answer that you didn't realise I was joking. I didnt realise that it was youth that prevented people from reaching perfection. At least I know now that one day I will actually be perfect.
Just bloody Google it
The chimp is not looking for answers. Sadly - had me fooled. Oh well...............
I don't know what you mean, "I had you fooled", how is this? You still have not given me an idea or information of how/when/where human self-awareness came from.
I answered that question several pages ago.
Apparently that is not enough as you are uncomfortable with uncertainty.
And as you are too lazy to do any work for yourself, I decline to answer it again.
The only thing I saw you mention was something about an arguement when art developed. How is this an explanation?
Seriously, I am done. If you cannot even be bothered to go back and see where you thanked me for being honest, well...... You are never going to get anywhere if you expect others to do all the work for you. rest happy that there is a logical creator and you have a purpose.
Maybe it will drop out of the sky soon?
I thanked you for being honest and humble on such a rare occasion when you said you "do not know" "that you can only guess" of when human mind developed self-awareness. I'm asking for your guess, I don't expect you to know fact of the unknown.
lol If that answer is on google, there would be no need for scientific proof. There would be no debate if the answer was already proven. If you say there was a middle breed that mated with the chimp, where did the middle breeds self-awareness come from?
OMG that is sooo not what I said. And also, I don't mean that google just magically has all the answers and can explain things that science can't! I'm sure there are some scientific papers online that explain evolution a lot better than I can, and can tell you how we are (supposedly) related to monkeys. You don't seriously need to be told how Google works do you?
If you can find the ultimate answer to life on google to explain evolution of how the human evolved from the chimp and why our dna does not match, be my guest. Please post the link when you find the answer.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Google does not act as PROOF! You cannot find the ultimate answer to life on Google. Just different peoples' theories on the answer to life. You can read about the THEORY of evolution. Why people think that humans came from some kind of primate. It is not THE definitive answer in life. It is what some people (like me and Mark) believe is the case.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolu … -genetics/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolu … tSelCulInh
The last one is probably easier for you to understand.And is also exactly what I said in my first post, which you convieniently misunderstood. The first two are about evolution generally.
Thank You for posting. I'm not done reading it yet. I just wanted to post this paragraph for Mark. I copied it out of the 3rd link you posted.
"Additionally, the evolution of man from ape-like ancestors is often argued on the grounds of comparative anatomy within the fossil record. Yet, the fossil record indicates more stability in the forms of species than slow or even drastic changes, which would indicate intermediate stages between modern species. The "missing links" are missing. And unfortunately, the field of paleoanthropology has been riddled with fraudulent claims of finding the missing link between humans and primates, to the extent that fragments of human skeletons have been combined with other species such as pigs and apes and passed off as legitimate."
Mark said to me earlier that there "is no missing link".
Like I also said - cutting and pasting questions that other religionists have asked instead of doing any work for yourself is not really debating.
There is no missing link. If you (apparently are) too lazy to do any research, I would suggest sticking with your "logical" "truth" - much easier than actually doing any work........
Go with the creator and the need for a purpose. I know a good book.....
I think I was being too nice to everyone. Everyone stopped posting.
Why do you have to find a purpose? Can't you just live? In the end we are all animals with a small brain, we thing big, full of imagination.
from that imagination comes religion, and from religion all the horrible things that happen in this world. I chose to be and be happy! waiting for my end without regrets
I prefer to have purpose and reason for doing things. If you are happy, don't you have a purpose or reason for being happy?
Living and enjoying life is enough And learning from others, and understanding...
I do these things and I highly enjoy learning from others. This still does not show me purpose/reason to existance.
There's none ! So have a nice week-end and stop worrying
What goes around comes around comes all the way back around, yeah
My life is brilliant.
Your life's a joke.
You're just pathetic.
You're always broke.
Your homemade Star Trek uniform
really ain't impressing me.
You're suffering from delusions of
Just thought I'd interject here .... if you want to go ahead with the 'everything was created therefore there is a creator' argument, then you have to admit that God was created. Who created God? Who created the one that created God? etc. At some point you're going to say there was something that just wasn't created. But if that's an exception then why can't there be other exceptions, like the universe. And BANG! we don't need God!
(substitute for God who/whatever you want to believe created the world)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what makes sense to me is that we don't literally come from the chimps (monkeys) that currently exist. We (like them) evolve from some kind of primate that is no longer in existence. We evolved in a different way to them hence why we have different DNA, but we come from the same original primate?
This TRASH Thread doesn't deserve to be read thoroughly. Something REAL would have deserved it.
And you're a professional blogger ? I wonder!.....
Do you have any doub't? I wonder if there is any relationship between Blogging and being Atheist.
I need to make good use of my valuable time rather than wasting it here.
Have a good date with your so called God.
I don't believe in God either! I didn't like the way you present things, if u know what I mean
I apologize. We engineers just believe in REAL SCIENCE. Maybe my education has something to do with me being an Atheist.
Plz do not take anything personally. I normally avoid these kind of negative arguments, but this time I was not able to resist.
Sorry once again if I hurt you in any possible way.
He apologized... that's o.k. 4 me
I think we should leave it.anyway he's not around
You say you are educated yet you come on the last page of the thread making assumptions without reading the thread.
How have your assumptions done so far?
Do you often make comments without reading? You sound judgemental as if you are religious.
My own personal theory is that there is a lot about the brain that we don't know and can't (yet) understand. And that the answer to a lot of these questions lies in the answer to this. Along with where consciousness (self awareness) comes from and what people call the soul. I think that the brain is key and that while there are no answers yet, the lack of answers is not a good reason to believe in God.
My oh my, what do we have here? There are still atheist in the world? Wow I guess it's true “you can lead an atheist to evidence, but to can't make them think.” At least agonistic cling to Latin and admit they are ignorant and don't know, but to deny completely that there is a creator takes a giant leap of faith.
Here some more evidence for you atheist, but weather or not you think is up to you.
There are videos so you don't have to read, atheist. I'm not the author of the videos, but we agree on these truths. Good Luck atheist, and once your evolutionary, by chance, no purpose and no Creator fairy tale have been shattered pick up the Bible. OUT!
BTW If you view the vids and still don't get it, just admit you are BLIND BY CHOICE!!
If this is your idea of an advertisement for God, you are off your rocker! :LOL:
And the sheep graze blindly in their pastures
To the original question. Yea they are mad their house of cards is failing due to the lack of foundation.
The atheist is like a man on an island who sees a massive brick wall(earth) and he can’t or won’t grasp that someone put the wall there so he begins to gather sticks(science) to match the brick wall, sticks can be useful and do serve a good purpose, but when being used to match the creator of the wall they're merely just sticks, but the atheist man becomes obsessed with the sticks, but whenever the wind blows(a new theory, change of opinion, or new science ie different looking sticks) the mans sticks fall, but forever determined to deny that someone created the wall, the sticks, the island, and the man, he continues to play with sticks, and if anyone even tries to tell them the truth, about the one who created it ALL the man yells, swears, mocks, ultimately revealing hes got nothing. and will continue to have nothing until he acknowledges the truth. What sad and empty life for the atheist always learning, but never able to acknowledge the truth.
As I see you've known a bunch of stupid atheists, or maybe you didn't understood them ? I've never been in that island, i've never seen that wall I'm a happy person with no problems... I don't believe in God... So what's your problem ? Nothing 2 do this week-end ?
I think people grasp on to religion and a higher power out of fear of death. People can't believe this life is all we get so they create a greater purpose and an after life to believe in to deal with the fact that we don't live forever. This is just my opinion. I don't know if there's a higher power or not. I guess this makes me an agnostic. I think there's a force greater than I am that we're all part of, but I don't believe in a divine creator and that should be okay. Why can't people who do believe in God respect the opinions of those of us who do not? Why can't you peacefully hold your own beliefs and let us have ours? I think it's because of the fear of religion falling apart. You have to find followers to validate your beliefs and make sure your dream of defying death lives on. Again, this is just my opinion. I think you need to live and let live and not pass judgment on people who are different from you.
If someone does want to say we evolved from the chimps or a middle breed, it is described as a very slow process. What is the explanation for life not being at different levels of evolution today? Why are there no middle breeds?
What and how could humans evolve 2,000 years from now? Would the human evolve into something else or remain human?
she I assume you mean knows where we are going?
No I dont
I know where Im going though ,so follow me Im not lost
Is ok now you understand why I find your theories so comical
Never mind, we all still happy right?
That's the biggest loada crap I've ever seen in my life. How embarrassing for him!
I also do not understand why we are the only life that can pass information from generation to generation. No other animal is close to our abilities in learning/teaching.
Are you defining information as written knowledge or information saved to a data base?
Instinctual Knowledge is passed onto animals, we are not the only species to do that.
Perhaps compare apples with apples instead of oranges. There is human intelligence and animal intelligence. Maybe animals learn in a better way because if they don't they will be mince meat much faster.
Instinctual knowledge differs in animal compared to human. There is a "huge" gap in between the human ability to teach/learn/pass information from generation to generation comapred to the animal ability. What reason are we superior in our ability to teach and learn other than the instinct we are born with?
I think perhaps you need to have the mind of a dog or a tiger, and compare, to answer that question. If your standpoint is only that of your human one, then how can you say an animal has lesser intelligence or has a lesser ability to teach? An animal's instinctual knowledge appears far superior to ours. In addition to having sharper senses.
The more you see the actions of humans, one could argue our intelligent superiority.
Something can be born with greater instinct with a weaker ability to learn and teach. Which do you think is more advanced? Another form of our superiority is our domination over other life. We are the dominant species. I agree, you can say "some" humans have not evolved from their actions. Was this because they had an animal mind or because they didn't use their human conscious?
The human mind is malleable, similar to an animals mind. Social conditioning, environment and presented opportunities will determine outcomes.
Oh man you atheist are unbelievable, truth is like sunlight only few can stand it.” Psalm 53:1 "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good."
Dumb atheist always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth."
Matthew 7:6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
"NOTE: Truth is precious, Jesus is precious...we must not continuously expose ourselves to people violently opposed to the gospel."
No need to reply, you have chosen your path, now walk it to the end. You chose hopeless end I choose endless hope.
John 15:18-19"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."
Not every fool is an atheist, but every atheist IS A FOOL.
Thank you for always proving.
”you can lead an atheist to evidence, but to can't make them think.”
Ok atheiest keep your failed so called "logic" your sinking foundation a short, tragic road. Drive hard you're almost out of time.
To take a page out of Jack's book - YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH, You need to get Lucifer out from up your back passage, it's blocking your ability to have intelligence. Now go find another forum to entertain your little mind. You're an insult to humanity.
We have the ability to reason. It's questionable however, that the ability to reason is in our best interests considering the state of the union.
What is to be expected of individuals who try to force grouped belief rather than accepting individual belief?
Grazing sheep - an unconscious awareness of the actions of the whole and a blind faith in it. Read about memes.
Thanks for posting. I like the memes idea. The part I still don't understand is how the "memes" evolve so rapidly and transfer from human to human while not coming close in other animal abilities to transfer information. If human relayed memes to chimps, why can chimps not relay the memes to other chimps. This is the part I don't get. Why are we so advanced in learning/teaching compared to other animal life. Are we favored in the meme gene pool?
We have a different understanding of memes. I was referring to the incumbents of memes not being conscious of their surroundings, ie don't think to question anything. There are family memes, corporate memes, religious memes, even the meme of the army. A meme primarily is where you think you have a separate consciousness but are unaware of the undercurrents or uppercurrents that are holding it together; before you know it you are following the rules you didn't know it had. Like to obey certain rules without realizing there are rules. Like a mafia code - 'the family.'
I can see how the influence of a family meme could be passed on through generations. I find this fascinating to see similarities in character traits passed down. Although this is not a science, I am using astrological traits within my family, including parents and grandparents to see similarities. And there are.
Again I think you have to compare apples with apples and not oranges because abilities are transferred in animals and the evolution of animals is to ensure survival of the species. Human intelligence is different to animal intelligence but we do similar things to survive. I think procreation and hunting and gathering is what we have in common more than anything.
There is work on the model of subtle bodies, whereby the etheric body is understood to be that which holds intelligence which could explain the genetic transfer of abilities. It's a massive topic. But it does take a more biological and organic approach and a less intellectual or conscious based or thought based approach. Thanks for making me think here.
Thanks for adding Jewels. Good Conversation. I liked when you were talking about following actions of others without being conscious of what or why you are following it. It's almost robotic in a sense.
lol @ the apples and oranges. I want both! lol
Let's say both humans and the sheep are grazing in the field. All are grazing together sharing the same memes. All of a sudden "1" human leaves the field. How could this 1 human memes differ from the rest of the life grazing in the field? What would trigger the 1 human to make a different choice?
The desire to want more than grass and sex. And where does the desire come from you ask and why are we dissatisfied with only grass and sex? Not enough stimulus? But why do we need more stimulation? You'll not get a rational answer from me. You can find out how but not why. I know that we are wired differently metaphysically which is difficult to relay in a forum. Science has to catch up.
Maybe it takes an irrational answer/idea to lead to the answer of an unknown idea or question. Afterall, when memes was first termed, many probably thought it was an irrational explanation. Yet, many have likely used the memes idea in science.
Lets say the memes do exist. Genes in an energy form, correct? How would physical evolution explain the transfer of memes from generation to generation in only humans?
This is fascinating. Almost like watching the birth of a new religion. Irrational answers are always the best ones for the unanswerable. We almost have enough for the first book.
"1,a) In the beginning *insert deity's name here*. created the universe, paying special attention to the earth, where He/She was planning the final culmination of evolution - Us.
2,b) Using Memes, a little known scientific method of transferring information with energy, *insert diety's name here* made Us self-aware,"
And so on.......
What we need is a Name though. God and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are already taken.
"1,a) In the beginning *creator/creators* created the universe, paying special attention to the earth, where He/She"them" was planning the final culmination of evolution - Us.
2,b) Using Memes, a little known scientific method of transferring information with energy, *creator/creators* made Us self-aware,"
I didn't use "God" or "Flying Spaghetti Monster".
I'm jk, I figured I would have some fun since you typed those for me. You already know that I or anyone else doesn't know these answers. Thats why there are ideas and debate.
The "meme" is from Darwin, not me. Is it intelligent to critcize ideas when you can't prove them false or explain a different idea? Many probably thought the idea of cloning was irrational after the 270 failed tries until the 277 when it finally worked.
Well, seeing as you got upset at the point I was making about you creating your own religion perhaps you understand better now?
The point I was making was that your roundabout set of questions and postulations ending with you being unsatisfied with not having an answer are what leads to religions making up an answer. Now we have the basis for the best money making device known to man.
What is jk?
And yes, I am quite comfortable criticizing ideas when they do not make sense and are based solely on, "I am not satisfied with not having an answer, therefore I will make one up."
I also do not agree with religions answer for the unknown, but I see what you were getting at. I also believe religion is for money/control among other things. Maybe if religion worked with science instead of against, vice versa, there would be more progress to truth. jk = just kidding.
... and in varying degrees we as humans act out of "the human condition" when we choose a belief. Fear is behind much emotion, and fear drives the subconscious to inventions and creative escapes that are in reality only substantiation for the chosen belief.
We need to move well past religion.
Science having already discovered the "death trigger" last year, is open to discover much about life and meaning of existence.
Along with DNA research we can learn quickly through these relatively new established pathways to knowledge that will inform, not pacify.
Thanks for adding Earnest. Agreed that fear is the basis for the majority of belief. The death trigger is pretty interesting. I don't know if I found the right idea that you were talking about. The information I found was talking about a drug that could block thoughts from entering the brain that tell cells to die. Is that right?
We can train our own minds ,and an animal cannot.
He works on reflexes or instinct alone.
I watched a television documentary a few years ago in which female chimpanzees, who were in a group headed by a dominant male, would sneak off and mate with another male outside of the group. They would mate in secrecy as if they knew they were doing wrong. These actions indicates consciousness of guilt by the chimps very similar to human behavior.
The arrogance of human to think they are the only creatures with self awareness.
I guess I have an almost irrational belief in communicating with animals! Partly through loving their abilities. Throughout my life my dogs have certainly known how I was feeling long before humans did.
I can agree that other life has a conscious, although no where close to the complexity of the human conscious in my belief. My question is, could the chimps teach their conscious to the other chimps? I wouldn't think so.
I'm writing a new hub on uncertainty reduction theory in internet communication for the hub challenge. You guys are giving me grist for the mill.
really, what would you lose if you "believe" in something? your intellect? are you dumb if you believe in religion? no, it's what you do that matters.
religion or not, belief or not. atheists claim science as absolute. theists claim the bible or the word of god is absolute. it's all the same.
imo, don't care and don't be labeled.
religion/atheism is not for everyone.
religion gives you a peace of mind. a purpose. physiologically, it doesn't matter.
psychologically, it is helpful. some people just can't handle and can't accept what kind of s**t they are into, thus it is much better and productive if they think positively(with religion).
“Take the life-lie away from the average man and you take away his life.”
— Henrik Ibsen (The Wild Duck)
Very enlightened statement. Thank You for adding.
Yes, very enlightened. An irrational belief cannot possibly cause any harm:
Does 1 = all? I'm sure there are atheist that have killed before for not believing in wrong. This does not make all guilty.
I never said 1 = all. I was just pointing out one instance where an irrational belief that praying to god was the answer instead of proper medical care caused the death of a young girl.
Although, as I mentioned in my infamous evolution vs creation hub, an irrational belief in religion and god, often compromises one's ability to make rational decisions.
What if one believes in religion and lives a good life, helping others, doing good deeds, would the belief still be irrational if it made the person live rational? I agree that a "belief closed to debate" is irrational. I also agree that belief is dangerous when a person sacrifices their individualism to believe another.
I see it rational if someone has a belief, even when I don't agree, as long as that persons belief doesn't intrude anothers. If someone wants to believe a unicorn is their guardian angel and it gives them faith to live and love others, more power to them.
We obviously have different ideas about what "rational" means. I do agree people can believe whatever they like as long as it does not interfere with any one else or do any damage. But belief in a god is necessarily closed to debate. It is not possible to debate with some one because they are closed to the idea that they are wrong because it is impossible to prove a negative. It also requires "giving up one's life (or money) for god," in most religions.
Just look through any of the religion threads to see how any debate goes.
I will admit, one reason I like to post an "Atheism Topic" in the thread, it is to get a science, theory , individual ideas. I do not like seeing bible quotes because I do not believe the bible as divine. I see truth when I read the bible as mans word. I can interpret what I read, I do not need a preacher to teach me what I read. What I read shows mans error, nothing divine.
As far as religion having bad intent, some do, not all. Without people having something to believe in other than reality, what kind of chaos would there be? I think there would be more. Not all, but some need the security of knowing the unknown to live at peace.
I agree with you there. But - let us for argument's sake, take those people who believe it is the word of a god and all true.
Their ability to make a rational decision is compromised. As an example - all the people who have decided that dinosaurs were on the earth at the same time as men. If that is what they believe - how can the now make rational decisions about anything else? When the call to fight god's war comes, they must follow. Read any history book.
I think there would be less. Our culture suggests this idea. Encourages it even. "You need saving." "You are going to hell if you do not believe." "Life is not worth living unless there is a purpose." Spreading and evolving using memes.
And I think you meant Dawkins not Darwin when you mentioned them last time.
I'm still stuck on whether or not I think "no" religion would be good for humanity. I agree there is no logic and countless contradictions in religion. I think religion can be life changing for some for the better when they pick and choose the good parts to live by. I also think religion often fights against absolute truth of science. What would happen if every individual realized that there could be no divine purpose/reason for life? I think it would be pretty insane.
With true individuals being the minority, this shows that many prefer to be followers. What happens when you take away their leadership and belief all of a sudden? Force followers to become individuals. It would likely hold every individual accountable for his/her actions without using religious belief as an excuse. I guess the question would be, who can agree to disagree, a group of true individuals or a group of true religionist's? We definately know that an individual and the religious can't come to agreements on most occasions. I certainly guarantee that government doesn't want religion to disappear. Could you imagine an entire country of individuals with followers in the minority? Would we ever agree on anything if we were mostly individuals and not followers?
You are right, Dawkins, get those 2 mixed up. ty.
I wanted to add. When I speak of religions getting along, I'm speaking of those based on the same belief. I agree that different religions have had many irrational acts from disagreements when based on different belief.
You say that as though it is not pretty insane at the moment. The religious are always blaming our dropping belief in a god as the blame for all the world's ills - as though it was all roses, and slavery and all the other things we have changed were some how better. "The good old days," of slavery and religious wars. Not really understanding their argument.
This is where the memes come in again. We are actively encouraged to be followers and fed the things we should follow almost from birth rather than choosing what to follow. Religion and nationalism - often combined together.
I think a society that took a more active role in it's own well being instead of leaving it all up to the governments and churches would be a better one. Perhaps we would actually develop some genuine morals instead of parroting the ones we have that no one really believes anyway.
Thinking for yourself is the best place to start.
Thank You. Excellent genuine thoughts you added. Much Appreciated. I think we could have hit the next stage of human evolution. Maybe the next stage is when the majority of us individualize rather than follow. I do not know the outcome. I believe we are our own destruction as a whole without leadership. Is it really safe for a majority of individuals to lead themselves? Maybe for your or I, how about for irresponsible individuals? Could we expect people to rely on themselves and succeed as a whole without self destructing?
You said that we are fed from birth about information for society to have a follower belief from government and religion. Very true. Why is this? You and I both know they do this for control. They do not want "debate". When debate happens, they lose control/power of a "grouped" belief/structure when people start to individualize from the grouped belief.
Maybe learning ourselves and then thinking for ourselves is a better place to start. Thank You.
An important distinction. However, there are some similarities. Both are dead, but one is still moving. You guess which one....
True science and faith can go together.
Science and religion have been married to great success of humanity.
Ben Carson the world famous scientist who performed many remarkable surgeries including separation of siamese twins, is a bible believing christian. Yes a Seventh-day Adventist too.
Google him and read his books.
let's not clump all religious people in the same category shall we? a sick mind is sick, no matter what he believes in. a crime is a crime, let's not put guilt and prejudice into it and easily point fingers just because he belonged to a group of people.
if a person cannot think outside his conditioning, there's no help for him.
I did not clump all religious people in the same category. I was just pointing out one current example of damage done by holding certain irrational beliefs. Human history is littered with such examples. I pointed him out because he chose to pray to god instead of seeking medical attention for his daughter and was a good example to counter your claims. I could probably find millions of such examples if I chose to.
I understand why people choose to believe in religions. That is what they are for. "Be happy with your lot, because it will all be better after you die."
Hi glendoncaba ! Earlier you put me in the same bag as mark knowles. Even I agree in almost all that he says, I though that was a tough one. Right ?. well. if I was laughing it's because I think this kind of argument s are pointless and silly. You are not going to convince me about your Jesus, I'm not going to convince you about my rational atheism. And anyway, your comments ( 'your' meaning religious people in this forum) about us being sinful and doomed to eternal hell or saying that you are praying for us, poor sinners that have to be saved, aren't they irrespectful as well?
We are human beings with brains, just like you. For my part i must say I respect all religions, and I come from a christian fasmily ,so I know what you feel. This said, my point of view is, as an atheist said once : ' I'm an atheist, thank God !' I leave you and God bless you if he exists
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