Individualism vs Atheism and Fundamentalism

1. 59

   JonTutorposted 14 years ago

   Last night there was a debate.... this topic "would you marry atheist".... I said... I'm not atheist... I'm "individualist"....  experienced for myself.... this Budhist technique..  http://sakya.org/meditationbeg.html ... relaxes me...also learned simple breathing technique from my Indian boss....both useful for me.
   
   My question for some atheists here.. who come on religious topics.... Do atheists have a problem with any religious practice?
   
   My question for very religious folks.... Do you believe other beliefs and practices wrong?

   replyreport
   1. 57

      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Only the insistence that everyone else needs to join up and if you do not, you are somehow inferior. Apart from that.....
      
      Knock yourself out. Whatever works for you.

      replyreport
      1. 59

         JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I'm not gonna insist anyone..... IMO everybody is equal... My belief.... practice whatever makes you peaceful and happy.

         replyreport
   2. 65

      SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Jon,
      
      If you have read any of my hubs, most are "geared toward" the unity in our diversity across religions, philosophies and belief systems (one of which I believe is being an atheist).
      
      I basically believe that because each of us is a unique individual, that has had unique experiences, we each have unique needs to be met to follow our path...so how could anyone lovingly ditz anyone's path choices?
      
      But, of course, I have found what I believe are universal structures that all are to eventually obtain/realize, albeit in their own unique way and time.

      replyreport
   3. 59

      marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I believe all "grouped" belief to be wrong. I consider all grouped belief to be a contradiction of absolute individualism. I also believe all belief should be open to debate without arrogance or ego to find true individual belief.

      replyreport
   4. 86

      Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I have a problem with religious practice if it is (a) harmful to people's psychological or physical well-being or (b) if its believers are themselves intolerant of other religious beliefs, other spiritualities or the absence of belief.
      
      Otherwise, most atheists are tolerant of religions that are willing to live and let live.

      replyreport
      1. 59

         JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Do  you think.... individual experiences / techniques like..... Breathing/Meditation/Yoga..... "harmful" practices?

         replyreport
         1. 60

            rcisophieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            One thing you need to have clear - meditation and yoga are not religious techniques. They are religion independent in their essence. The confusion in understandable because usualy we connect them to Budhism and also to Hinduism.
            Buda used and teached meditation as one of the paths to enlightment, in our days there are several new approaches religion free (check De Rose's Yoga). There are too many examples.
            
            Another thing, meditation as a technic of instrospection and self-awareness is also pressent in Christianity, for example, and in all that as times for pause, prayer and also 'reflection'.
            
            And why do you put Individualism VS Atheism and Fundamentalism?
            There is a lot of fundamentalism in and outside religion, so...?

            replyreport
   5. 59

      Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      i think we are accountable for everything we knew in our conscience and only each person knows what that is. some need to be taught it is wrong to steal, others know it without being told. everyone seems to have a conscience, some chose to ignore it and act poorly towards others, but they protest if the same thing happens to them.
      i think that if you disregard your conscience long enough it becomes seared and you are able to do all manner of ill will towards anyone or anything at anytime.
      i think believers in God and unbelievers both do this.
      i think that if you believe in God you have no need to toot your horn about it,
      others will see your behavior and tell you they see Him in you.

      replyreport
      1. 61

         tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

           Nice religious brainwashing !   Very becoming!

         replyreport
         1. 59

            Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            i am sorry, can you elaborate on that for me please?
            is was talking ones conscience.
            did i say something wrong?

            replyreport
            1. 61

               tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                 Good and Evil is the main 'scenario' of all religions. All the rules are based in those 2 concepts.People are  driven to behave 'good ' just as you say, for people 2 c God in them. I think that's a misconcept due to religious brainwashing. Sorry It's my believe. I would explain at large, but I don't have the patience.

               replyreport
2. 63

   Mishaposted 14 years ago

   Oh, three isms in one title. You are killing me Jon

   replyreport
   1. 59

      JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I try.

      replyreport
      1. 63

         Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         LOL
         
         As for your question - i don't really care, as long as you don't shove it down my throat or otherwise try to interfere with my life.

         replyreport
         1. 59

            JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I don't..... but for my life.... my choice to seek.... I'm still exploring.

            replyreport
3. 63

   Mishaposted 14 years ago

   I know you don't. I did not really mean you personally.

   replyreport
   1. 59

      JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks.... I just wanna know....Even my step dad (atheist) is cool.... only my conservative catholic folks have issues... learning meditation... I'm not converting.

      replyreport
4. 61

   Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

   Of course I believe some other religious teachings are wrong, and even a few religious practices. That being said, other people believe I am wrong in my religious beliefs and practices too, and they are just as entitled to their beliefs as I am to mine. As long as we disagree in the right way and for the right reasons, I can get along.
   
   As for atheists having a problem with religion, I unfortunately know too many who consider anyone else following or otherwise expressing their religion in their presence as shoving religion down their throats. I know some people who are very uncomfortable if they see me wearing a cross or taking a brief moment to silently give thanks before I eat. I saw some people at a ball game react with offense when they saw a player make the Sign of the Cross before going up to bat. And I had the misfortune of encountering atheists who very openly look down their noses at religious people and refuse to stop when their arrogance is pointed out to them.

   replyreport
   1. 57

      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      LOL
      
      I must admit I have started taking offense to public statements of an irrational beliefs system. Particularly christian and muslim irrational belief systems.
      
      Mainly because I have read the bible - and I know what it says about unbelievers.
      
      I assume you have also?
      
      I take offense at people calling me a fool for not believing.
      
      Wouldn't you?
      
      Of course - that could just be arrogance on my part.
      
      I mean - I cannot even say I do not have a belief without people insisting that I do.
      
      Gets a little irritating after the ten thousandth person says - "oh - that is the same as me believing there is a god. You did not think about it and make a decision - you just believe - the same as me." (see above)

      replyreport
      1. 0

         James Agbogunposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You must know that god is not God.

         replyreport
         1. 57

            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Like I said - get's a little irritating being told what I "must know."

            replyreport
            1. 59

               marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You must be saved.

               replyreport
5. 0

   pgrundyposted 14 years ago

   Hi Jon. I think that irrational and/or intolerant attitudes are  found in every quarter--religious (all of them), 'spiritual' (religion-lite), atheist, and individualist--whatever a person calls him or herself, we can all be jerks if we want to, and we can all put our brains on hold if we want to.
   
   So much of what is happening in the world today is IMO the result of a refusal to live and let live, and the rest of it is just bad manners. The internet has given people the idea that bullying others intellectually by calling them names and finishing their thoughts for them (as in, well, if you think THAT then you also think THIS) is admirable. It's not.
   
   I consider myself an agnostic person with faith in what I don't know. The fruits of knowledge are not always positive. I use religious practices when they seem practical. Meditation strikes me as a very practical religious practice, so why shouldn't I use it? It's useful! Private ritual (some would call it magic) is also sometimes useful so I do use it. What I have a great distaste for are people who want to start a war or metaphysics or religious dogma. What a waste.
   
   If a religion requires me to park my brain at the door, I'm not interested.

   replyreport
6. 60

   phonereversetraceposted 14 years ago

   All beliefs are illusions; the truth of reality, or "God," cannot be pigeonholed into a belief or mental thought construct.
   
   It simply cannot be comprehended by the mind; it can only be experienced.

   replyreport
7. 61

   tantrumposted 14 years ago

   ValerieF wrote
   And I had the misfortune of encountering atheists who very openly look down their noses at religious people and refuse to stop when their arrogance is pointed out to them.
   
   And I wonder why  ?... I think religious people sometimes are very enervating, to say the least

   replyreport
8. 61

   Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

   And it gets irritating having my belief system judged as irrational when, for all you know, my belief system and reasons for subscribing to it are perfectly rational and grounded in reason and valid logic. Just because we disagree on the premises doesn't make atheism or religion any more or less rational.
   
   I have read the Bible, and there's that rule about doing unto others in there. If you don't like that the Bible calls you a fool for believing in your heart there is no God, don't turn and call someone the same exact thing for believing there is one.

   replyreport
   1. 86

      Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Valerie, Mark didn't say he minded about the Bible calling him a fool.  It's the religious people here in the forums or in real life who call him a fool, that he objects to.
      
      As you've read the Bible, you'll know that not everything in it can be taken literally, because it contradicts itself in hundreds of places.  There is no logic in picking and choosing the bits you want to believe.
      
      I respect your right to choose to believe, but you have no rigth to call anyone a fool for not believing.  And very often, atheists are reacting to that implication. 
      
      I do notice that, especially on these forums, some people (are you listening Mark?) have become so sensitised by the religious extremists that they over-react to milder statements.  Which is a shame, IMO.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         ElElyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         "As you've read the Bible, you'll know that not everything in it can be taken literally, because it contradicts itself in hundreds of places.  There is no logic in picking and choosing the bits you want to believe."
         
         Please find 3 or 5 and post them here and then we shall address the other "hundreds" one at a time.
         
         I mean, if you are going to put that kind of an absolute statement here then at least have some references please.
         
         "There is no logic in picking and choosing the bits you want to believe."
         
         Well yes, picking and choosing from the truth is NOT a good idea for anything in life. Truth is not a buffet.
         
         It might be easier to just write a hub and include the "hundreds of contradictions" in it.

         replyreport
   2. 0

      Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hubpages suffers from a lack of, I'd say, verbally sophisticated and non-fundamental philosophically religious people.  Or, at least they aren't much for posting in the religion forums, .  That's one reason I think this post of Jon's (non-cynical and asking a legitimate question) is a good one, as is yours (eloquent and well put).
      
      Not everybody is completely cynical about religion...even if the 'religionists' have made many that way (myself somewhat included).  And you know how it was with the cool kids in high school...they had a tendency to dominate certain spheres of influence.  Might as well not try out for certain activities, because there is no use in it anyway.
      
      Hubpage religion forums also seems to attract a lot of nuts--and of course these (though they, too, as long as they are not infringing on others' rights, have the right to their beliefs) are not the same as those who go about practicing and speaking about spirituality and/or their chosen religion in a rational and intelligent way.  Some here know that...just wanted to say it.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         rcisophieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Hubpages suffers from a lack of, I'd say, verbally sophisticated and non-fundamental philosophically religious people.  Or, at least they aren't much for posting in the religion forums, .  That's one reason I think this post of Jon's (non-cynical and asking a legitimate question) is a good one, as is yours (eloquent and well put).
         
           Would it be possible to separate things? One thing is Philosophy and other is Religion and people are always using Philosophy in a lot of senses that just don't match with it's meaning.
           As for me... for what I've seen... to post a comment in the religious forums its probably a waste of time. It seems a titanic effort, I didn't saw any reasonable discussing until now. LOL

         replyreport
         1. 75

            Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I cant even separate eggs properly

            replyreport
         2. 0

            Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Agreed.  lol  And agreed that fundamentalism can be secular, haha, .
            
            Of course the study of philosophy and religion are two different things...  They do overlap, however, such as in the case of John O'Donahue, a favorite philosopher/poet (a good one for aesthetics, I might add, too)...  Anyway, I was using the term 'philosophically' in the sense that someone would think a little deeper than just the same old bilge.

            replyreport
            1. 59

               JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               @Lita/Sophie Very intuitive responses.

               replyreport
   3. 63

      Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Looks like you having it vice versa. Bible calls Mark fool, so its followers should not be surprised to be called fools in return, by their own rules.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         ElElyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         And what rules are those?

         replyreport
         1. 63

            Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Mark already noted your poor command of English. Now we see you can't even follow a simple conversation flow. Poor deity...

            replyreport
            1. 60

               ElElyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I did NOT ask you the question for my benefit.
               
               So what are they now?

               replyreport
               1. 63

                  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Try to read what I quoted originally. I know it is hard for you to understand, but try, your question was answered before you asked it.

                  replyreport
               2. 75

                  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Why dont you write a hub about what you know?

                  replyreport
   4. 57

      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I suggest you buy a decent dictionary and look up the words "rational" and "logical."
      
      And yes - sorry, believing in god is not in any way rational, logical, or a reasoned position.
      
      
      
      Yes indeed - I am doing exactly what you people have asked me to.
      
      Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
      
      So. For the last 1500 years, people who choose your irrational belief system have been calling people fools for not believing.
      
      I believe that would classify as asking people to do unto you as you have been doing unto them? Or am I being illogical in making that conclusion?
      
      Fortunately our society has now reached the point where I am able to do unto you as you would have me without fear of being burned at the stake, imprisoned or otherwise punished.
      
      Too bad huh. bet you wish the good old days were back when atheists and witches could be properly dealt with.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         ElElyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         It is NOT people calling one a "FOOL" if they say that God does NOT exist....it is God saying that....they just quote His words.....so take it up with Him.
         
         If I quoted someone who said "only a jack ass plays on the freeway with his children" and then you did it.....and I called you a jack ass......ummmmm?????
         
         Someone who does not believe in God but says He exists is NOT called a FOOL....
         
         it is the FOOL who says He does NOT exist AT ALL

         replyreport
         1. 75

            Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            It is NOT people calling one a "FOOL" if they say that God does NOT exist....it is God saying that....they just quote His words.....so take it up with Him.
            
            If I quoted someone who said "only a jack ass plays on the freeway with his children" and then you did it.....and I called you a jack ass......ummmmm?????
            
            Someone who does not believe in God but says He exists is NOT called a FOOL....
            
            it is the FOOL who says He does NOT exist AT ALL

            Ut oh ,anyone need anything from the store

            replyreport