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A Solid Theological Refutation of Christianity

  1. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    In the Christian faith, God is defined as follows: All Powerful, All Knowing. Good, Omnipresent, Loving, etc. etc.

    But when you put that definition beside the rest of Christian theology, it doesn't work. It contradicts.

    The Christian God cannot be  All Knowing and Good and All Powerful. One of those has to go in order for Christianity to make logical sense. Either God is All Knowing and evil, or He is Good with limited knowledge or He is Fallible. Let me explain:

    If God is All Powerful, and Perfect, then He cannot make a mistake, right? Because a mistake is none other than an error, a miscalculation, a result of poor judgement. A mistake is when one's actions result in something contrary to one's intentions in a negative way. And an All Powerful God could never do that, right? Otherwise, He's not All Powerful.

    Now, if God is All Knowing, then He knows the future, right? Isn't He the Alpha and Omega? This means that He knew exactly how His creation would turn out long before He ever created it. If this is true, and if God cannot make a mistake, then He cannot possibly be Good. Because, in that case, He knew exactly which souls, and how many of them, would go to Hell, long before he ever created them. He knew that His actions would result in millions upon millions of people suffering in an eternity in Hell. Any Good God would never create a soul who He knew would suffer unspeakable torment for all eternity, much less millions upon millions of souls. Only an evil God would do that.

    But -- If He is Good, then He cannot possibly be both All Knowing and All Powerful. If He did not intend for mankind to sin, then the result of his creation was contrary to what he intended. In other words, things didn't turn out how He planned -- He made a mistake somewhere in the process of creation. Therefore, He cannot be All Powerful. Nor can He be All Knowing  because He would have known about the mistake ahead of time, and therefore wouldn't have made it, given His Good nature.

    Christian's want to have their cake and eat it too. But you can't have an {b]All Powerful, All Knowing, Good[/b] God within the confines of Christian doctrine. Something's gotta give. Or else reason goes right out the window. 

    So which is it? Is God Fallible? Is His knowledge limited? Is He simply not Good? Or is there some other explanation? I'd like to hear it.

    1. Valerie F profile image60
      Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      There are three other factors you haven't considered. God is also defined as eternal and omnipresent and is therefore not confined to linear time like we are. Things like "before" and "the future" are irrelevant to God. It's either now or soon.

      Secondly, there is the matter of human free will. God is good enough to not need a race of automatons to do only as they are programmed. Even if God knows what we'll do, whether we do good or bad is our choice, not God's.

      Thirdly, God, being Creator of the Universe, also makes the rules regarding what's good and evil for us. God- being the Supreme Being and all- has no equal or equivalent, and so is not subject to the same rules as if God were equal to humanity.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        1- now or soon doesn't apply either. Or time applies or it doesn't
        2. God is so good that  creates a world full of flaws
        3-so what about men being created as God's image ?
        I wonder....What's the base of your creed?

        1. Valerie F profile image60
          Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          1. The Bible makes a lot of references to something happening "now," or "soon," and few to no references to things happening "a long time ago," "before," or "in the very distant future." C.S. Lewis had some insights into why, with his speculation about "the eternal Now" and all time being "soon" to God. To a being who exists beyond linear time, who created linear time, all time is as immediate and accessible as "now" and "soon" are to us.

          2. Is the world full of flaws because of God? Christianity has it that the world is fallen because humanity was given a simple choice and chose to screw it up.

          3. Is a portrait equal to its subject? Being made in the image of God is not the same as being equal to God.

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            1- God is beyond time,only human beings have the notion of time.  The bible was written by human beings
            2- Well God created it... or not ?  So who's to blame ?
            3- If someone is made by my image ,is just like me, or is it going to be  Brad Pitt ?

            1. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              1. God is also believed by Christians to be omnipresent as well as eternal, which means God is present within linear time as well as existing beyond it.

              2. God created the world. We screwed it up. According to Christianity, we're to blame. You could blame God for creating free will and giving us a choice to either do good or do evil, but really, would you rather be an automaton incapable of any genuine virtue? What is the greater good? Doing good because it's the only think you know how to do, or doing good because, even with the availability of other more tempting options, you choose nonetheless to do good? Of course free will is a gamble, but God knows what is a matter of faith to us- that the gamble pays off.

              3. As for whether images are the same or only look like their subjects...

              http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/the_real_angelique/Magritte-Latrahisondesimages.jpg

      2. Fairbear profile image60
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Either God created all that exists or He didn't. Time doesn't necessarily need to be considered.

        In the case of free will, are you saying that God is powerless to direct our lives? If you are, then God is not all powerful. In that case, power is shared by God and man.

        So I suppose you're saying that to God things like disease and murder and rape and pain and suffering are somehow not evil?

        1. Bibowen profile image90
          Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The Christian church has never taught that God’s being “all powerful” is the same as “God can do anything.” Perhaps it’s a poor way to put it to say that God is constrained by some things, but the Bible teaches that God is constrained by his word. God cannot sin. As I asked before, could God create a married bachelor? Could He create a universe in which He did not exist? To state that God could create a married bachelor is to state something false: there are no married bachelors. So, God cannot do what is false.

          When we say that God is omnipotent, we mean that all power resides with Him and not that He can do anything.

          1. Fairbear profile image60
            Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Ok, thanks for clarifying. But in clarifying, you demonstrate how the powers of God, as can be understood by man, must fit into the boundaries of logic. Hence your married bachelor example. It's false because it is a logical contradiction. And that's exactly what I present in my opening post --a logical contradiction. Therefore, according to your own terms, the standing Christian definition of God must be false.

            Now, given your clarification, would you also say that God is capable of making a mistake? I'll assume you wouldn't. And that's the only aspect of God's power that I refer to -- His ability or inability to make a mistake.

            1. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              But that's still not solid theology. You are applying finite human logic to an infinite, non-human entity.

              The married bachelor example wasn't mine for a reason. If God wanted to create a universe where it's possible for married men to remain bachelors, it could happen, and God would make it logical. It's only my guess, but I think God created logic.

              I don't pretend to fully understand God. I think any claim that anyone can is ludicrous, and I think it is unreasonable to expect anyone to fully understand an intelligence that exists beyond as well as within all space and time when we don't even fully understand what's at the bottom of our own oceans. And that's also part of the standard Christian definition of God- too big to fit in any pigeonhole we create.

            2. Bibowen profile image90
              Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              As I see it, you are presenting the old theodicy problem: God cannot be all loving and all powerful, given the existence of evil. But there is no logical contradiction here because God has a reason for the pain and suffering which he allows.

              We can all relate to allowing for pain and suffering to achieve some greater end. Cancer patients endure sickening treatments, sometimes with a slim hope of healing, yet we accept it in light of a greater good that might come from it.

              Given eternity, the pains we suffer in this life are nothing. So, God can be all loving and allow the evil and suffering to persist for this brief moment.

              As for omnipotence, I said that God's being all powerful is not the same as saying that God can do anything. I'm not sure what you think you've shown by demonstrating that there are some things that God cannot do.

              As for God making a mistake, do you mean like getting one wrong on a test? If he has all knowledge, then no, he can't make a mistake. But since sin is rebellion against Him, it's not necessarily sin for Him to allow it to continue. If someone offends me, I can allow them to continue to do it. That is my prerogative to allow it.

              1. Fairbear profile image60
                Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Ok, so according to you, God has a reason for the existence of sin and Hell. You've said this before. But what good is it if you don't describe that reason? What is the reason? You say you've refuted my original post by stating there is a reason, but you won't give the reason. That's not an adequate argument.

                And as for omnipotence, there's only one aspect of it that concerns this thread, and that is whether or not God can make a mistake. What I mean by mistake is this: Can God's actions result in something contrary to what He intended? If not, then He intended for man to sin, and He intended for millions of people to suffer in Hell for all eternity.

                In other words, does God ever say, "Oops! I didn't mean to do that!" I think you'd agree that the answer to that is, "no."

                And if you want to revert now to the free will argument, just read my previous post.

                1. Bibowen profile image90
                  Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I thought I had stated the reason: God desires a loving relationship with man. For it to be a loving relationship, choice was an essential element. If it is a true choice, then the possibility of evil must exist. What God has the capacity to do and what he actually does are two different matters.

                  "Can God's actions result in something contrary to what He intended?" No. But you are conflating God's intention as it pertains to implementing some divine plan and God's will as to what he desires all men to do. All that God intends to happen will happen. As for God's will, the Bible says that it is not the will of God that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So, God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. However, not all men will be saved, given free will. So, God's desire for all of mankind to be saved will not be accomplished.

                  However, all that God plans or "intends" to happen will happen.

                  It is my perfect will that my son come in by curfew without coercion. However, my words are not enough and he violates the curfew.

                  My perfect will that he come in on time, uncoerced, was not accomplished.

                  So, I impose constraints and penalties and I impose those rules without compromise. Everything I intended to do, I did. He, feeling the sting of the penalties, now has the choice of complying with my house rules or snubbing them.

                  My implementation of my intentions was flawless, but my perfect will was not accomplished. My intentions could be implemented without flaw and still my son would not heed them. What I implement and what my son does are two different matters. And they are different precisely because of his capacity to choose. He has the freedom to respond to my rules or he is free to ignore them.

                  Could God have created a world of free creatures where they all chose Him? No. If they "freely choose Him" he can't guarantee that all will select Him. Your "problem of evil" is only a problem of contrived definitions (a God that is "all loving" would not allow evil and suffering or a God that is "omnipotent" could do anything); it is not a conundrum for the God of the Bible.

    2. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Meditate , come across god for yourself and you will understand why this entity is called omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient.

    3. 0
      Leta Sposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Just a lot of the same old bilge.  Going nowhere, and judging something by one's own ego maniacal standards.  And it hurts my eyes.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image60
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        you do not have to read them. smile

    4. nicomp profile image60
      nicompposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Argument from Incredulity.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        You are fond of saying that. Pity you are unable to see that your entire belief system rests on incredulity.

        "I can't believe god didn't do it." lol

    5. 0
      dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      you forgot vengeful, and demanding of sole worship...
      your reasoning behind powerful=good confuses me or maybe I read it wrong? I am pretty sure you can be all powerful wihtout being good, and maybe you have good mixed up with nice. Nobody siad he was nice.
      Also, I asked the same question, about God knowing the future, and why if he knew the future, he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey, so why did he go ahead with it all...and I got some thing about free will and I should not be so difficult. I needed faith, or ELSE!!!!!
      So, good luck I really hope somebody answers that.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Impossible 2 answer! If God is All knowing, etc. he knew his creation was doomed, so why did he go on ??? yikes

        1. 0
          dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I have a theory. God is really a little kid god, he made us as a science fair project. He got,like, a blue ribbon or something, then it was summer vacation, so he wrote THE bible, and thought most of us would fall for it, then stuck us under his bed and forgot all aobut it. Well, when I told my mom that, I wasnt allowed to watch TV anymore.

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              You should write a hub about it !!! I'm tempted to steal it from you ! lol

            1. 0
              dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              go ahead!! I dont mind. Wnat to know my theory about de ja vu?...er however you spell it...

              1. tantrum profile image60
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Yeah sure ! I will make a hub and adknowledge you for the content ! smile

          2. Fairbear profile image60
            Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I like your theory. You sound like a gnostic.

        2. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well, lets just say He paid a much bigger price than you ever will.big_smile

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            dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Lets just assume all this really happend. God had to quit being a superawesome angel and stuff, and he was stuck being a human. A lowly, emabaressing, lousy not perfect crappy human. He had temptaions he had to resist, women and all, he still got to do cool miracles tho..and then he had to die, even tho it wasnt his fault, but all along he had God his father to rely on. Like, he actually spoke to God. So, yeah, that whole crown of thorns and I did see temption of christ, I get it, it was horrid...but then he went right back to heaven and was all a hero and stuff.
            Are you seriously saying he suffered more then people here do evry single day? We never asked for this, its not our fault either. Some of us dont have daddys to help. Some of us get raped, tortured, left behind, some of us humans are only human and will never be anything else. Some of us try our damndest, but we have memories of lost loved ones, and we pray and pray and pray an no one shows up. I am sorry GOD died for me when I never asked him to. Big deal.

    6. fierycj profile image84
      fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No explanation or rationalizing from my end. You've converted me now! I've got absolutely no purpose for living! Now I'm off to sinning sprees and blowing people's heads off!

      1. 0
        dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        HA HA HA HA!!!!!! You are so funny fiery...
        and lucky to have such strong beliefs. My thing is religion itself. I do believe in God.

        1. fierycj profile image84
          fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah , Dennise. I still dont figure how people wanna measure a so called Almighty God using human meters namely logic. What stops a God who's all powerful from breaking all rules. The maker of the rules is not subject to the rules, is He. You make rules for your subjects to abide by, and remain subject to you. Its absurd that anyone would demand that God abide by any rule, if you think about it.

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I don't agree. God must abide by His own rules, else He's not God.

            1. 0
              dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              yes, but his rules for himself may not be the smae rules for us? right?

              1. aka-dj profile image79
                aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I think the word "rules" may be misleading in this discussion. Perhaps LAWS would be a better term. big_smile

                1. 0
                  dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I suppose your right.Laws is a good word. But even so, god is not held subject to the same laws we are. for example, one law...God can not lie. we clearly can.

                  1. aka-dj profile image79
                    aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    This is true,but the original statement that I responded to was to do with God not keeping His own rules. This is drifting into another realm. No, He cannot lie, we can, but that does not imply that He therefore is somehow breaking some rules. It just shows us that we are limited, finite and fallible.

            2. fierycj profile image84
              fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              But that isn't true. For instance, God says we shouldn't be jealous of others, but God calls himself a Jealous God. Like vengeance as well. We cant execute it, but He can. It lies with Him we are told. He sets the rules for us, but He Himself is not subject to any of them, get it.

              1. 0
                dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah, like mom and dad can stay up past 10 oclock, but little jimmy cant.

                1. fierycj profile image84
                  fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactimo!

                2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                  Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Authority ruled in love is a good thing smile

                  1. 0
                    dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I am not disputing that. My point is, was, and always will be, that I belive in God. Not necissarily human based religion.

              2. aka-dj profile image79
                aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I get what you mean, but the difference is NOT the "rules". It's sin. We are tainted by it, and so we break the rules. He is Holy, and is not limited. Therefore, in your example, He can be jealous, because His jealousy is Holy and Good, ours not. His "vengeance" is Just, ours is not. Get it?

                1. 0
                  dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  ARGH, yes. I was not saying god is bad for being not human. I was saying he lives by diffrent...standards?

                2. fierycj profile image84
                  fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  And the rules of Holiness and sin was made by who? Him. Still justifies my point. He makes the rules, we follow. He is not subject to it.

                  1. aka-dj profile image79
                    aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Lets start again. He does not need to "make rules"! HE IS, the "rule".
                    Jesus did not give us "the way, the truth, or the life". He IS, the (all). All rules/laws are a reflection, expression, etc of Who He IS. Not abstract rules. smile

          2. 0
            dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I get that. I never have DEMANDED God to do anything. I have come to the conclusion that hes really not looking anymore tho. Or maybe there is more to the story then christianity presents?

            1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
              Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Just block out all the other voices ,then you will hear His voice Dennise wink. He is gentle, and kind..but if you hear nothing then know this much.

              He loves you just the way you are ! smile

            2. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Or there is more to Christianity than you know. Do you honestly think you've never done any wrong? If so, you're either right and therefore you are God, or you are wrong and delusional, too arrogant to admit your own faults, or a liar.

              Christianity teaches that everyone capable of freely and fully choosing to do good has at some point abused that free will and chosen evil. God could wipe us all out for our transgressions and would be well within His rights, as it is mine to kill off characters I create for my books. God does not, however, because of mercy.

              Christianity also teaches that God has a more parental relationship with Creation, and that the human parent-child relationship is modeled after that.

              Parents know even before they have children that their children will not always choose to do good, will disobey, will require huge sacrifices with no guarantee of any reward, and could very likely be the biggest cause of grief and stress for the parents.

              They choose to have kids anyway because of love.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Wow. You are really sheltered. Or blind. I know you will drop out of this conversation , but..

                I take it you are unaware of the bad parents, and the children bought into the world through rape, incest  and sexual abuse.

                Or do they not count? We only count the good ones? lol

                Do unto others.......

                There is more to reality than you understand or are capable of understanding. Sorry you are so ignorant and arrogant. Too bad.

      2. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It surpasses stupidity for you to say something like that on a public forum. If I were you, I'd think twice, then write.

    7. 69
      rollingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      He gave you and me a mind and a will so you have a choice. This does not reduce Him to your thinking rather let your mind be intune with him and you will find all His attributes true.



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        dennisemattposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Of course he is not reduced to our thinking. But is it really fair that he gave us free will, then demanded exacting worship? unless we do all he says, the way he says it, no prize. "worship me and only me in the precise way I describe, or else you will suffer. Oh, and you get to pick what you do, just so I dont look like a bad guy..."
        thats like saying, I do have free will. I have the right,and the freedom, to stand in fornt of a trian. Of course, should I exercise that right, I will be flattend. But at least he gave me choice, right?

    8. Make  Money profile image72
      Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Okay Fairbear what you are talking about with your opening post below is predestination.

      Christians know that we receive salvation through God's grace.

      And with God's grace we receive the faith to believe in God.

      But what a lot overlook is that faith is dead without works (James 2).

      So in reality because faith is dead without works it is up to us to do good works to contribute to our salvation.  Note I said contribute to our salvation.

      God gave us the free will to do those good works.

      I would be more than happy to list some good works that we can do to contribute to our salvation, if you would like?     

      1. Fairbear profile image60
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You changed the subject. How in the world is my opening post talking about predestination? It's talking about an illogical hole in Christian theology. Nothing to do with salvation or the means thereof. If you say you believe that people are saved through grace and works combined, I say fine by me. Believe what you want. That's your right. But that has nothing to do with my original post. If you think my refutation is somehow wrong, then explain why you think that. That's what this thread is about.

        1. Make  Money profile image72
          Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Fairbear your 5th paragraph in your opening post is clearly talking about predestination.  Because God is omnipotent and knows all He does know how our lives will turn out, including after our death.  But what God knows here is how we will use our free will, exactly what everyone has been trying to tell you.  God uses people's bad works (sin) to show that we should be doing good works.  Things did turn out how He planned them.  God did know about the mistakes we'd make ahead of time which leads us back to free will.  Without free will we would all be robots or puppets.  God expects obedience.  God is infallible.  God's knowledge is unlimited.  And God is good.

          I will repeat, we do not have a solid theological refutation of Christianity in this thread.

          Fairbear if that does not answer your question then you are going to have to word your question in a different way.

          1. Fairbear profile image60
            Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            You have not presented a sound argument. All you've done is make empty statements that are supposed to stand up on their own without any basis. You still aren't using logic. You said that God's creation turned out how he planned. Ok, fair enough. But that means he intended for people to go to Hell. If those were His intentions, then He cannot possibly be good!

            My post is not for the purpose of calling into question the topic of free will, or the topic of predestination. My post only calls into question the definition of God within Christianity. If you believe in free will, fine. If you don't, fine. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm simply saying that your definition of God is illogical and unreasonable. In other words, it doesn't make a lick of sense. You've done nothing to counter that. I've come into this stating both my position and my case. You've only stated your position-- that you think I'm wrong. Where's your case?

            1. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              And yet you ignored a few crucial factors in how Christianity defines God whether because you were unaware of them, you genuinely thought they were irrelevant (when they aren't from the Christian point of view), or you found them inconvenient.

              If you want to question the Christian definition of God, question the whole thing, including God's relationship with us.

              1. Fairbear profile image60
                Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Fair enough. I only mentioned the aspects of that definition that apply to the presented problem. But if you think other aspects apply and somehow change that problem, or maybe even negate it, then by all means, lets hear them. I hope you're not like Make Money, who presents a position without a case.

                1. Make  Money profile image72
                  Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  In John 10:14 Jesus says "I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me."

                  Enough said.

    9. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      there is much more to free will choice than people understand...logic cannot stand alone, there is always feeling; we are human seeking the divine.

      The definitions of God in Christianity vary according to the person, nothing wrong with that, we are meant to be unique individuals. big_smile

    10. TheLoanConsultant profile image59
      TheLoanConsultantposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Very well then. You stated the following truths;

      God knew exactly how his creation would turn out long before He ever created it; And he knew exactly which souls, and how many of them would go to hell. Very well said, and I agree with you. In the geneologies in Genesis chapter 5 the Hebrew names if translated from the original Hebrew names and from there to English instead of from Greek to English it would read as follows: "Man is appointed mortal sorrow but teh blessed God shall come down teaching that His death shall bring the disparing rest." God's actions do not result in millions of people suffering for eternity in hell. People's actions result in them suffering in hell for eternity. If people choose to align with "evil principle" then the result is hell-fire. If a soul chooses to align with the "good-principle" but finds that because of his or her nature it is rather difficult to align with the good-principle without making mistakes, that soul may make use of The Blood of Christ as atonement for their shortcomings until they come to a place where their alignment with godliness and holiness becomes a habit and therefore consistent. If a soul does not take it upon his or herself to develop godly thought habits to flee the wrath to come, whose fault is that? And God knowing that He gave us a choice in the matter, is acquited of any guilt for the foolish choices of men. For they themselves have said, "THERE IS NO GOD!" And a soul who chooses not to follow The Lord still may possess in his gene pool a soul who WILL beleive in the Lord. My Dad believes in The Lord, but his dad did not. Now if my grandfather would not have been born, then my dad would not have been born, and of course, I would not have been born. So if one unbeliever would not have been born 2 believer's wouldn't have been born; and that's just to name a few. My son is a believer, many people whom I have shared my faith with are now believer's. And all these believer's may not have been, if my grandfather had not been born. That's naming a few of the ripple effects caused by just one life. That should answer your question people alive who don't accept God. So The Lord is saying now through His Word, to repent! Before it's too late. Deliverance from hell fire is available, there's no need for the millions that you mentioned to go to hell. What FORCE is preventing them from accepting Yeshua? What will happen if you accept Him? What do you think you have to give up? What changes do you think you have to make before you come to Him? What is it that's so great that you think you must give up, before you accept Him? Will you explode into a thousand pieces? And yes, you are correct; God DID not intend for mankind to sin. But that's what happens when you deal with beings who have freewill. See, what you fail to recognize is that when God created us He intended for us to use our freewill to increase in the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Would you prefer for me to come to your house and put a gun to your head and scream, "Believe now or die!" Of course not. But that train of thought is essentially what you're saying God should have possessed at the time of creation. But because He's a God of Love, He wants us to pursue Him out of our own free will. Would you like it if you found out one day that your wife, (if you have one) was forced to marry you and "act" like she loved you, but really didn't? How would that make you feel? And what do you mean things didn't turn out how He planned, and that He made a mistake, and had He known about the mistake He would not have made it? He PLANNED for our screw up. Look at it again closely, HE KNEW WE WOULD SCREW UP AND PLANNED FOR IT IN ADVANCE. This doesn't mean that HE intended for us to screw up. This means that He knew the risks associated with creating beings with free-will, would have liked for it to turn out otherwise but knew it wouldn't and therefore He prepared for the outcome of our screw up in advance and prepared a way for our deliverance through His son Jesus. So to answer your questions; Is God fallible? A RESOUNDING NO! Is His knowledge limited? NO! Is He simply not good? Absolutely not!

  2. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    you must be either

    Randy Godwin

    or

    Ron Montgomery

    or

    tantrum

    or

    yoshi97

    i could be wrong. wink

    1. Ron Montgomery profile image61
      Ron Montgomeryposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah, you are wrong (shocking yikes) I don't hide and try to deceive like The Artist Formerly Known as God does.

    2. Make  Money profile image72
      Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Actually I think yoshi97 may have enlisted in the RCIA course after this thread that he started.  I could be wrong but he is clearly searching.
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/19649?page=10

  3. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago

    Who cares I just want the cake lol

  4. Bibowen profile image90
    Bibowenposted 7 years ago

    Here is the way David Hume stated the theodicy in 1779:

    "Is he [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"

    I don't think most philosophers consider this a logical problem any more, although they use to. You need only show that God has a sufficient reason for the evil and suffering that he allows. It's just not a slam dunk as you present it.

    1. Fairbear profile image60
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Care to get specific? What is God's sufficient reason for creating evil and suffering? You haven't really said anything here.

  5. jabyrd82 profile image59
    jabyrd82posted 7 years ago

    Man all that writing you should put it on your first hub!!!:_)

  6. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    You asked that long question and you do not know the answer? lol

    You talk like you know the scriptures? lol

    You speak like GOD answers to you? lol

    Do you NOT know that the answer is right in the scriptures? lol

    You asked, so here is your answer.

    Romans 9:14-24

    14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!

    15 For God said to Moses,

      “I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
        and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”


    16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

    17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”

    18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

    19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

    20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

    21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?

    22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.


    23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

    24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

    He is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent !!!

    And He for sure does NOT ANSWER TO YOU AND OR ME !!!

    1. Make  Money profile image72
      Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      This is why I have often said to Mark Knowles that he is bringing people to talk about and understand God whether he realizes it or not.  Now the same goes with Fairbear.  God bless them.

      Anything or anyone that gets people to think about God is beneficial.

      I guess we don't have a solid theological refutation of Christianity in this thread.

      1. Fairbear profile image60
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I still don't see how anyone has explained how the Christian God can be all that He is defined as being. The strongest arguments against my refutation all amount to the same thing, and that is that God cannot be understood by humans.
        However, that statement in itself is contradictory to the very argument that it conveys. If God cannot be understood, then how can Christians define Him at all? Can He be understood only partially? That seems like a double standard to me. Either He can be understood, or He cannot. Christians, like you, play a game of "heads I win, tails, you lose." When the topic enters territory that you cannot confront on logical grounds, you resort to the reliable standby, "Oh, God can't be understood." What you're really saying is, "I don't understand enough to support my own claims, but I refuse to admit it."

        Don't enter a logic-based debate if you're unprepared to use logic. If your faith is not based on reason, then admit it. Don't straddle the fence. But if you claim that your faith is entirely reasonable and logical, then deliver the goods. Use reason.

        1. Shaul Stein profile image60
          Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You asked for logic, here you go, not my words, could not say it better than this. I told you already, HE DOES NOT ANSWER TO US OR YOU. big_smile
          Says it right here, He is IMPOSSIBLE to understand!!! big_smile
          People can describe Him according to what he reveals.

          Job 9
           1 Then Job spoke again:
           2 “Yes, I know all this is true in principle.
                But how can a person be declared innocent in God’s sight?
           3 If someone wanted to take God to court,
                would it be possible to answer him even once in a thousand times?
           4 For God is so wise and so mighty.
                Who has ever challenged him successfully?
           10 He does great things too marvelous to understand.

                He performs countless miracles.
           11 “Yet when he comes near, I cannot see him.
                When he moves by, I do not see him go.
           12 If he snatches someone in death, who can stop him?
                Who dares to ask, ‘What are you doing?’
           14 “So who am I, that I should try to answer God
                or even reason with him?
          32 “God is not a mortal like me,
                so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.


          Romans 11
          33 Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
           34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
                Who knows enough to give him advice?

           35 And who has given him so much
                that he needs to pay it back?
           36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

          Again, impossible to understand and does NOT answer to you.
          He makes Himself known as much as He so chooses, that is all we can describe to people. smile

          1. Fairbear profile image60
            Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            So you're telling me that the reason I am wrong is because there is no logical solution to my refutation?  Your logic is, "there is no explanation." I'm sorry but that isn't logic. That's called giving up. But that's entirely respectable. You don't understand enough about God to explain why you believe I'm wrong, and you've boldly admitted it. You just simply believe I'm wrong. Well, at least you know what you believe. Good for you.

  7. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Tantrum replies with this and then deleted it Valerie

  8. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    The answer i gave up at the 7th post is the answer.

    the answer is that GOD does NOT answer to us!!!

    He cannot be blamed either.

    Man's problem is that he must always blame someone. big_smile

  9. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    @Valerie F:

    Mark Knowles sugested a decent dictionary for you.   I sugest a decent Bible. And a little bit of reasoning, maybe ? Good night !

  10. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    it's strange to me that GOD told man he could eat from "ANY" of the trees in the garden except for only 1.

    all those choices and they had to go after the only one He said NO to.

    gosh that still goes on today with adults and children alike !!! lol

    tell someone they cannot have something and what do they do?

    and then they will sure blame you that they did it too. lol

    the speed limit is 65mph and your going 115 and it's all the car makers fault.

    gee maybe they should have made the car top out at 65mph.

    oh, but wait, you'd cry about that too. lol

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Funny thing is we have another zealot here who uses very similar phrases..... smile

      1. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The name-calling brigade just arrived. Discussion just ended; mud-slinging now commences.......

  11. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Got it! the same zany loon who came here a month ago, gonna play merry hell with the atheists and then when it got too rough, ran away like a rat up a drainpipe! smile

    1. 0
      Leta Sposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Zany is a good word.  smile

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks! I wish I knew how a rat runs away though!

        1. Paraglider profile image89
          Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vLBVKeJrnuc/SRmXFN3i8AI/AAAAAAAAAWM/Et-0PMScxdE/s1600-h/rat.jpg
          You only have to ask, my son...

          1. Paraglider profile image89
            Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Wonder why that didn't work?

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              hard to know, but it happens to me mostly when I'm tired. smile

              1. Paraglider profile image89
                Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                or fasting wink

                1. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Still over there then?

                  1. Paraglider profile image89
                    Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, I've taken a contract for another year in Qatar.

  12. kephrira profile image61
    kephriraposted 7 years ago

    A religion that is illogical? well I never would have guessed....

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Try Discordianism. It seem you don't know much, ha ?

  13. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    Sheesh. I go to bed and wake up and now there are two pages of posts here. Give me a minute and I'll respond to most of them.

    Shaul Stein: No, I am not who you think I am. I haven't been on hubpages in nearly a year. I've never seen you on here before.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Maybe you did...under other names smile

  14. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    Good Luck !! lol

    1. fierycj profile image84
      fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'm being sarcastic, Tantrum. smile

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The same here  lol  or what do you think i was laughing for ? big_smile

        1. fierycj profile image84
          fierycjposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Lol. Just to clear things up...no misunderstandings.

  15. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    That's not fair! I don't like the kind ! yikes sad

  16. Eaglekiwi profile image76
    Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago

    Yes God cannot break his own laws/rules for He is Love

    and he remembers exacttly where we came from...dust

    smile

  17. Make  Money profile image72
    Make Moneyposted 7 years ago

    Fairbear I'd have to agree with you that God can not be fully understood.  For who knows the mind of God.  But threw history, tradition and the Bible we can understand God enough to know that we owe everything to Him and should be thankful.  That is logical.  Here are the goods.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think you need to look up the word "logic" Make Money.

      There is nothing logical in that statement. In fact - it is contradictory. God cannot be fully understood implies that he can be partially understood.

      Which is not logical. Merely reinforcing the statement that Fairbear made. You have nothing and are resorting to "yes, but....... " lol

    2. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes if we throw history, tradition and the Bible, maybe we'll be able to understand God !

    3. Fairbear profile image60
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You used no logic in this post. All you did was make a generic statement and then label it logical. Then in response to my request for the reasonable and logical basis of your faith, you referred me to the entire Bible. Do you mean to say that the Bible is 100% reasonable and logical? If so, then I'd have to refer you back to my original post in which I show only one of the thousands of ways Biblical theology is NOT reasonable or logical.

      My challenge is for you to decide where you stand. Is your faith based on reason or is it not? If it is, then contribute some of that reason to this discussion. If it's not (many Christians admit that their faith is unreasonable) then why did you join this reason-based discussion?

  18. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    For those of you using the Free Will argument as an answer to my post, I must remark that it is not a solution to the problem I present. Because the real issue that concerns free will is not man's freedom to live how he pleases during his lifetime. The real issue is God's foreknowledge of exactly who will spend eternity in Hell and who won't. If He is entirely Powerful and entirely Knowledgeable, then the decisions people make in their lifetimes is beside the point. Eternity is the point. It is God who decides how people will spend eternity, and He decides it long before those people even exist. If this isn't the case, then God's knowledge is limited. It's like you're saying that God is surprised by people's actions, like he never saw it coming.

    If you pour a glass of water on the floor, whose fault is it that the floor got wet? You knew ahead of time exactly where the water would go, but you tipped the glass anyway. Are you going to blame it on gravity? Or did the water choose on it's own where it would go? In either case, it doesn't matter because you KNEW. Your foreknowledge makes you responsible for the floor getting wet. Because if you didn't want the floor to get wet, you would have never tipped the glass.

    Either God wanted us to sin, or He didn't know we would sin.

    The free will argument (as applies to my refutation) only works if you eliminate the element of Hell. And if you do that, Christianity unravels into nothing.

    1. Fairbear profile image60
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'll repost this since no one seemed to notice it before, and since now the issue of free will has risen once again as an answer to my original post. Free will is not an adequate answer. And this is why.

      1. rcisophie profile image61
        rcisophieposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Ok I got it. There is a contradition between the fact that God knows all (past and future)and the Salvation and Grace. This is a problem that scholars have argued for centuries and of course they didn't manage to resolve it.
        One of the questions was about the kind of knowlegde God would possess... because we think in our humam standards, so could it be a knowledge not concerning all individuals in particular? What knowledge could it be?

        Oh my... this forum looks like my medieval philosophy classes wink
        One thing I learned there... its possible to find many 'dificult points' logicaly contradictory and for centuries plenty worked about them but they never reach to valid logical conclusions.
        And so? you are dealing with 2 domains here - reason and logic / feeling and beliefs.

        And this discussion is in its essence theology.

      2. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'll deal with the free will issue here.

        You say,
        Because the real issue that concerns free will is not man's freedom to live how he pleases during his lifetime. The real issue is God's foreknowledge of exactly who will spend eternity in Hell and who won't. If He is entirely Powerful and entirely Knowledgeable, then the decisions people make in their lifetimes is beside the point. Eternity is the point. It is God who decides how people will spend eternity, and He decides it long before those people even exist.

        First, it is an issue of free will because man's choice will determine his fate. Second, you are assuming that God's foreknowledge overrides man's choice. But I see no reason to think that is true. If God knows the future, that is no more an imposition on man's will than some scanning device imposes upon the surrounding environment the conditions which it measures. Similarly, God's knowing what will happen in the future is not the same as His determining it.

        As a teacher, I have a pretty good idea of how my students are going to do on the upcoming test. Let's say I have perfect knowledge. My perfect knowledge of how they will do does not take away from their ability to study, plan, work problems, and to improve their score. They are free agents and my foreknowledge of how they will do is irrelevant as to their choices.

        God is no more deciding who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, given foreknowledge, than I would be as an omniscient teacher of my students. Now, I could "fix" the test so that all do well (or so that all fail). But what kind of teacher would that make me? If I have just academic standards, I am going to fix those standards and expect all students to strive to obtain them.

        I suppose God could have "rigged" the system so that all accept Him, but that does away with man's responsibility. God holds men responsible because he has set the standards and they have the freedom to choose. God, knowing what men will freely choose is not coercing their choice by having such knowledge.

        Also, I'm not sure why you're making an issue of eternity. It's not even relevant to your argument, let alone mine.

        1. Fairbear profile image60
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You say that man's so-called choice determines his fate and you relate this to your students taking a test and receiving a grade. The analogy is inadequate. The reason is that your students are all well aware of what they need to do in order to pass the test, and they're also well aware of the consequences of passing or failing. In their case, their choices, and only their choices, directly determine their fate. That's because it's all laid out clearly and inescapably before them. But what if they knew nothing of the test before it was given, so much so that they weren't even aware of it when you gave it to them, much less the consequences of passing or failing, much less the needed preparation for passing it? What if they didn't even know what a test was? In that case, you, the teacher, would be unfair and cruel (not good) to base their class grades on their inevitably failing test scores. That's because it is your responsibility, and duty, as the imposer of the consequences, to give your students a clear understanding of what's required of them and what's at stake. If you fail to do that duty, but impose the consequences anyway, then your actions are simply malicious and wrong.

          You seem intelligent and fairly knowledgeable. How could you hold the viewpoint that everyone in the world who has ever lived (since the death of Jesus and forming of Christianity) possesses in their minds a firm conviction of the existence of Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus as God, sin, the authority of the Bible, and everything else that constitutes your Christian world-view? How can the fact escape you that the only reason these things seem self evident to you is because you already believe in them? How can you ignore that there are, and have always been, millions and millions of people who when presented with Christian doctrine, see only an obvious, foreign myth and dismiss it with as much disinterest as you may dismiss, say, Scientology, or, Harre Krishna?

          You speak as though you think everyone is fully convinced and knowledgeable about Hell and the means of escaping Hell. If that were true, and if that conviction itself were true, then I could concede that it is mankind who knowingly determines his own fate. Anyone who was clearly presented with a choice between torment and bliss would choose bliss every time. But that is not the case, not by a long shot. And since that is not the case, then the God who supposedly created Hell specifically for all those people who simply don't see the truth in Christianity, but instead adhere to the faith of their upbringing, is a cruel, unfair, malevolent God. In no way can the goodness of such a being be conceived.

          Eternity is relevant to my argument because it is ultimate. Hell is ultimate punishment. It cannot even remotely be compared to a failing test grade. It serves no correctional purposes. It is the final stop. And most importantly --it is impossible to know of such a thing. You can only believe it exists, and that is only if you are a Christian. As has been demonstrated by a Jewish person earlier in this thread, to them, Hell is not eternal. Do you think they are lying about what they believe? Their version of Hell is a reality to them as much as yours is to you. The same goes for all of those who don't believe in Hell at all. It cannot be proven, and there is no evidence of it. That's why it applies--because it is unfair, unknowable, and for all many people honestly know, it is false.

          whew

          1. Bibowen profile image90
            Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            The teacher illustration was only to make one point, namely, that my future knowledge need not obstruct the student's free will. The illustration was not meant as a "proxy reality" to be saddled with every sense in which it doesn't apply. You have not refuted that point.

            Your original post was to provide a definitive refutation of Christianity, but you have not done that. Part of the reason that your conundrum fails is that you have so many assumptions that need not be true. Since you are trying to portray this as some sort of logical dilemma, all I need show is that your assumptions need not be true.

            Your "problem of evil" assumes that God, in order to be omnipotent, has to be able to do anything, including that which is false. You assume that omniscience negates the possibility of free will.  You have not shown why either of these is necessarily true. In response, God need not be able to do "anything" to be the maximally powerful being. Furthermore, I have illustrated that omniscience need not cancel free will. God can know what free creatures will decide in the future without interfering in their choices. His "knowing" does not negate their freedom.

            The remainder of what you say above illustrates what I said earlier. For most people, theodicy is not a logical problem; it is an emotional one. You should try to separate the two. In part you are trying to show the contradictions between being all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. In the next sentence you are berating Christianity because its idea of hell is more unreasonable than the Jewish idea. As for who is right, they both can't be. Now, both could be wrong, but if one is right, then the other group is wrong. If Hell exists, then it is either eternal or it's not.

            Until you can show that such things must be true, then you don't have the slam dunk refutation you claim in the first post.

            1. BJC profile image68
              BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Fairbear, what are thoughts on our existance and where we're going?

            2. Fairbear profile image60
              Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Firstly, the only assumption I am making concerning God's omnipotence is an assumption that you have agreed with. That is that God cannot make a mistake. And I have defined what I mean by mistake. I've even explained this to you already. And your assertion that my assumption includes God's ability to even do that which is false is a total contrast to my original post. My whole argument rests on God being unable to do that which is false! I've also explained this to you.

              Secondly, my issue is not with free will. My issue is with Hell. Your entire argument hinges on free will. That's the reason you have given for why God created evil. But that still doesn't allow for God to be Good and All Loving. You present free will as though it is a single, ultimate choice which every human being confronts in their life. They see Hell on their left and Heaven on their right, and it's up to them to choose one over the other. If that were the case, I would concede. God would then be everything that Christianity says He is, and it would be entirely man's choice if he ended up in Hell.

              But in the real world, John Doe, to whom Heaven and Hell is NOT a reality, to whom Jesus is just some dead guy, to whom Christianity means nothing -- to him there is no choice! Not any more than there is a choice for you to accept or reject belief in Scientology. I'm assuming you've probably never genuinely considered Scientology to be the one true faith. Do you think a God who sent you to Hell for not choosing Scientology is a Good, All Loving God? You must see my point. There is no clear, defined, unavoidable, available to all, choice. Many people presently and throughout history never really had a choice.

              Of course you may be right. My whole conundrum just might be based on emotion and not logic. My idea of what is Good and All Loving could very well not be God's idea. But if that is the case, then why use the human words Good and All Loving to describe God, when He is actually the opposite of what any human would call Good and All Loving? Why don't the human words in the bible describe Him as what any human would describe Him as seeing that He sends people to Hell who never really had a chance? Any human would call that Evil, or something like it.

              I guess the only real assumption that I'm making is that the writers of the Bible meant generally the same thing that I do when we use the words Good and All Loving. I guess they could have actually meant the opposite. Things do sometimes get lost in translation.

              1. Valerie F profile image60
                Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Sure there is. If he hears about Christianity and the invitation extended to him, he can choose to accept or reject it. I have heard of Scientology, and I chose to reject it. If I am wrong about Catholicism and it turns out Scientology is the true faith, it wouldn't be much of a religion if I wasn't held accountable somehow for my conscious and persistent rejection of it.

                But if you read the Christian Scriptures, you'd know that there is no solid theological grounding for the idea that Christians believe God sends people to Hell at all, let alone for simply not having heard about Jesus.

                Romans 2: 12-16

                If anyone goes to Hell at all, it's because they reject the invitation to Heaven or don't want to follow the Way there. Our own sins and our own rejection of God will be sufficient to take us there.

                1. Fairbear profile image60
                  Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Do you really think it is Good and Loving of God to "allow" you to go to Hell for rejecting Scientology?

                  1. Valerie F profile image60
                    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Do you think it is Good and Loving of God to drag people into Heaven against their will?

              2. Bibowen profile image90
                Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                The post is getting too long to be practical. Here I will address the first part and have left out the rest of the last post....

                OK. We both agree that if God is God, he cannot make a mistake.

                Next, I don’t think I’ve said that God’s creation of evil is the basis for His being all loving and good.

                We are not in agreement that God created evil. God no more created evil than a servant boy creates the masterpiece portrait simply because he fetches the oils, brushes and canvas for the master. Unless you want to say “choice” is evil, then God has not created evil. God has created the conditions by which evil can be expressed, but there is a gap between creating the conditions by which a thing may be done and actually being the one that commits it.

                I also submit that you do not apply this standard elsewhere. If I have a tire iron in my garage and someone breaks into my house, takes it, goes down the street and beats someone to death with it, did I commit the crime? I submit that what you’re claiming is not a practicable ethic. I may have provided the conditions for the crime, but there is a clear moral distinction between that and my committing the crime. Besides, if evil is “rebellion against God” (which is what I claim) then God is within His prerogative to treat it however He wants. If someone does me wrong, isn’t within my prerogative to “let it go” if I want? Is anyone going to call me “evil” if someone takes my money and I forgive him for doing it, and let him keep the money?

                Next, the ultimate choices are not between heaven and hell. Valerie is right when she says that the choices are accepting or rejecting God. Heaven and Hell are the consequences of right or wrong choices.  In the Bible, Romans 1 makes clear that man in his natural state knows that God exists, even to the point of knowing His power and position. But it also says that some men resist God in their hearts, their conscience. They don’t want to know about Him, or they would like to know about Him, but on their terms, not God's.  This is the fatal choice. I believe that to such men that really want to know the truth, God will reveal more of Himself to such a man. But God is not going to do so for a man who takes the ten dollars that God gives him, stomps it in the ground and demands a hundred. We have to submit to the light that we know before greater light is revealed. Light rejected only increases darkness.

                You assume that more people would accept God if they knew about hell. I doubt it and I believe America is an example that the opposite of what you’re saying is true. In America, most people have heard of hell. Are people running as fast as they can to accept Jesus as Savior? Consider how hell is treated in a culture where most people know about it: the word is used for slang, jokes are made about it, people say things like, “Yeah, I know I’m going to hell. Me and the fellas are going to have a good time.” As a believer, if you mention hell, people get morally indignant: “how dare you tell me I’m going to hell just because I don’t believe in Jesus!”

                The same goes for heaven: “I think heaven will be boring, sitting around, strumming a harp all day, bowing to the Supreme One….I don’t think so.”

                So, you may think that people will beat the doors down getting into heaven, given the knowledge of hell, but our experiences in America say it isn’t true. In fact, I’d say that more knowledge of hell will make some people worse, not better. They’ll just become more indignant and caustic, not more humble and receptive to God’s will.

  19. Valerie F profile image60
    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago

    Mark, do you honestly think most parents, even most abusive parents, have children with the specific intention of harming them?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Avoiding the questions as usual. 'Cause it is all good. You ignore the bad as being what? Invisible?

      But of course - your all powerful super being blames that on "free will"  Not that he had anything to do with it. Seriously - you have ducked out of every conversation we have had when the questions made you realize your irrational beliefs were just that. Why?

      Oh, that is right.

      Do unto others means something else. wink

      1. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Who says I'm ducking out of anything. I answer every honest question I am asked, I try to be polite, and I apologize even unnecessarily if I even thing I might have made a false assumption, which is much more than I am getting from you.

        You assume way too much about me. For all you know, I have worked with homeless children who were thrown out by selfish, neglectful parents or ran away from abusive parents. For all you know, I had assisted in child psycho-social rehab. For all you know, I've seen child abuse, neglect, and endangerment at its worst. Of those cases, I never knew of a single parent who had the child with the specific intent of harming him or her.

        Why don't you answer my question with something other than an ad hominem attack?

        If my answers are insufficient, they are insufficient. But they still exist. However, I do get tired of willfully obtuse snipes disguised as questions, and I get tired of repeating myself.

        And its still my position that any good we do is not genuine unless it is freely chosen.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Because your questions always start with an assumption. And I am not making an ad hominem attack - I am making fun of the way you speak down to people - because you have the answers, and you know the truth, and I should not question anything because god is like a parent and he knows what is best for me - and you know what he wants. Example:



          Look at all those lovely assumptions you are making. IAnd using the typical christian passive/aggressive approach - you have not actually come out and made an attack, but it is there in black and white.



          So - god is a parent, and he knows what is best. wink

          And you will blindly trust this. And even though you acknowledge the bad parents, and presumably the parents that do not have children for love, you prefer to ignore those.

          What about the people who have children to claim government benefits, or to trap a man or woman into a relationship? Or with the express intention of selling the child? Or the millions of stupid people who have them "accidentally,"?

          And if "God has a more parental relationship with Creation" then what about the species he chooses to wipe from the face of the earth completely? Does not sound like a loving creator to me.

          It would appear you god is strangely made in our own image and just as stupid as we are. Makes me think he does not exist.

          In answer to your question - I think a good majority of parents have children for selfish, stupid reasons. A lot of which come out of your book. Which makes your god also pretty selfish and stupid.

          Now - I am actually saying this from love, and I know what is best for you - so just accept it and believe what I am telling you. You are too weak-minded to understand the real reasons. wink

  20. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    @ Fairbear
    Let me ask you a question.

    Who are you to think you can question GOD that HE would answer you?

    Seriously, who are you?

    Does a human judge even answer to you?

  21. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Here is logic for you.

    20 Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

    21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?

    What is you answer to those questions?

    You ignored them before.

  22. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    I trip out on people who stand before a human judge and demand that he answer to them.

    Do you answer to your children?

    Do you demand that your boss explain everything to you?

  23. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Isaiah 55:
    8 “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.
          “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
    9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
          so my ways are higher than your ways
          and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.


    That does NOT sound like someone who can be comprehended or understood.

    Like I say, He reveals only what He chooses too and nobody has authority to question it, NOBODY. Especially unbelievers who mock and scorn.


    GOD laughs at such men. lol

    1. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Is this not the perfect example of man creating god in his image? I laugh, therefore god laughs. When I laugh, my diaphragm convulses, my throat constricts and a strange involuntary noise comes from my mouth, audible because of pressure waves in the air, relaying the sound to my ears. Therefore god's diaphragm, throat, mouth and ears must do exactly the same as mine. And no doubt heaven contains some air to make sure the sound carries properly.

      Sorry, but the lack of imagination is astounding.

      And when god writes comments about his laughter, does he insert a little lol to be just like his creator? I suppose he must.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image60
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        He laughs, He grieves, He can show anger, He can show mercy, He has many character traits that we do, we are made in His image and likeness.

        He just does not evil.

        1. Paraglider profile image89
          Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          OK, you know your bible chapter and verse. Show me where God laughs. I can't remember reading that, but I don't claim to have memorised the whole text.

  24. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    Shaul Stein: I am not, as you insinuate, an "unbeliever." I have an extremely intimate and fulfilling relationship with God. You see, I know Him personally.

    Who am I to question God and receive a response? What, do you want my name? I am who I am, and God responds to everything I ask Him, without exception.

    To your two biblical questions: First of all, I'm not arguing with God. I'm arguing with you. God and I don't argue. Secondly, I have no problem with how God made me. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    I don't have any children, and I don't have a boss. But regardless, I thought you couldn't understand God. But now you're comparing Him to humans as though he behaves just like us.

    And I've already responded to your admittance that you have no explanation for believing I'm wrong. I think that's admirable. You simply believe, even though you can't say why.

    1. Shaul Stein profile image60
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I believe in Him because He appeared to me about 30 years ago and several times after that.
      Enough said.

      If He answers everything you ask, then answer your own question.
      And you seem to think He can be understood, when He says He cannot be.
      Do you contradict Him?

      I also said He could be understood as much as He chose to reveal Himself or did you miss that too?

      Why is that not logical to you.

      I used a judge as an example knowing that GOD is a JUDGE or did you not perceive that?

      1. Fairbear profile image60
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        My original post was not meant to challenge God. It was meant to challenge Christian theology. There is a big difference between those two. I already have an answer. It is contained within the post itself.

        And your answer to that challenge was, "I don't have an answer because I don't understand enough." Anything we talk about now is off topic, since you gave up.

        Yes, I think He can be understood. And no, He never told me that he couldn't. If He told you that, then I guess you're not meant to understand Him. Looks like you share that in common with whoever wrote those things all those thousands of years ago. I guess we're all meant for different things.

        No, God and I do not contradict.

        1. Shaul Stein profile image60
          Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Yes you do, He said His ways are higher than yours, so you cannot understand Him totally...if you say you can you make Him a liar.

  25. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    You say you understand GOD do you now?
    Answer these then.

    2 “Who is this that questions my wisdom
          with such ignorant words?
    3 Brace yourself like a man,
          because I have some questions for you,
          and you must answer them.

    4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
          Tell me, if you know so much.
    5 Who determined its dimensions
          and stretched out the surveying line?
    6 What supports its foundations,
          and who laid its cornerstone
    7 as the morning stars sang together
          and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

    8 “Who kept the sea inside its boundaries
          as it burst from the womb,
    9 and as I clothed it with clouds
          and wrapped it in thick darkness?
    10 For I locked it behind barred gates,
          limiting its shores.
    11 I said, ‘This far and no farther will you come.
          Here your proud waves must stop!’

    12 “Have you ever commanded the morning to appear
          and caused the dawn to rise in the east?
    13 Have you made daylight spread to the ends of the earth,
          to bring an end to the night’s wickedness?
    14 As the light approaches,
          the earth takes shape like clay pressed beneath a seal;
          it is robed in brilliant colors.
    15 The light disturbs the wicked
          and stops the arm that is raised in violence.

    16 “Have you explored the springs from which the seas come?
          Have you explored their depths?
    17 Do you know where the gates of death are located?
          Have you seen the gates of utter gloom?
    18 Do you realize the extent of the earth?
          Tell me about it if you know!

    19 “Where does light come from,
          and where does darkness go?
    20 Can you take each to its home?
          Do you know how to get there?
    21 But of course you know all this!
       For you were born before it was all created,
          and you are so very experienced!

    22 “Have you visited the storehouses of the snow
          or seen the storehouses of hail?
    23 I have reserved them as weapons for the time of trouble,
          for the day of battle and war.
    24 Where is the path to the source of light?
          Where is the home of the east wind?

    25 “Who created a channel for the torrents of rain?
          Who laid out the path for the lightning?
    26 Who makes the rain fall on barren land,
          in a desert where no one lives?
    27 Who sends rain to satisfy the parched ground
          and make the tender grass spring up?

    28 “Does the rain have a father?
          Who gives birth to the dew?
    29 Who is the mother of the ice?
          Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens?
    30 For the water turns to ice as hard as rock,
          and the surface of the water freezes.

    31 “Can you direct the movement of the stars—
          binding the cluster of the Pleiades
          or loosening the cords of Orion?
    32 Can you direct the sequence of the seasons
          or guide the Bear with her cubs across the heavens?
    33 Do you know the laws of the universe?
          Can you use them to regulate the earth?

    34 “Can you shout to the clouds
          and make it rain?
    35 Can you make lightning appear
          and cause it to strike as you direct?
    36 Who gives intuition to the heart
          and instinct to the mind?
    37 Who is wise enough to count all the clouds?
          Who can tilt the water jars of heaven
    38 when the parched ground is dry
          and the soil has hardened into clods?

    39 “Can you stalk prey for a lioness
          and satisfy the young lions’ appetites
    40 as they lie in their dens
          or crouch in the thicket?
    41 Who provides food for the ravens
          when their young cry out to God
          and wander about in hunger?

  26. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Who are you to try and put yourself in a place of more understanding than the ancients who knew Him face to face?

    What cocky foolish arrogance!!!

  27. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
    34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
          Who knows enough to give him advice?

    So it says here impossible to understand....but not for you? lol

  28. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Your god is invisible, has never said or written a single word to anyone and although apparently omni-everything, blames "his children" like a fifth grade neurotic while allowing innocent babies and children to die horribly!

    Truly laughable, and a hell of a ways from logic.
    As I have said before, your god is a tiny little psychopath, you can keep him/her/it! smile

  29. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    Shaul Stein:

    God never told me that he could not be understood. Actually, He told me to keep seeking Him and all things will be known to me. That's what He told me personally. I'm sorry that doesn't agree with the views of whoever wrote all those things you keep referring to. Like I said, maybe God had different plans for those guys, and you too, since you seem to share their views.

    Speaking of which, thanks for not copying and pasting the entire Bible (though you came pretty close). I've already read it. It's an interesting compilation of various ancient writings. I hope you don't think I'm gonna take the time to answer all of those questions. If you really want an answer, give me one question at a time and I'll answer them.

    I too know God face to face. Of that I can be sure. I can't, however, be sure that those ancients did, because I cannot see into their mind and heart. Neither can I see into yours, nor you into mine or theirs.

    I've refrained from being rude to you and calling you insulting names. And I will continue to do so, because  it is disrespectful. I'd appreciate it if you behaved likewise out of mutual respect.

    1. Shaul Stein profile image60
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      He says His ways are past finding out, not what someone else said, but what HE said....you cannot find out all of His ways because he does not reveal them all.

  30. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Here is one question at a time.

    “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
          Tell me, if you know so much."

  31. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    So next you will say you have more understanding than Paul too.

  32. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    8 “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.
          “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.

    refute that

  33. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    17 Do you know where the gates of death are located?
          Have you seen the gates of utter gloom?
    18 Do you realize the extent of the earth?
          Tell me about it if you know!

    Answer?

  34. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    19 “Where does light come from,
          and where does darkness go?
    20 Can you take each to its home?
          Do you know how to get there?
    21 But of course you know all this! lol
       For you were born before it was all created, lol
          and you are so very experienced! lol

    answer?

  35. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Go away puppet! You don't even have enough truth to show who you really are!

    1. Shaul Stein profile image60
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      watch out man....incoming boomerang lol

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I hope that is not implying anything about the Australian people. Our Australian aboriginals would not take kindly to it if it was. smile

  36. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    Shaul Stein:

    A hundred questions in one post is the same thing as  hundred questions in a hundred posts. Why do I have to explain this to you? It seems obvious.

    Take your time, ask a question, wait for a response. Otherwise I'm not going to humor you. You've already given up on the topic of this thread out of your own insufficient understanding of God. If you want to continue talking to me about unrelated things, I don't mind. But I've already told you I'm not going trouble myself to answer a string of questions from you. Please ask them one at a time (for real) if you're so curious.

    1. Shaul Stein profile image60
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      who is God?

      1. Fairbear profile image60
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        God is God. There's really no other way to answer that question. Nothing compares to Him. Any definition you place on Him would fall short. He is who He is. You know who He is if you know Him. If you don't know Him, no one can tell you who He is.

        1. Shaul Stein profile image60
          Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          What is His Name?

          1. Fairbear profile image60
            Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I don't call Him by any name. I don't need to. Never have. And He has never required me to call Him by any name. That's how close we are. I've heard other people call Him by many names. I don't know if those are His names or not. They might be, who knows. As for me and my relationship to Him, no name is necessary.

  37. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Does not evil? sic
    You assume goodness on a violent maniac, but remove him from all the bad in the world, then blame his creation for it!

  38. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    You say you understand Him?

    Tell us.

    1. Fairbear profile image60
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Tell you what? Be specific. Do you want me to tell you everything I know about Him? There isn't enough room here for that. That's just another way of asking me a million questions all at once. You were doing great, keep it up.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image60
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So you worship this GOD?
        You say you know him face to face and yet He gives you no name?

        1. Fairbear profile image60
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          He doesn't desire worship. It's useless to Him. And I've already answered you about the name thing.

          1. Shaul Stein profile image60
            Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Do you love God?
            Adore God more than anything else?
            What does it mean to you, the word worship?

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              A plea from an insecure entity perhaps?

            2. Fairbear profile image60
              Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Yes I love God more than anything else, but it's more fitting to say that I need Him more than anything else.

              I'm not sure what worship means to me because I've never done it before. It seems unnatural to me. I don't see the purpose of it.

              1. Shaul Stein profile image60
                Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Well it is defined as:
                : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence.
                :extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to someone highly esteemed.

                You said you know God face to face,
                do you admire God?
                have respect and reverence for God,?
                esteem God highly?
                do you count God worthy of adoration?

                You say you know God but do not know what worship means?

                1. lrohner profile image84
                  lrohnerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Shaul, still no hubs from you? I'm beginning to have my doubts...  Sounds an awful lot like my 19 year old!

                  You want to spread your knowledge, experience and education, but only from those mediums that bring you instant gratification? Hmmmmm...

                  1. Shaul Stein profile image60
                    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Well my priorities are writing other things now.
                    Instant gratification?
                    Not the motive I do this for.
                    I like to debate and I like to write music.
                    The motive for which is to engage others in 2 different ways.

                2. Fairbear profile image60
                  Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, now I at least know the definition of the word worship, thanks to you.

                  The thing is, God doesn't need my admiration or reverence or high esteem. There's absolutely no purpose for it in our relationship. He doesn't need anything from me. I am the only one who needs anything, and He provides for me. That's the nature of our relationship. Worship, as you've defined, doesn't come into it.

                  Does that answer you? What's your point?

                  1. Shaul Stein profile image60
                    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    you said you love God, does God "need" your love? You say He does not need anything and that is true as God is needless. So why love Him either?

                    part of the definition is:

                    : affection based on admiration,
                    : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion
                    : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration
                    : affection and tenderness
                    : strong affection for another arising out of kinship

                    do you feel any of these for God?

                    it's not that God "needs" to be revered, God is worthy.

                  2. glendoncaba profile image81
                    glendoncabaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Judaism and Christianity we find God inviting worship.
                    The Mosaic sanctuary was built to be a place for the presence of God where daily corporate worship and sacrifices took place.

                    Your religion has no worship, no name for God, no...yet you come here to tell us that the old problem of the mystery of the origin of evil shows that Christianity is what?

                    The origin of evil is a mystery.  Simple as that.  Started in heaven in heart of Lucifer. 

                    And if I were God I would not have created knowing the possibility of evil; but guess what, He DID.  And I must now trust His love and wisdom despite the results of evil.

  39. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Fairbear  You sound like your god is a fair bit larger than some. smile

    1. Fairbear profile image60
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks!

  40. Fairbear profile image60
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    Well, I'm going to bed now. I'll pick up on this again tomorrow. It's been fun.

  41. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Your god seems to have made a huge mistake! mankind.

  42. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Worship? Now there is a word that says it all. Psychosis.The guys who wrote this stuff were so psychologically bent, that they assumed god "in their own image" to mean complete with hate and loathing for his own creation smile smile smile

  43. rosariomontenegro profile image87
    rosariomontenegroposted 7 years ago

    Bibowen. You give a name to the argument: Theodicy problem. And you say that it´s been abandoned because God must have his reasons for the evil of the world.
    Allow me: This is not an answer, there is no rhyme nor reason to it.
    They call God: Father. I can tell you as a parent that had I had the life of my child to create with my omniscience and power I would never have invented circumstances where torment were even a possibility. I would've only created bliss and in the child the most potent capabilities to experience everlasting bliss.

    The person who started this hub calls his argument a refutation of Christianity. In reality it´s a refutation of any asumption of the existence of a God Creator that can be at the same time Omnipotent, Omniscient and Supremely Good.
    I have been fed as a child the argument of free will and I don't even want to go there, it would be too easy. It's also too painful to reflect on it remembering the extremes of suffering beings endure ... at what time have they free will?

    I remember when I was young I absolutely wanted to love God and tried my best to defend Him in my own mind. I used to think, there must've been something that forced Him to create suffering and torment for his children, and then He did the best He could: since He could not avoid suffering, He sent to the world his only Child to share the suffering with us. Of course my poor religious nature was fighting for God! I didn't realize at the time that I had sent to the garbage his omnipotence.

    Somebody said before that God invented logic. There you go. Try to be logic and taste defeat. In the world of reason this is it: the original argument of this post cannot be refuted.

    1. Bibowen profile image90
      Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The argument has been refuted. You'll find that fewer and fewer atheists use it. When they do use it, it is more to express an emotional aversion to theodicy, not a logical one.

      What can I tell you? I'm sorry that your journey toward belief has been a painful one.

      The Bible is clear enough that those that reject God are His creation; they are not His children.

      I agree with you that the problem of theodicy touches any theism whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

      Given God and human free will, the possibility of evil must exist. Furthermore, if evil exists, God must exist.

      "Omnipotence" meaning "God can do anything" is a characterization, and not a good one. As I've said earlier, the church has never taught it. There are things God cannot do. You cannot make someone freely choose you. You just as well try to square the circle.

      If there is a conundrum here, it is that of a contrived definition, not theodicy. Omnipotence would apply to that being which is maximally powerful. That being is God. His Being would define what it means to be "maximally powerful." It can't be otherwise; it certainly can't be our preconceived notion of what we think it should be.

      1. rosariomontenegro profile image87
        rosariomontenegroposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        This free will argument does not hold. Why would He, God, have the unfair advantage of being blissful and good by nature, and not his creatures? Just in order for him to have some type of amusement? Just because it's more interesting to have people unsure and hesitating, than to have people that would be just like him, by nature good and blissful? "Oh I want them to love me and for this they need the temptation of what is not me, and thus, all the dangers of suffering and torment, fleeting and eternal." I don't know if people realize the insult they are inflicting onto the divine when they fantasize such cruel and selfish behaviour and attribute it to the divine.

        Thank you for the kind thought you had about my spiritual path. Don't worry, things are better now. I just do not believe in such God, all powerful, all knowing ... and hence so cruel. No way Jose. The sphere of the divine for me, to begin with, does not refer to one guy (Christians don't understand how right they are with the idea of Trinity, if only they realized it's the symbol of something much bigger than what they project on it), and does not imply anybody high or low with omnipotence; only infinite wisdom, infinite love, infinite bliss, of which I am capable too, which I am on my way to reach some day, and of which you and all my beloved beings, human and not human, are capable too, and I will do my best for ages to come to help make this an actual reality for all without exception.

        I have to say that I appreciate this thread very much. There is much sincerity and much effort at intelligence, together with a low level of aggression, which is the tone that should prevail in the religious Forum.

        There are so many good things that we all have in common albeit expressed in different ways and also in different levels. It would be nice to go on talking to discern them. Life is so short and love so profound...

        1. Valerie F profile image60
          Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          As a parent, I'd find that an effective means of stunting a child's emotional growth, all bliss and no choice in the matter. If you remove the option of anything less than bliss, you remove the capability to choose, and therefore the capacity to do genuine good. Good isn't as good if its automatic, if you're only doing what you're programmed to do and you have absolutely no other option.

          1. rosariomontenegro profile image87
            rosariomontenegroposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Valerie, thank you for answering.
            I think you will understand if I tell you that we are not using the word bliss with the same meaning here. I don't imagine that the bliss of God can damage anybody.
            Anyway, I have to say that your defense of God is brave and touching. Keep on with it.

            1. Shaul Stein profile image60
              Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              What is bliss to you?
              What is love to you?

  44. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    There was not a lot of logic around when they wrote the bible apparently, or any understanding of psychology either!

    Hate. The biblical view of psychology smile.


    #  Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
    # Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
    # Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
    # Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
    # Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels


    You will note that it is not their behavior that is the problem, it is them personally that this Spiteful little god hates! smile

  45. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 7 years ago

    I have to say that "free will" is the answer to the conundrum. If there is no alternative, there is no choice. If there is no choice, there is no free will to choose!
    Being that God is all Omni-all, anything not of Him, is by any definition opposed/opposite of Him, and therefore evil.
    He calls it SIN.
    Sin brings death.
    Death is opposite of LIFE, (in God), so HE dealt with the SIN issue.
    But the sad thing about all this is that God HIMSELF, has paid a far higher price for this "free will" than man has.
    Yet, man still continues to rail against Him. sad sad sad

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What a lot of rot! Men give their sons to death everyday. Little babies die because you lot are fighting over who's invisible and apparently impotent god does what best? Judge?
      What a crock! smile

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Hello. No more Mr Nice Guy. huh? sad
        Are you talking about "aborted babies"?
        And wars, where exactly? hmm
        Men don't "give their sons", they go. I thought conscription was a thing of the past. What country are you referring to? hmm

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Take your pick!
          Currently we have a good mix! :)Nigeria.
          Bosnia
          Lebanon
          Ulster
          Turkey/Cyprus
          Philippines
          Pakistan/India
          just a few. History is riddled with religious wars too. smile

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            So, again, you are affirming the free will argument. I think I am not the first ever to say that it's man who kills man. He will use god, religion, money, power, racism, anger, rage, hate...whatever to justify himself in doing so.
            The harsh reality is, that if I "play the devil's advocate" (as they say), you have NO argument. Why? I'll tell you why.
            If there really IS NO GOD, then evolution must be true. Therefore, the strong kill the weak, as a matter of pure animal instinct, and cannot be judged as evil, wrong or bad. What reasoning "he" uses is relative, not absolute. Anyone "he" kills is only dead and gone back to dust, and "life goes on". There ought to be no morality, injustice or criminality tied to it.
            I am writing like a fool! Tell me I'm wrong! Please! sad sad sad

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Your wrong! smile We do not all operate purely though the old brain, and do have control over our actions without needing religion to do so. Religion is hardwired to fear of death in the old or "lizard brain" It can be disconnected with knowledge. smile

              1. aka-dj profile image79
                aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Ahh, so I'm a lizard brain? (no offence taken BTW)
                So, all we need to do is re-program the religious "lizard brains" with knowledge, and we will have no more wars or evil, or killing in the world.
                I see why the "christian schools" are so bad now.
                One thing I can say, you guys have one HECK of a job on your hands. hmm

                1. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I was not signaling you out of all of mankind. We all have a brain which is partly primitive. Enough scientific evidence to support it since 1939.
                  Another interesting factor is brain chemistry which when altered changes beliefs. There is much to know about how the brain operates, but thanks to an early experiment we do know where our rage comes from. smile

  46. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 7 years ago

    Do you honestly believe that this brain "thingy" is the answer to all mankind. Where does the concept of evil, and wrong, and injustice come from? If we are hard wired as such, why care? Just BE! hmm

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Not at all. We can grow in understanding, Carl Jung has a good understanding of hardwired religiosity as does science. The deeper knowledge is self knowledge. I am what you would call love or good, and I am also the evil or devil. As I understand myself, especially my evil, then I am no longer controlled by denial or ego and make decisions based on love to the best of my current ability which is under constant review.
      Religion does not make you good or bad, but it provides symbols and archetypes of the already known in our subconscious mind, so we are both. "The human condition is no condition to be in."  smile

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The Apostle Paul wrote about this inner struggle in Romans. It's a fundamental part of our makeup. You may describe it in different ways, but the teachings within the NT are actually there to equip the "saints" to overcome.The NT teachings do not call believers to kill others, but to "kill" the desires/lusts of the flesh. It exalts living for the Spirit,and not the flesh. (Spirit, meaning all that is GOOD) And is certainly lists what those GOOD things are.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I am aware of many intelligent writings in the bible. (I did study it for two years intensely in three languages.) smile

          1. glendoncaba profile image81
            glendoncabaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Would that be Greek, Hebrew and English.

            Yes, I'm back but after spending 3 days in the presence of a wonderful Muslim guide in Egypt I have very little appetite for the things that divide us.  But so that I don't deny my Lord I must await your response in order to talk with you.

  47. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Greek mythology follows a similar psychological path as the bible, but it is more transparent in some ways. The god has family, each representing an aspect of consciousness is part of the transparency, the gods are like emotions and weaknesses personified from the terrifying Zeus who seems to have most of the tendencies of his worst children.
    The gods are not taken as literal gods, they represent an accurate account of the human condition, and science now fills the remaining gaps. The problem pending is getting mankind to make the leap. Not bloody likely for a hundred years or more. smile

    1. Bibowen profile image90
      Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Even if we were to grant you all of this (and I don't), it's irrelevant as to whether actions such as rape are really wrong. Explaining how I came to know a thing to be right or wrong deals with the epistemological question, but it does not address the ontological question of whether those actions I mentioned, and others, are really wrong. That is, does evil exist?

      How we come to know whether or not an action is wrong and whether it is wrong are two distinct questions.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        OK that's fare enough. I only have a 3 part series on Ontological Evil, at the moment. smile

  48. 0
    Risa Attrellposted 7 years ago

    You said you'd like to hear another explination. There's a very simple Jewish explination to this. The Jews believe that G-d is all good and all knowing. But we do NOT accept the concept of 'Eternal Hell.' That is something the Christians invented. They say if you dont believe in jesus you go to hell for all eternity. Jews believe this is utter nonesense. Even if someone sins, they may go to hell for a period of time to cleanse their soul, and then they can go to heaven. If you take out this idea of an eternal hell, your argument falls apart.

    1. Fairbear profile image60
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree whole-heartedly with you. That's why my thread is directed at Christianity specifically. Thanks for answering my question. I think Judaism is a much more sensible religion than Christianity.

      1. Daniel Carter profile image90
        Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Personally, I think all religion falls apart in the end. The reason that I have determined (which is only my thinking) is that we "think" and "reason" as humans. We even define God in human terms. If God is God, then defining him in human terms makes him like us, in all the fallable ways. Doesn't add up at all in my head. Thus, I think we make up stories about him for eons trying to figure him out, when I think what we really need to do is much simpler: just "be". Stop doing, and just "be." Be still and be aware.

        All the other mumbo jumbo seems to be mouse mazes to entertain the mind.

    2. glendoncaba profile image81
      glendoncabaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      There are many Christian theologians who have arrived at the conclusion that there is no eternal hell.  Only the result of the destruction is eternal.  I happen to be one of those who believe that hell is a one time burning with eternal results.

  49. Valerie F profile image60
    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago

    Are the areas of the brain that are more active during prayer limited to the R complex?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I see you ignored my last post to you so here it is again:



      Now you can feel free to respond instead of asking questions you are too inadequate to understand the answers to. wink

      Do unto others. I am lovin' it. lol

      1. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, you assume I take a tone that I never intended to come across. This being a written forum, tones of voice are often assumed, correctly and otherwise. You and I both know (I guess I am making an assumption here, too, but I'm assuming you possess at least equal knowledge here)that in a written forum, even the most neutrally written posts can take on different tones depending in part on the perspectives and moods of the reader, and miscommunication is a frequent occurrence.

        Even "have a nice day," can come off to people as something other than an expression of good will.

        You and I seem a lot alike in one regard. You make yourself abundantly clear where I stand with you. And if I really regarded you as in any way inferior to me on the basis of your philosophy, I'd have told you straight up, like I told you how I believe you are projecting your own arrogance onto me. There's no need to read anything into my statements that I did not write.

        That being said, I dislike your tendency to automatically assume the worst in people, like your assumption that most parents have children for selfish reasons.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I am perfectly capable of discerning the intent behind the words thank you. And there is only one way to take the things you say, such as these:



          Passive/aggressive attacks, with a touch of condescension.

          You quite clearly state that there are only two possibilities here and as no one here is god, you are calling this person you were speaking to wrong, delusional and arrogant or accusing them of being a liar.

          What do you not understand about this way of speaking to people being offensive?

          This is the entire problem with your irrational belief system. Any belief system that encourages the sort of attitudes you display is wrong, and goes a long way to persuading me that there is no god.

          So - you are the one incapable of seeing what you are doing wrong, and I will continue to speak to you in the condescending tone that reflects the things you say.

          I know - you just don't get it. You cannot understand why after 1500 years of calling people fools for not believing, and at the same time claiming to be doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is causing an "unfounded attack," on god and his followers.

          What is so difficult to understand here? I am trying to explain it as clearly as I can. I see that you just do not get how it comes across. Why? Because you believe in god and you must therefore be right. It says in your book to do this, therefore anyone who is offended is evil, deluded or the anti-christ.

          And just because my conclusions are not the same of yours, that does not make them assumptions. Take it from me - many, many people have children for selfish reasons. In fact, the only reason to have children is to increase the chances of your genes being passed on.

  50. BJC profile image68
    BJCposted 7 years ago

    God is good and infallible.  However, if one believes the Bible, it clearly states that satan is the ruler of the earth.

    When Adam and Eve disobeyed God's instruction not to eat the apple, evil entered the earth.  Therefore turning over the ownership of the earth to satan for a season.

    God created people who could make choices because God did not want robots.  It's similar to being a parent, you want your children to love you because of who you are and not what you can do.

    If you want a religion where there is perfection, you won't find one.  People refute Christianity because it's not what they want to hear.  Christians have been passive for too long thus giving all Christians a bad name. 

    Either way, you can believe or not, the choice is yours.

 
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