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Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

  1. Fairbear profile image61
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    I'll pick up on this thread where I left off in the last, but on a new topic. The last one was about a flaw in Christian theology, namely, the impossible definition of God. This one is about protective coloring in the Christian mentality; a smokescreen; the corrupt use of misdirection, complication, and invention in order to disguise and conceal an otherwise glaring necessity in Christian theology --that God sends people to Hell.

    Christians hate to admit this, to themselves as well as to non-believers. They use free-will reasoning as a tool with which to conceal it, cover it up, and mask it. They find endless new ways to weave the concept of free will so that it diverts attention away from the obvious. But I'm going to lay it out for you clearly and plainly so that no honest, fair, and attentive Christian can contort it  and hide it from sight.

    God created Hell, and God created the rules.

    Free will or no free will, these two facts of Christianity cannot be eliminated. They can be hidden, sure; Christians do it all the time. But they cannot be eradicated. So here they are out from under the rug of deception. Here they are in the light of day. 

    Some of you may not understand how these two facts prove that God sends people to Hell, so I'll clarify.

    The first fact needs no clarification. God did indeed create Hell. If He didn't, who did? Some other divine being?
    The second fact is the more important one. It would be OK if God only created Hell for Satan and the fallen angels. Some Christians insist this is the case. But in doing so they totally ignore the fact that God made the rules. Tell me if I have this rule wrong ---

    RULE: "Anyone who does not believe in and accept Jesus Christ in their lifetime will spend eternity in Hell."

    If God didn't make this rule, who did? Who created this condition? Who decided on these terms?
    Did God have no choice in the matter?

    When a parent spanks a child, who does the spanking? The parent.
    When a jude sentences a criminal to prison, who does the sentencing? The judge.
    When a human dies and is sentenced to Hell, who does the sentencing? The Judge (God)

    To say anything else is just dishonest.

    1. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree.
      God does impose the sentence. But because of this He is construed as, "evil". I would disagree. It makes Him, JUST. I never wrote God did not write the laws. In fact I said that. And that is why I believe it to be absurd that anyone would argue as to "who" deserves to be punished for for breaking them.

      Free Will is not "used as a tool.." to mask anything. In every complex society there has got to be rules/laws etc. There is a sort of Yin and Yang to all in the universe. A good and bad. A opposite to everything.

      What the nonbelievers like to do, as with you as well I see is to IGNORE the fact that God just as He wrote the laws, created hell and the consequences for sin/disbelief, He also created forgiveness, redemption, a pardon for those consequences. Free will was designed in an effort by God to allow mankind a choice.
      We were NOT in other words, designed as mindless machines programmed to love Him, serve Him etc.

      But here is the two edge sword of free will: That we can and sometimes do choose to disobey or not believe.
      You chose to use the example of a parent who spanks their child. That parent as you put it carries out a sentence.
      The child disobeyed.
      The parent set the rules.
      The parent carried out the justice.
      Does that then make it the parents "fault" for spanking or the child's disobediance/choice to break the rules?

      We have rule of law in the land, they are written as are the consequences.
      A judge enforces that law and carries out justice.
      A criminal made a choice to break the law.
      A judge imposes sentencing.
      Is it then the judges "fault" the criminal now sits behind bars or the judicial system's fault for writing the laws, or is it the criminals fault for breaking the law?

      In either of those cases does it make the parent or judge or even the laws/rules and or consequences "evil"?

      Prisons serve a purpose. Would one say they are "evil" places? Maybe. None the less they serve a purpose as they confine people who break the law as punishment for their crimes. And we, accept that. we may not like knowing there are people in them knowing they are not free, knowing they do not enjoy the comforts we on the "outside" do, but we accept it as we could not possibly allow for those inside to run amuck and wreak havic commiting more crime(s). Too we see prisons as a benefit in the regard that becuase they exist and peopple know and see where they will go if they break the law, there is a greater number of people who would rather not end up there and so they choose to not break the law.

      Hell is the same. It does in fact serve a purpose. It was intended for Satan and fallen angels and yes, those who break Gods laws or really, this that in itself is not true. I break Gods laws from time to time. Nobody is "sinless". Yet I as a believer have chosen to take my pardon. simply because one is a sinner does not impose the penalty of hell. You said right, "anyone who does accept or believe in Christ..." Ok, having said that I will get back to my point about hell.

      God is perfect. His kingdom is perfect. In that perfection there is no and cannot be any lawlessness. I think we can all agree that a perfect society would be in fact, free from crime.
      Or atleast those who would rather, choose to commit crimes.

      Now one might say that an eternity in hell burning forever is a torturous way to live and not fitting for the crimes of man. But it is written very clearly that a disbeliief will then only lead to that sentence. So then, if knowing that, why would one choose then to ignore it and not believe in Christ? Just as a criminal who commits murder in a state with the death penalty realizes he/she may get caught and sentenced to death, yet willingly commits the act anyway, regardless of the outcome.

      1. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes it is. If you'll look a few posts previous to yours you'll see that Lady E. did just that. She used free will to cover up the fact that the parent in her scenario sent the child to Aunty's. Since you agree with me that God does the sending, then you'd have to disagree with her and see how she is indeed using free will as a concealment tool. So there you have it --people do that all the time. I'm sure we'll see it again on this thread.

        As for the rest of your enormous post, first I'll tell you that if you think this thread is in response to your post on my other thread, you are mistaken. It's just a coincidence of timing.

        Furthermore, this thread has nothing to do with whether or not God is evil. All this thread is about is whether or not God sends people to Hell, and you are in agreement with me about that. It is you who felt the necessity to go to such lengths to defend your God's image as a good and loving being.

        But I'll go along with it on one point.

        You ask if a parent spanks a child for disobeying, is it the parents fault that the child got spanked? I'd say no. It's not the parent's fault, the parent was just carrying out justice, like you said. The fault in this case lies with the child. But lets alter the scenario a little bit. What if the parent shot the child in the head for disobeying? Whose fault would the child's death be? Anyone would say it is the parent's fault. Why? Because a parent who shoots their child for disobeying is evil. In no way was it the child's fault that it died. Even if the child's disobedience was unspeakable, it would still be the parent's fault. Because the punishment went far beyond the boundaries of reasonability and fairness, not to mention the law.

        And this is my opinion about the Christian God. He is evil for sending people to Hell. If you disagree and think He is Good for sending people to Hell, then that's just a difference of opinion between you and me. You could say whatever you wanted and I would always think that your God is evil for sending people to Hell. But that's not what this thread was supposed to be about. On the topic of this thread, you and I agree. God sends people to Hell.

      2. BJC profile image68
        BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Atomswifey gave a very clear and concise response.  Non-believers cannot stand the thought of hell being a real place, but it is for those who choose not to accept Christ.

      3. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        This is the first thing you posted to this thread. I cut out all of the rest of it because this one statement is the ONLY thing that applies the point I'm trying to make.

        Are you going to go back on your own statement?

        You've agreed with my point. I have no other issue with you and your beliefs. You managed to be honest, and that is commendable. Thank you. Now why don't you stand by your own words.

        1. Fairbear profile image61
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this
    2. IntimatEvolution profile image82
      IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Could you show me the passage where it says that?  I think it is really important to show that to everyone.  I would hate for you to just be spouting Christian nonsense unnecessarily.  So I am very interested in reading the FACTUAL(?) text.  Good luck finding it.

    3. 0
      pgrundyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Wow. I notice you have zero hubs and one fan. And you come here and post this rot? Clearly you are just spoiling for a fight.

      I'll take damnation, thanks. All my friends will be in hell, and frankly, I don't want any part of a God who sets up such a perverse test and then punishes people forever if they fail it. I wouldn't be friends with a PERSON like that, never mind a Supreme Being. Have you considered that if you are right you will have to hang around with this hardass insecure deity for all eternity? Can't God just go buy a big pickup truck or new sportscar to compensate for His Insecurities? Is the only option he has for his perversity to take it out on mankind?

      That's sad.

      Hanging around with such a God sounds like hell to me. You are welcome to it if that is what you want.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Very sad and pathetic sad

      2. atomswifey profile image68
        atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It's a perverse test to accept Jesus or not, to accept that "pardon" for all the sin of mankind?
        How does God in creating us with free will insecure for doing that?
        insecure - lacking self-confidence or assurance
        insecure - not firm or firmly fixed; likely to fail or give way
        insecure - lacking in security or safety
        God is assurance He has no need for mans terms as far as "self confidence" is concerned
        God is firmly fixed, He NEVER fails!
        God is security and safety

        To be insecure is to be seperate from God:
        You cannot be "self confident" if you do not know yourself, and you cannot claim to know yourself if you deny the "God" in you, that is: the parts of you which He is a part of.
        You are not firnly fixed, you  being human are likely fail from time to time
        There is no safety in depending on yourself or any other man for that matter, when concerning your future

        There are some who like to attach "human adjectives" in relation to God and do that in itself is blasphemy.
        God is in no way bound by the restraints of this world, man is
        God is not sinful, man is
        God did not fall, man did, and has, and continues to

        God wants to give you life
        God wants for you to be made new
        God wants for you to love Him as He loves you
        God wants for you to be saved in essence from yourself, to have the slate wiped clean through the acceptance of His son, through belief in Him and forgiveness is granted ALWAYS!
        What man or judge will ever do the same?
        You said it yourself, you would not like someone, or be friends with a PERSON who was perverse like that, and yet
        GOD does
        He loves you regardless of your sin
        He loves you and is willing to forgive you regardless of your denial of Him.
        God sacrificed Himself for you and all of mankind so that even the most hardened criminals against Him could be set free

        Think of this way,
        You are standing in front of a judge after being found guilty of a lifetime of multiple crimes, crimes which you have stored up in that lifetime. A MULTITUDE of them and the judge says to you,
        Just accept and believe in me, ask for forgiveness and I will wipe your record clean and set you free.
        Thats God.

        This perversion you speak of is exactly what God hates! He hates the perversion of mankind. He hates the multiple crimes man has commited in direct defiance of Him.
        To God, no matter how "good" you think you are, you are not. It is His standard of excellence, His standard of perfection that you will be judge on, not mans!

        Who is it that says one is good or not good, evil or not evil?
        Man (The world)?
        But Man(the world) has varying degrees of this. The world judges according to what the world views as good or evil and that judgement is always failing.
        The reason?
        The world is not perfect. The world is flawed. The world is neither moral nor ethical (good). So what then gives the world the authority to judge mankind if being neither moral or ethical(good) on things which are moral and ethical(good)?

        God being perfectly good can be the only judge as to what is good and for that too, what is right or lawful.

      3. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You've got me all wrong. You totally misread my post. I am not a Christian. I was not defending the Christian position. I was exposing it for its true nature which Christians try to hide. Get it now?

    4. Daniel Carter profile image90
      Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If God created "the rules" then he created a hell of a lot of rule breakers. No one is exempt from that. Seems to me if there is a god, he wouldn't sabotage our existence with such stuff. Seems to me that people make rules so that they can esteem themselves better than others.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The thing is God doesn't exist in M O. ,because he couldn't be such a masochist ! Rules to be break or not !! what a gambler ! big_smile

        1. atomswifey profile image68
          atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          God is not the "gambler", you are. You are wagering your soul on the belief that He is not there, not really even knowing that for sure.
          Knowing of the consequences of that as you do, I would say that is a HUGE gamble!

          1. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Don't worry !! I always have a trump under my sleeve !! big_smile for such a case lol

            1. atomswifey profile image68
              atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Really and what "trump" might that be?

              1. tantrum profile image61
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                not telling my game lol  but it's fair play :lol.

                1. atomswifey profile image68
                  atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  "telling" your play to God makes no difference, He's alredy seen your hand!

                  1. tantrum profile image61
                    tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                      .lol: lol don't make me laugh. I'm about to colapse lol

                  2. atomswifey profile image68
                    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    And too, you really will have no "play" in that case.
                    If you do not believe in God, and He exists, what sort of "play" would you have or will you have to refute it then?

    5. Bibowen profile image89
      Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      God does send people to hell in the sense that a judge sentences the criminal. God also makes the rules, but His rules are consistent with His character. I can act in a way that does not conform to my character; God never does. On this point, we are probably more in agreement than not.

      Yes, I'm ultimately responsible for what happens within the four walls of my house. But I hold my children responsible for their behavior. They are morally-culpable agents even though I am ultimately responsible.

      But, if you want to imply that "God is responsible," I'd ask, "to whom is he responsible"?

      1. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No implications. I outlined my point clearly. My only intention was to call Christians out for trying to hide the true nature of their religion by saying that God doesn't send people to Hell. I appreciate your honesty. The difference between you and I is that you think God is good for sending people to Hell. I think a God who sends people to Hell can be nothing but evil. And that, for both of us,  is strictly a matter of opinion.

      2. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Whoever made him I guess! lol

    6. 0
      ellie1142545posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "Anyone who does not believe in and accept Jesus Christ in their lifetime will spend eternity in Hell."

      I know you believe this to be true, but....What if a person says, "Forgive me of my sins Lord, Jesus save me," in his/her last breath...Won't that person be saved?  You can answer here, or in a private message to me....

      1. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You're wrong. I don't believe this to be true.

      2. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Send me a private message  when you realize how pathetic you are. I can recommend a good therapist in your area.

        I can even help with your obvious lack of education. wink

        1. 0
          ellie1142545posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No thanks Mark....There's enough crazy people on the web already without adding another one...

        2. 0
          ellie1142545posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Oh by the way...I've had plenty of education, and it's all from the Lord God's Hands.....After all He created all...Including you, but you just refuse to believe it....

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Not a very good advertisement then. You could try reading some books - that might help. I assume you can read.

            I suspect your definition of the word "education," has been "interpreted" to mean something other than it's real meaning.

            Good luck scaring some people into believing the same stuff you do. I am sure Jesus would be very proud. wink

            1. LiamBean profile image90
              LiamBeanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Mark, you are such a likable curmudgeon.

              By the way; I thought the name was "jeebus." I say that a lot so figured that was the right name. My favorite thing to say to the radical "soldiers of gawduh" is "Jeebus protect me from your worshipers."

              Now when "you people" get serious I hope you turn to FSM. He IS the one true gawduh. Ra-men.

    7. 59
      friskeyperposted 7 years ago in reply to this
    8. macbeth25 profile image62
      macbeth25posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You have expressed your beliefs -- I disagree so, it's my turn.  God may "send people to Hell," but they've already paid for the ticket.  God gave us free will and free choice including the right to disbelieve in Him and disobey His teachings.  He also gave us a set of rules, the commandments, ethics, or whatever you choose to call them.  All major religions have them and they are mostly the same regarding murder, theft, harming others in any way and the like.  If you know the Christian Bible, you know God has a temper – He is quite capable of becoming angry and will take direct action if He does.  Sodom and Gomorrah and Noah’s Flood are just some examples.  At the same time, I don’t believe He intervenes very often.  He will have plenty of time to “reward” transgressors after they pass from this “veil of tears.”  I believe each choice closes some doors on the path of life and opens other doors, or perhaps windows.  Our location on the path at any given time depends upon the choices we made to get to that spot.  I believe God sometimes asks us to do things.  If we hear Him and decide to do as He asks, He may reward us.  On the other hand, should we not hear or not do as He asks, I don’t believe He punishes us but allows us to go our way to wherever our path might take us.  This means that God didn’t tell David to fight Goliath, He asked him to do it.  When David decided to do God’s wish, God helped guide the stone to the right target.  I don’t ask you to believe as I do.  I’m merely expressing my beliefs and I’m comfortable with them.  I wish you and all others equal comfort in theirs

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Me too , sorry I have only gone back a couple of pages ,and it sure looks like a busy lil thread.

        I came to finish a hub and my naughty lil fingers came to the forum lol

        Places the coffee pot on the side table -help yourselves smile

      2. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The only point I've made in my post is a point that you agree with. That God sends people to Hell. I said nothing about why He sends people to Hell. That's beside the point. You and I are in agreement about the topic of this thread.

    9. auntiebree profile image60
      auntiebreeposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      First of all, most of what you say is all true.  I am saved, believe it God, go to church, there are many things I don't understand or agree with.  (free will) 

          God did make hell for Lucifer and his followers and it was never his intention for us to go to hell.  He didn't expect to have to send Lucifer there either.  Lucifer was God's most beautiful, most thought of angel.

            I have seen many things in the bible that a different section contradicts.  Why?  each book is one persons account, we all see and understand things differently. (point of view)

           I was brought up a Protestant, where the old testament was used.  I was taught you got to heaven by being good.

           When I think about it myself, I don't understand how someone can be nasty thier whole life and repent, then go to heaven. 

           I personally believe there are levels of heaven.  Simply, if you go to a concert, we can't all have a front row seat.

           I personally think the world hasn't ended yet, because Jesus does not want to lose one soul. 

           I also feel there is a level of accountability.  Someone insane cannot stand in the same light as a person who sins and knows it.

    10. thevoice profile image62
      thevoiceposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Gopd Jesus the holy spirit may not send any human life to hell since human life has been made into hell by the human classification of human life such as religions race nation. God by Jesus taught only of human birth life teachings of Jesus life with God always. Religions have placed child of God againts child of God this wrong God Jesus the holy spirit are first always human birth right of God.

    11. 59
      KURTKposted 7 years ago in reply to this
    12. nikki1 profile image61
      nikki1posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      God didn't create hell.. the serpent who went against God did. Lusiver.. God is all the good things in this world. Beautiful skies, birds singing, happiness in the world. God loves all of us, its our turn to return the favor. He has faith in all of us. He believes in all of us..
      http://hubpages.com/hub/having-faith-101
      Hugs to all..

    13. TToni9 profile image61
      TToni9posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      TToni9---H. G. Adams wrote, "Hell is truth seen too late."
      Most often, if one does not feel the need to communicate with Jesus and believe in Him they are quite disinterested in whether there is a Hell  or not.
      As I read your article I ask myself if you are trying to convince others or yourself about  the matter.
      To me, hell is the natural consequence to actions unrepented.  It's natural negative and positive physics. We end up where we belong. You've taken time to complain about God, why not try giving Him the benefit of the doubt?  Not because you'll suffer Hell if you don't but because of how much we miss out on without a heavenly Father to turn to for a deeper life meaning.  Hell in the Bible  is described best as "the abscence of (relationship with) God/Jesus". If you don't know Him than why would you want to spend eternity with Him?  And if we don't know Him in a positive way we may be found inside the consequences of leading others astray unwittingly.   Like I quoted by H.G.Adams, "Hell is Truth seen too late."

    14. world of the wise profile image23
      world of the wiseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You need a days lessons, understanding the ways of God is not simple for everyone. Do you accept me as a teacher?

      1. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Please teach me a lesson. I need one, teacher.

  2. Lady_E profile image81
    Lady_Eposted 7 years ago

    God is a loving God and does not send people to Hell.
    People have choices.

    Scenario!
    You have a child and say to the child if you behave well this month, we will go to Eurodisney for Xmas, but if you don't, I will send you to Aunty and it will be a very boring xmas.
    Do you love the child? Ofcourse.

    Child behaves - you go away for Xmas.
    Child doesn't - away to Boring Aunty.

    Did you send the child to the Aunty or did they make the Choice?

    The Child made the Choice. You did not send them. Punto!

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I will never send my child to Aunty !  lol I will never punish my child, because I love him. I will give advice and then ,free will. If he still wants to behave bad?...In the end experience will show him the right path. I will never, never create a Hell for my child!...Now.If I'm brainwashed....

      1. atomswifey profile image68
        atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If you do not correct or otherwise punish your children they become spoiled rotten brats and end up in places like prison. They have not learned the concept of earning priviledges, have not learn to take responsibility and have have not learned that there ARE consequences for bad behavior.
        When we discipline a child We ARE in fact loving them.

        Now this goes without saying that sometimes, just as with God and us, you instruct your children, correct them, supply all the neccessary needs, offer them guidance, create rules, tell of of the consequences for breaking them etc. and they still choose to disobey. And that is where their/our free will comes into play.

        You gave a double negative to your comment there too: "In the end experience will show him the right path."  What "end experience" are you talking about? A consequence perhaps???

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            In the end, experience..(.not end experience)

      2. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        What if your child punches you in the face, or kicks your spouse ?

        Do you "give him advice" ?

      3. Lady_E profile image81
        Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Lol. We'll send them off to Aunty Doubtfire.

        http://img.listal.com/image/404461/600full-mrs.-doubtfire-photo.jpg

        1. atomswifey profile image68
          atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          LOL that wouldn't be much of a punishment though, she's way too much fun! smile

      4. 0
        rednckwmnposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I promise you, experience can be crueler then gentle punishment as a young child. LOVE necessitates you teach your child, there are results to actions. (Hell is a different story..)

      5. 0
        SirDentposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Herein lies the problem with the parents of today. They do not love their children enough topunish them for wrongdoing. If you actually love your child, you will punish your child when necessary.

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Whatever you say, sir. I don't care

    2. Fairbear profile image61
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      This is absurd (no offense). Did the child make the choice? Yes. Did the child know the consequences? Yes. Did the child enforce the consequences? No. The parent enforced the consequences. The parent designed the consequences. The parent set the conditions. This isn't a question of whether the parent loves the child. Nor is it a question of whether the child could have avoided the consequences. It is a question of who established the rules. The parent did.

      Your scenario is exactly the kind of diversion from the obvious that I mentioned.

      1. Lady_E profile image81
        Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        As much as possible, I avoid religious posts because I think a lot of them are posted with the intention to provoke certain people. (then again, I could be wrong).

        I will not be getting into a long reply session with you (as is the norm in Religious threads) but the fact of the matter is: God doesn't send people to hell. Hopefully, someone else will make a posting to help you understand this.

        All that's left for me to say is: Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
        Cheers.

      2. atomswifey profile image68
        atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh I see, so you're saying God is evil etc. for writing the laws in the first place?

        In other words, had God not wrote the laws, nobody would be found guilty of breaking them and consequently, nobody would ever go to hell, right?

        But in everything in nature there are rules/laws. Why should God be any different in enforcing His own?
        What you are doing is criticizing the law itself.

        A criminal could say the same of society in creating it's laws.
        had the laws not been written there would be no reason for creating/building prisons. No body would be guilty afterall of breaking crimes that do not exist.

        1. Fairbear profile image61
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I'm only saying that God's punishment makes Him evil. I don't care about the laws. It's the punishment that matters.

          Would you say that Sadam Hussein's laws during his dictatorship were questionable and evil? Of course you would. That's why he was taken out of power and executed. Just because a person, or being has the power to decide the rules and the consequences doesn't mean that person or being is right for doing so. Power does not equate righteousness. Just look at Adolph Hitler. And that's all I'm saying about God. He is Evil for sending people to Hell. Just like Hitler was Evil to sentence Jewish people to the concentration camps.

          1. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              a punishing God is a delusion of brainwashed minds full of fear of the unknown. And of feeble people in need of a God who punishes wrong, as that's the only way, it seems ,they can achieve righteousness, being so wrong themselves

            1. atomswifey profile image68
              atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              And where do you draw your conclusions from that we are wrong, that is, to believe in a God that punishes wrong?
              Who are you to sit in judgement on who is wrong or what system of beliefs are wrong?
              To judge us that we are "full of fear" etc.
              we are not full of fear, but are in fact, full of the opposite of fear, faith.

              When you go to sit on a chair, do you have a fear it will not support you? Do you question it's strength and integrity to support you? No. You simply sit having full faith it will support you.
              In much the same way, we Christians have faith in God. we do not fear Him or any punishment from Him, we love Him and know we are free from punishment from Him because of our faith.

              1. atomswifey profile image68
                atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this
                1. tantrum profile image61
                  tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    you love the word 'judge', don't you ?? I'm not judging anyone !!! I'm giving my opinion !!

                  1. atomswifey profile image68
                    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I am not the one who first used that word(judging), you did!

                    And in giving your "opinion" you were in fact judging:
                    To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration to
                    a. Law To hear and decide on in a court of law; try: judge a case.
                    b. Obsolete To pass sentence on; condemn.
                    c. To act as one appointed to decide

                    2. To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation
                    3. Informal To have as an opinion or assumption; suppose
                    4. To form an opinion or evaluation

                    So what were saying again???

                2. 0
                  wordscribe41posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Since you are so fond of meaningless analogies and semantics to demonstrate your faith, let me give you one to demonstrate my lack thereof:

                  When  you go to bed at night, do you have a fear there is a crocodile under your bed waiting to eat your flesh?  Do you feel like you need to stay awake all night worrying it will come to get you?  No.  You simply lie in bed having full faith it's not there and will not get you.

                  In much the same way, we atheists have no faith in God.  We do not fear him or any punishment from him.

                  1. atomswifey profile image68
                    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Ahhh but there it is isn't it???
                    You have no fear of the crocodile because you know for sure it is not there! But how do you know for sure it isn't? And to conclude for certain that it isn't one might be inclined to look under the bed right?

                    I mean, you could argue, well I do not live in a place where crocodiles do, therefor, I do not believe one is there. But our belief is that God is everywhere.
                    So, if there were crocodiles everywhere, one might think it possible to have one under their bed.

                    So then, in your faith that asserted there, are you claiming that you have searched every nook and cranny of time and space and found God to not be there?

          2. atomswifey profile image68
            atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            But now you say it is the punishment that is the problem. That God is evil or wrong becuase YOU believe the punishment does not "fit" the crime.
            But there you said it: "Power does not equate righteousness." righteousness : It is an attribute that implies that a person's actions are justified.
            You being his creation are not the one to decide if God was justified in His actions when creating Hell, His laws, and the consequences. You look at them and think according to your own limited perception that the consequences of sin are not fair or do not fit the crime.

            God does not have the need nor desire to "justify" his actions. He is God afterall and created those hearts you speak of. Our founders did not construct laws with "heart" in mind. They constructed law with justice in mind.

            God is JUSTICE. He created both law and justice. Again, you used the example of a judge sentencing a person to death for a traffic ticket because you reason that for a judge to do that he would be un-just. so the opposite would be true then, that a ticket is warranted and that a ticket is all that is needed or required to prevent further traffic infractions. Ok. I agree with that.
            that is reasonable.
            but then you argue and gave the example of Saddam and yes I agree he was a monster who deserved death. But there we reason that his crimes were severe enough to warrant death. We reasoned that, we did not give any regard to heart when it came to justice for him.

            The same is true with God. He is very clear on the law of sin that He created. He sees it much as we do in the above case, that sin corrupts, it lies, it kills, it destroys the very relationship He wants to have with us. He sees it as the most detestable thing man does. And there are no "degrees" of sin. In other words, God sees the nonbeliever just as guilty as someone like Saddam.

            He is no respector of persons! In our world, man is served justice according to varying degrees of guilt and or infractions. But in God's kingdom, EVERY sin is just as bad as the next.

            Too, God sees that people as He created them, have the capacity to choose life over death. They have the capacity to do right and not wrong. They have as He has given them, the opportunity to save themselves from eternal death by simply, believing.

            But look at us right now. Here we are having discussion about this. God wrote the law, it's there like it or not. He gave the consequence, like it or not. And yet even knowing this, there are those who would rather ignore the law and face the consequence. To the christian and of course to God, this is really ridiculous, when it is all so very avoidable.


            It is really rather odd to Him I am sure, that some people have chosen not to believe in Him, and do in fact sin. But that sadly is the case for Him and the non-believer.

      3. Valerie F profile image59
        Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        And it is the job of a loving parent to do that.

        But there is more to it then that. What of the adult child who chooses to estrange him- or herself from the parents, as we all have done from God at some point or another? Would a loving God drag said child back home against his or her will and force said child to abide by the rules or try to keep the channels of communication open so that the child may freely choose to return to the family?

        1. Fairbear profile image61
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          To answer your question: perhaps not. Perhaps the loving God would indeed allow the child to do what it pleases. But the loving God would not send the Child to Hell when it's life was over. Only an evil God would do that.

          1. atomswifey profile image68
            atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Evil? or Just?
            Again as I pointed out earlier:
            It is not with evil intent one gets punished for crimes, it is justice.
            You say what you say because you are for lack of a better word, ignorant of the laws of God and how He imposes justice for the breaking of them.

            You wrote earlier that you thought it was justified for Saddam to be executed for his crimes. You also said, that if a judge were to sentence a traffic violator to death he would be wrong or not justified in that action.
            And you would be right accroding to mans laws.
            But,
            When concerning God and His laws:
            Every sin is just as bad as any other!
            There are no "degrees" of sin.

            To God, you and I are just as guilty in other words, as Saddam is/was. The only difference which sets us a part from that is forgiveness through acceptance and belief in Him.

            Its very simple, God is righteous. He doesn't need or neither is he required to be justified in His actions. In that righteousness sets his kingdom, which in itself is pure. In order for us as unclean, sinners or "criminals", those guilty of breaking Gods laws, to enter in is through a pardon for our sin. A cleansing of that sin, washed off of us.

            Otherwise, if not "pardoned" we are guilty and must suffer the consequences. that is not evil, it is just.

            You equated our founders and writers of the law as to having hearts and thats why or how they chose the consequences for crimes. But their hearts and or love had nothing to do with that, it was applying justice that they came to their conclusions.

            To God, the obvious conclusion He came to was to make a punishment so severe that people would want to, regardless of how very good sin feels to them, would choose to accept Christ and not suffer that consequence.

            God said "Once the son has set you free, you are free indeed." God sees you then upon acceptance of Christ as being, not guilty, not dirty with sin, but clean and renewed, blameless and spotless. He does then see you as pure.

        2. Valerie F profile image59
          Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          My first response to your questions on this thread.

          1. Fairbear profile image61
            Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I've already read that. You're just trying to avoid my most recent post. It's obvious! This is getting ridiculous. What is your point in bringing this old post back up? You're just doing whatever you can to sidestep the real issue. Come on. What do you say to my last post?!

  3. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    I know that when I have answered to a judge for an apparent offense (great or small) and I was found guilty, I received a sentence and I found no fault with the judge. Nor did I blame him for my actions.

    I do not have any problem with being corrected for my errors.

    If we are not corrected by the judge, our parents, our friends, our supervisor, then we know they do not give a rip about us.

    Correction for lawless behavior is everywhere.
    You can have rules or you can have anarchy.
    Why? Because people do not naturally correct themselves.

    I know that when I have answered to a judge for an apparent offense (great or small) and I was found guilty, I received a sentence and I found no fault with the judge. Nor did I blame him for my actions.

    I do not have any problem with being corrected for my errors. In fact, I respect the judge, if he gives me to easy of a sentence, I might just figure that it was worth it and do it again.

    If we are not corrected by the judge, our parents, our supervisor, then we know they do not give a rip about us. (repeated on purpose)

    "Some" people stop doing wrong when the pain is greater than the pleasure.

    Some never stop at all and are just incorrigible!!!

    Incorrigibility leads to being annihilated.

    1. Fairbear profile image61
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Again, this thread is not about fault. It is about who does the punishing. I think the Christian God is evil for sending people to Hell. Would you question the judge if he sentenced you to death for a traffic violation? Would you think him unfair and evil? Of course you would. But thanks to America, that kind of thing probably wouldn't happen to you. Why? Because the founders of America had a heart. In that aspect, they were good people.

      Oh, and you can't call Hell correction. That is an inadequate label. Hell doesn't correct anything. All it does is eliminate and deter. Correction is only the case when the criminal is set free after a serving a sentence to live a more "correct" life than before. This is in contrast to capitol punishment, which is not correction because the criminal will be allowed to "correct" their behavior. Capitol punishment, as well as Hell, only serves as to eliminate offenders and deter would-be offenders from committing crimes.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The same question still stands as it always did.
        Do you chose life and live? Do you chose a curse and die?
        What will you plant in your garden?
        We have correction for those who can be corrected.
        We have annihilation for those who cannot be corrected.

  4. atomswifey profile image68
    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago

    "Some" people stop doing wrong when the pain is greater than the pleasure.


    How true and profound!

  5. Rebecca E. profile image86
    Rebecca E.posted 7 years ago

    This of course means that while we have free will to decide what we do is wrong or right ( and we do) we know what teh concequences are.

    I think that is the simplest answer to it all.  IF the concequence is hell, that is the concequence, and we knew about it all along.

  6. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    I will never send my child to Aunty !  lol I will never punish my child, because I love him. I will give advice and then ,free will. If he still wants to behave bad?...In the end, experience will show him the right path. I will never, never create a Hell for my child!...Now.If I'm brainwashed....

    now if you're brainwashed... I don't have anything else to say

    Lady E, your post was so funny !  lol It made my day Tx !! smile

  7. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Heaven is kinda like my garden, and the lake of fire is kinda like my burn barrel. When I pull weeds out of my garden and cast them into the barrel of fire, because they are choking the tomatoes. I'm not hating the weeds nor am I punishing them. I don't think that the weeks are burning for ever even though the barrel is always there.

    1. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well written!

  8. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Do you give the child advice for punching you in the face?

    Advice for kicking your mate?

    Advice for buring your house down?

    Advice for stabbing the dog?

  9. atomswifey profile image68
    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago

    "Correction is only the case when the criminal is set free after a serving a sentence to live a more "correct" life than before."

    Our very time here on this earth is made, created and designed with that in mind.

    We are free here to choose to live that "corrected" life or not. God already has corrected and does correct us in that, He gave the Bible which has the law written in it. We get corrected through our ability to punish ourselves when we sin. That is in this life.

    To go on from this life into the next is our reward for living that "corrected" life here.

    All have sinned, all are guilty and all have already been corrected through the curses passed down from the garden. Now it's time to stop and do the right thing.

    Example:
    You can grab your child from running into traffic and spank their bottoms for it. You can instruct them as to the dangers of it. But if your child chooses to disobey you over and over again and continues this bad behavior eventually...SPLAT! sorry to be so blunt but you get my point. lol

    The time for correction, instruction and the like, we are living it right now.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      So - let me get this straight in my head.  You already know that the child is going to get splattered, and you know it will disobey you and spend 57 years in agony in a wheelchair being fed through a tube. You made sure that the human body will get splattered - and you have made sure that the car driver will be there to splatter the child.

      And you call this love?

      Sorry to be so blunt, but your irrational beliefs are pretty pathetic. And your imaginary super being is the stuff of nightmares.

      I suggest therapy. And plenty of it - soon.

      1. atomswifey profile image68
        atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So let me get this straight:

        Your perception of how God should be if he does exist is that of a being who created mindless machines unable to make decisions on their own right? I mean that is what in fact you are saying.

        In your description there you were implying that God should have in knowing what was to happen, not created us at all or if when designing us should have omitted free will. That in your words, he is not loving because bad things happen, he knew it would happen, and created us anyway so...He was wrong.

        please.

        I think even you with having that brain GOD gave you, can atleast be appreciative for having a life and the choices in it, regardless of the negatives.

        Let me put this to you another way:
        I have a friend, who got pregnant with a child with down syndrome. Her and her husband chose to go through with the pregnancy and have that baby.
        Were they aware of the risks? Yes.
        Were they aware of the problems to come? Yes.
        Were they knowledgable to the fact that their child would not be growing up in a world let's say, "normally" Yes.
        Were they aware and knowing of the complications and or hurts that child may suffer? Yes.
        And yet, they chose to have the baby anyway, why?
        Because they loved the baby regardless. And just because they knew of the above mentioned negatives affects on them and their child, well in advance, gave them no reason to choose otherwise.

        But too, you imply there that because God knew, that lets say, a person like Hitler would come from his creation, he should have not made anyone and that is just ridiculous.

  10. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    @...fairbear
    You say you do not believe in "the God of the Christians"
    but you do believe in God.
    so what does your God do with incorrigible people?
    I do not refer to myself as a "Christian"
    I take no such label.

    1. Fairbear profile image61
      Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes I know God. And he lets incorrigible people suffer while they live in their incorrigibility. The lifestyle is bad enough. Then when they die they go to the same place everyone goes. People's lives in no way determine their eternal destination.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Not logical at all.
        People who are incorrigible do not belong in the same house with those who are correctable, they are kept "outside" even right here on earth and the choices you make determine your place. You chose life or death. Not someone does it for you.

        1. Fairbear profile image61
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The thing is, to God these people you describe as incorrigible are just like everyone else. It's only you (mankind) who sees the differences among people based on their beliefs, actions, and thoughts. God sees no difference. Every person is equal in God's eyes whether they are a serial killer or Mother Theresa. They are all precious souls who deserve relief from the pain of life.

          1. Shaul Stein profile image61
            Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Annihilation is relief for them and everyone that knows them.
            That is why it is call "INCORRIGIBLE"...they want no relief !!!

      2. atomswifey profile image68
        atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        And you're willing to gamble on that then? With your soul, I mean.
        I mean, ok lets say you are right, fine you die, I die everyone eventually dies and according to you, we all do go on to God but being completely unconcerned with how we have lived here, allows for us to dwell with Him.
        Boy, wouldn't that be just great? I mean, think of it, no accountability, no responsibility. I mean why would have to be good at all? Why not just be another Saddam Hussein! yeah, great place to be don't ya think? To spend an eternity with people like Saddam Hussein and Hitler, oh yeah, I want to spend all of eternity with those two!

        But I digress,

        But what is it I ask you, will come to you, if you are wrong? I mean, what happens then? So you would rather live in this world, which is temporary, (only if you're lucky might you live say 100 years), but you would rather ignore Gods laws. So then, If you, who now knows beyond any shadow of any doubt since you have obviously read all of our words here,(no excuse there), as to what the consequences of that are, would you choose to continue to disbelieve?

        To christians:
        See and even here we see that even when facing the possibility of an eternity in hell they are still stubborn in their defiance of God.

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          you know what's wrong with you people ? that you talk about God as if he has a face ,body ,arms ,legs... and souls likewise. Well, I don't think so !! You can't see god face to face, when you die, because you wouldn't have one. God can't speak to you because he hasn't got a mouth. Don't be so naive!! Wake up !! Can't you see that Death is another situation??!!! It Doesn't involve Life as we know it .  Enough with Fairy Tales !!  Grow up !! Or growing up is too scary for you???!!!!

          1. atomswifey profile image68
            atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            LOL and you know all of this because???? I take it that you assert these things having knowledge as to all that is in the entire universe and beyond right?

            Oh but you must.
            In order to make that sort of "absolute" statement that you did you have to.

            My point is this,
            I could say "absolutely",
            There are no frogs in Brazil.
            That is what's called an absolute statement.
            I absolutely affirmed that there are no frogs in Brazil.

            But to make such a claim I would have had to,
            1. been to brazil and
            2. searched every single solitary inch of Brazil for frogs
            3. searched every home and building in Brazil (in case someone had one in an aquarium etc.) and finally,
            3. found none

            So given we come to that, then I should assume that you to have asserted so absolutely as you did that God does not have a body, soul, eyes, ears, a mouth, etc. that you are an authority on the universe, you have scavenged the  inner most and outer most parts of it, every inch and have concluded that God is not there, right? and if He is there, he doesn't look anything like us, even though you have not seen Him to know either way?

            Ok.

            1. tantrum profile image61
              tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              you said :

              So given we come to that, then I should assume that you to have asserted so absolutely as you did that God does not have a body, soul, eyes, ears, a mouth, etc. that you are an authority on the universe, you have scavenged the  inner most and outer most parts of it, every inch and have concluded that God is not there, right? and if He is there, he doesn't look anything like us, even though you have not seen Him to know either way?

              Ok.

              something like it. It's called 'common sense'. something maybe you don't know as you're above 'common people'!! lol

              1. atomswifey profile image68
                atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                But a sense common or not does not prove what you asserted nor does your common sense make you an authority of knowing all things in the universe or beyond, therefor you, not being an authority, never having scavenged the universe for God or His likeness/image cannot assert your claims.

                Common sense should then tell you, that you just, do not know or are unsure either way.

                1. tantrum profile image61
                  tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  You're the one that thinks is an authority in the matter !! lol i never said i was. You people are tooo much. It's tooo hilarious !

                  1. atomswifey profile image68
                    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    No I said in order for you to make such an absolute statement that you did, you would have to be an authority.
                    And I, have a belief, I do not claim to be an authority on His existance or what He looks like.

                    And thanks for the point smile

            2. BJC profile image68
              BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Tantrum,

              so how do you propose the earth all that is in it came about?  Can you tell me what came first, the chicken or the egg?

        2. Fairbear profile image61
          Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You must have missed it when I said I know God. You see, the things I have said about Him are true, and the things you have said about Him are false. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts. I'm sorry you can't see that. You probably never will. But that's ok 'cause you can't help it and God isn't so evil that He's going to make you burn for it.

          1. atomswifey profile image68
            atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Oh so, you believe in God, just not hell. I get that, ok. But then, where do you get your knowledge of God from? The Bible? Because I am confident if you read more it does tell of that consequence/punishment.

            I get MY facts from His word (the Bible), in His word, God clearly states that those who do not believe or do not accept Christ will end up there.

            What you have done, in my opinion is create your "Burger King, have it your way" style of God.(Got that from you BJC! smile) You don't like the thought of their being a hell because you feel it makes God appear "evil" to send people there. So you construct or otherwise order God and his righteousness up to "fit" into what makes you most comfortable or easier for you to digest.

            And again here is another one trying to make an "absolute" statement. You said, You are right, and I am wrong. But then you must know this because you,,well must have died, and then seeing that you and everyone else were in the same place and that God was not sending anyone there... Please.

            Just admit you do not know. That would much better than asserting that you do, that I am wrong which is also saying the Bible is wrong.

            1. Fairbear profile image61
              Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              If I had to die in order to know what I know, then you also would have to die to know what you say you know. But I guess that doesn't apply to you because you have a book that tells you all the answers.

              You got it wrong. I don't believe in God, I said that I know God. There's a difference. I know Him because He has entered my life and He accompanies me at all times, speaking to me and bringing me fulfillment. I don't need to believe in what is right in front of me every day. It is understandable that you don't think I know Him, but that doesn't change the facts.

              1. atomswifey profile image68
                atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                First, No I would not have to die to say what I have said because I have not asserted unlike you in an absolute satement that you are wrong or that I am right. I said I believe this to be true etc.
                You said very absolutely that I was wrong about God. Having never died and had to face the consequence you cannot be sure that I am wrong.
                Second,
                A book? His Book. If you know Him as well as you claim, you should know He authored a book.
                Ans yes, in it I have all the answers I need. Yet I too much like you claim, feel him in every fiber of my being.

  11. atomswifey profile image68
    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago

    I think it important to note here as well that we speak of God "sending" people to Hell, what we are really saying is that God physically puts them there which is true. He is the one to "physically" put them there. But really whether or not you will be put there is a choice.

    God designed it that way. My point is this:
    All who are reading this are hearing of the option they have to believe in God and keep to His commandments, thus avoiding hell. The same is true for those reading, if they choose not to believe nor keep His commandments and are in fact consequently, sent there.

    So it is the person's choice in the matter whether or not they will go or not.
    God does not just pick certain people and indiscriminately send them there at will or whim.

    People have a concious decision to make. Do or I or don't I, not will He or won't He. God already made that very clear that if you do, he won't and if don't He will. And then you might say, "but I would not ever choose nor do I think anyone else would choose to burn in hell!" Really? If that were true none of us would be in here having this discussion.

    The choice is very clear:
    acceptance and belief: Life/Heaven
    disobediance and doubt: Death/Hell

  12. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Not real sure The Creator is interested in saving you from your own bent on destroying yourself.
    He often steps aside and let's you have at it.

    It's like how you deal with an alcoholic. You tell them.....
    "When you are done with the destroying of yourself, your family and your friends.
    I will be right over here."

    Eventually the pain “from” the booze gets to be greater than the pleasure “in” the booze.

    For some alcoholics though, they hit bottom again and again and again.....until they fall through the bottom and never recover from destruction.
    Some let nothing stop them from utter ruin.

    This is INCORRIGIBILITY !!!

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So God is a Sadist. This is getting worse !  _yikes

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Nope! He says He gets no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
        Men get pleasure in killing the innocent however.

  13. atomswifey profile image68
    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago

    God thought about all He had created prior to man. And it was good.
    But rather than creating beings like he had already done with the mindset, or I use this loosely "programmed" to love Him, serve Him, etc. He decided to create man in His own image.

    Man was to be able to think and reason for himself. Be in charge of himself as well the land God put him in. He created woman as companionship for man as well, a help mate if you will.

    The two grew in the garden both physically and mentally. Then something happened... Given the choice, they chose to rebel against God to disobey Him. Thus creating and bringing into this life, sin.
    Did God know this would happen? yes. Did he know this would inevitably bring about man in the future going to hell? yes.
    So why did He allow it?
    Because the first part of this post answers those questions.

    Regardless of the consequences God wanted man to have the opportunity to make a decision to do right or wrong. To accept Him and serve Him or not. That, to God was far more important than the outcome of some of them going to hell.

    He loves ALL. We know this because he sacrificed his own son in the most horrible of ways to make a way so that none of His people would have to face that punishment. Unfortunately though, because of their free will, much like Adam, there are those whom even after this great sacrifice do not believe, will not serve etc.

    Again, did God know in advance this would happen? Yes. But the sacrifice, even for one was worth it. Just like in one post I read about a garden.
    You plant a garden. You are fully aware of weeds and the destructive power they have. And although you might be very well sacrificing a few tomatoes you plant the garden anyway. The fruits and veggies you enjoy from your creation, are well worth the risk.

  14. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 7 years ago

    ROFLMAO

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Oh yes. big_smile

      @ atom - I see what you mean now. Interesting.

      Call me a bad father if you will, but - I prefer to ensure that none of my children get "splattered." And I take the time to carefully introduce them to minor splatterings as they grow. That way they learn that they will get splattered - and it is not a good thing.

      I have found that shouting at them not to do something or they will get splattered does not work very well. It invariable ends up in them testing to see if they do indeed get splattered.

      But - I like your god's approach. It certainly weeds out the dross pretty quickly. Almost like evolution. wink

      I know - I am a bad father - making sure that there is no splatterings. Oh well - I guess that means I will burn in hell for all eternity.

      1. atomswifey profile image68
        atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        what? or excuse me, huh??

        When did God "shout" anything? And um, ok, so you assert that you are a good father because you,
        A)"ensure" their safety? And how do you do that exactly? Because remember if you were, God,..oh boy help us all, but if you were, and you had the ability to let's say control the actions of everyone and everything to ensure that sort of safety, this would mean imposing that onto your own child as well. Controlling every aspect of their lives, minds and bodies etc. Is that what you would want for them or yourself?

        But I go on to finish my thought...

        B) You carefully introduce them to "minor splatterings" so that they will "learn that they can get splattered"? God does the same. I think having problems, minor splatterings here on earth is carefully introducing us to pain/suffering. And that if you picture a hell that He warns of, in which that pain and suffering is eternal, you might then consider that to be not such as you put it, a good thing. Thus as you have concluded with your own children, they would avoid the consequence.

        And in conclusion, whether you are or not a bad father does not dictate your eternity anywhere.

  15. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    @ tantrum
    I replied to your other post and you have no answers?
    Well OK.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not giving you answers all the time, kid ! I can't be bothered! Think whatever you want. Be my guest.  This is my last reply to you. Suit yourself , kid !! big_smile

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Hummmm....OK
        Last time I checked you must have posted about 24 times "hey!!! why don't YOU answer ME...I asked YOU a question and I always answer YOUR questions....guess you don't have one eh? lol lol lol !!!"

        That is what you do Tantrum!

        I am not your kid.
        I have raised 3 and they are all out of the house and probably as old as you.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Now I am all confused. You act like a child, so - you mean you are not a child?

          Are you even old enough to have an account here? Is that why the dead dog guy went?

          You know you need to be over 18 right, kid?

  16. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Here is a scenario:

    You are born “like everyone else” and you grow up being taught just plain old right from wrong. (do not steal, lie, cheat, swindle etc.)
    When you come of age (whatever that age might be, let's use 13-18) you start to do what you “know to be wrong” and you steal a boy's bike and take it for a joy ride and ruin it and then toss it off a cliff. Then you are caught because people and cameras saw you do it. You go before the judge and are reproved, made to work to earn money and buy the boy a new bike. It takes you 3 months to make enough money to do that. So the boy is without a bike for 3 months. You must also clean it for him once a week for 3 months.

    You get bitter about all of this and say “I was just having fun riding the bike” or some other silly excuse.

    So then you forget about the pain of it all and remember the fun you had and this time you steal a motorcycle. Same thing happens, you wreck and total the motorcycle. Taken to the judge and are ordered to  make the money to buy another motorcycle and it takes you a year so they are without for that long. You again must clean it for a year.

    But !!!~ you still find an extreme “rush” in stealing and the fun of it all and continue to advance in stealing and getting caught, but are taken before the judge (same judge) for the 5th time now for stealing and are put in jail because you are older now and the other corrective measures did not work with you because you loved the pleasure more than the pain. Sort of like the alcoholic.

    You get out and are now 25 years old and resent what “has been done to YOU” because you were “just having fun and nobody got injured” (well at least physically). So you can't get a job because of your record, you are homeless with no money so you have to steal to eat. You sell some food to other homeless people who happen to have money made by begging and then you buy drugs with it and start selling them for profit and then you are caught after a long time doing this and your sale is a large enough quantity to send you away for a long time. Again, same judge, this time he reads your whole record and tells you he will make you a deal. 1,000 hours of community service and you can stay at “the farm” (like Disney-Jail) because you have no home as you have spent your drug selling profits on more “just having fun.” Judge tells you when you finish they will set you up with a job and you can stay on the farm until you make enough money to be on your own. You thank him profusely and off you go.

    You start your community service but hate it because you feel like it's slave labor and working for free and say piss on all of this bull whammy and you run away from the farm.

    You are caught and taken to the same judge and he tells you he tried to cut you some slack and not send you to prison but you rebelled again and so off you go to prison for the original 5 year sentence that you could have avoided.

    So you do your time and get out and continue where you left off but this time you pick a old ladies house to rob and you know she is home because you watched her drive up. You wait until she goes to sleep. She surprises you during the act and you fight with her and kill her.

    You are taken before the same judge who finds you guilty of murdering someone while committing a felony because you were armed and with your previous record sentences you to death (annihilation) and away you go. 5 years later you are executed.

    Question for you.
    How do you find the judge to be "evil" ?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Is this judge the same guy who made sure the child was sexually abused by the priest that taught him right from wrong?

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No.

        Judges do not run about the city controlling people.

        A sad answer from you too. sad

        1. BJC profile image68
          BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No, God clearly provides instruction for how to live.  Again, it's people who choose to do the things they do.  For those who believe the Bible, it clearly states that evil/satan/devil is the god of this world thanks to Adam and Eve.

          The priests are not Godly men but are controlled by their own lust.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Really - He does? Then why the disagreement between you? LOLOLOL

            What a pathetic belief system you have. I prefer to teach by example rather than threats. Oh well - I am sure your invisible super being knows best, and threats are better.

            1. atomswifey profile image68
              atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              what? God does not teach through example?? first I have ever heard of that.
              Ever read the Bible?
              It starts out showing where we went wrong and gives thousands of examples of people who had consequences for their actions.

              But I suppose its better your way,
              you go out and get splattered by a car Mark to show your kids what happens when you do! lol
              please

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                What a very christian response.

                How very loving of you..........

                1. atomswifey profile image68
                  atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  lol
                  you said Mark not I
                  You prefer to teach everything through example.

                  I was simply demonstrating how absurd that is. You cannot possibly teach everything to everyone by example.

                  If you did, you yourself would be a liar, a thief, a murderer and maybe even splatted under the wheels of someones car.

            2. BJC profile image68
              BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Glad to make you laugh!  Next time you breathe, think of how it happens.  To think it started due a big bang takes far more faith. 

              God, does not provide His rules, if you will, out of promoting fear within us, but out of protection for us.  What do parents tell their child about running in the road, "oh, Johnny, don't go in the road, it's not good for you."  It's more like, "don't go in the road or you will be run over by a vehicle." 

              But, hey, if people choose not to belive, it's their choice.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Demonstrating your ignorance of the process of transferring oxygen to your bloodstream is not really impressing me.

                "Don't go out into the road Johnny because I know you are going to be squashed and spend the rest of your life in wheelchair. I made sure the truck would be there, and neglected to teach you properly, but ......... Hey - I didn't make the rules of physics."

                It is all your fault for not listening to the moron with no education.

                1. BJC profile image68
                  BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry that you're angry.  Your twisting of my response is futile.  Most parents do tell their children why they are not to run in the road, because they will get run over.  Actually, science and the Bible go hand in hand, hut that's for another discussion or a hub.

                  1. BJC profile image68
                    BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Er, who would be the moron with no education???

                  2. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I am sorry that you are so upset at reality that you need to threaten people. I understand - life can be really scary sometime. If it makes you feel better - you go ahead and threaten your children with eternal pain for not listening to what you say.

                    Oh - I mean what god tells you to say. wink Same thing.

                    Sure science goes hand in hand. Explain the dinosaurs please.

            3. BJC profile image68
              BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              There is no disagreement, just your perception.

    2. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Very well put!
      I love the "Disney-Jail" thing! LOL

  17. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Hey Mark !
    If I create something good and something evil.
    And I create something that is only life.

    Which one do you pick?
    Today, right now?

    And you have to make this choice every single day.

    1. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Wow!
      Very good
      very very good

    2. Shaul Stein profile image61
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      @ Mark Knowles big_smile



      No answer Mark ?

  18. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Mark:

    Neither are you old enough to call me "kid"

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Kid - you sure you are old enough to have an account here?

  19. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Hey Mark !

    If I create something good and something evil.

    And I create something that is only life.

    Which one do you pick?

    Today, right now?

    And you have to make this choice every single day.

  20. sparksdaniel2000 profile image80
    sparksdaniel2000posted 7 years ago

    i'd rather be sent to hell by the guy running the show, and not some underboss or supervisor or some other idiot...I want the call to come from the Almighty Himself.

    1. BJC profile image68
      BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Amen to that comment!!

  21. atomswifey profile image68
    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago

    “…I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith.’

    For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
    who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them. For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made,
    even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

    Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools

    and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man…
    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness…For they changed the truth of God into a lie…they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind” (Romans 1:16-28).

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      More bible babble !!
      It seems you'll never find a snsible answer to this

      you know what's wrong with you people ? that you talk about God as if he has a face ,body ,arms ,legs... and souls likewise. Well, I don't think so !! You can't see god face to face, when you die, because you wouldn't have one. God can't speak to you because he hasn't got a mouth. Don't be so naive!! Wake up !! Can't you see that Death is another situation??!!! It Doesn't involve Life as we know it .  Enough with Fairy Tales !!  Grow up !! Or growing up is too scary for you???!!!!

      big_smile

  22. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    One explanation regarding the flood and dinosaurs is they were extinct before the flood and therefore not on the ark.

    Job was written before Genesis and so that the order the books are put together in are by no means chronological.

    Personally I do believe they lived, not a big deal how they died, many, many, many species have come and gone, either by natural causes or killed off by mankind for money and sport.

    None of this is on topic, so let's not get side tracked.

  23. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago

    So, let me see if I understand hell correctly.  To keep from going there I simply ignore what my senses tell me, deny scientific facts, quote scripture, and look down on non believers and I can be just like you guys, right?

    1. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      First, to keep from going there you need only do one thing: Believe in Christ as your saviour.

      If that means you ignore what your "senses" tell you, then I would have to say, yes.

      As to denying scientific facts: Science has yet to disprove the existance of God nor prove the theory of evolution. Just because there are some things which do evolve does mean that all creation started as a result of it.

      Next, quoting scripture will not save you, even the devil knows scripture

      and finally,
      we do not "look down" on non-believers. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Romans 3:23 and that includes us.

      To me a non-believer is just someone who like myself at one time, has not come to the knowledge or acceptance of Christ. that to me is sad. I feel it very sad that they choose to disbelieve in the God that created them. I feel a sadness too because I know that if they are caught up early or late in death without having that belief or acceptance what it is that they will face. That to me is very sad.

      1. BJC profile image68
        BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        atomswifey is correct.  The problem is that too many Christians have behaved in an immoral or stupid way, thus making all Christians look the same.  Actually, most of us are pretty well educated and have enough sense to realize it isn't about us.


        I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what came first, the chicken or the egg?

    2. Shaul Stein profile image61
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hey fairbear smile

  24. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    The Creator created mankind in His own image and likeness and the image and likeness is what it is, just that.
    It can speak, it can hear, it can move, it can think, it can see, it can touch, it can smell, it has these and many more abilities.

    The Creator is able to do this and more. He need not be visible to do this.
    No big deal.

    Things that are invisible make sounds.
    Wind.

    1. 60
      badcompany99posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You can see the wind you fool !

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        What does the wind look like?

        I have a spirit that cannot be seen too.
        Man is not just a visible being.
        The Creator being invisible can make things that are visible that express His invisible attributes much like an artist or musicain creates what was not visible before.

        Angels cannot be seen either, until they manifest themselves.

        No big deal.

      2. BJC profile image68
        BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, you can't see the wind. What you see are the effects of the wind.

      3. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Drat, you beat me to it!

  25. Make  Money profile image71
    Make Moneyposted 7 years ago

    Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

    You are wrong again Fairbear.

    I'll just reply with a post from your last thread.

  26. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    @bcj
    None. this is not about chickens !!  Is about 'common sense'. something maybe you don't know as you're above 'common people'!!

    1. BJC profile image68
      BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      BJC, actually.  However, if you have it all together and I apparently don't, then please enlighten me.

      1. BJC profile image68
        BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Let's please refrain from insulting people as "fools".  You're better than that.

      2. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not here to enlighten you.  It would take much of my time and I'm no preacher. just a 'common person' with 'common sense'

        1. BJC profile image68
          BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Nice to meet you.  Glad you're not a preacher that would be scary smile

          1. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              You bet !! lol  nice to meet you too ! smile

  27. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Well, seeing how every creature was created and then multiplied.
    The chicken came first, then had eggs.

  28. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    @ bcj said :I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what came first, the chicken or the egg?


    Thi is not the 'cooking forum '
    That's the only reply you will get for such a 'funny' question  big_smile

    1. BJC profile image68
      BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Ya know, I do love to cook.........  got a recipe to type after I come back from running, BUT, before that...........

      if we can't make an intellignet decision about what came firsr, the chicken or the egg, then how do we propose there is no God.

    2. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      God creates earth
      God creates chicken
      God creates man
      Man creates KFC
      God creates hell
      man goes to hell
      Chickens rule the earth!

      LOL sorry coudn't resist smile

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol A point 4 u in this 1 !! lol

        1. BJC profile image68
          BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Now, that is funny!!  Go Girl smile

  29. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    Real simple:
    I say, here is a fire Bobby, do NOT TOUCH THE FIRE or you will get burnt!!!...
    Bobby touches fire, gets burnt !
    Bobby likes the fire and plays with it again !!
    Bobby one day starts a fire and kills himself !!!

    Not my fault at all.

    Cop says. Here is the speed limit, do not go over it or you will get a ticket. I go over it and get said ticket. Not the cops fault.

    Many bleeding hearts will disagree.

    1. BJC profile image68
      BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Great example.  But, ya know, some people choose not to believe and that is their choice.

  30. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Saying your wrong is saying the bible is wrong? That's a screamer! Of course you're wrong then. smile
    Funny to see you fighting over who is right about a sky fairy.

    "My delusion is better than yours"

    1. BJC profile image68
      BJCposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Baby, no-one is fighting.  Sorry, if you read something incorrect it was likely a typo............

    2. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah just come in earnest and twist the meaning of that. The Bible clearly speaks of hell, and the consequence of people being sent there, that is where I draw my belief of it from. When she said that I was wrong in believing in its existance, or that God sends people there, she was then saying the Bible to be wrong in that sense as well.

  31. purpleveil profile image83
    purpleveilposted 7 years ago

    One thing Everyone seems to forget is that God created the world, ad heaven, and everything we have is not ours, but His. I always believed that hell is just not being allowed to go to heaven where all the good stuff is, but it is God's heaven. We do not own it, and we have no right to it at all. Our life is a gift, a priveledge, not a right. Do you not feel that you should be allowed to decide who comes into your house? Do you not decide what behaviors are acceptable for your guests, or do you let just any old body into your house? If you can do that why can't God? You have the free will to do what you want, but you also have to take responsibility for what you do. Heaven is God's house, and if you want in, you know what you have to do. And even if He is the one says no, what right do you have to be angry about that?

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      And who created god again?

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

             I think that maybe this life is suposed to teaches us how to like it when we get there. It's goina get some getin used to to like it! I gotta get used to gettin along without dancing girls and a pool table in heaven unless there are sume in THA back room.
             Seriously though, most Christians that I know including my self may not like it up there because of our addictions, they say that there are no fixes up there. The spirit of God is the only fix, wouldn't that be nice????

  32. 60
    kaybumposted 7 years ago

    God is loving and he cares for everyone,but our ways of life is what he does not want.God uses so many things to rebuke us has his children but he does not want anybody to go to hell that is why he came into the world to die for our sins.

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I see! And are these the words of your "loving" god?

      "You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them.  For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their father's wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation"      (Exodus 20:4-5 NAB)
      What a totally neurotic statement!

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Well man, you can go ahead and carve idols for yourself in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth and then bow down and worship them if you wish.

        Have the entire family join you too, right in the front yard !!!

        1. atomswifey profile image68
          atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          LOL!
          you so funny
          I can just picture that. But really I think God was only right to say that. Call me whatever but I do.
          I just fail to see where in that, it makes Him any less loving. So He punishes down to the third and fourth generations people who hate Him and worship other gods. Which actually, He doesn't as Christ broke all those generational curses, but how does that serve as a sign of his lack of love for them?
          He could have just "smote" them! LOL

  33. EdG. profile image61
    EdG.posted 7 years ago

    These forums always take things too far, the simple fact is that (if we assume that Christianity is true) God sends people to hell. He's judge, jury, and executioner. He puts the sinners and heretics down there himself and he creates humans who he sees in the future as residents of Hell (he is all-knowing remember).

    Furthermore, if you believe this is a just punishment then you are a sick individual. How can crimes on earth which are finite in their nature and damage be punished with an infinite consequence? It literally doesn't add up!

    1. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You like some others are basing this punishment according to your beliefs that God if He does exist should judge according to the degree of sin. You think it not just of Him to damn people to hell for an eternity for what YOU think to be minor infractions on earth or infractions which you construed to be finite in nature/damage.

      But again you are not seeing that God does not view sin as minor or finite. The sins of man are carried with him as long as they remain ON him. Only when we are "washed clean" through the acceptance and belief in Christ are those sins removed.
      So there you can see where your "finite" crimes are not so finite afterall. And as far as the "damage" they cause: I think sin has done quite a lot of damage, yes even enough to warrant an eternal punishment.
      Too,
      He does not distinguish one sin from another as we do with mans laws. To God, You are just as guilty as I or anyone else, and I do mean, ANYONE else is. Really in that sense, everyone who came after Adam and including Adam should go to hell. But God loving us so much, offered forgiveness and redemption so that the consequence of hell does not have to become a reality for anyone. He offered His son as a sacrifice for mans sins. Acceptance of Him washes the sinner clean. He therefor now is clean and reborn, not guilty, pure.

      But man still to this day refuses to believe and remains defiant of Gods laws. So, he remains guilty. The thought to some of having to submit to God, to turn away from the sins of the flesh are too much to ask,(he or she thinks) and so, regardless of the consequences to that way of living, chooses to sin/disbelieve and inevitably will if he/she dies in that sin, face that consequence.

      1. EdG. profile image61
        EdG.posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh I do find your ridiculous dogma ever so amusing. Still, it is a blight upon humanity and I would much rather forgo my amusement in favor of a world free of such asinine and petty beliefs. The fact is, "God" (i.e. religious humans claiming to speak for God) rules through fear. Hell is merely a fabricated instrument of terror to keep the coffers full and the masses obedient. The concept of natural sin is exactly the same since it also leads to Hell.

        The universe is a big place and if you're conceited enough to believe that the omnipotent creator of the universe personally judges individual organisms of your species on a single planet, that's fine. I really don't care. But if you are ok with the idea of any of your fellow humans being subjected to his torment then I have no respect for you whatsoever. I know that doesn't really matter to you but in the future ,just know that it would be appreciated if you would keep your childish scare tactics to yourself.

        1. mealdates profile image61
          mealdatesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          If an animal is sick, people go and visit a vet.
          If you're ill, you might go to see a doctor.
          If you have got emotional questions, who would you ask?
          If you were mentally ill who would you want to help?

  34. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    I both know Him and beleive in Him.
    Not because I learned it from a book either.
    Like I told you, He appeared to me.
    Not a problem. Cannot deny it.

  35. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    @ fairbear

    You said God is evil.
    Yet you never answered my post at the top of page 3 ???

  36. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    If you cannot see that is not less loving, then I can only assume you cannot read. smile

    1. Valerie F profile image59
      Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You did not read the part about God rewarding goodness up to the seventh generation.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image61
        Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        He knows it is there....he just leaves stuff like that out to find fault is all.

  37. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    earnest, i thought you for sure would reply here smile

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/20502

  38. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    So you can't think either? Poor sock puppet! lol

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol

  39. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    I think just fine.
    I think in this realm.
    I think outside of this realm.
    Outside of time. Space. Motion.

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      All I see is ninth rate thinking from a second class mind! smile
      Just like all the other religious sock puppets! lol

  40. Fairbear profile image61
    Fairbearposted 7 years ago

    Shaul Stein: In response to your question at the top of page three.

    I do not find the judge in your story to be evil.

    I will assume, due to the topic of this thread, that your story is supposed to be an allegory in which the judge is God and the recidivist criminal is mankind. Am I right?

    But I will respond to your story the same as I've responded to the many other stories I've heard that express the same point. Everyone else who has posted to this thread in defense of Christianity has used the same essential tactic that your story uses. Just like my original post describes, you are using a free will argument to try to take the edge off your God throwing people into the fires of Hell. But nothing you say can eradicate the facts. Your God sends people to Hell. It is His will to do so. And it is evil.

    If that judge in your story, after the criminal murdered the old woman, threw the criminal into a torture chamber that specialized in prolonging the lives of its subjects while administering the most heinous torture techniques imaginable. And if that torture chamber, by the judges orders, managed to keep the criminal alive for twenty more years, all the while torturing him without relief for even a second-- if the judge did all that to the criminal he would indeed be evil. But that's just my opinion. You might think that to be a fitting punishment for the criminal. However, the American government would call it cruel and unusual punishment, which is why such things do not go on here (legally).

    But even so, Hell is billions of times worse than that fabled twenty years of torture. Hell is never ending, and I don't feel the need to go into a description of Hell, as I'm sure you know the details. Now for the sake of this post, I'll go ahead and give a little. I'll say that people like this criminal, and people like Hitler and Saddam and Bundy and Manson, you know, really bad people, deserve eternity in Hell. I don't really believe that, but I'll give you that for the time being. Anyway, I'm not talking about those really bad people. They have obviously done things that deserve something. The people I'm talking about are ordinary, law-abiding citizens of their countries, who treat others with kindness, never hurt anyone, and do their best to be good people their entire lives, but happen to be Muslim, or Buddhist, or atheist, or Scientologist, or Jewish, etc. etc. etc. --anything but Christian.

    Do you get the picture of the kind of person I'm talking about? This isn't at all the character in your story.

    What I'm saying, what my heart cries out against your religion, what nothing will ever convince me against, is that a God who sends those people to Hell just for not believing in Jesus is evil evil evil. There is no way for you to cover that up, disguise it, put makeup on it, reason it away, or deny it.

    1. Shaul Stein profile image61
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hey, for perhaps the 10th time?

      I said people that cannot or will not be corrected are then annihilated and cease to exist!!!
      No need to torture them endlessly.
      So stop saying stuff I did not say.
      He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, understand?
      I never said the man in question gets sent to hell, I said he is annihilated totally and remembered  NO MORE.

      If we had 10 men running around ruthlessly murdering people, we would annihilate them all and for good reason. No torture needed !

      God will judge each one according to conscience. He is  righteous in judgment, not some stupid mindless torturous idiot.
      If you are worthy of annihilation, then so be it, you no longer are existing and blotted out as if you never were.
      You do not torture a cancer, you destroy it.

      You also seem to think I think like a typical believer do you?

      anyone want to read the post I made
      http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332264

      1. Fairbear profile image61
        Fairbearposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Well, this casts a whole new light on you, Shaul. Perhaps I failed to read it in a previous post. This is the first clear statement I've read from you that describes your beliefs as they differ from mainstream Christianity. So, you don't believe in eternal damnation in Hell. You simply believe that bad people are blotted out of existence. I'm sorry I didn't catch that before now. In that case, this thread isn't even directed at you.

        But in this new light I find it very peculiar that you have been arguing with me. That's the whole reason I have assumed that you believe in eternal damnation in Hell. You gave all the signs that you were defending the viewpoint that I am prosecuting. Now it it looks like you were only chiming in with your alternate definition of Hell and Punishment. Well, OK. Thanks for letting us know what you believe. I have no problem with that belief. Nothing evil about it.

        1. Shaul Stein profile image61
          Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Pretty sure that all throughout the scriptures exists a pattern of offering correction numerous times over and over,  and if it rejected, then the people reach the point of being incorrigible and are thus annihilated from existence. If, on the other hand correction is offered and they changed their minds, the pain was lifted and correction was in place. It was always a choice of the people. No place that I can recall are people endlessly tormented or tortured without purpose, they are either correctable or they are not. The word went out to all, not all responded. No favorites either, judgment fell upon Israel and anyone else who practiced lawless, total anarchy and idol worship that included setting their children upon Molech, a metal idol heated to about 1,000 degrees as you know. No need to keep such people alive at all, agreed?  Also people engaging is shrine temple prostitution both male and female. Also the worship of fertility goddesses etc. Not good stuff. Not for any people.

          Molech then and now. Interesting read no matter who you are. http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_molech.htm

          Children being offered to Molech
          http://www.whale.to/b/020105bgrove6.jpg


          Here are the posts I have made and mention correction and or annihilation in them throughout this thread so I have no idea how they could have been overlooked at all. Nothing has been hidden. I have not been arguing with you over "hell". I think you missed where I was coming from because your in the middle of an argument here in the thread. Read them again with the “new view” in mind and see if you get what I said a bit better. And the whole “thanks for letting us know what you believe.”......maybe if you read it without trying to pay attention to your own argument it would have been clear?

          http://hubpages.com/forum/post/331944

          http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332035 
          (mentioned here where I inserted comments inside yours)

          http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332060

          http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332264
          (one on the judge and  incorrigible man)

          I do believe we are accountable for our actions here on earth where we are often to be “found out” and then if we correct out behavior and make amends to the people we wronged, then our account is current. If we have “gotten away” with anything and or covered up wrong doing, we will answer for that to The Judge who misses nothing, not even a sparrow falling to the ground. smile

          Getting away with things is a mere illusion.

          1. Make  Money profile image71
            Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Like yourself Shaul, some communities no longer acknowledge the reality of an everlasting hell.  But it is still in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and the New.

            Judith 16:17 "Let all thy creatures serve thee: because thou hast spoken, and they were made: thou didst send forth thy spirit, and they were created, and there is no one that can resist thy voice."

            Isaias 33:14 "The sinners in Sion are afraid, trembling hath seized upon the hypocrites. Which of you can dwell with devouring fire? which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

            Isaias 66:24 "And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh."

            Jeremias 15:14 "And I will bring thy enemies out of a land, which thou knowest not: for a fire is kindled in my rage, it shall burn upon you."

            Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

            Matthew 25:41 "Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."

            Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

            Mark 9:47-48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. For every one shall be salted with fire: and every victim shall be salted with salt."

            Luke 3:17 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

            2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 "Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:"

            Jude 1:6-7 "And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire."

            Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name."

            Revelation 20:10 "And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

            The angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that "destruction" does not mean "annihilation," as some teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.

            Jesus Christ's first coming was to bring mercy, His second coming will bring judgment.

            Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell, they do it themselves.

            You are right Shaul, Jesus Christ did not come to start a new religion.  There is a seamless transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament.  "Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7) "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus: that we may receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." (Galatians 3:14)

    2. atomswifey profile image68
      atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Ok one more time:

      Man fell from grace thus bringing sin into the world.

      Every person from that point forward was "born into sin" They were covered in sin essentially.

      God is righteous as is his kingdom
      He detests sin, hates it

      God was willing to forgive man of his sins but it for man was a road very hard to travel. Back in the days of the Old Testament people sacrificed animals in a way to wash away their sins, namely lambs, as they were considered to be  "clean" and pure.

      But man still chose to be defiant and sin and lawlessness were abundant.

      God then decided that He would make a way for all mankind to recieve forgiveness and be washed clean. He wanted to reconcile Himself with man.

      Jesus was that sacrifice.

      Now you may think that most people are good, but by whose standards? Mans?
      God does not see man as good or right until he recieves that forgiveness that only comes from belief in His son.Once again up there you seperated the "good" people from people like Saddam, Manson etc. But it is like I said,

      There are no degrees of sin. Sin is sin. And ALL sin to God is detestable. All sin. The sin we are born into and the sin we carry with us until, we ask and believe. Only in that acceptance do we gain our freedom from the bondage of that sin.

      Now the Bible is clear that babies/children are free from accountability due to their age, they are not yet at the age of accountability (adult).

      Ok, so having said all that.
      God is righteous. He demands, yes demands that no sin may enter heaven. No sin, none. So in that, having been born into sin and guilty of sin, you are covered in sin. And no sin can enter into heaven.

      God was so serious about this, so very strict about this that He presented a punishment so severe that the thought of it would then deter people from willingly disbelieving, doubting or otherwise sinning.

      which of course has happened. However there are those like yourself who think He is evil for doing so etc. And have chosen even still to be defiant.

      Now again I go back to Jesus.
      He was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.
      When Jesus came to be even the pharisees,(those considered to be a holy majority and authority on the subject of God), rejected him. They much like you, could not wrap their minds around the fact that after years of sacrificing animals, and obeying the laws of God, that He was their messiah. Sent there to free them from their bondage in sin, they could not wrap their minds around the fact they needed to be free from that bondage since they were soooo good, such "good" people, such holy people.

      so Jesus was executed. He was tortured and hung on that cross and all of this was to secure a place in Heaven for people. To make a way for people to be forgiven to have a pardon.

      Now, you say it is evil for God to punish people with an eternity in hell for simply not believing in Jesus.
      But, if you do not believe in Jesus, you cannot recieve forgiveness and be washed clean.
      If you cannot be washed clean, you are not pure.
      If you are not pure,
      you cannot enter heaven.
      And where does God say you will go if not to heaven?
      hell.

      It is what it is. God said it, He designed it, He set the rules, made the laws, gave the consequences.
      Believe it or not, like it or not
      doesn't matter.

  41. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    That is a fare sized lump of good thinking in my view fairbear smile

  42. Valerie F profile image59
    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago

    What if Hell is not so much a deliberately inflicted punishment so much as the natural consequence of a lifetime of sin for which atonement was never made?

    If you swim at a public pool, you break the rules, end up in some kind of distress while swimming, and you refuse all rescue attempts, death or injury is a natural consequence. Are the people who operate the pool, make the rules, and, oh yes, hire properly qualified lifeguards evil if, despite their best efforts, someone dies as a result of breaking the rules?

    Are they evil for even building a swimming pool in the first place, knowing that some people will break the rules and might die as a natural result?

    John 3:16-17 refers to Jesus coming into the world to save people rather than to condemn.

  43. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    What is worth keeping will be kept.

    What is not will be utterly and totally annihilated.

    Just like you would if you had to pick what you wanted out of your house and the rest was left for the coming fire to destroy.

  44. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Yeh, watch out for this god guy, he is not just your regular homicidal maniac!

    "I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD.  "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die.  I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD.  "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship.  I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear.  For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars.  They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too.  So now I will destroy them!  And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do.  They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings."   (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

    Worship this? It is to laugh! lol

    1. Shaul Stein profile image61
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes that is The Creator, He created it and can destroy it and answers to NOBODY for it either. Doing evil gets you what you have coming.
      Do you even know what the worship of Molech was?

      Putting your children on a metal idol heated to over 1000 degrees!!!

      Annihilation works very efficiently Earnest.
      When one goes to war, annihilation is the best tactic, that way none of those people ever come back to make war again.

      Exodus 3:15
      י ה ו ה   is a man of war.  י ה ו ה  is His name.


      And your point is?

  45. Shaul Stein profile image61
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    God, Heaven, The Good News.

    Are NOT....."ALL INCLUSIVE"

    You are chosen or you are NOT !

    God does not answer to anyone for who He choses anymore than you answer for who you chose to marry.

    Imagine someone trying to "TELL YOU" who to pick. lol

  46. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Tell you what sock puppet, your statement indicts both of you! lol lol Who are you hiding from this week? lol

  47. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I made my point sock puppet, it;s just that you have to see everything though your religiosity, I understand, you are a weak person who likes to feel powerful. smile

  48. chukra G profile image62
    chukra Gposted 7 years ago

    He created the ability for you to put yourself in hell or heaven. God did not betray you

  49. My Friend Shiyloh profile image59
    My Friend Shiylohposted 7 years ago

    Shiyloh says:
    Love overcomes all things including death.

    1. chukra G profile image62
      chukra Gposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      it is true but the matter is what kind of love.
      wink even history will fade, where your love going to survive.

      1. My Friend Shiyloh profile image59
        My Friend Shiylohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Shiyloh says:
        History cannot change love, love remains love,
        Love needs no defense and nothing can defend against love.
        Only one kind of love remains.

        1. chukra G profile image62
          chukra Gposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          find the truth, there you will find the love that you mentioned. dont expect it here

          1. My Friend Shiyloh profile image59
            My Friend Shiylohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Shiyloh says:
            Love is truth and has not come here to find anything.

            1. chukra G profile image62
              chukra Gposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              it came to find you my friend smile and it will always knocking you from within, give a hug to it.

              1. My Friend Shiyloh profile image59
                My Friend Shiylohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Shiyloh says:
                What is "it" ?

                1. chukra G profile image62
                  chukra Gposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  life

                  1. My Friend Shiyloh profile image59
                    My Friend Shiylohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Shiyloh says:
                    Love is life, light, and truth.
                    Love is the source of life.

  50. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    This post has all the same things as the last one. It is assumptive, condescending and denies most of the world their basic human rights, apart from that it is lovely! lol

 
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