Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

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Fairbearposted 14 years ago
I'll pick up on this thread where I left off in the last, but on a new topic. The last one was about a flaw in Christian theology, namely, the impossible definition of God. This one is about protective coloring in the Christian mentality; a smokescreen; the corrupt use of misdirection, complication, and invention in order to disguise and conceal an otherwise glaring necessity in Christian theology --that God sends people to Hell.

Christians hate to admit this, to themselves as well as to non-believers. They use free-will reasoning as a tool with which to conceal it, cover it up, and mask it. They find endless new ways to weave the concept of free will so that it diverts attention away from the obvious. But I'm going to lay it out for you clearly and plainly so that no honest, fair, and attentive Christian can contort it and hide it from sight.

God created Hell, and God created the rules.

Free will or no free will, these two facts of Christianity cannot be eliminated. They can be hidden, sure; Christians do it all the time. But they cannot be eradicated. So here they are out from under the rug of deception. Here they are in the light of day.

Some of you may not understand how these two facts prove that God sends people to Hell, so I'll clarify.

The first fact needs no clarification. God did indeed create Hell. If He didn't, who did? Some other divine being?
The second fact is the more important one. It would be OK if God only created Hell for Satan and the fallen angels. Some Christians insist this is the case. But in doing so they totally ignore the fact that God made the rules. Tell me if I have this rule wrong ---

RULE: "Anyone who does not believe in and accept Jesus Christ in their lifetime will spend eternity in Hell."

If God didn't make this rule, who did? Who created this condition? Who decided on these terms?
Did God have no choice in the matter?

When a parent spanks a child, who does the spanking? The parent.
When a jude sentences a criminal to prison, who does the sentencing? The judge.
When a human dies and is sentenced to Hell, who does the sentencing? The Judge (God)

To say anything else is just dishonest.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree.
  God does impose the sentence. But because of this He is construed as, "evil". I would disagree. It makes Him, JUST. I never wrote God did not write the laws. In fact I said that. And that is why I believe it to be absurd that anyone would argue as to "who" deserves to be punished for for breaking them.
  
  Free Will is not "used as a tool.." to mask anything. In every complex society there has got to be rules/laws etc. There is a sort of Yin and Yang to all in the universe. A good and bad. A opposite to everything.
  
  What the nonbelievers like to do, as with you as well I see is to IGNORE the fact that God just as He wrote the laws, created hell and the consequences for sin/disbelief, He also created forgiveness, redemption, a pardon for those consequences. Free will was designed in an effort by God to allow mankind a choice.
  We were NOT in other words, designed as mindless machines programmed to love Him, serve Him etc.
  
  But here is the two edge sword of free will: That we can and sometimes do choose to disobey or not believe.
  You chose to use the example of a parent who spanks their child. That parent as you put it carries out a sentence.
  The child disobeyed.
  The parent set the rules.
  The parent carried out the justice.
  Does that then make it the parents "fault" for spanking or the child's disobediance/choice to break the rules?
  
  We have rule of law in the land, they are written as are the consequences.
  A judge enforces that law and carries out justice.
  A criminal made a choice to break the law.
  A judge imposes sentencing.
  Is it then the judges "fault" the criminal now sits behind bars or the judicial system's fault for writing the laws, or is it the criminals fault for breaking the law?
  
  In either of those cases does it make the parent or judge or even the laws/rules and or consequences "evil"?
  
  Prisons serve a purpose. Would one say they are "evil" places? Maybe. None the less they serve a purpose as they confine people who break the law as punishment for their crimes. And we, accept that. we may not like knowing there are people in them knowing they are not free, knowing they do not enjoy the comforts we on the "outside" do, but we accept it as we could not possibly allow for those inside to run amuck and wreak havic commiting more crime(s). Too we see prisons as a benefit in the regard that becuase they exist and peopple know and see where they will go if they break the law, there is a greater number of people who would rather not end up there and so they choose to not break the law.
  
  Hell is the same. It does in fact serve a purpose. It was intended for Satan and fallen angels and yes, those who break Gods laws or really, this that in itself is not true. I break Gods laws from time to time. Nobody is "sinless". Yet I as a believer have chosen to take my pardon. simply because one is a sinner does not impose the penalty of hell. You said right, "anyone who does accept or believe in Christ..." Ok, having said that I will get back to my point about hell.
  
  God is perfect. His kingdom is perfect. In that perfection there is no and cannot be any lawlessness. I think we can all agree that a perfect society would be in fact, free from crime.
  Or atleast those who would rather, choose to commit crimes.
  
  Now one might say that an eternity in hell burning forever is a torturous way to live and not fitting for the crimes of man. But it is written very clearly that a disbeliief will then only lead to that sentence. So then, if knowing that, why would one choose then to ignore it and not believe in Christ? Just as a criminal who commits murder in a state with the death penalty realizes he/she may get caught and sentenced to death, yet willingly commits the act anyway, regardless of the outcome.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it is. If you'll look a few posts previous to yours you'll see that Lady E. did just that. She used free will to cover up the fact that the parent in her scenario sent the child to Aunty's. Since you agree with me that God does the sending, then you'd have to disagree with her and see how she is indeed using free will as a concealment tool. So there you have it --people do that all the time. I'm sure we'll see it again on this thread.
  
  As for the rest of your enormous post, first I'll tell you that if you think this thread is in response to your post on my other thread, you are mistaken. It's just a coincidence of timing.
  
  Furthermore, this thread has nothing to do with whether or not God is evil. All this thread is about is whether or not God sends people to Hell, and you are in agreement with me about that. It is you who felt the necessity to go to such lengths to defend your God's image as a good and loving being.
  
  But I'll go along with it on one point.
  
  You ask if a parent spanks a child for disobeying, is it the parents fault that the child got spanked? I'd say no. It's not the parent's fault, the parent was just carrying out justice, like you said. The fault in this case lies with the child. But lets alter the scenario a little bit. What if the parent shot the child in the head for disobeying? Whose fault would the child's death be? Anyone would say it is the parent's fault. Why? Because a parent who shoots their child for disobeying is evil. In no way was it the child's fault that it died. Even if the child's disobedience was unspeakable, it would still be the parent's fault. Because the punishment went far beyond the boundaries of reasonability and fairness, not to mention the law.
  
  And this is my opinion about the Christian God. He is evil for sending people to Hell. If you disagree and think He is Good for sending people to Hell, then that's just a difference of opinion between you and me. You could say whatever you wanted and I would always think that your God is evil for sending people to Hell. But that's not what this thread was supposed to be about. On the topic of this thread, you and I agree. God sends people to Hell.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Atomswifey gave a very clear and concise response. Non-believers cannot stand the thought of hell being a real place, but it is for those who choose not to accept Christ.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is the first thing you posted to this thread. I cut out all of the rest of it because this one statement is the ONLY thing that applies the point I'm trying to make.
  
  Are you going to go back on your own statement?
  
  You've agreed with my point. I have no other issue with you and your beliefs. You managed to be honest, and that is commendable. Thank you. Now why don't you stand by your own words.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Could you show me the passage where it says that? I think it is really important to show that to everyone. I would hate for you to just be spouting Christian nonsense unnecessarily. So I am very interested in reading the FACTUAL(?) text. Good luck finding it.
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  pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. I notice you have zero hubs and one fan. And you come here and post this rot? Clearly you are just spoiling for a fight.
  
  I'll take damnation, thanks. All my friends will be in hell, and frankly, I don't want any part of a God who sets up such a perverse test and then punishes people forever if they fail it. I wouldn't be friends with a PERSON like that, never mind a Supreme Being. Have you considered that if you are right you will have to hang around with this hardass insecure deity for all eternity? Can't God just go buy a big pickup truck or new sportscar to compensate for His Insecurities? Is the only option he has for his perversity to take it out on mankind?
  
  That's sad.
  
  Hanging around with such a God sounds like hell to me. You are welcome to it if that is what you want.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very sad and pathetic
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's a perverse test to accept Jesus or not, to accept that "pardon" for all the sin of mankind?
  How does God in creating us with free will insecure for doing that?
  insecure - lacking self-confidence or assurance
  insecure - not firm or firmly fixed; likely to fail or give way
  insecure - lacking in security or safety
  God is assurance He has no need for mans terms as far as "self confidence" is concerned
  God is firmly fixed, He NEVER fails!
  God is security and safety
  
  To be insecure is to be seperate from God:
  You cannot be "self confident" if you do not know yourself, and you cannot claim to know yourself if you deny the "God" in you, that is: the parts of you which He is a part of.
  You are not firnly fixed, you being human are likely fail from time to time
  There is no safety in depending on yourself or any other man for that matter, when concerning your future
  
  There are some who like to attach "human adjectives" in relation to God and do that in itself is blasphemy.
  God is in no way bound by the restraints of this world, man is
  God is not sinful, man is
  God did not fall, man did, and has, and continues to
  
  God wants to give you life
  God wants for you to be made new
  God wants for you to love Him as He loves you
  God wants for you to be saved in essence from yourself, to have the slate wiped clean through the acceptance of His son, through belief in Him and forgiveness is granted ALWAYS!
  What man or judge will ever do the same?
  You said it yourself, you would not like someone, or be friends with a PERSON who was perverse like that, and yet
  GOD does
  He loves you regardless of your sin
  He loves you and is willing to forgive you regardless of your denial of Him.
  God sacrificed Himself for you and all of mankind so that even the most hardened criminals against Him could be set free
  
  Think of this way,
  You are standing in front of a judge after being found guilty of a lifetime of multiple crimes, crimes which you have stored up in that lifetime. A MULTITUDE of them and the judge says to you,
  Just accept and believe in me, ask for forgiveness and I will wipe your record clean and set you free.
  Thats God.
  
  This perversion you speak of is exactly what God hates! He hates the perversion of mankind. He hates the multiple crimes man has commited in direct defiance of Him.
  To God, no matter how "good" you think you are, you are not. It is His standard of excellence, His standard of perfection that you will be judge on, not mans!
  
  Who is it that says one is good or not good, evil or not evil?
  Man (The world)?
  But Man(the world) has varying degrees of this. The world judges according to what the world views as good or evil and that judgement is always failing.
  The reason?
  The world is not perfect. The world is flawed. The world is neither moral nor ethical (good). So what then gives the world the authority to judge mankind if being neither moral or ethical(good) on things which are moral and ethical(good)?
  
  God being perfectly good can be the only judge as to what is good and for that too, what is right or lawful.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You've got me all wrong. You totally misread my post. I am not a Christian. I was not defending the Christian position. I was exposing it for its true nature which Christians try to hide. Get it now?
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If God created "the rules" then he created a hell of a lot of rule breakers. No one is exempt from that. Seems to me if there is a god, he wouldn't sabotage our existence with such stuff. Seems to me that people make rules so that they can esteem themselves better than others.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The thing is God doesn't exist in M O. ,because he couldn't be such a masochist ! Rules to be break or not !! what a gambler !
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God is not the "gambler", you are. You are wagering your soul on the belief that He is not there, not really even knowing that for sure.
  Knowing of the consequences of that as you do, I would say that is a HUGE gamble!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry !! I always have a trump under my sleeve !! for such a case
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really and what "trump" might that be?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  not telling my game but it's fair play :lol.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "telling" your play to God makes no difference, He's alredy seen your hand!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  .lol: don't make me laugh. I'm about to colapse
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And too, you really will have no "play" in that case.
  If you do not believe in God, and He exists, what sort of "play" would you have or will you have to refute it then?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh !! But I'm playing with you !!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No you really are not. You are gambling and or "playing" around with God. You are wagering your soul. Putting it up for grabs in a winner take all "game" of life and death.
  
  And you being a novice are competing against an expert, in this case God.
  
  But you said it, you do not believe God is there playing or not, and you gamble that He isn't. That is the game you are playing.
  But you don't even know the rules of play.
  In order for you to win, you would have to show with your hand, that God does not exist. And you cannot.
  
  So really you are under the mindset, that you just do not know for sure if He is there or not and subsequently, are then taking a HUGE risk and or gamble, odds are greatly stacked against you since you nor has anyone else sharing your belief, ever concluded there is no God.
  For one to do so, they would of had to search the boudaries of time and space, and even beyond that and found that He is not anywhere.
  Since you cannot possibly do that, nor anyone else for that matter, you would then have to agree that being time and space are infinite it would be possible for Him to be there.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But time and space are not infinite. its boundaries are within human mind as well as the belief in God, for those who chose to believe. Not arguing with you anymore. It's useless
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  Bibowenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God does send people to hell in the sense that a judge sentences the criminal. God also makes the rules, but His rules are consistent with His character. I can act in a way that does not conform to my character; God never does. On this point, we are probably more in agreement than not.
  
  Yes, I'm ultimately responsible for what happens within the four walls of my house. But I hold my children responsible for their behavior. They are morally-culpable agents even though I am ultimately responsible.
  
  But, if you want to imply that "God is responsible," I'd ask, "to whom is he responsible"?
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No implications. I outlined my point clearly. My only intention was to call Christians out for trying to hide the true nature of their religion by saying that God doesn't send people to Hell. I appreciate your honesty. The difference between you and I is that you think God is good for sending people to Hell. I think a God who sends people to Hell can be nothing but evil. And that, for both of us, is strictly a matter of opinion.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whoever made him I guess!
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Anyone who does not believe in and accept Jesus Christ in their lifetime will spend eternity in Hell."
  
  I know you believe this to be true, but....What if a person says, "Forgive me of my sins Lord, Jesus save me," in his/her last breath...Won't that person be saved? You can answer here, or in a private message to me....
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're wrong. I don't believe this to be true.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Send me a private message when you realize how pathetic you are. I can recommend a good therapist in your area.
  
  I can even help with your obvious lack of education.
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No thanks Mark....There's enough crazy people on the web already without adding another one...
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh by the way...I've had plenty of education, and it's all from the Lord God's Hands.....After all He created all...Including you, but you just refuse to believe it....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not a very good advertisement then. You could try reading some books - that might help. I assume you can read.
  
  I suspect your definition of the word "education," has been "interpreted" to mean something other than it's real meaning.
  
  Good luck scaring some people into believing the same stuff you do. I am sure Jesus would be very proud.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, you are such a likable curmudgeon.
  
  By the way; I thought the name was "jeebus." I say that a lot so figured that was the right name. My favorite thing to say to the radical "soldiers of gawduh" is "Jeebus protect me from your worshipers."
  
  Now when "you people" get serious I hope you turn to FSM. He IS the one true gawduh. Ra-men.
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  friskeyperposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  macbeth25posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have expressed your beliefs -- I disagree so, it's my turn. God may "send people to Hell," but they've already paid for the ticket. God gave us free will and free choice including the right to disbelieve in Him and disobey His teachings. He also gave us a set of rules, the commandments, ethics, or whatever you choose to call them. All major religions have them and they are mostly the same regarding murder, theft, harming others in any way and the like. If you know the Christian Bible, you know God has a temper – He is quite capable of becoming angry and will take direct action if He does. Sodom and Gomorrah and Noah’s Flood are just some examples. At the same time, I don’t believe He intervenes very often. He will have plenty of time to “reward” transgressors after they pass from this “veil of tears.” I believe each choice closes some doors on the path of life and opens other doors, or perhaps windows. Our location on the path at any given time depends upon the choices we made to get to that spot. I believe God sometimes asks us to do things. If we hear Him and decide to do as He asks, He may reward us. On the other hand, should we not hear or not do as He asks, I don’t believe He punishes us but allows us to go our way to wherever our path might take us. This means that God didn’t tell David to fight Goliath, He asked him to do it. When David decided to do God’s wish, God helped guide the stone to the right target. I don’t ask you to believe as I do. I’m merely expressing my beliefs and I’m comfortable with them. I wish you and all others equal comfort in theirs
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Me too , sorry I have only gone back a couple of pages ,and it sure looks like a busy lil thread.
  
  I came to finish a hub and my naughty lil fingers came to the forum
  
  Places the coffee pot on the side table -help yourselves
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The only point I've made in my post is a point that you agree with. That God sends people to Hell. I said nothing about why He sends people to Hell. That's beside the point. You and I are in agreement about the topic of this thread.
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  auntiebreeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, most of what you say is all true. I am saved, believe it God, go to church, there are many things I don't understand or agree with. (free will)
  
  God did make hell for Lucifer and his followers and it was never his intention for us to go to hell. He didn't expect to have to send Lucifer there either. Lucifer was God's most beautiful, most thought of angel.
  
  I have seen many things in the bible that a different section contradicts. Why? each book is one persons account, we all see and understand things differently. (point of view)
  
  I was brought up a Protestant, where the old testament was used. I was taught you got to heaven by being good.
  
  When I think about it myself, I don't understand how someone can be nasty thier whole life and repent, then go to heaven.
  
  I personally believe there are levels of heaven. Simply, if you go to a concert, we can't all have a front row seat.
  
  I personally think the world hasn't ended yet, because Jesus does not want to lose one soul.
  
  I also feel there is a level of accountability. Someone insane cannot stand in the same light as a person who sins and knows it.
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  thevoiceposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Gopd Jesus the holy spirit may not send any human life to hell since human life has been made into hell by the human classification of human life such as religions race nation. God by Jesus taught only of human birth life teachings of Jesus life with God always. Religions have placed child of God againts child of God this wrong God Jesus the holy spirit are first always human birth right of God.
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  KURTKposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  nikki1posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God didn't create hell.. the serpent who went against God did. Lusiver.. God is all the good things in this world. Beautiful skies, birds singing, happiness in the world. God loves all of us, its our turn to return the favor. He has faith in all of us. He believes in all of us..
  http://hubpages.com/hub/having-faith-101
  Hugs to all..
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  TToni9posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  TToni9---H. G. Adams wrote, "Hell is truth seen too late."
  Most often, if one does not feel the need to communicate with Jesus and believe in Him they are quite disinterested in whether there is a Hell or not.
  As I read your article I ask myself if you are trying to convince others or yourself about the matter.
  To me, hell is the natural consequence to actions unrepented. It's natural negative and positive physics. We end up where we belong. You've taken time to complain about God, why not try giving Him the benefit of the doubt? Not because you'll suffer Hell if you don't but because of how much we miss out on without a heavenly Father to turn to for a deeper life meaning. Hell in the Bible is described best as "the abscence of (relationship with) God/Jesus". If you don't know Him than why would you want to spend eternity with Him? And if we don't know Him in a positive way we may be found inside the consequences of leading others astray unwittingly. Like I quoted by H.G.Adams, "Hell is Truth seen too late."
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  world of the wiseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You need a days lessons, understanding the ways of God is not simple for everyone. Do you accept me as a teacher?
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please teach me a lesson. I need one, teacher.
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Lady_Eposted 14 years ago
God is a loving God and does not send people to Hell.
People have choices.

Scenario!
You have a child and say to the child if you behave well this month, we will go to Eurodisney for Xmas, but if you don't, I will send you to Aunty and it will be a very boring xmas.
Do you love the child? Ofcourse.

Child behaves - you go away for Xmas.
Child doesn't - away to Boring Aunty.

Did you send the child to the Aunty or did they make the Choice?

The Child made the Choice. You did not send them. Punto!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will never send my child to Aunty ! I will never punish my child, because I love him. I will give advice and then ,free will. If he still wants to behave bad?...In the end experience will show him the right path. I will never, never create a Hell for my child!...Now.If I'm brainwashed....
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you do not correct or otherwise punish your children they become spoiled rotten brats and end up in places like prison. They have not learned the concept of earning priviledges, have not learn to take responsibility and have have not learned that there ARE consequences for bad behavior.
  When we discipline a child We ARE in fact loving them.
  
  Now this goes without saying that sometimes, just as with God and us, you instruct your children, correct them, supply all the neccessary needs, offer them guidance, create rules, tell of of the consequences for breaking them etc. and they still choose to disobey. And that is where their/our free will comes into play.
  
  You gave a double negative to your comment there too: "In the end experience will show him the right path." What "end experience" are you talking about? A consequence perhaps???
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In the end, experience..(.not end experience)
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What if your child punches you in the face, or kicks your spouse ?
  
  Do you "give him advice" ?
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  Lady_Eposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Lol. We'll send them off to Aunty Doubtfire.
  
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL that wouldn't be much of a punishment though, she's way too much fun!
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I promise you, experience can be crueler then gentle punishment as a young child. LOVE necessitates you teach your child, there are results to actions. (Hell is a different story..)
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Herein lies the problem with the parents of today. They do not love their children enough topunish them for wrongdoing. If you actually love your child, you will punish your child when necessary.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever you say, sir. I don't care
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is absurd (no offense). Did the child make the choice? Yes. Did the child know the consequences? Yes. Did the child enforce the consequences? No. The parent enforced the consequences. The parent designed the consequences. The parent set the conditions. This isn't a question of whether the parent loves the child. Nor is it a question of whether the child could have avoided the consequences. It is a question of who established the rules. The parent did.
  
  Your scenario is exactly the kind of diversion from the obvious that I mentioned.
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  Lady_Eposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As much as possible, I avoid religious posts because I think a lot of them are posted with the intention to provoke certain people. (then again, I could be wrong).
  
  I will not be getting into a long reply session with you (as is the norm in Religious threads) but the fact of the matter is: God doesn't send people to hell. Hopefully, someone else will make a posting to help you understand this.
  
  All that's left for me to say is: Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
  Cheers.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I see, so you're saying God is evil etc. for writing the laws in the first place?
  
  In other words, had God not wrote the laws, nobody would be found guilty of breaking them and consequently, nobody would ever go to hell, right?
  
  But in everything in nature there are rules/laws. Why should God be any different in enforcing His own?
  What you are doing is criticizing the law itself.
  
  A criminal could say the same of society in creating it's laws.
  had the laws not been written there would be no reason for creating/building prisons. No body would be guilty afterall of breaking crimes that do not exist.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm only saying that God's punishment makes Him evil. I don't care about the laws. It's the punishment that matters.
  
  Would you say that Sadam Hussein's laws during his dictatorship were questionable and evil? Of course you would. That's why he was taken out of power and executed. Just because a person, or being has the power to decide the rules and the consequences doesn't mean that person or being is right for doing so. Power does not equate righteousness. Just look at Adolph Hitler. And that's all I'm saying about God. He is Evil for sending people to Hell. Just like Hitler was Evil to sentence Jewish people to the concentration camps.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  a punishing God is a delusion of brainwashed minds full of fear of the unknown. And of feeble people in need of a God who punishes wrong, as that's the only way, it seems ,they can achieve righteousness, being so wrong themselves
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And where do you draw your conclusions from that we are wrong, that is, to believe in a God that punishes wrong?
  Who are you to sit in judgement on who is wrong or what system of beliefs are wrong?
  To judge us that we are "full of fear" etc.
  we are not full of fear, but are in fact, full of the opposite of fear, faith.
  
  When you go to sit on a chair, do you have a fear it will not support you? Do you question it's strength and integrity to support you? No. You simply sit having full faith it will support you.
  In much the same way, we Christians have faith in God. we do not fear Him or any punishment from Him, we love Him and know we are free from punishment from Him because of our faith.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you love the word 'judge', don't you ?? I'm not judging anyone !!! I'm giving my opinion !!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not the one who first used that word(judging), you did!
  
  And in giving your "opinion" you were in fact judging:
  To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration to
  a. Law To hear and decide on in a court of law; try: judge a case.
  b. Obsolete To pass sentence on; condemn.
  c. To act as one appointed to decide
  
  2. To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation
  3. Informal To have as an opinion or assumption; suppose
  4. To form an opinion or evaluation
  
  So what were saying again???
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Since you are so fond of meaningless analogies and semantics to demonstrate your faith, let me give you one to demonstrate my lack thereof:
  
  When you go to bed at night, do you have a fear there is a crocodile under your bed waiting to eat your flesh? Do you feel like you need to stay awake all night worrying it will come to get you? No. You simply lie in bed having full faith it's not there and will not get you.
  
  In much the same way, we atheists have no faith in God. We do not fear him or any punishment from him.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ahhh but there it is isn't it???
  You have no fear of the crocodile because you know for sure it is not there! But how do you know for sure it isn't? And to conclude for certain that it isn't one might be inclined to look under the bed right?
  
  I mean, you could argue, well I do not live in a place where crocodiles do, therefor, I do not believe one is there. But our belief is that God is everywhere.
  So, if there were crocodiles everywhere, one might think it possible to have one under their bed.
  
  So then, in your faith that asserted there, are you claiming that you have searched every nook and cranny of time and space and found God to not be there?
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OMG! You are hilarious. Okay, I HAVE had a chair or two break... Sorry, I worry every time I sit down now. LMAO. Very lame. BTW, I was poking fun at your absurd analogies... Guess you didn't pick up on that one.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And how much stronger than a man made chair is God?
  If you had a chair lets say, made of steal would you have the same fear of it breaking? I think not.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A chair made out of God would be the most frightening of all! That would mean I'd back up to it, plant down my ass, and WHOOPS! OWWWWW! Broken tail bone- NO chair.
  
  BTW, it's spelled "steel". "Steal" is one of your so-called sins. Any chair can break, by the way.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There you go just inserting your dogma again. Love how you *slip* in the thing about your belief that God is everywhere. Has nothing to do with the analogy at hand.
  
  I'm more likely to believe crocodiles are everywhere than God is everywhere, by the way. That's kinda my point. You just can't get this sarcasm thing to save your life, huh? Oops, that's right, you've already been saved. My bad.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh but it does.
  have to do with that analogy. Everything to do with it.
  In that analogy, you limit your perceptions to that of the space under your bed. Taking into account that crocodiles are in fact, not everywhere gives you the peace of mind needed to just lie down as you put it free from worry about any crocodiles being there.
  
  But lets just say, God is not everywhere, as I believe. Lets say He is outside time and space, or in it somewhere, anywhere. The fact remains He could be.
  He could or might be, here, there or everywhere.
  Can you know for sure He isn't?
  
  And that again, is where you gamble.
  You guess: an estimate based on little or no information that he is not there.
  and then you so assertively stated you have a "trump" against Him if He does.
  
  I posed the question which you have to answer, since "simply not showing a tell" is not a "trump"!
  A trump, would have to beat or win over the card played.
  You have no trump cards if God exists.
  There is no trump card, if God exists.
  But I digress, I posed the question, what "trump" is it that you have or think you have?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But now you say it is the punishment that is the problem. That God is evil or wrong becuase YOU believe the punishment does not "fit" the crime.
  But there you said it: "Power does not equate righteousness." righteousness : It is an attribute that implies that a person's actions are justified.
  You being his creation are not the one to decide if God was justified in His actions when creating Hell, His laws, and the consequences. You look at them and think according to your own limited perception that the consequences of sin are not fair or do not fit the crime.
  
  God does not have the need nor desire to "justify" his actions. He is God afterall and created those hearts you speak of. Our founders did not construct laws with "heart" in mind. They constructed law with justice in mind.
  
  God is JUSTICE. He created both law and justice. Again, you used the example of a judge sentencing a person to death for a traffic ticket because you reason that for a judge to do that he would be un-just. so the opposite would be true then, that a ticket is warranted and that a ticket is all that is needed or required to prevent further traffic infractions. Ok. I agree with that.
  that is reasonable.
  but then you argue and gave the example of Saddam and yes I agree he was a monster who deserved death. But there we reason that his crimes were severe enough to warrant death. We reasoned that, we did not give any regard to heart when it came to justice for him.
  
  The same is true with God. He is very clear on the law of sin that He created. He sees it much as we do in the above case, that sin corrupts, it lies, it kills, it destroys the very relationship He wants to have with us. He sees it as the most detestable thing man does. And there are no "degrees" of sin. In other words, God sees the nonbeliever just as guilty as someone like Saddam.
  
  He is no respector of persons! In our world, man is served justice according to varying degrees of guilt and or infractions. But in God's kingdom, EVERY sin is just as bad as the next.
  
  Too, God sees that people as He created them, have the capacity to choose life over death. They have the capacity to do right and not wrong. They have as He has given them, the opportunity to save themselves from eternal death by simply, believing.
  
  But look at us right now. Here we are having discussion about this. God wrote the law, it's there like it or not. He gave the consequence, like it or not. And yet even knowing this, there are those who would rather ignore the law and face the consequence. To the christian and of course to God, this is really ridiculous, when it is all so very avoidable.
  
  It is really rather odd to Him I am sure, that some people have chosen not to believe in Him, and do in fact sin. But that sadly is the case for Him and the non-believer.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And it is the job of a loving parent to do that.
  
  But there is more to it then that. What of the adult child who chooses to estrange him- or herself from the parents, as we all have done from God at some point or another? Would a loving God drag said child back home against his or her will and force said child to abide by the rules or try to keep the channels of communication open so that the child may freely choose to return to the family?
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To answer your question: perhaps not. Perhaps the loving God would indeed allow the child to do what it pleases. But the loving God would not send the Child to Hell when it's life was over. Only an evil God would do that.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Evil? or Just?
  Again as I pointed out earlier:
  It is not with evil intent one gets punished for crimes, it is justice.
  You say what you say because you are for lack of a better word, ignorant of the laws of God and how He imposes justice for the breaking of them.
  
  You wrote earlier that you thought it was justified for Saddam to be executed for his crimes. You also said, that if a judge were to sentence a traffic violator to death he would be wrong or not justified in that action.
  And you would be right accroding to mans laws.
  But,
  When concerning God and His laws:
  Every sin is just as bad as any other!
  There are no "degrees" of sin.
  
  To God, you and I are just as guilty in other words, as Saddam is/was. The only difference which sets us a part from that is forgiveness through acceptance and belief in Him.
  
  Its very simple, God is righteous. He doesn't need or neither is he required to be justified in His actions. In that righteousness sets his kingdom, which in itself is pure. In order for us as unclean, sinners or "criminals", those guilty of breaking Gods laws, to enter in is through a pardon for our sin. A cleansing of that sin, washed off of us.
  
  Otherwise, if not "pardoned" we are guilty and must suffer the consequences. that is not evil, it is just.
  
  You equated our founders and writers of the law as to having hearts and thats why or how they chose the consequences for crimes. But their hearts and or love had nothing to do with that, it was applying justice that they came to their conclusions.
  
  To God, the obvious conclusion He came to was to make a punishment so severe that people would want to, regardless of how very good sin feels to them, would choose to accept Christ and not suffer that consequence.
  
  God said "Once the son has set you free, you are free indeed." God sees you then upon acceptance of Christ as being, not guilty, not dirty with sin, but clean and renewed, blameless and spotless. He does then see you as pure.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My first response to your questions on this thread.
  
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've already read that. You're just trying to avoid my most recent post. It's obvious! This is getting ridiculous. What is your point in bringing this old post back up? You're just doing whatever you can to sidestep the real issue. Come on. What do you say to my last post?!
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
I know that when I have answered to a judge for an apparent offense (great or small) and I was found guilty, I received a sentence and I found no fault with the judge. Nor did I blame him for my actions.

I do not have any problem with being corrected for my errors.

If we are not corrected by the judge, our parents, our friends, our supervisor, then we know they do not give a rip about us.

Correction for lawless behavior is everywhere.
You can have rules or you can have anarchy.
Why? Because people do not naturally correct themselves.

I know that when I have answered to a judge for an apparent offense (great or small) and I was found guilty, I received a sentence and I found no fault with the judge. Nor did I blame him for my actions.

I do not have any problem with being corrected for my errors. In fact, I respect the judge, if he gives me to easy of a sentence, I might just figure that it was worth it and do it again.

If we are not corrected by the judge, our parents, our supervisor, then we know they do not give a rip about us. (repeated on purpose)

"Some" people stop doing wrong when the pain is greater than the pleasure.

Some never stop at all and are just incorrigible!!!

Incorrigibility leads to being annihilated.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, this thread is not about fault. It is about who does the punishing. I think the Christian God is evil for sending people to Hell. Would you question the judge if he sentenced you to death for a traffic violation? Would you think him unfair and evil? Of course you would. But thanks to America, that kind of thing probably wouldn't happen to you. Why? Because the founders of America had a heart. In that aspect, they were good people.
  
  Oh, and you can't call Hell correction. That is an inadequate label. Hell doesn't correct anything. All it does is eliminate and deter. Correction is only the case when the criminal is set free after a serving a sentence to live a more "correct" life than before. This is in contrast to capitol punishment, which is not correction because the criminal will be allowed to "correct" their behavior. Capitol punishment, as well as Hell, only serves as to eliminate offenders and deter would-be offenders from committing crimes.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The same question still stands as it always did.
  Do you chose life and live? Do you chose a curse and die?
  What will you plant in your garden?
  We have correction for those who can be corrected.
  We have annihilation for those who cannot be corrected.
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
"Some" people stop doing wrong when the pain is greater than the pleasure.

How true and profound!
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Rebecca E.posted 14 years ago
This of course means that while we have free will to decide what we do is wrong or right ( and we do) we know what teh concequences are.

I think that is the simplest answer to it all. IF the concequence is hell, that is the concequence, and we knew about it all along.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I will never send my child to Aunty ! lol I will never punish my child, because I love him. I will give advice and then ,free will. If he still wants to behave bad?...In the end, experience will show him the right path. I will never, never create a Hell for my child!...Now.If I'm brainwashed....

now if you're brainwashed... I don't have anything else to say

Lady E, your post was so funny ! It made my day Tx !!
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Heaven is kinda like my garden, and the lake of fire is kinda like my burn barrel. When I pull weeds out of my garden and cast them into the barrel of fire, because they are choking the tomatoes. I'm not hating the weeds nor am I punishing them. I don't think that the weeks are burning for ever even though the barrel is always there.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well written!
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Do you give the child advice for punching you in the face?

Advice for kicking your mate?

Advice for buring your house down?

Advice for stabbing the dog?
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
"Correction is only the case when the criminal is set free after a serving a sentence to live a more "correct" life than before."

Our very time here on this earth is made, created and designed with that in mind.

We are free here to choose to live that "corrected" life or not. God already has corrected and does correct us in that, He gave the Bible which has the law written in it. We get corrected through our ability to punish ourselves when we sin. That is in this life.

To go on from this life into the next is our reward for living that "corrected" life here.

All have sinned, all are guilty and all have already been corrected through the curses passed down from the garden. Now it's time to stop and do the right thing.

Example:
You can grab your child from running into traffic and spank their bottoms for it. You can instruct them as to the dangers of it. But if your child chooses to disobey you over and over again and continues this bad behavior eventually...SPLAT! sorry to be so blunt but you get my point. lol

The time for correction, instruction and the like, we are living it right now.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - let me get this straight in my head. You already know that the child is going to get splattered, and you know it will disobey you and spend 57 years in agony in a wheelchair being fed through a tube. You made sure that the human body will get splattered - and you have made sure that the car driver will be there to splatter the child.
  
  And you call this love?
  
  Sorry to be so blunt, but your irrational beliefs are pretty pathetic. And your imaginary super being is the stuff of nightmares.
  
  I suggest therapy. And plenty of it - soon.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So let me get this straight:
  
  Your perception of how God should be if he does exist is that of a being who created mindless machines unable to make decisions on their own right? I mean that is what in fact you are saying.
  
  In your description there you were implying that God should have in knowing what was to happen, not created us at all or if when designing us should have omitted free will. That in your words, he is not loving because bad things happen, he knew it would happen, and created us anyway so...He was wrong.
  
  please.
  
  I think even you with having that brain GOD gave you, can atleast be appreciative for having a life and the choices in it, regardless of the negatives.
  
  Let me put this to you another way:
  I have a friend, who got pregnant with a child with down syndrome. Her and her husband chose to go through with the pregnancy and have that baby.
  Were they aware of the risks? Yes.
  Were they aware of the problems to come? Yes.
  Were they knowledgable to the fact that their child would not be growing up in a world let's say, "normally" Yes.
  Were they aware and knowing of the complications and or hurts that child may suffer? Yes.
  And yet, they chose to have the baby anyway, why?
  Because they loved the baby regardless. And just because they knew of the above mentioned negatives affects on them and their child, well in advance, gave them no reason to choose otherwise.
  
  But too, you imply there that because God knew, that lets say, a person like Hitler would come from his creation, he should have not made anyone and that is just ridiculous.
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
@...fairbear
You say you do not believe in "the God of the Christians"
but you do believe in God.
so what does your God do with incorrigible people?
I do not refer to myself as a "Christian"
I take no such label.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I know God. And he lets incorrigible people suffer while they live in their incorrigibility. The lifestyle is bad enough. Then when they die they go to the same place everyone goes. People's lives in no way determine their eternal destination.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not logical at all.
  People who are incorrigible do not belong in the same house with those who are correctable, they are kept "outside" even right here on earth and the choices you make determine your place. You chose life or death. Not someone does it for you.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The thing is, to God these people you describe as incorrigible are just like everyone else. It's only you (mankind) who sees the differences among people based on their beliefs, actions, and thoughts. God sees no difference. Every person is equal in God's eyes whether they are a serial killer or Mother Theresa. They are all precious souls who deserve relief from the pain of life.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Annihilation is relief for them and everyone that knows them.
  That is why it is call "INCORRIGIBLE"...they want no relief !!!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And you're willing to gamble on that then? With your soul, I mean.
  I mean, ok lets say you are right, fine you die, I die everyone eventually dies and according to you, we all do go on to God but being completely unconcerned with how we have lived here, allows for us to dwell with Him.
  Boy, wouldn't that be just great? I mean, think of it, no accountability, no responsibility. I mean why would have to be good at all? Why not just be another Saddam Hussein! yeah, great place to be don't ya think? To spend an eternity with people like Saddam Hussein and Hitler, oh yeah, I want to spend all of eternity with those two!
  
  But I digress,
  
  But what is it I ask you, will come to you, if you are wrong? I mean, what happens then? So you would rather live in this world, which is temporary, (only if you're lucky might you live say 100 years), but you would rather ignore Gods laws. So then, If you, who now knows beyond any shadow of any doubt since you have obviously read all of our words here,(no excuse there), as to what the consequences of that are, would you choose to continue to disbelieve?
  
  To christians:
  See and even here we see that even when facing the possibility of an eternity in hell they are still stubborn in their defiance of God.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you know what's wrong with you people ? that you talk about God as if he has a face ,body ,arms ,legs... and souls likewise. Well, I don't think so !! You can't see god face to face, when you die, because you wouldn't have one. God can't speak to you because he hasn't got a mouth. Don't be so naive!! Wake up !! Can't you see that Death is another situation??!!! It Doesn't involve Life as we know it . Enough with Fairy Tales !! Grow up !! Or growing up is too scary for you???!!!!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL and you know all of this because???? I take it that you assert these things having knowledge as to all that is in the entire universe and beyond right?
  
  Oh but you must.
  In order to make that sort of "absolute" statement that you did you have to.
  
  My point is this,
  I could say "absolutely",
  There are no frogs in Brazil.
  That is what's called an absolute statement.
  I absolutely affirmed that there are no frogs in Brazil.
  
  But to make such a claim I would have had to,
  1. been to brazil and
  2. searched every single solitary inch of Brazil for frogs
  3. searched every home and building in Brazil (in case someone had one in an aquarium etc.) and finally,
  3. found none
  
  So given we come to that, then I should assume that you to have asserted so absolutely as you did that God does not have a body, soul, eyes, ears, a mouth, etc. that you are an authority on the universe, you have scavenged the inner most and outer most parts of it, every inch and have concluded that God is not there, right? and if He is there, he doesn't look anything like us, even though you have not seen Him to know either way?
  
  Ok.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you said :
  
  So given we come to that, then I should assume that you to have asserted so absolutely as you did that God does not have a body, soul, eyes, ears, a mouth, etc. that you are an authority on the universe, you have scavenged the inner most and outer most parts of it, every inch and have concluded that God is not there, right? and if He is there, he doesn't look anything like us, even though you have not seen Him to know either way?
  
  Ok.
  
  something like it. It's called 'common sense'. something maybe you don't know as you're above 'common people'!!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But a sense common or not does not prove what you asserted nor does your common sense make you an authority of knowing all things in the universe or beyond, therefor you, not being an authority, never having scavenged the universe for God or His likeness/image cannot assert your claims.
  
  Common sense should then tell you, that you just, do not know or are unsure either way.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're the one that thinks is an authority in the matter !! i never said i was. You people are tooo much. It's tooo hilarious !
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No I said in order for you to make such an absolute statement that you did, you would have to be an authority.
  And I, have a belief, I do not claim to be an authority on His existance or what He looks like.
  
  And thanks for the point
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tantrum,
  
  so how do you propose the earth all that is in it came about? Can you tell me what came first, the chicken or the egg?
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You must have missed it when I said I know God. You see, the things I have said about Him are true, and the things you have said about Him are false. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts. I'm sorry you can't see that. You probably never will. But that's ok 'cause you can't help it and God isn't so evil that He's going to make you burn for it.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh so, you believe in God, just not hell. I get that, ok. But then, where do you get your knowledge of God from? The Bible? Because I am confident if you read more it does tell of that consequence/punishment.
  
  I get MY facts from His word (the Bible), in His word, God clearly states that those who do not believe or do not accept Christ will end up there.
  
  What you have done, in my opinion is create your "Burger King, have it your way" style of God.(Got that from you BJC! ) You don't like the thought of their being a hell because you feel it makes God appear "evil" to send people there. So you construct or otherwise order God and his righteousness up to "fit" into what makes you most comfortable or easier for you to digest.
  
  And again here is another one trying to make an "absolute" statement. You said, You are right, and I am wrong. But then you must know this because you,,well must have died, and then seeing that you and everyone else were in the same place and that God was not sending anyone there... Please.
  
  Just admit you do not know. That would much better than asserting that you do, that I am wrong which is also saying the Bible is wrong.
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If I had to die in order to know what I know, then you also would have to die to know what you say you know. But I guess that doesn't apply to you because you have a book that tells you all the answers.
  
  You got it wrong. I don't believe in God, I said that I know God. There's a difference. I know Him because He has entered my life and He accompanies me at all times, speaking to me and bringing me fulfillment. I don't need to believe in what is right in front of me every day. It is understandable that you don't think I know Him, but that doesn't change the facts.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First, No I would not have to die to say what I have said because I have not asserted unlike you in an absolute satement that you are wrong or that I am right. I said I believe this to be true etc.
  You said very absolutely that I was wrong about God. Having never died and had to face the consequence you cannot be sure that I am wrong.
  Second,
  A book? His Book. If you know Him as well as you claim, you should know He authored a book.
  Ans yes, in it I have all the answers I need. Yet I too much like you claim, feel him in every fiber of my being.
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
I think it important to note here as well that we speak of God "sending" people to Hell, what we are really saying is that God physically puts them there which is true. He is the one to "physically" put them there. But really whether or not you will be put there is a choice.

God designed it that way. My point is this:
All who are reading this are hearing of the option they have to believe in God and keep to His commandments, thus avoiding hell. The same is true for those reading, if they choose not to believe nor keep His commandments and are in fact consequently, sent there.

So it is the person's choice in the matter whether or not they will go or not.
God does not just pick certain people and indiscriminately send them there at will or whim.

People have a concious decision to make. Do or I or don't I, not will He or won't He. God already made that very clear that if you do, he won't and if don't He will. And then you might say, "but I would not ever choose nor do I think anyone else would choose to burn in hell!" Really? If that were true none of us would be in here having this discussion.

The choice is very clear:
acceptance and belief: Life/Heaven
disobediance and doubt: Death/Hell
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Not real sure The Creator is interested in saving you from your own bent on destroying yourself.
He often steps aside and let's you have at it.

It's like how you deal with an alcoholic. You tell them.....
"When you are done with the destroying of yourself, your family and your friends.
I will be right over here."

Eventually the pain “from” the booze gets to be greater than the pleasure “in” the booze.

For some alcoholics though, they hit bottom again and again and again.....until they fall through the bottom and never recover from destruction.
Some let nothing stop them from utter ruin.

This is INCORRIGIBILITY !!!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So God is a Sadist. This is getting worse ! _
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope! He says He gets no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
  Men get pleasure in killing the innocent however.
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
God thought about all He had created prior to man. And it was good.
But rather than creating beings like he had already done with the mindset, or I use this loosely "programmed" to love Him, serve Him, etc. He decided to create man in His own image.

Man was to be able to think and reason for himself. Be in charge of himself as well the land God put him in. He created woman as companionship for man as well, a help mate if you will.

The two grew in the garden both physically and mentally. Then something happened... Given the choice, they chose to rebel against God to disobey Him. Thus creating and bringing into this life, sin.
Did God know this would happen? yes. Did he know this would inevitably bring about man in the future going to hell? yes.
So why did He allow it?
Because the first part of this post answers those questions.

Regardless of the consequences God wanted man to have the opportunity to make a decision to do right or wrong. To accept Him and serve Him or not. That, to God was far more important than the outcome of some of them going to hell.

He loves ALL. We know this because he sacrificed his own son in the most horrible of ways to make a way so that none of His people would have to face that punishment. Unfortunately though, because of their free will, much like Adam, there are those whom even after this great sacrifice do not believe, will not serve etc.

Again, did God know in advance this would happen? Yes. But the sacrifice, even for one was worth it. Just like in one post I read about a garden.
You plant a garden. You are fully aware of weeds and the destructive power they have. And although you might be very well sacrificing a few tomatoes you plant the garden anyway. The fruits and veggies you enjoy from your creation, are well worth the risk.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
ROFLMAO
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes.
  
  @ atom - I see what you mean now. Interesting.
  
  Call me a bad father if you will, but - I prefer to ensure that none of my children get "splattered." And I take the time to carefully introduce them to minor splatterings as they grow. That way they learn that they will get splattered - and it is not a good thing.
  
  I have found that shouting at them not to do something or they will get splattered does not work very well. It invariable ends up in them testing to see if they do indeed get splattered.
  
  But - I like your god's approach. It certainly weeds out the dross pretty quickly. Almost like evolution.
  
  I know - I am a bad father - making sure that there is no splatterings. Oh well - I guess that means I will burn in hell for all eternity.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what? or excuse me, huh??
  
  When did God "shout" anything? And um, ok, so you assert that you are a good father because you,
  A)"ensure" their safety? And how do you do that exactly? Because remember if you were, God,..oh boy help us all, but if you were, and you had the ability to let's say control the actions of everyone and everything to ensure that sort of safety, this would mean imposing that onto your own child as well. Controlling every aspect of their lives, minds and bodies etc. Is that what you would want for them or yourself?
  
  But I go on to finish my thought...
  
  B) You carefully introduce them to "minor splatterings" so that they will "learn that they can get splattered"? God does the same. I think having problems, minor splatterings here on earth is carefully introducing us to pain/suffering. And that if you picture a hell that He warns of, in which that pain and suffering is eternal, you might then consider that to be not such as you put it, a good thing. Thus as you have concluded with your own children, they would avoid the consequence.
  
  And in conclusion, whether you are or not a bad father does not dictate your eternity anywhere.
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
@ tantrum
I replied to your other post and you have no answers?
Well OK.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not giving you answers all the time, kid ! I can't be bothered! Think whatever you want. Be my guest. This is my last reply to you. Suit yourself , kid !!
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hummmm....OK
  Last time I checked you must have posted about 24 times "hey!!! why don't YOU answer ME...I asked YOU a question and I always answer YOUR questions....guess you don't have one eh? !!!"
  
  That is what you do Tantrum!
  
  I am not your kid.
  I have raised 3 and they are all out of the house and probably as old as you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now I am all confused. You act like a child, so - you mean you are not a child?
  
  Are you even old enough to have an account here? Is that why the dead dog guy went?
  
  You know you need to be over 18 right, kid?
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Here is a scenario:

You are born “like everyone else” and you grow up being taught just plain old right from wrong. (do not steal, lie, cheat, swindle etc.)
When you come of age (whatever that age might be, let's use 13-18) you start to do what you “know to be wrong” and you steal a boy's bike and take it for a joy ride and ruin it and then toss it off a cliff. Then you are caught because people and cameras saw you do it. You go before the judge and are reproved, made to work to earn money and buy the boy a new bike. It takes you 3 months to make enough money to do that. So the boy is without a bike for 3 months. You must also clean it for him once a week for 3 months.

You get bitter about all of this and say “I was just having fun riding the bike” or some other silly excuse.

So then you forget about the pain of it all and remember the fun you had and this time you steal a motorcycle. Same thing happens, you wreck and total the motorcycle. Taken to the judge and are ordered to make the money to buy another motorcycle and it takes you a year so they are without for that long. You again must clean it for a year.

But !!!~ you still find an extreme “rush” in stealing and the fun of it all and continue to advance in stealing and getting caught, but are taken before the judge (same judge) for the 5th time now for stealing and are put in jail because you are older now and the other corrective measures did not work with you because you loved the pleasure more than the pain. Sort of like the alcoholic.

You get out and are now 25 years old and resent what “has been done to YOU” because you were “just having fun and nobody got injured” (well at least physically). So you can't get a job because of your record, you are homeless with no money so you have to steal to eat. You sell some food to other homeless people who happen to have money made by begging and then you buy drugs with it and start selling them for profit and then you are caught after a long time doing this and your sale is a large enough quantity to send you away for a long time. Again, same judge, this time he reads your whole record and tells you he will make you a deal. 1,000 hours of community service and you can stay at “the farm” (like Disney-Jail) because you have no home as you have spent your drug selling profits on more “just having fun.” Judge tells you when you finish they will set you up with a job and you can stay on the farm until you make enough money to be on your own. You thank him profusely and off you go.

You start your community service but hate it because you feel like it's slave labor and working for free and say piss on all of this bull whammy and you run away from the farm.

You are caught and taken to the same judge and he tells you he tried to cut you some slack and not send you to prison but you rebelled again and so off you go to prison for the original 5 year sentence that you could have avoided.

So you do your time and get out and continue where you left off but this time you pick a old ladies house to rob and you know she is home because you watched her drive up. You wait until she goes to sleep. She surprises you during the act and you fight with her and kill her.

You are taken before the same judge who finds you guilty of murdering someone while committing a felony because you were armed and with your previous record sentences you to death (annihilation) and away you go. 5 years later you are executed.

Question for you.
How do you find the judge to be "evil" ?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is this judge the same guy who made sure the child was sexually abused by the priest that taught him right from wrong?
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  
  Judges do not run about the city controlling people.
  
  A sad answer from you too.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, God clearly provides instruction for how to live. Again, it's people who choose to do the things they do. For those who believe the Bible, it clearly states that evil/satan/devil is the god of this world thanks to Adam and Eve.
  
  The priests are not Godly men but are controlled by their own lust.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really - He does? Then why the disagreement between you? LOLOLOL
  
  What a pathetic belief system you have. I prefer to teach by example rather than threats. Oh well - I am sure your invisible super being knows best, and threats are better.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what? God does not teach through example?? first I have ever heard of that.
  Ever read the Bible?
  It starts out showing where we went wrong and gives thousands of examples of people who had consequences for their actions.
  
  But I suppose its better your way,
  you go out and get splattered by a car Mark to show your kids what happens when you do! lol
  please
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What a very christian response.
  
  How very loving of you..........
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  you said Mark not I
  You prefer to teach everything through example.
  
  I was simply demonstrating how absurd that is. You cannot possibly teach everything to everyone by example.
  
  If you did, you yourself would be a liar, a thief, a murderer and maybe even splatted under the wheels of someones car.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Glad to make you laugh! Next time you breathe, think of how it happens. To think it started due a big bang takes far more faith.
  
  God, does not provide His rules, if you will, out of promoting fear within us, but out of protection for us. What do parents tell their child about running in the road, "oh, Johnny, don't go in the road, it's not good for you." It's more like, "don't go in the road or you will be run over by a vehicle."
  
  But, hey, if people choose not to belive, it's their choice.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Demonstrating your ignorance of the process of transferring oxygen to your bloodstream is not really impressing me.
  
  "Don't go out into the road Johnny because I know you are going to be squashed and spend the rest of your life in wheelchair. I made sure the truck would be there, and neglected to teach you properly, but ......... Hey - I didn't make the rules of physics."
  
  It is all your fault for not listening to the moron with no education.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry that you're angry. Your twisting of my response is futile. Most parents do tell their children why they are not to run in the road, because they will get run over. Actually, science and the Bible go hand in hand, hut that's for another discussion or a hub.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Er, who would be the moron with no education???
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, Mark, what is your belief, sciecne only?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tell me about the dinosaurs first.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The book of Job mentions Behemoth, which was likey a dinasaur. The following is from Job 40:15–18
  
  "He eats grass like an ox. Behold now, his strength in his loins, And his power in the muscles of his belly. He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron."
  
  The Bible does not specifically mention dinasaurs but uses the word tanniyn. Translated, tanniym from Hebrew into English means sea monster or monster.
  
  Behemoth had a “tail like a cedar.” Any animal with a tail as huge and strong as a cedar tree is probably a dinosaur. Job 40:19–24 describes this giant, difficult-to-capture animal as not alarmed by a raging river. If the writer of Job knew of a dinosaur, then the evolution position is wrong, and man saw dinosaurs.
  
  They likely died out after the flood. Why? God told Noah to bring two of each kind and common sense dictated to take young animals due to space. Dinasaurs were hatched from eggs and likely did hatch. What possibly happened is that they couldn't survive after the flood just like humans couldn't. Before the flood humans survivde hundreds of years, whereas after the flood it was reduced immensly.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So they died because they were too big to enter the arc. And because they hatch, and they couldn't do that in the arc... Nice explanation !! Mark will love it
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I didn't say they were too big to enter the ark - you did. What I said is that common sense would dictate that due to the many animals and limited size of the ark, young animals were likely taken on board.
  
  Glad Mark will love it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
  
  Uneducated was the correct word then. I appreciate your candor.
  
  Science and religion - hand in hand.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Glad to ablige................... but, yes, they do. Hate to tell you this, but I am certified to teach science and I have done so............oops. So, I guess I do know my stuff .......
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  You are certified to teach? The dinosaurs likely died out after the flood? Crikey! I am shocked at your complete ignorance of science and obvious lack of education.
  
  Where on earth did you get certified to teach? I will complain to the local social services authority if you are teaching this garbage to any children that are not your own. (Legally you are allowed to abuse your own children in this way.)
  
  Wow ! I could tell you were uneducated, but I did not realize the depth of it. I see how you could think science and religion do hand in hand - seeing as you have apparently chosen to pretend that this is science.
  
  Have you ever even read any books other than your hate-filled holy book?
  
  If not here is some reading to get you on your way:
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/7572
  http://hubpages.com/hub/creation-v-evolution
  
  I wish you well in your educational journey. I also recommend a decent dictionary. Good luck.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I teach facts from the secular science book. I also know the law.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, what, no response to my dinosaurs?? You asked, where are you?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry that you are so upset at reality that you need to threaten people. I understand - life can be really scary sometime. If it makes you feel better - you go ahead and threaten your children with eternal pain for not listening to what you say.
  
  Oh - I mean what god tells you to say. Same thing.
  
  Sure science goes hand in hand. Explain the dinosaurs please.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Er, nowhere was I, or am I upset........... where did you get that from??????????? What happens if you don't turn in a project on time for your job - it's threatened or on the line. If we speed as we're driving, there is athreat of getting a ticket. Now, I'd love to know where there have never been any threats.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm confused was that comment they made to you BJC, in reference to God or you?
  I think it may have been directed at how they percieve God in "threatening" His children, but then,,why would they then talk about how scary the world is? etc.. I don't get it. lol
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is pretty amusing. If it was at me, that's fine - I can handle it. My agenda is to run for public office so that'll scare the pants off people - figurtively speaking that is.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL I'll vote for you!
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A BIG thanks!!! You can be my spokeswoman - you're very articulate!!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why thank you! I would love to do that!
  Sign me up girl!
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is no disagreement, just your perception.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very well put!
  I love the "Disney-Jail" thing! LOL
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Hey Mark !
If I create something good and something evil.
And I create something that is only life.

Which one do you pick?
Today, right now?

And you have to make this choice every single day.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow!
  Very good
  very very good
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @ Mark Knowles
  
  No answer Mark ?
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Mark:

Neither are you old enough to call me "kid"
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Kid - you sure you are old enough to have an account here?
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Hey Mark !

If I create something good and something evil.

And I create something that is only life.

Which one do you pick?

Today, right now?

And you have to make this choice every single day.
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sparksdaniel2000posted 14 years ago
i'd rather be sent to hell by the guy running the show, and not some underboss or supervisor or some other idiot...I want the call to come from the Almighty Himself.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen to that comment!!
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
“…I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith.’

For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them. For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools

and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man…
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness…For they changed the truth of God into a lie…they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind” (Romans 1:16-28).
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  More bible babble !!
  It seems you'll never find a snsible answer to this
  
  you know what's wrong with you people ? that you talk about God as if he has a face ,body ,arms ,legs... and souls likewise. Well, I don't think so !! You can't see god face to face, when you die, because you wouldn't have one. God can't speak to you because he hasn't got a mouth. Don't be so naive!! Wake up !! Can't you see that Death is another situation??!!! It Doesn't involve Life as we know it . Enough with Fairy Tales !! Grow up !! Or growing up is too scary for you???!!!!
  
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
One explanation regarding the flood and dinosaurs is they were extinct before the flood and therefore not on the ark.

Job was written before Genesis and so that the order the books are put together in are by no means chronological.

Personally I do believe they lived, not a big deal how they died, many, many, many species have come and gone, either by natural causes or killed off by mankind for money and sport.

None of this is on topic, so let's not get side tracked.
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Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago
So, let me see if I understand hell correctly. To keep from going there I simply ignore what my senses tell me, deny scientific facts, quote scripture, and look down on non believers and I can be just like you guys, right?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First, to keep from going there you need only do one thing: Believe in Christ as your saviour.
  
  If that means you ignore what your "senses" tell you, then I would have to say, yes.
  
  As to denying scientific facts: Science has yet to disprove the existance of God nor prove the theory of evolution. Just because there are some things which do evolve does mean that all creation started as a result of it.
  
  Next, quoting scripture will not save you, even the devil knows scripture
  
  and finally,
  we do not "look down" on non-believers. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Romans 3:23 and that includes us.
  
  To me a non-believer is just someone who like myself at one time, has not come to the knowledge or acceptance of Christ. that to me is sad. I feel it very sad that they choose to disbelieve in the God that created them. I feel a sadness too because I know that if they are caught up early or late in death without having that belief or acceptance what it is that they will face. That to me is very sad.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  atomswifey is correct. The problem is that too many Christians have behaved in an immoral or stupid way, thus making all Christians look the same. Actually, most of us are pretty well educated and have enough sense to realize it isn't about us.
  
  I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what came first, the chicken or the egg?
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey fairbear
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
The Creator created mankind in His own image and likeness and the image and likeness is what it is, just that.
It can speak, it can hear, it can move, it can think, it can see, it can touch, it can smell, it has these and many more abilities.

The Creator is able to do this and more. He need not be visible to do this.
No big deal.

Things that are invisible make sounds.
Wind.
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  badcompany99posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can see the wind you fool !
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What does the wind look like?
  
  I have a spirit that cannot be seen too.
  Man is not just a visible being.
  The Creator being invisible can make things that are visible that express His invisible attributes much like an artist or musicain creates what was not visible before.
  
  Angels cannot be seen either, until they manifest themselves.
  
  No big deal.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, you can't see the wind. What you see are the effects of the wind.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Drat, you beat me to it!
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Make Moneyposted 14 years ago
Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

You are wrong again Fairbear.

I'll just reply with a post from your last thread.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@bcj
None. this is not about chickens !! Is about 'common sense'. something maybe you don't know as you're above 'common people'!!
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  BJC, actually. However, if you have it all together and I apparently don't, then please enlighten me.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let's please refrain from insulting people as "fools". You're better than that.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not here to enlighten you. It would take much of my time and I'm no preacher. just a 'common person' with 'common sense'
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice to meet you. Glad you're not a preacher that would be scary
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You bet !! nice to meet you too !
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Well, seeing how every creature was created and then multiplied.
The chicken came first, then had eggs.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@ bcj said :I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Thi is not the 'cooking forum '
That's the only reply you will get for such a 'funny' question
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ya know, I do love to cook......... got a recipe to type after I come back from running, BUT, before that...........
  
  if we can't make an intellignet decision about what came firsr, the chicken or the egg, then how do we propose there is no God.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God creates earth
  God creates chicken
  God creates man
  Man creates KFC
  God creates hell
  man goes to hell
  Chickens rule the earth!
  
  LOL sorry coudn't resist
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A point 4 u in this 1 !!
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now, that is funny!! Go Girl
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Real simple:
I say, here is a fire Bobby, do NOT TOUCH THE FIRE or you will get burnt!!!...
Bobby touches fire, gets burnt !
Bobby likes the fire and plays with it again !!
Bobby one day starts a fire and kills himself !!!

Not my fault at all.

Cop says. Here is the speed limit, do not go over it or you will get a ticket. I go over it and get said ticket. Not the cops fault.

Many bleeding hearts will disagree.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great example. But, ya know, some people choose not to believe and that is their choice.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Saying your wrong is saying the bible is wrong? That's a screamer! Of course you're wrong then.
Funny to see you fighting over who is right about a sky fairy.

"My delusion is better than yours"
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Baby, no-one is fighting. Sorry, if you read something incorrect it was likely a typo............
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah just come in earnest and twist the meaning of that. The Bible clearly speaks of hell, and the consequence of people being sent there, that is where I draw my belief of it from. When she said that I was wrong in believing in its existance, or that God sends people there, she was then saying the Bible to be wrong in that sense as well.
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purpleveilposted 14 years ago
One thing Everyone seems to forget is that God created the world, ad heaven, and everything we have is not ours, but His. I always believed that hell is just not being allowed to go to heaven where all the good stuff is, but it is God's heaven. We do not own it, and we have no right to it at all. Our life is a gift, a priveledge, not a right. Do you not feel that you should be allowed to decide who comes into your house? Do you not decide what behaviors are acceptable for your guests, or do you let just any old body into your house? If you can do that why can't God? You have the free will to do what you want, but you also have to take responsibility for what you do. Heaven is God's house, and if you want in, you know what you have to do. And even if He is the one says no, what right do you have to be angry about that?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And who created god again?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think that maybe this life is suposed to teaches us how to like it when we get there. It's goina get some getin used to to like it! I gotta get used to gettin along without dancing girls and a pool table in heaven unless there are sume in THA back room.
  Seriously though, most Christians that I know including my self may not like it up there because of our addictions, they say that there are no fixes up there. The spirit of God is the only fix, wouldn't that be nice????
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kaybumposted 14 years ago
God is loving and he cares for everyone,but our ways of life is what he does not want.God uses so many things to rebuke us has his children but he does not want anybody to go to hell that is why he came into the world to die for our sins.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see! And are these the words of your "loving" god?
  
  "You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their father's wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation" (Exodus 20:4-5 NAB)
  What a totally neurotic statement!
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well man, you can go ahead and carve idols for yourself in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth and then bow down and worship them if you wish.
  
  Have the entire family join you too, right in the front yard !!!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!
  you so funny
  I can just picture that. But really I think God was only right to say that. Call me whatever but I do.
  I just fail to see where in that, it makes Him any less loving. So He punishes down to the third and fourth generations people who hate Him and worship other gods. Which actually, He doesn't as Christ broke all those generational curses, but how does that serve as a sign of his lack of love for them?
  He could have just "smote" them! LOL
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EdG.posted 14 years ago
These forums always take things too far, the simple fact is that (if we assume that Christianity is true) God sends people to hell. He's judge, jury, and executioner. He puts the sinners and heretics down there himself and he creates humans who he sees in the future as residents of Hell (he is all-knowing remember).

Furthermore, if you believe this is a just punishment then you are a sick individual. How can crimes on earth which are finite in their nature and damage be punished with an infinite consequence? It literally doesn't add up!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You like some others are basing this punishment according to your beliefs that God if He does exist should judge according to the degree of sin. You think it not just of Him to damn people to hell for an eternity for what YOU think to be minor infractions on earth or infractions which you construed to be finite in nature/damage.
  
  But again you are not seeing that God does not view sin as minor or finite. The sins of man are carried with him as long as they remain ON him. Only when we are "washed clean" through the acceptance and belief in Christ are those sins removed.
  So there you can see where your "finite" crimes are not so finite afterall. And as far as the "damage" they cause: I think sin has done quite a lot of damage, yes even enough to warrant an eternal punishment.
  Too,
  He does not distinguish one sin from another as we do with mans laws. To God, You are just as guilty as I or anyone else, and I do mean, ANYONE else is. Really in that sense, everyone who came after Adam and including Adam should go to hell. But God loving us so much, offered forgiveness and redemption so that the consequence of hell does not have to become a reality for anyone. He offered His son as a sacrifice for mans sins. Acceptance of Him washes the sinner clean. He therefor now is clean and reborn, not guilty, pure.
  
  But man still to this day refuses to believe and remains defiant of Gods laws. So, he remains guilty. The thought to some of having to submit to God, to turn away from the sins of the flesh are too much to ask,(he or she thinks) and so, regardless of the consequences to that way of living, chooses to sin/disbelieve and inevitably will if he/she dies in that sin, face that consequence.
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  EdG.posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I do find your ridiculous dogma ever so amusing. Still, it is a blight upon humanity and I would much rather forgo my amusement in favor of a world free of such asinine and petty beliefs. The fact is, "God" (i.e. religious humans claiming to speak for God) rules through fear. Hell is merely a fabricated instrument of terror to keep the coffers full and the masses obedient. The concept of natural sin is exactly the same since it also leads to Hell.
  
  The universe is a big place and if you're conceited enough to believe that the omnipotent creator of the universe personally judges individual organisms of your species on a single planet, that's fine. I really don't care. But if you are ok with the idea of any of your fellow humans being subjected to his torment then I have no respect for you whatsoever. I know that doesn't really matter to you but in the future ,just know that it would be appreciated if you would keep your childish scare tactics to yourself.
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  mealdatesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If an animal is sick, people go and visit a vet.
  If you're ill, you might go to see a doctor.
  If you have got emotional questions, who would you ask?
  If you were mentally ill who would you want to help?
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
I both know Him and beleive in Him.
Not because I learned it from a book either.
Like I told you, He appeared to me.
Not a problem. Cannot deny it.
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
@ fairbear

You said God is evil.
Yet you never answered my post at the top of page 3 ???
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
If you cannot see that is not less loving, then I can only assume you cannot read.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You did not read the part about God rewarding goodness up to the seventh generation.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He knows it is there....he just leaves stuff like that out to find fault is all.
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
earnest, i thought you for sure would reply here

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/20502
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
So you can't think either? Poor sock puppet!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
I think just fine.
I think in this realm.
I think outside of this realm.
Outside of time. Space. Motion.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All I see is ninth rate thinking from a second class mind!
  Just like all the other religious sock puppets!
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Fairbearposted 14 years ago
Shaul Stein: In response to your question at the top of page three.

I do not find the judge in your story to be evil.

I will assume, due to the topic of this thread, that your story is supposed to be an allegory in which the judge is God and the recidivist criminal is mankind. Am I right?

But I will respond to your story the same as I've responded to the many other stories I've heard that express the same point. Everyone else who has posted to this thread in defense of Christianity has used the same essential tactic that your story uses. Just like my original post describes, you are using a free will argument to try to take the edge off your God throwing people into the fires of Hell. But nothing you say can eradicate the facts. Your God sends people to Hell. It is His will to do so. And it is evil.

If that judge in your story, after the criminal murdered the old woman, threw the criminal into a torture chamber that specialized in prolonging the lives of its subjects while administering the most heinous torture techniques imaginable. And if that torture chamber, by the judges orders, managed to keep the criminal alive for twenty more years, all the while torturing him without relief for even a second-- if the judge did all that to the criminal he would indeed be evil. But that's just my opinion. You might think that to be a fitting punishment for the criminal. However, the American government would call it cruel and unusual punishment, which is why such things do not go on here (legally).

But even so, Hell is billions of times worse than that fabled twenty years of torture. Hell is never ending, and I don't feel the need to go into a description of Hell, as I'm sure you know the details. Now for the sake of this post, I'll go ahead and give a little. I'll say that people like this criminal, and people like Hitler and Saddam and Bundy and Manson, you know, really bad people, deserve eternity in Hell. I don't really believe that, but I'll give you that for the time being. Anyway, I'm not talking about those really bad people. They have obviously done things that deserve something. The people I'm talking about are ordinary, law-abiding citizens of their countries, who treat others with kindness, never hurt anyone, and do their best to be good people their entire lives, but happen to be Muslim, or Buddhist, or atheist, or Scientologist, or Jewish, etc. etc. etc. --anything but Christian.

Do you get the picture of the kind of person I'm talking about? This isn't at all the character in your story.

What I'm saying, what my heart cries out against your religion, what nothing will ever convince me against, is that a God who sends those people to Hell just for not believing in Jesus is evil evil evil. There is no way for you to cover that up, disguise it, put makeup on it, reason it away, or deny it.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, for perhaps the 10th time?
  
  I said people that cannot or will not be corrected are then annihilated and cease to exist!!!
  No need to torture them endlessly.
  So stop saying stuff I did not say.
  He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, understand?
  I never said the man in question gets sent to hell, I said he is annihilated totally and remembered NO MORE.
  
  If we had 10 men running around ruthlessly murdering people, we would annihilate them all and for good reason. No torture needed !
  
  God will judge each one according to conscience. He is righteous in judgment, not some stupid mindless torturous idiot.
  If you are worthy of annihilation, then so be it, you no longer are existing and blotted out as if you never were.
  You do not torture a cancer, you destroy it.
  
  You also seem to think I think like a typical believer do you?
  
  anyone want to read the post I made
  http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332264
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  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, this casts a whole new light on you, Shaul. Perhaps I failed to read it in a previous post. This is the first clear statement I've read from you that describes your beliefs as they differ from mainstream Christianity. So, you don't believe in eternal damnation in Hell. You simply believe that bad people are blotted out of existence. I'm sorry I didn't catch that before now. In that case, this thread isn't even directed at you.
  
  But in this new light I find it very peculiar that you have been arguing with me. That's the whole reason I have assumed that you believe in eternal damnation in Hell. You gave all the signs that you were defending the viewpoint that I am prosecuting. Now it it looks like you were only chiming in with your alternate definition of Hell and Punishment. Well, OK. Thanks for letting us know what you believe. I have no problem with that belief. Nothing evil about it.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pretty sure that all throughout the scriptures exists a pattern of offering correction numerous times over and over, and if it rejected, then the people reach the point of being incorrigible and are thus annihilated from existence. If, on the other hand correction is offered and they changed their minds, the pain was lifted and correction was in place. It was always a choice of the people. No place that I can recall are people endlessly tormented or tortured without purpose, they are either correctable or they are not. The word went out to all, not all responded. No favorites either, judgment fell upon Israel and anyone else who practiced lawless, total anarchy and idol worship that included setting their children upon Molech, a metal idol heated to about 1,000 degrees as you know. No need to keep such people alive at all, agreed? Also people engaging is shrine temple prostitution both male and female. Also the worship of fertility goddesses etc. Not good stuff. Not for any people.
  
  Molech then and now. Interesting read no matter who you are. http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_molech.htm
  
  Children being offered to Molech
  
  Here are the posts I have made and mention correction and or annihilation in them throughout this thread so I have no idea how they could have been overlooked at all. Nothing has been hidden. I have not been arguing with you over "hell". I think you missed where I was coming from because your in the middle of an argument here in the thread. Read them again with the “new view” in mind and see if you get what I said a bit better. And the whole “thanks for letting us know what you believe.”......maybe if you read it without trying to pay attention to your own argument it would have been clear?
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/post/331944
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332035
  (mentioned here where I inserted comments inside yours)
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332060
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/post/332264
  (one on the judge and incorrigible man)
  
  I do believe we are accountable for our actions here on earth where we are often to be “found out” and then if we correct out behavior and make amends to the people we wronged, then our account is current. If we have “gotten away” with anything and or covered up wrong doing, we will answer for that to The Judge who misses nothing, not even a sparrow falling to the ground.
  
  Getting away with things is a mere illusion.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like yourself Shaul, some communities no longer acknowledge the reality of an everlasting hell. But it is still in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and the New.
  
  Judith 16:17 "Let all thy creatures serve thee: because thou hast spoken, and they were made: thou didst send forth thy spirit, and they were created, and there is no one that can resist thy voice."
  
  Isaias 33:14 "The sinners in Sion are afraid, trembling hath seized upon the hypocrites. Which of you can dwell with devouring fire? which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
  
  Isaias 66:24 "And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh."
  
  Jeremias 15:14 "And I will bring thy enemies out of a land, which thou knowest not: for a fire is kindled in my rage, it shall burn upon you."
  
  Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
  
  Matthew 25:41 "Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."
  
  Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."
  
  Mark 9:47-48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. For every one shall be salted with fire: and every victim shall be salted with salt."
  
  Luke 3:17 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
  
  2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 "Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:"
  
  Jude 1:6-7 "And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire."
  
  Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name."
  
  Revelation 20:10 "And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
  
  The angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that "destruction" does not mean "annihilation," as some teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.
  
  Jesus Christ's first coming was to bring mercy, His second coming will bring judgment.
  
  Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell, they do it themselves.
  
  You are right Shaul, Jesus Christ did not come to start a new religion. There is a seamless transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. "Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7) "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus: that we may receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." (Galatians 3:14)
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok one more time:
  
  Man fell from grace thus bringing sin into the world.
  
  Every person from that point forward was "born into sin" They were covered in sin essentially.
  
  God is righteous as is his kingdom
  He detests sin, hates it
  
  God was willing to forgive man of his sins but it for man was a road very hard to travel. Back in the days of the Old Testament people sacrificed animals in a way to wash away their sins, namely lambs, as they were considered to be "clean" and pure.
  
  But man still chose to be defiant and sin and lawlessness were abundant.
  
  God then decided that He would make a way for all mankind to recieve forgiveness and be washed clean. He wanted to reconcile Himself with man.
  
  Jesus was that sacrifice.
  
  Now you may think that most people are good, but by whose standards? Mans?
  God does not see man as good or right until he recieves that forgiveness that only comes from belief in His son.Once again up there you seperated the "good" people from people like Saddam, Manson etc. But it is like I said,
  
  There are no degrees of sin. Sin is sin. And ALL sin to God is detestable. All sin. The sin we are born into and the sin we carry with us until, we ask and believe. Only in that acceptance do we gain our freedom from the bondage of that sin.
  
  Now the Bible is clear that babies/children are free from accountability due to their age, they are not yet at the age of accountability (adult).
  
  Ok, so having said all that.
  God is righteous. He demands, yes demands that no sin may enter heaven. No sin, none. So in that, having been born into sin and guilty of sin, you are covered in sin. And no sin can enter into heaven.
  
  God was so serious about this, so very strict about this that He presented a punishment so severe that the thought of it would then deter people from willingly disbelieving, doubting or otherwise sinning.
  
  which of course has happened. However there are those like yourself who think He is evil for doing so etc. And have chosen even still to be defiant.
  
  Now again I go back to Jesus.
  He was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.
  When Jesus came to be even the pharisees,(those considered to be a holy majority and authority on the subject of God), rejected him. They much like you, could not wrap their minds around the fact that after years of sacrificing animals, and obeying the laws of God, that He was their messiah. Sent there to free them from their bondage in sin, they could not wrap their minds around the fact they needed to be free from that bondage since they were soooo good, such "good" people, such holy people.
  
  so Jesus was executed. He was tortured and hung on that cross and all of this was to secure a place in Heaven for people. To make a way for people to be forgiven to have a pardon.
  
  Now, you say it is evil for God to punish people with an eternity in hell for simply not believing in Jesus.
  But, if you do not believe in Jesus, you cannot recieve forgiveness and be washed clean.
  If you cannot be washed clean, you are not pure.
  If you are not pure,
  you cannot enter heaven.
  And where does God say you will go if not to heaven?
  hell.
  
  It is what it is. God said it, He designed it, He set the rules, made the laws, gave the consequences.
  Believe it or not, like it or not
  doesn't matter.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
That is a fare sized lump of good thinking in my view fairbear
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
What if Hell is not so much a deliberately inflicted punishment so much as the natural consequence of a lifetime of sin for which atonement was never made?

If you swim at a public pool, you break the rules, end up in some kind of distress while swimming, and you refuse all rescue attempts, death or injury is a natural consequence. Are the people who operate the pool, make the rules, and, oh yes, hire properly qualified lifeguards evil if, despite their best efforts, someone dies as a result of breaking the rules?

Are they evil for even building a swimming pool in the first place, knowing that some people will break the rules and might die as a natural result?

John 3:16-17 refers to Jesus coming into the world to save people rather than to condemn.
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
What is worth keeping will be kept.

What is not will be utterly and totally annihilated.

Just like you would if you had to pick what you wanted out of your house and the rest was left for the coming fire to destroy.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Yeh, watch out for this god guy, he is not just your regular homicidal maniac!

"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

Worship this? It is to laugh!
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes that is The Creator, He created it and can destroy it and answers to NOBODY for it either. Doing evil gets you what you have coming.
  Do you even know what the worship of Molech was?
  
  Putting your children on a metal idol heated to over 1000 degrees!!!
  
  Annihilation works very efficiently Earnest.
  When one goes to war, annihilation is the best tactic, that way none of those people ever come back to make war again.
  
  Exodus 3:15
  י ה ו ה is a man of war. י ה ו ה is His name.
  
  And your point is?
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
God, Heaven, The Good News.

Are NOT....."ALL INCLUSIVE"

You are chosen or you are NOT !

God does not answer to anyone for who He choses anymore than you answer for who you chose to marry.

Imagine someone trying to "TELL YOU" who to pick.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Tell you what sock puppet, your statement indicts both of you! Who are you hiding from this week?
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I made my point sock puppet, it;s just that you have to see everything though your religiosity, I understand, you are a weak person who likes to feel powerful.
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chukra Gposted 14 years ago
He created the ability for you to put yourself in hell or heaven. God did not betray you
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
Shiyloh says:
Love overcomes all things including death.
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  chukra Gposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it is true but the matter is what kind of love.
  even history will fade, where your love going to survive.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh says:
  History cannot change love, love remains love,
  Love needs no defense and nothing can defend against love.
  Only one kind of love remains.
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  chukra Gposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  find the truth, there you will find the love that you mentioned. dont expect it here
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh says:
  Love is truth and has not come here to find anything.
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  chukra Gposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it came to find you my friend and it will always knocking you from within, give a hug to it.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh says:
  What is "it" ?
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  chukra Gposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  life
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh says:
  Love is life, light, and truth.
  Love is the source of life.
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  chukra Gposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no-- life is love
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh says:
  Love creates life.
  Husband and wife in love create a life.
  Without love one has no life.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agree to that amen.. tks
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh says:
  Order is important.
  The author of love created life.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
This post has all the same things as the last one. It is assumptive, condescending and denies most of the world their basic human rights, apart from that it is lovely!
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Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

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