I just posted a hub arguing that science is not trumping God, but science is finding out God's intricacies.
If God invented Science, doesn't that make him the Ultimate Scientist?
Science is truth, and God is truth. With our scientific advances are we not just proving what God already knew?
Truth, however found, is of God. God is truth and no matter how we find truth, it is from God.
This is very nice and yes I say god is the ultimate scientist and mathematician and we are discovering what is already there and not inventing something new.
The Vedas te oldest spiritual text means science.
"Please note that advertising and promotional posts in the forums will be deleted and may result in the closing of your HubPages account. Do not start threads for the sole purpose of promotion or posting links."
You are so right yet lives are conrtroled by the teachings of religious books not God Jesus truth of birth I completely aggree
is God a scientist ?? Yes he is ! I think this question resolves everything relative to Creation. !! God is a scientist that went berserk. That's why the world is as it is !!
God just sits and watch. He knows what will happen. He isn't "human" and is a higher being a being beyond human imagination and human understanding.
Much like a human predicts an ants behavior, observing, experimenting. Whether its humorous or not for the human, the ant wouldn't know. He can do anything and whatever he does, its not of our understanding. Don't you just hate it when somebody knows what you are doing and he has the power to change it but doesn't do anything and worst of all just laughs at you? Human inferiority, feebleness. Humans aren't that great.
God is something/someone that is out of our understanding. Or do you believe that Humans are the end of the hierarchy of higher existence? Well, imo... probably.
who knows. you, me, no one?
the ant doesn't know the human could laugh. do you know if god could laugh?
Well, yes but the ant was NOT created in mans image.
Man was however created in God's.
We have the same sort of characteristics I suppose God does. God created our sense of humor, so why would He not himself laugh at times, just like we do.
Jesus who was God in the flesh had a pretty good sense of humor. One of my favorite passages in the Bible is where Jesus says the following:
"Pull the plank out your own eye before you try to pull the splinter from someone elses".
I think that was pretty funny.
Oh I dont know, this is easy enough to understand.
Seek the LORD, that you may live, lest he come upon the house of Joseph like a fire That shall consume, with none to quench it for the house of Israel. (Amos 5:6 NAB) Is this the little neurotic chap speaking?
Now god is off to kill the non believers as above. Is that part of your belief too?
Quantum theory - there is order in what seems to be chaos.
Maybe there were too many wannabee (scientists) in the lab too
back to my little "theory" that caused sooo much trouble...so God does exist. Hes some punk and hes not really a big god yet, maybe hes got a jerky older brother, his dad works alot of hours, Zeus or somebody....so he makes this earth and all, hes thinking...ha ha ha!!!!! Ill make em kinda like me, so we can get along, but not quite...so I can be in charge for once!! Ill make em all gullable and belive everythign I say, then write this book and not tell them all of it.I will say I am the only one, and if they do this and this and this they will get all kinds of treats, but if not!!! watch out!!! They will never find out and worship the heck out of me!!!
then he looses interest and there you go
(so I made that up when I was like, 7...dont yell at me ...)
Doesn't it sound like some people here in this forum ?
No the biblical god (is there any other? ) is not a scientist.
He does not even understand that he is a bi-polar, psychotic little sociopath yet, despite issuing many of the worlds most threatening and loony statements!
No deep understanding of splicing genome to fix all the screw ups in it from this god. Devils work! they scream in fear.(Hang on, now that does sound a bit like god's work!) No knowledge of carbon dating here, just a whole bunch of people running around burying bones and then claiming they are older than earth by a few million years according to the fundies!
That is assuming that the Biblical God is a Biblical literalist and a young-earth creationist, that God created disease that Christians believe actually resulted from human rather than divine screw-ups, and that human psychoanalysis can even be applied to a deity.
By the way, if I tell my children, "If you stick your fingers in a power outlet, you could be electrocuted," is that a threat or a mere statement of fact?
I did read that, but if the link is internal (from what I understand) it is kosher. If I am in violation, I'll erase it immediately. I'm here to follow the rules.
You did read that but because you are another religious fanatic you decided it did not apply to you and "interpreted" it to mean that it was OK if you started a promotional thread?
Thanks for clearing that up.
Of course it applies to you - this is a promotional thread specifically written to ask people to read a hub about your irrational beliefs.
Just imagine what the forums would look like if everyone did that.
I see nothing wrong with accepting only that which is true. Seems to make too much sense to have a belief in reality. However I have searched and found my answers cannot be denied by anyone. No one knows better than me what I know.
That being said, I am an avid believer in science. I believe truth can be found wherever knowledge is attained.
Any medium to find answers can be enlightened by revelation. We all experience it. When you read, experience, or study, do you not learn?
Truth, however attained, is revelation. Including science. (I see it more and more evident as I study quantum physics)
I'm glad you're here! I love the discussion.
p.s. After reviewing the rules, I have edited all my posts to get rid of my links to the hub I mentioned. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'm new, and I'm 'learning as I go'.
i thought this (from your hub) was really thoughtful:
Someone once told me 'If God wanted us to fly, he'd have given us wings!' To which I replied: 'He did. It's called the desire to fly, and a brain to figure it out.'
p.s. i have seen other hubbers post links to their hubs in these forums, so you are not the only one - don't feel bad.
Here we go then, read the science. No need to read it if you dont want to, I would not expect an answer in less than a week, I have read all of it, a lot of data.
I read the hub in question. It contains some astonishing statements, e.g.
"When the light beam emerged through to the other side, the light expanded to its normal wave length again of 2 miles and resumed its normal speed".
What sort of light has a wavelength of 2 miles?? The wavelengths that form the visible spectrum are in the range 400 to 700 nanometers (approx). A wavelength of 2 miles is a radio wave of approximately 100 kHz, even lower than the lowest frequency in the Long Wave band.
To be more specific, the light beam that was shone was just lasted long enough to be 2 miles long. It was a mis-statement to say it was the 'wave length' as it was the 'total length' of the beam of light itself. Thank you for your edit, I'll clarify that in the hub.
I believe that very soon mankind will realize the moral need to recognize the machine is at fault and repair it, despite the fundamentalists screaming abuse and dragging on their lab coats the ugly neural metabolic pathways will be inhibited or eliminated in time.
Truth is truth no matter how you find it. God has many avenues.
Is God a scientist?
I think God is an insurance agent. He started out in life insurance but picked up his life and health license, and then his property and casualty licenses not long after that.
The premiums are expensive. If you try to collect on a claim, you can be canceled but more often the claim will just be denied and your premiums will increase dramatically. (Pray more! Pray harder!)
I don't know if he wears polyester leisure suits but like a lot of insurance agents he no longer makes house calls and you do have to call an 800 number or go online for service.
Some people are currently trying to get the U.S. government to require God's insurance plans as a condition of citizenry.
Hahaha, don't worry, we'll be quiet about sneaking up on you.
If god is a scientist it is a lousy one!
Human DNA is a mess, and will be rebuilt soon, not by any sky fairy, but by real science.
The god thing is ridiculous when you start to look at DNA. Who made god?
Man is a mess, his body dies because his DNA wants to survive as it is. He kills and hates because of the The mistakes in his DNA which is what kills us. Nothing to do with any deity.
Darkness cannot exist when light exists, also, you cannot withstand the presence of God when you're imperfect. If the ultimate goal is to be like God, and as mortals we are imperfect.
God is revealing to us how we can be perfect and be with him for eternity, (DNA will last forever once we figure it out and make us 'perfect')
No god has revealed anything. The bible (the only source of all this crud apart from the quoran) which is near identical is a hotch potch of previous beliefs in other gods that came before the bible was written by some very sexist hateful men.
When truth is found, it's revealed.
When someone experiments and finds an outcome, is the new conclusion not new knowledge? Is this not revelation?
Is the actual truth not revealed through this experimentation? If not, where was it before?
You are right it is a revelation, and the truth is revealed in knowledge of our DNA.
The other thing that is blatantly clear is that the sequences do not point to creation.
What if God 'created' using evolution? If evolution is truth, it is from God. At one time things didn't exist, and now they do.
Evolution is not the only way of creation. There are so many scientific processes that come together to create the science of life.
If you read Carl Gustav Jung you will discover that religiosity is hardwired. The trick is to educate self so that it is better understood, thus placing religion in the role of yet another problem of the mind's understanding instead of rushing blindly in to one of thousands of religions, then making the illogical assumption that you have chosen the right one! I know the bible from cover to cover, and the Quoran just as well. both promote hate, rape, incest. murder. torture. permanent torture that passes all time, mass murder and the death of those who do not believe what is written in these hateful examples of the human condition. No sick little psychopathic sky fairy for me!
If you really knew the Bible cover to cover, including taking it in context as a whole and in the proper contexts appropriate for the various kinds of literature involved, you would know that the Bible never promoted rape, is antithetical to hate, includes prohibitions on incest, and has a commandment against murder.
As for permanent torture, separation from God is torture enough, yet many people think they'd be actually content with that.
And if you want to be taken seriously as an intelligent debater, please stop referring to God as a "sky fairy." Christians don't believe in "sky fairies" either.
As for Jung, religion may be hardwired into people for a reason. It's only your assumption that it's a problem that needs any overcoming.
Try taking a look at who's calling others sock puppets and belittling other people's most cherished beliefs by calling their deity a "sky fairy." Overcome that problem, and then you will be in a better moral position to accuse the rest of us of promoting hate.
My definition of a sock puppet is a sock puppet. Someone who had no identity displayed who gets chucked off the Forum for abuse and hate, changes identities, re-enter the debate spreading hate. Watch the post, the list of intolerances will grow to be what they were before and the sock puppet will get heaved again. Religiosity is hardwired to the part of our brain that makes it's decisions in a very basic way. Fight or flight. No need for religion, we just need to see what the urge is about.
What difference does it make to you what anyone thinks of your beliefs?
And as I keep telling you - if you don't want people to laugh at your beliefs - you shouldn't have such funny beliefs.
And these guys are sock puppets. They have been banned from the forums and have started a new identity just to dump reams of religious clap trap.
Just exactly what is wrong with being truthful and saying so?
Love is perfect.
Love is not the invention of any man.
Shyloh, who gives a sh*t about your quotes on love. All you do is copy line by line from your profile. Your comments are annoying and bloody obvious to all. No need to go on with the "perfect solution to everything," unless you are trying to bore people to death!
Earnest, the things love has written here have merely become a hub.
All of the statements are from what I have learned from love through experience sir. Do you find fault with love sir?
Love has been sincere here and I am simply not speaking about myself but about love.
If this offends you, then it does sir.
Love has not been disrespectful here sir.
I think it is offensive in it's constant insistence on being the answer to all, when love is subject to all of the human condition it is a simplistic throw away line, not the meaning of life!
I am a big believer in love too, but your posts are becoming a silly interference in thought and process, not the solution to the worlds problems.
Love is not subject.
Love is not dictated to by this present realm.
Love cannot be shaken by circumstances Earnest.
Love is not an emotion or feeling
Love is an action, acting and moving in love at all times, only motivated to love.
Love is the answer Earnest, not selfish love Earnest, real love.
So you do not know why there is no love?
Do you assume that all people have no love?
Do people both need love and then reject love when it is offered to them?
Because they are afraid to love and be loved by love, real love Earnest?
Love that can be yielded to and become one with.
It fills your entire being Earnest. It is greater than a mothers love.
I am not talking about what you "know" in your head about love sir.
You say you are a "big believer in love"?
Believing in love and acting in love are NOT the same thing Earnest.
Everything you do must be done in love or it is useless and selfish.
My friend tantrum says
do you want me to hate you ?
do you want me to hate love ?
Are you boring me to death ?
Am I fed up ?
! But I can care less !
You are nothing
and of course you are not love
if you were , you wouldn't be bothering us with your silly discourse
I agree love is a doing thing, which is my point! If you read my hubs you would know what I think about love. i know love very well, my life is full of it, and I do not like what religion does with it.!
Religion is not love Earnest.
Love is pure love and not an invention of men.
I am speaking of love only Earnest.
a very selfish love it seems! Very human and imperfect coming from you !
And how so sir?
What has been selfish of love here?
As I said, I am not speaking of me, but rather of love.
You don't care about anyone, you lack respect for us. We've told you to stop with your crazy remarks, but as you don't love us ,you still go on and on ....
You speak freely here sir.
Can love speak as freely too?
Why would you try to censor someone speaking only about love sir?
Love cares about everyone sir.
Love does not try to tell you to stop talking sir.
Love has made no attack on you sir.
Made no threats.
I speak freely because I'm free. Just like you. But you're bothering me. So, if you love me as you say, won't you stop ?
I am with tantrum here , please stop chatting with me as well as you are very irritating.
I agree, I think we got a little off topic. I'd like to go back to it if possible. Essentially we're discussing the workings of God through science and not disproving God with science, but learning more about how he works, since he is the Ultimate Scientist.
Love can appear to be irritating to one who says he is a master, enlightened, god, christ, poet, that he is the light, etc...and speaks of his many accomplishments time and again, announcing what he has done, speaking of how he ranks over this and that and the other, reminding people of who "HE" is because of all of these things.
If ones words had power, one would not boast of itself.
Love speaks not of it's own accord says one of your masters, does not draw attention to himself to be heard said another, does not boast said another.
When love sees this going on with someone who says they are a master, love then, being the master of all, must then in love and concern offer to point this out in order to share with a master the greater way of love.
And a master is never above learning from love. If the master thinks otherwise, he ceases to be a master that very moment sir.
Love will now honor your request sir.
I teach god is love and I am a nice person but grandmasters who believe they need to teach someone ranked over Bibles and Qurans do irritate me as it shows a foolish ego on their path.
Who do they think they are? what do you think of yourself?
Its called qualifications on the subject God.
Love was asked not to speak to you sir, so it is wondering why you continue sir?
Love is not a rank, nor looks to titles of grandmasters and it rejects the sarcastic use of the term sir. Love is sincere and if you think love to be a grandmaster, then why do you talk back sir?
"do irritate me as it shows....... " Love is not irritated.
"Who do they think they are?"
I am a nobody sir. I yield to love, the wisdom of love, not myself.
"what do you think of yourself??
I think nothing of myself, that path is darkness and leads away from love.
A vessel full of self cannot receive love.
Give what you have in your cup and when your cup is empty, then give your cup.
Enough said sir.
So you are saying you are not religious? With no profile detail it is hard to tell. I would think you are a religionists based on that.
Does one need to draw attention to oneself in a "profile"?
I have no title, rank or label sir.
I am not speaking of me, only love.
Why find fault sir?
I take no religion for a title or label sir.
The whole idea of hubpages is to have a profile, write articles and be seen. Are you someones sock puppet Sir?
What is this sir? "sock puppet?"
I have written 4 hubs in 6 days sir and have many good comments and 7 fans sir.
Love needs no defense here.
Love needs no defense here- but that's what you are doing .
Sir you asked that we chat no more and I replied and will not chat with you after this.
I gave Earnest the information for his understanding, he at the time did not understand love to be sincere sir.
He asked an honest question that I answered in love sir.
I do not know this sock puppet term. So I asked.
Love offered no defense, just gave the man the information he requested.
You do realize you are contradicting yourself, you have mentioned I have written 4 hubs in 6 days sir and have many good comments and 7 fans sir.Think please, your intentions may be good but your way is not.
The term sock puppet refers to people who hide their identity behind another identity.
There is something weird about not knowing anything about someone who posts like this.
I don't see anything weird. Only some crazy alter ego
Love lives within me, but I myself am not love.
God is not a scientist because god does not exist.
You were told god exists as a child and thats hard to shake, what, with all the 'evidence' about the power of god.
Some people have as much trouble grasping the possibility there is no higher power as they do trying to comprehend the concept of infinity.
There does not HAVE to be anyone creating the world.
I shall finish with the most famous quote from my religious text......
That sums up life, the universe, everything
Love is a rose, so beautiful to behold, so painful to be careless with.
I would never expect to be taken in anyway by religionists.
No mental capacity to look at anything except through their biblical interpretations.
Some bible rape, hate incest and mass murder.
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
You can selectively read or interpret this or the hundreds of other intolerant psych trash any way you like, it is still hateful, full of loathing and psychologically naive. .
You really do love the OT, don't you.
Trouble is, none of this kind of thing is found in the new. The era in which we (well maybe not you) live. It has things like turn the other cheek, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, and the like.
You just don't like to quote this kind of stuff,'cause it doesn't suit your purpose.
I see. It's your book not mine, but if you prefer the NT here ya go!
Matt.5.43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
Matt.6.24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
Matt.10.22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matt.24.9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Matt.24.10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
Mark.13.13 And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
So what is this? Is this love speaking? Or the words of a megalomaniac?
You have just shot yourself in the foot. These verses were spoken to the believer about what they (we) should expect and endure from the UNBELIEVERs. Looks like it's pretty spot on.
Matt. 5;43, you should read the next verse, BTW. The statement does not end. There is a conjunction to the very next thought.
Here's the deal dj -
I have never once seen you "turn the other cheek." Not once. I have seen you start numerous threads with the intention of starting a fight though.
What conclusions must I draw from this?
Easy - your god does not exist and you are just saying it does. Your religion is worthless and has proven itself to cause conflict and strife. Yet you choose to ignore that. Why?
If you guys had spent the last 1500 years turning the other cheek and loving your enemies, we would not be having this conversation.
Actions speak louder than words.
You are like a broken record, honestly.
You must have these posts all filed and paste them in to suit.
As for turning the other cheek, just what would you expect to see written here.
"Oh, Mark, hit me again with those hurtful/hateful words, please. I am turning the other cheek to you"!
Actually, I do it in silence. I'm still here. That's kind of the same thing. Putting up with all the crap you, and others dish out.
I mean you still don't get it. I'm not religious. You are just too ignorant of what that means.
Sorry to be so blunt about it.
While you are laughing your arse off, you may like to consider the hate implications of the statements themselves.
You do not seem to be very bright.
Please read what I said!
Who is speaking? (in your quotes)
Who is the SUBJECT of each statement.
What instructions are in the statements?
Even as a "wog", I understand the basics of sentence structure.
Now re-read the verses you are using and find the meanings.
dj - the day you start following the instructions in Matthew 5 is the day I start having some respect for your non-religion.
Gotta love the rest of it though. Is that the one where he tells you that having sex with a divorced woman is adultery and should never be done?
You will never SEE me do it, because you don't SEE me. If you think I need to do it first, you are not a leader but a follower.
Why not try it without me?
dj - you cannot turn the other cheek in private and lash out at me in public and say you are following the rules.
The day you actually start behaving the way you keep telling everyone else they should be behaving is the day I respect your beliefs.
I never SEE you do it because you DO NOT do it.
Not sure what is so difficult to understand here. You have constantly argued and fought against any one who does not subscribe to your irrational beliefs system. And started dozens of threads simply to have a fight.
And you think you are turning the other cheek.
Seriously - it is people like you who persuaded me that your religion is garbage.
Really, really sorry to be so blunt (not sorry at all).
You still can't see what I am pointing to here?
Then I guess you just don't want to know eh?
..or is it that you are so psychologically naive that you really do not understand?
If you think your misquoting of these verses makes me look naive, so be it.
Ask any sane person what these verses say, (in context) and you will arrive at "the truth".
Yes, but your idea of sane is a religious fundamentalist like yourself!
No. Anyone who can be objective will do. We are now discussing the English language as pertaining to sentence structure. If you apply the rules to the verses you quoted, I think the real meanings will not support your way of using them.
Do you remember my thread "leave us alone"?
I tried ever so nicely to go separate ways, but you would not have it.
I'd be quite happy posting "nice things" here, only I get interrupted with venom from you, and others of your (lack of) beliefs.
You have called me "hateful, liar, religionist etc" a number of times.
I think you might be(just a little) hyppocritical!
I know you are not sorry for being blunt, but I think that "blunt" is a soft word for nasty and vicious. Maybe I misinterpret that, but I doubt it.
What are you not understanding about your behavior not being "turning the other cheek."?
You are not walking the extra mile, nor are you giving me the cloak off your back.
You are fighting, arguing and defending your position. Go and read Matthew 5 and then tell me you are doing what you keep telling me I should do.
Just because I think your beliefs are ridiculous - and you do not follow them, and I say so - you think I am nasty and vicious. Not honest.
This is why your religion is destined to cause strife and conflict until the end of time. The followers only want everyone else to stick to the rules and are apparently so deluded that they think they are loving and turning the other cheek, when in reality they are fighting.
Go on - show me that you can actually turn the other cheek.
Back down and admit that I may be right, there might not be a god, your moral code is no better than mine, and you are sorry for starting threads solely to have an argument because the proven facts of evolution happening scare you.
I am WAY late for my dinner, so "catch ya later dudes".
I'll be back later, (maybe).
No, god is no scientist because god does not exist.
But you are unlikely to test that in any proper scientific way.
Well I would still believe in the bible verse I quoted in my hub that Blessed are those who have not seen God but has believe. I would not invest my soul to some wrong thinking. No one would ever convince me that God does not exist cause my life alone comes from God.
Ernest I agree that nothing should be believed with out proper scientific research.., But how is that done? From my limited understanding you start with an open mind and then you search and research, you experiment with no expectations ( I mean that is the only way to get any kind of data that will be accurate).
That's what I have done anyway.
How have you researched the exsistance of a higher power (not someone elses Idea of God but what God would mean to you?) I'm just curious my friend
I think he made it clear that he doesn't believe in God, as he stated in the post you picked up. So I don't think he will be able to give you an 'idea'of something he doesn't believe in
But if you can state something does not exist, how can you know that to be true if you haven't done any research on it, I guess that is my point.
god is darkness and cold and studies them. And god can divide by zero. omg
Pretty much the same thing. I love these forums! They really make you think!
It is very personnal, my faith in God is a heart condition if that makes sense. (Good to "See you Tantrum)
Yes it makes. I respect believers with brains. . I respect religions. What I don't respect is foolishness. You take care here. The first time i saw you I thought maybe you were one of those nice to see you too
Hi Sybil Marie, a "heart condition" or a feeling isn't proof though.
Just another thought.It sounds like your non-believe is a belief of sorts.
Really, how is that so, what do you mean by you are your own God? It is great that you love yourself, you really can't love anyone else really until you love yourself.
What do you mean by created everything? Where did you start? Where did the Ideas you have today come from?
I will be back to see your answer later but I must go cook some Chili) :cool
that last was suppose to be a smilry face with glasses but didn't work
Good morning all.
I feel that there is an enormous proof that god does not exist in every religious book I have seen including The Quoran and Torah.
These days we have many tools to look at religiosity with. A quick read through any of these tomes will display the one god or entity demanding to be worshiped, adored and believed.
That neediness of this god, and the childish yet vicious threats in "the word" is enough for a sharp educated mind that has not been indoctrinated to see that the words are from humans, with human values and weakness which are projected on to the god figure as a way to suit themselves and their own poor values, which are there to see.
The bible is often used as literal support for god in religious forums and it is a nonsense.
No, the sciences especially medicine are disproving god daily. The more we know about science the less plausible it is to believe in a god.
Every "proof" of god is a sham created by a few religionists scientists who are laughed at by the scientific community outside their own circle.
Exactly. Christians will say "Get ready for the rapture, for the Lord's return, then you will KNOW the truth. It's coming soon!!!" It's been coming soon for how long now? :LOL: I say get ready for science to debunk all your so-called proof of God arguments. Get ready for THAT, I tell ya.
PS- hi Earnest. I miss you when you're not here. Good morning.
WHAT?! Okay, I'm sure you didn't read my hub that started this discussion. I am currently reading the material you sent me, so I'd like it if you returned the favor and read my study that I posted on my hub. The scientific experiments I have referenced are from the scientific community.
And I'm not posting this as promotion, but response to this comment.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-God-a-Scient … erspective
You started this thread with the express intention of posting a link to your hub. Your hub did not start this discussion. Your hub is worthless drivel. Now you are adding it again as a "response"
How very christian of you. I have decided it must be the special underwear that makes mormons slightly more underhanded than the other cults.
We have all read your ridiculous ramblings - there is no science in it whatsoever. And really - demonstrating your ignorance of science is not really helping your case.
Most religionists say god and science go together - of course they do when you make up your own "science."
Are you ready as well to disprove evolution? relativity? Atomic chemistry? quantum physics? Electro magnetism? Thermodynamics? Genetics?
Are all these pseudo sciences?
I'm anxiously awaiting your arguments against these 'truths'
What are you talking about? I have no problem with any science.
I do have a problem with you taking 2,000 words to say,
"Look at all this science. It must have been created by an invisible super being."
Sorry - I know your religion teaches you to use semantics to cause conflict, but please - your hub is worthless drivel that I have just condensed down to 15 words for you.
Then you skipped the part where it mentions God is not invisible.
Deary me, you are desperate aren't you? Why?
No I read all the way through it. It is worthless drivel that I have condensed down to 15 words for you. Now go and read MY hub that explains why evolution proves your invisible super being does not exist.
evolution vs creation
I am reading you hub now. I have not finished it, but I can tell you right now I love it.
Nothing pisses me off more than people who deny proof when it's laid in front of them. I believe in evolution, and I believe that the earth is billions of years old.
The argument I hate the most from fundamentalists, (which are also ones to be advocates of stagnation) is that they cannot accept change.
Evolution exists, (WE HAVE FRIGGIN FOSSIL RECORDS!!!)
Carbon dating is accurate--
and proof is valuable insomuch that additional truth might 'evolve' into more truth by further proof.
Right - now explain to me the theory of evolution as you understand it.
I am of the same opinion as Darwin according to the current theories. That doesn't mean the theory cannot 'evolve' into higher, and more accurate proof.
Sum it up for me in a few sentences please. And I will just point out that you are using the term "proof," incorrectly. Whether this is intentional is not clear.
Survival of the fittest-
Species can only reproduce with each other and have fertile offspring
Extinction occurs because the species isn't the fittest
Traits are passed on to offspring
Competition of survival and resources
Mutation eventually causes differing species in a family tree sort of pattern
Oh, and if you want me to admit the monkey thing, then yes, I believe humans have not been in this form for forever. Mutation occurred, hair was lost, quadrupedal became bipedal, brains were enlarged, thumbs were opposable, and the hyoid allowed for language to form.
All right - now we are getting somewhere.
So - answer me this question now - if all this is happening - survival of the fittest, new species emerging based on the adaptation to natural changes in the environment etc etc.
How on earth could that possibly make any sense if there was a pre-determined developmental destination?
Well, to be honest, I believe it is because God is perfect, and we are not. Now, if survival of the fittest, or evolution, is correct, then we are eventually going to become better than we are. Right now none of us are perfect (Just look at my mother-in-law)
However, eventually we will come to a point where we will figure out 'perfection'. One atom, one chromosome, one genome, one cell at a time.
Medicine will be part of it, physics will be part of it, harnessing the properties of light will be a part of it. Science, in all its branches is working to make us 'better' to make us 'understand'. The hope is, then, that eventually perfection will be the destination.
I think the acceleration of scientific advances, especially now, is an indication that the second coming is on its way. (even if it is thousands, or even millions of years away)
That will only happen when the ultimate superlative of perfection is than achieved. When people are then evolved to withstand perfection will we then be ready for it.
Darkness (imperfection) never exists in light (perfection).
If we're here to learn how to be like God, and become like God, then he is definitely giving us the brains and desire to figure it out.
Semantics. "God is perfect and we are not" does not answer the question in any way shape or form. And I thought you were a big fan of proof......
Please answer the question in a more direct fashion leaving out "I believe."
And to be perfectly blunt - I don't care what irrational reasoning you choose to try and justify your beliefs with.
We agree evolution happens. We agree it is a natural process based on adaptation to change - either internal mutations or external environmental changes.
Now - this theory must surely be invalid if there was a pre-determined destination?
It is not predetermined, it is chosen by us.
We can choose perfection if we want to participate in it.
Some people call perfection God, some call it something else.
Now. In every city there is a smartest person. In state, country, and even world, there is a smartest person. I am of the opinion that we are not alone in this universe and because of that, I would like to assume (because I do not know, but I WANT to believe) That there is a smartest person (being maybe) in the universe.
I know I know nothing compared to this being, but I would like to know what they know. Some people call him God.
Now, 'God is perfect, we are not' Might be presumptive. Perhaps I should have said: 'The smartest and most evolved being in the universe is so far how we can gauge perfection.'
Clearly you do not understand biological evolution if this is your answer.
Now try it without the assumption that there is a god and we are "choosing," to change. This is the worthless drivel I was referring to.
What has "perfection," got to do with the scientific theory of evolution. Please stick to the question I asked.
If there was NOT a developmental destination - then we were not created by a god - we just happened to evolve into our current development.
Evolution does not stop today. Luckily humans can expedite 'biological' evolution. Current genetics is now showing us how we can manipulate 'biology' into something better equipped to survive.
Aren't we already 'choosing to change' if we can make plants glow in the dark? Humans live without cancer? Maybe one day grow back limbs?
This expedited, and even custom form of evolution refers back to the 'survival of the fittest'. We are essentially wanting to survive conditions we live in - - - and perhaps one day survive into conditions we're not aware of yet.
Because we 'happened to evolve into our current development' does not mean we are not currently realizing that we can change our development.
Seems to me that genetics is the answer to resurrection.
Once we can bring back an extinct species using genetic science we'll be able to 'begin' to understand the process of making sure that species does not die out again.
But that may be an unnecessary tangent. I admit that.
You are missing the point. You seem to be agreeing that we "happened to evolve" to our current development.
How does this involve a god exactly?
And you are now off on another tangent as to what you "believe" the future holds.
How can there have been a god involved in the process up to this point?
When I mentioned 'happened to evolve into our current state, I was merely quoting your post before for emphasis. I hope that clears it up.
Now, I cannot predict the future, but I can observe the present and see what is currently happening in genetics to change evolution.
Evolution is not just in specie form, but also in their brains. The more we know, the better we are because the new applied knowledge allows us to progress further.
Evolution up to this point is eventually pointing us to a future that we choose. And if evolution is an unchanging truth, then eventually we will be better. The most evolved being in the universe will be better, and soon the absolute superlative of evolution will be closer than we realized before.
And how is God involved? He implanted us with the desire to be better and to figure it out ourselves.
What does that have to do with the last several million years of evolution? We have only been self aware for about 30,000 years.
Now drop this assumption you keep making and explain how there could have been a god involved.
Refer to the previous post. I noticed I forgot to mention that point, and so I mentioned it previous.
Now, about the last 30,000.
Time only exists when we're not moving the speed of light. If God is light, then the 'last several million years of evolution' is only measured by (granted to) our current dimension.
To further explain this point I need to refer you to the theory of relativity.
Nicely avoiding the question yet again. I am not really interested in discussing this any further with you. Clearly you do not understand evolutionary biology and cannot answer the question I posed.
I am not asking you to tell me once again there was a god did it.
I am asking how on earth that ridiculous supposition can make any sense given the facts.
LOL Your "science" needs a little too much interpretation for my taste. Have a pleasant rest of the century.
No, the only thing about the destination that was pre-determined is that it was pre determined to change constantly.
That is what a potter does, makes things, changes them, make them again another way, breaks it, molds it again, throws water on it, heats it, crushes it to pieces, re-molds it.
Until He is finally done with it, or not.
Not real hard to grasp.
Yes I understand! I get it !
God doesn't know what will work or not so he just keeps trying things until it works out the way he wants. Or not.
Just like us. How odd.
Wait a minute - that would mean we created god in our image - not the other way around.
Thank you dead dog guy - I have seen the light.
You lack as much wisdom as Mark does.
God does what He wills and you have no say so in the matter.
If He so chooses, you could be blind today and see 3 days later.
Or are you that naive to think otherwise?
I believe he can do as he wish. I believe everyone can. If the law applies to him, then we need to abide by the same laws. The laws of physics, gravity, math, etc. are absolute and eternal. Even God obeys laws (The commandments for example)
No Mark....you do NOT "get it"....God knows what works for the time it is needed and when He is done with it, He discards it and makes something else. That is what a potter does Mark.
And stop acting like he answers to you.
He makes and creates and destroys and makes again. Like a potter.
So what, big deal. Can you not do the same with what you make?
Seems like a pretty inefficient way to make a pot.
You don't get it man....have you ever seen a potter at work?
Does the clay resist?
I can choose to live an immoral life, I can choose not to read the bible, I can choose not to eat Cheerios.
Hell is reserved for those who choose it.
Can you not choose what you eat for breakfast?
I am not talking about being a stupid ass idiot, I am talking about can you resist Him if He wants to take your breath away?
Paul tried to resist Him.
Peter tried to resist Him.
What, do you think He cannot persuade you because of your big bad freewill?
Jonah tried to resist Him to man, look what happened.
Don't be so damn cocky!
A designer can do as they please.
The artist can make things as they will. Make them to change if the wish.
Nobody can question them for it.
Out of respect, I must disagree. A single destination (perfection) is eventually the goal. Your statement doesn't make sense.
We must question it to prove and understand it.
The Creator can make things that change right?
Change into exactly what they are suppose to be.
Then change again when the use for that one is over.
I don't think the Creator can change people. People change people. They have their free will and can choose for themselves how to be.
It is because of this that God allows us to choose to be good, or evil.
If we are perfected it is because we choose to be.
If we are damned, it is because we choose to be-- not because God forced us to be.
God can change your life anytime He sees fit, we are only clay, the potter does not answer for what He does with us at all.
If He wants to give, then take away, who are we to stop Him.
If He draws one and not another, is that my business?
He is Sovereign, they do not answer to men.
He can give you children or not. Take them away or not.
He is the potter, no doubt about it at all.
If you yield to the potter, that's a good idea, let Him mold you.
Okay, I'll change now. Or is it evolve?
I'll assume it's both.
Plus I would like you to find me any literature, lecture, etc., that tells me I have to use Semantics to cause conflict. If you say my religion teaches it, there must be documentation... Again, I love proof. There is a 'reason' for scientific method.
The "proof" is right in front of you. I think I have made a reasonable conclusion. You use semantics to cause conflict. Most of the other religionists here do.
I therefore come to the perfectly reasonable conclusion that your religion teaches you do to this.
But when, and by what doctrine, was I taught in sermons or otherwise?
Because I use semantics does not mean my Bishop or Church, or even Jesus told me to.
Everyone, including you and me, uses rhetoric to prove a point. It's called persuasion, and you and I both know we won't change each other's minds, even though we hold firm to our beliefs.
However, evidence (semantics, arguments, whatever you want to call it) is taught by schools, life experience, teachers, etc. Not exclusively the Mormon Church.
Wondering how science has proven we have a soul and spirit?
If one believes in that anyhow.
Science can not prove many things and is not very evolved.
The reason I asked is the people who do not believe in any god or God always ask for it to be proven to them.
God is Spirit though, and God has a Soul, neither of them can be seen.
So if the non beliveing folks believe they have either a spirit or soul, I would ask them to prove it or i refuse to belive it and call it irrational hogwash.
Is that fair?
I disagree Mohit. I have a great interest in the sciences, and the work that has been done to enable us to understand the Universe, our own planet and ourselves.
Some of the areas that are growing exponentially are nonotechnology, brain function, body and mind chemistry, (this one is huge when it comes to sourcing one's religiosity!)
Brain chemistry extends to be mind chemistry, (chemicals that are able to cross the BBB) The possibilities are mostly limited by human fear of the unknown, so religionists do not often study inner self, and have excuses like : "I wont take that drug" when they are using medicines that are prescribed, dangerous drugs! Anything to escape knowing self. When questioned I have yet to find a biblical believer with even a rudimentary knowledge of states of consciousness other than drunk or not drunk.
There is an enormous amount to know!
I like that as a free thinker, one can wander in to any disciplines and learn about any of the ones of interest, and thereby create an ever broader understanding from many sources at the same time.
For example medicine and chemistry, nanotech and brain function, religion and psychology When assembled and combined they lead to better knowledge of each.
The best and fastest motorcycle and car racers got that good by combining a strong native knowledge of engineering with their driving/riding skills. These are the ones who constantly win.
I too believe in science, medicine, technology, chemistry and more.
Anyone who does not denies the obvious to their own shame.
I also believe in the realm that I cannot see with my physical eyes, but I see with the spirit, intuition and understanding the things that are invisible.
As many do, but they do not all have to believe in a god to do so!
I read your hub. No proof of any of it, just your ongoing assumption of a god, and religious quotes. Your attempts to tie science in with god are presumptive as well, and a long way from scientific. that is my view.
These were experiments done by universities independent of even tying in, or proving God at all. This is quantum physics, evolution, theory of relativity, and string theory, just to name a few.
Are you prepared to give me a cogent reason why all of these theories of reputable science are false? And what religious quotes are you talking of? I have none. I'm not convinced you did. Really, I am reading your material you referenced, I'd kindly as you to read mine.
Not that easy to sidestep sunshine and rude of you to try. I have no problem with the science, but with your god assumptions about it. It is pretty silly to respond to me here pretending that I do not believe in known and established science, and dishonest too!
I read the hub as well. The trouble is, you make assumptions a God exists in the first place. If you're a firm believer in proof, then you must prove God exists. Your attempting to associate/tie together God and science is nothing new. Heard many arguments about God initiating the Big Bang. Way too many holes in the argument. Have you read any of Stephen Hawking? I'd highly recommend it. We're all looking for proof, it seems.
I have a shelf full of Steven Hawking. Love the guy. And yes, I'm aware of his views on God.
The thing is, I think any true 'religion' 'philosophy' 'view on life' etc, should only accept truth. Truth, no matter how it is found or viewed, is good. I don't believe, or rather, want to believe, in anything that isn't true. And yes, we are looking for proof. 'Truth' is another word for it. My investigations, study, experiments, etc., as gotten me this far. As well, your same methods have gotten you as far as you are.
In this life, all we want to do is find truth no matter how we find it.
Plus, the one thing that annoys me the most about religionists is that they make the Gospel goofy. Really people, it doesn't need to be so cooky. It needs to be intuitive, easy to understand.
Nothing makes more sense then the truth.
God is Spirit...no need to prove that anymore then you have to prove you have a spirit. It is just there!
Do not say to Him..."you cannot change me"
Not a good idea friend.
I think a better prayer would be: 'God, what do I need to work on to be better.
I guarantee that prayer will be answered. You can always find something to be better at.
Well, you said "God does not change people"
So I said what I said, go ahead, tell Him He cannot.
A potter can change you in a herat beat without your consent.
Trust me, your freewill is no match for the potter.
Are you going to say next that you can resist God?
Haha, it has been a great discussion.
Refer back to the archives if you wish.
I'm afraid I will need to continue this later as I have work tomorrow morning.
Something very rewarding about being a pilot. I'm glad man was able to figure it out.
He did not "figure it out"......the wisdom was given to him.
All is given, man is but dust.
I didn't say it wasn't given to man. In fact, I believe it was... Through a brain that was able to figure it out.
The brain, a priceless gift.
All is a gift.
If you believe man was given the wisdom and the brain to figure it out.
Then give man no credit, all is a gift !
The Wright Brothers were prepared to receive it. They did the work, they did the study, they did the experimentation. It was a process they worked for and because they were prepared to receive that revelation they received it.
Revelation comes through specialty. You do the work (according to the desire gifted to you) and God will bless you with further knowledge.
I give credit to God for gifting me with a desire to learn what I do. He blesses me the more I exercise that gift.
As the Wright brothers were.
Goodnight, WaffleCheese! Hope you're not too tired tomorrow from hanging out here. I know I often am.
You are making god threats with an empty hand again. You can talk about wisdom with a straight face?
Nothing complex here.
God is in charge, we are NOT.
A display of power often proves that in a moment and then nobody is laughing or asking for proof anymore!
Then why is this life a test?
Would God force us all to succeed? Sounds like communism.
We need to choose what we wish. We can choose to be bitter at trials, or we can choose to be humble.
God cannot force us to 'convert' once a loved one dies of Cancer. How we act on that is up to us.
There is a reason for the judgment. It is to punish those that 'chose' sin. And reward those that 'chose' righteousness
It is wise to choose to do what is pleasing to God.
He is still in charge and when He is done with you, you are no more, He owes you nothing right?
Life is full of trials to refine us, just like a potter refines clay.
We are not ones to stand here and say, I do as I please.
God might just say "Oh really?"
Just like your dad would.
God has the ability to persuade you to do any thing any time.
If my dad forced me to listen to him, I would be less apt to listen.
Like when I was a kid.
If I choose to listen to him, then I am more apt to learn.
You obviously do not know the meaning of the word KING !!!
Would you resist a KING?
Listen to him only if you wanted to?
There is a difference between following a king, and meaning it.
I can say I follow him, but if my heart is far from him, then I am resiting him.
The worst sinners are not the harlots and publicans. It is the ones that profess that they are righteous, when in reality they are just faking their way through.
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