We should all be atheists because atheists are totally awesome.
Gosh I totally
I will try to from now on.
Atheists also make the best music, this is a true fact.
Well Sanctus, God being the creator of music, I believe if you put a piece of music Messiah composed next to an atheists score.....no doubt I would take Messiah's.
If god is the creator of music, then why do southern baptists (and other religious sects) say music, dancing (anything fun, actually) is evil and sinful?
Plenty of ignorant denominations out there who do NOT understand the Psalms.
David sang, danced, worshiped God, played loud, and rejoiced in music, he also drove out demons with it.
So, please (very sincerely, I'd like to know) explain why these religious sects believe music is a sin?
As a Jew, I've always been around music as part of religion. Granted, the tunes are generally melancholy, but music nonetheless. A lot of our music--in minor keys--sounds sad which, according to my dad, is because Jews have gone through too much crap throughout history and those sad notes are a reminder of all we have survived.
So how can music (I suppose I'm addressing various forms of Christianity, but feel free to mention other religions) be sinful? Especially, if you believe the whole "made in his image" thing--if we create music and we're made in his/her image, then how can it be bad?
Music in the Torah (fellow Jew, I believe in Ha' Mashiach too though) is never spoken of as being evil.
People can use it to promote evil, but they can use a hundred dozen other things as well. I think that the ignorance of many religions refusing music is because they see what non believers do with it and they toss out the music along with the behavior.
Strange thing is though, they probably all have a TV at home
Much of the minor key stuff is melancholy and prayerful to me. I compose both kinds though, the happy and the sad. I think anyone close to God will do that.
Been to a lot of services where both are played.
Tanakh is full of music.
*gasp* but if God makes all music, and atheists make the best music, then God makes the best music through atheist! This new revelation is making my head spin! I feel like someone is asking me to divide by zero!
Not what I said at ALL...I said He created music, but He does not author all music.
God created music, power, sex etc...but any atheist can glorify themselves with it and turn it into the "all about me show"
If you think that Messiah cannot compose better music than an atheist, you need to listen to His melody.
If you think atheists make the best music, it sounds like drawing closer to God is in order.
Perverts can take something good and use it for destruction.
Atheists are egocentric and self absorbed?
Being atheist is a choice?
Well if you tell them that, they start at you I have found.
If they hear anyone talking about God they feel like all over the place.
Yep, tis a choice, a choice they can die with too.
I think most all humans object to being called egocentric and self centered, regardless of religious belief or disbelief.
So, just to be clear, you're saying to be an atheist is a choice? A person makes a conscious decision to be an atheist?
Both the atheist and the believer make a conscious decision.
Being insulted does not bother me personally in the slightest.
I know my Father.
Wow Quiet. I suppose you think being homosexual or heterosexual is a choice too?
Clearly defined as such.
To say one has no choice in a matter is to say one is powerless.
The only powerless human beings are infants and little children.
Again Quiet I say wow. Where would I even begin, to try to respond to your......statements?! I'm walking away. Enjoy your thread.
The choices you make will go before you and follow you and be beside you too.
Once you come of age, all of your choices are on you, cannot blame anyone else.
For a Jew this happens at 13.
Not all atheists are egocentric and self absorbed.
Open-minded atheists, agnostics, and skeptics have one great thing in common with open-minded, intelligent, reasoning believers (and yes, they're out there). They're not afraid to question and challenge.
I'm impressed by how easy it is to define others actual beliefs based simply on their lack of belief in something else.
When someone describes themselves as an atheist, they aren't defining themselves as a member of any prevailing attitude. They could, as the original poster describes, believe only in "themselves". That's a bit in line with the hedonism philosophy described in the (wholly nonreligious)Satanic Bible.
They could be humanists who believe that mankind as a group is capable of the ultimate good and does not require divine inspiration to achieve great heights.
They could be apathetic. They could be a rationalist or a simple skeptic.
The mistake of the entire (flippant) premise is to try and consider non-belief systems to be equivocal to faith. When someone says they are Catholic, there are a few basic assumptions you can make about their core beliefs based on the fundamental tenants of the religion. Same with any sect of any religion once you scratch beyond the surface.
There's no such ability to do so, as there are no central tenants for atheism beyond a lack of belief in religion.
You missed the point.....they worship themselves.....they are their own "religion"
a feeling of profound love and admiration, idolize, love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; to venerate
That is them....they are their own god.
I think your a nice person quietnessandtrust. I'm a Christian and reading through this thread - it seems you are having a dig at the atheists. Everyone shoud have a right to make a choice of what Religion/belief they have.
I have very good friends who are Muslims and Indians and I respect their beliefs vice-versa. Just let people be and peace will reign.
I don't get this whole thing of beliefs being choices. Either you believe or you don't, such as with religion. Either you are something or you're not, such as homosexual or heterosexual. You can lie or you can admit. But I don't get where choice fits in. I choose to treat others with respect or not. Belief just is.
The choice comes in when you first hear. One either chooses God or does not.
Religion has nothing to do with it as far as the choice is concerned.
A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices.
God and the choice made concerning Him is not made according to any religion. He is a personal choice. Love is a personal choice. God is love.
A person makes a choice on WHO they are going to love. Love is a choice. Some people make a choice to not love God. They seperate themselves from His love as they have chosen not to accect Him even so much as a part of their "known" reality.
To the believer who has made the choice in God, this is really simple. God is not only very real to them in their Known reality, He is that reality.
To the nonbeliever and or atheist, this is a hard pill for them swallow. "How can anyone believe in someone they cannot see, feel, touch, etc?"
The believer has answer for that, we can see, we do feel, and it because of His touch on our hearts.
The nonbeliever/atheist does not agree with that answer. They think that in those cases "good for them" Like this is only reserved for the believer. But it is not. God is real. His touch, His love is for EVERYONE.
Everyone has the ability to see, feel and yes even touch God. We touch God everytime we take someone by the hand, give them a hug etc. We feel God in every breath we take. He is there in all of that. Some however choose to not believe that. They choose to ignore those senses which God tham to KNOW He is real.
They in essence THINK too much. lol Seriously. They put way too much into it. God says, my yoke is EASY, my burden, light.
He is right in front of your face. Right now even through reading these words.
Do you believe it?
Others do not
Ahhh, a choice emerges yet again.
I understood the point exactly as stated. I am saying that your "point" is based on an incorrect assumption based on the outlooks of a disparate group of people.
W/E. The simple point that was made is that people should not have a dig at Atheists and respect everyone's belief.
I agree with you to a certain extent. I believe we should respect eachother no matter what our beliefs are or are not. I don't believe we should respect everyones BELIEFS however. That is way too broad.
For example, one might believe it is ok to mutilate animals or molest children as part of their religious or occult beliefs, are we then expected to respect those beliefs?
I know you did not mean to inference that when you wrote it, I was just trying to make the point that not everyones beliefs should be "respected".
Now as far as having a "dig" at atheist's...Uhm, Are we not in the religious forum?
I think the ones who are really "digging" are the atheists. But it does goes as a two way street sometimes.
And that is not right. I think to have a discussion about God is good no matter WHO you are discussing Him with.
Coming into the RELIGIOUS forum when you are an atheist, I am sure the brilliant minds of these atheists I have seen on here could reason that they would be engaging with, uhm,... believers, yes? Ones whose beliefs far differ from their own,.. Yes?
So I would challenge back, Why do they come in here? Is it to have a friendly discussion about God? Is it to have friendly discussion about other gods? Others beliefs?
Just watch next time as you scroll the topics under religion. How many do you find where the atheists/nonbelievers are NOT being a part of it?
And of those, that is to say ALL if not, most and then look at the number of posts in connection to those topics.
Then I would challenge for anyone to scroll through some of the language used by the believers and the language used by the nonbelivers and tell me what you see, tell me who you believe is doing the digging and at who.
I do realize at times it goes both ways and I do think that is wrong for whoever it is that is doing the digging,.. except when that which is doing the digging is God or His Word.
When you want to call names, point fingers and denigrate a person or persons - do it right. A spade is a spade. You think a person that doesn't believe in(a?)God can only be capable of worshipping and adoring themselves. So say it like you mean it.
And when it comes to spurious crap, you're almost at my level. But you need to try a little harder.
atomswifey - I don't believe we have met before, so hello
To answer your question about why athiests (and etc) come into the forums. The religion forum is not exclusive to those that believe in God(s) or religion(s). It's an open forum.
'World religions, theology, epistemology, and the philosophy of religion
The above does not suggest that the sub-forum is only for the religious among us.
For e.g. do you understand the definition of 'epistemology'? I know it's very difficult to gather such a broad spectrum topic into a short sentence but it relates to beliefs, justifying them and knowledge.
A persons lack of belief in a formal religion does not remove the fact that they may still be spiritual, albeit in a different way to you. They are just as welcome in this forum as you and others that have faith.
I also disagree with your interpretation of 'digging'. The OP is digging, in no small way, at athiests. However you wrap up the question, he is implying that atheists love themselves above all else. That, to my mind, is openly denigrating anyone who doesn't have a faith in a God.
Your belief if your own. if you don't want to find yourself in a ruck with other people, don't publicly judge them on their beliefs. It's quite simple really.
And I was not inferencing that it (the forum) is restricted. what I was saying was very simple:
If I looked at the catagories of topics for discussion, I would rather choose topics which I feel I have an opinion to or would otherwise opt for the topics that I could contribute to. As do we ALL.
Now when you take into consideration the motive behind ones decision to enter into a discussion, not always are those motives driven by something that is innocent. Most often as you will see most atheists who come into a discussion with belivers do so with the motive of or intent of being obstinent, rude or otherwise, mean spirited. If the opposite of that werew true we would then see evidence of that, would we not?
Would we then see countless numbers of posts that were for lack of a better term, nice?
Ok, having said that, the inference was made that we believers etc. "DIG" at those whom we come into discussion with.
An atheist surely knows or is aware that coming into a religious forum, he or she will be speaking with believers, of different faiths whether they are believers in God, or whatever other god etc.
So why then do they come in the first place? Then I went on to explain the most obvious:
Look at the topics under the forum of religion,
and then look at how many posts there are
and how many of those posts are from atheists or those who do not believe in anything etc.
Then look at THEIR words in their posts compared to the believers words etc. Are their words simply engaging? Are there words nice? some are granted. I agree not all atheist and I am not saying all atheist are bad or mean spirited. I am saying that if you read the posts from most of them in here, you will find most are being rude, are being mean spirited and are not being very nice or pleasant at all, would you not agree with me on that?
I do believe we all have the right to come in here and discuss things, I was not and am not arguing about that nor debating that. I was implying that in respect to the "digging at" one should look at the words which constitute that "digging" and whom they are coming from.
And thats all I mean.
I never once said atheist or people of other faiths cannot be spiritual, or nice, or pleasant, or loving or whatever other morally correct adjective.
This particular topic was started in retaliation of sorts to another posted a couple of days ago entitled "If not for fear, Why be a Christian".
I did not see you all jumping in saying to respect the beliefs of the ones who were targeted in that, nor did I see all of you saying the one who started the topic was not respecting the beliefs of those who call themselves Christians.
Two way street remember?
It goes both ways
The stupidity is strong in this one Obi-wan.
Did I say it was right? Did I say I agreed with it? wist and turn my words all you want here guys, fact is, I really don't care what you think of me as a Christian. Your eyes are blind to the things of God. And too that would group us believers into that as well.
so be it then.
I appreciate your comments Len and Frog. Wifey, not so much. And OP, well seems like he's arguing his way to a DSM diagnosis.
Retaliation is an ugly word and no excuse. I was knocked about for years in retaliation for not coming to call quick enough or being asleep at 3am in the morning when my partner came home, when I should have been hung up at the back of the door.
An extreme example. But it's still a great one.
This form of retaliation (this thread) is benign. But does that make it better than any other?
I understand and agree with some of what you have stated. But.
Those that post relgious thread are equally obstinate, in their beliefs. I'd go as far as to say many appear to be incredibly dogmatic. And like breeds like.
As with this retaliatory thread.
I agree, and would not use this topic as an excuse. Rather it is an example again, "of sorts" of a two way street.
I think it funny, LOL Look at how even in this conversation we are having, as you and I some others who lack belief are charging me with being qoute "stupid" etc. That is exactly an example of what I am stating!
The immature insults which fly onto the screen so easily at the even mention of God or the words from His believers.
Here we see you and I carrying on a rather good conversation. We are not flinging insults at eachother, though we may disagree on some subjects or differ in our beliefs.
We are engaging in discussion in an adult manner free from those insulting and disrespectful remarks. That is how the forum should be. From both sides. And what I see happens to be present in this forum, right now, read above.
Anyway, to answer this thread seriously, first, I need to clear up something.
QaT you say that atheism is the worship of the self; this is not true, because atheism is not the same as LaVey Satanism. Atheism believes in no higher power. Satanism believes that humans are the higher power. One sect even believing that the during the final stage of human evolution, the strong of mankind will become a sort of super human/god hybrid.
Now, as to why someone should be an atheist, I could tell this was a snarky, come back question. There is no reason for someone being an atheist, BUT I can't blame these people, because they really don't have a choice.
Have you heard of the god gene? I was raised Jewish, but I'm sure I don't have that gene that makes one more likely to believe in this thing people call god. I have strong ties to my culture and history, but the whole god thing just doesn't do it for me.
This isn't a comment about anyone else's beliefs, it's just how I feel, which in turn makes me more sympathetic to others who just don't find that connection with some higher source.
I, too, believe religion was developed as a way to control people, money and property. Whatever it has become since is up to the people who practice. But I don't think anyone who doesn't believe in god should be accused of worshiping themselves. The point is, they DON'T worship.
This doesn't mean they are in any way a bad person.
My own rabbi and I have had discussions about belief in god. And even though I belong to a conservative synagogue, I find it more appealing to connect with other Jews in my area as a way of keeping my culture alive.
Presently, my son is only a few months away from his bar mitzvah. I'm not going to rob him of his culture because of my beliefs, nor am I going to force him to believe in god or even practice his religion. Once he finishes this basic instruction, I plan to leave it up to him if he'd like to continue his religious studies.
I merely want him to receive some Jewish education and have an historical/cultural connection to Jews around the world (remember...the chosen ones. Actually, I'm rather tired of being among the chosen ones with all the maniacs who want to kill us or rid us from the earth and--sorry Christian faith people--those Christians who say "love thy neighbor" yet find ways to condescend and degrade. I may not experience this as much as my dad did growing up in Depression Era Bronx, but certainly, I've been there and it's no fun.)
I don't see myself as relying on god for anything I can't do myself. I don't pray to god because I know it wouldn't change anything (according to my mother who does believe in god, "Don't you think god has better things to do than make good or bad changes to anyone's life?"). You may think that's sad. I know it as reality.
Still, I know I am a good person. I know I love my children and my family. When times are difficult, I find strength in my family and friends. Not god.
But...for those who do find help in praying to/believing in god, do whatever gets you through the day. In college, I had a roommate who was a straight-A student. Catholic. Before every test, she would pray and light a candle. It didn't matter that she studied (a lot). It didn't matter that she was prepared. She would go to church, follow this (almost superstitious)ritual, then go to class and get another A on the test.
Did she need the extra prayer? With all the preparation she did, in my opinion, no. Regardless, if it made her believe in herself more, than why not.
At this stage in my life atheism makes most sense to me.
Raised a Catholic, and having 12 years of Catholic school, as young as 11, I knew THIS religion wasn't for me. No, no one was mean to me, nuns didn't whack me and nothing weird happened...I just didn't feel attuned even though my mum was sacristan and sewed vestments for the priests.
I never could understand the passion for God in religion, prayer and at mass. I respect people's enlightenment through god though. If people understand it and it makes their life fulfilled I'm not going out of my way to harass them because it's just not my road to enlightenment or spirituality in life.
I expect the same whether I get it or not.
I just like to live whilst I know I exist and how I feel comfortable. I may be dead, and that's that so why worry and not live life when I have it. And, if I do go exist in some form after death (which, honestly I hope so), and that entails me to tumble to the 7th layer of hell...so be it too!
It's not a matter of you wanting to be atheist...religion and belief is very personal, and you need to find your OWN reasons for faith beyond what I say, she says, Torah, or the Bible only...you.
I don't know, there are times I take comfort from the stylized ritual, pomp and circumstance of the Church. I'm not dogmatic by any stretch of the imagination and there are many tenets of the Church I have problems with. I recently attended the funeral of the daughter of a good friend of mine and I could see how the ritual surrounding the event caused not only an outpouring of grief, but also began the process of healing and learning how to live without her. In the end, religion is something to comfort us.
Yea, don't get me wrong, I LOVE Churches...when they are empty. Very peaceful.
Heck, I'll go to Christmas Mass for my dad and be ok. But, as with comfort which it indeed is, it's also a community thing...and that is a small part of why I never enjoyed the ritual of mass, and sacraments.
For Me, it just never was appealing, but I get what you mean~
I was raised a Roman Catholic myself. Once I was "born again", I struggled with
-should I stay or should I leave- (the RC church). In the end I did leave on doctrinal grounds. To me, though, atheism was never an option. I cannot NOT believe, or believe in nothing.
I see a much higher purpose in life, and the so called natural, rational, and logical was and still is bankrupt. Atheism raises more questions than answers, and those that do come up as answers often require as much faith (if not more) than what faith in God (through Jesus Christ) does.
I agree that you are on your own journey, and I wish you well on it.
A believer believes in God ... an atheist does not believe in God.
Does Satan make mankind into atheists? If he does, he's a putz, as he doesn't make them believe in Satan instead. Ask any atheist ... they will tell you they don't believe in Satan either.
Are Buddhists atheists? They don't believe in God to my knowledge, but they do believe in spirituality and the humbling of one's self before others ... which precludes them from seeing themselves as a God.
Atheists are those who seek proof and believe they haven't found any. Guaranteed, if God were to pop down through a cloud tomorrow and talk to an atheist directly, they would become a believer, which makes one wonder, why doesn't God speak to atheists?
One could argue that they aren't pure enough, but look who Jesus (AKA Messiah) hung out with? He worked hard to convert the rogues of society (he even sought them out), so as the son of God, would we not expect God to do the same?
This is the one of the faults atheists find with religion ...
Case in point, I'm a computer technician by trade. Now, I could tell everyone here and everyone could believe me ... but some might ask for proof. Now, unless someone sees me repair a computer, what proof could I offer? Also, if I wanted others to believe me, wouldn't I be willing to offer proof?
Of course, I could just work with those who believe me and ignore those who don't. Better yet ... I could get those who believe to tell those who won't ... but again ... why not just show the non-believers proof?
Quite often, the death and resurrection of Christ is issued as proof ... so why is it there where non-believers right after this occurred? How could they doubt what they witnessed?
Atheists don't want to be non-believers ... they are forced into it by a lack of physical proof. After all, I could claim there is an invisible elephant in my house and no one here can say differently as I believe in him, which makes him real to me (fluffy, back away from the keyboard please).
So, who here can offer conclusive proof that there is no invisible elephant in my room? Any takers?
This is thw whole problem with atheism! They only see the natural, physical world. If God wanted to use a"physical" manifestation of Himself to gateher in believers, He would have set that up.
However, He has chosen the path of faith (in and through Jesus Christ) as His way. Now I don't know what to say to you, as to how to deal with that, but deal with it you must. Even if you discard it, you will have dealt with it.
This is nothing new. Jesus made many clamis to divinity and His connection to (it), IE, being ONE with God, etc.He was always being asked to give proof. What was His response?
Why is it, or should it be different today.
BTW, He has spoken to many atheists, who subsequently believed. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you!
I wrote a hub on it called "Meet God", but it's really up to you to seek Him out. Not get nasty (not that you did, but many do) with those who do believe and fail to give you the kind of proof you want.
The problem with the kind of "proof" you're describing is that it can't be shared. We are left with people's individual, unverifiable stories from personal experience, but you can't set up an experiment that would enable others to replicate that experience. Many people feel strongly they've been visited by saints or the spirits of departed relatives, and Christians are not different from the rest of us in discounting stories that are inconsistent with their worldview (accepting personal encounters with Jesus but not Grandma's ghost). Of course, some Christians believe in ghosts - the point is that we all evaluate hearsay evidence based on its believability within our worldview. So you can't really expect an empiricist to accept the personal encounter with divinity as a form of proof.
If you believe in that elephant, then for you there is one. If you're crazy enough, what can I say?. That doesn't mean I have to believe in it.That doesn't mean there is in fact an elephant. The same with God. If you like to believe in him, go ahead! That doen't mean God exists. If you want a proof that there's no elephant in your room, you're crazier than I thought !
Sad to say ... I asked for proof when my great-grandmother (a fervent believer) agonized in bed for months over cancer, praying that God would take her. She believed onto the end and suffered through it all.
I never received any comfort, but I did accept that things happen and it's all beyond my ability to comprehend.
As for me, I'm not an atheist, as I do believe in something. I just don't think it's as clear cut as believe and you go to heaven. I work hard for a living and I think spirituality is the same way. It's not about one's beliefs as it is about one's actions.
Place yourself in a room with two hardcore killers. One has a gun and the other is telling the man to shoot ... who do you fear more?
Another example ... One man is willing to loan you ten million dollars while another says you should have the money ... who do you count on more?
Beliefs are often spouted off with no consideration to backing them up with action, and so many are not given credit for their actions, as they believe in a way that differentiates from others.
Let us not forget ... there have been serial killers throughout history that said God spoke to them and told them to kill the people they killed. We obviously know them to be insane, but in their minds they believe in God fervently and are doing his will. Are they seen as God's disciples because they believe with all of their heart, or are they seen as Satan's messengers for the sins they commit?
Look up the phrase in Google 'God told them to kill' and on an exact phrase count you get 384,000 hits. Now, I remember murder as being a sin, so these people are acting outside the doctrine they were taught, but each of these cold-blooded killers swore they were told by God to do it and they fervently believed in God.
So, I ask, is belief enough to go to heaven? If it is, then these people got an E ticket, as they not only believed, they served God's will (or what they thought to be God's will).
My honest opinion? Actions speak louder than words. It's not about believing, it's about living a proper life. I've seen many evangelists fall from grace over the years, spreading the word as they broke it, and I can't help but feel God has more of an interest in those who follow than those who deceptively lead.
Isn't a King considered a finer man if he leads by example rather than words? Do the words of a man have meaning if he will not follow them?
and um ... Misha ... um ... your pic is kinda freakin' me out - doh!
You would know all about periods lol ! Being a big girl !
During my earlier years I ran into a lot of women that only had two periods ... one where they were angry followed by a short one where they were okay. Thank heavens the current misses isn't like that.
You're going to be who you want to be, believe what you want to believe. All of this talk and trying to convince people otherwise, is quite annoying.
Faith is evidence enough and the substance of belief.
You either have faith or you do not.
You could just be nice to each other because it's a good thing to do without having to have a divine being tell you that's what you should do. As could everyone, atheist and believer alike.
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