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Do you forgive people who do not ask for forgiveness?

  1. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    Reasons for or against?
    How many times do you forgive for the same thing?
    How many times have you been forgiven for the same thing?
    What kind of proof do you need in order to believe the offender really seeks forgiveness?
    What kind of forgiveness do you offer?

    Do you go to the offender or wait until they come to you?

    1. Jerami profile image76
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Not if they still got the same bat they hit me with   
      in their hands.

      1. profile image0
        Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Got that right.

        1. profile image0
          A Texanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          God forgives! I just make sure they get an audience with him!

          1. underhiswings profile image59
            underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            How do you do that?

            1. profile image0
              A Texanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I give them a ride to Church, or something.

              1. underhiswings profile image59
                underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                When you say God forgives, what about you though?

                1. profile image0
                  A Texanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm one of those unabashed sinners, no I don't forgive or forget.

                  1. underhiswings profile image59
                    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Seriously?
                    Did you learn that at the church you take the offender to?
                    Or are you joking?

                2. jiberish profile image78
                  jiberishposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I can forget, but  not fogive, unless they apologize.

                  1. underhiswings profile image59
                    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh Ok.
                    So you keep track and do not forget, but you forgive?
                    How does that add up?
                    Seeings how forgiveness is to forget as well because I thought that love keeps no record of wrongs.

          2. atomswifey profile image69
            atomswifeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            LOL
            I am sorry but this cracked me up!
            lol

            I am still laughing, good one Tex! smile

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Did you find the rest of Texans comments funny as well?

      2. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So are you saying you would forgive them if they did not ask as long as they had not bat? Or do they need to ask?

      3. profile image0
        Ghost32posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Sums it up! lol

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well obviously they do not want forgiveness if they have bat in hand.
          But what do they have to do for you to forgive is the question I'd like to ask you if I may?
          Do they need to ask? Change their ways?

    2. Drew Breezzy profile image79
      Drew Breezzyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      their action dictate my response

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        OK, what do they need to do to receive forgiveness from you?

    3. Daniel Carter profile image90
      Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, I do. I do it because i want to be free of the chains that bind them to me, and I'd rather be free of what they did.

      However, that being said, I hold horrible grudges, although these past few years have been easier to get past such things. I guess maybe, (just MAYBE) I'm growing up?

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Do you think holding a grudge keeps both parties in chains?
        So I take it the people you hold a grudge against these days have not asked to be forgiven?

    4. mobilephone guide profile image61
      mobilephone guideposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      to forgive is silly, to forget is ridiculous
      i'm not pretentious
      as such i don't need forgiveness

      you don't need to forgive or to forget in order to move on
      you just need to learn and understand from that experience

      1. mohitmisra profile image59
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Good points

        "Who am I to give,Who am I to forgive?
        "the binding force is love,
        The symbol being the white dove. " smile

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          OK, but did you have any answers from yourself personally?
          As in, what do you do?

      2. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Do you know that you will be forgiven exactly as you forgive?

    5. Lady_E profile image80
      Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Its hard to count unless you asked if we could count - in the last few years.
      Proof - If people are genuinely sorry.
      Kind of Forgiveness - I thought there was only one. (Tell the person its okay and don't remind them of it again)

      Forgiveness can be hard. I forgive people for the simple reason that I do not want to hold onto bitterness in my heart. It's bad Karma and also affects health.

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        How do they prove they are genuinely sorry? The evidence of being as such?

        Yes, there is only one kind of forgiveness, some folks think otherwise though. They say they forgive, but do not forget. Not understanding that forgiveness is offered to one who owes a debt, once forgiven the debt is forgotten by the creditor and not to be brought up or remembered.

        So if you say you forgive and do not forget, you have not forgiven in the truest meaning of the word. Every time you recall it because you refuse to forget it, you are not forgiving them all over again.

        Do you forgive knowing that you are forgiven to the exact degree that you forgive others as well? And yes, bitterness effects your health as well as your entire being.smile

    6. daabie8 profile image60
      daabie8posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Forgiving is a beautiful word, comes from the bottom of your hart and soul and when you do it everything makes sense, Unfortunately our ego has a big control over us and is not easy to let him go.
      Peace and light by with you

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Does your ego control you because to allow it?
        Is that a choice with you?
        Is self (ego) control a decision to make and live by?
        Or are you just a victim of your ego?

    7. AEvans profile image70
      AEvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I always forgive them so the answer for me is simple the answer to the questions is yes. smile

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        OK and what about the questions that do not ask for a yes or no answer?

    8. My Friend Shiyloh profile image60
      My Friend Shiylohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I go to the offender and humbly bring up the offense, knowing that I could be the one who had committed it.
      I realize they might not be aware of what they did.

      I endlessly forgive.

      I have been forgiven many, many, many times in my life for many things, everyday I need forgiveness for something, people are easily offended these days.

      If I know I have offended someone, I go to them right away.

      Proof ?
      Well I look at their face, deep into their eyes, watch body language, listen to the tone of their voice, the words they pick, what they do about what they did in order to repair it, if they are sincere or flippant. And then I watch.

      I offer total forgiveness, like it never happened.
      I forget about it too.

    9. arrrgonaut profile image61
      arrrgonautposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I haven't read all the replies to this, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating. 

      With out any religius connotations, I think that as humans we need to forgive people for the sake or our own mental stability.  Holding a grudge can be psychologically devestating.  Granting forgiveness to people, even if they have not asked for it, prevents the build up of stress and anger.  Also, finding ways to forgive people is an chance to better understand how your fellow humans think. Why did they do this? Why do they think it's ok? etc.

      This is not to say that all trespasses are forgiveable.  There are so many you-will-never-understand-until-it-happens-to-you situations that nobody can say that they will always be able to forgive others.

    10. chukra G profile image61
      chukra Gposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      what for forgiveness shall be given when you responsible for your actions. no mercy. believe me. you are being punished without your realisation smile

    11. profile image60
      joshua_joshuaposted 7 years ago in reply to this
    12. Cranoo profile image60
      Cranooposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't forgive people on the basis if the ask for it or not more on the basis of if they diserve it or not:)

  2. Lisa HW profile image81
    Lisa HWposted 7 years ago

    Sure, if I think what they did is forgivable (for example, if they didn't realize what they were doing create problems for me).  I think people who inadvertently do things that create problems for others often already feel so bad about they did they can't make themselves ask for forgiveness.  Others don't even know they did anything wrong. 

    On the other hand, if someone has done the unforgivable while knowing what he was doing - no.  All the begging for forgiveness in the world isn't going to sway me.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What is unforgivable to you?

      Are you saying that if someone knowingly commits an offense that you will not forgive? Even if they ask?

      1. Lisa HW profile image81
        Lisa HWposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The quickest thing that comes to my mind is someone intentionally harming (physically or otherwise) a child.  Another one is people who intentionally abuse elderly people.  If someone does that kind of thing I just think it's unforgivable, and if there's a God I don't buy that He would want us, here on Earth, to give such people a pass.  I happen to believe that there's even the chance - no matter how much a lot of people would like to believe otherwise - that God doesn't forgive some people for some things.

        This wasn't physical harm, but there was someone who committed malpractice (reckless indifference) in a professional capacity and who did create problems in my children's lives; and I see what they did as unforgivable.

        I'm an understanding and reasonable person; and I've been the victim of some people's "not knowing any better", as well as being guilty of doing something to hurt someone (not physically) without intending to.  I'm really quick to forgive, even without anyone's asking.  In fact, I'm the first to take the initiative to let them know I knew they didn't intend harm.  When people know what they're doing is wrong (like professionals who will lie in order to protect their own interests or sick freaks who harm helpless victims) - no, I don't think they should be forgiven.  People say the old line, "Oh, but if you don't forgive it won't be good for you."  I don't buy that.  It is perfectly possible not to forgive someone without living with constant anger.

        If someone asks it would depend, for me, on the situation.  If a teen kid got in trouble (without hurting anyone but himself) and asked for forgiveness, I'd forgive.  If someone punched me in the face for no reason and then asked for forgiveness - no.  Too many people think they can go around and do whatever they want, ask for forgiveness, and all is fine.  That isn't, to me, how being a decent person works.

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          So it seems like you have a list of things that are not forgivable for you?

          Even if someone asked? After they punched you?

          No, people cannot go around and do whatever they want, I agree. smile

          Do you think we can forgive and yet let the person deal with the consequences?

  3. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    Yes I forgive them...well some...sometimes one can't be forgiven by their actions.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Which action are those?

      1. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I've already stated two actions that I don't forigve.

  4. jiberish profile image78
    jiberishposted 7 years ago

    Nope, I hold a grudge.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Seriously?

  5. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    How many times would you forgive someone for the same offense?

    If they asked? If they did not ask?

  6. Bibowen profile image90
    Bibowenposted 7 years ago

    There are two reasons that you must forgive people who do not ask for it. First, it is commanded that we do so. Jesus gives the prime example of forgiving those on the cross who nailed him there saying, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

    But, even if you don't follow the words of Christ, there is a motivation out of self-interest. Bitterness is a cancer of the soul. Everyone has seen it happen to someone, if you've lived long enough. You don't find people that are vibrant, enjoying life who have been harboring unforgivness for an extended period of time. They dry up and die within. After awhile, you can see it on the outside. They are angry and bitter at the world. They only derive pleasure from hating, not loving.

    Whoever it is, forgive them. For God's sake and your own, do it.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      OK, according to Jesus you forgive them for they know not what they do.

      What if they know what they are doing and do it anyways?

      Do you think people should be forgiven even if they don't ask? Not talking about for your benefit so you are not bitter.

      Does Jesus forgive someone who knows what they do willingly and does not ask for forgiveness from the other party or from Him?

      What if they offend Jesus, does He forgive without them asking?

  7. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    One friend has been forgiven a lot for treating me the same way...now I have stopped being hre friend and have stopped forgiving her for it.

    Another person threatened my life back in HS I don't forgive her at all....

    Like I said depends on the actions of the other.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Even if they asked in all humility? If they begged for forgiveness?

      1. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        God can forgive them if He wants too but I won't...Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me fool me thrice and I'm done with you.

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, I thought Jesus said to forgive 70 X 7 if they ask for it?
          And he was talking to people who wanted to know how many times if I recall correctly that is.

          So your limit is 3 times for the same thing?
          Have you ever been forgiven 4 times for the same thing?

          1. profile image0
            Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No because I don't go around threatening ppl nor do I go treating my friends like sh!t. So no I was never forgiven for something I have NEVER done.

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Ok, good for you. It's great to treat people how you want to be treated.

              I was only saying the 3 times thing because you indicated that was your limit.

              If you have never done the the same offense 4 times, then you are very rare indeed. smile

  8. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago

    Yes, actually.

    If the person in need of forgiveness still poses an active threat to others, I can take a moment to forgive after he or she no longer poses a threat.

    But most of the time, it's a matter of letting grievances go. I find forgiveness is just as good for the giver as the recipient, so whether someone asks for forgiveness or not, I can and feel I should at the very least forgive enough to move on.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I thought Jesus said to forgive someone if they offend you and they ask for forgiveness. How can you forgive someone who does not ask?
      Does Jesus do that too?

      Not holding a grudge is good for your health and well being, but that is not forgiveness is it?
      I thought it has to be requested by the offender?

  9. Flightkeeper profile image79
    Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago

    I think forgiving a person has not nothing to do with the person who has done you wrong and asking your forgiveness.  It's more a way for you to acknowledge that this has happened, and to move past it.  Having said this, it doesn't mean I'm going to continue to let this person hurt me. And if they do ask for my forgiveness, it's already been granted but that doesn't mean that the relationship will be as it was.

    1. profile image0
      Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah - or that there will be a relationship at all.

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So how many times do you extend forgiveness for the same thing?
        Or do you add up a number of offenses and your all through?

        1. profile image0
          Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Add up? Is that a joke?

          1. underhiswings profile image59
            underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Not a literal adding up and not a joke.
            Do you keep track? or when you forgive is it like the first time?
            I meant not offense at all. smile

        2. Flightkeeper profile image79
          Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well if you allow that person to keep doing you wrong in the same way, that's just stupidity. As I said, you can forgive but the relationship does not have to be the same.  You can make the relationship different or non-existant.

          1. underhiswings profile image59
            underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Forgiveness is offered if asked for and changes made, then you I patiently wait until they go through the learning curve. No bitterness held or records kept.
            The goal for me is to restore completely.

            1. Flightkeeper profile image79
              Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              So if they don't ask for your forgiveness and didn't make any changes, what do you do?

              1. underhiswings profile image59
                underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                You keep the boundary up between you and them, not bitterness, boundary.
                Each time they try and act like "it's all good"...I say, "we have that thing to talk about still"

                And if they keep running into that from you, they have a choice to make, you have already made yours.

    2. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I thought to forgive means to restore back to the previous place you were at.
      I thought you can be aware of what they are capable of doing, but allow the relationship to be restored.

      Do you have a limit on how many times you forgive for the same thing?

      1. Flightkeeper profile image79
        Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Your definition of forgive came from where?
        If you know that the other person will keep doing the same thing, why does forgiving that person mean that the relationship would be the same?

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I hold no grudge if they do not ask. I am just aware of them behaving that way and have a boundary with them in place, but no bitterness.

          I offer forgiveness when it is asked for and the person shows a change in behavior. Then if they do it again and change again and keep trying and ask for forgiveness, I offer the pardon as many times as they ask for it and patiently wait for them to make a permanent change.

          If they keep dropping the ball, pick it up, ask for the pardon and I can tell they really want to change, I give them unending forgiveness because I keep no records.

          Just me though.

          If you have been forgiven much, you love much and forgive much. As many times as it takes.

          1. Flightkeeper profile image79
            Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            So if forgiveness isn't asked for you don't offer it?

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I would say that if someone is ignorant of what they have done and you know they had no clue, then forgive them because they did not know.
              I would mention it to them kindly though. smile

              If someone knowingly offends and does not ask for the pardon, then none is granted. I am not bitter about it though.

              Anytime they want to act like everything is fine without having asked for forgiveness, i just politely say "we have something to discuss still" and if they blow me off...well then...I have my answer.

              1. Flightkeeper profile image79
                Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Well if they blow you off, then your goal of being restored completely hasn't been achieved.

                1. underhiswings profile image59
                  underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Right, that's on them now is it not?

                  I want restoration and forgiveness, but I do not "NEED IT" from the offender, they have to want it. Again, it is a choice they make.

                  I will forgive you as many times as it takes if you really want to have a relationship. But one must SHOW it.

                  I have no "co-dependent" relationships. smile

      2. profile image0
        Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If you keep forgiving them over and over so the relationship can just stay the same they never learn that it's not ok to continue what they're doing.

        1. profile image0
          Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Amen Madame X!

          1. Daniel Carter profile image90
            Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            That's a total Bingo.
            In psychology, it's called "enabling."

            Forgiveness, to me, also includes the clause that I learned how to protect myself from being victimized a second time. In other words, I have the understanding and skill to not be troubled any longer by what happened because I'm able to avoid it in the future. I've cleaned the slate. Doesn't mean I have to keep putting up with it over and over.

            "Forgetting" as often to referred to in religions, is far less about not remembering and much more about no longer being "troubled" by it. It's not an issue that you have to keep revisiting and wrestle with. It's a nonissue, and therefore is now somewhere in the past and completely nonthreatening.

            That's my two cents.

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              If you forgive someone and then avoid them and have no more relationship with them, did the forgiveness bring restoration of the relationship?

              Does this work in a marriage, with children, friends, family, co-workers?

            2. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              If you forgive someone and then avoid them and have no more relationship with them, did the forgiveness bring restoration of the relationship?

              Does this work in a marriage, with children, friends, family, co-workers?

        2. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Forgiveness is offered when the change is made and the pardon asked for.
          Then if they do it again and ask for another pardon, I give it as long as I see some progress and not empty words.
          A change of heart is needed for sure, you have to have prof they mean it by what they do and be patient if they mess up with the same thing.

          Have you been forgiven 10, 15, 20 times for the same thing ever?

    3. eveklc profile image80
      eveklcposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I 100% agree with you!

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Forgiveness is an act of restoration and nothing less.
        When one has "paid their debt"
        ALL IS FORGOTTEN and nothing less.
        The creditor does not sort of "keep it in his pocket"
        No, you have been restored 100%

        And if the offense is done again, well start the process over.

        1. profile image0
          Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Only if they genuinely regret their action of hurting you. If they don't really mean it then it would be stupid to "forget" what they did even if they apologize. God isn't stupid either.

          1. underhiswings profile image59
            underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Like I have been saying.
            Change of heart, attitude, actions, words, being serious about it all.
            No stupidness here, they have a choice to make, I have made mine.
            To forgive as much as it takes with someone who is genuine and sincere.
            Right, God is not stupid. He gives discernment so we can see into the hearts of others if we ask for it, He will reveal it to us.

    4. profile image0
      rednckwmnposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      thats what I was going to say, only you sad it better!!!
      I am so thankful, beyond words, for the times I have been forgiven. And even more so for the ability to forgive. I do not belive anyone "deserves" forgivness. It is up to the one who has had wrong done to them, to try thier best to let go.

  10. Onusonus profile image86
    Onusonusposted 7 years ago

    when you forgive people without them apologizing, it makes you feel like a doormat.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I am not aware what God forgives without being asked unless you do not know what you are doing.
      If you know what you are doing though, you need to ask or it will not be granted?

      1. profile image0
        Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Only because you are one -  if they don't acknowledge that they hurt you.

        1. Onusonus profile image86
          Onusonusposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I won't be forgiven if I do not forgive, therefore I will forgive for forgivness sake!

          1. underhiswings profile image59
            underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            In fact you will be forgiven to the exact degree you forgive others who ask for it from you.
            So you are really forgiving so that you are yourself forgiven to that same measure.

      2. Onusonus profile image86
        Onusonusposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        double negatives are confusing, is this not true?

        just kidding. Your right though, people should ask to be forgiven.

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          My mistake sorry, it should say "you need to ask or it will not be granted"
          I will fix it. Sorry. smile

  11. profile image0
    margareteposted 7 years ago

    To err is Human , so i guess humanitarian consideration makes us forgive.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Asked for or not?
      Changes made or not?

  12. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    Why don't you write any hubs, underhiswings? I'm sure a lot of what you ask can be put into hubs.

    1. Flightkeeper profile image79
      Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I noticed that, why don't you write a hub underhiswings?

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I answered this, have to get the research done on the topic.

    2. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Have to do this research first I think, that way I have an idea.

      1. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Ah got ya...but you should also do hubs on other things not just religion. DOn't jsut stick to one topic....no offense but it'll get boring.

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I realize that.
          I did not know forgiveness was a religion.
          No offense.smile

  13. profile image61
    Ripsnortaposted 7 years ago

    I try.

    In a lot of ways, forgiving someone else helps me more that it helps them.

    1) There's a Bible verse that says that unless I forgive someone, then I won't be forgiven. That's heavy and more than enough reason to at least try and be a forgiver.

    2) There's research that shows that people who hold grudges end up with causing physical problems in their own bodies. Bitterness is a great way to age yourself.

    3) Every time I have forgiven someone, I've felt better about it afterwards. It's certainly a cliche, but there it does seem to be like a lifted weight.

    So yeah, it's difficult sometimes, but I try to be a forgiving person.

  14. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    No I guess forgivness is not though it is a part of religion when you bring God into it...

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Forgiveness between people is in direct relation to God if you believe in Him.

      Even if you do not, forgiveness principles still apply though.

      People will forgive you like you do with them.
      Just like you would expect them too. Jesus just made this clear.
      If you do not forgive, you will not be either.
      And you will be forgiven exactly the way you did others.
      You forgive others the way you would want to be forgiven.
      Do unto others like you would have them do to you in everything right?

      God is not a religion to me. It's not about that.
      It's about principles and relationships with mankind and Him and me.

    2. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      So what about you?
      Have you ever been forgiven 4 times for something?

      It's hard to believe someone can go through life and never made the same error 4 times. smile

      You say your cut off is 3, and that you believe in God, but that is not what He says to do, so I am confused. smile

  15. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    I admit, some things people do are a one time deal and while I can give them forgiveness if they asked, I cannot take away the consequences they will endure for the action.

  16. mindreader profile image61
    mindreaderposted 7 years ago

    some times yes,sometimes no.depends on the mistake and my relationship with that person

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Can I ask why that is?
      Is that how you want others to treat you too?
      What mistake could one make so that you offered no forgiveness no matter what they did?
      Do you only offer a pardon for certain people?

  17. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    'To err is human, to forgive is divine.' As I'm not divine, I never forgive. I'm human and always erring on this. big_smile

    1. Lady_E profile image80
      Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Tantrum

      are you saying no one's ever really, really hurt you or maybe ran over your Hamster or something...?  smile

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No ! what I'm saying is, that if you hurt me ,I will never forgive you, as I'm not divine .big_smile

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Do you ever ask forgiveness from others if you have offended them or done them wrong?
          What do you say to someone who asks you to forgive them for an offense?
          If someone offends you, do you tell them?
          If you do not forgive, will you be forgiven?

          Do you hold a grudge? Get bitter? Resentful?

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Let's be blunt here - forgiveness benefits the one doing the forgiving. Selfish behavior for one's own benefit. Holding a grudge is bad for you - we all know that. So there is nothing laudable about forgiveness.

            I forgive you for creating yet another personality to hide behind to push your irrational beliefs. lol lol

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I believe that to forgive another is to unchain them as well, not just me.
              The motive for me is not selfishness, it's just the right thing to do no matter how I "feel" about it at all.

              Did you have specific answers to the specific questions?
              A statement is ok if that's all you have.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I don't care what you believe. The fact is that forgiveness - especially where it is not needed - benefits the one doing the forgiving. And id we want to go the whole passive/aggressive christian route:

                "I forgive you for being so uneducated and ignorant that you are unable to see that." lol

            2. Davinagirl3 profile image62
              Davinagirl3posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I agree.

          2. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Of course not !!! I'm fully aware of my faults, andI don't ask for forgiveness as I know what I have done. I'm a grown up!! Maybe you aren't if you don't understand

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              So if you have done a wrong to someone you say nothing?

              1. tantrum profile image60
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Every time I did something 'wrong' to somebody I knew what I was doing. So why ask for forgiveness If I don't feel bad about it?
                To do something 'wrong' not being sure  and feeling bad about it , it's stupid and very base .

                1. underhiswings profile image59
                  underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  If they tell you that you have done them wrong, what do you do or say?

                  1. tantrum profile image60
                    tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                      that I knew what I was doing, and thought they deserved it

    2. Lisa HW profile image81
      Lisa HWposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      My sentiments exactly.  If there's a God, and if He wants to forgive some rotten piece-of-whatever - that's His business.  I don't think people should presume to be "divine".  How arrogant.   hmm

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        One does not have to be or think they are "divine" to forgive.
        I think we should do it if it is sought out, just like we want to be forgiven too.
        We measure out forgiveness and it is given back to that same degree.
        God does not forgive people who do not ask and if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven either.
        What if He waits for you to forgive them first, then He forgives like you did?

    3. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds like joking here.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        For you, of course. Being so 'deep'. you can't see what's on the surface lol lol lol

  18. Lady_E profile image80
    Lady_Eposted 7 years ago

    Ok. Gotcha.  smile

  19. atomswifey profile image69
    atomswifeyposted 7 years ago

    I forgive always, everytime, no question. smile I forgive even when I haven't been asked yet for that forgiveness.

    why? Because I love. smile

  20. Gennifer profile image72
    Genniferposted 7 years ago

    I always try to forgive people and do not store negative emotions in my soul. If a person does something extremely awful I just stop any relation with him or her and try not to think about this person any more. I'm an optimist, I like enjoy my life and do not waste my time and emotions on people who don't deserve it... wink

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      So someone can do something awful and you stop the relationship and this is forgiveness? What if they want to reconcile?

  21. awsydney profile image61
    awsydneyposted 7 years ago

    Forgiving is an act of love. It helps the forgiver to move forward so forgive away and it shouldn't be conditional.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Those are nice thoughts and thanks.

      But what do you specifically to answer all the questions posted?

    2. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I move forward perfectly well without forgiving. And that ,Because I don't care what have been done to me.If I  feel in the mood to fight back I do it. If not , I move on without problem. I really can't care lees.Life is too wonderful !!

      1. awsydney profile image61
        awsydneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Great attitude, holding a grudge only kills us and I don't allow time for that. Life's too short and wonderful as you correctly say.

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          cool

  22. Stylinbikerchick profile image61
    Stylinbikerchickposted 7 years ago

    My understanding is we forgive all and love all. But we don't have to like them or have a relationship with the offenders.  In fact you don't have to wait for a request of forgiveness or let the offender know you have forgiven them if it was not solicited.  Forgiveness is in the heart and thru God.  How can God forgive your trespasses when you can't forgive those who trespass against you.  Forgiveness is one of the hardest pills to swallow but just like with anything else in life the more you do it the easier it gets.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      How do you forgive and not have a relationship with someone?
      Is that what your God does with you?
      Do you forgive like He does? Restoration being the goal?
      Does He forgive without being asked like you mentioned that you do not have to wait for a request?
      Do you think you are forgiven exactly as you forgive others?

  23. Stylinbikerchick profile image61
    Stylinbikerchickposted 7 years ago

    I would also like to add that strife in you life is only hurting you not the ones who offened you.  It is hard on you physically and emotionally.  I know,,,been there, done that, got the Tshirt

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds like some deep experiences there. smile
      Thanks for saying this.

  24. Lisa HW profile image81
    Lisa HWposted 7 years ago

    Tantrum, again, I agree.   smile   

    daabie8, I don't think "forgiving" is always that beautiful a word.  Sometimes it's a cop-out word. 

    In the examples of, say, a frail elderly person in a nursing home who is routinely victimized by someone guilty of intentional elder abuse; or of someone who kidnaps a child and "does whatever" to the child; why on Earth would any human being (or God, for that matter) believe there should be forgiveness?  To spare our own minds of having to deal with the very ugly reality that this kind of stuff goes on?  Because we're afraid that if we accidentally knock over someone's treasured geraniums we  won't be forgiven if we don't forgive every last, sick, criminally-abusive, freak that victimizes? Do people honestly believe that, if there's a God, He'd give these freaks a "pass"?  I just think that pretending there's no such thing as something that should not be forgiven is a form of whitewashing evil (or something).  ("Oopsie - Grandma has been being abused at the nursing home for six months now.  Oh well, let's forgive and forget and move on and not have to burden our little heads with thinking about it."  I don't think so.  I'd rather die earlier of stress, knowing I had never deluded myself into the la-la-land of "forgetting" what "Grandma" went through; or compromise my own belief that we shouldn't just "make friends or peace with evil" and move on.)

    1. profile image0
      wordscribe41posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Beautifully stated, Lisa.  My sentiments exactly.

    2. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think forgiveness and consequences are to be together.
      I will give forgiveness and let them deal with the consequences.

      Forgiveness is not blind to someone making amends or undergoing correction.
      Some things have permanent outcomes for a single act, but I will forgive, if it is asked for and meant seiously, because I know that I could have been the one doing the act.

      1. Lisa HW profile image81
        Lisa HWposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        This is thing, though.  Much of the time most of us would not be the one doing the act.  I can tell you right now there's never been a time in my life when I've abused anybody or even intentionally just hurt someone's feelings.  If someone accidentally bumps my car in the parking lot, I'll forgive and forget; and I know I could be the one who did the same to someone else.  With the unforgivable stuff, though - no.  I've never intentionally victimized a single soul; and I'm guessing you haven't either (although I could be wrong, I suppose).  Somewhere else in this thread I mentioned a drunk and speeding driver who killed someone.  I can tell you I have never driven drunk or driven in a 35 mph zone at 70 or more mph; and I never will.  Most of us will never be a Bernie Madoff or a 911-type terrorist or even someone who drives drunk and risks innocent lives.

  25. JulietduPreez profile image89
    JulietduPreezposted 7 years ago

    If we hold on to issues and feel negative emotions around them we are only hurting ourselves. We need to forgive others in order to release ourselves and move on. If we don't forgive others (whether they want it or not), we keep ourselves trapped.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      OK that is a nice statement.
      What about the questions of the topic too?

  26. Aya Katz profile image87
    Aya Katzposted 7 years ago

    Lisa HW, I agree with you. I think some things should not be forgiven, and certainly not when there is no remorse on the part of the perpetrator.

    However, some people have a problem dealing with the fact that they can't get justice, so they would rather forgive than be racked with hatred. We are wired for revenge. The reason we suffer when a wrong goes unavenged is because there are selective pressures against letting someone get away with an atrocity. The criminal justice system was supposed to be a way to institutionalize retribution. But when so much is invested in the idea of rehabilitation, it doesn't really serve that purpose very well.

    It takes a superhuman effort to be able not to forgive and at the same time not seek revenge -- but just move on.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What if the person is remorseful. then what do you do? If they make amends?

      What if someone pays for the crime, do you forgive them?

      Is there anything someone can do that is not forgivable?
      No matter what they do to correct it?

      1. Aya Katz profile image87
        Aya Katzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Most things can't be corrected, even small errors, because we can't go back in time, and money can't make up for suffering. You can't buy forgiveness.

        But most people do find it in their hearts to forgive, when there is true remorse. It's not something the penitent has earned. It's just a feeling that can come over the person who has been wronged.

        Forgiveness is a genuine, spontaneous feeling. It can't be forced, and it can't be faked.

  27. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago

    I believe there is a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is simply the letting go of grievances, even as one lets go of a relationship. Reconciliation is of course the goal, but it's a two way street. The forgiven has to want to be reconciled, to have the relationship restored.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Exactly, the goal is reconciliation and forgiveness is offered and given if that is the goal of the offender as well.big_smile

      Did you have specific answers to the questions of the topic too?

  28. Lisa HW profile image81
    Lisa HWposted 7 years ago

    Juliet, no we don't (at least not all of us).  It's completely possible to move on "emotions-wise" without forgiving.  If someone has committed real evil intentionally, we can consider them "dead to us" and not being thinking about them at all.  At the same time, if we get the opportunity to get some kind of revenge (within the limits of the law) we can take advantage of it.  So that takes care of the "forgiving" issue - we don't forgive but we move on.

    As far as forgetting goes, unless we live on some kind of mind-deadening drugs, we aren't going to forget "what happened to Grandma"  (I never knew either of my grandmothers, by the way, so "Grandma" is made up in my case.)  Will we eventually stop thinking about it all the time? Sure.  But will we really forget?  Not if we're normal.  So that takes care of the "forgetting" issue (forgetting won't happen if we're normal; and getting our mind of it is not the same as truly forgetting.)

    I have a real-life one:  A 27-year-old young woman gets drunk, drives at 70 mph, and hits the car I'm in with my girlfriend.  She kills my 20-year-old girlfriend, robs her of her future, and forever alters the lives of her people like her mother and other family members.  She loses her license for one year and gets fined $20, because someone says you can't try her for manslaughter if she didn't intend to kill.  I'm left with no sense of justice whatsoever for my friend, and justice is sometimes the thing that helps people move on.  I can't make the court system do justice, so the only thing I have left is my own choice to either forgive or not forgive.  If I forgive then there will be no justice even "in my own heart".  I if choose to never forgive then at least I have created my own small version of justice, and that helps me to move on.  Whether I think of what that young woman (Charlene A.) brought to the life of my friend's mother and family; or someone else's Grandma being abused in a nursing home; I realize that even throwing people in prison isn't enough justice.  Somehow, to me, there just needs to also be that "abstract form of justice" of knowing that some things will NEVER be forgiven by people; and believing that if there's a God He won't forgive either.  That's where I get my "mental peace" enough not to be feeling completely frustrated and at wits' end all the time (over any number of things).  It's my way of taking whatever degree of control I have, rather than passively "making lemonade out of lemons".

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Certainly something more should have been done there, very, very sorry to hear of this total lack of justice. People do get away with crimes all to often, making it hard to move on. sad

      If you kill someone, you must be accountable for it !!
      Driving drunk is a crime and another crime was committed in the killing. The person intentionally drove drunk so anything that happened was a result of the intentions / results of being drunk. Drunks do not get let off because they were drunk. At least that is the way it should be.

      Did this person show any remorse or ask for forgiveness from the family?

      1. Lisa HW profile image81
        Lisa HWposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, she certainly didn't show any; but I think she may have just not wanted to "give us the satisfaction".  I only had one face-to-face encounter in the hall of the court for a fraction of a minute.  She made no attempt to contact the family (but in fairness, her lawyer may have told her not to).  If she was remorseful she didn't let me or the family know that.  Really, though, she just seemed grateful to have the court hearing over and get off with as little as she did.  (This was ages and ages ago.  The point is, though, that all over the world people choose to make victims of other people in one way or another.  I think the "general message" from society should be changed, almost the way attitudes toward smoking have been changed.  Instead of sending the message, "No matter what anyone ever does it can always be forgiven", I think we should send the message, "Some things are unforgivable, and you can spend 50 years in prison but still never be forgiven.  Keep that in mind."   smile

  29. profile image0
    annvansposted 7 years ago

    I always forgive and forget...no matter what the case is.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      OK good.
      Any answers to the topic questions?

  30. profile image0
    annvansposted 7 years ago

    How many times do you forgive for the same thing?


    I would forgive and forget a million times or more if I had to.  I feel that when someone does something wrong, they deserve to be forgiven no matter what.  I would always forgive and forget.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      lol Yes? What about someone torturing and killing your child in front of you, and laughing in the process? I think your statement is very shallow or  too 'new age' for my taste. lol

      1. profile image0
        annvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I still would forgive them, why would I not forgive them?  I would not sit there and think about it all the time and dwell on the bad things that they did.  I would forgive and forget.  They will be punished for it one way or another, so why should I keep thinking about it and remembering the terrible things and torturing myself??

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            The life ofyour child will not return. I think that, or you don't have children or, as I said you're very shallow and don't know how to love a child yikes You don't care he's dead ?? yikes yikes

          1. profile image0
            annvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I am not saying that I wouldnt care or be devastated about what happened.  I am saying that I would forgive who did it because I know that they will be punished later.  What good would it do me to not forgive and to torture myself too?

            1. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                lol Not forgiving doesn't mean you have to torture yourself. It seems you don't have much of a life!

  31. profile image0
    annvansposted 7 years ago

    Is there anything someone can do that is not forgivable?


    No!

  32. profile image0
    annvansposted 7 years ago

    Tantrum, if you can tell me why it would be a good idea not to forgive someone, then I will think again about my decision. 

    Ok, suppose I don't forgive them, then what?  What have I gained?

    I gotta go cook, will check later!

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If you read my posts above, you'll get your answer. But read all of them!

  33. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    So if a criminal knows he is doing wrong, he does not need to ask for forgiveness for it? Be it stealing, rape, murder, hurting a child?

    Because he knew he was doing the wrong?

  34. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    I'm not posting more in this thread. I'm sure everyone got  my opinions right. Bye !!

  35. Daniel Carter profile image90
    Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago

    Having been a severely abused child myself, I was incredibly bitter for not being able to forgive all that happened. It consumed me and was killing me. After 47 years, lots of work, I was finally able to forgive, and I freed not only myself, but the other person. I didn't have to respond in love. All I had to do was let go.

    In the process, I found that by forgiving, the chains that bound us together in the most bitter hatred finally were broken. I was armed with skills in how to protect myself form it ever happening again. Forgiveness for me simply meant that it wasn't at the forefront of my existence and who I am. It no longer mattered. That person no longer mattered. I had no ill will for that person, and it was finally a nonissue. Because it was a nonissue, it remains in the back of my memory, and I am no longer plagued with the incredible pain and victimization.

    I finally took responsibility for my life. Just MY life. By so doing, I no longer needed to hold a grudge. When we were together, I was no longer threatened by that presence. I was calm. And my calmness shook that person, oddly.

    I think forgiveness is an emotionally and physically healthy thing to do. However, in so doing, there have to be conditions for the forgiveness if both are to be at peace. I had to do that alone, without the other person's participation. It's not easy, but it's possible.

    Forgiving is about being smart. It's about not hanging on to toxic crap. It is not about making yourself vulnerable to further attacks and/or victimizations.

    My experience may be unique to some degree, but I really doubt. What I've gone through is not unique. People survive abuse. But my take on a LOT of things in life is different than so many others I've met. I've had to take the rough journey to find out for my ownself.

    I questioned everything. Every detail of my life I had to question and I had to decide for myself issues of religion, social norms and standards, and what good health meant to me, and how to achieve it. So I question the skeptics as much as I question believers. The people in life you're supposed to trust, I could never trust. None of them. Not a one. Their brains were all filled with batsh** and they made me insane.

    I had to grow up, take responsibility for my life, and figure out what sanity was, because the things that everyone else preached simply never added up. There were holes, flaws, lies and half truths all through it, and so I decided to go on my own journey and figure it out for just me.

    Sum total is that I believe in a power I will never understand in this life. It's not like anything a human could possess. Therefore, I have my extreme doubts about what people describe is "God." I believe in forgiveness in the way I described. I just don't think it's all as nearly as complex as we make it, nor do I believe that our egos, which are so good at puzzles, have figured out the puzzle of how the universe works. There are no good answers in most cases, only in a few.

    My, my, my. That was a fine ramble.

    LOL

    Must be time to sit back and laugh at myself.
    smile

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Not a ramble at all, honest, humble sharing is how I saw it.smile
      Thanks for the openness. It might help someone.

    2. profile image0
      annvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Good ramblin'  You should make a hub or a story out of this!

      1. Daniel Carter profile image90
        Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I sort of did. It's called "There's More to Surviving Abuse Than Surviving."
        However, I only touched on forgiveness and religion and why God let it all happen. It's different for everyone, I think.

  36. shamelabboush profile image70
    shamelabboushposted 7 years ago

    Some people are too coward or embarrased to apologize but they show remorse. I think we should forgive them if they are ready to be forgiven.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Forgiveness should be granted when the person makes amends, reconciliation and true remorse is all of these, not just a look on the face.
      Cowards are not to be forgiven at all, they will just do it again as I have seen.
      One must have proof of the change first.smile

  37. profile image0
    annvansposted 7 years ago

    I didn't mean the issue of abuse, but the forgiving part.

  38. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    Many are making statements and that is really great. big_smile

    Can you please answer the questions of the topic too? big_smile smile

    1. profile image0
      annvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Me?  What question are you referring to?

      1. underhiswings profile image59
        underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The ones in the OP

        How many times do you forgive for the same thing?
        How many times have you been forgiven for the same thing?
        What kind of proof do you need in order to believe the offender really seeks forgiveness?
        What kind of forgiveness do you offer?

        Do you go to the offender or wait until they come to you?

        1. profile image0
          annvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know if I can answer all of those, lol. 

          I would forgive a million times for the same thing.
          I don't know how many times I have been forgiven for the same thing.
          The proof I would need would be that the offender seems like they are sorry for doing what they did.

          Cant answer the last two, dont know. lol.

  39. Sybil Marie profile image79
    Sybil Marieposted 7 years ago

    I think we sometimes think that forgiving means forgetting.If you are standing next to me and I put my hand down on the table and you hit it with a hammer, I would forgive you,but I probably would not put my hand on the table again.
    I agree that forgiveness is more about our own state of being then about the other person or what they have done. I've heard it said that holding on to resentment/unforgiveness is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die.

  40. Lisa HW profile image81
    Lisa HWposted 7 years ago

    Sybil Marie, that goes back to the belief that it is not possible to refuse to forgive while also not steeping in one's own resentment.  It's possible to, for example, "write someone off as dead" and just move on.  It's also possible to write them off as dead, move on, but be open to the possibility that, should the opportunity present itself to get lawful revenge, you could follow up on that step as well.  smile  I guess it depends on how well someone can sort out his own emotions from his thoughts about the other person.

    1. Aya Katz profile image87
      Aya Katzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Lisa, I agree with you completely. That's my attitude, too. But it may be a matter of personality. Some people maybe can't move on unless they either forgive or get retribution.

    2. Sybil Marie profile image79
      Sybil Marieposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      My Mother was mentally ill and abusive when I was a child, I spent many years hatting her,fearing her. As an Adult I pretty much cut her out of my life ( I think sometimes the best relationship you can have with someone is no relationship at all). Ihadn't seen her in ten years until something happened to bring her back into my life three months before she died. (I can relate alot to Daniel)  I had the opportunity to forgive, and for me that had to do with God. I'm a different person now because of it. smile
        For along time I thought I would like revenge but when the time came to see her in pain it was not what I really wanted.
      Again I had been drinking the poison of resentment and it had kept me sick  along time.I had to forgive for me, not for her you see

      1. Lisa HW profile image81
        Lisa HWposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Just an observation about that sobering situation (because it certainly seems worthy of response, Sybil Marie):  I'd think if you know she was mentally ill that would be the thing that allowed you to forgive her.  I sometimes wonder, too, if it's easier for some of us to forgive someone who has harmed us than it is to forgive someone who harmed someone we see as more vulnerable (like children).  When I've written about not forgiving here I'm referring to people who have no mental illness.  People like you and Daniel have a lot to share with others who may have been through similar situations.

        1. Sybil Marie profile image79
          Sybil Marieposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Wow that's a good point Lisa! Seeing injustice done to the innocent is much harder to do! I reread what you posted earlier as well and I think what you were talking about when you said legal revenge would fall more under the umbrella of justice than revenge ( if I understand you correctly) smile

          1. Lisa HW profile image81
            Lisa HWposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I do think of it more as "justice" than "revenge".  I'm not the type who would go flatten people's tires and spend my time thinking up the next "revenge trick".  For me, if whatever someone did could be "addressed" through the court system, I'd be the first to go for that in any way I could.  If someone did something like reckless disregard in a professional capacity (that caused me big problems) I wouldn't think twice about trying to get their license taken away or suing them out of practice (again, if it was something I found unforgivable).  I'd see that as justice.  There have been times, too, when I've seen justice "just happen" (as if "from God"), and that can be satisfying too.  I just know that for me, on those few (but substantial) times when someone has done the unforgivable in my life, the thing I've needed to move on is some sense of justice.

          2. Daniel Carter profile image90
            Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Just to be clear, most all abuse is mental illness. The torture, the secrecy, the threats--it's all about mental illness. So, knowing that really doesn't make it easier to forgive a person. After all, if you are the abused child and an adult did this, it's excessively difficult for the child to understand even though he/she understands the other was ill. It doesn't take away the trauma, the continued pain, etc. However, that being said, when you realize that you are more sane, more powerful, more capable and more able to get past it and move on, the window to forgiveness begins to open.

            At least that's my experience.

            1. underhiswings profile image59
              underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I hear you I do.
              I personally know a little bit about forgiveness.
              Between my mother and father I witnessed 10 divorces while growing up.
              Add grandmother and it makes 17.

              1. Daniel Carter profile image90
                Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Your experience makes a stong point. NO ONE escapes the crap. So much of it depends on how we learn to overcome our victimhood and take responsibility for ourselves, and move forward, and forgivenss is a very liberating way to do that.

                Good points here in this thread. Thanks for bringing it up.
                smile

                1. underhiswings profile image59
                  underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  You are welcome, hope more people come back. big_smile

            2. Sybil Marie profile image79
              Sybil Marieposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Well said

  41. Lisa HW profile image81
    Lisa HWposted 7 years ago

    Aya, agreed.  Probably, when all is said and done, my "they're-dead-to me" thing; and other people's "I-forgive-them" thing amount to the same end result - mentally moving on and no longer spinning our wheels of whatever it was.  (I just find the "dead-to-me" thing more rewarding  lol )

  42. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    I personally know a little bit about forgiveness.

    Between my mother and father I witnessed 10 divorces while growing up.

    Add grandmother and it makes 17.

  43. Jerami profile image76
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I think that forgiveness is a good thing.
    ONLY because unforgiveness is heavy and as we get older it is just too heavy to carry.
    JUST CAUSE YA FORGIVE THEM DON'T MEAN THAT YA GO KNOCK ON THEIR DOOR AND SAY I DON'T CARE IF YA DO IT AGAIN,
    I'LL FORGIVE YA AGAIN FOREVER, KEEP DOING IT.

    1. underhiswings profile image59
      underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Do you have any personal answers to the OP questions or just statements?

      1. Jerami profile image76
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          That statement is an answer. I've got a thousand examples that I have experienced. Generally those that have hurt me were victims themselves of ineffectiveness that spills over onto everyone around us. To forgive them is to refuse to pick up their burden. As we get older we need to keep our wagon lightly loaded. And when we are young enough to carry extra baggage, we could have gone further and faster if we had lightened the load. To forgive is a selfish thing to do.  And yet we all still carry too much baggage

        1. underhiswings profile image59
          underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          How is forgiveness a selfish thing?

  44. underhiswings profile image59
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    Seems like the same people who want to protect the criminals also are the biggest complainers about crime!!!

  45. Jerami profile image76
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Maybe I should have said self serving. being self serving is sometimes considered to be the same as selfish. Unforgivenness is close to the same as Hate. We do not intentionally pick up hate, it just falls into our lap. "Some body MADE me get mad" etc. Every moment that we spend on thinking about hatin um is time  not spent thinking about self productive things. To forgive them is KINDA LIKE blowing um off and getting on with our lives. dumping the hate out of my wagon is making it easier for me to pull. good for me = self serving = selfish= life is better for me =  SS EE LL FF II SS HH. Some times selfish is a good thing.  Sometimes NOT

 
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