If not, then is this earth life a kind of heaven? A reflection of it, or is it really modeled more closely to hell. I don't believe you can call earth life neutral. That's not an option. Read the forums alone and we know that it's anything but neutral.
So, my train of thought goes like this:
We experience hellish things all the time on earth. It's a fact. But we don't ALWAYS suffer and we don't ALWAYS live in misery. So it's possible to learn to be happy in this existence. It's established as fact because we see people who are more often happy than not. And there are those who are more often miserable than not. We get both and all the garden varieties in between.
So is it possible for us to adapt to our circumstances and surroundings if we find ourselves in hell, and figure out how to be happy.
You can recite scriptures if you'd like, but honestly, this is a philosophical discussion based on rational, intelligent experiences and knowledge (at least that's what I'm hoping, but realize it will soon digress to another argument.) Still, I'm willing to take the risks to see what kinds of thoughts you may have that actually do make sense.
Best to all of you. Behave yourselves, but if you can't let's laugh a little more at ourselves instead of at each other.
Thin q, thin q, mary vuch.
since it is eternal damnation, you would probably at the very least get desensitized to everything and at best, start to enjoy yourself, thinking about those people up in Heaven who have nothing interesting to do beyond Forever.
My belief is that Hell is seperation from God and His love. I also do believe in what the Bible states it is, but aside from hell fire and brimstone.
I fail to see a life void of God could be "happy" in any sense of that word.
Just my thoughts
I totally agree with your thoughts...well said
You know, I know a lot of atheists who are very unhappy people.
Personally, I'm agnostic (I don't believe one way or the other), and I'm happy with that.
But all the atheists that I know (can't speak about the rest cuz I don't know them) are unhappy people. I wonder if it's related.
Well, hope I am not quoting any scripture here, but even St. Paul said he had learned how to be happy in whatever circumstances he found himself, and he got into a few nasty ones.
I think the point is, that your reality is inside of you and your mode of thinking is a determining factor.
I have followed a mystical path the last 20 years and believe that we create our own hell, whether it is in this plane of existence or another. The soul and mind of each individual chooses, and lives with what is created.
The point of life, in my view, is that the soul is to learn to make better choices and recognize the difference within self that we have a human self and a divine self. We are to raise our human self up, become more loving and virtuous as we integrate with our divine self...and like the paths of the saints and sages of east and west, learn to look beyond the human degradations, accept others where they are, but not accept what they do, rather, deal with them to hopefully raise them up as well.
I believe some people have become to accustomed to dealing with 'hell' in their life they are like the clown who is smiling on the outside but dying on the inside. To me hell is living in our mamed society where morals and scruples have all but disappeared.
I won't resite scriptures, but I will resite what Webster's New World Dictionary says about Hell. 'the state or place of total and final separation from God and so of eternal misery and suffering, arrived at by those who die unrepentant in grave sin' 'any place or condition of evil, pain, etc.'
Hell is a place and it's not on earth.
No man has any idea of what it's really like to be without God. Even the vilest of the vile (if there are such) still experience His presence. It won't be till He is FINALLY and COMPLETELY separated, that it will become all too real. And all TOO late.
But man is free to choose for himself, so if that's the case, then what if man chose to be happy despite the ultimate separation from God? Happiness and misery are a choice. Therefore, I believe it is possible to be happy in hell, because this life is a form of hell (read the headlines, look at your own life and the lives of those around you) and yet, most often, we choose to move on and try to find or make our happiness.
I personally believe this place is neither heaven or hell, and that neither heaven or hell exist anywhere except in one's own mind. All places of geographic location are neutral. The only good or bad they may have is that which we assign to them.
I have a tendency to agree with Strophios and UW, and others of similar thought on this subject:
The condition of our lives is a result of the condition of our minds. What we live is what we are experiencing in our minds. The more trash there is in our head, the more trash we put out in the world, making it hell. Clean up the trash, and we clean up the world. It's just one person at a time, learning their own personal awareness of who they truly are, and I think that's heavenly. After you get to that place in your head, it doesn't matter where you are geographically, because your are fine.
Such are my thoughts.
But Daniel, we know no other way of existence as Gods spirit is here and has been since the beginning. We experience the happiness God brings and has brought into this life. I do not believe life to exist happily with the spirit of God void form it. To live completely separated from God is something we cannot even fathom yet alone conclude to be happy with.
Some people believe they are happy not believing in God. Ok thats fine. But if God were to be completely gone from the earth or anywhere for that matter I believe there would be nothing left but fear, hate etc. All the evil and no love, no kindness, no compassion. I believe we now know and experience these things (love, kindness, compassion and yes, happiness) because of God being present and ever present in and of this life.
Hell to me is void and separation from God which would bring a life full of nothing good, nothing loving, etc. That to me would be torture and torment and nothing about that would or should make anyone, happy.
I feel that earth is really hell and in order to make it to what we call Heaven, we need to transform our energy into pure consciousness with the process of meditation. We need to all merge together and become one with the Universe. Not all people understand this, and we need to make it relevant to society to start making this the real meaning of "heaven on earth", as mentioned by Daniel.
Thanks, Jesica Holzhauer Butler
Actually, under the correct interpretation....Earth is Heaven.
Hell was describe as being the center of the Earth and if you tried to live there....you would not live.
I'm not sure what you are trying to convey here...that Earth is Heaven or that I am wrong with my assessment of Hell? Either way, I don't care! I was simply lightening up the mood with a dark comment.
And furthermore, I think I was going for the internal hardships a person must face during their lifetime. These hardships may, in fact, be a 'hell-like' experience.
If you keep postponing your happiness, you are never going to be happy.
you are adding conditions to be happy. It is you who have made the conditions.It is you who will change the conditions ( because the conditions are never the same through out).
So drop the conditions and be happy now .
If you have not tried "Art of living". I assume it is the right time for you to do it.
: Well I believe Jesus died for me ,and He loves me unconditionally,in fact hes my best friend, how could I not talk about him.
No scriptures just someone I believe in
Scripture can be used like an ointment or vinegar ,I just prefer to engage my brain first before doing either
Doesnt always work ,but hey my hearts in the right place.
Why did you have to go and ask for intelligent philosophical discussion? Now, nobody is posting here!
I've never liked the idea of 'hell on Earth' since it gives us a ready excuse to treat the planet and its other inhabitants (human and otherwise) like some kind of temporary thing - a loaner, if you will. (I'll save the Gaia stuff for another discussion!)
I do believe that people create their own 'hell' right here on Earth by programming themselves with negative input. Have you checked out Masaru Emoto's experiments with water? To me, they are quite indicative of the very tangible effects our thoughts can have on ourselves and our world.
I think the only 'devil' out there is man when he is unaware of who he is. Man who doesn't live up to his potential to be a loving and accepting being. This, to me, may or may not include Jesus or any other prophet or messiah. How someone comes to a place of love and inner peace is his own journey and cannot be dictated by someone outside of him.
I think we most definitely control our own happiness - and I refer specifically to those of us fortunate enough to live in developed, free (or freeish) countries simply because not narrowing it that way just opens up for a whole other philosophical debate...
Many people wander around in their own self-created 'hell.' I do believe that the hell they live in is of their own constructs, and its borders reach as far as that individual allows them to.
Well, if you made it to hell then you wouldn't have to worry about death anymore.
I don't think we can really say. We are limited to this reality or what is possible for us to experience at this time. A baby's version of hell is when they need to be burped. They have no concept of the hot oven until they get burned. By comparison the burping is not a big deal.
I fear I have too few original thoughts on this matter, but I can recommend a couple of books that were written in an attempt to grapple with this issue.
1. The Christ Clone Trilogy, by James BeauSeigneur
(A 3 novel series about the End Times). Much, much better than the Left Behind series. I believe near the end of the book, one of the Christian believers says about his dad, "I think the reason Dad did not accept God's free gift of salvation is that Dad just wouldn't be happy in Heaven. In the end, Dad refused to let God be God." (My bad paraphrase, but something close. I don't have the book in my hand)
2. In Heaven As On Earth, by the late Dr. M. Scott Peck.
Another attempt to capture the ideas of heaven and hell. A novel which has many flaws, and is too closely autobiographical, but one that is worth reading nonetheless. I suspect a heavy C. S. Lewis influence.
Well, when I was religious I thought of earth as a purgatory--a testing ground.
As for hell, which I perceive is quite gruesome, and carnage filled if it existed, I'd adapt. I'd be one of those Hellraiser cenobites that would torture, dismantle and slaughter for a living.
No biggie being as apathetic as I am.
But, I don't think I'll have to worry about it.
If you reject love, then wherever you are is a tormenting place....like a hell.
You can be here in torment or "there" and be in equal torment.
The afterlife as it were changes nothing.
Death changes nothing.
Living in love is not changed by death.
Rejection of love is not changed by death.
Reject love here, the rejection becomes your (((((echo)))))
One cannot be happy without love, nor can one get use to the torment. It's really just a denial of truth.
I'm going to have to reference Camus on this. He wrote an essay entitled "The Myth of Sisyphus" dealing with the philosophical problem of suicide: if one realizes that life has no inherent meaning or purpose, is the appropriate response suicide? He concludes by saying "The struggle itself...is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
I think this applies well here. To simply revel in the joy of being, to confront the absurdity of the situation and accept it, to live through it, that will allow happiness even in hell.
I think you are right. The human condition requires balance. You can't feel too good, or too bad, before you start to swing back in the other direction. That is why the idea of Hell, or Heaven, is so unbelievable to me. There are no absolutes.
I was born lived in hell of all humanity from street life drugs all hell that can come my was has. hell in thirty years became my name in street life all is hell from rape to over dose to addicted children at birth gangs shooting death theft more then human life could imagine.
I was happy when god found my sorry self in hell to bring hope faith trith life birth of God Jesus the holy spirit for all people nations on earth.
Hell I live with every day as I see the human horror of the war death hate of races human based religions young children of God taught to be human weapons .
My father died my mother died my dog died in year apart. I walk with God Jesus the holy spirit in real world life in hopes some day all humanity will know God Jesus the holy spirit care about all human life. The birth right truth freedom life love of God without sale teachings of any human religion.
we all bleed the blood of Jesus born of God free of life truth rights dignity love.
Until by new world faith of God all people come home to God teachings of Jesus freedom peace life with the holy spirit. Yet by God I am taught it must be the whole human race in God Jesus the holy spirit by freedom of choice.
Then comes the true loving power glory kingdom of God on earth with god Jesus the holy spirit with all human holy truth science life mike
I think it was C.S. Lewis who once said that those in Hell would become so used to it, that if offered the chance to escape they would refuse to take it.
While I'm of the belief that Hell is not a literal fire, but a metaphorical burning fire, I can't see anyone becoming happy about it. Used to it, and complacent, yes, but not happy.
Interesting book that was, The Great Divorce. Except what I got out of that book was the idea that the people in Hell had already gotten used to it (or the sins and attitudes that brought them there) while they were alive- and that if anyone's in Hell at all, it's because they're too comfortable with their misery.
I don't believe in Hell on Earth. Going back to the very gist of Genesis' creation stories, the earth was created good. We were given the means to take care of creation, to do otherwise, and to choose between the two. If the Earth is in any way hellish, it's because we make it that way.
Hell is REAL, is in the center of the earth, and will surface one day onto the earth as a literal lake of fire near Jerusalem to torment the wicked in the presence of the righteous living on earth in the New Jerusalem. The bible says to not befriend the world, "whosoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" because it is not following God's laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, God having delivered the world to the Devil as is stated in Luke ch 4 in those exact words. Go ahead and obtain your spouse by befriending a satanic world and see what happens to you after you REALLY enjoy yourself here...
I do not think morals have got any worse though. Look in the bible or Quoran.
If we did, it would become our heaven, wouldn't it?
I think Rochelle Frank got it perfectly right when she said 'your reality is inside of you'.
I believe that's exactly right. There are people who seem to have it all, yet in their minds are miserable and unhappy. They live in their own private hells, no matter how good their surroundings may seem to another. Therefore, ultimately, heaven or hell lies within us, not in our circumstances.
Victor Frankl got at this in his book, "Man's Search for Meaning," where he watched so many die in Nazi concentration camps. In the end, one had to be at peace with him/herself, and that is how hell was avoided, and some people actually flourished in such horrible circumstances.
if you get bored of being burned, then you'll find ways to amuse yourself. not exactly happiness though.
Now let's see, I been blowed up twice in the oil patch. Got caught on fire twice there too. Broke my back once and some ribs. Was in some hellish car wrecks a time or two. Two bad marriages [hell] got fired a few times for telling them to get effed. Wrecked my motorcylce once and a car ran over me on ice. Had a case of crabs once, broke my thumb in a fight and got a few scratches. Got my nose almost bit off in another fight. A whole lot of bad things happened to me after turning 43. I been in hell for a long time and am quite happy at the moment. Been to heaven more than a few times, much nicer.
Wow.. that happened to me too-- well, not all of it-- but I did break my thumb once.
You, dear sir, do make me laugh. But only because of the way you write about these horrible things. Your perspective is the most refreshing about the hell you've gone through. I so like that about you.
And for the record, I'm sorry for the horrible things you've gone through. Truly. Not unlike some of my own experiences.
After suffering terribly through so many horrible things, knowing that my whole life was hell, I've decided it's simply what I want to make of it.
The idea that separation from God is hell is completely accurate to me. However, the older I get, the more I realize it's not God that goes away and separates from us. It's just us who separates from him. It's our choice.
So I don't think God sends us to hell. I think we're more than happy to go there without his help. Therefore, it's an illusion that we are actually separated from him. It's our illusion that we can separate from him. If one believes the influence and power of God can permeate the universe, then he is everywhere as scripture and most religious dogma teaches. That only gives me more understanding to that we create out own hell. The way to overcome it is actually regain our awareness of our relationship to Him.
Many more thoughts, but this is the basic gist for me.
Very thoughtful comments here. I like this. It's stretching me to think differently and deeper about many things.
As soon as you start to enjoy yourself it's not hell anymore
Walking in love towards all mankind and regarding others more important than you, releases you from the torment.
I just read Ralwus's post and if we had people like that in hell, it would be pretty interesting, wouldn't it? Dangerous - he sounds like an accident waiting to happen - no, wait - he already did happen. Anyway, I can't imagine sitting on a cloud singing all day. I get tired of my own singing. My cat likes it a lot, though.
Maybe an hour or so of reading your bible and getting a real definition of what hell is will help you answer this question.
The things we go through here is caused by the sin of this world; we are blessed to have a God that doesn't want us to suffer but knows it is going to happen so he will help you through it if you allow him.
I am blessed to know him and live my life through him; and could never even imagine living in hell...trust me you won't be living or adapting you will be suffering more than imaginable.
What sin is there about mental illness, mental handicaps, deformities, etc? Those conditions are truly hell for those who suffer with them. What repentance will there ever be so that these people will no longer suffer IN THIS LIFE with these horrible conditions.
With respect, I strongly disagree.
IDK. I haven't entered hell yet, and I haven't met someone who did and came back to tell the story.
BTW, I liked sanctus's post: http://hubpages.com/forum/post/373655
Are you serious.....why live in hell to begin with? you've made a conscious choice, so I am gathering you have to deal with the repercussions of those choices. We all are aware of the choices we make whether or not we want to believe or accept them for what they are. There is that thing called red flags. We choose to ignore them because of what we "desire" or because of what we think we need! Then when the heat gets turned up we complain, have regrets....the list goes on, and before you know it, hell is your home!
Truth is, we create all experiences, but we are rarely trained to do it in a way that benefits us, so we must often take a remedial course!
Before you try to save my soul for saying that, let me tell you I am shamanic, and why yes I have met the one you call Jesus (that's actually a Greek translation, which is why it sounds a bit like Zeus) and his family too in my travels, we are on great terms.
I think it's a shame to glorify a messenger, then ignore or corrupt the message! Every great being who has tried to help us has said something similar: this place is illusionary! Science is beginning to see that too!
As solid as the world seems, the atom is mostly "empty" space. The very act of observing an experiment changes the outcome. Quantum science is pretty rapidly replacing our older concepts.
The choice is yours, where do you want to live? Get started now to make it so!
Separation from God is separation from your own Divinity. I speak of the hellish stuff that has happened to me in similar terms. Stuff happened, it wasn't fun but now it's a different day and you have a choice.
I'm still working on my hub, so don't look for my stuff just yet, but it's coming,
(typed from a state of being that bears no resemblance to hell unless I go looking for trouble)
I have a tendency as I get older to look at things similarly as you, Deeity. LIfe is an illusion. There is a philosophy that even our being separated from God is an illusion. It's just our own personal illusion, and when we become more aware and "awaken" we realize that we were never separated. The illusion of hell is just that. An illusion. But it may take us eons to figure it all out and realize these things, but since time is irrelevant in eternity, it was only a moment. As if our separation was like we were in another room dreaming of this life, only to awaken and realize we are with God, he is with us, and we only dreamed it.
Odd, startling paradigm shift, but if one can wrap their brains around this, you begin to see why Jesus was able to forgive so freely and so completely. He didn't buy in to the Illusion. He forgave so that he could be free of bitterness, trauma, and everything negative, and showed us the way to do it also.
Yes... I believe hell is a perception and our happiness comes from within.
With millions of children starving, being murdered and dying of disease your god does nothing.
These children are not the vilest of the vile, but the purest of the pure and the heart of love.
Your idea that god answers prayers and is present, and that the sufferers are somehow guilty makes me see how little you care for truth or morals.
Not even the vilest person would allow such suffering. Your belief system is nonsensical and your god hateful.
Sure. Blame it on God! Blame it on believers! Just remember this, that we HUMANS have the ability, and capacity to change it, but NOT the will to do so.
I don't know if you saw the newspaper (many years ago now). It was in the Telegraph, or some well know edition. On the front cover was a seriously malnourished Ethiopian mother crying, holding her dead child, who appeared to be 10-12 yrs old. He had obviously starved to death.
On the fourth page of the same paper, there was a small story about one of the best ever wheat harvest Australia ever had. It was a BUMPER crop.
With the story there was a picture of dump trucks dumping all that wheat into the sea, because it had no market value.
Those who can won't. Those who want to can't, due to lack of resources.
We have hit on a point of partial agreement here! I do agree the will is mostly lacking. I also remember a series on all the world leaders and their illnesses.
A simple neurotransmitter may be the answer to having the will to do good.
Humans with a balanced brain chemistry do not hurt others.
Unfortunately it seems we all lack seratonin and dopamine uptake.
The other point of interest here is the galvanic probe, which changes hateful behavior as long as it keeps this part of the brain "short circuited"
I have to finish here. I have some work to do.
On your point about the brain etc. I see your point, BUT, the proposition you make is (virtually) unachievable. Millions cant afford food, let alone the kind of treatments you suggest.
I seriously believe that the Gospel produces changed lives, and good outcomes for all.
You might remember the work of groups like World Vision, Compassion and the like. They go fro changing hearts and minds and the root causes of lack in their communities. Such things as water, education, medicines etc. See ya next time.
The thing I struggle with is that if I do end up going to hell, it's apparently for eternity.
Eternity is a bloody long time. So apparently God is the type of being who throws a person in hell for ETERNITY (what is eternity? Apparently only God understands the magnitude of that. I presume its a VERY long time) just because they didn't worship him? To be honest I don't want to believe in a nasty pasty thing that I can't see, hear or communicate with, and then is going to throw me in hell for it forever. Its a bit extreme if you ask me.
But then again, unfortunately I'm not God (shocking, I know) so I guess I wouldn't know.
If hell was anything though, I believe it would be isolation. I believe eternal loneliness would be the soul's greatest torture.
I personally hope I return to whatever I was before I was born. I didn't seem too bothered by it obviously.
I guess we'll all have to just wait and see!
I like the old saying 'Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company'
I suspect that most of the really interesting people this planet has produced have not followed the TOS of the major religions enough to get in upstairs, and so have warranted leaving this planet on the down escalator.
As a lapsed Roman Catholic, I get an immediate 'Go to Hell, Do Not Pass Go and Do Not Collect £200 card' just for not going to mass or confession in the last few decades.
I truly believe that no compassionate being, including God, would think up hell in the first place, let alone send people they are supposed to love there, and for eternity!
First, I think the question is incongruent. For me hell and happy do not exist together - to not be happy is to be in hell and for all of those who take their defination of hell from a literal description in the bible - this also applies. However, since I harbor a theory that our time on earth is a learning experience - a time to learn to interact with each other, a time to learn to love our God and a time to mature in ourselves before taking on our more adult souls, "hell" takes on a whole different persona. With tongue in cheek humor then, the possiblity of having to repeat these grades scares the hell out of me.
It depends on if there is a Red Lobster, a gym, books, sports, and guitars. If not, I've got a lot of learnin' to do.
Sorry couldn't resist
according to wikipedia
Hell, Michigan is an unincorporated community in Putnam Township of Livingston County in the U.S. state of Michigan. The community is near the border with Washtenaw County, about 15 miles (24 km) northwest of Ann Arbor. Hell is situated five miles (8 km) west of Pinckney via Patterson Lake Road. The community is served by the Pinckney post office with ZIP Code 48169. The unofficial population is 266.
So to answer the question "Could you live in hell and ever learn to be happy" I'm pretty that that's do-able, give me a computer, internet connection, a big pile of books, a little vinno occasionally, visits from hubbers......yup Hell Michigan would do just fine I'm sure.
@ Z: I think I'm with you on this, my friend!
@Zsuzsy: As I understand it, Hell, MI freezes over quite regularly, thus rendering one favorite little cliché completely impotent.
Thanks! I like this approach!
Sorry Daniel I just could not resist when I saw your thread.
Just had to breeze in and wreak havoc. (The devil made me do it)zs
not being smart here, as i don't believe in hell. Isn't hell a burning fire, in some people's mind
Hell is fine. There should be more fire extinguishers and paper towels though.
Naaah I think Satan and myself would head but all the time, and he wouldnt like me spreading the Gospel, in his home town, it makes him feel like a looser, which he is, and those that follow the red piper with horns
Hell is the grave. Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I think you are speaking of the Lake of Fire.
The good things of this world is a shadow of heaven yet this world is organized against God and his righteousness ( just look at the prominent Illuminati). Hell is described as pitch dark, no water, having very torturous beasts, a place of anguish and despair, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. I don't think that one could ever become accustomed to that level of misery
Don't you just love it when a spammer comes in and writes something that doesn't even pertain to the thread?
YAY the spammer has been erased from among us. Now back to yuor regularly scheduled Forum
I got news for you guys - Nanette and her friends swing with the ladies, too. I have been hit by her and a couple of her friends... some of her girl friends live in refugee camps, and really need your help to "be free" so watch out for them, too.
...and to answer your original question - been there, done that, burnt way too many t-shirts! No fun. Didn't seem to be bad when things first started, but sure turned out that way...and being happy is so relative - I also don't believe I was truly happy, just fooling myself.
Hell is discriptive notation of hell is deleruim the mulification of thought amonjg the dire need to the epilog of dire straights of knowledge propelling you past into road rage to the hyperphonic paradigm of hell of the firey hell as you pass over in your sleep, in the ingredience of heaven is the beginning of life past the histeiria, into the moderation we are the sounds of hell or heaven in the past reference of passages of biblical philosophy of solitude to the focal solidarity of the collected souls past the point of a pen, heaven can mean a little different things,but to say heaven beggots heaven is to say smile at instead snare at, pray for with the multiplicity, of laugh with, instead snore at, in the exchange od ideals references, is the heaven of the internet paragrm of logical simulations of heaven across the forums of logistics, is the run-on past the paradoxial paradigm, of logical self esteme to worry, instead of laughing is the magnitude past the fraim we are the moderators of our dreams, to our own dreams of logical feferences, of internet progress, to the more the?
Heaven is defined by the smile of another persons eye to smiley face across the flurtation of another womans mind to the smile of childs mind to the, moral essence of religion of Am I My brothers Keepr of life longevity, in the focus of longevity, we will stand as family once aqgain on Mount OOlympus as a memoir of lost logical extreme just play and laugh all day among the earthly languge of rush to the road rage I gota get my kids to school or to socer game to just aqppearing at the same soccer game with the laughter of how the children of earth are really growing past the eys of your angels eyes.
hmm I will read this post again, it is just me or I need to read all your post twice??
not quite yet! only when we're ALL here together!!! now..that's hell...!
Hell lot of hubbers, they come in all moods, temper and politeness, LOL
If hell is with all of you, then count me in!
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