So often I see people asking for proof, that God exists.
"Evidence. If we could just have some, we would believe." (Or similar).
My question then is "Just what kind of proof/evidence would you want, to (help you) believe?"
OK, let's say I want to walk on water. I reckon that's easier (and less environmentally damaging) than moving mountains. So, I try, and fail. Why? The Bible says with faith I can move mountains (or, by implication, walk on water). Clearly, the answer is, I can't do it because I do not have faith.
But, my friend dj, you do!
So, within the month, please post on you-tube a decent quality video of yourself walking on water. Nike style - just do it, ok?
If you have signed testimony from a few reliable witnesses, and perhaps as well as the official video, a few mobile phone takes from different angles, etc., then yes - I will accept that as proof.
But if you come back to me with the standard cop-out response that it is a sin to tempt Providence, but you could do it if you really had to, then I will be unimpressed.
Are you up for the simple challenge?
BTW, the water need not be deep or choppy. The shallow end of your local swimming pool is fine. Bon chance
Oh, and ice is not acceptable!!
Para , you took the story literally , it was meant as an example, not uncommon in many inspirational messages I might add too.
Have you not in your life moved mountains? ( of fear, doubt,anxiety,problems) perhaps?
Another cop-out. People believe that Jesus walked on water literally, not metaphorically. Such metaphorical mountains as I have moved, have not required faith in God. My challenge is a fair one.
I am not people. I am me.
Am I under interrogation here ,because you need evidence , I think not;)
No worries. Aka-dj asked what readers would accept as evidence. I responded to him. You challenged and interrogated me, not vice versa. My apologies if you started the conversation by mistake
I asked you a question Para, I opologise if you found that challenging.
Careful Eaglekiwi. I am with you - but when you go proclaiming that creation is literal and moving mountains is not to be taken literally, you are treading on thin ice. I will pretend you never mentioned it. I suggest you do the same.
Hi para. Thanks for your well considered response. Two points.
1) Jesus already DID the walking, and it was seen, and reported by observers. Yes it happened 2000 +/- years ago, but is none the less valid today. I believe it happened, and I believe the report of the incident. You obviously don't.
2) Nowhere in the Bible am I (or anyone else) expected to walk on water as a "sign" or evidence of God's existence. Also I have to admit that I do not have enough faith to do it. Mostly, because I see no need for that in my life. However, that does not negate my belief that God performs miracles. The onus of evidence is NOT on believers, but on God. He chose His way to reveal Himself, and you either follow His ways, or NOT.
If you have a Bible, read the following three references. (I don't want to copy and paste)
1 Cor. 1;19-
Hi dj - that's a perfectly good answer. I know there are people who believe in latter-day miracles. Many of these are medical. But most often they take the form of 'miracle' recoveries that could just as easily be classed as remission, a natural phenomenon. It's rare for someone to grow a new leg following an amputation. We could ask ourselves why miracles are selective in this way??
We've had similar conversations before, so we don't need to rehearse it again. My position is simply that the more extreme the claim, the stronger the evidence needed before I'll believe it. Thus Jesus walked is one thing; Jesus walked on water is quite another.
If you really know him; You won't have to beleive in him!!!!
And if you know him you would know that
A lot of words and remembering and saying scripture is not what it takes to comvince a skeptic of anything.
Ya caint see it unless, ya want ta see it.
no reply Jerami?
I do not remember
hearing any TRUTH that is more uninterpretated than my TRUTH
prove that we are behind our decisions. creation and existence is worthless with no value thats why we ask for proof. Can we prove that we should raise our children and not throw them away into a dumpster? can you prove why we are hungry?anyways ofcourse we ask for proof because the media and our daily associations are valueless more and more now that we have commercial conveniences available to masses. we went from ignorant religious wars to greedy comercial resource hogging individualization. but before...who knows I guess you have to feel it.
How about a miracle? Not a mysterious,awe inspiring miracle, but one which should already have taken place. The event I am thinking of would be this: All of those cults which believe in the Bible should form one group, one church, and all worship together. Let them all agree on the same things. Let them get their stories straight about exactly who is right about God.
I think this would convince me more than anything!
Funny you should say that , because thats excatly what Jesus implored and instructed so many times over n over again.
If you have love one for another , I will draw all men unto me.
I guess it takes time to grow in wisdom ,and we all are humans after all ie slow learner
Is there any contrary opinion on the reality of Evil spirit?
i was just wondering .people see evil all the time >so its easy to say that there is evil in the world.Because it is tangiable.And back in Jesus time it was easy for people to say that there is the son of God because he was tangable
I've never witnessed an evil spirit, just evil people.
point taken. But an evil spirit must reside in them for them to be evil. I would think?..Yet it is still a tangiable matter.So my opint was that if people belive in evil wouldnt they belive in Good.And if they do then who or what do they belive in if not Jesus?
No, I don't think an evil spirit "must" reside in evil people. There were evil people long before the Christian god existed. Man is simply a higher form of animal, still retaining some of the baser instincts inherited 500,000 years ago from our ancestors. Some humans act on these instincts more than others.
LOL!! yeah hes always a step ahead that guy
Why did you add to my quote?
All I said was "already happened"
I neve said this man!!!
It says in the bible that God will not perform any miricles in this time> Because of peoples lack of faith in him>
I fused with the Light or god or got enlightened and thats when I believed, got my proof or evidence.
They too look for enlightenment or real proof and so should everyone.
Well 70,000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun in Portugal in 1917. This came with a message from heaven, actually a warning. Here's a short video on it. If you are interested I will post more.
70,000 people is very likely to be a gross exageration. Photos relating to this so called 'miraculous event' show nothing like that volume of people in attendance. Experts who have studied the photos put the true number between 10k-30k.
Secondly, you need to get a handle on the psychology of religious frenzy. It's highly likely that most people there were overtly religious. They had travelled far and were expectant & excited to see the work of God. If these kinds of thoughts weren't enough to whip them into a frenzied, fanatical bunch of religiionists, then I don't know what would. They had primed themselves, collectively as a group, for something amazing to happen.
Also, the year was 1917, many of the technologies we have today to explain abnormal occurrences did not exist back then. So, lets look at the facts:
a) Possibly 30,000 fanatical religionists all gathered in one place.
b) Many psychologically primed for something 'miraculous' to happen.
c) Ignorant of modern day technologies that could explain unusual phenomena.
d) Mass hysteria generated when one person shouts..."I see something, the sun is dancing!" Everyone then sees the sun dancing, when in fact it's doing nothing of the sort.
You know, sensible, intelligent explanations can be offered to so much that many (well, religious doo-lally types) view as miracles.
Amazing how one sees something and two see it totally differently.
I haven't seen anybody say anything like: "Evidence. If we could just have some, we would believe." (Or similar)
Do you have Evidence of such foolishess?
Or are we to 'believe' your intimation that help is required to make an informed decision?
I dont think its foolish at all.
I required evidence to reach the conclusions I did about Creation, I just didnt have enough faith to beleive the evidence ,that particles randomly came together ,or that Scientific facts confirm the complexities of biology.
It didnt just happen, it has an order , a sequence of events, a purpose to re-create.
My thinking precisely, Eaglekiwi. I don't understand the big bang theory or that evolution twaddle either. So we must have been created by God. SImple. Well done. Great explanation.
Not sure what other evidence anyone would need.
I always thought that if there was a God how would he manifest himself to me. Can you believe that! What an arrogant ass I was to think such a thing. I don't think I ever will understand or be able to proove to someone else his existence.
It was once explained to me by a much wiser man than myself that think of yourself as God for a moment and you have made a table, a chair or something useful and pleasing to you. The problem comes when you would expect the chair or table to understand you. The plight of man is to try and understand the spiritual while still living in the physical.
That argument reduces to - this is too hard for my little brain, so God did it. Your guru doesn't sound hugely wise to me.
Ssshhhh EK looks like you're in a bit of a hole.. Wanna paw to get you out?
I posted the thread late last night and went to bed.
I was not really looking for a conversation, but rather genuine answers from those who always seem to be asking for evidence or proof, as per the OP.
Thanks to all of you for commenting,BUT... as usual, most contributors went off topic. I have no plans to answer any of them.
Believers often describe a god that wouldn't deign himself to address each of us personally. Does he want a relationship or not? If god exists and is omnipotent, he could certainly reveal himself in a way that would convince us. Preachers and prophets claim god addresses them routinely. So, what gives? Do you serve a a god that likes to play hide and seek? And of course, according to some, those that don't seek - burn.
I don't negate your choice to not believe and while I don't have any proof of Gods' existence for you to ponder I wonder what could be all the hoopla and want to find out more. Faith is a choice not a demand that ca be made by others. I will not judge you by it.
Nor will I judge you for your belief choices. I was once a man of faith myself, however, to quote the minister turned atheist Dan Barker, I "Lost faith, in faith."
God does desire a personal relationship with each and everyone of us.I do not know the mind of God ,but I know his intentions for me are for good.
God is not a man (or woman) therefore his ways are not our ways.
He says Seek and you will find . Are you really seeking or merely researching?
If you seek Him with all your heart and all your mind , He will be found.
As for your comment on Do you serve a God that likes to play hide n seek....Of course not.
Jesus walked among men as man and they still didnt believe He was who He said he was anyway.
Yes. This one speaks the Truth also. You cannot know the Ways of Him. He is beyond your grasp. And He walked on Water. Metaphorically anyway. LIke it says in the bible when We were created - metaphorically - with Evolution.
Well Done, Excellent Cop out. Don't mention the metaphorical stuff. No one noticed. Really. Moving Mountains - metaphorical. Jesus walked - not metaphorical. Good. Excellent.
Quit being so paranoid ,lighten up my friend.
I didnt come to debate the Bible , I believe it is the authority period.
Another question to answer a post a couple of pages back
You know, I wonder if you remember writing this post.
In that post you stated,"So, it is time for me to stop interacting here. I will leave you in peace to congratulate each other about how much you "love" everyone and looking forward to the party you will be enjoying in heaven."
So what happened? I didn't agree with much that you ever said, but I always thought you at least had integrity. I guess not.
How do you know that God's intentions for you are good? Has he spoken to you personally? I want to know what makes you so confident that God exists and how you know that his intentions are indeed good.
As far as Jesus goes, are we just supposed to take the Bible's word for it that he existed, that he said the things it claims he said, and that he was who he claimed to be? Only a massive amount of faith could buy into that, and I'm glad to say that I don't have any. I am a faithless rationalist and unapologetically so.
I agree with David. There is us(congregation), the middleman(preacher) and God. In all accounts of odds and probabilities the middleman is a con artist, and there is no God. That is why God never materializes. He can't because he's imaginary. There is nothing that could ever make me believe in the Christian god, but if there were a god, in general, we would have no doubt. Really. None of you atheist would have any doubt, because God would be very clear on that.
i don't believe that those who don't seek burn.......
we can speak to god at any time of day and he hears us, we have faith to understand he hears us..... that is just how it is..... he cares about evryone that is my belief
Religion is in a terrible spot.
If one says they believe in god, they must believe the the bible.
If they believe the bible then they have to believe all of it.
To believe all of it the have to believe the thousands of threats, acts of rape and torture, the horror and hell, fire and brimstone is for someone else to suffer, and so the bible has then to be interpreted to mean this and the enemies of god defined.
Each person of faith then has to decide what the truth is in what they read.
This is so ridiculous that voluntary ignorance (called for in the bible of course) is required to believe such a crazy logic.
Religion is fear based on threats made by a book nobody can agree on the meaning of.
That is nothing new for human beings not to agree on anything?
When did they ever?
And I am not afraid of God, I call Him Father , He has never hurt me or lied to me but religious people have, and unbelievers and yes even Christians -they are not perfect , I am not perfect.
God is perfect. His Love is perfect.
And perfect love casts out fear.
I guess its a personal experience ,and not anything you learn or can quote especially from any book ( although the Bible confirms many experiences, and demonstrates Gods character.
Of course the Bible contains all the things Ernest mentions , why wouldnt it , it is after all about mankind and God.
But you also leave alot of other things out , not objective now is it ?
For those who are not certain they got every word of the bible right before they post.
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Now why would I not want to worship this god?
Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and at the same time...... needy, insecure, hateful, violent.
God or neurotic man?
Faith is NOT a "proof" because it is the substance of something hoped for and the evidence of something NOT seen. Faith is the evidence within you, that is the proof. You just know.
So I offer no proof, no need to, you either have faith or you do NOT.
I do not trouble others or myself with trying to show proof, I do not care to as it is a waste of time.
I say what I have to say and if it believed with and in faith, then fine, if not, then fine.
No BIG deal to me. It is not me who is calling or choosing anyone in the first place, nor can I impart faith or grant them repentance either.
The truth is I believe that we are human beings prone to wanting physical evidence. Now as a believer, I believe that God is evident throughout His creation in and throughout all He has made. I can feel Him all around me everyday. You do not have to believe me when I say that, I know its true. I know I have heard His voice. Again, does that make you believe? probably not. But whatever.
To me the more science they apply to try to refute God, the more He becomes revealed to us.
I know what you are saying but this does not mean everyone feels him the way you do.You have your proof but this doesn't equate to everyone's proof.
I have seen god but I know everyone hasn't and I cannot force my views onto anyone or expect everyone to understand what I am saying.
I get you but I cannot get where you infer that I was expecting everyone or anyone to feel the same way as I do about it. I think I pointed it out clearly enough that these are my beliefs whether anyone shares them or not.
To each His own
...which is why i am more inclined to listen to what you have to say because you don't force your viewpoint onto others. you just speak your piece and let them mull it over for a while.
i kind of like that.
I was an atheist and didn't believe in god no matter what anyone said so I understand this world is made this way , some believe and some don't.
Like the Buddha when asked for proof he said" nature is my witness" he couldn't give his proof to someone else.
The Buddha and greatest of prophets cannot give you proof.
Jesus was killed as his proof was not good enough for everyone.
NO. He was killed for His claim to divinity.
The real proof that He ACTUALLY was who he claimed to be, was being raised from the dead...BODILY!!!
He was an enlightened one or Brahmin meaning knower of Brahma or god something everyone didn't believe same as claiming divinity.
An enlightened one says I am the Light.
There is one story of how he escaped and came to India and settled in Kashmir so your real proof is invalid.
Today I claim my divinity in the same way some believe and some do not.
NAHH I don't believe that!
NAHH I don't believe this either!
I doubt you know what you are talking about!
If you really knew Jesus, His claims and teachings, you COULD NEVER say something like this.
Then why would my work be ranked over most editions of the Holy Bible?
Like I said some understand who I am and some like you do not.
Jesus faced exactly the same problem
Since you claim to know more than me you should be ranked next to Bible and Quran and not me
Pride speaks like this.
I have NO writings to equal, or outrank the Bible. Don't care to compete, thank you.
Exactly you have no writing to compete or outrank the Bible while I do. Even if you try you don't have the knowledge to do so and right now you are no competition for me
Foolish pride tells a person ranked next to the Bible that he doesn't know what he is talking about
That's what I said!
I still think you really need to read the Bible. Especially the life of Jesus. You might just learn something.
You are NOT EVEN on the next page, (to Him).
What did John the Baptist say? (about Jesus)......
You are blind and even if I show you I am right next to him , give you proof , you keep saying you are not= fanaticism.
You will not understand the depth of the Bible like I do since you dont know god and I do.
I teach humanity on god now the same way Jesus did in his times, there is absolutely no difference between us .
Foolish pride that's all, you have no idea what god is or the meaning of enlightenment or the meaning of I am the Light .
As stupid as Usmanali saying everyone should convert to Islam and Christianity is evil, you guys are fanatic brothers.
Yes that is true. HE said HE is GOD and that is why they killed HIM and they told HIM those very words. "we want you dead because you being a man claim to be GOD."
"The Yehudim (religious leaders of the Jews) answered him, "We don't stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God."" John 10:33
HE also said "glorify ME Father with the glory I had with YOU in the beginning" and it is written "GOD shares HIS glory with no man"...Jesus was NOT a man, but was GOD in human form.
Many prophets suffered for claiming their divinity. Zaratushtra was jailed for fourteen years , many didnt undertsnd Krishnas divinity or Ramas divinity, many mocked the Buddha, Muhammad had to fight to defend himself, Guru Nanak was called mad by his family and many others.
"One needs to be in a similar vibration to understand me or you will call me a fool" Guru Nanak
NOT a single one of them were perfect, spotless and blameless, nor were they an offering for the sins of all mankind, nor did they rise from the dead, nor were they GOD ALL-MIGHTY.
None of them were THE LAMB OF GOD!
They are all identical in essence with Jesus.There is no difference between Shiva, Buddha or Jesus or any or the masters.
God sends prophets to reiterate the truth.
THEN SO WAS JESUS AND YOU ARE A FANATIC RUINING THE NAME OF JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY
Anyone who says that Messiah Jesus is NOT the only Salvation offered by GOD is a total 100% LIAR !!!
Lets get back ON TOPIC guys. PLEASE.
If you are one who wants/needs some sort of proof, please state what that ought to be.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Any belief is not just an idea the mind possesses, it is an idea that possesses the mind. Are we being possessed? And a long dispute tells me both parties are wrong.
There is -enlightenment but its too personal And its my proof only and not anyone elses Its not something tangible in the scientific way that I can show to someone
But, DELUSION is a fact. And it is very evident in this forum.
I think it is very interesting that proof the in God can only come through the Bible for the Christians. This is their cornerstone for every discussion and is not negotiable. I have many times tried to get Christians to explain their faith without the Bible. Or refer to some other holy transcript that could make their assertions more valid. Once again I am met with silence.
Now don't get me wrong I choose to believe in God based on a lifelong search for myself. But I am told by many Christians that because I am not a Christian I will be left behind and not allowed to have a pleasant afterlife. I don't know what that would be like but it does not scare me.
Proof of the unseen is impossible in a three dimensional existence and proving it through a medium that is not accepted by all is equally futile.
I will tell you that attacking people and damning them to hell is equally contradictive of the teachings of Christ and that is his ministry of love and forgiveness.
Jesus is the word!
Do you not see where where our faith comes in through it? When you omit Gods Word, you omit Jesus, when omit Jesus, you omit the only way to receive salvation.
the Bible is the only real truth out there. You may not adopt that belief but that makes no here or there to God or His Word.
We are not the judge, only the messengers of Gods Truth. Not mans perception of both or either.
The ones that threaten have not understood Jesus or his message.
Jeepers.. When it comes to talking mumbo jumbo you would win a gold medal for sure.
Books don't prove the existence of God. Physical evidence does. And by physical evidence, I don't mean something vague and abstract that could be presented as a truth to God's existence.
Hard, physical evidence is what swings it my friend. If God beamed his little tooshie into my living room, turned my Earl Grey tea into wine before walking on the water in my bath tub, then I might just believe in the existence of God. But until he does that, lets just close the chapter on God and get on with our lives, eh?
Well the Portuguese newspapers reported 70,000. It was anti clerical papers that reported it. Why, do you think it would make a difference if there were just 30,000?
A lot were devote Catholics but a lot were skeptics that came to laugh figuring nothing would happen, even freemasons. They converted. It was predicted 3 months before that something would happen there on that very day. That is why the crowd was there.
I'll check back on Tuesday to see if anyone is interested in this. This is Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada.
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