It seems that this is a one way street. You ask all the questions, but don't back yourself up beyond insult.
I bet I know evolution better than 99.9% in here, and thats why I don't believe in it.
I understand that its fun to be smug and bait believers in a forum, but at some point you need to throw some bacon on the grill. All i see is a bunch of master baiters.
can someone explain an example of macroevolution?
Universal common descent is the hypothesis that all living, terrestrial organisms are genealogically related. All existing species originated gradually by biological, reproductive processes on a geological timescale. Modern organisms are the genetic descendants of one original species or communal gene pool. Genetical "gradualness", a much misunderstood term, is a mode of biological change that is dependent on population phenomena; it is not a statement about the rate or tempo of evolution. Truly genetically gradual events are changes within the range of biological variation expected between two consecutive generations. Morphological change may appear fast, geologically speaking, yet still be genetically gradual (Darwin 1872, pp. 312-317; Dawkins 1996, p.241; Gould 2002, pp. 150-152; Mayr 1991, pp. 42-47; Rhodes 1983). Though gradualness is not a mechanism of evolutionary change, it imposes severe constraints on possible macroevolutionary events. Likewise, the requirement of gradualness necessarily restricts the possible mechanisms of common descent and adaptation, briefly discussed below.
Common Descent Can Be Tested Independently of Mechanistic Theories
In this essay, universal common descent alone is specifically considered and weighed against the scientific evidence. In general, separate "microevolutionary" theories are left unaddressed. Microevolutionary theories are gradualistic explanatory mechanisms that biologists use to account for the origin and evolution of macroevolutionary adaptations and variation. These mechanisms include such concepts as natural selection, genetic drift, sexual selection, neutral evolution, and theories of speciation. The fundamentals of genetics, developmental biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, and geology are assumed to be fundamentally correct—especially those that do not directly purport to explain adaptation. However, whether microevolutionary theories are sufficient to account for macroevolutionary adaptations is a question that is left open.
Therefore, the evidence for common descent discussed here is independent of specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms. None of the dozens of predictions directly address how macroevolution has occurred, how fins were able to develop into limbs, how the leopard got its spots, or how the vertebrate eye evolved. None of the evidence recounted here assumes that natural selection is valid. None of the evidence assumes that natural selection is sufficient for generating adaptations or the differences between species and other taxa. Because of this evidentiary independence, the validity of the macroevolutionary conclusion does not depend on whether natural selection, or the inheritance of acquired characaters, or a force vitale, or something else is the true mechanism of adaptive evolutionary change. The scientific case for common descent stands, regardless.
Furthermore, because it is not part of evolutionary theory, abiogenesis also is not considered in this discussion of macroevolution: abiogenesis is an independent hypothesis. In evolutionary theory it is taken as axiomatic that an original self-replicating life form existed in the distant past, regardless of its origin. All scientific theories have their respective, specific explanatory domains; no scientific theory proposes to explain everything. Quantum mechanics does not explain the ultimate origin of particles and energy, even though nothing in that theory could work without particles and energy. Neither Newton's theory of universal gravitation nor the general theory of relativity attempt to explain the origin of matter or gravity, even though both theories would be meaningless without the a priori existence of gravity and matter. Similarly, universal common descent is restricted to the biological patterns found in the Earth's biota; it does not attempt to explain the ultimate origin of life.
What is Meant by "Scientific Evidence" for Common Descent?
Scientific theories are validated by empirical testing against physical observations. Theories are not judged simply by their logical compatibility with the available data. Independent empirical testability is the hallmark of science—in science, an explanation must not only be compatible with the observed data, it must also be testable. By "testable" we mean that the hypothesis makes predictions about what observable evidence would be consistent and what would be incompatible with the hypothesis. Simple compatibility, in itself, is insufficient as scientific evidence, because all physical observations are consistent with an infinite number of unscientific conjectures. Furthermore, a scientific explanation must make risky predictions— the predictions should be necessary if the theory is correct, and few other theories should make the same necessary predictions.
As a clear example of an untestable, unscientific, hypothesis that is perfectly consistent with empirical observations, consider solipsism. The so-called hypothesis of solipsism holds that all of reality is the product of your mind. What experiments could be performed, what observations could be made, that could demonstrate that solipsism is wrong? Even though it is logically consistent with the data, solipsism cannot be tested by independent researchers. Any and all evidence is consistent with solipsism. Solipsism is unscientific precisely because no possible evidence could stand in contradiction to its predictions. For those interested, a brief explication of the scientific method and scientific philosophy has been included, such as what is meant by "scientific evidence", "falsification", and "testability".
In the following list of evidences, 30 major predictions of the hypothesis of common descent are enumerated and discussed. Under each point is a demonstration of how the prediction fares against actual biological testing. Each point lists a few examples of evolutionary confirmations followed by potential falsifications. Since one fundamental concept generates all of these predictions, most of them are interrelated. So that the logic will be easy to follow, related predictions are grouped into five separate subdivisions. Each subdivision has a paragraph or two introducing the main idea that unites the various predictions in that section. There are many in-text references given for each point. As will be seen, universal common descent makes many specific predictions about what should and what should not be observed in the biological world, and it has fared very well against empirically-obtained observations from the past 140+ years of intense scientific investigation.
It must be stressed that this approach to demonstrating the scientific support for macroevolution is not a circular argument: the truth of macroevolution is not assumed a priori in this discussion. Simply put, the theory of universal common descent, combined with modern biological knowledge, is used to deduce predictions. These predictions are then compared to the real world in order see how the theory fares in light of the observable evidence. In every example, it is quite possible that the predictions could be contradicted by the empirical evidence. In fact, if universal common descent were not accurrate, it is highly probable that these predictions would fail. These empirically validated predictions present such strong evidence for common descent for precisely this reason. The few examples given for each prediction are meant to represent general trends. By no means do I purport to state all predictions or potential falsifications; there are many more out there for the inquiring soul to uncover.
Are There Other Scientifically Valid Explanations?
The worldwide scientific research community from over the past 140 years has discovered that no known hypothesis other than universal common descent can account scientifically for the unity, diversity, and patterns of terrestrial life. This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences (AAAS 1990; NAS 2003; NCSE 2003; Working Group 2001). No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons: (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science, (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found, (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data.
When evaluating the scientific evidence provided in the following pages, please consider alternate explanations. Most importantly, for each piece of evidence, critically consider what potential observations, if found, would be incompatible with a given alternate explanation. If none exist, that alternate explanation is not scientific. As explained above, a hypothesis that is simply compatible with certain empirical observations cannot use those observations as supporting scientific evidence.
How to Cite This Document
Many people have asked how to cite this work in formal research papers and academic articles. This work is an online publication, published by the Talk.Origins archive. There are standard academic procedures for citing online publications. For example, if you last accessed this page on January 12, 2004, and used version 2.83, here is a reference in formal MLA style:
Theobald, Douglas L. "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent." The Talk.Origins Archive. Vers. 2.83. 2004. 12 Jan, 2004 <http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/>
For more information about citing online sources, including MLA, APA, Chicago, and CBE styles, see the formal style guidelines given in the book Online!: a reference guide to using internet sources.
"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd.
I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. "
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Nothing to provoke an argument in your post, right? Nothing between believers and nonbelievers to insult, provoke and argue because it's nonChristian behavior, perhaps?
This is just another thread to start an argument. But thanks for the bait, I'll pass--although I disagree with both sides, pretty much.
perhaps not calling people non-believers?? what is a non-believer. everyone believes something!
Well the question depends non-believer of what doesn't it.
Do you mean non-believer in God? Or non-believer in Christianity? Or non-believer in your beliefs?
Pose the question with specifics and you may get the answer you are looking for.
Your silence is noted genii.
I suppose a little research into your beliefs converted you?
A debate like this can go on forever. I do believe in evolution as science proves it exists as plants, animals, humans and the planet adapts to changing times.
I don't believe in god but I'm not sure why you can't believe in god and evolution. Seems only natural that everything in the Universe is constantly changing and evolving.
"adapts" I can see. Evolve? no.
there are limitations to these adaptations as well.
would you agree?
I don't think there are limitations to adaptations. Over millions of years, the adaptations is an evolution. Think about animals at the bottom of the ocean. They adapted to their environment over millions of years and now they evolved into creatures without sight and able to function.
People that live near the equator adapted to the sun and through the years has evolved into having darker skin color. Genetically, their genes mutated to create the evolution of their skin color. Genetic mutations are an evolution to an adaptation. By simply removing them from their environment, won't bring back their pale skin color nor for many generations after them. A genetic mutation is an evolution and can't be changed in many, many generations.
But that doesn't disprove a god if you believe in god. I don't understand how the evolution of the Universe means there is no god.
Why can't you believe in God and adaptation?
Universe is expanding, changing, yes. Still I am depend on astronomy about expanding. But evolving? If evolution exists then we would see it all the time in all levels. But we don't. Evolution is myth politically motivate. Hitler, communists both evil embraced Darwin. It is typical for materialistic ideas: stronger is winning and weaker is dying.
As a matter of fact both are dying.
You can't see evolution in one lifetime or even 100s of lifetimes.
And why do you christians keep associating Darwin with Hitler?
So you think it's more logical that some great wizard in the sky snapped his finger and created everything?? Over millions and millions of years of evolution?
C'mon! Use your logic. Believing in a wizard in the sky who you've never seen or heard seems a little weirder than evolution, don't you think? haha
I don't mean to be mean but if you are going to compare Darwin to Hitler, then you need a little reality check.
Evolutionism- Long ago and far away nothing exploded and everything came to be earth was a hot molten planet and with millions of years of rained cooled down and created we became soup and a miracle occurred that life came from non-life(we have no proof of this and we can’t duplicate it but please have faith). A fish-like creator came out of a lake with lugs or gill(the jury is still out) had to find something to eat and had to learn how to see eat, smell, and mate(again no proof) at the right time and the princess kissed the frog and the frog through billions of years became man.
Creation- IN THE BEGINING GOD CREATED. Proof: The Holy Bible and everything we see.
I'll stick with The Creation Account.
I'm fine with that. To me, one is much more logical than the other.
But I still don't understand how evolution disproves god and vice versa.
Wouldn't a god create a universe that evolves??
I have no problem with variations, genetic recombination, adaptations, transduction, mutations, transformation, vital enzyme exchange through plasmids, conjugation within a kind, it’s biblical and a proven fact, but when you Darwinist try to take leap of faith with “Give it enough time you turn anything to anything look at these bones” that where it stops being science and becomes a pseudoscientific religion. and you even can't tell how it all began and where the information came from. I‘ll stick with God and His word.
But at least with science there are tangible things to measure. With religions, its always based on faith and stories. No proof of their existence. And thats what makes religions, religions. They are based on FAITH (a hope).
To me, science proves many more things than simply believing in a divine creator. Doesn't make much sense to me and doesn't stand up through time and all the other religions that have existed.
We can go way further back in time with science than we can with any religion. But neither go to the beginning. And we won't know the answer until we die.
Evolution theory changes every couple of years why do you out your faith in a ever changing, forever sinking sand. Evolution is a religion not science. Evolution has the faith in the time god. God never changes He is the solid foundation.
And christianity doesn't change? It's always adapting to the current times. Otherwise, woman would be sub-servant and there would be slaves.
You can't bring that argument up. Religions HAVE to adapt to current times to continue to recruit new followers.
God does not change. Religion does. I worship God.
You know what's funny? People that claim to talk to and see god are locked up in a mental institution and called crazy.
That's one tricky god-figure that can never been seen or heard from till you die.
God is a Spirit. Jesus Christ is visible image of invisible God. These are just a few of the things you can’t grasp.
Yeah, I can't grasp make-believe things. You believe in powerful ghosts
Don't get me wrong....I think the man that was Jesus was a very spiritual person who taught good things to people.
But so was Buddha, Ghandi, the Dali Lama, Mohammed, and other great spiritual leaders. But once they died (or die) their legacy carry's them and their followers and sometimes that creates a god-like image.
Tim. Please read the Bible. There is equality of Jew and Greek (means gentile), master and slave, man or woman. It does not mean one can make drink water when you bring the horse to it. If Christians were off does not mean Bible is off.
I'm not here to disprove a religion. My point was asking why would evolution disprove a god and vice versa. I don' think it does.
Just because I don't believe in an organized religion, doesn't mean I don't think it's good for society. It is.
But not believing in a religion doesn't make me a bad person or anything of the sort.
My argument is that evolution doesn't disprove religion, to me.
Evolution must change in light of new information, it is not static and using data from 2,000 years ago that is stuck in fear.
And the bible stay the same in light of new info and remains true, AGAIN the nonbelievers bring up fear.
do you not see earnest where everything is coming full circle around again to what the world was designed to be back over 4000 years ago?
Can you not see in the information you gather from science where we are headed?
God has been bringing us around into the new generation of life. How it is meant to be. All of this from the beginning as we know the beginning to be, has had a purpose. Even all the evil. God is bringing us around to more understanding and an even greater unity with all He has created and all He will restore.
There is a religious faith and Bible faith. Those are two different matters. The faith is substance (existing things, which was already recorded) and was tested. The science did not test the faith substance since 1. It does not believe 2. Does not have a tools.
We believers believe in science and we are founders of modern science. But we do not believe in science fiction the same one should not believe in religious belief. Religion and faith are two different maters. Religion is fiction too.
Where did the information come from? Why is there something rather than nothing?
Excellent point, TimTurner. The two theories are NOT mutually exclusive.
And I'm afraid to tell you that Christian wars has killed more people than Hitler.
Wrong! Millions were burned, shot, killed poisoned, and slaughtered in Hitler’s Germany thanks to his evolutionary thinking. Stalin, Pol Poi, Columbine Shooters, Kip Kinkle also killed millions to speed up evolution. Come on man you need a history lesson.
And you don't think millions and millions have died because of christian leaders? It all started back in the Roman days.
And 1,500 years later, we are still fighting religions wars because of christianity (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.).
Christian leaders have waged war and killed more people than Hitler.
You need a history lesson. It's scary to think you are running around the real world with your distorted thinking that people "sped up evolution." haha
Are you kidding? You might want look up Pol Poi, Kip Kinkle The columbine shooters, Eugenics Lab, Stalin, Hitler(Roman Catholic turned evolutionary atheist) and all of modern day slavery if you really want to see what real hate is brought us by of the evolutionary religion or evolutionary thinking. Evolutionist and Muslims are one in the same. Except you call it science(but it’s the opposite). You don’t know everything not even close, until you do you can’t make such a statement.(There is no God!) I never claim to know everything I’m flawed like you. God doesn’t exist to you, yet. I have no religion I have a relationship with Jesus Christ(learn the difference) and attend a bible thumbing church.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are religious wars to one side only.
Jews/Christians against Muslims and oil. If the U.S. wouldn't always side with Israel, we wouldn't have so many enemies.
The only think I like about Obama is he doesn't fold to Israel demands which will hurt our relationship with them but that's a good thing for us.
As long as the U.S. continues to defend Israel (because of religion), then it will always be the U.S. vs. the muslim community.
John, the writer of the Book of Revelation- died of natural causes in exile. The other ten(apostles, Judas killed himself) were martyred by various means including; beheading, by sword and spear and, in the case of Peter, crucifixion upside down following the execution of his wife.
The "first" case of persecution of Christians began with Nero. This was in 64 AD. He implied torture tactics and burned the bodies at night for torches for the city.
Tacitus "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired"
Persecution through the second century was even more systematic. Lists of Christian names were silently provided to the Roman Governors. These governors gave "christians"(a name made by Romans meant to insult) an opportunity to offer sacrafices to Roman gods. If they did not, it was punished by death- often in the Coliseum.
There are many Roman accounts of these killings.
Perhaps you need a history lesson. As often is the case.
I am not using that defense! haha I never said christians weren't persecuted.
And what do Romans and evolution have in common? They believed in many gods.
You are stretching on that one.
but you said "And you don't think millions and millions have died because of christian leaders? It all started back in the Roman days."
then you insulted someone for needing to know history. You took this off base.
So...... what is YOUR point?
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So when you ask for evidence and get it, this is not a clue?
Have you read these? These are all scientific papers related to the question.
You prefer some more? That you will not read.
Let me offer some of the responses we usually answer. That doesn't prove anything anybody can write anything! How do we know that these scientists didn't have a predisposition towards evolution before they wrote their papers? That certainly add some doubt to their conclusion. How many of the papers were actually written by religious thinkers?
I personally believe that evolution has had some effect on who we are, I also believe the Bible was written for the people who were to read it first. Had the Bible said that people were going to fly around in jets no one would have believed it. Then the bible would have been considered a work of fiction.
If you take everything in the Bible literaly then it might seem odd. If you take as lessons on our relationships with each other and Heavenly Father, I believe it would be more of what was intended. To compare fossil record to the Bible is like comparaing apples to oranges. Both have their points but on totally different topics.
You're right but it really doesn't apply. Why not look for a reason to believe rather than one to make your brothers and sisters look foolish. Certainly someone as educated as you obviously are can see the humanity in that.
I think christians are the ones that are always trying to debunk evolution because it's a threat to their religion.
I am here saying neither belief contradicts the other. They can go hand in hand. I personally don't believe in religion but I don't see why evolution and religion can't exist together.
Evolution is a lie! Religion is not God. The point is The Bible and evolution don't mix. Because evolution is a lie and changes constantly and God does not. Period
That is your opinion. God is a lie to me. But they both can still exists since "god" would've created evolution.
God can create and do whatever he wants. So why can't he have created evolution?
It's not in His word! Evolution says death brought man into the world, the bible says sin brought death in the world if you're a Christian and believe in evolution you're calling God a liar and God cannot lie.
I think you give evolution too much credit as a "religion." haha
At any rate, we both believe we came from nothing (me, evolution, you by god willing it) and now we are here.
No need to argue anymore
I agree. I think that Christians get a bad rap because sometimes we're too agressive in presenting our positions. I think we mean well we just get too over zealous. I believe not all has been revealed and I want to ask God how it played out. Christians we sometimes remind me of an old Jerry Lewis movie, 'The Disorderly Orderly'. Jerry played and orderly who constanly screwed up trying to do too much. So much, in fact, that he made people around him mad at him.
Yeah, I've had some great convos and friendly debates with my christian friends. It's good to always think.
But the people that get over-zealous and can't look past their own beliefs, take it to the extreme. Thats when I get defensive as well but I still try to keep everything in perspective. At least I think so haha
You seem like a very thoughtful person and I know it gets hard. Some Christians make me uncomfortable and thats not what it's about. It's not about threats or fear it's about love and faith. If their good people and you don't want a Bible lesson change the subject. I've said on the Hubs before, If I started preaching in the duck blind the guys would throw me out and make me swim for it while they took shots at me.
WOW! Evolution Guy-evolution brainwashing finished product!
If science is about reasoning and debate, why do evolutionists censor controversies, fraud, and weaknesses of the evolution theory from textbooks?
Avoiding the question. You asked - I answered.
As to the rest -
The Truth Hurts
Evolution guy, this is my favorite paragraph out of the whole article. this is very helpful thankyou.
"Therefore, the evidence for common descent discussed here is independent of specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms. None of the dozens of predictions directly address how macroevolution has occurred, how fins were able to develop into limbs, how the leopard got its spots, or how the vertebrate eye evolved. None of the evidence recounted here assumes that natural selection is valid. None of the evidence assumes that natural selection is sufficient for generating adaptations or the differences between species and other taxa. Because of this evidentiary independence, the validity of the macroevolutionary conclusion does not depend on whether natural selection, or the inheritance of acquired characaters, or a force vitale, or something else is the true mechanism of adaptive evolutionary change. The scientific case for common descent stands, regardless."
and especially- "the scientific cas for common descent stands, regardless."
why does evolution still rely heavily upon macroevolution?
Evolution theory cannot be substantiated by comparative anatomy. The theory is already out.
Molecular cellular biology is saying opposite of evolution. We have three very (!) complicated structures of one cell. It has protoplasm, membrane and nucleus. It is impossible to evolve all three the same time. If not, the cell would die. The time frame is crucial and very short duration.
One layperson cannot imagine how cell complex is and its parts are.
If one believing in evolution, he could easily believe that Microsoft Word Processor occurred by itself.
I'm going to spend some considerable time refuting Evolutionguys post.
there was no answer there(usual), it did explain that science really doesn't know, more possibilities, and method of study.
And its always been the christian religion that burned people at the stake for believing that the earth was round and the sun was the center of the universe.
Christians always feared science and killed people in brutal ways to suppress it. Time always sides with science as we have seen today.
We know the earth is round and we know the sun is the center of the universe.
Christians have always done whatever it takes to save the face of their beliefs even when they know they are wrong.
I like science, I have no problems with creation science, but evolution is anti science. Less than 20 people were burned in the Salem Witch Trails(that doesn‘t make it right), but millions were burned, shot, killed poisoned, and slaughtered in Hitler’s Germany thanks to his evolutionary thinking. Stalin and Pol Poi also killed millions to speed up evolution. Why? Because evolution is the religion of time and death
Evolution has nothing to do with Hitler and Stalin haha Quit trying to make that comparison!
Darwin did not sit and try to find ways to create genocide haha
Tim Turner wrote:
And why do you Christians keep associating Darwin with Hitler?
Because, Hitler and Marx admired Darwin and build their control system based on Darwin's theory. Both Marx and Hitler were socialists. Disciple of Marx was Stalin and cared out the theory of Marx. Hitler was chief of National party of Germany. Lenin and Stalin in party of socialistic proletariat.
Evil always is divided and kill each other. Death is final goal of evil one.
But do you know how many evil people believe in christianity and have killed countless people?
You can't bring up that argument at all. There have been serial killers and cult leaders who have killed a ton of people in the name of a christian god.
There are fruitloops on both sides.
Tim Turner said:
"But at least with science there are tangible things to measure."
Sir, how can you go back millions years and "tangible measure" of the past?
You weren't there(in the beginning ) neither was I, but I know who was and I have His Word. Please don't start the unbelievers trump card. We you can't answer the question your ignore the argument and focus on grammar and spelling it childish and call your bluff.
I seriously didn't know what you meant. Asking you to rephrase a question is not childish.
What question am I ignoring?? lol
You must've "missed" it. Where did the information come from? Why is there something rather than nothing?
Because of the Big Bang. And, to you, that is god snapping his finger to create the Universe. To me, it's not.
But who cares because both ways of explaining has the same result: we are here! haha
I agree that the two subjects (faith & religion) are relevent to each other but one does not describe the other. Religion is mans failure to regulate the belief others have in a diety. Does that mean the diety does not exist? I hardly think so. One mans truth is another mans folly.
The thing is like a blind man who can feel his way around a room and jump back when he senses but doesn't touch impending danger. A different type of sense is developed in the process and you may liken it to a talent. To try and teach or proove these senses is fruitless if the student doubts their existence.
Like a craftsman makes a table worthy of existence it will never know the creator as it understands its self. So is the explanation of the spiritual world to a physical world.
"Evolution is a lie! Religion is not God. The point is The Bible and evolution don't mix. Because evolution is a lie and changes constantly and God does not. Period"
When some argue that the dinosaurs could not have all fit on the ark, they forget or do not know that the books of the Tanakh (Old Testament) are not put together in chronological order and that Job is the oldest and written long before the account of the flood.
How many topics or discussions do we need on this?
As far I can see, a Christian answer for an atheist's question on their beliefs usually will not satisfy that atheist...like an atheist's response to a Christian's question will usually not be satisfactory to the Christian.
They are 2 wholly different interpretations with different rationale and perspectives. That's why there will always be disagreements and fuzzy understanding.
With all these topics like this that directly or indirectly question both Christian and Atheist/Agnostic values or morale there ARE responses to the questions. But, of course you aren't going to agree fully or at all with them...it's not your belief.
Agree to disagree...because usually these discussions gets hairy and helps nothing.
But, I know ya'll will continue beating that dead horse as if it isn't a mound of bloody carnage by now...;D
But I"m going to challenge you...just because I believe in evolution, doesn't mean I'm agnostic or atheist
I'm a very spiritual person but not with religion or a god.
I'm just throwing that out here in good humor haha
But, yeah, this argument can go on forever except a god and evolution, to me, doesn't disprove each other.
Of course you don't have to be an atheist or agnostic to believe in evolution. And, I haven't even read any of your responses to this so I hope you don't think I was directing it specifically at you.
I don't know what you are belief-wise...but you can be spiritual and agnostic or atheist. Correct me if I misunderstood, but if you don't believe in a god or religion...how are you not falling under the label of atheist or agnostic? Just from what you've said I can only make that vague assumption. You can be an atheist and be a Satanist too...so there are many types.
Atheism essentially is not believing in a god, but contrary to many stereotypes, not all atheists are just about science and apparent rationale...many are spiritual so this comes as no surprise.
I do believe in nirvana or heaven or a state of all-knowing but not in a single deity. I'm not sure if that means I'm agnostic or not, honestly.
But I do believe in a greater spiritual level but not run by a god.
I did not believe in The All-Mighty Maker of Heaven and Earth......
and then HE appeared to me and that was the end of that disagreement.
"It must be stressed that this approach to demonstrating the scientific support for macroevolution is not a circular argument: the truth of macroevolution is not assumed a priori in this discussion. Simply put, the theory of universal common descent, combined with modern biological knowledge, is used to deduce predictions. These predictions are then compared to the real world in order see how the theory fares in light of the observable evidence. In every example, it is quite possible that the predictions could be contradicted by the empirical evidence. In fact, if universal common descent were not accurrate, it is highly probable that these predictions would fail. These empirically validated predictions present such strong evidence for common descent for precisely this reason. The few examples given for each prediction are meant to represent general trends. By no means do I purport to state all predictions or potential falsifications; there are many more out there for the inquiring soul to uncover."
Here Science gently exposes its flaws, but encourages the reader to "uncover" more evidence.
There are flaws in everything, including your precious belief in god.
If you hate science so much, you should strip away the technological advances that surround you and go live in the woods. haha
I love science- especially evolutionary science, its easy for me to descipher.
I also enjoy the comforts of technology and the science that helps make it; "technological science".
But then the woods sound nice too.
If you hate the idea of an intelligent designer, I'd gladly take your house, car, cell phone etc lol
See how much simpler your life is when you don't have to question anything? You just say "its gods will" and you're done.
If I ask for proof, you have none to show but faith and a book.
My mind is far too analytical for simple, illogical thought processes.
when believers do.
i gave up asking any of them any questions. they either sidestep them, ignore them completely or throw a scripture at you, then, when you interpret the scripture, they tell you that you are wrong and that scripture can be taken many different ways and no one but God really knows what it means and besides, God is a divine mystery worth investigating, blah blah blah...
You don't find it amazing that a believer may have the ability to answere ANY question with scripture. How complete is the bible. Wow.
"give me YOUR analysis and thoughts, don't recite scripture" she said to anyone who was listening...
Well then we would have over 5 billion individuals with nothing to say. And you might complain about the 30,000 religions, but what about 5 billion?
2 billion people believe in christianity today. The report actually came out today. Muslim is second with 1.4 billion or something like that.
The Catholic church alone has 2 billion followers, I'm talking about 30,000 religions, not followers.
Haha yeah but the Muslims are catching up. Uh oh...what will christians do when they aren't #1 in a few years??
Timmy, I say when class is dismissed.
VATICAN CITY (March 30) - Islam has surpassed Roman Catholicism as the world's largest religion, the Vatican newspaper said Sunday.
"For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us," Monsignor Vittorio Formenti said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. Formenti compiles the Vatican's yearbook.
He said that Catholics accounted for 17.4 percent of the world population — a stable percentage — while Muslims were at 19.2 percent.
Actually, 2 billion for christianity and 1.8 billion for muslims. This report came out today. Here is the link: http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/HOLD-RELE … population
Any nonbeliever can answer any question with scripture as well. The Bible is so vague,that you can use it for different purposes.
And I agree with cosette in everything she said.
From what you have posted before, I would say maybe the bible is too assertive.
What did I post before ? I don't understand you. I never quote the bible.
I know you don't, you have posted oppinions on God's "judgemental" ways and/or behavior and character traits.
And ? the bible God is very judgemental , so ? the bible is still vague about concepts and proverbs and profecies and what have you. What's your point here ?
You said it was to vague, I argue it is not.
The bible answers nothing but a proven to be a government creation and nothing to do with a divine being.
They can try, but they often quotes out of context and have no idea what they are talking about FAIL. marine is a perfect example.
I mean nonbelievers that study the matter and get in serious debates. not talking about this forum
you are a perfect example of an ignorant animal that limits his mind to a 1 belief system.
What is different from your belief and animals belief? Nothing. You both have a 1 belief system.
Ask me to interpret one of your bible quotes to prove your point.
You're the evoluntist so that would make you the animal if you're being honest. Animals have no belief. You believe everything and nothing. How do you do that?
Animals belief is nature. They all follow a set course of nature/belief. Animals follow natures script.
You do the exact same thing when you follow a script.
I believe parts of evolution, not all of it. Quote me where I said I was an evoloutionist. Again, you are going to hell for lying.
How do I believe everything and nothing? I know nothing, I debate everything. I do not have a set belief.
this poster (TTH) has done that to myself, and another poster who i won't name because he is a nice guy and i won't drag him into this by proxy... anyway this poster attributed things to myself and to him that we supposedly said, which we never said...not even close...in another religious thread, which is why i don't engage that person.
If it's not set How can you be so sure my God is not real to be honest you must admit you don't know.
I said 99% sure leaving room for error. You have 100% faith in your belief because your animal mind thinks in absolute terms.
Write that down.
I say I know your God is a government creation and nothing divine to 99% belief.
I admit to not knowing if creation is divine evolution or random evolution, or if we have been intervened from other animals. I don't know why we have the ability to learn and teach information from generation to generation when other animals can't.
I do know that you have an animal mind when you believe a 1 belief system.
As for your government God, he answers none of my questions.
You've to all Christians. You don't know our God, just assumptions poor ones at that. Keep trying.
please marine- state the govenment that created God. If you have a theory that you so strongly believe, surly you must have some evidence?
We taught you this one week ago. Why backslide?
Don't act like you haven't seen the other thread ignorant one where I believe to have partially proved my idea.
Now everyone can read where you have been commenting. You refuse to debate my ideas. Instead, you keep asking ignorant repetitive questions. Much like your repetitive belief.
"Any" grouped belief is government. Your bible is government.
Write that down.
No, this is really good stuff Marine. I'm just trying to help you. This could go mainstream if you incorperate some vampires.
So, we need to know what government?
You are completely ignorant. You completely miss the point out of choice or ignorance. Either way, you still = ignorance.
you are soooo close to something big here.
Ah, but a true insult. Should I let him stay ignorant without telling him? Didn't your bible teach you different?
Write that down.
Our first encounter, if I recall. I showed you the vids, but I could be wrong, go back and check. And where did I say I have a religion?
Ha, what vids? I want to see you quote me.
Pray to god tonight to forgive you for lying. You constantly lie, but it's alright. Doesn't matter what you do as long as you ask for forgiveness.
I could be wrong, go back and check. And where did I say I have a religion?
If the believer has faith and interpretation.
Oh Come on. Don't play games I answered every question you asked, you may not like the answers, but I did answer.
It seems that people who believe in God seem to discredit evolution. There could be a God and evolution. Frankly, there is no way we can know if God exists or not, but if he does, it seems very, very unlikely that he is involved with us in any way. We are a tiny, tiny part of the Universe, and there is so much pain in our little realm that I have trouble believing God would be involved with us. If he was, he would not have allowed such horrors to occur.
Hello Sooner, Hi truthhurts,
nice to see you boys are at it again...
Tempting temptin temting to get in on the conversation, but I have somework to do... we'll cross swords later
well then i guess this is just one of life's dilemmas and the questions on both sides can all go to the Island of Unanswered Questions, or something
handy, that. (not to mention horribly conflicting and inconsistent...)
Any person who bothered to read the long and informative post by EG would already realize the pathetic rebuttal by the religionists done in a few minutes is a farce! Not one intelligent reply!
I have not read all of the material sourced, but will now bring a few things up to speed.
EG obviously knows his subject well, and if god would like to reply, I suggest we get something more than biblical quotes, or "it ain't so, god told me" or something similar.
or you could try to understand it and dump your belief in your sky fairy!
I have a belief.
Even when presented with the best scientific information coming from our best minds with the advantage of having all that was known in history up till now at their fingertips, all that will be ignored by those who would rather believe in a self contradictory fairy tale with one source that has a self stated vested interest in demanding obedience.
The impossible dream. I believe religionists can't think.
Ah, they think. All think as one following natures script of their animal minds belief. They have not recognized their human mind. Their mind is scripted!
However, they will not see anything me or you write. They will write it off in their heads before digesting it because it challenges their faith.
I read the whole thing, and i find it funny that you say "self contradictory". that is what I would say of the report. Furthermore it tries to soften "macroevolution" around the edges. But, you need macroevolution to be as bizzar as it was the first day it was printed.
Your theory relies on it. You are the most proud of the largest "fairy tale" on earth.
This is your story marine, don't make me finish it for you.
write that down.
I will finish.
I tried to create awareness to the ignorant animal 1 belief system minds but failed.
They lived their entire lives never knowing themselves.
Actually a sad story.
i have nothing to add re: the topic. i just wanted to comment on your avatar...that baby is so cute and that picture is adorable. i smile every time i see it.
sad to think his chances in life are severely impared, he is adorable.
Ah, the believer mind.
Now I will make an example of how your ignorant mind operates.
Here I will pretend i'm you: Hmmm, since I can't make a point on why his belief system is ignorant, I will make a comment on his innocent child to try and draw an emotional reaction.
Unlike your weak follower mind trapped in belief, I seperate emotions from belief. Your belief is fear driven.
said the man who can't make a post without calling someone ignorant.
Next, I knew that you could not take a compliment for you child, with a stab at your pride.
Who is emotional here? Who is ignorant here? you
I just wanted to show you what real "bait" looks like.
write that down.
"Why won't you answer our questions?"
"*doesn't read response, insults you*"
I couldn't forget you. Your ignorant animal belief system is quite amusing. I enjoy picking apart your ignorant mind.
haha. I know, what kind of discharge do you think he had. I bet it started with the letter "D"
What was he fighting for He's obliviously does not understand freedom of Speech, freedom or just plain respect did they stop teaching that?
he made the army contemplate removing their slogan; "an army of one".
Yeah that remark surely came from a place of love and following God's heart. I'm a Marine too anyone want to take a jab? My discharge was honorable and so were my medals....the ones I earned protecting your right to insult people...yes i know he's doing it too but he doesn't claim to follow a higher calling and way. You should know better and be above such petty hurtful crude actions.
See it has got to be so bad that they "SNIP" your replies.....give it a rest man.
Marines are taught that they and only they are the best.
That is until they show up at the beach in Coronado, California.
No, I'm done here. you did it marine, you brought out the worst in me.
I had all the "ignorant" comments that I could take for 1 da.... year.
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If you have any evidence please present it.
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