I really want to know and would like this answered without insulting me or my beliefs to the contrary, What proof do atheist have that God or any god does not exist?
Now before any of you answer, try to understand, try to answer without using my beliefs as your crutch to support your own. All I want is an answer.
What is it that drives your belief so strongly that God does not exist?
My belief in Him is does not matter in your responses. Since it is not belief which makes Him exist. In other words, He does whether or not I believe He does.
So what then makes you doubt and not only doubt which leaves some room how very little that He does, but not just doubt but assert as some do, in their "knowing" He does not?
What proof do you have that he exists (keeping in mind that proof is not a subjective experience - and that the bible is a bunch of stories based on human's experiences)?
And you are not the center of the universe - don't worry, I won't use your beliefs for anything.
You have no proof of this statement, so do not speak as if it is a fact. It's really irritating. This post seems like an excuse to argue god to people who don't believe.
Me? I believe in a god. I'm also pretty sure that if "he" exists, he is not the god described in the bible.
P.S. If you quote me scripture I will just ignore it.
This is an opinion, stop stating it like fact! STOP IT!
there's actually no way to politely answer this question without insulting your belief, since i don't believe in your god, the Christian god, because he kills his 'children', threatens them with eternal damnation, messes with their minds and makes them do crazy things to prove their love for him, all things i would never ask of or do to my children.
i'm suspect there might be an amazing spiritual entity out there somewhere, but yours ain't it.
you said :
'My belief in Him is does not matter in your responses. Since it is not belief which makes Him exist. In other words, He does whether or not I believe He does.'
Do you honestly think someone will take the trouble to post an opinion,when you're saying God is there, wether we like it or not ?
Why the question then ? When you have answered He is ?
Why would anyone not like that He is there?
I don't believe he's there. and you know it. So why push me into an argument ?
Is that a 'christian' attitude ?
I'm not pushing you into a argument Tantrum, I just asked a question which you have yet to answer.
And then I asked another, "why would you or anyone not like it if He does exist?
I can't care less if he exists or not to you.
I don't believe.
Now lets say he is. Well I'm not buying OK ? Even If I have to go to hell for not doing so. I'm not for this kindd of God. I'd rather go for Satan. More straightforward. MHO
Yes it was and I thank you for your honesty.
I have yet to hear the answer as to WHY you do not believe HE exists though.
And there is no reason to get hostile with me, I am not being hostile, I am just really curious if anyone has an answer besides, "well, I just don't."
I'm sure I have given this opinion before hundreds of times.
Here it goes for you in case you missed it:
I only have to seer around, all the misery, the flaws, the errors in this creation, to wonder how a God would have done such an untidy mess of everything. And i'm not talking only of Man here. So don't come to me with the story of 'free will'
Ok thats an honest answer
And I can see where it may not make sense to you or anyone for that matter, unless you believe that sin is the cause of all that you stated and not God. God does provide a way out of this world of sin, of death, of hurt and pain, of illness and evil. He has provided the out for us into a world made of that perfection in its entirety that you think it and He should be.
Could it be, that God knowing that satan himself fell because of pride thinking he knew better than God, thinking he had all the answers and that he could be like God had become so evil as a result of that sin that when He (God) saw man falling into that SAME temptation, falling as a result of that SAME sin thought it best because He loved man so much, to make it possible for man to once again have a choice in the matter?
Think about this: God could have just punished Adam by destroying him. But He did not. He provided a way for mankind to once again have the option regardless of sin, to have eternal life in paradise with Him once again. What you fail to see is that Adam had that choice as well. He could have chosen life eternal in the garden with God. He chose death and the world instead. Which are the SAME two choices we have now. And Why? Why would God even bother with mankind after the fall? Because he loves us. Because His grace and forgiveness is such that He wants to be with us forever.
And so Satan lied to Adam as he does with us now. Convincing as he does now that knowledge is more powerful than God and in having knowledge you can be like God.
What does he mean by that? That people can dismiss God and save themselves. That they are not in NEED of God as they are the superior beings in the universe. Having all the knowledge God does, which of course is impossible. Yet boy do we see it everyday. Man thinking he knows how the universe came to be without God, how life started without God, etc. Thinking they know so much about it all that they conclude absolutely, positively there is no God.
That is pride and ego in the highest degree. And too, the biggest deception of all time.
So now here we are all these thousands of years later and we are having this discussion and you say, "well I see all of this..." and if God does exist I choose to be a part of satans world forever rather than choose to be with God who I "think" created the mess in the first place.
God provided you with a rescue from it Tantrum. I am sorry you don't believe that.
Yet another thread that asks a question so that you can stick your ridiculous beliefs out there.
Never mind. Maybe god will bless you with some will power instead?
You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
You do not believe in either God or Satan so why don't you just
Cállate la boca?
That is quietness and trust right there. Enough to convince anyone there is no god.
We are friends so does it look like he got his panties all bunched up?
Not that I would know if he uses panties or not.
Maybe it can answered this way: "Have you ever attended a place where your opinion is neither required nor appreciated?"
So - you mean, no matter what anyone says - you reject it pre-emptively?
"He does(exist) whether or not I believe He does."
He does not exist. Any fool can see the absolute lack of evidence for a god. He does not exist - no matter how hard you wish it.
Too bad. Your beliefs are worthless.
I knew it was you mark, please don't run answer the questions "scientist"
He is there but again, it does not matter in our belief He is. The question is why you choose to believe He is not.
Lets say for arguments sake, (As we believe there is sufficient evidence) but I digress, that there is no physical evidence of God existing. Does that in of itself make Him non-existent? In other words, is the proof you are seeking come in the form of physical evidence? Are you not open to the possibility that God and the evidence of Him lies in more than just the physical as we know it to be?
Like maybe we cannot physically see Him as we do not see the wind, yet we feel it and thus know from the physicality of that happening on our skin that it exists?
Maybe to the believer having felt God in our hearts,
seeing Him as we believe man did in the person He became, as in Him being of the physical form, (Jesus),
hearing His voice, as some of us claim to have heard,
looking at the same scientific evidence you do and coming to our own conclusions about it as it relates to creation and a being or entity creating it, or designing it,
the Bible which I know you think is untrue, but still as evidence goes, it in of itself could prove to some extent His existence.
That all this above is that evidence you think is lacking?
What sort of proof are you looking for Mark? A fingerprint? lol
Or is it that you are NOT looking for evidence of His existence and thats why you haven't any?
i looked in the g part of my dictionary. and as i suspected their it was.
Why start this up again? We have all weighed in on the issue in one way or another. You believe what you want and others believe what they want it is that simple, now carry on.
"and when the answer that you want
is in the question that you state
come what may
come what may"
Hey cole, did you talk to your teachers yet?
My professor, no, I have his class Monday. But I gave you a title of a book a postdoc I talked to recommended. He isn't my professor, but he works with him in the molec dept.
Pam- But he's probably going to want to know why I'm inquiring, so what's the reason for the question?
Do you know what a postdoc is? He is just as qualified as my professor. I bet he gives me the same resource.
But your teacher teaches you, Isn’t that his the same response you gave me when I suggested, Michal Behe. I’ll wait.
The postdoc assists my professor in his lab. Same research. I go to both of them with questions. They both teach me. But I have genetics on Monday. I'll let you know what he says. Still, what is the reason for the question?
I want to know all their POV, Can they give me a clear response?
My guess would be no Pam. But I offered to ask him, so I will. He works in Genetics with Drosophila m. The evolution of organ systems is not a part of his research. But he is a brilliant man. So who knows? But as far as a clear answer, it must be thorough, and to be thorough it must be complete. So he's probably going to tell you to read the book his postdoc suggested. But we'll see.
It seems that "Mark Knowles" has become an "Evolution Guy" and evolved so much that he has gone "Up His Ass"
Just because someone has the same opinion doesn't mean they're the same person.
read mark’s creation vs evol hub and compare. It’s really quite apparent.
another ready made quote, underwishing ?
Discernment can be tricked. It depends on who's discerning.
The one kind of discernment I am talking about,
all others are subject to it and cannot hide from it,
nor can this one be tricked by anyone as it sees all.
It is not that, I know for fact he's Mark as he answered me when I called him out by name.
Also, we have had some debate over the months and his style of writing is the same.
3rd, we are still debating the earth being shaped like an MM LOL
And Pam, even Michael Behe's department doesn't back him up with his beliefs.
"The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of "intelligent design." While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific."
I give the man credit for still working, living, and believing despite the lack of support. But it must suck to have the university discredit you.
Mature, quietness. Because the question was asked to those who don't believe there is a God. So telling him to shut his mouth when he is answering the question is pretty lame.
thank you cole !
He's a little bit nuts, that's all.
I forgive him
I meant to put "their God" but I put "their is a God". Ugh I'm tired. You're welcome Tantrum. I forgive him too
That was your subconsious talking. I have proof.
No Sneako, it was in this sentence, "Because the question was asked to those who don't believe their is a God." And how do you know whether or not I believe in God? I don't think I've ever discussed that.
Hey I did not ask for your forgiveness man!!!
Take it back or
I know you're not well! don't do this to you. Go and take a nap and some Prozac. You'll feel better afterwards !
We are friends really, so he takes no offense, he is 10 times more rude than me.
You want to know why those of us who do not believe feel the way we do. You want to understand this or just cause a ruckus?
I can't speak for everyone here but I'm going to tell you my story as briefly as possible.
I died. Plain and simple. Surgery to repair another surgery went belly up and I died. I knew before going into the surgery I wasn't coming out, but I did. It wasn't God or Gods/Goddesses laying their hands on me who brought me back out it was the physician working through the problems at hand.
There was no white light, no embers of hell, there was nothing. I remember absolutely nothing of this experience. I didn't float around the room watching as the surgeons worked to resuscitate me. I didn't hover in some realm between here and heaven waiting to see what would happen with an angel at my side.
See these are the things I had been taught to believe. I believed that God existed and would come for you via an angel or whatever prior to all of this, but no there was nothing a total void of memory for me lost forever.
I awoke to the sound of the resusitation machine breathing for me. God was not there breathing for me or helping me through this. There was nothing.
But you did not die as you are here right now responding.
You said you don't remember in your words, Absolutely anything! so how can you state you did not see a light, did not float from your body, etc.? Perhaps you did and do not remember the experience.
How did I know this would be the one thing you would focus on? And, yes I am here now but only because my surgeon worked extremely hard to put the resuscitation tube back into me. I fought them. I awoke with my hands chained to the bed to keep me from pulling it out. I awoke alone.
You are right, I am wrong. I don't remember, but given the teachings I grew up with I should have felt something. The only thing I felt was the certainty that I was not coming out of the surgery. I said my goodbyes to my family not expecting to wake up in worse condition than I went in but I did and I was alone.
I felt I had been given another chance to see the miracle of God's work, only to find 6 months after the surgery that my husband was cheating on me. I took stock of the situation and tried to live with it until a man of the cloth told me it was normal for a husband who is not getting his husbandly dues to seek solace elsewhere. I was not in any phyiscal shape to perform those duties and still am not to this day. The marriage and my faith left at the same time.
There is nothing out there for you to hinge yourself to other than your beliefs. I have given you mine, you have yours. Peace be with you.
Well if you're going to play that game still... then last night when I was sleeping I took a plane to China and ate some octopus-- flew a kite in Afghanistan-- met Isaac Newton-- married Kate Beckinsale-- won the superbowl... I don't remember it, but it happened.
why is it that the people who insist there is no such thing as gods. jump at any question that comes up about god? not only that but then proceed to beat the subject to death with post after post after post.its almost like their consumed with something they dont believe in. i have also noticed that knowone talks more about gods than a atheist.religions want you to believe they try like heck to get you to. but atheists try harder to get you not to. their worse than christian when it comes to pushy beliefs.
lol i knew that would get your attention tantrum. your cool by me .if you would? i posted a ? its fund nasa to the hilt .its geting no response. help a brother out please
and I'msorry you can't accept my believes as my own truth, and worth something
I never said that tantrum. I believe you believe what you do as a matter of "your own truth". I do not count it as worthy as I do not understand what a belief like that is worthy of when concerning God and His truth.
the nwe're even. I think your beliefs are not worthy either.
But, what you're failing to see is that there is NO GOD to begin with.
You long message to Tantrum, was nothing more than YOUR "ego" running amuk.
How does that factor?
Your belief is your belief. You can believe what you want, but you cannot force others to believe it also.
It is insanity to believe that you could. You can't even accept your life for what it is? Which automatically makes your a slave.
You live your life doing the work of others(higher authority, however false it is), because you take it on faith/belief, that you will forever need guidance.
How is your life really yours?
After reading this, I think I better understand where you were getting at in the other thread...
I like what you had to say here, Cagsil. You raise some interesting points. I don't think that my beliefs and your viewpoints are mutually exclusive, though. I'll have to mull it over.
Thank you for your insight.
See there you again, "there is no God to begin with!" How do you know that?
And my life was never "mine" to begin with. God is the author and finisher of life. It is His.
You cannot destine yourself to live forever or be free from death now can you?
So how can your life be yours?
Your soul lives in the body. Your body is yours, you can do with it what you want. All the physicalities which make up the body are yours to do with what you like, but your soul belongs to God which is essence WHO you really are.
I ask the same of you. Without stating an opinion as a fact, explain how you KNOW god exists.
This is an opinion. You have no proof.
I can't buy a car and know that I'll have it forever. Does that mean that it is not my car? Flawed Logic.
This is an opinion. You have no proof.
The soul thing is not proof and has no scientific backing. The idea that thoughts and opinions are based on experiences that happened IN YOUR BODY has decent scientific backing (albeit some opponents). Once again, this is opinion.
Stop treating opinion like fact. STOP IT!
So, you're willing to sit there and tell me that my life is not my own?
Can you tell me you are the one who controls the date and time of your death?
Do you provide your own breath?
When you do, then you own your life.
Why is it that you ask a question, someone answers your question, and you dispute their answer? It is their answer. That is what you asked for. Just say, "Thanks" and move on.
Not looking for answers.
Merely wanting to fight and force it's beliefs. Like it says in the bible.......
I belive, but not because of any proof I have ever received. I believe because I chose to think some force greater than us all created everything out of thin air. Scientists might someday give it a name ... dark matter? Who knows? Regardless, I am in awe of nature and find it worthy of reverence.
Do I think of others as heathens for not believing in God? Absolutely not!
One can never prove God exists ... our only proof is through te desire that he actually is out there - and I desire him to exist, so for me he does.
I recently did the math on the possibility that God exists as explained through certain religions and my most recent thread told me exactly what I needed to know.
For hardcore Christians there is Jesus and the Bible and a refusal to believe in both is to be scorned. However, those of other religions were acceptant that one could transcend by just living a good life. As so many religions exist in the world promoting good acts, I must - as a logical thinker - consider them all to be worthy of ascension (including the Chritians).
So ... why do people refuse to believe? I can answer that one ...
They see homeless people struggle to survive, millions starving around the world, innocent people killed in wars ... and are told this occurs by God's will - as it must, as God is all powerful and could stop it if he wanted to.
As such, knowing God is supposed to represent good, they can't understand how a force for good refuses to act upon these situations when (given the power to do so) they would do so themselves.
After all, a supreme being that wipes out nearly all life on Earth in a great flood is capable of doing great feats of good as well ... and yet ... fails to react during these horrible times ... what about the old people who died during Katrina because no one knew they were left behind in a nursing home? Where were God and his angels then? Do we presume them all evil and deserving?
God doesn't make his presense known in a way non-believers would like him to, and so they find themselves hating God and then eventually refusing to believe.
As for me, I only see God as a force of creation and not a meddler in everyday affairs. As powerful as he is, if he demanded us to be good he could force our obedience ... much as he did with the great flood that is written of in the Bible ... and that obedience didn't last long ...
All the versus and explanations in the world won't make non-believers into believers. They need God to part the clouds and do something ... given his ability to flood the Earth and destroy all life, I should think a better method to gain belief would be for him to end all wars in a day.
If God does that, there will be few who refuse to believe in him. But as I said, God seems more like a creator than an interactive element, so I don't see this one happening.
There's nothing wrong with believing in God (I'm a believer myself) but to believe with the intent that God will make your life better ... come here a moment so I can whisper something into your ear ... *I think God wants you to manage your life for yourself and to do what needs to be done to make it better*
So, that's why some people hate or disbelieve in God, and I feel they have the right to feel that way as it delivers the message upstairs that we want to see more action down here ... feed the hungry, give life to the needlessly dying, give peace to those at war ...
Sorry, but God hasn't done much since the days of creation ... and that's why so many are falling away from belief.
Yes God flooded the earth and killed most all of life on the planet as a result of mans sin. And did man learn his lesson from this event? No.
God has performed a great many miracles and as well showed His mighty power and giving man many an opportunity to believe and repent. Man refused.
So throughout our history God has done these things and yet people still choose to not believe and sin.
So God decided the best way to act on behalf of humanity was to sacrifice Himself through the person, the flesh of Jesus. In this way, man if so chooses to rebel and continue to rebel would be free to do so and suffer the consequences. Yet if man chooses to accept the pardon for their sin in belief in Christ, they are forgiven and receive reward of eternal life. God promised after the flood to never again destroy it in that way again. He is not going back on His word. He cannot. So He made another way for man to yet again have choices.
The simple truth is we in this world FULL of sin, Full of disbelieve and hatred of the God who created us are feeling the affects of a world full of sin.
God allows this as man time and time again no matter what God did to rescue him out of it, continues to sin, to rebel against Him.
This is a story to teach a lesson, not proof of god.
This is also an opinion. There is no proof.
This is also an opinion. There is no proof.
This is also an opinion. You have no proof.
Once again, there is no proof that a god created us. You really need to stop treating your beliefs like they are facts. They are not. STOP IT.
There is proof of all of it, you choose to dismiss it to JUSTIFY your disbelief.
You're right, there is no proof.
This is an opinion. You don't know me, or why I dismiss the beliefs of Christianity (besides killing millions of people in their name). If you had bothered to read my post on the last page then you would know that. Honestly, I doubt you will actually take the time to attempt to understand my beliefs. I have no problem with that though, some people need to be led. Some people need to have their hands held.
Here, take my challenge. Read this hub:
The person I was talking with at the end is an Evangelist Christian that I have known for many years. In the end, he chose to acknowledge my beliefs as possibly true. Can you do the same?
God is all good and all-powerful ... fact
Sin is evil and must be destroyed ... fact
God can remove the sin? If the first two are true then the third must be true as well ... or else he doesn't care to remove sin as much as we'd like to think
I grow tired of hearing of the miracle of ancient days and when asked for modern miracles I am told we are too wicked now for such things.
If God hates us that much then why not bring on another flood and start all over again? He's done it all before.
That's my whole point ... he doesn't care to intervene any more - not even by force. Are we so wicked now that we are all ignored? If so ... then I suppose (for us) God truly has failed to exist.
He does remove sin. Just ask him to.
God said He would never do that again. And He did not cause the flood out of hate for mankind! The flood was for the removal of sin. God provided the warning signs and people refused to believe. Just as they do now. We as believers tell people about the times we are living in, that the days are numbered and Gods wrath is fast approaching. They do not believe. God also said this would happen, "as in the days before the flood...".
God has and does intervene and man dismisses His miracles as natural occurrences or acts of science etc. The world does not view Gods miracles as being just that in other words.
And uhm, I would point out the six day war for your review as one of Gods modern day miracles.
Thank you Evolution Guy. But she can answer my question. Because I don't understand. Why would someone ask a question, and then completely bash answers they are given, it just totally ruins any argument, belief, credit, etc that you have.
I believe that unicorns invented corn dogs. Don't believe me? Well it doesn't matter because it happened whether you, or I, recognize it.
I used to propose the same kind of questions (innocently) when I was in preschool.
"Sorry, but God hasn't done much since the days of creation ... and that's why so many are falling away from belief."
WHAT???!!! DO YOU LIVE IN A CLOSET????
Name one war he has ended, one famine he has stopped, or one disaster he has erased ...
If God works for the side of good, then I care not of the evil men he killed ... I want to know how he adverted tragedy for others
You cannot act like He answers to us or to you Yoshi.
You believe He is in control?
Rest in that and realize His wisdom is not fathomed by men.
Your lack of understanding gets in your way and your demands that He give an account to you hinders understanding.
Ya know ... I think I have finally heard this bogus response one too many times.
You see, we are told as believers to believe and good things will happen. Believe in God and believe in Jesus - I've done that in the past.
We're then told we need to pray for what we want - and so I prayed a lot.
Not once did I see anything come of it, but I was told (as you said above) that God doesn't answer to man.
I'm to the point of snapping on this, as the whole crucible of my belief has always been that God cares and God listens to us if we believe and we pray to him ... and when I did as I was told to do I was ignored, because ... ta da ... God doesn't want to listen to anything I have to say.
I then went the line of believing God was creation, so that I could rationalize why such a supreme being would turn his head away, but listening to this whole argument has given me an epiphany ... maybe I've been wrong all of these years. Maybe God truly doesn't exist and is nothing more than a fabrication created to keep us all in line. It certainly makes more sense, given all of the facts.
Sorry, but hearing the old 'you can't expect God to listen to you because you are only human' argument just sent me over the edge. Isn't that the whole concept behind praying and believing - to share an audience with God?
I don't fear my afterlife any more. If he doesn't want to listen to me while I'm alive I sincerely doubt he will care to take the moment to decide what will happen to me when I pass on.
I apologize to those who believe (which I guess means I still also believe somewhere deep down inside), but I am so tired of being told to be the good son of a father who never bothers to show his face to me.
In human terms this is abandonment, which often brings resentment in children as they reach adulthead. I am that resentful child, for I have seen our father absent my whole lifetime.
Restore my faith ... tell me one miracle that has happened in the past twenty years that could only be attributed to God's work and that made many people's lives better. Only one ... That's all I ask. Is that too much? Because, to be honest, telling me about God's miracles given upon ancient people only furthers my becoming belief that he favored them and has abandoned us.
The six day war
one famine he has stopped?
God provided the earth and vegetation, water and sun, oxygen etc.
This has all stopped ALL of US from dying of famine. lol
As far as the famine which plagues some regions of the world I would take into consideration,
1. the region
2. mans great wealth and abundance on this planet all the surplus God gave us and the selfishness of countries to not share and supply.
This is why God says in His word "I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink." He was speaking of mans selfishness and greed to not take care of our own.
As far as disasters He has stopped, LOL
How would we even know something like that?!
If God did stop any disaster from happening we would not know since it would not be a disaster if He had stopped it.
haha...so he picks and chooses which catastrophes to stop, like Katrina for example.
"Choosy Gods choose Jif!"
GOD did none of that. Most is stories of the past history, which were manipulated by the so-called "religious/spiritual" leaders.
GOD did nothing.
The planet Earth came to be on it's own through evolution of our universe, not thru external powers of someone.
If you want to continue....Answer this question?
GOD had to have a parent, otherwise he could never be, so WHO is his father and mother?
From darkness stems the light.
So i think he has a point there.
I agreewith almost everything he said. Not with the part about God's parents though
The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot comprehend it.
Light does not come out of darkness, light shines where darkness is and exposes it.
My view doesn't stem from darkness?
Your the one who is screwed up.
I accept my own life. I have a conscience and can guide myself.
I don't need an external authority to tell me how to live, like you do.
I know the meaning of life- You apparently don't.
So, don't think that you do.
Your belief is based on man-made written text purposely wrongly interpreted, so to control the masses.
The exact same way it has been for centuries.
Hey cool, you're back. Can you answer my question? Thanks!
Anybody else here recognize that simple, logical responses are always ignored and never answered?
Yes!! All the time! I've asked a few questions in this thread already. And they're really simple. But no answers. I've asked in other threads too. Some of them just require a yes or a no. Still...nothin' Its pretty frustrating.
That's why I'm never anything but facetious
Yea, I've noticed it too. I think I'll just point out opinions that are treated like facts from now on...
Its pretty annoying. I'm still waiting. I think the testament to whether your argument/belief/knowledge/etc. is valid and worth listening to is if you can answer all questions. Not the ones you have an immediate (even though sometimes pointless) response to.
Any fool can see the absolute lack of evidence for a God, and that's the whole point. It takes a great deal of work, dedication and knowledge to understand God.
I'm saddened to hear about your plight. It's an unfortunate circumstance, but you are a stronger person now? Right.
And, I'm glad to see you're still here.
Cagsil, thank you and yes it was unfortunate but it did make me a stronger person in the end. I rely on myself to help myself now. I have looked at other religions in an attempt to find a certian peace I feel lacking and have decided that the Wicca way is what I feel most comfortable with in the end. I don't profess to know all there is about it therefore I read and read and read, but I do know that I don't have to go to a church that is run by someone who thinks things like I went through are just normal.
Really, you don't have to go to a building to worship at all. If you look back into history many a sermon was given in the out of doors where nature surrounded those that were communing. The building and the God and the preacher man are not who you should worship in the end. Life is what should be celebrated and my parents gave me that life, so I celebrate them every chance I get.
But if ones life was truly their own, they could then control the death of it as well.
In some cases. If I want to go out and smoke 5 packs of cigarettes a day, or eat only bacon, or take my own life... then yes I am using my life to control my death. But in other cases, one's death is uncontrollable.
Thanks for acknowledging me by the way. I asked you a question earlier you haven't responded to.
Quite possibly the most disreputable and utterly lacking statement I've ever heard.
You CAN control your death. It's called suicide.
Well in general we can kill ourselves and yet I know people who have tried and failed numerous times, including shooting themselves in the head with a fully operational pistol that they test fired 1st and yet it did not go off when they put it to their own head and pulled the trigger 5 times.
LIFE is meant to be Eternal.
Eternal: lasts forever.
The only reason for death, is because people do not realize the truth. Therefore the things around are killing life.
No our souls are eternal which is not the same thing as us being in control of our own lives (souls).
we do not own our souls. We are not in control of our souls coming to be nor our souls destination when we die. God is the author and finisher of life.
Opinion - No proof.
Opinion - No Proof
Suicide? Once again, I own my car. Does that mean I control when it stops running? No.
Exactly. How do you know what he intervened and stopped in this real world, or what was just coincidence? You don't.
Opinion - invalid 'point'. I made this point earlier too... many times.
Opinion - No Proof.
You do realize that (according to your beliefs) you are doing the work of Satan. By arguing gods existence in a way that alienates non-believers you are effectively pushing them away from being saved. This, by definition, is Satan's work.
"God created spirituality. Satan organized it and called it religion."
That is death of the body, not the soul which again, is WHO we really are and our soul does not belong to us, it belongs to God which was the point I had made earlier
I believe in the soul. I'm my soul, but I don't believe it belongs to God. Soul is my inner energy, and it belongs to me and nobody else. To do with it what I think best.
You normally this ignorant. Or do you really NOT understand what is being said?
No offense intended, but you seem to continue this battle, without gaining any ground.
How ever, you also seem to lack the ability to see that you're not gaining any ground. So, that could lead one to believe that you are simply burnt.
If you didn't read my post, which DESTROYS your religious belief and puts life into it's proper context, as it should be, then you've obviously must be ignorant.
This time...offense intended. Why? Because, you're used to it. Your GOD puts you down every day of your life, because of what you believe, which is untrue.
EVEN your own belief tells you that your life is your own and that you could live eternally, yet you don't believe that.
You believe that your eternal life comes after you leave Earth.
When in fact: when you're dead, will have wasted everyday of your life battling against the one thing you are purposely told NOT to do.....believe in a false god.
Our eternal life comes from God and is only given as a reward:
To the church in Ephesus
1"To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
There is a difference between eternal life and eternal death.
Oh ok so Gods Word is satans word then?
Jesus wrote these letters to the churches, it is His truth which I presented here.
And if a nonbeliever chooses to not believe it is not based on someone quoting Gods Word, or illustrating its truth.
It is based on their own obstinance towards God and His word.
When used in an evil way, YES! Jesus' words were used to start the crusades and kill large quantities of people.
Satan used god's world to do evil, and you are doing the same with Jesus' words. So, yes. I am saying that (according to your beliefs) you are doing Satan's work. You are doing harm to the very movement you are trying to help.
I am using Gods Word in a evil way?
Someone was questioning me on my statement that we are not the ones who dictate in regards to our eternal life that this is something God gives as a reward to those who love Him.
I backed up what I said with what Jesus said about it, and you call that evil?
Is it evil to convince people not to believe in Jesus?
So you justify their disbelief on something I have said about God? Show me where I have twisted Gods truth, His Word, to convince people to not believe in Christ.
Even you seem to be miss the point, as well, as who your responding to...
You're not understanding what, when and how Jesus Christ taught his followers.
And, I'd also like to note: Jesus didn't start the crusades. Man did against his teachings.
I never thought I would be laughing so hard in one of these threads.
Christianity is strong in my family and in me.
One cause for indignation in my life is someone who blabbers about the same beliefs that I have without any logic or regard for anything but a self-perpetuating arguement, causing me to reprove those people (that person) and the beliefs that I held as a moral compass.
This problem should have been addressed many centuries ago.
How ever, it wasn't and that's unfortunate.
The sole "teacher" who was helped people to realize that there is no "GOD" and that they were to be who they are through independent, free thought, was executed to prevent the real truth came out.
The unfortunate situation, which can be derived from history, is that those with power, refuse to do what is in the best interest of overall humankind.
If you're curious who the "teacher" was....it was Jesus Christ.
Yes, he was a human.
He wasn't a prophet.
He wasn't the son of "GOD".
He wasn't even a "ministry", as portrayed.
Nor, Was he a "god" himself.
He was a conscious individual who formed independent free will thoughts and taught others to do the same.
If you say, "Jesus Christ spoke of GOD in everything he taught!"
You are correct with that aspect, because he had not other way to make people understand(at THAT time).
You MUST Understand the "time" in which Jesus Christ lived. He lived in a World, where humans were being lead a stray, but those who claimed "visions", "insight to god", GOD-Kinds and others mystics like oracles.
When Jesus Christ taught his followers to realize that there isn't a GOD, as those who claim to have access. The reason he knew this- was because himself found "human consciousness" and instantly realized(faster than in human history) that the teachings from others could destroy life, as he knew it.
That's why- Jesus Christ says, "Not to follow ANY false god".
Your independent free will thinking "human conscious" person will suffer, if they follow the teachings.
His teachings were to make you realize- YOU are a "GOD" for your own life. YOU are the ONLY real Authority in your life.
You only have to accept it, to live eternal.
Hope I cleared things up for those who are believers.
If you need more information, I've done the research.
Oh, seriously people? Now you're telling me that suicide doesn't exist? I'm going to shower in my non-existent shower. I don't even know why I need to though becuase I don't exist and the oil on my skin sure as heck doesn't exist either.
I refute all beliefs by saying that nothing exists. Genius.
But you said "If one's life was truly their own, they could then control the death of it as well"
Why not say "soul" instead of life then??
Thanks for not responding to me again.
So it isn't you who made the decision to come into the forum and disregard other's beliefs, that was God? Because God controls your life?
It seems it's that way. She doesn't own her life
Again, you are confusing our physical life here in the body to that of that of soul.
I stated, that we are given this body which houses our true selves, our soul.
With our body and all the physicalities of it we can control what we do, what we believe etc. But God is the creator and owner of the soul, which again, is Who we really are. We are all Gods. We belong to Him.
We can reject him in this world, that is the choice HE GAVE US. Do you understand what I am saying now?
If it not for that choice, if it not for Gods love for us, WE would not exist.
But man still chooses to believe God away, like He does not exist.
We did not create God.
As much as atheists would like to believe that as well. God is the author and finisher of life.
He would not control the actions of man, it would negate the gift of free will.
We are not puppets. If we were none of you would be in here arguing that He does not exist!
Again, I emphasize that this is all opinion. You have no proof.
Also, I would like to again state that you are doing (according to your beliefs) Satan's work, by alienating non believers and pushing them away from believing the one true god.
well i have wanted to say that for some time but didn't have the guts.
God has given enough proof in His matchless creation already !!
Matchless creation ? If I were God I'd have done better.
I don't understand what you're saying, no. Have I argued that He does not exist? I'm just asking you questions. Some of which you have ignored and not answered.
It seems as if she does that with any response that she can't retort with scripture.
You got your life from your parents. No?
If not, then how are you here?
GOD didn't create you.
I had two parents who brought me into this world.
If you say, GOD made the world. Provide proof? You cannot.
If you say, I don't need to prove God is, he just is? I'd say, You need to seek help.
Humankind controls their own individual life. Guidance by any other authority, other than for self-authority- defeats the purpose of life.
Ok the question was: What proof do atheists have the God does not exist?
So atheists have given you their answers, their personal beliefs that make them think that there is no God. They answered your question, without bashing your belief.
But then you resort to bashing theirs with scripture, your beliefs, "facts", and ideas about God.
I'm sorry ma'am but don't ask a question and then pick apart someone's answer when they don't believe the same as you.
"and when the answer that you want
is in the question that you state
come what may
come what may"
Ignore my posts all you want. But you're doing more harm than good. Have a nice day.
Lead the way Cole ... this whole conversation pushed this sheep (me) out into the pasture. I'll take my chances with the non-believers as they are at least willing to admit there is more to fixing this world than believing a supreme being will do the work for them.
My days of whispering up to deaf ears are over ... I'll make my concessions with the living that are here down below.
WALKING IN CIRCLES, WALKING IN CIRCLES, WALKING IN CIRCLES................................................. I'M DIZZY!
You never twisted his words. You just presented them in a way that alienates non believers, hence pushing them away from religion. Stop twisting the question and answer it.
Is it evil to convince people not to believe in Jesus?
P.S. Yes or no is all I want to see. Don't bother quoting me scripture or defending yourself with a self-righteous (key being the 'self-') passion.
What point? I have my own point here.
I understand fully what Jesus taught his followers. I also understand how those teachings got twisted from his followers to religion.
"God created spirituality. Satan organized it and called it religion."
Don't pretend to be above me, underhiswings. You don't know me or what I believe. I am not 'the darkness' as you preach. That's the problem with Christianity. Anybody who believes differently is 'darkness' or 'evil'.
Never said I am a "Christian" nor do I follow a "religion"
So what do you preach then? What are you quoting? Explain this to me.
I believe in what Messiah taught, that is all and that is enough.
No greater teacher exists.
But aren't those teachings what we have known as human beings to be our inner self ? Aren't they within us since the begining of mankind? Or there were no teachings before Jesus/Messiah. He put in beautiful or intelligent words what all of us know.
We could have gone all the way without him.
I want you to explain this to me, underwishings
His very purpose for manifesting was to be a living servant and sacrifice for the sins of all mankind and to teach the clear understanding of Torah as He was the one who gave it to Moses and He came and lived it perfectly.
The perfect one who laid down His life so that we might live the life He lived. He showed how it was to be done.
The "inner self" is nothing compared to His Life and I give up my own life and accept His life as a replacement of mine because His is eternal and mine is corrupt.
To lose your life in order that you can find it, this is hard to accept.
"I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD AND ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN ME WALKS IN DARKNESS"
But you never heard him preach. You only read what other people said he preached.
You never heard George Washington talk either.
Or Cesar or King James or Henry The 8th or Socrates or Abe Lincoln or anyone of a 100 dozen others, but people wrote down what they said and million upon millions believe they said it.
And if Messiahs teachings are all totally made up, it is a really fine job of teaching anyways.
On that part I will never debate you, as the teachings were definitely good ones.
Which brings about the question. If (a mighty if) it was proven tomorrow that there was no God, would we still choose to lead good lives anyway? I know I would, but I'm curious to hear if others would live it up or maintain their current path in life.
When is anyone going to listen to what I have said?
Blind leading the blind.
The context of what JESUS CHRIST taught is out of context.
Maybe I should reiterate what I meant ...
I was speaking mainly of the teaching:
Do onto others as you would want them to do onto you
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
It wasn't anything against you.
I've been here now for about two weeks. After completing 20+ years of research.
I bring NEWS for those want the truth.
I'm not trying dismiss people's belief.
I want people to UNDERSTAND their own belief. Because, obviously they happen to read the words, but miss the context in which they were written and why they were written as they were.
This one particular lack of knowledge is KILLING humankind.
On that we can agree ... To quote written words makes one literate enough to read and functional enough to speak ... To truly understand their meaning makes one cognizant of their worth ... and to allow others to discover their meaning for themselves makes one trusting enough that others can be cognizant too
But, when the context is skewed to begin with, it makes true understanding impossible.
Agreed ... one can beleive in a dragon when he hears it's mighty roar and witnesses it flying through the air ... but one needs to be cautious of ancient books written about dragons, regardless of the source, for they might prove to be nothing more than mythology.
For dragons to be considered worthy of praise they must do what it is dragons do (for better or for worse) and only then are any eyewiteness reports heeded by all, as no one could deny the dark shadow caused by a dragon passing overhead.
If such a dragon truly still exists, then surely it must growl to be listened to by all ...
Really ? How are you going to make people understand your truth?. I'm sure your truth doesn't work for me .
My truth works for all. Because it's based on research.
But, what makes you say that?
Very simple: there are a lot of things you say which I don't agree with. I don't follow any book, well written ,twisted or
not. My beliefs are not based on any religion.
You've being doing 20 years research. What's your conclusion then ?
My research has lead to understanding of the time, when Jesus Christ lived. Knowing and understanding the human aspect, which he referred to in his words, was not to minister religious belief.
Rather, to promote human consciousness, so those who were in the dark(walking, eating and surviving by nature's guidance), would walk the Earth and choose for themselves.
Once a person can think for themselves, they become their own authority, therefore isn't required to be guided by any other means.
If you were not burdened by the atrocities of others, you would live forever. Therefore Life is eternal.
Yea but I don't go around preaching to others that these people had the ultimate understanding of the universe and how things work. You haven't heard him say ANYTHING, and, like Cagsil said, you take it all out of context anyways.
You make no strong point there.
You bring anything Jesus Christ said....
Come on...bring it out in the open.
I'll tell you what it really means.
"Do onto others as you would want them to do onto you"
That's all I have, but I think it's worthy advice.
The mind that sits in darkness cannot teach them who walk in the light.
Jesus Christ told all his followers not to seek a false god.
Because, it defeat the purpose of thinking for yourself and living your life.
To seek external guidance is a flaw in oneself to find the answer within oneself.
If you can not guide your own life....What is your purpose of living?
What to live for someone else? By other's words?
Accept Life, Use your consciousness to benefit humankind, to better the world.
Any inaction to improve life only destroys life.
You're full of ready made quotes like :
Any inaction to improve life only destroys life.
Which I don't agree.
So, by you doing nothing.......just sitting on the sidelines....and not improving life.....Doesn't destroy life?
Yes, it does. Just because, your life is to perserve humankind, as well, as your own life.
By doing nothing, you are not helping. Again, that destroys life.
I thought that was pretty clear.
Messiah taught His followers to follow Him and Him alone and all else is a false god.
Again, your interpretation of a "messiah" is skewed. Because you don't understand the time in which HE lived.
And, by the way, calling it a GOD, because you believe doesn't make it fact. You learned from religious/spiritual leaders.
I seriously doubt that. I do not doubt that humans would write that down in order to keep their own followers in line. That makes sense. If you follow Allah (a different, but equal path to god) then you are a sinner, and we will wage a crusade to rid your evil from the face of this earth! It goes the other way too, though. Muhammad never preached Jihad. Like always, humans twist the words of prophets to fit their own needs. In doing this they easily sucker the weak-minded people into following blindly. This is how evil is done. Crusades, Napoleon, Hitler, Jihads, wars in general. They all wreak of human corruption and the twisting of divine words.
Your existance is proof that there is a God. God is here whether we believe or not.
That's an opinion. Don't speak it like it is fact. Read the past 10 pages and you will see me make this point MANY MANY MANY times in a row, without a rebuttal. (Still waiting on your answer atomswifey.)
Are you a stand-up comic?
You should be with crank comments like the above.
Your existence isn't proof "GOD" exists.
We've proved Evolution.
If you cannot dismiss any of the perceived and PROVEN facts we've learned about Life?
Then, don't claim an external authority created it, because common sense and reality, says different.
So, does your own consciousness.
I wouldn't necessarily argue that evolution disproves God's existence. It does disprove creationism (and therefore God as Christians understand him).
Let me know what that something is, (when you are ready).
Creationism in general. The earth is 4,000 years old...
The Earth is a lot older than 4,000 year old. Science has proven that.
Not very specific, I'm afraid.
Creationism-NOT disproved by anything.
4,000 yrs...NOT in the Bible, (sorry).
The comment above yours is a great example of someone who argues with no depth of knowledge. Or maybe he just made an honest typo.
No depth of knowledge? If you're talking about the bible, you're right. The document is about as useful as a child's tale. How about an argument with no depth of thought? I've seen plenty of that in this thread.
Explain to me how evolution doesn't disprove creationism.
The Earth is only 4,000 years old? Nobody told the trees ...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … -tree.html
Don't read about the 9,550 year old tree in Sweden as it was carbon dated and I don't care to get into that age old debate how carbon dating isn't reliable.
Down below it mentions bristlecone pines in the US that were dated back to about 5000 years ago ... not by carbon dating, but by the rings they grew annually - every year - and this cannot be contested.
If you don't know about it, then how can you argue it? Do yourself a favor, at least read it, and then make fun of it. That way you have a little credibility. Until then, your comments are empty thoughts.
I know a bit about it. I read the majority of it a long time ago and tossed it out as fiction. (I was forced to read it.) I'm using some of the faulty points in there to prove a point. You're simply side tracking the point by saying that my knowledge is worthless. Ad hominem much?
Evolution breaks religious teachings, because the foundation for religious/spiritual leaders is based on deceitfulness and dishonesty, where evolution is based on what we can PROVE is life.
Sweet, that sums it up then folks. Evolution confirmed. A scientific THEORY proven by philosophy.
If it was for human consciousness....HUMANKIND would not be where it has EVOLVED to.
I thought that would common sense to any rational self-think human.
I'm still not seeing any science here. I wonder why...?
Maybe you're inept? And, don't understand science?
Hmmm...that is a possibility.
So, I guess, until your "enlightenment" comes to be, through your religious/spiritual belief, we'll have to wait for you to catch up with the rest of society.
Oh well, that's ashame.
I guess the avoidance of good counter-arguments confirms the 'Religion caters to the weak and weak-minded' theory as well.
I'm more interested in hearing what 5000 year old trees are doing on a (supposedly) 4000 year old world.
Easy, they were 1,000 yrs old when they were created!
Sorry, had to get that one in?
How old was Adam, when he was created?
He never existed....it's a story, to justify "GOD" existence.
Not based on any fact.
From a philosophical point of view, the belief of something brings it into existence for that person. As such, for those who believe in God, he definitely exists.
As for me, I chose now to believe in Bahamut, which brings him into existence for me.
FACT: the Universe came to be.(how is irrelevant)
FACT: the Earth(with the moon) created liveable life-forms.
FACT: humankind came to be.(where did it evolve from? still being worked on). More importantly, who cares. Stop living in the past.
FACT: Jesus Christ was a real man? Yes! It has been proven he was real? Right. In my research, it is fact.
FACT: Religion of the time of Jesus Christ, according to history(which can be skewed, unless independently authenticated) he did teach people something.
FACT: Religion purposely incorporates Jesus Christ's life, so to perpetuate it's own agenda. Without revealing the true truth about life.
FACT: Human beings have an internal ability to guide themself. Therefore, no other authority is required.
That can only lead to one place - Humankind answers to no one and must live their life to their own self-responsible accord.
Excuse me, 6,000 years since humans have been here.... but wait, didn't we just discover a near human skeleton that was over a million years old?
Interesting! Talk about no depth of knowledge.
Someone please explain, 4,000yrs age? I don't find it in the Bible.
If it's not there, then WHY use it to rebut creationism??
According to the Jewish calendar the first humans (Adam and Eve) existed around 6,000 years ago. This obviously isn't true.
What about the world being created in 6 days? Is that true?
No, science proved it took billions of years before it could support life.
The Jewish calendar is also NOT in the Bible.
The jewish calendar?
Of course not, the mystics of religion wouldn't want tell people there is remote possibility that they will vanish/die when the calendar runs out.
How ever, I also don't take or put any interests in the Jewish calendar, because mystics of another "religion" developed it, based on a false foundation.
Proof of evolution:
The Short Proof of Evolution
Responses To Some Common Objections
Creationism in the Scientific Curriculum
The first document offers the proof, the second refutes all arguments given against evolution, and the third explains the issues with creationism
<sarcasm>But, that means the earth wasn't created by god in 6 days! These articles are false, yoshi!</sarcasm>
I just realized (I think) you were being serious when you posted these links to prove the science behind the THEORY of evolution. Please correct me.
This "essay" pretty much sums up the credibility of Ian's views on Science.
http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/essays/ … anding.htm
I don't see you attempting to provide proof for creationism.
Please read the third comment down on page 13.
Go ahead, default to personal attacks.... typical. If you have such a deep understanding then actually respond to the articles. Until you come up with actual responses, your retorts are empty posts, devoid of thought and content.
That about sums up the post you referenced. That post is about as relevant as a creationism is real.
It's not a personal attack, it's the truth, you admitted it yourself:
"No depth of knowledge? If you're talking about the bible, you're right. The document is about as useful as a child's tale. How about an argument with no depth of thought? I've seen plenty of that in this thread.
Explain to me how evolution doesn't disprove creationism."
and I've already responded:
If you don't know about it, then how can you argue it? Do yourself a favor, at least read it, and then make fun of it. That way you have a little credibility. Until then, your comments are empty thoughts.
There's nothing more to say between you and I. Don't be so sensitive, I'm just one less BIBLE believer you have to deal with now.
That was meant to say that I haven't done in depth studies of the bible. If you read my other posts you'd realized that I was forced to read the majority of it when I was younger. So, yes - I do have some understanding of the subject. Maybe it's not as much as a pastor, but that doesn't make my views invalid.
Don't be so sensitive! Perhaps you should take some of your own advice.
You have nothing more to say to me. Don't worry, that's just one less rational thinker that you have to deal with.
Me too, but I'm stuck doing boring repetitive work for one of my promoting teams, so I might as well hit refresh and hope maybe she'll realize her ways need to change. (And watch comedy central... or maybe not - BEVERLY HILLS COP AGAIN!?)
Beverly Hills Cop was a good movie.
Comedy central is good when you need to laugh.
How ever, I don't think she would realize that her ways need to change, simply because she hardened to her supposed faith.
Yeah, she needs to be saved, but so do a lot of other believers.
They need to be saved from themselves.
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