Who can post the best argument about the existence or the non-existence of God and can support their answers using real logic? Don't use faith based logic when proving the existence of God.
Non existance of God is never supported by faith-based logic.
Because faith doesn't have logic at all. Because you need faith to believe in God, not the way around. And you don't need faith to know there's no God. You need logic.
and the existance of God can only be supported by faith. A thing that is unprovable.
evolution proves there is no god and the term "faith based logic," would be classed as a oxymoron I suspect.
Self promoting ?
I didn't know you needed that Darwin !
Proves NOTHING of the kind!!
Well it does... IF YOU BELIEVE evolution propaganda.
I don't believe in....wait...let me change that...I know there is no "god" but evolution doesn't disprove the existence of a "god."
Not sure why you think that.
To me, evolution works quite well in a "god" view. It also works well in a non-god view.
Really. How is that? Adaptation to natural environmental changes and adaptation to random mutations.
Assuming your "god" - as most people's seems to - had US in mind., where is there room for a god?
Except - and I could accept this one - a god that threw it all in to "see what happened."
Not one that "created us in his own image and made us born into sin."
That's not true at all. Evolution doesn't prove there is no god. It proves that not everything they say in the Bible isn't true. Which isn't the first time.
You could still say God created evolution. Even though evolution is a fact because we could observe it, how it works and why is still a theory.
Evolution paves the way for life on Earth.
Evolution as proof- Science. It hasn't been disproved yet.
God- Does not exist and to think one does so, is only denying yourself the eternal life you seek.
Another note, worth saying- An agrument about whether or not a "GOD" exists, without using Jesus Christs teachings, is inept.
Jesus Christ wasn't a teacher of religion. He was a teacher of consciousness.
Religion, after Jesus Christ was murdered, only was his teachings, scripted for religious doctrines.
Otherwise, he was never teaching any religious text about a "false" idol or "god".
Religious/spiritual leaders in the time Jesus Christ lived, didn't want him to free their "slaves", which were under their FULL control, because these people couldn't think for themselves.
Example: (remember- Jesus Christ wasn't teaching religion) so when you put this example into real form, the TRUTH becomes obvious.
Jesus Christ told them about the "darkness" which they lived in and to seek the "light of heaven".
Darkness: every single human being of that time was walking and controlled by Nature's automatic guidance. Like animals, humans were subjected Nature's control, in the beginning.
Light of Heaven: was for each person to realize that they too have the power he had, which was to think for themselves, and human consciousness was the light of heaven.
Heaven, according to Jesus' properly interpreted text was EARTH!
Any more question.
Also, religions(all) were and have been dismissed as "mysticism". Mysticism is defined as an "illusion".
Enough said- No God!
Evolution is faith based more heavily, but most don't realize that.
Utter garbage. Where on earth do you get such a ridiculous notion?
No wonder your puerile religion is losing membership so drastically if you go 'round spouting such nonsense.
I've read you say on several occasions that evolution is a fact. I would be interested in your explaining this because most of the people that I hear talk this way don't sound like they know what they're talking about. To me, they don't know enough to know the difference between a theory and a fact.
As I see it, evolution is a theory, that is, it's offered as a story that explains those phenomena that we observe in nature, while the "facts" are the phenomena of nature that we actually observe (like photosynthesis or certain properties of light). Of coures, there are also historical facts like "George Washington died in 1799." Both creationists and evolutionists are theorizing as to what explanation best fits the facts we observe.
I'm sure you view it differently, so I'd be interested in how it is you think that evolution is a "fact" when most people see evolution more of an explanation of what occurs rather than a phenomenon of nature that is directly observable (like those phenomena that I mentioned above or others).
It is a fact... evolution in action.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 104000.htm
It is a rare observance but it is factual proof that evolution does happen.
LOL, allopatric speciation? Maybe they are just chasing two different birds.
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/s … hidae.html
"Evolution in action" = fact
"Evolution in action" = factual proof that evolution occurs
I guess what you are telling me is that that there is no theorizing when it comes to evolution and that "evolution in action" is proof that "evolution does happen...."
Well the theorizing would come from "why" they separated to begin with, right? Fact, yes it does happen. Essentially we ask the same questions as you.
Why would God do such and such... you give us a theory and call it a fact. At the end of the debate you say "to survive".
We ask why evolution occurs... we give you a theory and call it a fact. At the end of the debate we say "to survive".
However, one is a mental state or spiritual state of mind.
The other is a physical state in all its glory.
Yet in all my Bible reading at least "I" did not forget that neither can survive without the other.
There is a reason we developed sentience and I do believe that our mental development was an evolutionary occurrence it is our instinct to communicate in order to survive.
Take a look around.
Evolution is both fact and theory.
It's a fact that changes in the genes of biological organisms happen over time. This is an objective, verifiable observation.
The scientific explanation of that fact, known as evolution theory, is as the name suggests, a theory.
All scientific knowledge is essentially theoretical and accepted on a tentative basis. This is because it's possible that a previously unknown fact will be discovered that invalidates a current theory. This is because not all scientific facts about the universe are currently known, therefore nothing can be accepted as absolutely correct.
Theories are accepted or not through the process of testing and peer review. The theory of evolution is widely accepted within the scientific community, i.e. most scientists believe it's the best explanation of the facts and it has not been invalidated through testing.
No scientist can consider a theory (even evolution) to be correct. It can be considered very likely correct, or highly probable. The theory of evolution is considered by most scientists as very likely correct and highly probable.
The facts and theory of evolution don't and can't prove or disprove the existence of god as defined in christianity. However, it does allow us to (tentatively) accept that biological organisms developed into their current forms over time. This is difficult to reconcile with a literal interpretation of the creation story as described in the book of Genesis, in the Bible. Indeed it makes the truth of a literal interpretation of Genesis very unlikely. But again that has no bearing on the existence or non existence of god.
Humans had to come from somewhere.
It's against common sense to entertain the notion that we just popped into existence from "nowhere".
Common sense works the other way. It's perfectly logical to have things evolve over billions and billions of years than to have some magic person in the sky that no one has ever seen or heard of before.
I'm not knocking your religion or any religion but there are too many religions out there and many are older than Christianity.
Common sense tells you that there is no singular religion or that even a god exists.
Scientists have already created simple life in labs with amino acids, oxygen and carbon, just like early earth.
So what's the "logical" connection between that "simple life" and....human beings?
None that I can see.
Might as well compare ourselves to a tree or something. After all, a tree grows, it has "life" of a sort.
Yet there's no logical comparison there to humankind, which feels and thinks and acts and Loves and all that.
We humans are on an entirely different level as anything scientists can create.
Why waste the effort trying to know or understand where humans come from? Existence exists, that's all you ever need to know.
Trying to explain the past is for archeologists and scientists.
If you're neither, then go into one of those specialties and make something of your future.
Future, where you are headed is all the matters.
Living in the past, isn't going to help you live in the present.
You can have one reality, at that is based on absolutes and basic fundamental facts.
To seek guidance from any other source other than yourself, defeats the purpose of having a consciousness.
haha sorry but I gotta laugh at this...
'cause to seek guidance only from myself would be stupid. I prefer to seek guidance from Whoever allowed me to exist in the first place! And that would be God.
And I'm of the opinion that we should know where we've been (and where we came from) before we're able to know where we're going.
But scientists' focus is often so misdirected.
Now, you're making ME laugh.
"cause to seek guidance only from myself would be stupid.? are you that dumb?
I prefer to seek guidance from whoever allowed me to exist in the first place! and that would be God.
Really, weren't your born. Didn't you have parents?
On another note- just curious-----when you make a decision and you act on it....that's god will?
I think not....that is your forming a thought in your head and acting on it.
What part do you not understand about your own consciousness?
Why don't you want control of your own life?
Why don't you want to accept responsibility for your entire life?
You contradict everything known about human existence.
Oh that is rich! (and I mean it in a funny way).
I'm glad if I contradict everything known about human existence! Because I no longer live for myself, but for that God who is not human. If He controls me, I'm happy. But of course I'm human and fallible, so I'm sure I do not always do His will. But I'll die trying!
Excuse you? A GOD who isn't human?
Wasn't Jesus Christ a human being, who born on Earth?
He claim to be "GOD" did he not?
Oh dear... you disturb me.
What parameters do you give to Gods will?
Suppose he spoke to you in a dream, urging you to throw yourself in front of speeding train for the betterment of society. Would you willingly do that? God is telling you the world would be much improved if you just tossed your life away, how could you resist? Seems pretty tempting, doesn't it?
But if that's not tempting enough, here's another proposition for you! God tells you to shoot an abortion Doctor. We all know how the la-la religionists feel about abortion. All you have to do is pull the trigger...bang! It seems so easy. Afterall, you are merely doing Gods work.
And what about homosexuals? Surely the world would be a much better place if we could wipe out all those fags over night? Couldn't we just round them all up and errr... gas them? If God tells you it's fine then, gas away. Gas away!
Jee... i almost forgot the paedophiles. What a wretched scurge in society. Aren't they an absolute abomination? How can we dispose of them? Surely God has a plan!
You may feel these ideas are far fetched... the sad reality is, there are people walking in todays society, fuelled by their misplaced faith and ideologically unsound beliefs who do genuinely feel they would be doing Gods work to rid society of it's more unseemly elements.
"Suppose he spoke to you in a dream, urging you to throw yourself in front of speeding train for the betterment of society. Would you willingly do that? God is telling you the world would be much improved if you just tossed your life away, how could you resist?"
Hmmm.... now let me see.... if I remember rightly God DID ask HIS OWN SON to allow the ungodly to crucify Him in order that the lives of all people in the "world would be much improved" - and Christ was tempted to resist, BUT HE said "Never the less, your will not mine" and every believer since has needed to make the same decision.
Now as to being irresistible, well what do WE have to fear? - our belief and knowledge lets us see a loving God who will welcome us BACK into His spiritual kingdom:
John 12:24-26 (King James Version)
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
You see all you antichrists suffer one disadvantage in trying to deal with believers.... you cannot understand what we see in the bible because your minds and vision is clouded with the things of this world, which you hold dearly, yet these things are but 'filthy rags' and worthless...you just cannot see this.
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
You know, it is kind of pathetic that people need to use scripture to prove their point.
They choose an irrational position to which to argue from and expect others to understand their ignorance.
I've said before and I'll say it again-
Live your own life!
Take control of your life!
You are the only person who can direct your life!
You are the only person responsible for your life!
You have a HUMAN consciousness and conscience- Yet BLINDLY let some other authority complete control of your life!
Many of you are severely dense!
And when you do die, because your death is more likely to come before mine, you will never know the difference, because you'll be DEAD.
No After-life. No Life-after-Death!
Just 6' deep into the ground you go.
And, that unfortunately is a complete waste of a human life.
"You know, it is kind of pathetic that people need to use scripture to prove their point."
But that IS my point, because:
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
We (believers) live BY His word, and we live by faith in His word, and we live well.
"Take control of your life!" (Cagsil)
"You are the only person who can direct your life!" (Cagsil)
"You are the only person responsible for your life!" (Cagsil)
I genuinely feel sorrow that you truly believe that you alone are responsible for your own life.
So you will decide when you die?
You will decide whether you get cancer?
You will have success in everything you do?
The reality is that you have the choice of serving either God or Lucifer, that's it, two options.
This whole existence is purely a period when you are thrust into human form and injected into Lucifer's kingdom in order for God to see whether you belong to God or Lucifer.
It's not what you say that shows that, it's how you live your life, in rebellion to God, or in relationship with God.
Doing YOUR will, or doing Gods will.
Therefore a god breathed life into us from a handful of dust and created the garden of Eden to make sure we are born into sin.....
There is no God. Only time creates us, saves us and even destroys us. People believe that God creates them and write their future before their birth. He fixes his destiny what will he do and so on and so on. Then why the people are being punished for their wrong doings, smuggling, theft, or rape. They should not be punished because God had already fixed the future of that person that he will take birth and do crime. Then why he is being punsihed in earth or even in hell for all God's mistakes. As there are sayings - Even a leaf cannot move without permission of God.
You speak of time as if it's a causal agent, which it's not. Second, your paragraph reflects a lack of understanding about the concept of predestination. While I recognize that there are some groups within Christianity that espouse this view (Calvinists believe this, for example), there is nothing in Christian doctrine that necessarily compels someone to believe what you have stated, namely, that man has no free will and that God has predetermined all of his actions simply because He has perfect knowledge of those actions.
About the existence of God, using logic... I can.
I can inderstand that you reject faith based people, because you have no defense for that. But We are both neither right or wrong, we are not omniscent and do not know the ending, we are not gods! we can not build life with our hands, Testube babies and clones already have to have the once cell provided, we can not create the stand alone one cell? Or bring back the dead, stop a hurricane, or change events..?
I choose to believe by faith, you chose not to, say as you will, but this question solves nothing, but sends us into useless speculations and a never ending spiral.
Science has Speculation and some weaker proofs man did evolve, but you can not build a human skeliton out of one or two badly de-composed Monkey Bones found in the Durt?
Evolution can not and never does explain, how man got here? How did the Universe as we know it now actual become? Who or what created the Big bang?
Pascal spent a lifetime, and in the end could not prove and or disprove anything, so he chose to believe just in case?
Darwin died torn with it, an-unbeliver whom at the last min. consented to his maids and servants and help being lectured about God, some possible reconition that everyone could believe as they wish to. Maybe Pascals realization that others may choose different than he. or Possibly That he had not all the answers and what was right for him was not for others?
To Me, inside, God is Real, and for myself, I will chose Faith in God every time. Not, fait in man made religions, there is a difference between Church the Building, and Church-the Body of Christ.
I pick Christ for myself. You, are not wrong to pick as you see fit to. Because we have no answers, we are only human.
But...Faith is as valid a mental premice, as evolution is. IMO
In friendly discussion only
You have to let him in, (GOD). You will never know anyone or anything unless you first let them or it into your life and have a relationship.
In the beginning he created the heaven and earth. Are you not standing on the evidence.
Who has the best argument for the existence of GOD?
The Messiah already answered this.
He told us, go read it and listen.
If you mean the Bible, I pass
Can't you explain it in your own words ? It seems that no believer can
I have no greater words to give then what Messiah said.
When someone explains something in a way that nobody can any better,
then I just let it speak for itself.
Personally, I have seen GOD more than once, so I have my own "proof" and my word is all I can offer on that matter.
No need to defend it at all.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
WIthout using faith based logic about the existence of God?
If there was no God why are there thousands of refrences in the world that point to some form of ultimate or suprior being? If God dosen't exisit why would people either worship or pay homage to any god, its almost an instinct to follow something. Archeology over the years have discovered multiple refrences to some kind of superior being in remote cultures cut off by other civilations.
As for the evolutin question, evolution does excist with in the human,animal,and nature. If you compare the evolutional science and works of religion you can find comparisons that can't be ignored. Around the world natural carvings are abound like the Grand Canyon in the USA. Some scientist say this canyon was carved out threw the years by erotion by the flow of water that passes threw it. OK, now lets look to the Bible and the great flood. If the flood did cover the whole earth as the Bible says covering the tallest mountain how long would it take for ALL the water to receede and wouldn't eroscion and landscape change because of it? Evolution is also evedent in human beings just go to a tall ship exhibit, the average man was around 5ft tall today (excluding basketball players) the average is 6ft. Man has evolved as his enviroment has evolved around him.
Faith based logic does come into play at some point because of the use of the Bible as a historical map to uncovering the past.
This is a great question asked by many for centuries, for centuries there has not been an answer just speculation. There will never be an answer to your question. This is one of those questions that will remain a mystery throughout the existence of this world and lifetime. No one will ever know.
That is a great question my friend. I think the proof is all around us, I personally look at nature and the way it is set perfectly for us to inhabit the earth,I look at people and the unbelievable kindness and love that they show one another, how we sacrifice our lives for each other and our children. I look at the mystery of the sea the highest peak of the montains.I look at my family and there unconditional love for me despite all my defects of charactor, I know this argument may not sound that convincing but i believe God is in the most simplest things,a kind word on a bad day, bumping into a lost friend on the street, a phone call just when you need someone to talk to.I hope this lifts you up , God Bless
The Homosexual Rats of the World curse you Waynet!!
Count all the posts, obviously a lot of people genius=)
Not for the people looking for answers my friend, you can't learn anything from listening to just one side, this is obviously an important subject to a lot of people here, you may not like it but since you're a good man, I'm sure you can respect it=y
Yes mate this religion thing can be debated till the end of time, meanwhile I've got hubpages to write...!
How ever, what you deem as respectful of others....those who are believers refuse to listen to logic or reason.
Then some even go as far to insult those who want to rationally talk or discuss the topic.
It's almost to the point where it all becomes senseless, meaningless and yes- boring.
I guess God, Himself, could post the best argument.
God only knows... I was just trying to give the best answer to the original question about "who" (or whom). I like answers from the source whenever possible. Don't ask me.
Well, I guess you have a long wait then. That's all I'm going to say on that.
Nah, you won't have to wait too long, He's gonna meet with you soon enough!
Your request is fallacious. Faith IS a presupposition in all our reasoning.
A conversation between a student and his professor in the lecture hall, worth reading and answers this question.
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty.
He asks one of his new students to stand and.....
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Prof : Is God good?
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Prof:My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.
Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof:You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Prof:Is Satan good?
Prof:Where does Satan come from?
Prof:That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Prof:Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Prof:So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Prof:So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Prof:Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Prof:According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Student: No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold . Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat
We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy . Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it .
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.
Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent.. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable. )
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir... The link between man & God is FAITH . That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
What I don't understand is why there has to be an argument about it. There never seems to be any middle ground and people argue over the implementation of organized religion rather than any evidence.
God exists if you want him to exist and he doesn't if you don't. That is why you have the believers trying to prove the positive argument and the non believers trying to prove the negative. It is an endless cycle. Any true believer knows that you believe when you are ready to believe and any non believer believes what his life has proven to him.
Rather than the believers arguing about the existence of God they should just prove it by living a spiritual example and then maybe the non believer will be more open to the theory through that example.
I was talking about the existence of God when I mentioned faith-based logic=)
best argument about the existence or the non-existence of God and can support their answers using real logic and not faith-based logic
There is no Good without God.
Good that comes from purity of Heart is Godliness.
"Good" that comes from an impure heart is evil.
Ever considered brain chemistry determines your actions - good or bad - more so than the heart?
Isn't it high time religious fruit-loops were dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world?
One question I need to ask of the believers : What do you feel you are losing if you gave up your faith in God? And how do you feel it would impact you psychologically? Ok, so that's two questions.
In that case it would be soved by a few injections or even shock therapy. Or how about a lobotomy.
Give them more drugs.
No-one is guilty of any crime. It's all "insanity", a chemical imbalance, NO?
If you have a personality disorder and commit a heinous crime then yes, it's a result of impaired brain functioning. It has nothing to do with the heart. The heart doesn't think, nor for that matter feel.
If your wife/girlfriend poisoned you after discovering you were having an affair (hypothetically speaking of course) this would be a crime of passion, motivated by anger and betrayal. Anger and betrayal are emotions or products of brain functioning. The heart doesn't produce an emotional response, the brain does.
Im not interested in determining whether ones actions are the result of insanity or simply a refusal to acknoledge responsibility, I'm only interested in proving the fact that misguided people who believe 'heart-felt feelings' or 'I know god exists because I feel him in my heart' are mistaken. And so many religious people are desperately mistaken.
first someone needs to define God,then we can apply logic and reason because the argument must be about an agreed upon subject.if you mean an original source of all existence your mind becomes a hamster treading a wheel with no end.I'd like to add that every thing perceived is subjective so in any human mental endeavor we must assign a starting point.simply put,to this very moment no one has proved the number one.we accept it without proof.this arbitrary assignment is called faith.when you were little someone said this is the number one.all we could answer was OK.metaphysics is based on unprovable fact.do thoughts exist?only one answer,they must.no empirical proof,just like the number one.now we can apply reason and logic to pursue understanding.any other method is magical thinking....peace...
Well, I think you would need to establish what came first : god or faith?
Can faith exist without God? Is faith without god a truly bankrupt concept devoid of all meaning? Is faith without the existence of god little more than a placebo? Is god himself the ultimate placebo?
Are religionists merely getting high on placebo?
Very few religionists define what faith means to them. Once they give definitions, those definitions can then be analysed and shown for what they are : empty, intangible responses based around a placebo. All faith has holes. Even the strongest most robust faith on earth can be sunk through clever analysis and logic.
Faith comes from hearing the word of God, and is the belief in what has not yet been seen. Without faith we cannot please God.
Most Christians can say they have faith, few can say they TRUST God. I started this faith walk 16 years ago. As I have always been an objective kinda guy, I decided straight off to live the life and rely totally on God for my needs.
This was in reality my only option, because prior to 'coming to faith' I had always earned (or taken) my provisioning from whoever was lower down the food chain than me.
Clearly manipulating, deceiving and intimidating weaker folk was outside of my newly found faith remit! - so I just had to sit back and trust God.
I made a rule that anybody I told of my predicament was exempt from providing me with provision. This meant that I always needed to see Gods hand in how I managed to stay alive.
I could write a book on all the strange and wondrous ways that God showed His hand to me over a three year period.
I don't have to doubt Gods existence, nor His ability to protect me in any circumstance - as long as I have trusted Him and have faith in Him.
This whole debate seems to be a mutual backslapping society for people who, for some reason, want to try and persuade themselves that their non belief in God is a secure position to take.
That's a shame, I hope they can see what they are missing before they miss what they could receive.
Do you have a human consciousness and a conscience?
If so, it was you who turned your life around...NOT a supposed GOD.
Please keep it real.
You simply make a choice, not to live as you were and now you're not.
How difficult is that to understand?
Believe me I had very little to do with 'turning my life around' and was the most reluctant 'convert' you will ever have seen, I enjoyed my sin greatly and my dabbling in the occult, and my rune stones, tarot cards and biorhythm calculators, I enjoyed predatory sex and constant drug and booze balancing, fast reckless driving, pornography and generally abusing anybody who got in my way.
Then one day I realised that my 'trading up' in 'spiritual' power was getting me involved with ever more demanding spiritual forces, and my 'friends' were getting to be weirder and weirder.
I first approached a church to try and see if they could get the demons off my back, with NO thought of joining them, but 'seek and you shall find' was the byword, and having sought Gods power I found Christ and told Him that if He could deal with the fella on my shoulder; who told me I belonged to him; I was His, indeed I told both of them that WHOEVER proved they were the 'man' could have me for eternity.
That night Christ won the contest and Lucifer and his minions were banished from my life. They still try to get back in sometimes, but thankfully that ain't that easy nowadays.
So I KNOW what is real, and if you are still under the impression that YOU control your own life, I pity you.
Can you understand that?
Here we go folks! You KNOW what is real? Your decision to turn around a pretty disgusting life had to be palmed of on to an invisible entity?
Here you are, a complete debaucher and god takes the time to see you right.
While he was tendering to your needs thousands of beautiful innocent children die. Apparently your god is more concerned with using his magic on you than halting the horrors of the world.
Or can he just fix people like you and screw the kids?
god the a***hole!
Your story attempts to paint a picture of how God saved you. He did nothing of the sort. I suggest you are confusing God for willpower. Willpower is what saved you. Willpower turned your life around, not God. Often, in our bleakest moments we turn to an outside influence for help. In many cases that help is God. There is no logic to these actions, just that 'faith' people feel they don't have the tools within them to change their lives. Creating and believing in an external supernatural force that can guide you when times are hard, brings with it a comfort you feel you cannot get elsewhere.
So, did the church and Gods power really help you? Most unlikely. Your chief rescuer was yourself when you recognised you needed to change your life. Secondly, believing in a supernatural power - Gods power - enabled you to generate a positive placebo response which further enhanced your already motivated willpower.
So many confuse Gods intervention with willpower. God saved me! Horsehit! You saved yourself. God rescued me! Bollocks! You rescued yourself. God did this, God did that... when will you people realise God did f@ck all and the power for change came from within you.
Really typical Christian arrogance here. Why do you assume non-believers are missing something? We can look to rules of fair play and common sense and understand that being good to others brings good back to us. Many non-believers are good people and seek to make the world a better place. And as we know, many believers are pretty terrible people. So what's your theory that submitting to a higher power gives the average person a better life? Your own life is merely an anecdote.
you are driving down a dirt road enjoying the scenery.you come upon a lovely old covered bridge and cross it without even slowing down.you have shown faith in he who built it,that it was properly built,you just gambled your life on someone you never new,that is faith.you purchase an automobile on the PERCIEVED reasoning of a car sales rep.the car is a lemon,misplaced faith.faith is an integral part of every day life,without it we would spend our days in verification of everything around us.faith and logic are like water and oil,they cannot become one even at there basic level(you can stir your ass off but they still wont fuse lol).the existence of logic in fact everything has an arbitrary agreed upon foundation anyway.reality is subjective because of individual perception.all things are the way they are because the majority agrees to it.how would you reply to (with all due respect)i have faith that logic is based upon an error of agreement by the majority.even facts change.in 1830 or there about an archaeologist discovered an 18 foot human skeleton thereby proving the existence of a giant race"those were the days when giants roamed the earth".for 50 years it was accepted by the world as fact(especially those Logical scientists)until one of there own noticed that the worn areas where the bones would have joined were not correctly aligned.when they were properly assembled according to wear areas on each bone it turned out to be an elephant that had fallen backwards into a pit splaying it out to appear as though it were human,this falsified that Fact.so i ask this question.do you have Faith in your logic?why do you attack religious faith(by the way i am anti religion also but for other reasons)when it cannot be denied that faith is necessary.to be fair you must measure and deny all faith in all things which would greatly complicate our lives.faith is faith and logic is logic and never the twain shall meet....peace...
I don't mean to be mean or dismiss your belief, but there is not logic in what you said.
GOOD or BAD comes from your own individual moral aptitude to judge what is right and what is wrong.
What is right? Comes from honesty in thoughts and actions.
What is wrong? Comes from dishonesty in thoughts and actions.
Things which are either right or wrong comes from your own individual conscience.
You DO NOT need a "higher" or external "authority" to tell you what is right or wrong, because you yourself can figure it out.
If you are unable to decide for yourself what is right or wrong? Then you seek guidance from other sources besides your own conscience.
This is detrimental to your life, because you are not obeying your own natural guidance system for what is right or wrong.
And, when you do that....you oppress your understanding of life and begin to think, that you can not guide your own life, when in fact you can- if you only listen to your conscience.
It is not evil to think for yourself or to guide your own life through honest conscious thought and honest conscience actions.
It is only evil to think that you can not do it by yourself.
Jeffery Dahmers conscience told him to kill and eat 17 men.What`s yours telling you?
How nice of you to make my point for me. He killed because he refused to listen to his conscience. Not because his conscience told him to.
He knew what he was doing was wrong. If he didn't, then he gets classified as a schizophrenic.
Every person can figure out what is right and what is wrong, but refusing to listen to one's own conscience is a mental retardation gone seriously awry.
Hitler believed with all his heart that what he did was right.
How does your psycho babble theory work with that?
I think that the existence of God is everywhere. What is impossible to do is to put a clear definition on him/her/it ???
with no definition there can be no system set up to proof/disproof his existence. I say that this is my thoughts;that statement also in impossible to PROOVE
If you have to argue about it - you're on the wrong track, I reckon!. Many rivers make their way to the sea - doesn't matter which river you're on - goes to the same place.
That may actually be the case?
However, what kind of condition will you be when you meet up with others?
Will you be a moral individual?
Will you preserve life?
Will you be value to humankind?
These are for you to decide by using your very own human consciousness/awareness and conscience. You know what you feel and think? Therefore you are GOD of your own life.
Take control, remain true to yourself, know thy ownself, become one with yourself, live a moral life, preserve other life and understand the true value of humankind- Life is eternal.
No religion required!
A much better argument could be had for why you believe in God and why you need God in your life. What does he give you?
If you believe in God then clearly you have no need to prove his existence, therefore if he exists, what is about him existing that gives value to your life?
That's the thing maximus591-
Religion, centuries ago was realized to be "mysticism".
A Human Conscious individual can see for themselves that "GOD" is an illusion.
Why people believe in "god" is because they don't believe in themselves or their own ability to control their own life, therefore they MUST BE guided by an outside source.
Why people need GOD in their life? Again, because they refuse to take full control of their life and refuse to believe their life is part of higher purpose.
They can't rationalize a higher purpose for their own life than a higher power.
If you believe in GOD then clearly you have no need to prove his existence. You cannot believe in something that isn't real. A thought isn't necessarily belief. A belief, if it is not based on reality, it becomes a hazard to your own existence.
Again, just because your belief says something is real, doesn't make part of reality.
Reality is based on what can be proven, absolutes and basic facts.
Anything non-existent can not control Humankind, because our consciousness and conscience, can control their own thoughts and actions, therefore they are self-responsible.
It's for you to decide on "HOW" self-responsible you're going to be.
IF you really believe "GOD" exists, then what you receive in value is nothing, because what your belief is based on something that's not real.
Again, religious beliefs of a Higher Power, known as GOD, is based on facts NOT in evidence.
Religion makes claims which contradict true nature of life.
Solid rock Faith.
You got it, you believe,
you ain't... you ain't.
And there's no possible discussion
between dialectics and rethorics.
True knowledge and Wisdom is the only truth.
Those who don't have it, waste their lives trying to figure where to get it.
Those who have it, refuse to share with others.
Belief: is based on human consciousness and conscience working together.
Faith: is based on believing something that is not true or real.
To let humankind believe that they must answer to a higher power is absurd and only gets corruption, slavery, indoctrination, separation and a divided world.
Religion centuries ago was understood and proven to be FALSE, and was classified by all rational thinking individual, who happen to have human consciousness and a conscience to realize, mysticism was nothing but an illusion.
Religion is mysticism.
Therefore, leaves one conclusion- There is NO god.
Why do you refuse to answer?
Because, your afraid of life?
Or are you afraid of yourself?
What makes you think that it is stupid to guide oneself?
And, don't you guide your own life already by the thoughts that you form and the actions you do?
When you go to the store for milk? Is it god's will that you go get milk?
Please help me to understand your maddening methodology for living?
St. Anselm has about the best proof there is for God's existence.
If there was any "proof" for the invisible super being's existence, we would not even be having this "debate."
You obviously underestimate people's uncanny ability to dispute evidence.
Not really. The only people I see disputing evidence have the word of an invisible super being in their head.
The rest of us go with proven evidence. As opposed to the "proof" that St Anselm offers.
If i worship the sun as my god.And the sun is real.Them my god is real.Gods are not always invisible men.Many cultures worshiped real things as gods. So do i win?
What were you suppose to win?lol
Worshipping the 'Sun', because it exists is not a logical reason to form a basis for worship.
When you worship something you seek guidance and understanding, and in exchange for your loyalty.(get something in return)
Same as religion- People give up their life, to serve a "GOD" they worship, in return they seek wisdom, understanding and expect "GOD" to follow through on Eternal Life, after they die.
There can be no winner until one side concedes territory to the other. But that won't happen anytime soon.
However, I do see a potential for hope. The faith heads need to become more transparent about what 'having faith' and 'believing in god' means for them. Once you understand the meanings, those meanings can then be gradually undermined using clever psychological strategies and replaced by a more open and enlightened way of being based around knowledge and truth.
You claim to be objective then tell me how god helps your life. Is this the same god who is allowing the starvation and murder of children?
If you were objective this would be a nonsense to you as it is to me!
You weren't talking to me were you?
You just threw out that statement, without attaching it to someone?
So, since it was posted after mine, I would think that you were talking to me.
See what I mean?
I suspect Earnestshub was aiming the question at me, so I will answer it.
Earnestshub it's not God who is "allowing the starvation and murder of children?" - it's you and the rest of humanity who ignore God.
Every word you speak or write is either an endorsement of God and a prayer asking God for His Grace to reign in this world, OR its an empowerment to Lucifer (who rules this world as his dominion, until God calls time)who then sets about his favourite game: "Devouring those he may as he goes about in his kingdom".
All humanity is born into Lucifer's kingdom, and by default belongs to Lucifer to do as he wishes with. People like yourself are no threat to Lucifer, he owns you, you are his for eternity, or at least until you revoke your citizenship of the world and apply to become a citizen of God's Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven, so he (Lucifer) may even choose to prosper you, to keep you docile and compliant.
So IF you want God to intervene to stop "the starvation and murder of children" start speaking to God rather than Lucifer and join the (approximate) 3% of people who care enough to live by Gods word in Christ, rather than the 97% who live doing it 'my way' and empowering Lucifer, who is a murderer, deceiver, liar and thief.
The world really is full of fools isn't it!
God helps you why again?
He doesn't help the others because some entity he created and turned loose is responsible for all the carnage?
Your god is a psychopathic entity and I am so pleased that it does not exist.
Your illusion has now gone too far.
You think that "I" as an individual are CONTROLLED by something or some mystical entity?
This is without knowing me as a person, or who I have turned out to be as man of Earth.
Your overwhelming sense of righteousness is appalling, to say the least.
Your LACK of knowledge and of the WORDS you read through scripture is your undoing.
The Eternal Life you seek, you will not find, because you never followed "Jesus Christ's" teachings.
And, if you say that you do follow Jesus' teachings- then I call you a liar.
And, I call you a liar, because your lack of knowledge or understanding of Jesus' teachings.
You are not better than the religious/spiritual leaders of past, present and future....you all perpetuate a hoax.
Hmmmm... touched a raw nerve did we, well never mind, we will see who is right in due time, and meanwhile I rebuke and revoke the curses you utter above and forgive you in your anger, asking God to Bless you with the revelation of His Grace and Mercy.
Guys, this is fun, but I must away to sleep now, maybe we can play some more tomorrow?
Humanity lets bad things happen to humanity.
According to your beliefs, who created this world ? God ,isn't it ?
So God is responsible for everything down here, including his utmost creation : Man
Do i have to write long paragraphs as all of you had been doing here, or is this short statement enough ?
Correct, God created everything, but He also decided to give man (that's you and me) free will, and God respects your free will, so if you choose to turn the place into a hell hole, so be it.
God only wants to spend eternity with those who have chosen to be with Him.
That seems reasonable, especially as He gave you a lifetime to choose.
He stopped giving free will, the moment he put the tree of wisdom in front of Adam and Eve., As he knew they were to disobey. So where is the free will ? God was a sadist !
Wrong, actually Lucifer drew their attention to THAT tree, God told them NOT to eat from it, Lucifer deceived them into disobeying God, hey presto all humanity gets to have free will and every individual from that point on needs to CHOOSE who they will SERVE.
Like I said, gotta get my beauty sleep now, more tomorrow?
More fairy tales! Oh well !! Go to your beauty sleep. take care not to get too preety. Maybe Lucifer would be tempted to visit you !
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So now I'm a filthy no-good
Well, if your Lord is how you described him, I'd rather he doesn't notice me !
Romans 14:10-12 (King James Version)
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Here is a nice one to go to sleep on.
Your psychotic gods little killing spree!
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
Sick little god!
I'd take note if I were you, although you are quoting the OT and the NT is considerably more gentle!
Mind you, Revelation gets a bit heavy for those who will still be here resisting Him!
Resisting him? Him being the psychotic man-made entity in the bible? Not likely!
You need to deal with all of the bible, not just the bits that you like.
The bible is the repeat of hundreds of other stories about the boogyman who is gonna kill all your grain crop if you don't bow down to it.
What a lot of childish nonsense it is. You should read all of it. I have.
What many don't realize?
All religious text in any bible is man's account for history.
Therefore- all bibles, quorans or assorted related text is exactly that HISTORY BOOK!
Unfortunately, not a single one of them were translated properly or even for that fact, put into the right text to begin with.
The bibles also a 'future history'book, written by over 60 men who mostly had no knowledge of each other, lived at different periods of time, yet managed to write a book that was subsequently able to be a cohesive package, which made nearly 700 predictions all of which have to date been 100% fulfilled, with the exception of about 38 that are still outstanding as they refer to the last days of this sick world of humanity.
Yeah, I've read all of it, I was blessed with having a couple of years study time available to me when I came to faith... and remember I started out trying to disprove the bible and find the 'loopholes' - 16 years later I still ain't found them.
The bible IS just a history book to people who have no understanding, but IF you ask God to allow you to understand the bible, it's a life plan par excellence!
If you guys are soooo very sure that God does not exist, why are you soooo very determined to argue the point ad infinitum?
Methinks thou protesteth too much!
Free will isn't something that can be given to humans.
Free will is what we evolve to.
Example: a baby when it is in the womb, it is reactionary. Guided by the actions of the mother carrying the child.
When that child is born, again the child is guided by nature and human parents. Baby in nature are stupid, blind to knowledge and have no understanding of who they are as a person.
That means they really don't know or comprehend their own existence.
Once, a family- names the child. Only then do the child become aware of who he/she is. Yet, still guided by parents, somewhat by nature.
It isn't until you are older, usually around 5 or 6, does a child self-realize that they can do whatever they want, which is free will thought.
Free will is evolves into being. It doesn't simply exist.
Life simply exists.
Disagree, my first boy was born when I was in the world big time, he exercised his free will the minute he decided to do something other than what I wanted him to do, we learnt to live with each other and eventually he started to make the right choices.
My second child was born when both of us were in the Kingdom of God, she was full of spirit from day one, however she still exercised her OWN free will as soon as she wanted to 'do her own thing' in preference to our own thing.
Nobody needs to teach a child how to be rebellious and exercise their free will
Boy are you confused about understanding life.
Did your babies understand what they were doing?
That's not free will!
That's reactionary living.
Babies do have a consciousness, but it's undeveloped.
Until you expand your understanding of "Consciousness", you have no standing.
You cannot KNOW whether babies know what they are doing, and we are not discussing psycho babble, we are discussing God.
i read an interesting story one time by Ray Bradbury. it was called "The Small Assassin", in which a baby was born with highly developed physical abilities and the mental capacity to plot evil things. because it was an infant, it had no conscience, so it set out to kill his mother by crying all night, hoping to wear down her nerves and deprive her of sleep. he finally did it by crawling out of his crib and leaving a baby toy strategically placed on the stairs, so she tripped on ti and broke her neck. he was a regular little Chucky all right
So god decided to make a known failed experiment and then blame it when things went wrong. Makes sense.
Oh and just in case he makes another major psycho and leaves him here to run his planet. Sounds logical.
Indoctrination causes hallucinations!
...and don't get so angsty, it's bad for your blood pressures and neither of you can afford to meet with God just now.
Nite nite! )
The theory of evolution does not and cannot support the statement “there is no god”. Neither can it support the statement “there is a god. It cannot address anything outside of nature. That’s what makes it so useful in accurately modelling the natural world. In claiming that a scientific theory proves or disproves god, you are effectively claiming that the theory is unscientific.
The scientific facts of evolution are objective verifiable observations, nothing more, nothing less. Darwin’s theory of evolution is an explanation of those verifiable facts and is widely accepted as accurate. There have been others which have been discredited, e.g. Transmutationism and Orthogenesis. I won't mention ID because that isn't a scientific theory.
Evolutionary facts are the “what” and evolutionary theory is the “how”. The matter of “why” is open to debate. If a supreme being forms part of that debate, then the question cannot be addressed by scientific means, unless you change the definition of the word scientific.
In the words of Richard Dawkins: “science has no way to disprove the existence of a supreme being” (Richard Dawkins, The Devil’s Chaplain, p149)
I’d add that neither can it prove the existence of a supreme being.
You are one person who actually understands evolution. I do not believe in it, but I give credit where credit is due.
Evolution does prove that the christian god does not and can not exist. A vague "supreme being" who takes no interest in and does not in any way effect the universe? OK - not disproven. But the christian god who "created us in his image"? nope - cannot exist.
Sorry your ridiculous beliefs have been proven false.
Too bad.. Now you will have yo behave well because you want to.
Must be hell for you.
No, what you believe might prove that, but the THEORY of evolution does not. Darwin's THEORY of evolution does not prove or disprove that at all. I can't help what kind of ideas you conjure up in your head, but I do know that they were not Darwin's. Like I said, he is one person who understands the THEORY of evolution, however; you are not. At least you credit Darwin, so what you do is not complete plagiarism.
For the love of sanity! The bible doesn't even prove the christian god exist.
I really think that anyone who says that this god exist because the bible says so is a friggin' moron. I come in here looking for some food for thought and all there ever is is retarded debates about creation and evolution.
Who the F! cares. The Bible doesn't tell you shite about how life was really "created" all it tells you is the nature of mans arrogance, ignorance, habitual stupidity, war, death, murder, why you are so stupid and how to tell the difference between cow dung and bull shit.
There is NO FLYING FUC'IN GOD WHO SITS ON A THROWN WHO SPRINKLES MAGICAL DUST ON THINGS AND THEN IT DIES OR GROWS AND THERE IS NO GOD THAT COMMANDS PEOPLE TO KILL OR LOVE OR ANY OF THE ABOVE.
ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS TYPE OF BIBLICAL BULLSHIT SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT THE SHED AND BEATEN UNTIL YOU NON EXISTENT GOD ANSWERS YOUR PRAYERS. AND WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT GOD DOES NOT ANSWER YOUR PRAYERS AND I DECIDE TO STOP BEATING YOU OUT OF PITTY I EXPECT THAT YOU WILL THANK ME LIKE THE EVER DAMNING PEOPLE HATING, MURDERING GOD THAT YOU WORSHIP WHO LETS LITTLE CHILDEN BE RAPED, MURDERED, BLOWN UP, LEFT IN THE STREETS.. THE SAME FUC'N GOD THAT COULD GIVE A SHITE LESS ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS.
THERE IS NO GOD OF CREATION!
Sorry for yelling.
Kiss your mother with that mouth?
Well, obviously you care. Additionally, the BIBLE does prove that GOD exists, but you just don't believe in it. Furthermore, the BIBLE does specify how life was created, and you don't believe that either. You probably also don't know much about left handed Amino Acids either. But who needs to know about those in order to understand how we were created? Lastly, I will pray for you. Oh, and I don't think CAPS is yelling, I can read either upper or lower case.
Well stated. The Bible is a pile and so are religions based on it.
If your business is trash compacting, take it elsewhere. I assume that is your profession; only an expert could have crammed so much garbage in such a small space....
Applying scientific method to that claim only makes sense if the claim is asserted as literal and scientific fact, i.e. an objective, verifiable observation. If a Christian asserts the claim as such, then the above view is correct, and I share that view.
If a Christian asserts the claim as non-literal and a matter of faith, then by definition it is a belief which is not based on material evidence. Therefore it isn't and can't be considered a scientific fact. It is unscientific. Unsurprisingly an unscientific claim is outside the scope of science.
You are free to dispute the truth of the claim. You are free to criticise the unscientific nature of the claim. You are free to question the epistemological status of belief without evidence. But the claim, as presented, remains beyond the scope of science.
That's not to say the claim is true or untrue. It just cannot be proven or disproven by scientific method, unless you change the definition of proven, unproven or scientific method.
There is no sound reason to believe the bible was written by other than the men who wrote it, who were sexist, racist, cruel and deceitful.
The words used in the bible and quoran to frighten the hell out of the sheep are the words of idiots, who today would be locked away safely so that they could not do harm.
Even if the bible was meant to be read as myth, it describes the worst of the human condition as did the Greek gods.
As for this book or the quoran as the basis for religions, they are both hateful with cruel words that could only have been written by hateful cruel men to control the great unwashed of the time.
No godly appearance, no proof of a god, just a lot of neurotic old world text.
Yep, I think you protest too much.... if you TRULY have a good conscience about there being no God - why don't you just stop talking about Him? - You spend a whole lot of time thinking about something you say does not exist, why not just enjoy your life, because according to you this is the ONLY life you have, why waste it trying to preach to the converted?
What is wrong with wanting to protect future generations from hateful religionist claptrap?
I see you have taken to threatening people now.
With the power invested in you by god apparently. And no doubt you get a kick out of using that threat on innocent children. I too wish to put a stop to people like you threatening children because it is evil and wrong.
That OK with you? - seeing as you feel the need to spend so much time trying to persuade people your hateful pathetic invisible god will punish them after they die,?
There is a word for people like you.
Listen Evo, IF God did not exist then you guys would not need to peddle Lucifer's lies, OK I understand that you don't realise that you are all dupes for the master liar, deceiver and murderer of the world, however that's how good Lucifer is at deception:
1. Persuade the world you (Lucifer)do not exist.
2. Get those who reject God to try and persuade the world that God does not exist.
Fortunately Lucifer (and all that he owns) will lose their rebellion.
Now to my threatening people and young children... all I do is quote scripture, so it's not ME doing anything to threaten you, it's the word of God, and I guess that would make you unnerved, unless you KNEW God did not exist, because then you would have nothing to fear, would you?
You "wish to put a stop to people like you threatening children because it is evil and wrong." because I am (according to you)... "trying to persuade people OUR hateful pathetic invisible god will punish them after they die"
Now where is your logic gone to?
How can something be 'evil and wrong' if there is no God to declare what is 'just and merciful'?
In your world there are NO arbiters to rule what is right or wrong, for if we have no God to JUDGE us, where are our restraints?
Do I have to rely upon you 'atheists' being nice benevolent folk?
You (must) live in a subjective world, or make yourself a god by IMPOSING your values on anyone else.
If I wanted to impose MY VALUES on the world, I would be wrong, however all I do is point out what God has stated about how we should behave, and what happens if we reject Him.
That's not threatening children that "our hateful pathetic invisible god will punish them after they die" - That's making them aware that despite the fact that Lucifer is peddling lies about there being NO GOD and therefore NO JUDGEMENT that the evidence also points to there being a just and merciful God who wants ALL to be saved, but that sons of Lucifer are either consciously or unwittingly preaching a Godless world that may deceive them into rebellion against God, which MUST mean separation from God.
Do not worry, you don't want to know God, have no fear, God has (at your request) arranged for you to spend eternity separated from Him.... now just imagine a world where there is no God or Holy Spirit to RESTRAIN a sinful, hating, rebellious humanity... you can find out what it's like by visiting those areas of the world where God has been rejected...
Whew, that must be hell to consider!
I am no longer 8 years old sweetie pie, so your ridiculous threats are not going to worry me.
Big man huh?
Jeebus dun b proud a ya.
And think your self lucky that you were not one of the ones filling my head with these types of threats when I was 8 years old.
OK Evo, you can't answer my response to you, so you resort to playground tactics.... hmmmm... maybe you are 8 years old emotionally? or maybe you still need to evolve mite more.
Either keep on subject and answer my points, or retire from the field.
I am on topic, sweetheart. Your ridiculous threats mean nothing to me. Sorry your god is so pathetic he needs people like you.
Now kindly retire from the field yourself.
Hi Evo... just looked you up:
"whilst reading up on Marx, Hitler, Lenin and all the other great evolutionists "
You ARE joking I hope, you just named two of the most notorious mass murders in history, and you offer THAT as evidence that the THEORY of evolution is valid in ANY capacity....reaally....
Allow me to introduce you to a new word.
Probably not in the bible so I doubt you will have heard of it before.
Shucks, does that mean you were lying about Elvis also!
Did I miss something? Hitler was a notorious Christian.
Yeah, you missed the part about how he was so Christian, he forced churches underground, closed seminaries, and went after members of the very Church in which he was raised with almost as much zeal as he went after the Jews. He may have been a notorious "Christian," but was most certainly no good Christian.
God has the best argument for His own existence. I would rather Him argue his own existence. Enough from me. Goodbye.
I think he can squeeze you in sometime between now and eternity, but you better make the appointment.
Are you interviewing Him for a job? Sounds like you mean business. I read His resume and it says He's creative. For some reason there's only a 6 day work history, and He's been self employed. I'm not sure that He'll be a good fit. He may be under qualified for you.
OK, without the suit. I have to see the guy that's all!
You will, believe me you will, personally I hope you don't make this appointment, because your CV is severely inadequate to get employed by Him at this point in time.
But if you do meet Him, GOOD LUCK - You'll need it!
Yessss. Threats - I find they work best.
You will meet God and you will wish you has listened to this one. Wonderful logic and persuasiveness.
Listen to aquasilver. He knows and he knows you will wish you had listened to him.
Just pointing out the obvious to me, maybe not to him, definitely to you as you pin a satanic sign to your profile... you know what awaits you, maybe this 'dude' does not!
Ironically your parting jibe was actually accurate!
You have no idea...................................
The best proof of God existing would be the fact that Abraham curcumsized himself with a rock. There is no way anyone would have thought to do that on their own accord, and then make everyone around him do it too.
Who has the best argument about God's existence?
Before you can argue about "God's" existence.
It might be helpful if you to provide evidence that he exists, first and foremost.
Just because an individual or group of individuals "belief" or have "faith" in an all powerful deity....DOES NOT make it real.
To argue: you are required to rationalize your side of the arguement and have supported evidence to support your claim.
If you want to refer to passage of the "books" you possess.
You have obviously mistaken man-made written text, as FACT, which is based on assumptions, conjecture and NO support. Hence, completely irrational.
Therefore, any argument from your side- isn't worth getting into, because you are irrational, brain-washed, controlled or just plain "stupid".
Human nature of man and woman, is to go by their 5 senses to make rational thoughts a reality- "GOD" can not be associated with or realized by any of your 5 senses you were BORN with.
And, if you are willing to go against all 5 senses of your own existence, to believe unsupported assumptions or conjecture without having real based facts- there is no reason to believe you could have a rational discussion about anything.
Nevermind, an argument about a supposed "god".
So, that leaves you to have no standing for arguing.
God was most likely the name given by a man to himself who first realized his own existence.
Did a first man of sentience exist. I have no proof but it is entirely logical and possible.
Since he/she was the first to in self realization, it was also possible that he/she really didn't know how he came to be and probably didn't understand his parents were his parents or even understand the process of child birth.
The most high logically refers to the Heavens ie Space, clouds, power, control over the crops, seas, weather etc. Seems just as powerful today as it would have then too.
I think the better question is what happened to this person that made him self aware and what spawned his/her cognition?
Did he get bonked in the head with a club? Was he looking in a body of water and try to talk to himself? I could only imagine that the same development happens in babies. The difference is that we are taught. He would have been self taught.
I would agree that there had to be someone who came to a self-realization, just as "Jesus Christ" did.
Was Jesus Christ that person? Who knows.
Did Jesus Christ become self-aware on his own or did he have help? Again, who knows.
But, as the topic states....argument about "god's" existence, can not be made or justified, rationally or logically.
Again, those of religion, refuse to step back away from their internal mechanisms of defense and rationalize their own existence.
Some see "Jesus Christ's" messages was fact. Where they get this idea from is ludicris, to say the least.
People digging up the past, to figure out where they are going, will not find the answers they are looking for, because they are unable to fight against their own belief.
And, another thing- the REAL truth lies in the hands of those who perpetuate the hoax known as "religion", and are too heavily committed, that even if they wanted to-----
The release would be destructive and create huge amounts of chaos, because those who were followers, would now have to rationalize their own existence.
And, the even bigger problem is that some of those followers are too ignorant to understand life or to come up with a purpose for their life on their own.
That makes for a sad society.
I don't think you can prove the existence or non-existence of God based on logic. Either the Universe was always here for some unexplained reason, or God created it. How can you logically talk about that? It's just a given that we do not know.
I think you can argue whether God is involved on Earth, however, and the logic points to absolutely not. We have evolution, we have free will, all events are caused by natural causes, God does not intervene anywhere. You can just see it in the world. If God exists, he probably started everything off, but no longer involves himself in our world.
He who thinks he thought up existence step forth...we need to talk!
REAL logic will tell you that you can't prove God's existence, but you also can't disprove it. If there is a God then he/she would be so extravagant that no human, or religion for that matter could explain who he is or what he has done. I think that God could actually be in people, and the more GOOD someone does the more spiritually connected they will become with themselves or GOD. But people can also go the EVIL way in life by making EVIL choices, which will also make them more spiritual with themselves or the DEVIL. You see how if you take away one letter from GOOD it makes GOD, and if you add one letter to EVIL it makes DEVIL. That's some ironic food for thought. Or is it ironic? People's imagination of things seems so high at times that it's like their dreaming. They think the wrong is right, and the right is wrong.
Every belief system has something to learn from . . . and every belief system also has its departures into unbearable lunacy.
Existence itself does prove a higher power…. period. There absolutely is no better proof of a supreme being than that. We construct things from what is already available and pro-create but created nothing ourselves. Other living things did not create things or their species, either. Even someone who believes that evolutionary process is responsible I cannot imagine them not seeing a design, meaning and purpose behind all of it.
Simply because we cannot explain how God could not have a beginning (eternal) does not take away from the fact we exist and all other things. If something exists now, something HAD TO have always existed and it certainly wasn’t us.
Darwin did recognize a higher-power and he was the main originator of evolutionary theory. Darwin WAS NOT an atheist - he was a Theist (belief in at least one deity) and an Agnostic (recognition in a supreme being yet to be identified to him).
For some it is supposed that evolutionary theory somehow makes it easier to believe things simply first appeared with a “big-bang” type occurrence out in space with the matter required to cause, that happening suddenly “appearing on the horizon” simply because you apply a huge expanse of time to it. Following that event that began life, that has continued for 6-billion years of perfect order (as it is proposed)… this evolutionary process has been continuing on the planet with millions of incredible and intricately designed living things having “sprung-forth” from it, including the proper atmosphere, environment and food sources, sun-distance, gravity, etc…………………..
Hyper-philosophy is resorted-to in these forums by those who oppose others expressing what they believe to be proof-of-God. They scrutinize obvious meanings to death so that they loose their purposeful meaning to them and they attempt to pass that scattered-thinking onto others.
They also resort to the attacks on these forums despite it being for “Religion & Belief” purposes, with ultra-sarcastic statements, name-calling and the “contest of wits”. What an incredible waste of opportunity for intelligent discussion! That’s what usually happens with un-moderated forums however, it brings the bizarre attitudes out of the woodwork.
Not only that but one particular member has multiple memberships here at HubPages and is posing as many different “personalities”. I at first thought they had only a few but I’m finding out it is many more than that (I’m not the only one who knows about this). They are doing this to make it appear there is a larger support group for attack-posts than there actually is and so that they can take it to even higher levels of offensiveness. Those of you who “inadvertently” pointed this individual out, can no longer go in and edit those posts and this guy is referred-to in many of them… by name. He also has a following of underlings who see him as their “hero”.
I only add this as an example of how desperate some of the attack-posters are in displaying their absolute hatred toward those who believe in God and toward God himself, whom they don’t believe in. All of this and yet they expect their opinions to be taken seriously or to be respected.
Lastly; children are dying due to “man’s dominion” in this world and not because God is “letting it happen” (as someone stated earlier). If you base your hatred of God on that, it is because you’ve never looked into the fact that man has complete dominion and authority given to him in this world. This is also why he is set-apart as “human” from the animal kingdom. I know that doesn’t set-well with those who want to see their selves as evolved animals but its true none-the-less.
Now, let the attack-responses begin!!
You don't know what you are talking about. It's theist like you (no offense because I like you nonetheless) that make ignorance dominate our kids. You tell them inaccurate things about evolution and dumb up their minds with religious rhetoric, scramble philosophies, and synthesis their understanding of the scientific process that they become too confused to understand.
Humans may be at the top of the food chain but that doesn't mean we are not animals. We eat like any other animal, some kill just like any other animal. We all sleep, work, do whatever it is we have to do to survive and yet you cannot see that just because we look different or "think" differently that we are still animals.
It should be noted that humans if any, should be regarded as the most savage creatures or animals on Earth because it is only the human animal that kills for emotional purposes which does set us apart from animals but not for the better.
Hello Jim. Nice to talk to you. You are making a teleological argument for the existence of god, i.e. the argument that perceived purpose and design in natural objects proves god exists.
The argument asserts that natural life is too ordered and complex to have occurred randomly, so must be designed. Therefore a designer who is external to nature must exist. That designer is god.
The first problem: the opening premise asserts that complex, ordered systems, objects and structures allows us to reasonably infer design external to nature. However, such objects and structures have been observed to form as a result of following certain natural processes. An example of such a structure is an allotrope of carbon, arranged in a face-centred cubic lattice (a diamond). Complexity, apparent order and non-randomness therefore does not allow us to reasonably infer design outside of nature. The first premise is therefore untrue, making the argument unsound.
The second problem: even if we accept the first premise as true, it doesn't follow that the inferred designer is the being referred to in christian theology as god. Someone could equally conclude from the premises, that the natural world is a matrix style computer simulation. The architect of that simulation would be the designer. That conclusion satisfies all the premises of the argument.
Because the conclusion does not necessarily follow on from the premises, i.e. the conclusion given doesn't have to be the conclusion, the argument is a non sequitur, making it also invalid, in the formal logic sense of the word.
You are of course free to suggest that nature itself, including the processes that make up nature, are part of a grand design. That's a different argument. But I hope you can see the difference between that and suggesting that the existence of god can be inferred from natural objects themselves. The latter being a very weak argument indeed.
I can handle that type of reply Sandra. It was straightfoward and passionately written but didn't come across as an attack.
Thanks for a good example of a powerfully disagreeing but respectfully written debate-post.
Now if you can get some of the others to do that we might actually keep intelligent discussion going.
Also: I've never been against teaching evolutionary theory, I'm against not teaching both options, to include creationism.
Do we want people to make individual choices or don't we? That's part of my point.
Well in that case - allow me to respectfully disagree.
Evolution is a proven fact with millions of pieces of evidence.
Creation is a fairy tale written to frighten people into doing as the church tells them.
You seem to have forgotten this.
Evolution = proven scientific fact.
Creation = fairy tale.
Not really understanding why you would want a fairy tale taught to children as a scientific fact - or even a possibility - which it is not? Are you scared that they might not beleeb in jeebus?
I agree. Millions of pieces of evidence that has to pass scientific method before being accepted, as opposed to one very dodgy source that no person can agree about!
Wrong Evo, evolution is still just a theory that you guys have tried to dupe the world into thinking is a fact.
Now it is obvious that you guys will NEVER want to understand how believers think and speak, it's a pure waste of time because you have a closed mind.
So I dust my feet of you, and hope that you enjoy whatever is left of your life, because you surely are not making any plans for eternity.
Demonstrating a lack of understanding of evolution is not really helping to persuade me that you are qualified to have an opinion about eternity. What makes you think a complete ignorance of science is a persuasive philosophical argument? Not seeing the connection myself.
Help me out here. AM I getting this right?
Cannot understand science = qualified to spout religious nonsense.
I am a science graduate and then studied some advanced mathematics and physics as a Navigating Officer in the Merchant Navy. I gained enlightenment in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and have now become a poet- spreading god knowledge.
Science doesn't posses this knowledge.
Science and evolution are religions, you worship them and they control you, you cannot allow that anything that cannot be seen or touched or reproduced in the lab can be real.
Anything which interferes with YOUR concept of life MUST be denigrated.
You are a religious fundamentalist whether you like it or not, but you worship at the altars of science and evolution, so be it.
In effect you are spiritually dead already, because your religions cannot allow for spiritual existence, so you are spiritually dead as your religion requires you to be.
Your bodies simply waiting to catch up with your condition.
Believe it or not I've been where you stand, walked a mile in your shoe and all that guff...
That's the problem, you see the body of Christ has a multitude of reformed atheists, evolutionists and science worshippers, all of whom have been set free from their dogmas and live with a wider truth.
There are few who have gone the other way, and those who have are in the main those who never really had a relationship with God, mainly they were involved in Churchianity and got burnt by what they saw there.
Once anyone has received the Holy Spirit of God to guide and guard them, they don't need to look for answers in science and evolution.
Just like an abandoned child, once they know their parents and genealogy, they can get on with enjoying life.
Having a loving Father is a great thing for a person to have, especially when they were born a (spiritual)bastard.
I hope you find your 'dad' before it's too late for you to gain a spiritual life.
morning y all, i dont wanna dwell about the existence of God etc. but I disagree that science is a religion, science is a set of scientific body of knowledge which is composed of theories, (and what every new theory does is to debunk the latest one).
while religion is not scientific at all (purely metaphysical), it is purely based on faith. religion is created so that there is shared belief and hope to come up with moral laws out of it.
scientific laws and moral laws are of course different.
religion is also a cultural thing..
I live a spiritual life thanks.
Oh - u meen u got ta attak evolushun and say god is gonna get ya ter be spiritual?
No thank you daddy - I do not want to be loved the way you want to love me.
I know what that stands-for... Man-About-Religious-Magnificence = Marm.
Thanks for the compliment and keep trying!
And yes, the Bible is a big pile of wonderful blessing, since YOU brought it up!
I'm offline now to get some of that well-designed, energizing sleep!
Deductive arguments for the existence of God like the Moral or the Design Arguments can be offered. If the arguments are sound, then it's just a matter of debating whether or not the premises are more likely than their negation. In this sense, it doesn't matter whether the arguments are "faith based" (whatever that means) or not.
And yet another person blaming GOD for all the woe in the world.
Probably blames others for things as well, which is typical of the type.
And yet another person blaming GOD for all the woe in the world.
Probably blames others for things as well, which is typical of the type.
Kant - Moral argument
How do we have an inherent knowledge of what is right and wrong? No, not the knowledge our parents and teachers indoctrinate us. Watch a bunch of 2-3 year olds and they will get upset if their toy gets taken from them because they know that that action is wrong.
You continually make the same repetitive statements in response to people who don’t line up with your thinking. A lot of them are stated so ridiculously that very few people, including myself have replied directly to them. Yes they do reply to you in-general but the thoughts you bring up which are never done without sarcasm are so off-subject in most cases, they don’t usually merit a response.
In many cases you respond with the sarcastic toddler-sounding language (i.e. “evolushun” “jeebus”, “praise dee lawd”, etc…).(Maybe you're not being sarcastic and this really is your true level of mentality.) You and earnesthub, both continually resort to this same method of posting, all the while thinking it brings credence to your views when in reality, it causes readers looking into these forums to see you as the quacks or crackpots. I absolutely guarantee you that is the case, with exception of the God-hater cronies that team together and are emboldened by your type posting, to spout their own sarcastic trash that does in no way whatsoever bring more believability to your position.
What’s especially weird is that you’ll put reference to how ridiculous you feel religion is, when no one and I mean absolutely no one espoused to following a religion of any kind and that includes me. It is YOU, who have placed all faith beliefs in God into the “religious” category. (That must include Charles Dawin because he was a "Theistic Evolutionist" his own biography, authorized by his son, published very recently, states this indisputably.)
You also constantly, repeatedly, repetitively state that we who believe in God are anti-science. Again - a figment of your fragmented mind. I absolutely love science and was my favorite subject in high school and some of my elective courses with the undergraduate college I took and completed to receive a diploma in 1996 were science courses.
Here’s a challenge for you, so you can back up your deep knowledge of evolutionary theory:
Rather than spouting off about science being the greatest thing that exists and attempting to place everyone into a science-hating category when they’re not, give us some points about evolution that would be impressive, as far as aspects that have proven the theory indisputably. If you copy/paste if from a source, I’ll know because I’m going to copyscape it, if you actually do attempt a post with some meat to it, for evolutionary theory. Also if you “generalize” rather than giving a truly scientific response that means you actually DO NOT, have knowledge of the theory that you claim you do. Everyone here can easily tell the difference between a truly stated scientific observance and simply a generalizing about evolutionary theory.
Can you do it Evolution Guy? Here is your opportunity to actually do something for the theory, are you up to the challenge?
Earnesthub, if you happen by this thread again, I offer the same challenge to you because you, in essence are emulating Evolution Guy in your posts.
I may or may not be here to check-in on your reply very quickly because I have two contract sales jobs and this is one of my busiest days of travel but I will definitely be checking in to see what you have offered, by this late afternoon or evening.
Don’t sluff-off the challenge because all that is going to tell us is that you can’t back up your claimed position.
The onus is on you Jim.
Evolution is a proven scientific occurrence.
It is up to you to disprove it.
So, until such times as you can offer any sort of argument or evidence that does so, I will continue to laugh at you.
There is no challenge to "sluff off" here. You are the one who needs to offer something other than ridiculous statements such as, "Existence itself does prove a higher power…. period."
And until you do - I will continue to make fun of you.
Anyone here ever heard of limb lengthening? It's a process for the little people to make their limbs longer, in some cases you won't even be able to tell that they used to be little. It's a process of stretching your limbs, putting pressure on your bones and muscle to make them longer. Eventually your body will adapt to the stretching of your limbs by getting longer. It makes sense that we could've evolved from something else, because our body will respond to changes that we are put through. Also, if we all came from adam and eve, why are there hundreds of different races? If we came from one source we should all be one race. But of course people went separate ways and subjected to different climates. That's why there are darker people, because they were exposed to the sun for years and have tolerance over ultra violet rays because their bodies had to adapt to the heat therefore their skin has evolved. The fact is people adapt and change to what they are exposed to.
Believing in God is no greater an intellectual challenge than believing in the Laws of Physics. In many respects it is quite the same thing. Nobody has ever seen the Laws of Physics yet every atom in the universe is affected.
The Hebrew Bible is an ancient document. Much of contemporary scholarship seems to be about minimizing the wisdom of the Bible by assigning authorship to different sources and by emphasizing the contradictions among the several stories. But, so what? The Bible is an anthology of hundreds of different stories with maybe dozens or hundreds or authors. What does that prove other than stating the obvious - that different people will interpret the same events in different ways?
The objective observor should, perhaps, be asking where and how a Bronze Age person would come with the idea that whatever created the universe exists outside of space and time, and thus is beyond the experience of humans and cannot be explained by human language.
How did a Bronze Age person get the Big Bang right? Is there any creation myth more compelling than "Let there be light?"
People who think that evolution disproves the existence of God are not even asking the right questions. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says that evolution does not occur or even that it not the most likely life process. The Genesis sequence of events about the creation of the universe is spot on consistent with evolution and the expansion of the universe.
I cannot quote chapter and verse but there are sections of the Torah that speak of an expanding universe and of the day that the lights will go out and the universe degrade into smoke. Perhaps "smoke" is not proper term of art but what can you expect from somebody who lived 30 or more centuries ago?
I don't believe in any religion or any of the gods but I always tell christians that evolution doesn't disprove christianity and they can work together.
But every christian I've said that to think I"m crazy and say evolution is the work of the devil.
That's the problem with most religions...everyone can't even agree on it who believe in it.
If you think there is a god in whatever religion you believe, guess what, he's there.
You create your own afterlife and own belief system.
So - what is your understanding of evolution?
Is it random mutation and adaptation to change?
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