Why do people live together not married when they know the church say's its wrong? And what do you think married couples should do more of to stay together in times such as these?
The church isn't always right. Believe it or not, Christians have a much higher divorce rate than atheists and the study was done by a Christian group.
I'll agree, but would like to add.....people shouldn't be following anyone or listening to a 'higher' authority, except for their own.
I've been with my boyfriend for four years. The next step (but not yet) is moving in together, then engagement, then marriage. This is for us. I know every couple is different. Living together to me if important before marriage. I've talked to many people that said if they had lived with their spouses one week they would have never gotten married. As far as staying together, before getting married there has to be a great level of understanding and respect. Without that to begin with it makes difficult times nearly impossible.
Married, not married. Living together, not living together. Arranged, long-term past. Dated for a while, dated for a short time. Long distance, open relationship, whatever. Doesn't matter at all as long as the couple is happy.
If people don't believe what the church preaches, why would they worry what the church thinks?
-Some people believe it is better to get to know each other properly before committing to marriage.
-Some people think marriage is just a useless piece of paper, and people should be able to commit to each other without it.
- Some people think having a piece of paper makes you lazy, and it's actually better to stay together without it, because the only thing keeping you together is your personal commitment to each other.
Good point. THE CHURCH says its wrong. period. I don't believe i need to live by what the church says. when they are passing the offering plate around so i can pay my mortgage, then they'll get me to take notice. Otherwise its my choice and my business.
To address the seond issue. Also good question. I'm not the one to comment.....you might call me Liz Taylor LOL. just kidding. I wish i knew this answer too.
The church can always say as they please but when people are not taught to be aware of God speaking personally to them, these sort of things will be the result. And they indirectly should share the responsibility.
It's a freaking piece of paper. Why should it make a difference if you have it or not? If you are committed to the relationship and the person you are with is committed to the relationship, what difference is a piece of paper going to make?
No amount of being blessed by the church is going to make the marriage last if either are not totally committed to making a lasting commitment. Now, when you make the commitment in front of the church and god and all your friends and realtives, you are probably thinking this is going to last forever but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.
It is much easier to live with someone and see how things are going to go before the deal is written in ink. If it isn't meant to be, you can part much more easily than if it is a signed deal.
I know all the arguments for it about it being a sin and all that jazz but really don't we have bigger things in life to be worried about than people who shack up?
As to the married folk and the hard times, well you have to stay a team and that really goes for any relationship. You can't let the stresses of everyday life kick you in the gut so hard that you use the relationship as a means to bail on life.
I have to say I agree, I lived with my husband for 4 years before we got married and everything worked out perfect in the end. And remember it is not up to us to judge what other people do or how they live their lives, that resposibilty is way beyond our reach.
Lynn, I disagree. Something about having written, empirical, legal proof of a lifelong covenant relationship adds a dynamic to a relationship that isn't present when the commitment is just an oral agreement.
In other words, marriage may be a piece of paper, but it is one that can change a relationship. Statistically, couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce, likely because they think the relationship will continue as it did before marriage and they're ill prepared for the inevitable changes.
I must agree.
Divorce rate of "Christians" is about 50% I heard. But the way I see it, not all Christians are Christians as they claim. I seen family divorce because it was economically advantage for them, I mean government support. So government is part of divorce problem.
The word Christian should mean Christlike.
I am guilty of shacking up, and if The Church doesn't like it then they can keep it to themselves. I don't remember reading about the ceremony or paper God gave Adam and Eve or Abraham or Sarah.
That being said The next relationship I start will be different, why, because I want something different. Marriage is important to me, but not because of the bible but because of the respect it implies towards my wife, or future wife I should say.
Val I think that depends on how the living arrangement is carried out. If you start off committed to making a lasting relationship out of it and everything is a team effort and then you add in the legal piece of paper at a later time, you will know what to expect. On the other hand, if you start out keeping everything separate and not forging that bond and then try to add in the legal documentation, you are more than likely not going to be ready to really be a team.
The dynamic you are talking about isn't in the paper that certifies the marriage it is in the commitment to the other person. You don't have to have god, the church or anyone else present to make that kind of committed relationship to your other half, only each other. The willingness to work in tandum with each other and do this over the course of a lifetime is what creates the dynamic of the relationship.
Again, I disagree. There has historically and legally almost always been a huge difference between oral contracts and written covenants for a reason.
The written covenants are always more serious and harder to breach. There are easier ways out of oral agreements. As far as I'm concerned, between spouses, no real commitment exists unless they're willing to prove it by putting it into writing. If you're unwilling to do at the very least that, you're not committed enough.
Nope - eight years and counting, with no writing needed. No intention of marriage - it really is not necessary to us
Okay, but don't pretend you represent the majority of couples who live together before or without marriage.
I didn't - I was talking about myself and my partner only.
On the other hand, you seem to have little problem with judging the commitment level of every single unmarried couple on the planet.
Huh? Where did I do that?
Did I say every couple shacking up wasn't committed enough? Meanwhile, I could say you judge people as inferior who somehow need proof of their commitment in writing.
Yes, you made such an implication:
A sweeping generalization - you labelled any couple not willing to put it into writing as 'not committed' enough. The words are there for all to see.
Then you would be wrong. I think that you will find that I said no such thing.
How about judging marriage as "just" a piece of paper or unnecessary? How about objectifying marriage and your partner by comparing them to cars that need test driving?
Don't get me wrong. I don't take that as a judgment of my personal, individual choices. However, I find it degrading and an indication that people with such an attitude toward marriage kind of look down on something a lot of other people regard as sacred.
All that being said, being married myself, I don't think any amount of "test driving" can prepare a couple fully for the reality of a lifetime commitment and full membership in each other's families. If you're only living together, there's still an easier out. When you get married, really, genuinely married, the option to break up should be taken completely off the table. As long as splitting remains an option, the commitment is not complete.
I'm not making sweeping generalizations. I'm only saying that the statistics support my opinion that living together prior to marriage does not improve marriage, that people who live together before marriage are more likely to get divorced, and that couples who have lived together prior to or without marriage and stuck together for life are in the minority.
Getting married isn't like buying a car. It's more like skydiving for the first time, except the person with whom you make the first jump may not know any more than you do. Base jumping, bungee jumping, what have you, reading, learning all you can academically about it won't prepare you for the feeling of the two of you about to jump out a plane at 13,000 feet above the ground, both of you about to entrust your whole lives to each other.
At least that's how it felt before my husband and I uttered those vows to each other. Ten years later, I still can't think of a greater adventure.
Sure, but I think that you will find that I never compared marriage to buying a car or looked down upon married people. Personally, I have no problem with people getting married - that is entirely up to them, and I sincerely hope that it works out. By the same token, I hope that nobody judges me and my partner because we have no interest in it.
Personally, I could not give a shite about the statistics - they are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that I am very fortunate to be with my beautiful partner, and you and your husband are very happy together. That is the most important thing
I would have to agree with sufid. I've been with the same man for 5 years (and counting) now...longer than any of my 3 marriages lasted.
It just feels right this time, so I don't think that piece of paper is necessary!
Yes. We've been together six years and expect to spend the rest of our lives together. We don't need it in writing either.
I wouldn't commit to a car without test driving it. I certainly wouldn't commit to marriage without due diligence in confirming that the relationship was right. But Christians may argue that I have issues with faith...
I also disagree with objectifying marriage and spouses by comparing them to cars.
That being said, living together is a bit like a test drive. It won't reveal all the problems you'll face once you've committed- or in the case of the car, paid it off and the warranty's expired. There are still a lot of unknowns.
I'm in a long term committed relationship with my car, 12 1/2 yrs. THrough good times and bad. I put in my due diligence. Never missed a scheduled maintenence. Put in better gas than I had to. Survived two deer strikes. Kept the car the second time, even after the insurance co totalled her.
Ok, here is a hypothetical situation for you Val.
Man and woman meet. They like each other and date. Man finds out woman has been married before and has children. He forges a relationship with all as time passes and proposes marriage. Thus creating a new family for all. No living together has ensued here only dating and bonding over a time. The new family moves in together and everything is smooth sailing until one day the man comes home and sits the wife down. It was a mistake he says. He thought he could handle the instant family but he really hates her kids and now knows that he doesn't want any of his own. He then proceeds to move out that very night and they eventually finalize the divorce.
Could this have been prevented? Yes. With a little test drive like Rose Mary says over the course of a few months and he would have known. The kids would not have been crushed by another failed marriage and the mother well she would have been saved all the emotional stress this kind of situation creates.
Now, I know what most would say here is not to put the kids through that first but in this day and age when children are involved and so many are already living the broken home syndrome it is really hard not to take this risk before making a commitment. All around it gives everyone the chance to really get to know each other and if it will work or not.
As far as putting it in writing goes, you can do that even without the church or god or witnesses. If that is what you want, but the question here is why do people shack up when the church says it is wrong. There are many reasons for this and if asking a group of people of varying ages you would get as many different answers. It has nothing to do with the moral implications and more with personal choice.
I fully agree with the test drive theory if it is conducted in a manner in which you act as if this is a permanent relationship in for the long haul.
Any time you risk pregnacy your feelings become a distant secound. You must be prepared, once you're sexually active, to assume whats best for the potential child. Unless, of course, you would say oops and then kill a baby to prevent you from unnecessary complications. Just do the right thing and not what suits you.
Huh? No one mentioned pregnancy here the kids were from the previous marriage.
You do realize if you're intimate with someone, kids or no kids, you take a chance on becoming pregnant again.
It wasn't part of the hypothetical scenario that I proposed but yes I'm not stupid I do realize that.
Yup! My partner and I both live together doing the "test drive"
Does anyone date anymore? I have observed a peculiar trait in successful marriages, those involved dated several months before even thinking about sex, let alone moving in together. It used to be that couples would date for several years before marriage, today though we are so afraid of being alone that the time from meeting to marriage can be weeks, and yes even days, that's why divorce is so high. Impatience and shortcuts get you headaches and broken hearts.
That was well said. I agree.
I also think people spend way too much time taking other people's inventories and imposing their own private expectations on other people's relationships. Not to be overly blunt, but honestly if people would quit worrying about why OTHER people live together before marriage and focus on their own business the world would be a better place.
Relationships are very personal. Not everyone follows the Church. Half the time the Church doesn't even follow the Church.
This is an open forum or does only one opinion matter?
Why are you asking me? I gave my opinion, and it's never stopped you from offering yours. Didn't expect it would here either.
No thats fine Pam but it was in response to the,"I also think people....," comment. I was just offering my perspective to the conversation please, do what ever makes you happy and that goes for everyone! I've never said live like me or you're living wrong and I've never preached at you or anyone else. Please, whatever floats your boat have a good time!
I don't think it would be any better for the kids if the guy moved in, bonded, and became a "father figure" to them, and then left, having made zero commitment to their mother or them and therefore being held to no account for his impact on the family.
Also, a relationship with a car is not a permanent commitment. Permanent changes such as pregnancy and children or (heaven forbid) STD's however can result while couples only intend to "test drive" a relationship.
You are right Val it wouldn't have been any better but would prevent a long drawn out legal mess to undo the certificate.
I wasn't refering to the car as a permanent relationship but the test drive being run like it would be forever. Your choice would be to legally commit where mine would be to verbally commit. I have my reasons and beliefs on why I think this works better.
There are consequences to every side of the argument. While things can happen during the test drive so can things during the marriage. How about the husband who feels it is his right to get sex everynight and forces his wife to do this? The wife who verbally abuses her husband? And, it can get much worse from there. While living together you might not see all of what your potential spouse might be like, a 24/7 situation makes it hard to hide the inner demons and the husbands and wives that have suffered over the years and died might still be among us.
Scott is very right about the impatience derived from not being alone and Pam wow, you got that right when you said the church hardly ever follows the church.
Weird thing is though, I've seen relationships where the two parties concerned live together for a good while without any problems. Then they get married and split up within a very short time of tying the knot. Some of these splits may occur because the relationship has cracks in it that aren't apparent to the outside world. But I do also think there's something about marriage that changes people. Not everyone, to be sure. But it's almost as if when they get married, some people mentally "unlace their stays" so to speak, and show sides to themselves that they wouldn't have shown otherwise.
So, Sneak in thinking about the kids first in my scenario, lets say they just date and then get married and he decides after years and no further children that he wants out because he doesn't want to be responsible for the kids. The wife did the right thing, didn't move in with him before hand, introduced the kids into the situation etc all in the right ways. How is this better for the kids?
Well obviously it's going to be alonger process. You would need to do things together in different scenarios to see how he relates, look for problems. What kind of guy is he? Does he hang with boys or does he appear to be more domestic? Is he there only for sex? I would think that would be a huge process and all things considered it probably would be best to wait for marraige.
All that said, you have to make your own decisions. I wouldn't want to be you and I'm sure you feel likewise. There are good men out there and you have to be clear in your own mind what you want in a man. I feel that kids rule the day no matter what. Don't try to make a guy fit you're mold. Find the right guy. I'm saying this with the most respect possible, I'm not judging.
I earned the God And Country: God And Life Award. I am an ordained minister. I say this only so you know that MY opinion has a little more behind it than some of what I have read here. The Bible and other major religious texts have a lot of material in them. I do not think there is ONE church or religion that acknowledges every single word.
Christianity has many different sects, if you will, because groups of people tend to focus on certain sections of the Bible. So perhaps before even asking your question you should clarify WHICH church you speak of when you ask your question. (By the way, I am not a "practicing" minister for many reasons, the main one being I have a couple of degrees and decades of life experience that make me not as tolerant of other opinions as I should be. Most churches would frown upon a minister who gets up in front of a congregation and calls them a bunch of dumb-asses in reference to some common beliefs. My point is, we all pick and choose what we wish to believe and practice from our religious texts. I happen to like the idea of God judging others instead of other people when it comes to some of the more controversial issues.
Actually WSP it might be refreshing to attend your church.
I can just see that.
the collection plates would always be empty.
Seriously, I was "raised" in and later joined a UCC church back in a small town North of Philadelphia. I went to church regularly until I went off to college and my parents STILL go every Sunday. my dad in fact did missionary work in Mexico. My church voted to leave the UCC organization because of some of the political controversies the UCC is involved in at present.
I am still an inactive member of a UCC church. When i do go it's funny to see how the lesbians sit with their arms around each other. my son has known what a lesbian is since he was 6 but at 11 now he is still too young to appreciate them.
Ok. I'll shut up now. You can see why I never tried to get work as a preacher. I can be a real big-mouthed jackass. Ask the women who turn me in and flag my hubs!
If you see anything you hate just tell me.
Seriously, I lived with my ex-wife for two years or rather she lived with me and my family before we got married. Then we got divorced 7 years later. I lived with my "baby-momma" for over 13 years . . . no marriage. While we both do our own thing now we still are together as parents of our son and, truth to tell, had a millionairess not proposed to me and almost married me I would still be in a relationship with my "baby-momma".
(Just for the record, the rich woman did not kick me to the curb. We just broke it off because of the consequences of our intentions being discovered by her family before we actually had a chance to get married.
There is one thing to be said for marriage. it can tie you together in a way that family may not try to tear apart. Since I was only intending to marry her it was easy for her step-daughter, not yet ex-husband and father to break us up.)
Had a good look around last night and became your fan. Not really sure I mean yeah I guess it could be off putting to some but you got to roll with it ya know.
That is my attitude regarding issues like this when you get down to it.
Someone decides it's wrong because that is what HIS church tells him and the assumption is made that other churches are wrong in what they believe or the other beliefs are simply ignored.
Roll with it and be glad yo have forums somewhere (like here) where you can post an opinion. We need to work on things we all agree upon not divide ourselves further because your church focuses on something MINE does not.
Sneak that is awesome! My parents are going on 55 years together. My grandparents pushed well past the 50 year mark and it was a second marriage for my grandmother, my fraternal grandfather died when they had only been married a few years.
It isn't that I detest the institution of marriage or that dating and then proposal and marriage can't work, I just think after the life I have lived for me now it matters more to know the person fully and completely before signing over into a life long legal commitment.
Because of that I made a conscious decision 5 yrs ago to stay single. I have not dated or persued a commitment since that time and won't. I miss it and like Scott said life is lonely which can be really, really hard at times but this has been my choice because of my life.
People need to be really aware of what they are getting into in the long term.
You are obviously a smart lady and I understanad what you're saying. In all honesty my wife and I tried to move in together, but we were 19 and we were ambushed. My Dad found out my fiance was moving in to my apartment with me. He parked his chair down in front of my door and wouldn't let us go in! We were freak'in! He was mak'in a big scene the occupants were in the hall watching, we could have died! So, my sweety went home with my Mom and Dad, I slept alone. So we got married twice and my Dad was happy.
I actually am very strongly in favor of a permanent single life, but, like marriage, I don't think it's for just anyone.
I actually had considered never marrying, but meeting Mr. F threw a monkey wrench into those plans.
That explains a lot of your comments!
But you should keep the monkey's wench out of the equation or you'll end up with your original thoughts of Spinstership.
If you find a Keeper .... Why would you let others negatively influence your happiness?
Hi Pam, I hope all is well with you guys. Good to see your wisdom off the leash again
Financial ramifications are a reason not to marry.
When my ex & I split up, we were both wiped out & i'm still struggling. Won't do it again.
I live in a predominantly Catholic country where shacking up (or living in) is frowned upon. Although nowadays, it just seems to be more and more 'accepted'.
I lived for three years with then-boyfriend-now-husband before we got married and I can say, it doesn't make any difference to us because we stayed the same and our commitment to each other is still the same. The piece of paper is merely a formality for us, done for the benefit of my family (especially my father, who died five months later after we got married).
Before that, I lived with my ex-boyfriend for three years before I broke up with him and until now, I'm thanking my lucky stars we did not end up married to each other. That decision to shack up (at least for me) was a wise one because it made me really see that there was no future for us (although it took me three years to realize that ), a realization that may not have otherwise occurred if we just dated one another without living together.
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in my case I lived in a consensual union with one of my past boyfriend and our relationship lasted only for two years. I have children and that makes it a little bit complicated. He doesnt want children, so I have to call it quits because my children are everything to me. I became wiser after we broke up.
We will never know if a relationship is going to last forever.After a failed relationship, we will have lots of lessons learned and the next time we will be wiser. I think it is wise just to live in consensual union first, anyway if you are really meant for each other you gonna stay with each other even without the benefits of marriage.
I like being shacked up. It just sounds naughty. And when my marriage became unbearable, I left. As simply as I would have had I not been married. When it's time to go, you go.
I also dislike the fact that I have to prove to someone (or something) why I should be allowed a divorce. I am expected to justify the dissolving of my relationship as well as ask permission to do so.
There wasn't a two year cooling off period prior to our marriage, nor were we expected to fill out comprehensive forms whereby we had to fit our relationship into one of three boxes.
You can rationalize any position to make it seem right. When alls said and done make sure you really understand what the union of a man and a woman really means.
Well, without God guiding you to your (intended) partner, this may be all you have left!
How many test drives does one need?
Everyone ends up with used cars, (er... I mean partners).
I'm awful glad my wife wasn't "test driven" before I married her!
All that can be avoided by what I said first. "Well, without God guiding you to your (intended) partner, this may be all you have left!
Now a days our knowledge of marriage, religion, moral, honour has been clouded by media, government, music, celebraties, religion, education. Instead of asking the obivious why marriage is dismissed ask a question that will make individuals think about their actions and are they prepared to face the consequences if any when we are judged? Or self value or worth? Setting an example?
Instead of judging individuals for their actions understand why this procedure is "the norm"
Iv been in a relationship for 12yrs and i have a child with the person. I dont like the thought of getting married as I have many issues with him and me as an individual and Im not sure if i can keep to my vows and dont want to be a hyprocrite and get married and saying the vows and not be prepared to committ to them fully. How disrespectful towards God would that be? Thats taking a mortgage that i know i cant afford or committ to or understand fully, it would not make sense... Nowadays most of society is mislead and cant handle situations for what they are which is why they are replaced with drink drugs sex... We look outwards for answers instead of within us. The church is place were hyprocrites resides (forgive me God... The real answer to question is... Persons have their reasons why they choose not to marry and God knows them and their hearts and as he is a compasionate God he understands and that is a personal subject between them and God and not for individuals to judge but to respect. Why make another ones personal descision your business? We will all be judged when the time is due and as your sinner like us all God says for us to do many things which im sure your guilty of not being obiedant... why do you do it? To be honest I already know and the answer is is that we are sinners and we are imperfect and we will continue to disobey and sin... My theory is IN ORDER TO SEE CHANGE BE THE CHANGE!
This an open forum we exchange ideas and perceptions without reservations. Your life is yours to live and I wouldn't dare judge you, I have enough to be judged for. The perception we are calling you out on your life choices isn't the case we're comparing what we think is right with what you think is right. The only correct answers anyone has are those we chose for ourselves.
So you are saying that your children should not listen to you??
With regards to above question which was asked........
If you teach your child to follow there instincts and teach them how to make good choices and educate them on the subject that you think is correct and they are aware whats right and wrong then until they can make their own minds up.
We have free will... My daughter is 6 i dont tell her want to do i advise her on what to do and always give her the choice and tell her wat might happen if she choose this way or that way. She then will make her mind up taking on board what i have said. (obiviously anything that needs me to intervene i will if it involves danger) Iv taught her this from young so that when she is older she understands that there is a consequence for everything. I try and guide her as best as i can as i know that i cant tell her what to do but guide, advise and educate her on making the best choice's in life. She will listen but whether she obeys is a whole new subject. But like i said In order to see change be the change... If you would like person to follow you be a role model as this is the best way to get persons to listen to you .
Many people do not depend on a church to tell them what their code of conduct to be.
Any relationship requires a huge amount of work. It requires being honest with one's self to see both flaws and strengths. Not being in denial of your own crap helps tremendously, and a willingness to work through any situation to the mutual benefit of both seems to be an important factor.
Additionally, I do not believe it's healthy for couples to be "joined at the hip." It only creates codependence, victim mentality, and entitlement. Huge issues which often kill a relationship. It's good to be agreeable to interdependence, not codependence. Interdependence is a way of interacting as separate individuals, bringing your best self to the relationship, and staying healthy in your own space as needed. Coming together is one of the great gifts of such relationships, if and when they actually exist.
wonderfully put! Am in complete agreement....
Wow! A real adult. I seem to meet so few these days - my hat's off to you
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