Enter At Your Own Risk?

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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Dear hubber,

I've posted to forum on many occassions, trying to gain knowledge of people, their belief systems and how they view life.

Feel free to ask or talk about anything. How ever, please maintain a level of respect for those who you do not know, either personally or formally.

Meaning, if you are new around the forums, pay some respect to those who have been here long than you. If you are a youngster, please keep your voice down, that includes your tone.

The older adults do not want nor do we need your adolesent behavior or childish rants. If you are here to discuss LIFE and it's nuances and other things, then jump in.

If you can not rationally think out the subject you bring up and cannot provide proof of what you say- then DO NOT say it.

Otherwise, listen - learn - absorb - understand.

With that said- Let's begin.
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  Justine76posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  k beliefs on what? im goin to beed soon so,dont get mad at me
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Justine,
  
  Beliefs- if you have some and want to express them, feel free. You want to ask a question about anything, to get someone else's opinions...pick a person or ask everyone.
  
  The choice is yours. I am looking to gain knowledge about people, so I am engaging as many different conversations as I can, without getting lost.
  
  I welcome your input at anytime.
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  Jackson Riddleposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It sounds as if that you consider yourself to be a veteran around the forums. Yes you have nearly 2000 posts but that has been over 4 weeks! So instead of spamming never ending threads and trying to gain respect from others by telling others to respect long-time members you might want to
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  jiberishposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have a question; Why are there so many relegious forums? Wouldn't it be easier to consolidate all these questions into one forum? Just asking!
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  jiberish, I find myself liking you more by the day : )
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wyanjenposted 14 years ago
You are asking for an awful lot... LOL
We'll see how it unfolds.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I know.
  
  But, what can I say, I want more knowledge about people and the only way to get it- is to ask people to talk to me. The forum under this heading we can talk about anything, without actually getting off topic.
  
  Most forums you have to stick to the topic, which means there is very little leeway to move off in a different direction even if that direction is worth talking about.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
So, what would you like to discuss?
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wyanjenposted 14 years ago
Instead of watching one forum deteriorate into three or four different threads, we can watch this one to see if three or four different threads blend into one single topic...

What's up. I called in fake-sick to work today but didn't do a thing with the project I'm working on. I'll probably get inspired around 11 PM then be up all night with it anyway. Shoulda just went to work i guess! HA
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Rick Marlowposted 14 years ago
How about the unbelievable salaries some ceo`s are getting?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is corporate America for you. Nothing changes.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's capitalism.
  I don't fault anybody for getting the most they can.
  If their unbelievable salaries are coming at the expense of profit, capitalism should correct for that.
  If most of us weren't hurting so bad, we maybe wouldn't even notice this. These salaries have not necessarily increased since the recession started, we just weren't paying attention before.
  
  Having said all that, the exposure they are receiving for earning unjustified salaries while their corps are losing profit and employees could mean the correction is coming.
  Water finds it's level.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To add-
  
  Sooner or later, the salaries are going to become a problem for bottomline profit and gross margins are always the first thing to be hit. If a company has to continue to increase it's margins year over year, because of salaries, then the business model is broken.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe: company makes no profit, company disappears.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Well, I can see you at least haven't lost your real-sense of humor.

Maybe, when we are done. You will be inspired to work on your project. Who is to know? Inspiration comes like lightning and usually when it does hit...it catches you off guard.

But, I look forward to an interesting conversation.
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drej2522posted 14 years ago
How about the Fair Tax...anyone for it??
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will end this conversation simply. There is NO such thing as a fair tax.
  
  Taxation is a source of government control, through spin.
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  Messenger_of_god8posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how about no tax
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how about no streets to drive on?
  
  Taxes are a necessary evil I'm afraid.
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  lostgirlscatposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Rick,

How well versed are you in disciple scriptures. Just the ones that talk about things he 'said'.

Most are conveyed in a specific manner and I'm looking for someone who has a little bit of knowledge, so I can fill in holes to unanswered questions.

I don't want to tell you the questions, but I would rather you simply tell me what you know? I know that sounds difficult, because you have amassed years of experience, but I'm more interested in material written words from Jesus' time.

I hope that came across properly.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I apologise Cagsil, I got called away suddenly on an urgent family crisis and didn`t have time to say good-bye.
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Paradise7posted 14 years ago
They keep trying, but haven't managed to iron out Fair Taxes ever, for anyone, all the way back to the beginning, and I doubt they ever will.

It's something we live with.
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awareposted 14 years ago
for this forum the words i believe or i think should acompany every post . thats what i believe
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, because for someone else to fill in 'misunderstood' holes in scriptures is subject to your own standpoint. So It comes down to "I think", or "I believe." particularly when there is a lack of sentient experience.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Understood....that's why that is in my post, to rick. He knows more about scriptures and probably has them available.
  
  Therefore, I can ask him to post some and we can discuss each of them.
  
  Nothing more.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Thank you for your humor. It was cute.

Hello aware?

How are you?
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awareposted 14 years ago
im good ty i like your forum topic very much
good to see you . but i was not meaning to be humorous
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you.
  
  So, what's on your mind?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
True enough Jen.

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wyanjenposted 14 years ago
I believe I have a topic I would like to see everyone discuss:

Paper or plastic?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paper or parchment, per se.
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awareposted 14 years ago
insistence as a short coming
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good one!
  It seems it is a short coming, but what if the insister is the only one who is correct?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Insistence as a short coming?
  
  Interesting choice.
  
  Insistence is based on knowledge and understanding of that knowledge and the overwhelming need to reinforce one's position on such knowledge(and it's understanding pertaining to thesmselves).
  
  Sometimes, insistence can be seen as arrogance or ignorance. Depending on topic?
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Insistence can also seem needy.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing I didn't already say.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I took reinforcing a position as arrogant, not needy. Was just my impression as I read.
  
  But I'm not insisting either way
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Right, but what you overlooked was the word "NEED" in front of reinforce?
  
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See? It only took an hour for a semantic argument to pop up.
  NEED = require (to me)
  NEEDY = looking for attention (to me)
  
  RE from the other thread, why fight?
  
  I don't mean start throwing insult bombs. I mean, give it your best argument!
  I like the word fight better than the word debate. I'm from Detroit.
  
  But, don't let the scary-ass pumpkin fool you, I'm a total hippie.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Needy people aren't insistent...they are persistent.
  
  Fight is a better word than debate, but discussion is still a better word- Want to fight about it?
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hell yeah, bring it!
  
  I didn't know your name is Ray. Nice to meet "Ray". I totally can't pronounce your HP name so I have to associate you with your avatar and you keep changing the picture which confuses me.
  
  problem solved.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, my HP name is CAG Sil. That's how I pronounce it.
  
  As for your project- recycling is the only way for mankind to clean up it's mess. And, as I stated above, it is damaging the Earth, the longer we live.
  
  Plastic can be harmful to people, at times. I do not think that we should worry too much about cutting down trees, because so many people plant trees. Maybe not enough, but that shows mankind's ignorance of their own actions.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i define insistence my own way . i dont insist that others agree on my definition. even the dictionary lets people pick
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  Sue Adamsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "....based on knowledge and understanding...."
  
  at a particular time
  
  I have often felt strongly right about something and later changed my mind.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Sue,
  
  How are you today?
  
  Welcome to the forum....haha.
  
  Sorry, I set it up and have been chatting for a few hours.
  
  Glad to see you?
  
  What do you want to talk about?
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awareposted 14 years ago
for writing on i like paper. cups i prefer plastic. notice i didnt post paper is the best or plastic is the only way
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I did notice that
  But what if I made you choose?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I chose paper. Plastic can be dangerous to people and isn't helpful to nature.
  
  As for drinking cups? I would say, refined wood would be optimal.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what do you prefer plastic or paper?
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I apologize, I wasn't meaning to be pushy.
  It seems silly in this thread but it is an honest question actually. I'm working on a recycling project this weekend so I'm curious.
  
  I prefer paper.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See Jen, you were inspired to ask your question which is pertaining to your project.
  
  Interesting, huh?
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yup.
  Now, you guys need to all start fighting about it. I have my theory set, but I'm interested in what you are all thinking about it.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Fighting about it?
  
  Why?
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  thanks i think i misunderstood the forum intent my bad not yours. this post of yours was good . you shared your preference and stated why and didnt bash anyone else es answers .
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sandra rinckposted 14 years ago
Hi Vagisil!

Knowledge from the Rinck perspective regarding the god.

Tis like man, thus imperfect (though I believe we are all perfect because we live, to have never been born shows something was not right, thus you did not have what is essential for life, whatever this be. A child born with only a few seconds of life is perfect. Those with disabilities, life threatening diseases and such are still perfect. Perfection in my eyes is the ability to be alive no matter how short or long the life lives and will die as the natural order of life).

While imperfections are a trait that humans came up with on the search for what constitutes perfection, something perfect can be found in everything that lives and is. Perfection does not exist in the way that humans like to portray what is perfect.

If man is created in the image of god then god is imperfect. Because perfection as it is, the way I see this, must live and die and it naturally obeys the laws of nature or the laws of the Universe.

For something to be from nothing is imperfect. So I understand God as an imperfection, something that is but never was. Something that came but never left, something that left but never came... you see the parody here I assume.

Why something that neither lives, dies, never was or always was but has no origin is said to be "perfect" is unlike anything that actually exist.

I believe in the Muslim tradition, this is called forbidden. Not forbidden like, "here is a door, do not enter because it is forbidden", more like it's forbidden because it is impossible.

It doesn't answer that one question we all eventually or have already asked, "where did it all begin. Why are we here. What is the point of life."

Some say it is to find God. To some extent I can accept that as a reasonable desire because in a lot of ways the need to know is with us and has always been. However what I cannot accept is that god is perfect because we live in a dual reality and god is not natural.

Time is imperfect. It never ends. It may not mean much outside of earth but it never goes backwards and it never stops and who is to say it ever really began.

So it is in my eyes that most search for something that is imperfect and believe it to be perfect. They search for what is unnatural and impossible and give credence to it as though it will save your soul.

Some believe that a life that has only lived a short time was imperfect because it inherited a disease or an illness, they say something was wrong with it instead of giving adoration for being what it is, a real life.

So they search and search and search for all that is unatural instead of looking at what is right in front of their faces.

Anyways, you get the point...I think.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is very nice.
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awareposted 14 years ago
i thought this forum was intended to let people state their ideas not question the ideas of others did i read it wrong?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's a generalized discussion forum. You can express your views or beliefs.
  
  I simply stated mine.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Hello Sandra,

I see you are in a spirited mood today.

I will agree- Mankind is perfect. It is mankind's limited vision to see perfection or create perfection from nothing that seems to be the problem.

Since mankind cannot or doesn't see how they are perfect- then it is in their nature to strive for it, even though they do not know what holds them back.

The missing element of what holds them back is their inability to believe themselves to ever be perfect. I do find it interesting that mankind is bent on seeking perfection from the unknown entity, who is supposedly created life on Earth.

How ever, one thing I've noticed in your post- You say we can from nothing? There is no proof of that, except what is learned from 'religious' text.

Science has yet to determine where or how mankind came to be, but what I do know- LIFE itself came to be because the Moon in orbit around Earth, established a life-form existent environment. Which, if it hadn't- life would not have formed on Earth.

So, you can take what you want from that.

And, on another note- would you please either call me by my screenname or by my name- Ray.

I do find it disrespectful for you not to.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Ray, I didn't know your real name. I apologize. Did I say that life comes from nothing? If I did then it was a typo. That or it could have been derived from the confusing use of imperfect=god=perfect=man etc...
  
  To my understanding, life did not begin on Earth but the organism or thing whatever it be, existed elsewhere in the Universe and was brought here by a star (meteor whateva)because water existed before life began but water is essential to the life on Earth.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See, that is where evolution comes into play. The collision of the meteor that hit Earth, which was established to be our moon, has resources and compounds, which are part of our make-up.
  
  It helped evolve life on Earth, but science has proven what was the chemical make up of the meteor which hit Earth then. I know because it is part of basic science of Earth and Mankind's existence on Earth.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You mean carbon?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I mean alot of things. Nothing one specific.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The science hasn't gotten to is about the specifics of 'how' or 'where' we came from and my personal opinion is that it doesn't matter.
  
  We exist. Living in the past, trying to dig up the past, to learn where or how we came to be...isn't as important as living for today and preparing for the future.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that living today is more important than anything else. Though to see the future I think we should have to understand our past and find our origins so we don't repeat the same mistakes such as believing in things that don't exist and killing for them etc..
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Understood, but not every detail needs to be learned. Learn what you can and move on with what's most important.
  
  Same as like driving- you drive a car, you look in your mirror every so often, it tells you where you been, but cannot tell you where you are going. You have to look straight forward to see where you are headed.
  
  That's most important.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We've said similar things Sandra - must be a planetary alignment!!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As for why people kill people? Well, that's one humanity is still figuring out.
  
  Why people believe in something that they can not see, touch, taste or hear...is another question that remains unanswered, but philosophy(I believe) can answer it.
  
  But, no likes a shrink.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Was that another assumption? Philosophy cannot answer that question. Not everyone thinks in the like terms when it comes to philosophy. Not everyone is able to understand a basic philosophical statement when there is more than one meaning.
  
  Hi Jewels!!!!
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That depends on what it is you're looking for and why you are looking for it. I suppose there are differing agendas. I personally have learned allot from introspective regression. And in order to move forward sometimes the past has to be cleaned up.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But, as I've learned as a part of my studying over the last 20+ years...I've learned that there are some questions that need never be answered.
  
  Example: Theologians for centuries have made a big deal out of where mankind came from or why of the universe?
  
  These questions leads to mystical inventions for answers and begs people to argue about a creator or who created the creator.
  
  It's irrelevant. Life exists- WHY? is the only question we each must answer ourselves. Why do we live?
  
  Sometimes that basic question such as Why do we live? can be answered- you were born?
  
  Why were you born? Because your mother got pregnant.
  
  Anything other than that...need not be answered.
  
  Life exists. Be done and move on.
  
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm begging to know how and when. I am a history geek.
  But I don't need to know why.
  
  Why implies that there is a purpose. I don't believe there is one, outside of what each person decides is their own purpose.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly my point.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is said by philosophers that the Why will never be an answerable question. The how IS an answerable question.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, a very Buddhist answer. However, if you gave up the search for answer (regardless of the one you will never find) then what would we do?
  
  What would we move on to? Would we become an even more materialistic and wasteful breed? Or are you simply saying, stop looking for something that doesn't exist and things will get better?
  
  I will give credit to the idea of a god because without it, mans mind may not have been moved in the sentient direction of course it's had its run and should be remembered just not repeated.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, let me take one question at a time, and this could get long( ), but to start off-
  
  What would we do? How about spending resources more on medicine or more money for schooling(education) or more money on bettering life as we know it.
  
  How we came to be sentient(consciousness) beings? Can be explained through research already done by science and philosophy. One only has to search for it.
  
  The "bible" is a good history and mythology book to learn from teh mistakes of the past, but it is also not to be taken at face value, because of corruption of religious/spiritual leaders who have a hidden agenda.
  
  We know- Jesus Christ was a man. We also know that he was NOT a prophet, as religion would have you believe. We also know that the 'time' which he lived was the darkest time of mankind- considering the rulers were mostly made up of religious mystics, oracles and god-kings, who claimed to be able to talk to the supposed 'gods'.
  
  How ever, science has revealed that our conscious mind became aware through Jesus Christ's teaching. Again, research has been done and completed on the brain and the mental leap from animal to human consciousness. You just need to search for it if you want it.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry, this is where religion really pisses me off. When did I mention Jesus? Do you believe Jesus is god?
  
  Science has not revealed that our conscious mind became aware through Jesus Christ's teaching. Are you saying that everyone who came before Jesus was not aware of themselves?
  
  We are animals, you just need to not feel ashamed to know what you are. No research has been done on the brain that makes a mental leap from animal to human consciousness. lol.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus Christ teachings is the first glimpse into consciousness and it can only be found in religion.
  
  And, Yes, research has been completed many decades ago about the mind, consciousness and when about it was first documented.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Aristotle, Confucius and many, many other philosophers delved into the conscious way before JC eva did.
  
  Again, there is absolutely no evidence and no research that could even be available to suggest that humans took a huge mental jump from animal to human since we are still animals
  
  And it would impossible (unless you brought one of our homo ancestors back to life) and asked questions. lol
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I'm a bit annoyed also. Jesus was not the first teacher of consciousness, and not all the people he addressed were illiterate and unaware.
  
  Our conscious mind did not become aware through Jesus. What about Plato and Aristotle, both pre Jesus. Do you think they were not literate and were unconscious. Philosophy began with these men, or in writing anyway.
  
  Perhaps step outside Jesus as the sole source of your knowledge.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL I am soo with you gals on Jesus!
  
  Yet I found that for a Western person it is really really hard to get rid of him, or rather to put him into a reasonable perspective. The best example will be Sandra, you can track her posts and hubs through the last couple of years, and watch for yourself what a hell of a suffering process it was.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Totally saw what happened to Sandra. And extremely happy I am that you found your own center amongst it all. I think you're awesome for riding that wave Sandra.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was stressful but I did manage to come back to shore.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not interested in those question you have mentioned. Inner vision is a phenomenal experience. As for said mystical invention of answers - that is also subjective. Just because you are not having MY experience does not make my experience invalid. And the more I have MY experiences of non physical phenomena the less mystical they become. This is the level of consciousness I seek and am succeeding in doing so.
  
  Now it's very easy to get the answers as to why I was born to my parents. There are organic answers and then esoteric answers. I have a very delving mind, but putting that aside, I also wish to experience for myself that which is written. It's not good enough to just move right along and accept someone elses words.
  
  Philosophy = the love of wisdom. Wisdom comes from experiences. Nous = knowledge = to know = to experience. The experience unfortunately is missing in todays philosophy and we take as gospel what has gone before. That makes for a sleepers mentality from the outset.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely Jewels. I couldn't ever say that what you experience in invalid when I already know that all yours are yours but we can converse on the subject with the intention of finding that locked away place where knowledge is waiting to be known.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I just think you got something mixed up. Our moon was formed from the Earth.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  (diplomatic interruption)
  I believe the moon was formed from the earth - when it got plunked by a meteor. I think you are both correct here...
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it was. That doesn't mean that an organism must have come from the meteor. There could be another explanation for it, which science hasn't yet found.
  
  That's all I was saying.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
You asked what we thought. We told you.

Is there another question you want answered?

That might create an argument? Such, as is important to recycle?

If that would be your next question- I would say "Yes".

I do realize that the Earth is 4+ Billion years old, but mankind and it's destructive ways, can and will, have long-term effects on Nature, the longer we live.
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awareposted 14 years ago
i need 8 hrs sleep or i feel tired the next day.
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wyanjenposted 14 years ago
Here's what I'm looking for when I ask paper or plastic:
Do you think the environment is damaged more by cutting down trees, or creating litter that never degrades back into earth elements?
Are you concerned about whether plastic may be having a negative impact on your health?

...or, whatever angle you are interested in: if you have a different idea, throw it at me.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure that is all you want me to throw at you?
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  see i like this . ive read that new studys state plastic emits a chemical thats harm full . plus its almost non bio degradable. paper products on the other hand are now largely made from recycled material which ive read costs more and creates more environmental problems via pollution than fresh material cultivation dose . farming wood via smaller quick groth shrubs and trees . seems to me to be the best attempt at lessing our impact . think hemp my friend bring back hemp lol
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  AHA! Perfect!
  aware, you brought up a point that I had not included in my outline Thanks pal!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See, again beneficial?
  
  Who would thunk it?
  
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Jane@CMposted 14 years ago
I'm confused. This is in Religion, so is the original question to spark a religious conversation or a general conversation?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are more than welcome to talk about religion. I have no qualm with it.
  
  I set up the forum, as it is described in the opening post. I would like your view, knowledge, belief and/or opinion, on whatever you would like to discuss?
  
  I only ask that if you want me to respond, please make sure you realize I am carrying on more than on conversation at a time.
  
  So, welcome.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  god ideas im cool with the discussion . but not if its gona turn into a debate. i dont follow any religion or book but i have ideas about god and gods. they are in no way claimed by me to be fact or truth . first post demanding proof of any idea of mine or others and im out . lol. ok ill start. i dont think god or gods have a human form
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not qualified to comment on your last sentence but I'm with you on everything else here
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awareposted 14 years ago
ty for the civil exchanging of ideas.. your cool in my book
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No problem.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I really like the hemp idea for paper, bio fuel, clothing. Solves so many problems.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll agree.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hemp may be worth it's own Hub.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Btw, HI Jewels.

Nice to see you yet again.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. You can not assume anything ever. If you do, you're most likely have it blow up in your face.

Right.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't that an assumption?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, no it is not. It's factual.
  
  When you 'assume' something- you in essence are taking it on faith, per se. So, therefore, you can not determine it's course.
  
  And, if you cannnot see the direction it is going to go, then you cannot understand 'why' or 'how' it goes off course.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The joke went right over your head.
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wyanjenposted 14 years ago
BTW> wyanjen is my standard internet name. It means Jen, from Wyandotte (Michigan)
Usually when I make a new account for something, "jenrocks!" is already taken.
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awareposted 14 years ago
the thank you i posted was to wyanjen. just fyi
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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awareposted 14 years ago
i think killing is a primal instinct that all carnivorous share.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Animal instinct, survival of the fittest. I know if I was pushed hard enough I could do it. Most mothers would do it easily to protect their child.
  
  We are animals!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We are not animals. I think the human race is above animal mentality, simply because of their consciousness.
  
  Animals are reactionary creatures guided by nature.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So are humans.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We are animals for better or for worse. We share...... what?.........98% of the genetic makeup of a chimp.
  
  Humans react instinctually and emotionally. There are differences between the two, but we as humans do both.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Other animals such as dogs and elephants also react on emotions.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, they do....according to Nature's power or guidance.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Human has it's own nature. Not Nature of Earth like animals.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You'd be surprised at how much we have in common with both plants and animals. Our minds are the only thing that sets us apart.
  
  Procreation is the main thing we have in common with plants. Did you know that a plant will continue to have sex until it dies. No rest for plants. Apparently we share genes with the banana.
  
  We have much in common with animals, and it is debatable whether some humans are humans at all. Take the jungle woman from Indonesia as a good example of how we can mimic animals.
  
  Our upbringing, our nurturing (or unurturing) environments is what stands us apart from plants and animals. A child who has been beaten within an inch of it's life, abandoned and uncared for is not just going to forget it's past and move onward and be a fully functional accepting, forgiving, compassionate human being. Perhaps in an ideal world, but we don't live in one of those.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I realize everything you said and believe it or not, I understand it.
  
  What makes people do things is still trying to be answered.
  
  As for those who live in the wilderness and act like animals, is because they probably are still. Not evolved...who knows, without direct contact. No one can say for sure.
  
  My research doesn't pertain to that area, because I kept with science and philosophy. No individual make-up which is for deeper study.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The jungle girl went missing. She was initially with her family and got lost. 16 years later she was found.
  
  You can't put her circumstances down to her not being spiritually evolved. It was a matter of not being influenced by humans, but influenced by animals. The fact humans can be influenced in such a way by animals says major volumes about the human form.
  
  You say "what makes people do these things is still trying to be answered" It has been answered. Not sure where you are pulling this from. Human behaviour is modeled by environment, by the upbringing from it's parents, it's food, it's schooling, it's neighbourhood. What it sees, what it smells, what it touches, what it reads, what chemicals are put in it's body, what it is told to believe.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said, before I posted that- Why someone kills? Cannot be answered.
  
  You want to incorporate all the things you've said above you can, but that really doesn't explain - the IRRATIONAL actions of killing. Killing, itself makes no sense, even with all relevant information.
  
  That was my point.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Killing makes allot of sense to someone being threatened. Survival of the fittest. It's so funny that Americans have free reign over gun ownership. Why do you think they have guns in their homes?
  
  Why someone kills is very answerable. I'm not sure what planet you live on, planet earth has prisons with bulging walls.
  
  Killing is rational to the person being threatened.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, what about those that kill without having a reason?
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To the person doing the killing, they have reason otherwise they wouldn't do it. They'd have reason to do something else with their time.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, when a child molester take the life of child....His reason is what?
  
  He is feeling threatened?
  
  Come on. Let's keep it real.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you'll find by talking to a homicide detective or other law enforcement professional that there are reasons behind every murder. Some may not be obvious to begin with but if investigated deep enough are still present. Some of the most baffling crimes have the simplest motives. When once asked why he killed, the green river killer finally expressed because he enjoyed it, the act filled him with power and control over women who otherwise ignored and marginalized him.
  
  The molester usually kills out of fear of being caught believe it or not. In this day some crimes carry as high a penalty as murder so why leave a witness who can testify against you. Or it may be an act of desperation to cover their own actions from themselves, but I assure you there is a reason.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is always a reason. And it is very real. Cagsil. Law enforcement have become more and more involved with human cognitive behaviour as to understand the reason people do what they do.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, we got away from what we were on? It all started with instinctive mother defend or protecting a child against a threat.
  
  Yes, reasoned, but instinctive.
  
  Instinctive reactions to situations are not rational. They can't be.
  
  The rational mind cannot find any logical reason for killing or taking a life, except out of reaction or defense. Which comes instinctively.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, there is a reason, but what we were referring to was more along instinctive versus rational?
  
  Killing, the taking of a life can never be rational. Sure you can find out why? but, it still makes it irrational or instinctive.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Once again its irrational to YOU because you do not understand the thought process going on in the killers mind. Trust me when I say that at the moment killing was the most rational choice in the mind of said killer. Humans do not kill by instinct as this is a learned behavior based on repeated actions and muscle memory. A soldier may overcome his natural instinct to not kill through repeated training and exercise that enable him to react instantly. If anything the human instinct is not to kill. rationality is like faith, and belief a matter of perspective.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess, we'll agree to disagree.
  
  Because, taking a life isn't acceptable rational thought, under any circumstances- that's probably why I don't like wars, gangs, serial killers or anyone who takes a life.
  
  Wars are usually fought for political agenda. Gangs kill for whatever reason and the others only rationalize their options to prevent being detected or to buy time.
  
  Again, I'll agree to disagree.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I totally understand your point of view which Is why I further stress that killing by humans is not an instinctual behavior. That being said I will tell you for me and my fellow Marines killing the enemy was a rational and very thought out conclusion as it was the best way to achieve the objectives; end the war and destroy the enemy. I will never relish some decisions made in far away countries but at the time it was the most rational option. My instincts were to get away as fast as possible but had been overcome by training and the knowledge that fleeing would most likely result in my death and the death of my friends.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I get what you are saying and my point about this whole mess is that a person can kill, if they feel that their life is threatened....kill or be killed- that is instinctive.
  
  How you can say that it is not? Seems a little odd.
  
  As for 'trained' military and police officers. These people are trained to kill and defend, over and above, normal situations.
  
  Therefore they are the exception to the case.
  
  Killing a person, based on color? Is that rational?
  
  Killing a competitor because his business is doing better than yours? Is that rational?
  
  No, not in anyway shape or form. And, no matter what anyone says, if that type of behavior is allowed-
  
  What does that say about mankind? Which is how this whole subject got started.
  
  Rationalized killing in War? Yes, YOU must survive, that is what you are paid for and trained to do.
  
  Does that help?
  
  I'm not trying to be difficult...I'm trying to get more knowledge, so...if you can please try to stay within an area, while talking about it.
  
  If that didn't sound right- I'll try to explain more.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The issue really has nothing to do with killing or instincts or behavior that makes sense.
  
  You see something on TV, let's say a murder like the one that just happened here in my town. A couple was carjacked kidnapped, raped tortured then murdered by a group of men. This crime seems to baffle explanation. Why would they do this? Why didn't they just kill them or rape them or rob them then leave?
  
  There is no way to possibly say this is excusable or justifiable. In fact it was wrong, but ironically these men knew it was wrong, what started out as one crime progressed to another and another continually escalating in violence and brutality as the group became involved. However there was a point when these men knew what they did was wrong and they knew if caught they would go to prison for what they had already done. So they decided to kill them and attempt to hide the crime.
  
  This is where rationality comes into play. Its irrational to you because you can not imagine doing that to someone. To you it makes no sense at all. However these men were in a thinking rational mindset the whole time they did this, had they not been they would not have attempted to hide it. What I am trying to explain to you is that everything is a matter of perception. You disagree because from your view you can not understand it or wrap your mind around it. The depth of brutality and horror involved in this seems beyond sanity or logic, it is something more akin to a wild animals actions.
  
  Taking into account your comments about humans not being animals and apart from nature then I could understand now your perspective. Its easier to say killing is irrational and illogical then to say that we are closer to animals then we think. The fact remains that humans of complete rationality and sanity are capable of the most barbaric behavior imaginable. I see the rational logic in the mind of a killer because I can study the behavior and actions and put myself in their shoes only because as a soldier I have been in a position to act on my most basic and primal of thoughts.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Right, you're the exception. You've been trained.
  What or why these people escalated their actions, even knowing it was wrong, was their own stupidity.
  
  What lead to them wanting to rob? Needed money. Rationalized. Why kill, so they wouldn't get caught? Rationalized.
  
  What rape? A sexual desire uncontrolled, and since they had the opportunity...Rationalized.
  
  You and I know it is wrong. But these people who committed that crime rationalize their own behavior, because they could. The mind is a powerful instrument and yes people can rationalize what their actions are and even justify them, but when under scruitney of others...appears irrational.
  
  Again, I do understand. And, yes I can wrap my mind around, but as long as you understand where I'm coming from...then I've accomplished my goal.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You just repeated my point rationalizing is a matter of perspective and view point.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL I just was sooo bashed a few days ago on child molesting thread for similar views
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just because a person has a reason doesn't mean it is logical, right, or reasonable. People kill for all sorts of reasons they have them.
  
  Some cannot control their instinct. In cases like child molestation it is the sexual instinct that drives the action. It very well could be they make the same associate that a person makes with sex as instinctual and over powering that leads to the same desire to kill.
  
  Lack of self control, a problem with logic, they don't understand their emotions or where they are coming from, guilt, it may be learned or simply a detached sense of reality.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My argument for killing is that it's NOT rational?
  
  I don't care the reason. It is not a rational act for the average person, except for those in the military or police to take a life.
  
  A sexual sadist is a person who cannot control their thoughts and must act on those thoughts.
  
  Please....better self control would go a long way for those sick people.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What nature would that be then?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The nature of man and woman? What did you think I was talking about.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Still, even if the nature is man and woman as you put it, other animals still share the same instincts.
  
  Animals are also very particular about their mates. They protect their young, they reproduce, they survive by instinct and they are driven by Nature, just as we are. We are guided by our environments.
  
  You don't believe that dogs or Rhinos become jealous or angry?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are not guided by your environment. You are guided by your mind.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What do you think guides your mind?
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The mind is guided by the sum of it's experiences - the good, bad and ugly. The mind does not escape trauma unscathed, which is why the human condition has fallen to such a disgraceful point.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do by the thought I create.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And what you think can be and usually is guided by your environment. Not sure a beaten child is going to turn the other cheek. Have you had a charmed life?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, my mom and dad divorced when I was young.
  
  And, my mom's boyfriend loved to beat the shit out of me, while he put my sister on a pedestal.
  
  So, no I don't think I've had a charmed life.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And you believe that you are not at all influenced by anything else?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am influenced only by experience and the knowledge, and understanding of that knowledge, which what guides me.
  
  If you're expecting me to be guided by another authority, sorry, I don't take any orders, except for those I give myself.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Authority was not what I was going for. I was saying that your thoughts are product of your environment and the things that you have learned or experienced etc.
  
  Just saying that while your thoughts are your own, they are influenced.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I said this before.....environment(past only) as in experience and thoughts(learned knowledge & wisdom) is what guides me.
  
  If that is what you are talking about then Yes. That is how I guide my life. I would use influenced as a word to describe it. But you are more than welcome to believe that.
  
  Influence is a very broad term.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dolphins rescued my friend Dave. He was on a pontoon boat and got stuck on a sandbar.
  They bashed and bashed the boat until it was free.
  
  He was completely stupefied. At first, he thought they were sharks When he realized what they were doing, he just could not believe it.
  I was blown away by it also, but I hear similar stories all the time.
  
  Humans have unique qualities, but other animals have higher intelligence and emotion as well.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A higher intelligence than humans..no. Than most other animals..yes.
  
  Emotion? Human trait....given to animals by man's description of action.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i see killing in a big way .i eat meat. i kill weeds. and germs when i clean
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now, you are being too literal.
  
  Your individual survival is all that is necessary.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tell that to a mother.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A mother is going to do whatever is in the best interest of her or her family.
  
  I was generalizing humans.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  this father dosent want the right to chose . i wish mothers didnt want it too
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who says a mother wants to? It would be much easier if we didn't feel the need to ensure the survival of our children.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  41 million a year want to . main reason being? gender. girls die. boys live . statistic's ive read from world health org. state that . granted they could be flawed. i see it not as necessity but for want.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  is it ok with you for me to be literal? cus if not ill conform just for you. but then you have to conform to a way of thinking of mine at a later time of my choseing
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Those darn germs!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yup. I wouldn't think twice.
  
  and, yup again. We are.
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
wyanjen, I agree about purpose. So much gets tied up in this purpose for living thing. Interesting when one finds a purpose and achieves it, they look for another.

Isn't purpose purely about Living? And for those who find living difficult, I mean really being ALIVE and LIVING, then perhaps there are deeds from the past that need to be cleared away in order for that person to get back on track and succeed in living.
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awareposted 14 years ago
i think the meaning of life is perpetuation of the species
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with that idea.
  It is what drives us on.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It helps add meaning to one's life, but not the sole purpose.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i am small life is bigger than me .i derived my answer on this from all life forms not just humans
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awareposted 14 years ago
i am against abortion except for medical reasons , and rape or incest .
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll agree to disagree- the right is always the woman's choice.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i think humans are animals
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awareposted 14 years ago
im not insisting conformity tho
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I think we're the product of an experiment gone wrong.
If Eternity exists, our life is meaningless.
If God exists, he can't be happy with the result of his 'creation'
If the soul exists, we're here waisting our time.
If we think we're wonderful. intelligent beings, we're blind.

One way or the other ,we better enjoy life. This ,as human beings ,is the only life we'll get. Not much, I would say, if you look around. If you realise in the hands of who or what, have you put your life in. Beautiful human beings indeed !
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome Tantrum,
  
  Glad to see you decided to join us.
  
  Interesting thinking.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Sandra,

I hope this helps.

This perspective is from Aristotle, master philosopher.

Human beings are by nature good, rational, and productive(or mankind could not exist). Human beings are competent to fill their needs to achieve happiness. By being free to act according to their own nature, they will best serve themselves and society without force or coercion from any authority or government.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The intended meaning of nature is instinct.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
I'll be back in about 5 minutes.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
You don't believe that dogs or Rhinos become jealous or angry?

Not jealous or angry. Those are human emotions, which mankind has attached to animals.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Umm, did you ever have a pet?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. I have 2 cats presently?
  
  Why do you ask?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because watching their behavior makes obvious to me they do become jealous. And they seem to have other emotions, too:)
  
  brb, in half an hour or so
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  These emotions are some of the driving forces of survival.
  Of course rhinos get jealous. If they didn't, they would not compete for a mate.
  Survival of the fittest is more than an abstract theory
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I was away contemplating plastic...
  
  I do believe that animals have emotion. Anger, jealousy, fear, love, all come from an area of the brain that all animals share.
  
  What is {probably} unique to humans is the ability to analyze the emotions.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Animals, if they were not guided by Nature's automatic guidance system- would not be able to exist. They cannot think for themselves, that is the power of nature.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know, not being an animal yourself?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Science has proven animals are not smart enough and need guidance from nature. Long ago documented.
  
  I thought that was common knowledge.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, it is not. To the best of my knowledge, science does not know yet. Care to prove your categorical point, as you outlined in the rules?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your human consciousness- the ability to separate yourself from the world around you.
  
  Animals cannot.
  
  How is that?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, how do you know animals cannot not being an animal yourself?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My dog separates herself from my kid everyday! lol
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL I bet it's a hard thing to do. Your kid is so sweet.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Science has already accounted for the fact that animals are not conscious beings.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You keep repeating it, but I did not see the proof yet.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean sentient? Because, like Jewels said, the aren't unconscious. lol
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wonder what books he is getting his information from. No offense Ray but you seem to be getting some really shady science literature.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  IDK Sandy, there are a plenty of books out there, and the whole internet, too. Separating good from weeds is not always easy.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting.
  
  The fact you don't understand or don't see, is expected. Not everyone retains information the same.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely. But I am still waiting on the proof of animals lacking emotions/intelligence/soul/power in relation to humans. Or do you just want me to believe in it?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can not you not understand that you're consciousness is what allows you to differentiate your emotions?
  
  Animals are not sentient. They cannot step from the world and analyze anything.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I cannot understand it. Because I do think you don't know this for sure, and I don't know this for sure. The fact that you chose to believe in it, pretty much like people believe in Jesus, does not make it true, sorry.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Misha?
  
  What makes a TREE Grow?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Frankly I have no idea. Neither chemically, nor otherwise, what you probably mean.
  
  But please don't tell me that it is your consciousness that caused you to grow into an adult from a few pounds baby
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Giant floating piles of plastic garbage in the Pacific Ocean have proven that human animals are not smart enough and need guidance from nature.
  
  Which animals have science proven to be not smart enough?
  Nature is sounding a little bit like god here.
  
  Some animals more than others survive on instinct. If you put humans in a different group, how do you explain out own instincts?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's exactly what I am sensing here too.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Different in each person. But, yes mankind is higher intelligence than animals....simply look at the power of mankind versus animals.
  
  That consciousness separates us and makes humans better.
  
  GOD? What god? LOL
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What god is MY point! Are you trying to pull a fast one?
  Your explanation of nature does sound kinda divine there
  
  Human intelligence is certainly higher than in other animals.
  One reason is our ability to think abstractly. Another reason I think is our ability to communicate. If we didn't all have books and schools, if we had no education, we would not be able to discuss abstract things.
  
  But none of this means that lower animals are blank slates being guided about with no free thought and emotion. Animals face decisions and then make them, same as we do.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So what you are saying is nature is the guiding force which causes us to learn?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No Your Majesty, I am not going that far - albeit I don't argue with this.
  
  My point was that I frankly not sure we are any smarter than animals, especially those really smart ones like dolphins. I am not saying we are not, but I am not saying we are either.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know if we're smarter then animals as humans are the only species to willfully operate outside of balance with their environment and habitat, thus endangering their own survival. Animals know when to stop mating consuming and depleting when the environment can't support it.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then I would have to say that you don't give the human race enough credit....
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why should I? Unearned credit is the root of our recent problems
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Remember....per se, as I said before- Human Nature is different than Nature which guides animals.
  
  That statement I gave earlier is an absolute about man and woman. Which describes 'HUMAN' nature.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
You know, jewels and I thought we were getting along so well.

Now, you seem to be offended by something I've said or by my actions.

If I have offended, please let me know. I apologize.

Killing isn't rational at all. It is instinctive reaction.

It happens without thinking. Why do you think most people who have to defend their life....barely remember what happened?

Because, instinct takes over the rational mind.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're talking in circles and not making sense toward your own statements. You think people don't remember trauma?
  
  Killing as an instinct is animal behaviour. Humans act on instinct the same as animals. Humans do have a rational mind and do know the difference between right and wrong. But if a human is not nurtured and brought up and treated in such a way, that rational thinking is no longer possible, then you are not going able to play by the ideal rules you are wanting to get to. A persons mind can become a sewer and that is because of the treatment they receive from their environment. This is basic psychology.
  
  In order to understand the rational and irrational mind, high and low states of consciousness one really must learn to See from a wider perspective. It helps to surround yourself with people of all walks of life who have experienced rape, beatings, abuse, famine, war etc. And also to surround yourself with people who have had charmed lives, good education. Then you can understand what makes a person do what they do.
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
I have an appointment and have to go. Cagsil, I really think you are talking about an ideal scenario that is rare. The majority of people are totally unaware that they are the sum of their parents expectations and wantings. Until one can separate themselves out from their primal upbringing, their state of consciousness is pretty blurred by circumstance. Thing is, people don't even know it. Awareness is not being a sleeper. A sleeper is one who is embroiled by it's environment and does not have a mind of it's own beyond that environment.

So to talk about rational thinking and being guided by the choices of ones mind, is a mindfield in itself.

Enjoy your bantering.

Sorry Misha, I couldn't hang around till your return.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good night jewels, I enjoyed your company.
  
  I'll talk with you again sometime.
  
  It's been fun.
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Scott.Lifeposted 14 years ago
It is a sad but necessary truth that whether desired or not sometimes killing is the only rational option in a situation. Some people can not be reasoned with or negotiated down, and if not killed will kill you. Now will you accept that conclusion or fight against it. If you seek to further your life on earth then the only rational course of action is to kill before being killed.

This could probably be grouped back under the instinct of survival, but illustrates the problem with rigid beliefs. If you are not free to move beyond beliefs from time to time then it will get you killed literally. I abhor killing and violence, had I not been able to move beyond those beliefs and do what was beyond my instincts I would never have come home from Afghanistan.
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awareposted 14 years ago
only men think of ways to kill . only men torture and premeditate. only men kill when told to kill . only men kill over ideas. only men flock to war. only men punish killing with killing. only men whole scale kill their young for theory's sake. or in a attempt to control natures process. on second thought, i think us not animals , i think us worse.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I once saw on a nature show (so sorry, I don't remember which one) a group of chimpanzees stalk and murder another chimp. They had no motivation in terms of survival to do it.
  They just killed it, and walked away from it.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I saw that special too, I think they said that in all of nature humans and chimps share two common traits, they kill for purposes beyond survival, and have sex for causes beyond purely mating.
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ohh thats right i saw that one too . so there are holes in my theory . again my friend your a good conversationalist ty again
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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awareposted 14 years ago
scott ive been reading your posts also and appreciate your thoughts and civil dialog . to guys like you make forums worth while i think
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well thank you, I try but you can ask Misha there have been times when I have gotten uncivil, but I do feel bad about it. Ironically Misha has a reputation as a scrapper among many religious posters yet he's usually the one to reign me in.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Not that I try intentionally, it just happens
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awareposted 14 years ago
wyanjen scott . its late and works early tomorrow . i hate to repeat myself but in this case its due it was cool discussing things with you both . good job . and good night
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Later my friend
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  great discussing with you too - when I publish my paper/plastic thing I'll let you know so you can see where I added the input you gave me. It will be there! lol
  take care
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How is the project coming along?
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's going pretty slow, what with the forums
  tomorrow is another day.
  This really was a fake-sick day for me, so why the heck not waste it anyway...
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I'm enjoying your company.
  
  So, I guess that could possibly be consider a plus.
  
  But, that depends on how you want to look it, you know, perspective and all.
  
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do consider it a plus. Who else was I gonna talk to?
  But if any of you guys sees my lazy butt in the forums tomorrow, give it a kick
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Bye aware
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
LIFE

That's it.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well there's the problem the sperm are green! or tadpoles, or okay I'm stopping now.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Scott are you leaving? or hanging?
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm outta here for now, you all are aces in my book, nice to see a somewhat civil discussion on the forums. I'll be lurking around.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Scott - Take good care
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Take it easy. Have fun.
  
  Enjoyed your company.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Animals are not conscious.

That is proof.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is our savior!
  
  That is proof
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Where's your proof now?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In the same place as yours. Want me guess?
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
Animals can make decisions can't they? So they must analyze something.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not introspective measurement, such as conscious.
  
  Prime example: my cat just puked in my mom's room. If it had a conscious it wouldn't have stayed in my mom's room.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe your cat doesn't have a high opinion of your mother. Or her room.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If ya gotta puke, ya gotta puke. He may have a conscious, but honestly not give a damn.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Come on.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  These types of statements prove you are unaware of what consciousness is. Did you think perhaps the cat liked your mom's room over yours. Maybe it felt better and it preferred to puke there.
  
  The cat does not know what is right and wrong in your eyes. It knows what is right and wrong in it's own eyes. It is conscious enough to know that it's better not to puke in it's own bed, best do it in someone elses. Now that sounds quite human.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know something Jewels, a cat or dog doesn't know right from wrong- "in it's own eyes" even then it doesn't. The animals is too stupid. If you really believe that a cat and/or dog has it's own right or wrong conscious ability.
  
  Seriously, go back to school. These things are ANIMALS and can not be tell the difference. You act like these animals are human. And, clearly they are not, nor do they have the ability of acting like a human.
  
  As for my take on consciousness, and we've had this conversation before- so, I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to justify continuing to repeat, repeat and repeat myself.
  
  How ever, since you are a lady and always showed respect, I will- an animal is alive- yes. an animal thinking for itself? NO! Nature guides it.
  
  Human are the only one life-form with any intelligence on planet Earth. And, to think that an animal is on the same level as Human is ridiculous. Can your cat do the dishes? Can your dog make the bed?
  
  I don't think so.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're missing the point. From an intellectual standpoint, of course you are correct in what you are saying. Cats and dogs do not have the same level of reasoning as humans.
  
  However, and this is what is being passed to you be many previous posts on this thread, human beings are in such turmoil within themselves, their state of reasoning right from wrong is lacking integrity. It is not hard to compare the actions of a human being with those of an animal. That's pretty simple to see and it's really not necessary to debate. A human's actions speak louder than words.
  
  Intellectually, yes humans and animals are different in knowing right from wrong. We are a different species.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, I am not too sure about it Julie. Good morning
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This makes it sounf as if there are two species on this planet: humans and animals.
  
  Humans are animals. There are many species, some more closely related than others.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good Morning Misha. Seems we do have to split hairs with this - so for the sake of rational clarity and sanity on this thread I'll stick to being a separate species!
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't this sorta like debating with a child? He believes that Jesus was the first time people became consciously aware. His science facts are deplorable and his reasoning is deficient.
  
  At least he has a sense of humor though.
  
  He says animals are guided by nature and argues their ability to reason while at the same time he says humans are guided by their own nature. Which is exactly the same as any other animal. I don't think he really understands "nature" in the context of the debate.
  
  Human intellect is stupefied in my opinion. Washing dishes doesn't make us smarter. Crapping in a toilet doesn't make us cleaner and it certainly doesn't mean we are superior.
  
  As it were, it would seem that a cockroach is more superior than humans but because it cannot do the dishes it must be stupid. lol
  
  I thought for real that Ray wanted to learn but it doesn't seem so. He wants to be right and it isn't any surprise to me that this is what you can expect from people who believed on blind faith in whatever it is rather than being open to just the facts and using just the facts to formulate logic and a reasonable understanding of the natural world.
  
  But this you already know.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Okay?

Answer: What makes a TREE grow?

It is considered alive, but has not consciousness....so how does it grow?
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
I'm confused. Isn't it conscience?
Even I was spelling it wrong because I was confused.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Consciousness is your awareness that you are alive.
  
  Conscience is your inner-voice that tells you the difference between right and wrong.
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  Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I know the difference. Just didn't know which one you were referring to. Either way, who am I to say that plants and animals don't have either, or both?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I guess you don't give yourself enough credit of understanding something you been taught that is basic science.
  
  Plants are not conscious and to even think so, shows natural ignorance in defiance of science as well as everything else humankind has learned over the centuries.
  
  Don't take offense.
  
  If you cannot recognize another conscious life-form, then I say there is a problem with science not getting out to the community enough.
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