I will give a hint:
Because individuals challenge their group f_ _ _ _.
Just a thought on my part. How many non believers did you offend in that same thread?
It is always about believers even though from what I read many nonbelievers were also offended.
I don't know. To all those eternally offended by what I did for challenging and showing the differences of faith, I appologize.
Faith is pretty strong. An individual idea doesn't get through to a faith filled mind most of the time is because it challenges the faith. Most of the time, the only time the faithfull will accept anything is if they have faith you share their faith. People do not like their faith disagreed with. I'm glad you caught me early and wasn't offended. Good job.
The only answer that I can give to the question is that, that one individual musta been workin at it real hard.
Dude, you must have b@--s like basketballs. No way could I toy with people like you did on your thread. I’d give myself an ulcer, if not a coronary. But I must say the irony is not lost on me. Two POed believers get banned, for what is reported as being for use of language, namely the F-bomb, and they and others are angry that you have not been banned as well.
I love it! It sucks having to think! It is very stressful at times.
I have one more question that I would like them to answer for me.
Why are so many emotions tied into their faith? I think the emotions are the glue that holds the faith together.
Emotions are the glue that holds many things togeter:)
Golly Marine, it is not that hard to figure out. Though I would still take you out by the ear for messing with them like that (it was funny but not funny).
It is what they have. Generally speaking most have lost hope. Their faith is based on a 'renewed spirit' their rebirth hence 'born again' and because they have found hope in it, it is what they depend on.
I strongly disagree with where a lot of them take their belief... mainly the ones who have been indoctrinated from birth and never really understood what it gives others who reached rock bottom before they got 'the word'...
Tinkering with their faith, to intentionally make a fools out of them in their deepest hearts content was, in my opinion, wrong.
They have every right to be angry with you and to tell you to f-off. In my mind I think I was telling you the same thing too. It's one to be openly against their beliefs, another to really believe and change your mind but another to poke fun at their expense the way you did.
I poke fun all the time but I don't go there and I don't go there because you never know if what you say or do is enough really hurt them.
I know, I know, I know. It is the internet and it's not your fault and it just proves how worthless their faith is etc... I heard it all but regardless. You were messing with their emotions...not so much their faith.
And go ahead the rest of ya'. Tell me I shouldn't defend them blah, blah, blah. Just cause I strongly disagree with most all of them doesn't mean I think it is okay to do those sort of things to people.
In my mind, Marine, it makes you much worse.
Their faith is separatist and is also taught to their children passed on from generation to generation. Thank for your thoughts. I do not defend separatist faiths. If your feelings are hurt for the believers, I appologize. The truth isn't always peaceful. Their faith is their emotions. I am tired of being cried to when I have single handedly defended myself against the faith protecting believers far before my stunt. The stunt was justified.
I feel really bad for Crazd. (And others.) I think she really feels hurt and betrayed. She said you “turned against” her. I looked back and saw where she said she was sorry to have ever called you friend, unfanned you, and unfriended you. I saw where you called her separatist, but not sure what I missed that made her feel you turned against her.
It was on the other thread that they didn't think I would read.
I know, I put it there. But I think she got banned before she could see/respond.
special message from Crazd.
"he started attacking me when I stood up to him when he kept attacking people like manly and others who called him out on it. It's really sad that Marine has fallen so low. And everyword I said to him I stand by, he is an a______ and I have no respect for him anymore. you can tell rmcrayne that what I told Marine I still stand by because he turned against me when he only pretended to be my friend only to backstab me."
Thanks sooner for the update. I'm really sorry Crazd and others were hurt. I understand they feel betrayed. But I've reviewed the thread several times and I don't see the "attacking" of Crazd or the others she refers to. I see lots of rhetoric, typical marine soapbox lines, but I don't see attack language. And I'm not condoning his ruse. I could not have done such a thing in a million years.
I suppose Crazd will de-friend me now as well. I hope not. I just call 'em like I see 'em.
This is why I was so upset with that thread ... as I knew the aftershock would hurt some good people.
Learning something new isn't always comforting. It's much easier to sit in faith not having to learn anything. If people didn't have so much emotional glue holding the religious taught faith together, they would be open to learning without stunts like the one I pulled.
Again, thank you for being an honest medium. It takes much more strength to be a medium than it does to go with the crowd.
How did I backstab her when my idea of the thread was clearly explained before she ever posted? Wouldn't that mean that she backstabbed herself for assuming? I gave her my appology and explained why I did the thread.
I thought Jesus taught forgiveness.
I have been saved!
Joined: 8 months ago
Fans: 395I was so ignorant before. I thought I knew it all. I finally lost my arrogance and humbled myself and asked for forgiveness through Christ! He answered! I have been saved!
How is this clearly explained? Now...you're starting to believe your own lies!
im sorry i missed all that.
crazed is a sweet and open girl.
marine, r u ok?
dont let so much get to you. you believe what you believe, you dont need to prove it either way...
you are being baited into a stinky, drawn out, never ending, self glorifying, head bashing conversation.
Walk away for health purposes.
I congratulated a cromed turd out of courtesy. yes.
Nope, cloudy both mornings, but they'll be others to watch.
i missed it too
oh well, stars are out now, huh?
Yes, and they are beautiful enough even without meteors enhancing their light.
Yes, you were very curteous when you thought I had the same belief as you. When you realized I didn't have the same belief, you turned back to your old ways in protection of faith.
Not really, there were hours of relentless damage to others before I called you what you are.
I thought the bible teaches you to forgive and turn the other cheek.
You are not setting a good Christian example.
i have no idea. what you believe is your business, no one elses. if you want to share your beliefs, last time i checked, your allowed.
People get entirely too bent out of shape on these forums. Everyone has the right to be thinking their own thoughts about how to believe. Whatever it is that brings you closer to your higher power is fine! Don't let the negative responses you may encounter deter you from what you perceive to be your mission in life. Carry on!
I said this on your thread (I think maybe you and I were the only ones who read it), but just have to say it again, then maybe move on to other things:
I feel really bad for people who were duped. Some complained afterward about not thinking it was realistic for them to have to have read the whole thread, and I agree. But it was fascinating to me that several offering their heart-felt congrats on your presumed conversion did not see the evidence above and below their multiple posts. WTF? Qat, stl, tth, one of those guys posted portions of your hub comments to me and Valerie, which spelled out pretty clearly what was going on. I’m just flabbergasted. So how many posters read very little besides their own posts?!
What is goin on boys n girls?
Friends , no friends
Thanksgiving around the corner , shame on you
Waves n blows kisses to fellow hubberoo's
Eventually his world will come apart and he will search for GOD.
Crazd just visited one of my recipe hubs and left an upbeat message.
I'm trying so hard not to jump in because I have friends on both sides of this mess.
Someone asked earlier if any non-believers were offended.
I can only speak for myself, but I did not see anything offensive from the OP in that forum. Poor taste, sure. But it was meant to be challenging.
However, seeing some of my friends get offended bothered me. I did not post, because while I don't like seeing people upset, I also do not quite understand why it happened.
I get that the lying offended people who hold their belief sacred. No argument there whatsoever from me.
But the very context of the forum itself was a giant honking red flag. The statements of faith were so brief and generic that I had a hard time seeing others put so much weight on them.
I think some people got tricked because they skipped around, ducked in and out, without reading the entire thread. This makes sense to me. By the same token though, if I was one who was participating without understanding the forum, I would not feel right about claiming myself to be a victim of it. Personally, the best I could do in that situation would be to say, My bad. Carry on. I'd be plenty embarrassed, but that would be on me, not the OP.
I want to say, get a thicker skin. An attack against a belief is NOT an attack against a believer.
If the tables were turned, if a believer proclaimed him or herself to be a newly converted atheist, I would be welcoming and supportive. If that person then turned out to be lying, to see how I would react, I would not get personally vindictive. Especially in the context of this particular forum. Irritated, eyes rolling a bit, but not out right angry.
I've followed this drama start to finish, and I just don't see a personal attack. It was an ugly prank, but consider the OP...
That was masterfully written. Well said. Well done. I'd fan you again if I could. You and yoshi.
rmc, I would fan you and yoshi again as well if I could.
Reasonable minds tried to make sense of this, tried to warn, and tried to soften the blow.
I opened the door several times, but backed right back out
I was not understanding why folks were getting offended. (That's on me, I'm a skeptic so of course I do not react the same way as a believer.)
I did not want to throw flames on the fire, and I certainly did not want to say something that would further offend my friends. So I bowed out and took the time to figure out what the knot in my stomach was telling me.
Sometimes it's hard to translate my knot. I don't see a problem, but I feel tension anyway...
So, that was my translation.
From this saga, some folks have earned respect from me. Others have lost my respect. Which and who do not matter. I will not be un-fanning anyone.
All in all, the forum was a fascinating study. I saw the unexpected in many places. I was saying. HUH?!? at various points.
I was sad to see Yoshi frown
Good night all, find peace and take good care.
*hugs* all around.
religious debate is always about drama. it was a pathetic prank.
it's like a code or a way of life. it's not surprising why people get offended by it.
"take away the life lie of an average man and you take his life away." - henrik ibsen
Very well written. Thank You for the detailed explanation. Thanks even more for your honesty.
I thought the whole thing was a joke - I didn't think Marine had had such a Joycean epiphany. I hate that Crazd was hurt. I really like her!
Hello habee, I don't know what a Joycean epiphany without using google.. I don't have a college education and slept through most of highschool. Now the believers can call me retarded to discredit more of what I say. They already like to read my profile and underestimate me because I don't have any college degrees. Maybe this is why so many were tricked. Their faith taught them they were smarter than me because my belief differs from them and I have no college degrees, not to add, I am yonger than most that fell for my faith experiment. Age and titles aren't everything.
Thanks for your responses wyanjen. Sounds like we're on the same page.
Agree habee. As I've said, I didn't believe the conversion, not for 1 second. I guess that was the expected response from non-believers.
habee, I just posted for Crazd in the Family forum. Looks like her "Papa" will not make it through the night.
it's funny, when you tell someone that he's full of shnit he gets offended because he knows it's true. but if you tell someone that's not full of shnit that he is full of shnit he doesn't get offended. is it possibly the same for religious people? do they get offended when non believers tell them that they are full of it because they are? if they were not full of it then they won't have any reason to get offended right?
As you know, the logical mind can separate emotions from belief knowing that emotions contradict or intervene logic. When the emotional glue that holds their faith together is challenged, it is only logical that they will have an emotional reaction in protection of faith.
I'll cut to the chase. The thread in question obviously hurt some trusting people who were genuinely happy for you. To justify the thread by calling it an "experiment" is ridiculous. There's no justification for setting people up and then having them feel foolish and betrayed over a difference in strong and emotionally-charged personal beliefs.
Even if that wasn't your intention, it's still wrong.
FYI, I'm not a "believer". In fact, I've argued against many things Christians and other religious groups believe. But I try hard to be respectful. And if I fail, I apologize.
What you did was disrespectful though you may not have intended it to be. But the fact remains people were unnecessarily hurt and played for fools.
Marines are supposed to be honorable. You owe those people an apology, marine. Do the honorable thing.
P.S. Einstein was a pretty logical fellow, wouldn't you agree? Yet he believed in God. I'm not saying that means he was right -- or wrong. It's just food for thought.
Thank You for your honesty. It was wrong because you morally think it was wrong.
What is more cruel, my faith experiment or me making a believer think and question things of their religious/governent created false faith to control people through a 1 belief system?
Actually, Marines are are taught to be indivdiduals and leaders when they accept after learning to follow. An individual doesn't strive to please the crowd. It is much harder to disagree with the mobb than it is to agree.
I never read where Einstein said he believed the bible god. A logical mind can believe in the idea of a creator without believing the bible. The bible contradicts logic by being based on faith.
No. Common sense and common decency tell me it's wrong. There's no need to turn this into a morals debate; it's not a complex matter.
Actually, they're both cruel and the latter borders on delusionary.
Your "faith experiment" didn't prove anything. It doesn't even make sense. (See the Einstein comments below) But it did hurt people.
Your thread is more of a trust experiment, not faith. (equally foolish experiment though) People trusted you to be honest; trusted you to tell the truth. They simply gave you the benefit of the doubt -- even though doubt clearly existed. They chose trust over doubt.
There's no room for doubt in faith.
Now, come on. You're kidding yourself if you think you have the power, the right or the obligation to "make" anyone think or question anything, let alone their personal beliefs.
They make their points, you make yours. Agree, agree to disagree, or disagree and go away mad. But don't play them for fools and then take a bow.
All well and good to an extent. We can debate it at length another time. Let's stay on topic for now. And what I said was that the Marines have a code of honor.
Are you telling me what you did was honorable?
The point was that simply that he believed in something that cannot be proven and has no logic to support it.
A. The universe exists.
B. There is no proof of how/when/why it came into existence.
-- so --
C. There is no proof, ergo God (a creator) must exist?
That's not logic.
It's only a theory, a possibility. The big bang theory is another possibility and there's no mention of an entity/god/creator as the source.
What Einstein had was -- brace yourself -- faith. He believed God existed even though he had no proof.
Per Merriam Webster, definition 2.b.1 --
faith: a firm belief in something that has no proof
lol my faith experiment didn't prove anything to you because you refuse to learn anything.
Trust over doubt? That would be faith. Brilliant aren't you?
You are right, there is no doubt in faith. That was proven on the thread as well. The only doubt is in logic.
Thanks for defining to me what a Marine is. How long was you a Marine? I must not have caught that part.
The point of Einstein is you wanted me to believe he believed the bible God cause you assumed I have never read his religious belief. No logic in your faithful assumptions.
Again, you didn't comprehend my point. I said a logical mind can believe in a creator. A logical mind cannot believe the bible when the bible contradicts logic. Did you forget to read this part before you started typing your response of a book?
Sorry, but your experiment proved nothing. Zero.
Wait! I take that back. It inadvertently proved something about you as a person. And it wasn't flattering. Please don't continue embarrassing yourself.
I suspected you wouldn't understand the difference between trust and faith. Your sarcasm puts an exclamation point on it. But it doesn't matter. The point remains that Einstein, a very logical mind, believed in something for which there is no proof. That's an example of faith by definition.
Your insistence that logic and faith (in the bible, a creator, flying saucers, elves or anything else) can't co-exist in a "logical mind" is pure rubbish.
I never defined what a marine was -- but I assure you I wouldn't have used you as an example. I only said they have a code of honor. Yet you refuse to even acknowledge that. The logic behind your avoidance is clear. You might say I have faith in your intelligence.
You know, faith; a belief in something there's no proof of.
Wow! This is my only response. You clearly refuse to read or learn anything. And you try to define logic and faith!
You say Einstein was logical and believed in a faith.
This is a contradiction.
Faith = No proof.
Logic = Proof.
Good grief, learn to read. I said he had faith not that he "believed in a faith".
In other words, Einstein had both logic and faith.
Religions contradict logic. You said he was religious.
Once again, please learn to read. I never said he was religious.
I quoted Einstein as saying this about himself: "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."
Now please read this slowly or have an adult read it to you because I'm getting tired of explaining it to you:
Einstein had a logical mind. Einstein had faith that a god/creator/whatever existed. Therefore, both logic and faith existed in Einstein's logical mind. You insist logic and faith cannot co-exist in a logical mind. You're wrong.
I've wasted far too much time on you. See ya.
it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."
Are you serious?
You are wrong, you have faith you are right with no understanding of logic and faith.
Anyone that claims to be religious or have religious belief is basing the belief on faith. Not logic.
Maybe if believers wouldn't have titled me with PTSD and mental disorders for having an individual mind and belief that differed from theirs, I wouldn't have had to pull my experiment.
They brought this on themselves. I appologize to any friendships I ended. It was the only way to explain how faith works. If I strived to make everyone happy, I would believe and go along in my life to please the majority and everyone else. I appologize that my individual mind contradicts a religious/government taught faith.
I wonder when these religious debate threads will be omitted from our hubtivity, cos I find them totally annoying!
There is a lot to learn from the religious forum as there is from anything.
The most important thing to learn is to take an outside perspective and see the separatism that religion causes.
If religion created unity, so many people wouldn't disagree and argue. It only creates unity to the religious faithful while it separates those with individual belief.
Sure, but if I never see it in my hubtivity, then I'll be able to not see it everyday and every hour and that to me is better than having a perspective on something that I and others don't really care about or get fed up with long forum threads that don't really add anything new to say, it's all regurtitated!
How can 1 "individual" upset so many biblical believers?
Because they let the individual upset them. You tested their faith. You also knew what buttons to press. Christian faith is, in my opinion a one to one relationship. You found it based on "group think" and exposed it. Was it rude? Probably so, but I would say to those offended to look inward vice outward.
What I found amazing by all of this was not that you did it, but how much response it got. Just goes to show, some people are leaders and some are followers.
I don't think you and I should be in here, seems something has gone amiss...everyone is mad or offened or stubborn...lets find one of our fun party threads..or start a new one..
I am happy. The believers aren't. They forgot where the belief book teaches forgiveness. Sounds hypocritical to me.
Maybe hand out free pacifiers:D
Seriously, though, everyone is entitled to believe as they like . . . and everyone needs a good release now and then:)
I would like your opinion on something please. Do we learn more from debate or agreement?
What was the topic again?
Oh yeah. Just like a single grain of sand can move the world, one individual can upset so many Bible believers because we just have that effect on people. And it's not just believers. We all have emotional triggers and we're all capable of triggering others'.
Yes, I agree with that! Now I don't have a response because you didn't give me a reason to argue. So, I agree with you. So, which do we learn more from? Agreement or debate?
Debate will allow you to learn about a person's fears, insecurities and even their strengths, but I think agreement puts you in a better frame of mind to learn.
I agreed until you said agreement puts you in a better frame of mind. You can maintain the same frame of mind in agreement and disagreement when you see how they both operate. Agreement operates in good emotions, Disagreement operates in bad emotions.
Disagreement can do more when you separate individual emotions to find logic.
comment- Anyone else noticed marine’s inability to apologize? He intentionally spells it wrong(appologize) He’s still playing games. Believers and nonbelievers ignore him. Protect your pride-faith marine! You can still go lower.
I knw i came to rescue you..... lets get out while the going is good xxxxxxx
@ Sara- To be honest if you read his work Einstein believed in a creator God not on faith, but what he found in science. He did not believe in a personal God. He was more a pantheist or diest.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
The truth hurts doesn't it? Protect the faith!
I know. I'm a pantheist.
Anyway, you have to read a lot of what Einstein wrote about God to understand the extent of his belief (faith) and his thoughts on God. I can find quotes that almost make him sound like a fundamentalist! And then there are quotes that almost contradict themselves like:
"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." (Albert Einstein)
Regardless, I think we're arguing semantics. What we're talking about is a belief in an entity without proof one exists.
That is, faith that there's a "god" (personal or not, creator, entity or whatever word you prefer) even though there's no proof.
That's the definition of faith. Not logic.
I think it’s more interpretation of facts not faith over logic.
The fact is the universe exist, and incredibly complex, and extremely fine tuned(1 cell is as complex as New York City)
You can either use logic to say nothing created everything(0+0=1), matter is eternal(disproved) or there is a uncaused caused created everything(now who that God is another matter) either way logic and faith are required. I know I'm a theist.
Sara, I forgot to answer the question on honor.
Do I think what I did was honorable? Honor comes at a price.
Keep underestimating me in your comments. You make my responses easy.
Marine, I agree with you - some of the smartest people I know have never stepped foot inside a college. Also, please don't lump all "believers" together. I'm a Christian but have never felt or expressed any ill will toward you.
Thank You. I sincerely appoligize if I offended you. Thanks for your honesty and open mind. I respect anyone that doesn't allow faith to close their mind. I don't agree with your belief because I believe it is separatist, but I would say you are an excellent example to others of your faith.
Hold it time out...I interupt this thread for a reality check!
Marine Always...are you now conversing about mutual respect...
with other Hubbers...if that don't beat all the craziest stuff you have done...now your talking about "Mutual Respect"...Please!?
Please...Don't let Mr. Marine Always here...sound too noble. He wants to make everything appear like a joke...to make himself be able to say things like: logic, faith, and separatist. Which is all fine and good...say it till the cows come home.
I have never gotten into a "fight" on Hub Pages Forum in the Religion Section. But...what I did was be involved in a stupid charade. A lie that was perpetuated to make it sound like some thing that I feel is noble and good thing...saying "I am saved" ...and other catch phrases...then tell you it was an experiment..and that you were forewarned...and then thank you for congratulating him.
What a pile of horse man_re...! I still don't know how he is so proud of this...stupid stunt. But hey...Let him have his say...which he has...over and over and over and over and over.
Hey...Marine Always...we get it: faith, logic, separatists, we're dumb, your smart, blah, blah, blah...Just try not to lie to folks and then tell them they are welcome for the free education...like you did to Crazd...and expect them to think you are the smartest thing since the inventor of the mosquito net...and then expect them to like it!
you have nailed it on the head. I have not seen a true apology to anyone from him. I don't want one. I just want to see this self righteous bs come to and end.
Is this how your faith teaches you to respond? I thought it teaches forgiveness and to turn the other cheek. I am honest with those that are honest with me. How much honesty is in the religious when most of them are hypocrites?
What you don't get is that they are truthful to themselves and what they believe. Just because I or you find the basis for the beliefs not very well thought out, it doesn't make them liars.
Hypocrisy is part of the Christian teaching. Though it warns against it, it also states clear as day that no one in the world is possess the ability to be non hypocritical.
Literally, you were not honest with them... hypocrite anyone?
If they are truthful to themselves, why do they fear to admit they are separatists? Why do they lie to protect faith? Why do they need faith if they used logic? Their belief is a separatist belief system, thats the logic, no matter how much faith you have in them. The point wasn't to be honest on the thread now was it.
Oy, because they don't know they are lying. Ugh Marine.
This is what faith does when someone allows it to take control. It overpowers logic. Should someone point this out to them in efforts of equality or let them continue to have faith in a separatist belief? It is much easier to sit on the sidelines letting someone to remain in bliss than it is to create self awareness to them that they are in a separatist belief.
I guess you don't see that you play the same game. You call them separatist but you don't accept them. How much better you are over them right? Your logic is no more valid then theirs unless you are willing to accept them the way they are regardless of how much you disagree.
You intentionally mislead or lied to them. You used deceit as your weapon of truth. Your logic is flawed, care to be humbled? This is what you want from them right?
You say they have been indoctrinated, taught a lie as the truth. You insist it makes them purposeful liars. That they use it to control. Some see through the crap and continue to use deception to control, thus we have most the christian population preaching a lie as the truth (not really their fault) but forcing them to accept your pov is no more valid then them trying to get you to accept theirs.
You say don't push your beliefs on me. You are not forced to accept them by any means. But you are forcefully trying to get them to accept yous. Did you ever think that maybe they just don't like 'you'.
In other words, I have met people from all different cultures and beliefs. Some heavily religious, others worse then Mark and basically, what it comes down to is whether or not I like the person... not what they believe.
Madam, we disagree on most things, but I must say, Brava!
Wow, what nonsense. How many assumptions can you make about me. Where did I say I was better than them? Where did I say I was smarter than them? My belief doesn't require separatistism or followers. There is a big difference between me and them. I am not faith dependent of an illusional belief.
I have forgiven them for lashing out and ganging up on me before and after the thread. How many have forgiven me? Who is the real hypocrite?
Do you accept separatism? This is the problem in the world. People are too accepting of what is messed up and are scared to speak up. I accept them, I do not accept their separatist belief system along with any other.
The problem ... as I plainly see it ... is you aren't offering proof, you're demanding change ... and not too many people want to change.
Okay ... so we're dealing with pack mentality here. All Christians grouped in little thought zoos (to paraphrase your thoughts). Let's examine some of the childhood teachings and how dangerous they are.
Thou shalt not kill! Really? We need to teach our kids that? Considering the number of people who murder one another, I suppose we do. We'll let that one slide.
Treat others as you would want yourself to be treated! Ah ... classic pack mentality, created to make everyone play nice with one another ... is that such a bad thing?
Honor thy mother and father! Yeah, right! If kids did this parents would be so much less stressed ... evidently the pack doesn't program our children as much as we think, or they might learn this one.
Love the neighbor! Yeah, well I hate my neighbors, but that's because they are crabby old women who look like men and complain about us constantly ... but I suppose my love for them makes them a bit more tolerable, so that one;s not so bad either.
So ... the faith farm is teaching my children to be nice and theym bozos did it to me too. Had it not been for them I coulda ended up like my younger brother *who never went to church by the way) and did nothing but constantly get into trouble growing up ... and thereafterwards.
Of course, the cult of religion could have screwed him up badly and made him into a nice kid, but when my Mom left my Dad she wouldn't have her little boy tainted by those loonies ... no sir ... she kept her little boy safe at her side, protecting him from a world he would some day feel constantly feel threatened by.
Of course, there are also those crzaed loons who give foos and shelter to the needy. Why help those who can't help themselves? Let natural selection weed out the weak, right?
Or ... oh what the heck, I'll throw this out there ... it just might be possible that religion DOES promote some good in the world and that SOME of the *group* teachings are good things to be learned.
Of course, you have your loonies in religion just as you do outside of it. A percentage of the population is insane, like it or not, so yes, there will be loonies among the religious - but that doesn't make them all insane.\
I agree that people often follow religion blindly, but only in the sense where they expect God to do things that no immortal being - superior or not - is ever going to do.
Like the woman whose toaster breaks ... She then kneels down to God and prays that his grace will fix it. Take the toaster to the repair shop sweetheart, or buy a new one! the big G is a bit busy with more important matters - war, famine, homelessness ... he could care less if you eat toast this morning.
And those people seeking miracles ... Miracles are spontaneous occurances without prior belief they will occur. You can't *find* them, they just occur.
And for those who banter over religion vs. science ... Science is the study of nature and how it works, and nature is given as any force given onto God. As such, God IS science for all who believe, and the non-believers have more to be upset with in god then religion has to be upset with science. After all, believers can say science is proof of God, but can non-believers say God is proof of science? Believers can have both, whereas non-believers are left only with what they can prove or logically infer.
So, what is wrong with people having belief? So long as that belief allows them to see - nothing! Now, when they believe blindly, as the foolish woman who thinks God will heal her toaster, then belief has went past being realistic.
We believe with our hearts and see with our minds ... only when we reverse the equation do we wind up looking like fools.
Proving logic and faith are different is one of those foolish ventures I speak of, as belief differs from logic. You can't logically explain why you chose to believe in something you can't physically see, feel, or touch ... but you don't need to ... belief comes from the desire to believe there is something more to life, which means those who don't believe accept that we already see all that there is.
Neither philosophy is wrong. Both are developed on coping with the world we live in, and for some people - coping requires belief that something greater than us gives a rat's patootie whether we survive another day. Given how difficult the world is nowadays, it's no wonder many would become angered if you took that one hope away from them. For many ... hope is all they have left.
So, I ask you ... Why should we deny another hope, when that hope doesn't come at any price from the rest of us? Why can't we allow people to believe as they will, knowing we are already comfortable with our own beliefs?
Other than humanity and compassion ... what items of worth can we give to one another? To steal hope is to drain life from a soul ... whether it be from a believer or a non-believer ... When will we learn to just let people live?
Marine Always...Let's break this down to the "nitty-gritty"...Ok...let's cut to the chase...Has someone wronged you when you were a child...did some big meanie say something religious to you and now your on a permanent warpath? Hey...you got the right to your opinion...you just don't have the right to cut down what others (or myself) believe...and expect for your supreme knowledge to prevail.
Here's a hint for you...you will never win. And the ones trying to convince you...will never win either...it's going to be a wash! But...with that said...don't come over to the other sides camp...dressed like them...and smelling like them...and expect everything to be Ok...after you toss in a grenade and then leave...laughing at them. See...it is about...what was mentioned earlier = mutual respect. I mean seriously...they teach this kind of stuff in kindergarten. What's wrong...did the other kiddies not play well with you in kindergarten?
Now...before you get on a binge of words like: separatists, logic, faith...like you like to throw around from your own your self-made pulpit on the topics. Consider that i have read a few of your posts today...and that...low and behold...the Good Lord...gave me a brain! And...I know that for everything i say..you have a counter. You are well rehearsed...but your not original in your arguments. The only thing original about you is that you are willing to stoop to lies and faking to be something your not...just to turn it around in an argument.
If I say something with the slightest hint of less than "Saint-liness"....you get to say "That's not Christian of you"! If I say that doesn't sound smart...you then pull the pity card out ...about how you didn't go to college. If I say "Faith" ....you say "Logic"...If I say where is the logic in what you say...You say where do you get "faith" from...and so on...back and forth. If I say potatoe...you say pototoe...and it goes on forever from there. You really are well entrenched with the counter positions...I must say. And, I get the feeling you are happiest right there in the middle of all your counter-stances...andin an argument. Which brings me to my lead-in point....Did some big meanie wrong you as a child and say something about religion that you didn't like?
I'll wait for your completed counter-move. The one where you will obviously make everything I just said sound irrelevant to your whole way of thinking....and show me how wrong I am.
...AND I love your big ol' dog! I have 2 Great Danes. Aren't huge furkids the greatest?!
One of my big boys drools a little after drinking water. The other one NEVEr drools. Thank goodness!
he won't let it go. expect 40 more justifying posts to follow. along with a half dozen of his cronies.
I guess there is only so much Christ bashing one can take. Saddly we fail to uphold a character that Jesus may expect. but you have NO rules. I'm not jealous- but I think you know that and take the easy road.
It's truly sad. As I have always said - the wall of pride shall always get thicker when one feels offended. Learning to live and let live, intelligently, is the key to all these forums.
Time for a mug of cocoa....
Is it your belief or faith that has brought you to insinutate that those who are in the forums are Unintelligently stipulating facts, logic or their own individual belief?
Wow, you've much contention in your heart. I state it when a conversation is apparently taking an all too familiar road of taking shots at others. That's all. Pride leads the way of tearing down other people you do now. The Hubbers are very intelligent and are worthy of expressing their thoughts, however, as with all people more thought should be put into what should be said rather than what one wants to say in order to reap an emotional response. I hold no grudge against anyone, even you. I learn from you as I do all others. The problem is in making the most "productive" time while logged on and posting responses to people. STOP! LEARN! and understand before we start biting words with one another.
Thanks for your time...
A person who relies upon rationality to the complete exclusion o emotion or the other way around generally has problems.
Do you deny that there is any occasion when an emotional response is entirely reasonable, rational?
A reasonable person wants to know truth and trusts people who he or she knows to be truthful. When such a person is duped, it is reasonable that he or she will not want that to happen again, will seek to discourage continued deceitfulness, and will take the deceit as evidence that the person who has duped him or her is not trustworthy.
Is it a faithful assumption or logic that when a person is dishonest once, they will be dihonest all the time?
There are many occasions when emotions are good. Just not in protection of faith. If it was a logical belief, it wouldn't need to be protected since logic doesn't have emotions does it?
I have faith in my family, not my belief. My family doesn't require faith, however I choose to have faith in them.
The real issue at hand is what marine has failed to impress upon anyone. and that was his theory that he pushed for 2 months. Nobody agreed with him for obvious reasons and so anything from that point has been retaliation.
"Marine," you don't get a single point. My Faith needs no protection. However, the people who were genuinely excited about something really wonderful happening to you, the people you lied to and let down- they are another matter. People need protection from liars.
Is group taught faith based on truth or lies?
I don't understand what you've got so much against separatism, since you are so intent on separating yourself from "group belief."
Also, truth is absolute. Anything else is just opinion or subjective speculation at best.
Was I born individual or to a group? It is the group belief that separates the individual so the individual doesn't separate the group belief and faith.
Nothing is absolute unless you have faith and believe it as absolute.
That's utter baloney. Does believing that the universe was created in only six literal 24 hour rotations of the earth make it so?
If you had faith and believed it so, yes, it would be true to you.
Nonsense. It wouldn't be objective reality.
How much logic is in your philisophical term that doesn't have a clear definition? Is that a faith based term or a logical term? Everything you have faith in is objective reality when all could be an illusion and nothing is absolute.
So you counter with the same basic stuff to try to make the one who wrote to you look foolish...and thus draw anyone that agrees to your style of thinking...into seeing how foolish the other side truly is...? Is there a tactic manual on this...or are you just a natural? Or was that too emotional...hence emotional is "faith-based"...OOps...I said "faith-based" first...I lose...I'm the weaker one!
You write a disrespectful comments and expect a respectful answer?
What was disrespectful....was it like lying?
It took a lie to expose the emotions that hold the faith together.
So you HAD to lie to show everyone how bad they are?
Nope, I had to lie to show how emotions operate with faith. An emotional reaction isn't the same as a logical reaction. You know this from experience. Who took the bait harder, the logical or the faithful?
Please ...tell me what i learned from experience...I learned that you lied...that's what I learned...O' great teacher ...of us poor simple minded fools...who need the superior you...to teach us a lesson in our bad ways!
More emotional based comments or is this your idea of logic?
I never said I was superior. I believe in equality. Yours is the belief that teaches you are superior and favored for your belief. My belief isn't separatist. Just call me the devil and move on to prevent a logical conversation.
Here's where you ultimately fail in your "logic"...you move to pre-judge me on a wide basis of your personal beliefs. You are just as guilty of judging others as they are of you. You know nothing of me...and I of you. But, I...have only addressed you from what I have seen you type. I made no other preconcieved notions of what you believe...other than the few I have witnessed...Whereas you...PREJUDGED! You like to PREJUDGE don't you...it helps you feel smarter...like your holding all the cards to the deck!
I know the psychology of your belief system. It is built on faith and emotions, not logic. How do I know your belief system? By your emotional reaction from me offending your faith. It's not assuming when it is logically correct. Again, did you have an emotional reaction or a logical reaction? When you title yourself in a group belief, you expose your cards.
You say I show emotion...no big deal in that. it comes with the human condition...matter of fact by exposing your same few words in a discussion and trying to make them sound so good.You show that there is no logic in any of your explanations!
Thats because you have faith there isn't. Protect the faith!
Hey...I got'ta good one for ya'...of course I'll protect my faith...duh? You know "faith" can mean alot of different things to alot of different folks...Just what do you mean "LOGICALLY"...when you throw out these stupid words in your banter. Are you supposed to use these powerful words...and then I back down. Am I doing this wrong...was i suppose to react real strange and vengeful to counter you saying "faith". EEWW...I got a catch word too...Are you ready for it..."Stumped"!
As in you're finer points are officially "STUMPED"!
Why do you feel the need to protect your faith?
Why do you feel the desperate need to defend your opinions to the point of lying to make a point?
Why do you feel the need to avoid faith protecting questions before answering previous ones?
Why do you feel the need to ask so many questions in the first place? Do you honestly think that anything I tell you...will appease your endless amount of questions? What do you want me to tell you of "faith protection"...I honestly never heard those two words put together before...You made that up didn't you?
We learn from asking questions. Is this new knowledge to you? Are you offended by questions? I know, they do require you to think. I want you analyze why you protect your faith and write the answer. It is your faith, you don't know why you protect it?
I thought you said a few posts back...that you don't like to think. So...why are you telling me i should? That seems very one-sided of you...or did you forget you said that. i know it is very hard to keep track of lies. That is why it is better to tell the truth. "It takes less memory to remember the truth than it does lies..." That is what my MaMa always said. I guess you've been too busy asking questions to remember all the things you have been saying all along. That would then make them BS...and I know your not full of that.
I don't like to think, it's stressful. I would rather have a group taught faith like yourself so I don't have to think about anything. It would be much more blissful.
Awesome...that is so cool how you bring powerful words together: Separatists Beliefs, Faith Protection, and now three words combined into one: group taught faith. Gee...I must be a mindless squirrel...for having anything remotely associated with those powerful words. Oh my goodness...your lines get weaker and weaker. What you got next...MA...I know you can come up with this "malarchy" all night. Is this why your threads go on and on...you keep coming up with the same foolishness?
Marine ... I think it's time to give it a rest.
You get angry with everyone for not listening to you, but you have had the floor for several days now and haven't changed one person's opinion ... which should tell you that you never will.
People's beliefs are too complicated to just throw them aside for someone elses, regardless of how much proof you might offer.
Proof of my point: I have debated several times with Thetruthhurts and Spiderpam that evolution is real while they argue that evolution is a lie. Now, I could have continued that debate, allowing it to never end, but I realized something ... I wasn't about to convert them any more than they were about to convert me. I also realized something else, when we weren't talking about evolution we all got along just fine.
Now, I could have taken the high road and never let it go (as you do here) or kept my beliefs private and talked to them about something else ... which I have started to do with The truth hurts - sadly, I'm not usually online when Spiderpam is, so I don't get much of a chance to talk to her live.
Back to the chase ... I have found that I get along with Thetruthhurts ... and actually quite well ... when we discusss other issues ... to the point where I will keep evolution to myself.
Even IF I could convert someone into believing in evolution, what really would I have scored?
You see, Marine, that's the point you keep missing. Making people see your point won't convert them to it ... and even if it could, then you still would be left with nothing gained.
Your problem isn't the belief of others ... it's the fact that others believe differently than you and are vocal about it.
If you want people to be individuals, then even YOU must let go of any want for control. And while you strongly believe you are against control, wanting them to agree with your ideals is actually a form of control ... let it go ...
I'd also like to propose a gaping hole in your logic ... religion doesn't lead people ... religion gathers people who want to be led. Show me where an adult is dragged off to church. Fact is, they aren't ... they go willingly ... that's free will.
And do they all think with one mind? Poll any congregation on a topic and you will be surprised to see they all believe differently.
So, enough about logic, control, and individualism - sadly, you know nothing of these things and continue to prove that as you keep forcing this point upon everyone (fighting against individualism for others), to force them to understand (which is control) with the hope you will make them see things differently (hopelessly illogical).
As such, you have become the one thing your message says must be removed ... So I would suggest sitting down with the baby and the St Bernard and recognize the message each one offers.
As you might not know ... a baby represents innocence and a dog represents loyalty. As such, end this argument by taking on their traits and becoming a better (and more respectable) person in the process.
If you want to be taken seriously, change yourself ... not others ... and you will see a difference. It's not about winning and it's not about selling out ... it's about walking into a room full of strangers and behaving like someone all would like to get to know better. And that doesn't mean lying about yourself ... it means pushing forward those characteristics about yourself that you consider your strengths and showing a genuine interest in the strengths of others.
As a Marine, you've no doubt lived through far worse ... So, care to give it a try?
you try to analyze me and can't analyze your own belief to understand the bible and evolution contradict each other. lol try again. Analyze your own belief before you try to analyze mine. My belief isn't based from the bible. It's based from individual logic. Nice book.
Nice try, Marine ... but my beliefs don't stem from a book. While I did go to church when I was a kid, I grew up and realized my thoughts were too deep on religion to be all contained within a book.
My belief is also based on individual logic, and I fully understand that creation and evolution only bump heads when taken literally instead of spiritually, which is how this individual chooses to see Genesis.
As for analyzing your belief ... I don't need to, as you have been forcing it upon everyone for the past three days, leaving nothing left to analyze.
I'll break it down for you ...
People post things on the religious forums you disagree with. You post your own views, but they gang up on you and tell you that you are all wrong and that you need to read the Bible more. This makes you frustrated because you want your beliefs to count as much as theirs, but they won't go with anything you say.
As such, you grow determined to make them look foolish so you can prove they are unworthy of dictating the pace on the religious forum, hoping this will make people more receptive to listening to your views.
I understand completely ... I also understand that continuing on like this lowers the credibility base you had been building prior to all of this. Prior to today, some refused to hear what you had to say ... are you so willing to prove your point that you will force the ones away who actually listened?
Because, as I see it, you are only serving to alienate yourself further if you continue down this path. Just agree to disagree and go back to the frivolous and fun conversations we all used to have together ... you know as well as I do, that's what this forum really needs right now ... time to heal.
Sorry, Marine. Agree with Yoshi to some extent. This 'debate,' you know, only goes so far as far as learning anything...and I kind of think you have been influenced maybe a bit too much by some of the regulars on the forum, beyond reasonably. Mark Knowles and Earnesthub, for instance, really have no problem with 'believers' or any kind of theists who do not proselytize.
Also, i.e, evolution and belief in a deity are not mutually exclusive. Everything that Sara Tonyn said was logical, but you missed her point (faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, either).
There is a difference between 'Christianists' and Christians...or any other kind of rational theist. It is also a person's protected right in this country to believe and/or worship as one would like.
You already know I respect you...but ya know, reading up on some of this stuff might help.
OK. Exiting this place now. No harm intended!
objective- existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
It exists free of independent thoughts, desires, will or wishes.
Reality is all knowable.
How is it proven reality is not an illusion? Every individual has a different idea of reality.
Whoops...ya' just turned on one of your own...is nothing or no one sacred to you...Marine Always...I can't believe you could turn on folks like that...!
Because it's all knowable. The knowledge, the objects and the things we can identify as real.
It's called an objective reality, that deals in factual truths.
Remember, Truth is absolute, when in existence, in reality.
If a truth is unknown, then it is not yet part of our reality. Therefore, doesn't exist. Only when it becomes known does it become part of reality.
I'm still confused on your idea. What is an example of truth or reality? How can any truth be absolute when everyone has a different truth?
TRUTH- Every human being has a consciousness, a conscience and a sub-consciousness.
Reality is everything they know that is real.
If someone has a different truth, then obviously, one is wrong.
Truth isn't a perception or perceived notion. You do realize that. The Human Race basis it's existence on evidence, a.k.a. factual truths.
Any MORAL action that is a benefit to the human organism or to society is deemed Good or Right.
Any IMMORAL action that is harmful to the human organism or to society is deemed Bad or Wrong.
These are two absolutes in Life. These are truth.
Ty for explaining. I still have questions. When defining moral action, morals can be taught or untaught. If we all had the same idea of moral truths, why do some countries have death penalties and others don't if it is moral truth to everyone that killing is contradiction to life?
You know what? I'd love to get into it with, but politics and government and the church are altruistic idea system so to control the people, on the belief notion that each and ever human being MUST answer to a higher power, be it government or GOD(religion). They HAD to be controlled, otherwise there would be Chaos.
Instead of teaching each person of what these two absolutes are? We have - religion replaces commandments and conjecture -and government uses Laws and police, to maintain control.
People can not be trusted to do what is right morally, so they need to be controlled. The reason you have people with different morals than other people is because neither have been told the truth.
There is no such thing as a "different truth."
It boils down to basic logic. A is A.
The only thing everyone has is different interpretations of or opinions regarding the truth.
So, which is more dependable in finding truth? Faith or logic?
Neither is more dependable, actually, because as has already been pointed out to you, it is possible for an argument to be logical and yet be unsound if any of the premises are false. Logic is only a tool.
Faith is trust and can also be misguided- like any trust in a known liar would be. For all your talk, you don't seem to demonstrate by your arguments much faith, much trust, in logic, or I would see more demonstrated in your arguments.
Here's an example of how Faith can actually be bolstered by logic, however. If someone makes a claim you find outrageous, they are either lying, deluded, or telling the truth. If all known evidence indicates the person is honest and of sound mind, the only logical option is to, unless further evidence turns up, have faith that the person is speaking the truth.
(With much thanks to C.S. Lewis there!)
And here's where logic undoes you. Separatists by definition wish to break from the group, which actually makes individualism the ultimate in separatism- and makes you, who decry separatism but laud individualism, either a hypocrite or someone who doesn't know what you're talking about. You also brand religion in general as "group belief."
Separatism is only a group belief if the separating faction remains a group and doesn't splinter any further after making the break. So some separatist beliefs happen to be group beliefs, but most group beliefs do not encourage separatism.
So the way you use separatism and group belief interchangeably is contradictory and illogical.
lol keep scrambling.
Protect your separatist faith. "you are with me or against me" Jesus said it, I didn't.
Gross misinterpretation of those words. Just as the 'Christianists' do. Join them?
I hope you are just joking around and having fun here, Marine...otherwise, ?.
Actually, Jesus said, "whoever is not against you is for you." Quite different. You can look that up for yourself. Luke 9:50.
And is my Faith separatist or group belief? Because the terms are not synonymous.
He who is not with me is against me
The quote you listed and the one I listed say the same things, just worded differently. Keep trying to protect your faith.
You could not possibly logically come to that conclusion without throwing out important things like context. Luke 9:50 was addressing the matter of someone who wasn't one of the Apostles but was nonetheless working genuine miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus said, "Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you." Doesn't seem too much like advocating separatist group belief or whatever nonsense there.
Matthew 12: 22-32 addresses the matter of slander and blasphemy against God. Different problem, different context, different point. Still, "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters," (the full verse 30 which I notice you found inconvenient to post in its entirety) also discourages separatism.
for the sake of repetiveness, please stop this marine. please.
Maybe it's the PTSD the offended believers diagnosed me with. They are good at pretending to be doctors when they get their feelings hurt.
Well...I ain't touching that one...I know for the sake of decency of those who have suffered that...and i pray that ain't you...that you would not bring that into a discussion.
That's the truth...I have witnessed that myself...but like on his other thread...you just don't play like that...some things are just serious...and you don't screw with them!
To the emotionally hurt crybabies, why do you keep reading what I have to say? So you have more to cry and complain about?
T...you made me laugh...wasn't expecting that for an answer...
How can 1 "individual" upset so many biblical believers?
Did he leave...its been fifteen minutes...i do hope he wasn't upset
Yes, I am crying. I'm very hurt that im not dependent on people agreeing with me.
What no more followers in your self-proclaimed "logic" group?
My belief doesn't require followers, your Jesus does though.
You are good at the bait and switch...I'll give you that much. But what do you understand of Jesus?
I read the same bible you did. He is a story book of miracles to provide faith of a separatist belief if you accept him as the son of god and ask him to forgive you for your sins. He promises a rewarding afterlife in heaven to capture believers faith. He also has the famous separatist quote, "you are with me, or against me".
Gee...everything i ever read...he was inviting all...but you got the whole bible figured out...along with all your "logic" Wow...you are an incredibly well versed individual...You could like...teach the masses...all kinds of things....
Well, Marine ... You're looking for an interested audience and I'm looking for an interesting conversation. As such, at this point we must take separate paths.
Good luck ... and may you figure it all out before the knowledge will be of no use to you ...
I don't know what can be more separatist ,that what marinealways is doing.
Your quietness speaks volumes Marine Always...You Lied on something you shouldn't have. I do not intend to set you straight in my beliefs. I entered this discussion to see if you knew what you were talking about. To see if you had a right to go on another thread and spew lies...and tell people that they were welcome for the free education. So...far the only one around here that has any needs for education is yourself. I know you will jump on here...and get the last word...even start this thread back up again... (or another one)...But my being on here was to thrash out the lie you pulled on the other one...nothing more...nothing less.
There ain't nothing wrong with banter or opinions...All BS aside....there is something wrong with deceit...you probably can't fugure it out...amidst all your questions...but not all folks are attacking your views...if they don't agree with them.
And for God's sake...don't lie to people about something that is very important to them...and treat it like it was a joke! Geez...Even Marines are taught to stand down some times...to survive and fight another day...You can't win all the battles...all the time. It's a natural fact of life...I thought they would have taught you that...? That's right...you don't follow groups...I bet you did in the Marine Corp...I surely bet you followed with the group...there!
by SEEKER OF TRUTH575 years ago
This is only a forum to vomit your refuse, as no one will listen to you in the real world.
by Mahaveer Sanglikar5 months ago
Many believers like to say that Atheists should prove that there is no God. Believers should know that existence has to be proved, not the non-existence. If a thing exists, it is possible to prove its existence. So...
by GA Anderson2 years ago
OMG! (the "G" stands for Gawd, not God) - what is with these athiests?I am not a youngster. And I am not a believer. But I am envious of the serenity true believers appear to find in their life.Now... don't...
by Alan3 months ago
Is it possible for you to "believe in" god, even though you know that god does not actually exist, except in your mind?
by Motown2Chitown3 years ago
To believers and unbelievers alike - what makes you respect someone whose religious beliefs are entirely different from yours - to the point that you find them silly or nonsensical? Beyond respect even, what makes...
by FootballNut8 weeks ago
Let's look at the things that kill us as PEOPLE in life:Vehicles (man made)Our diets (man made foods)Fighting (man made wars)Illnesses (which are tied to our diets, ie heart attacks, cancer and the likes)Age (numerical...
Copyright © 2017 HubPages Inc. and respective owners.
Other product and company names shown may be trademarks of their respective owners.
HubPages® is a registered Service Mark of HubPages, Inc.
HubPages and Hubbers (authors) may earn revenue on this page based on affiliate relationships and advertisements with partners including Amazon, Google, and others.