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when will atheists stay out of a religious conversation.

  1. sooner than later profile image61
    sooner than laterposted 7 years ago

    this point was brought up by someone in another thread, but deserves its own.

    why do you need to get involved?

    1. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Why do moths come to the light? They can't help themselves.
      Lack of self control maybe. hmm
      Perhaps looking for an argument. big_smile
      NEVER to be nice or cordial though. sad

    2. 0
      thetruthhurts2009posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It's out of their control. They can't help themselves!
      How's it going sooner !

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        hey truth. Good- you?

        1. 0
          thetruthhurts2009posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          no complaints. good topic

    3. 61
      (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'm somewhat torn with that inquiry. I'm sure you don't mean it as rhetorical and that you are indeed sincerely looking for answers. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

      I'll try to voice my 2 cents if it is sincere.

      Galileo Galilei once said, "I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them."

      Ferdinand Magellan said, "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."

      My point is that if it were not for men like these with such principles in their quest for the rational and the reasonable, the church today still might believe the earth is flat.

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Here is what the bible says about the earth.

        Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth.    (He being God)

        seems our ancient ancestors knew the earth was round.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Isaiah 11:12
          12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

          Revelation 7:1
          1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

          Job 38:13
          13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

          Jeremiah 16:19
          19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

          Daniel 4:11
          11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

          "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

          "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

          Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he walks about on the vault of heaven.
              — Job 22:14

          Can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
              — Job 37:18

          The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
              — Daniel 4:11

          He who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and sets its vaulted dome over the earth.
              — Amos 9:6

          the earth is turned upside down to scatter its inhabitants.
              — Isaiah 24:1, KJV

          The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
              — Psalm 93:1

          1. underhiswings profile image59
            underhiswingsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Obviously you do not understand a couple things here and you probably do not read or understand Hebrew and it's idioms.

            Have you never seen a square inside a circle or vice versa?
            Four corners.

            http://civilwarfortifications.com/dictionary/geometric_drawing/015-004.gif

            A circle has a foundation if built from the center outwards.
            Is this hard to grasp?

            The earth being turned upside down? So what. The earth has an up and a down side, they are called North and South.

            The ends of the earth, means as far as the eye can see to the horizon.

            The world is firmly established and hangs on nothing, not hard to do.
            One does not need to hang something from something else when one can tell it where to stay by speaking.

            I could go on with more, but what for? big_smile

            1. AEvans profile image70
              AEvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Q, " The angels standing in four corners does not mean that inside the circle there was a square and since you realize that gravity holds the earth what commands the gravity so that the Earth can remain floating? When we are sleeping what commands your body to inhale and exhale when your mind is in a subconscious state? We know about oxygen and how it is formed but what truly formed it? Many of us understand theory however who gave the Scientists the minds to try to calculate it, but yet many have unanswered questions.
              So long as we walk this earth there will always be debate the question is when are all of us going to get along?

              1. 61
                (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Actually, nothing really holds the earth. Instead, the earth is "free falling" towards the sun, whose gravity is bending the space around it. And, even though the earth is falling in a straight line, the space around it has been "bent" towards the sun and the earth is following the bent path.

                We are also "free falling". You can experience this yourself by simply jumping into the air, you'll find you feel no forces acting on you as you're in the air.

                The force you feel on the bottom of your feet when you land is the force of the earths surface accelerating up towards you. It is not a force that is pulling you down, which is what Newton thought.



                Little is known about what causes gravity, we only know how it behaves. It does not appear anything is commanding it.




                We get along well under many different circumstances and scenarios. Unfortunately, religion does not appear to be one of them.

                1. AEvans profile image70
                  AEvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Which is sad I do believe but I will never understand the argument smile

                  1. Flightkeeper profile image77
                    Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    It is inexplicable AEvans and it would be pointless to try and understand.  This is the same guy who thought science started with the "scientific method". Everything prior to that, i.e. Aristotle, Alhazen, Avicenna etc. was just bubkus lol

                  2. 61
                    (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm so sorry about that.

            2. 61
              (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, based on your description. What are you talking about?



              There is no up or down when viewing the earth as up and down have no meaning in that reference frame. That is entirely the point.



              The entire world back then did not include the Americas as the earth was thought to be flat and one would sail right off "the ends of the earth".



              Huh?



              I agree, what was the point of that exercise?

    4. Quilligrapher profile image91
      Quilligrapherposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Trolls can not be prevented from posting in the forums but they can be prevented from highjacking a thread.  Simply ignore their posts.  Nothing is more irritating to a bully then being ignored.  Trolls want to argue and they need to be noticed.  Give them what they want and they will never leave.  The best way to have a meaningful dialog with other posters is to just stay on topic.  Treat the posts of all the trolls on both sides of the issue as background noise and just tune them out.  No one should feel obligated to reply to another's post just because it was directed at him or her.

      Just a thought, so feel free to ignore me too.
      Q.

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        no, you are absolutely correct. thank you.

    5. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      this is the second thread in a matter of hours with a confrontational title. I don't see what purpose these threads serve other than causing more divisive bickering.  hmm

      the very titles invite conflict.

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        the only way to work things out is to put them on the table.

    6. pylos26 profile image75
      pylos26posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I just follow my interest...why don't religionist conduct their religion where it belongs...out of sight and hearing.

    7. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I can only speak for myself here, but I genuinely feel that people who believe and act the way you do are detrimental to our society and hold us back both spiritually and educationally.

      I know you all claim to love unconditionally, but looking at the responses from the believers - atheists are now bullies and only expressing a negative opinion about your religion because they want to intimidate you religionists.

      This is not true. I am not interested in intimidating any one.

      I am interested in showing them how irrational, hurtful and damaging their belief system is though.

      How many threads are started here attacking homosexuality or abortion or non-belief? Or whatever else it is you people have got into your heads that the invisible super being disapproves of. sad

      If you kept your religion where it belongs - in your heads - we would not even be having this conversation.

      I even wrote a hub about why your religious beliefs cause nothing but conflict.

      You guys might think it is OK to stand up in public and constantly attack other people's choices - or blame whatever you perceive as "wrong with America" on the non believers.

      Strangely - this causes bad feelings, ill will and fights. Which is what the powers that be (not the invisible one) want. Which is what religion is for.

      There is no god.

      Just consider that as a "truth" for a moment and hold it in your heads as such.

      Now - with that thought held in your head - how do you feel when I tell you that god does not like what you are doing and you need to do what god told me you should be doing?

      And speaking for myself - after 48 years boy and man being told there is a god and having it shoved into my head on a daily basis - it is an opportunity to express how I feel about having this noinsense shoved at me every day.

      I will stop telling you that your god does not exist the very day you stop telling me it does.

      Your religion causes nothing but conflict and will be our eventual downfall. Read any history book.

      And please do not tell me Pol Pot was an atheist. That does not justify 1800 years of bloodshed and wars in the name of God.

      Now - I am not using any "atheist tactics," or trying to bully or intimidate you. I am not saying this to upset you.

      I am being honest.

      Edit - And I usually stay out of any genuine "religious" conversations.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I Agree !

        I usually stay out of genuine religious conversations as well.
        But these kind of threads are funny, I'm sorry to say.

    8. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The reason atheists become involved in religious conversations is because they have questions regarding their beliefs.  If they stayed out of the conversations then that would be a affirmation that they are happy with their resolve.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol
        What beliefs ??
        We don't have any !

        And you say :

        'If they stayed out of the conversations then that would be a affirmation that they are happy with their resolve.'

        So that means Believers are questioning their beliefs . Because if atheists are here because they are questioning themselves, then believers as well.
        Aren't we all humans ?

        1. rhamson profile image76
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I think your assumption of a equal purpose is somewhat shortsighted.  I can't speak for others but for myself the reason why I engage in these conversations with non believers is to try and share what I feel and know for myself and my beliefs.  I don't have any animosity for non believers as some believers show in here but really do care that you understand what you are missing by your unbelief.  You should read Lk 11:33-36.  It kind of explains it.  I have to wonder if I am trying to share the light of my belief what are you trying to share with me if this is an equal exchange of ideas?

          1. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I think your assumption of atheists is shortsided!!

            We are not missing anything by not believing!
            Maybe we think you are!
            This statement , never cross your mind?

            1. rhamson profile image76
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Your argument of replacing my something with your nothing is a mute point.  Your choice to believe as you do is not based on anything therefore has no proof as well as mine that there is something out there to believe in.

              But the thought of something to believe in is ingrained in you.  Whether it is something or nothing you have a belief and it takes a lot more energy and reasoning to prove God does not exist than it does to prove in His existence.

              Your tone of voice and words bely the fact of your anger.  Perhaps this is what you believe in in the absense of God in your life.

              1. tantrum profile image61
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                lol lol lol

                You're funny!
                People here in HB that know me ,knows I'm not angry at all. With anything.

                I'm always joking & laughing lol

                So maybe, you're the 1 with an anger problem ??

                Have a happy thanksgiving !! lol lol lol

                BTW, Why don't you write some hubs ?
                Or  are you  someone's alter ego ?? lol

                1. 0
                  lyricsingrayposted 7 years ago in reply to this
                  1. rhamson profile image76
                    rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Your laughter is too transparent and an invitation to an argument of egos.  No thank you. And a good day to you and have a Happy Thanksgiving.  Who do you thank on Thanksgiving?

              2. 61
                (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I've seen more of a "frustration" from some folks that may just appear as anger.

                It's not difficult to understand either. For example, if someone was constantly telling you there was an invisible purple dragon living in your attic, you'd eventually get very frustrated trying to find out how they knew it was purple. wink

                1. rhamson profile image76
                  rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Well if there were centuries of people telling me there was a purple dragon living in my attic I might want to know too.  I agree that frustration can motivate the anger I see on these topics and it comes a lot from the believers side as well.  But the tone and content is what is important and the free exchange of ideas is the loss.

                  The only way you can understand the spiritual aspect of God is to recieve it.  And the only way you can recieve it is to believe in it.  And faith in it is something you have to give.  Once you have felt the holy spirit there is no mistaking it.  I guess this is what is so frustrating about sharing this with people who are so divorced from it. I only know how far you have to go to get there and I hope it is not a deep dark part of your life that has to be the catalyst to make it happen for you. Maybe it is not to be for many and maybe it will not matter but I feel the need to present it with what I know and what I can.

      2. getitrite profile image80
        getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Is that so?   You believe in an invisible voyeuristic super-being that is outside of the realm of reality.  It would appear that the believers would be the ones not sure of their resolve.

        Although there are, maybe, a few non believers who fit your statement, after reading most of the post here, it's seems to me that atheist try to live within the constraints of reality, you don't.  I don't have questions regarding my beliefs, however, I do have questions regarding yours.  The onus is on you.  I don't question whether or not an invisible, non-sensical superbeing exist.  I live in reality.

        1. rhamson profile image76
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I find it funny that you even make an effort to explain that which you do not understand.  How can you understand something that you cannot touch, feel or see? The spiritual world totally escapes you so how could you understand it?  To say that I am not sure of my resolve would take a bit for you to understand based on how much I have to overcome what you stae as the truth.  My resolve is something you cannot understand as a non believer as you have nothing to relate to it.

          My attempt to relate my belief to you is also something that will not fit into the lack of spiritual enlightenment you enjoy. How can the light entertain the darkness?  They are mutually exclusive.  How can you prove to the blind the light? How do I even explain it when you don't see?  I think the attacks on the grasp on reality is what is the most inane.  What is real truth?  How is your reality more real than mine?  You see what you wish to see and I do the same.  I just prefer to use more than my eyes.

          1. getitrite profile image80
            getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I think this is the ramblings of a controlled mind.  These forums are very educational.  I have learned that a delusional mind is much worse than I thought it was.  That's the main reason I come to these forums, it's astounding.  Wow!!! what an education I have received!

            1. rhamson profile image76
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I am sorry that your retort to my relating in this forum is as negative as it is.  I have no fear that you will learn someday to join a conversation and not attack it from the outside. I prefer to keep my tongue civil and thank you for your input.  Once again, what does the light have in common with the darkness?

              1. getitrite profile image80
                getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I'm amazed that when someone attacks the effects of religion, believers take it so personally.  Look, you did not invent religion, you are a victim of it. Although your responses sound brilliant to you, because you have the "Holy Spirit" they really are just statements in defense of nonsense.  I think that was civil enough.  I don't know how, else, to put it.

                The Holy Spirit is a "drug" that is irrational.  I know, I was saved, and believed for years.

                I just don't know why you asked me "what does the light have in common with the darkness?"  Is that a trick question?

                1. rhamson profile image76
                  rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't take anything you say as a personal attack.  As you state I did not invent religion and I don't particiate in religious dogma.  My beliefs are my own and thankfully I live in a place where I can express them. I am sorry you think that belief in the Holy Spirit is some sort of defense let alone nonsense.  My belief is merely that and your disbelief is somehow disproof of that statement?  If you are offended by my answers to your musings than what kind of brilliance can I claim.

                  Your last statements about the Holy Spirit as an irrational drug makes one wonder what type of spiritual education you recieved prior to casting off faith and questioning the statement about the light having nothing to do with the dark is not a trick question but a relevent inquiry as to your understanding the difference between the believer and the exchange to the non-believer.

    9. ddoingit1 profile image60
      ddoingit1posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Abide by the bretheren rule of who dares call another an what ever if your wrong who to say the eye of God is in the mind of the subjective Eye, of the others mind in desicraing the mind of anther mans mind or what have you is to say, live by the cross,
      10 horns and the sworded toung is the formulated truth of the battle of wrong and right of the battle of the subconcience sublimible reaction, among the dire to the desire, cross breading among the fellow mind.

      1. VacationAustralia profile image80
        VacationAustraliaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'm glad we got that straightened out! lol lol lol

    10. 59
      jfarquharposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Has anybody ever thought perhaps atheism is a religion, too? Francis Bacon (1600s) said (and I must paraphrase) many atheists would be tortured to continue to deny God and not admit his existence, but if there is no God, why bother; recant and be done.

    11. 0
      cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      um, when so-called Christians stay out of "secular" threads?

      seriously i stay out of religious threads now after getting repeatedly attacked in the nastiest ways by a couple of alleged Christians, so i learned a hard lesson.

      i suppose they are very pleased with themselves...

    12. cheaptrick profile image78
      cheaptrickposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Why do Jehovah witnesses keep coming to our doors...Besides,Atheists(mature ones)and believers actually AGREE...Now don't Kill me yet.We believe in Order versus Chaos...You believe in God versus the Devil...Its really a question of Semantics.Unfortunately we have Fanatics who try to Ram our Chosen Words down peoples throats to.Here's an apparent contradiction that is false if you go behind the words and look at the essence of it...Atheists have there God to...We just use a  different language...

  2. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago

    I would assume when threads in the religious forum stop attacking them.

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You don't read very well.

    2. 0
      Millionheirposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I believe I would agree...lest we forget that Christianity crushed the competition/naysayers/non-belivers literally

      1. 0
        Writer Riderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No one was crushed. Opinions were just expressed, even though I don't know what went on. I'm sure my guess is right.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I think we are talking historically - in the "real" world. big_smile

          1. 0
            Writer Riderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Do we know what the "real" world is? No, we only know what's perceptive to us.

        2. 0
          Millionheirposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry I meant more literally...like the Crusades during the Middle Ages, witch burnings at Salem...ect

  3. 0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    They can't. Their like bullies on the playground. They come in numbers and try to inflict some kind of hurt on a believer or they try and make you feel stupid. They enjoy the thrill of feeling superior to another person.

    1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
      Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds like both sides to me...

      There are bullies on both sides, neither side is innocent.

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        neither side is innocent. I have insulted some before too. but I had to learn all of the atheist tactics the hard way before I lashed out.

      2. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I generally don't participate in the religious forums, but this is certainly my observation.

        HubPages is not a religious site. It has a "religion" thread in the forums which is OPEN TO ALL REGARDLESS OF BELIEF (OR LACK OF), just like the rest of the site.

        If you want to discuss religion in a forum where others can't participate, you have the choice to go join a religious site.

      3. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It sounds like you're trying to establish a moral equivalency. I'm sorry; it doesn't exist here. Look at the highest posters to the religious forum. Many of them are atheists. Do you see the reverse on atheist "free thinker" sites?

        sneakorocksolid is right; several of them are school yard bullies. In fact, that was the exact analogy I thought of some time ago before I read it here.

        I think that most believers would be content to let unbelievers have their forums and leave them alone. Can you honestly say that unbelievers would like this arrangement and stay out of the religion forums? I hope you're not going to bet your hard-earned online revenues on that one...

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Nice.

          Not holier than thou at all. wink

          1. Bibowen profile image90
            Bibowenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Well, at least we agree on something...

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Dear oh deary me.

              And you speak for God? sad

          2. Bovine Currency profile image61
            Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Religion already runs the biggest school yard and owns the biggest forums, it rests in our parliaments, our schools, our social services, the list goes on.  I am a Christian if anyone cares to know but I usually state otherwise, see I am anti-religion, very much so but I believe Christ died for a cause, he died for reason, for humanity and he did it all in vain.  The religion he fought survived and in turn, a bigger and nastier religion was born.  Christ never achieved his goals and his spirit continues to be raped to this day.  I believe we all have a right on this forum and the argument for athiesm is valid and its presence very welcome by me, a believer in God, a Christian.  I may not fit the mould of an athiest but I align with the system because it makes sense.

    2. GeneralHowitzer profile image63
      GeneralHowitzerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      They're not bullies, one of the reasons why there are atheists it is because of the presence of false teachings and paganisms whose flaws and imperfections are obvious. But still there are sincere religions that molds people to be righteous and encourages them to walking the talk the way a real Christians should do...

      In my viewpoint and principles I always respect the freewill and unique identity of each individual... big_smile

  4. 0
    Wag The Dogposted 7 years ago

    Atheists should not stay out of a religious conversation.  They would not be in it if they where not searching.    God wants them in the conversation.  Otherwise they would not be i it.

    1. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I used to think this too,  . . once.
      I know better now.
      The LAST thing they are doing is "searching", unless you mean for an opportunity to upset, bully and intimidate. sad

    2. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I hope thats the plan.

  5. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    You really think that a thread about worship needs an athiest to come in there and set them right? If they can't carry on a thread without a ridicule where they are supposed to have that conversation, PLEASE don't bother telling me the athiest morals are working. That is more bent than you admit.

    1. 0
      Wag The Dogposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What is sad is when an atheists does join in, they tend to get bashed by those whos job it is to love.  Satan likes nothing better than mean Christians.

    2. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Nice thoughts !

      Ah ! And tell me about the ridicule.
      More ridicule than in  this post, I don't think I could find !

  6. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Atheists and other "non believers" will stay away from religious forums when religionists stop trying to ram their fantasies down others throats, or in other words "when hell freezes over."

  7. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago

    Doesn't it make the forum live though? What is the point of just having threads where everyone agrees with everyone else all the time?  It's the risk you talk on an open/public forum, you can't keep anyone out.

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It would be nice once in awhile and to show you're good intentions why don't you come to church? It's always better when you're there!

    2. sooner than later profile image61
      sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No, there is much to talk about. Sorry, but none of our converstations go anywhere. Its true. they win every time.

      and they don't have rules to play by. So, while it may be entertaining- many including myself have asked "please" keep your stabs to yourself or go troll elsewhere.

      Nope, can't do it.

      so- who is childish? easy

    3. h.a.borcich profile image60
      h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If I started a thread in...religion>Christianity>worship....

        And I was asking Christians if they have been baptized as adults, should an athiest blow in and start telling us we're stupid?

        If I asked it in ...religion..yep - open game.
        But certainly there must be a single space where christians can ask christians questions without the ugliness from athiests.

      1. Lady_E profile image82
        Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It's an open Forum for all - Muslims, christians and Atheists. If an atheist butts into your thread, you deal with them politely (or put them right politely) and in most cases they would apologise anyway. I've seen it happen on several occasions in Forums.

        I thought you guys had the love of God in you. smile

        1. h.a.borcich profile image60
          h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You sound as though I have disappointed you. How quickly I got judged. And please, point out 1 single thread where an athiest backed down when they were asked. Bonus points if you can show me an apology (marine dude doesn't count). If I am wrong please show me - but don't put a target on my charachter for stating what I see.

          1. Lady_E profile image82
            Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            My comments did not judge - simply backing up what Uninvited writer wrote - Forums is open to all.  Even Christians step on each others toes, not to talk of those who are not Christians.

            The Apologies you wanted: (haven't got time to cut n paste, you'll have to read through the threads)

            http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/22761?page=2#post397124

            http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/22076?page=9#post513471

            http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/22132

            .... and I respect all of them for apologising. So, back to the point - Allow Atheists or any Religion into Christian Threads.

            Its 12:20am UK time - will not be able to respond to any further comments and hope you all have a peaceful time on Forums.
            Nite, nite.

            1. ddoingit1 profile image60
              ddoingit1posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              An aithiest is of hate, a christian is of faith of all women and men, to the spectrum of logical gesture not harrasement when a young woman trys to find her own way, I hope, and pray there will come day When brothers and sisters will live togather, in peace and harmony, as said by Martin Luther King, thumbs up Ladt E

          2. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Targets on your character ?
            We don't need to
            You put them yourself !

            Saying :

            'without the ugliness from athiests.'

            Thank you !!!

            An BTW, it's 'atheists', not 'athiests '

            1. 0
              sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah! Them too!

      2. Bovine Currency profile image61
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Church

        1. h.a.borcich profile image60
          h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Are you saying a christian has no place in the forums to discuss christian ideas with others like them without being attacked?

            I may not agree with what you do or don't believe, but I am glad my belief is that all can have a place on the forums in a respectful way.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image61
            Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Deleted

            1. Bovine Currency profile image61
              Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              You may consider 'the ugliness from atheists' as a phrase of respectful tone but I am sure I am not the only one to disagree.  Can you see the problem I am trying to highlight?

  8. 0
    Wag The Dogposted 7 years ago

    By the way, I am guilty of this as well.  But I do try to turn the other cheek.

  9. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago

    But you can't tell people to stay out...this is a public forum and you just have to take the good with the bad.

    1. sooner than later profile image61
      sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      that is why anything with real depth is done by email. happens a lot.

  10. sooner than later profile image61
    sooner than laterposted 7 years ago

    I have yet to see some trollers answer a question.

  11. 0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    And still no one learns. I'm out!

  12. sooner than later profile image61
    sooner than laterposted 7 years ago

    Just some peoples passion crazd. myself included.

  13. Uninvited Writer profile image84
    Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago

    No, I don't think they should jump into such threads; and some do go too far. But they are in the vast minority.

  14. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    It happens to almost every christian thread dirested to other christians...I have been watching. And I have left posts to that effect on those threads.

    1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
      Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well, I'm sorry that happens. I don't hang out in the religion forum so I don't see many of the threads. I agree, really no excuse. But Christians also seem to show up on threads talking about atheism too.

  15. Flightkeeper profile image77
    Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago

    You can't stop a non-christian from posting on a thread even if it's obvious that the thread is of interest only to christians and the like.  What you can do is ignore those who are obnoxious.  It's obvious that when they get into a religious thread that they want to upset you, so why not just ignore them and discuss with the people who you intended to converse with. You know who these people are by now so don't read whatever they post. The last thing you want to do is have them bait you.  Conversely if an obnoxious christian goes into a secular thread, they can't go around telling people they're sinners. I've seen that happen too and it's not pleasant for them and they should get mad.

    1. sooner than later profile image61
      sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      the air must be better up there. good point flightkeeper. smile

  16. Don W profile image85
    Don Wposted 7 years ago

    People like to argue about things. It's like . . .

    Welcome to the MGM Las Vegas tonight where our main bout is hopelessly unjustified god belief vs. nihilistic narcissistic self belief. Round 1. . .

    Well the theist comes out swinging with the assertion that god belief is a basic-belief and therefore doesn't need evidence to support it.

    The atheist wasn't expecting that one. But he's quick to recover, and counters with the problem of good and evil, getting things back onto safer ground. But the theist isn't taking it lying down as he hits back with the problem of other minds.

    What a great fight this is, with both fighters determined to get a KO. Things look pretty evenly matched though, so it looks like this could go the distances . . .

    People love the carnage. It's sport. Forums are 21st century coliseums, complete with christians and lions that try to rip them apart. The lions get to feed their need to feel clever and condescending, and the christians get to feel like martyrs for their faith. It's a win-win.

  17. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Well, that could well be true - I don't go there smile I do look at the christian threads as I am indeed a christian. Very hard to find a single thread on christian living that has not been raped by athiests.

    I have wandered more on the religious forums as a watcher and not contributing. I also have nothing I care to add to an athiest conversation, so I don't. If I had hoped to learn anything from the religious forums, I would have come up empty with how it goes here.

    Maybe some lines can be respected. I may not be a nonbeliever, but if they want to discuss their thoughts on their threads they should. As a christian I would defend their right to do so even tho I disagree with their beliefs.

    Do my words and actions line up?

  18. pylos26 profile image75
    pylos26posted 7 years ago

    "the ugliness from athiests"...Is this comment from a civil person?

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well you have to admit rats aren't that cute.

  19. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I have had a few conversations on the HP with a few Atheists that their questions have caused me to question a few of my thought processes that I came out of the conversation a little wiser. And stronger in my faith.
      IF we could listen it is a good thing to communicate.
    No one wants to listening ???  caint comunicate.

      If we can not hear we should not speak.

  20. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Also...I hate it when I am talking to someone and they and their buddy won't let anyone else speak.

  21. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Galileo Galilei once said, "I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them."

    Ferdinand Magellan said, "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."

    My point is that if it were not for men like these with such principles in their quest for the rational and the reasonable, the church today still might believe the earth is flat.


        I notice that these references were of the Church.
       Some people do not think so but I believe that we do not have to have faith in the Church (religion of any sort) in order to have a relationship with God. I think that this is the key to understanding.

    1. Friendlyword profile image60
      Friendlywordposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      God Bless you My Brother. Happy Thanksgiving to you.

    2. 61
      (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That isn't quite correct, although you do raise a good point, only one was a reference to the church while the other a relationship with god. I felt it necessary to include both for that reason.

      Well spotted.

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Didn't mean to steal credit for your post Top of page Jerami said.   I am a bit computer inept, and didn't see the error before.

           The reference to God should have originally been read with the understanding that the church might have inferred that man should not use his own reasoning;  Is why I answered the way that I did.
             With all of the diffrent religions today how can anyone really have faith in any particular one.
             When we blow all of the religiosity out of the air we can then see GOD.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I couldn't agree with you more, Jerami. How does one sit back and try to digest the various religions doctrines and dogma and make sense of any of it? This religion says it's god is the one and only god while that religion says the same thing. In fact, they all make claims to knowing the one true god. The problem is that their doctrines don't really jive with what they say. In other words, they all claim to know one god, yet their holy books are different from one another.

          It's mind boggling. Why would a god decide to tell opposing things to different people? Shouldn't those messages all be exactly the same?

  22. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Lady E,

      Thanks for the links and I was able to see them in the flesh although the one to atoms wife seemed strange.

      The problem isn't with various faiths (or nonfaiths) posting per se on the threads. It is the manner in which it is done. The immeadiate name calling and denigrating is just beyond anything I've ever seen. That people are behind the avatars and trying to share a discussion with others interested in the same vein should be allowed. Without an all out verbal assault.

      Seems many others want that too. I like to read the threads with faiths other than my own, how else could I gain an understanding? But I don't jump in and start calling someone stupid thinking it will help anyone.

      Maybe it is time for crows or trolls or whatever to just take a sabatical.

      And thank you for the links - some were before my time on here - I would never have gone that deep into the forum archives.
      Have a great nite too.

    BTW - I made muffins today - somehow started my oven on fire, in front of my stepkids, and went out for dinner. What an afternoon!

    1. Lady_E profile image82
      Lady_Eposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No Worries

      I hope you enjoy Writing and Interacting on HP. Be warned, the Temperature in the Religion Forum rises a lot. lol.

      Best Wishes smile

    2. drej2522 profile image88
      drej2522posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think there are certain subjects that you just can't talk about...I'm sure you have heard of the big three...Politics, Abortion, and of course Religion. For some reason, when these three topics are discussed (topics that people are passionate about) they feel they must defend it to the death. So, even if you start a thread that is aimed toward a specific group (using your example: should adults be baptized) it doesn't matter. You are still talking about religion. And when someone sees a key trigger or term such as Religion, Christian, Faith, Muslim, God...you are going to draw people in...from all walks of life.

      Even people within their own religion get into heated debates. Although, it isn't an argument about faith, it's usually an argument about interpretation (aka Catholics and Protestants)... that reminds me, recently I have run into some devout Christians, all Protestant (some nondenominational and some Baptists) and they didn't know that Roman Catholics were Christian. Has anyone else run into this??

  23. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Q  said 
      I couldn't agree with you more, Jerami. How does one sit back and try to digest the various religions doctrines and dogma and make sense of any of it? This religion says it's god is the one and only god while that religion says the same thing. In fact, they all make claims to knowing the one true god. The problem is that their doctrines don't really jive with what they say. In other words, they all claim to know one god, yet their holy books are different from one another.

    It's mind boggling. Why would a god decide to tell opposing things to different people? Shouldn't those messages all be exactly the same?

      Again I claim to know nothing about these things with certainty but my instincts tell me that we know nothing about the character of a man while everything is going as he thinks that they should. It is in times of distress that his true nature is seen.  It is also during these times that his character is changed. Maybe the bad times is a good thing.
       My grandfather used to instigate fights between myself and my older brother (20 months age difference) We learned how to get along very well even when we did not agree.
       Maybe God did make two sets of rules for two diffrent peoples. And with time, corruption crept into them both through the disguise of Interpretation. 
       The original spirit of the Christian teachings before the corruption might not have been that diffrent than the original spirit of the teachings of Islam before its corruption.
       They each have more denominations than we can point a stick at. Maybe the development of diffrent denominations was the corruption that is described in Rev. 13

  24. wirednomad profile image61
    wirednomadposted 7 years ago

    Maybe you are over generalizing about atheists. I'm an atheist, I'm also religious. I'm buddhist. At least in this situation I can't think of any reason why as an atheist I should stay out of religious threads.

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

         There is no reason anyone should stay out of the religion and beliefs forums.
          We should all see how adult we can pretend to be.
          Pretending =  practicing =  gettin better at it.

    2. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It's the typical 'christian' behaviour !
      They never learn !

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        elaborate please.

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Read My post above this one.
          You need more examples ??

    3. h.a.borcich profile image60
      h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I can see it looks that way, my verbage (and spelling) are not perfect. I am also not always pc. I have to live with that. What is an all encompassing word for those who do not agree with christianity?

        It is frustrating to see so many thinking people attack each other rather than be respectful of differences. When an opportunity arises to openly discuss those differences it becomes ugly instead.

  25. sooner than later profile image61
    sooner than laterposted 7 years ago

    Tantrum

    you are my example for this thread.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes! and the answer is : Never
      A problem with that ?
      Why don't you ignore me?

      anyway, I will come back whenever I please,
      You're not going to stop me ! lol

      1. sooner than later profile image61
        sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        no, its fine. I just wonder why you don't go deeper, or avoid childish comments on every religious thread?

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I don't go deeper. because this kind of posts don't deserve more than childish comments, as they are about childish beliefs

          1. sooner than later profile image61
            sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            THESE kind of posts.
            Ok I'll ignore you then.

            1. tantrum profile image61
              tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you !
              I will appreciate that !

              1. sooner than later profile image61
                sooner than laterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                WOULD appreciate that. or take out the WILL. either way.

                1. tantrum profile image61
                  tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm sure you understood what I wrote. lol

                  You're still not ignoring me !!
                  what a joke !
                  thanks for the laughs !! lol lol lol

  26. 0
    thetruthhurts2009posted 7 years ago

    Introducing marine 2 aka tantrum

  27. sooner than later profile image61
    sooner than laterposted 7 years ago

    truth smile

  28. 0
    Nelle Hoxieposted 7 years ago

    If religious zealots (of all faiths) didn't affect my life - I would gladly ignore them in every way. But they bring their backwards thinking into the education system, the laws that are passed at all levels of government, and in many ways constrain my liberties.

    If no one speaks up, religious zealots assume we agree or that you've beaten us down.

  29. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Through out the book of Daniel the word earth can be understood only as representing the promised land, Israel, or the Hebrew nation.  The first three kingdoms which were to have dominion over the earth were Babylon, Persia and Greece. They did not have dominion over the whole earth as we know it. They did have dominion  over Israel. 
       It is my opinion that the four corners of the earth represented All of Israel.

  30. Flightkeeper profile image77
    Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago

    lol

  31. yoshi97 profile image87
    yoshi97posted 7 years ago

    I had to learn the hard way ... but I wasn't jumped on just by atheists ...

    By being a believer who believes in evolution I get bagged by both sides. At first, I defended my beliefs but then I had a revelation ... If I truly believe in them then what is there to defend?

    Am I trying to prove my beliefs to another who already disbelieves? No chance of conversion there. Am I trying to convince myself? I already believe what I believe. Am I trying to get the truth out? That was the question that had me going for a long time ...

    What is ... the truth. The truth is not a belief. The truth is something you have irrefutably proven to yourself and something that is proven to everyone around you. Without the conviction of all, proof is nothing more than belief, as truth is something no one can deny.

    Example ... this is a message on a forum called Hubpages. That is truth. No one will refute it, so it's truth for all.

    Belief ... the server that runs Hubpages is sitting in a building in California.

    Hold up ... that's truth, isn't it? After all, Hubpages is out of California, right? Well, if everyone is willing to concede to that then we can call it truth ... but some who know how the internet works already know that server could actually be in Nevada, Iowa, or New Jersey. As such, can we say this one is truth?

    Okay, so the staff gets online and says it's from California .. do we have truth then? As long as not everyone concedes then no, we do not.

    Now, if we all take a tour of the Hubpages building and see the server in action then none could deny it any further ... it becomes truth.

    As it's next to impossible to prove many things to everyone then there are many things which will never be truth to all ... and thus ... arguing over them is nonsense. Belief can't be bullied ... it can only be earned by a person accepting them as truth because they chose to accept the proof given on their own.

    As such, I'm no longer a free radical in the religion forums. I have my own beliefs and I allow others their own - so long as their intent is to express their opinion and not to manipulate others for some kind of science experiment - I think we all know what I speak of here.

    Believe what you will and I'm okay with that. Disagree with my beliefs and I'm okay with that. I can't sway you any more than you can sway me, so my intent remains not to ridicule and fowl the opinions of others, but to show that I have beliefs of my own that may or may not coincide with others and that I am seeking to see if others share my beliefs so I could discuss them with that person in private where neither of us would feel a need to defend what we see as our own personal truth.

    Everyone has something they believe in ... and if we listen to others and stop rejecting their message, we just might hear another truth ... we all want to be heard, and how evil is it to listen when we are strong in our beliefs and know they can't be strayed.

    As I have said elsewhere ... who are we protecting from the lies? Others or ourselves? And how can we be absolutely certain we have a truth ... well, I already told you that one. The rest we accept on faith, unless we can be there at the moment when truth occurs, we measure it ourselves, and we record our results.

    Truth isn't in books or science experiments ... truth for each one of us is built inside what we believe. smile

  32. Daniel Carter profile image90
    Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago

    It seems to me that there are certain ego types that just need to be right no matter what. They are comprised of both atheists and believers, it seems to me. It appears they purposely and calculatedly provoke each other for a heated response. It's a rush and it lets the ego run wild. That way, one can claim they speak with the wrath of God and pronounce judgments and the other can mock because he/she sees a chance to look more intelligent. It's a child's game played by people who have double digits for their ages.

    I think it's rather fun, sometimes silly and sometimes even sobering about how we can descend to new lows.

    I've observed this over and over again in the forums. It happens in any forum subject that has the potential of becoming emotionally charged, not just religion forums. I don't make a judgment as to whether it's good or bad, because I think some of us need the experience it brings. However, I think there is a time when we decide we've had enough and can walk away from it.

  33. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    Oh yes !
    I'm childish
    I like to play
    I like to have fun
    I don't take forums seriously

    I'm a very happy person, with lots of free time to do whatever I please.
    and that's what I'm doing !

    just in case no one notice
    lol

    1. Daniel Carter profile image90
      Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It's good to be a child. They are rather harmless. Lots to be learned from child's play.
      smile

  34. Colebabie profile image60
    Colebabieposted 7 years ago

    Umm why are ya'll arguing religion again?

    Look, if someone who is religious is having a conversation about "What is your favorite scripture?" etc. cool, discuss amongst yourselves.

    But conversations in the religious forums that ask "Why does an atheist..." "There has to be a God because..." etc. you are basically inviting anyone regardless of their religion or lack of.

    When will atheists stay out of religious conversation?

    When it doesn't involve them or question their lives.

    I don't agree with either side when they involve themselves where it is not appropriate. Ex. when atheists enter into a conversation that is religious (how often do you go to church, what is your favorite scripture) or when those who are religious enter into a conversation that is not (political, scientific, human rights, etc)

  35. Colebabie profile image60
    Colebabieposted 7 years ago

    Telling someone they are missing something in their lives because they do not share the same religion of you shows lack of acceptance and tolerance. The very thing religions teach. My suggestion? If you have a religion, live it. Stop wasting your time trying to convince others and defending your belief. Not only is it a waste of time, it is against what you are preaching.

    1. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I am sorry you took it that way.  I did not know that discussing something in an objective manner would offend you.  I merely suggest that there is a spiritual side to life and also stated earlier that these exchanges are something I feel must happen to be informative as well as helpful.  if you are upset by it I did not mean for it to happen that way.  I ddi not try to defend my belief but only offered it up.  It has been rejected and that is the result.

      This is a forum to discuss this topic.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So now you're meek ! lol

        Why offer your belief, when you know it will be rejected ?
        What's behind that kind offer ?

        lol

        1. rhamson profile image76
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Maybe to expose what you do not offer.

      2. Colebabie profile image60
        Colebabieposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No this is a forum that asks why atheists are a part of religious conversation. Yet someone still finds it an outlet to express their personal belief and disregard others. Not upset at all, it happens every day here. You think your suggestions are informative and helpful, but as you can see they just annoy people because no one wants to be told they are wrong and are missing out. Take my suggestion.

        1. rhamson profile image76
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I think if you read back a little you will see how this conversation developed and that my involvement has been on topic.  And whether or not I have been helpful or informative is not what is important.  What is important is that both sides of the issue are played out.  If you disagree then that is your choice.  If I am disregarding others belief in your eyes then I appologize.  I think I happen to understand both sides as I was once a non-believer as well.

  36. lorlie6 profile image84
    lorlie6posted 7 years ago

    As far as I'm concerned, the topic is fair game when on a forum.

  37. Bovine Currency profile image61
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    I sometimes wonder when athiests and other "'non believers'" and even God loving religion haters like myself might be allowed the right to live in a world ruled by reasonable morals rather than sheeped up hungry wolves hunting down thinking individuals in the endless war on decency and peace.  Other times, I just argue with Christians.

  38. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    I'm not here to offer anything
    I don't believe !
    Is that clear ??
    lol lol
    thanks 4 the laughs !

  39. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Ok - a verbage problem on my part...I was not stating athiests are ugly. My bad. Could you look at it as "attacking by atheists."?  I do believe I have been point blank that the believers have also brought ugliness to the forums, er attacking.

    Please don't let a point be lost on an unintended poorly worded sentence. I look past those things like grammer too, just to see the point.

    1. Bovine Currency profile image61
      Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I will give you benefit of the doubt on the verbage issue as you put it.  However, I have not let any point be lost.  The point being that what you see as attacks by athiests, I see as a defense of humanity by reasonable thinking individuals, sick and tired of being subject to the inherent violence of religion both in principle and in physical reality.  Ignorance might exist on both sides of the dispute but there is still a void of explanation to how religion might be interpreted as a peaceful pursuit.  The situation as I see it is that athiesm seeks to demystify the crude interpretation of biblical text which in the hands of many generations has become a tool used for power and subjugation.  The common defense of Christians being that religion doesn't hurt anyone and tolerance of faith is one that causes most grief in these forums.  On one side it is argued that there are different sorts of Christians, the wrong sort and the other sort.  The sort that seeks excuse might not be the slightest bit interested in politics and choose to ignore the harms done by religion because their particular practice of one or other chosen religion is apparently harmless.  There is no supporting evidence offered to support this except the tolerance argument and then leading into claims of bigotry, ugliness, arrogance, devils children and so on.  There is no attempt to rebutt with any logic so obviously the athiests are going to continue, they are being unheard and treated with contempt by those who pretend to be involved in communication but are merely ignoring the efforts of logical argument and repeating the same tired lines.  The athiests as they might be known as, are actually not concerned with the inner workings of religion, the importance of those workings but necessarily used to support the real interest, that being prejudice based on belief and power being executed by few, through disinformation and the control of mercenary cattle.  Athiesm is not a system of faith, it is a logical, scientifical and historical argument, carefully formulated opposition, and its motive is the preservation of morality which religion is continually working to preserve in its own hands as the official manuscript of truth.

      1. rhamson profile image76
        rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Well said Bovine! You may just be a heroe of mine.

        1. Bovine Currency profile image61
          Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well, thank you.

      2. h.a.borcich profile image60
        h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Fair enough - I know my wording was an honest mistake. It happens from time to time with me.

           I can assure you I do not run around trying to force what I believe down anyones throat by any means, violent or otherwise. History is chockful of religious/nonreligious wrongs that I am sure I had nothing to do with - I am only 44. Whatever happened before my time I cannot take responsibility for. I have not tried to explain what my beliefs are let alone get involved in the logic/faith/science/absolutes "stuff" thus have not wieghed in either way, nor do I intend to on a volatile forum. Ask anyone - I ignore all that.
           My only point is that if I go all the way to a specific forum subtopic: religion>christianity>whatever subtopic....I should have a measure of confidence not to be attacked that I am stupid for my beliefs. Just as you should have the same confidence in a specialized subtopic of your beliefs or nonbeliefs. Only when a post is put on broader scale open to broader participation would there be the fighting like goes on.Wouldn't that be better than what goes on?

          (Disclaimer...If I have inadvertatly used an unacceptable word for nonbelievers, please offer a suggestion that is acceptable.)

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No problem with your wording, but I think you are negating the viewpoint that Christianity is not a good thing, and surely this is an appropriate venue to voice that opinion.

          Whether you can admit it or not - the chrostian religion is responsible for a considerable number of ills and continues to cause conflict to this day.

          I find it extremely difficult to go into churches and voice this opinion. And I have found a good proportion of believers will become physically violent if you beard them in their den, as it were.

        2. Bovine Currency profile image61
          Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          We are clearly different people.  You ignore logic as you just so cleary stated.  I enjoy logic; having reason behind my conclusions seems like a good idea, not sure why!  I hear your case, I understand your woes but I am fairly certain (by way of logic) that your 'measure of confidence' is a little misjudged.  Is there some way you would choose to secure such a conversation?  It simply will not happen, it is not logically possible.

          I have tried to define logic for you above.  To be more clear, in case you are not aware, as it seems you are not, logic is merely formulating an opinion based on the presence of a valid premise/s.  That is a good starting point.  Logic is not a theory it is mathematics.  Pure and simple.

  40. AEvans profile image70
    AEvansposted 7 years ago

    It certainly does and I found a link from the believer side and they are also pretty hot! http://hubpages.com/hub/DARE-TO-TAKE-A- … BOUND-HUBS he certainly expressed himself just like another hubber did who was a non-believer it certainly is getting hot on hubpages!

  41. 0
    Writer Riderposted 7 years ago

    I believe everyone should be allowed their opinions either way. I'm middle of the road so it's hard for me to deal with either extreme.

  42. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    When will religionists stop threatening little children with their invisible hate filled gods? smile

    1. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree there is a propensity for religionists to thrash people into submission through this method.  I do believe in god but not religion and I find it a horrible practice.

      How can you preach an omnipotent being as loving and patient when on the other hand he will damn you to hell and the eternal fire for not believing as the teacher of it does?  Very hypocritical I agree.

    2. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      When the bible and religious teachings accept truth that their goal is a 1 conscience control.

      1. rhamson profile image76
        rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Well stated Marine!

        I don't know who said it but it has stuck in my mind for many years. It is a shame that Christ will be judged by the failings of his followers.  Many false prophets to wade through if you are searching?

  43. ddoingit1 profile image60
    ddoingit1posted 7 years ago

    Streams of Consciences Dreams
    Follow the Yellow brick Roads; streams of conscience dreams, in a worldly position, of Ceo with Tennis elbow.
    Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Hello of a morning night mirage, in a prayer of horror, form a mural, eulogy, forming mirrors, formulate evolutional morphing, horror, forming fort, forks pouring, forming more forms, a parasite more cellular morphing a cancerous cell a morphing silence, of forms, torch your fire, the cell of terror once worn,
    The conscience mind is the renaissance.
    If the battle of restrictions, of wrong or right, left or right, we would fight the hypocrisy, of the subjective nature, in the forums of streams of the extremes.
    The moral desire, is the design of moral, configuring moral formations beyond contemplations, as we grow older, we are the form, of moral forms, or we are the forms of moral thorns, for the world we know will form moral storms, if we form notions, of notions, reflecting deflection, immoral forms, we will create a world of desert storm.
    Humbug, the chairman once said to the notion every day a Christmas once mass.
    Gring scream once Christmas dreams, the forms once more the ghost of your moral form.
    Streams of conscience dreams the conscience mind will hold the test of time, the extreme means of desire resigns the moral streams of dreams.
    Silence the dreams of desire, and the hypocrisy, of evil, is the desire, of moral sociological forums.
    Darrell W. Morehouse 111
    http://ddoingit1.blogspot.com

  44. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    I see what you are saying. I also know that not all differences or debates on the subject matter needs to end in the mess it does here. My hubby and diverse friends debate and disagree alot, but we never fight about it. We just know each other better and appreciate the uniqueness.

    Again with my analogies....

    If I walked into a room full of tuba players with my clarinet...I would not tell the tuba players they have the wrong instrument. I should either enjoy the music or find the room where my clarinet would be welcome. But if I went to join a room with band with my clarinet, I would think all instruments could have a place in it.

    Does that make sense:)

    1. drej2522 profile image88
      drej2522posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      oh, I think it all makes sense and you make valid points. I just think people are animals! smile

      ..for some sad reason, it is easier to hate than love...argue than support...even if it is inappropriate. smile

  45. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Wouldn't that be like me saying all men are evil because my exhusband made a battered wife of me? Should I expect every man to defend himself because I am angry one man did that and that the system is slow to correct what I percieve as a personal wrong? If I sought all men out demanding they change I think they would form some valid notions. Eventually my anger would fall on deaf ears and their anger.

    Just so you know - I am not a religion, specifically the religion you have a beef against. Nor are you the man who wronged me. We are just different people sharing thoughts.

    Debating IF a religion or nonreligion is logical/absolute/faithbased/or whatever is not something I will ever do on this broader forum. I just want to have the right to communicate with others like me in the right place - the appropriate subtopic.

    For what it is worth, I do think and I do read all the posts, but I am not compelled to try to change anyone, nor do I want to change my beliefs. Looks like I'll be judged either way.

    I know who I am and what I believe. That I protect a valuable part of me from open attack ....makes me human like you.

    1. Bovine Currency profile image61
      Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I have no problem with that comment or you at all.  I'm not really sure we disagreed.  I believe in what I believe, I try not to use the word God because it seems to be inferred by many as a religious belief.  I wear a crucifix and I believe Jesus Christ did exist but I believe not only that his message has been lost but his spirit long gone and defaced by a church which spoils his name.  I am a humanist, an existentialist and a Christian but not the Christian of any church.  I am not a religionist and I argue the point in defense of Christ.  I believe Mohamed was much like Christ and a defender of Christ.  A protestor against evil but like Christ, his spirit lost.  Before Christ, I see religion as something much different.  A book resting on fables and magical thinking, some truth perhaps back there, at least more than the more recent Christian and Islamic movements.  Precisely, I mean to say the Old Testament means nothing to us now because it is so lost by its age alone.  It is just out of date.  I believe there are innocent Christians but it is that innocence that bothers me most.  The new Protestant movements scare me more than anything, the recruitment speed is alarming and the innocent are manipulated.  The innocent may be so but their actions can still harm and thus under the arm of religious instruction, the innocent are lost.

  46. Bovine Currency profile image61
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    On the point of this topic, I stand my opinion.  It is not either possible or reasonable to expect atheists to stay out of religious conversation.  Religion does concern us all, including non-believers.  h.a. borcich; I have not intended to offend you personally.  You seem intelligent enough but I can not quite grasp why this concept is so hard to understand.

    1. h.a.borcich profile image60
      h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      My only point is that if I go all the way to a specific forum subtopic: religion>christianity>whatever subtopic....I should have a measure of confidence not to be attacked that I am stupid for my beliefs. Just as you should have the same confidence in a specialized subtopic of your beliefs or nonbeliefs. Only when a post is put on broader scale open to broader participation would there be the fighting like goes on.Wouldn't that be better than what goes on?

      1. Bovine Currency profile image61
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I understand your sentiment but the point I was offering in return was simply that it will not happen.  There are people of both camps that make these forums as they are.  I was not trying to ridicule you but state the situation as I see it.  Happy posting smile

      2. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        HA, I think you're missing the point.  The general interest topics aren't designed to be exclusively for the use of one particular interest group.  They're ABOUT a particular interest, and are open to the whole HubPages community for all to participate.  So they're already on a "broader scale open to broader participation".  That applies to all the forums.

        If you want a Christian religious forum that is not open to anyone else, there are plenty of forums on places like Yahoo Groups, Google Groups and other forums where you have to apply to join.

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I hope this time they will understand.

  47. Bovine Currency profile image61
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    Religion is, always has been and always will be an arm of politics.

  48. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Bovine,
      You sound very sure of your beliefs and what you are not ok with. And I am sure I am not your enemy:) Friends?
      Have a great holiday! Holly

    1. Bovine Currency profile image61
      Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      We can be friends, no worries.  I have friends who are devout Pentacostal believers!  We just don't talk about it all that often smile

  49. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Bovinecurency said
       Religion already runs the biggest school yard and owns the biggest forums, it rests in our parliaments, our schools, our social services, the list goes on.  I am a Christian if anyone cares to know but I usually state otherwise, see I am anti-religion, very much so but I believe Christ died for a cause, he died for reason, for humanity and he did it all in vain.  The religion he fought survived and in turn, a bigger and nastier religion was born.  Christ never achieved his goals and his spirit continues to be raped to this day.  I believe we all have a right on this forum and the argument for athiesm is valid and its presence very welcome by me, a believer in God, a Christian.  I may not fit the mould of an athiest but I align with the system because it makes sense.

       You sound like me.  Except for the part about Jesus doin it for naught.  It is all going acording to prophesy.

  50. 0
    lyricsingrayposted 7 years ago

    when religious forums stop taunting Atheists

 
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