jump to last post 1-50 of 50 discussions (248 posts)

What is wrong with believing something by Faith?

  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago

    I see a lot of religionists trying to argue that their faith is not really faith. It is either "proven" because god found their car keys or whatever. Or the same as having faith that evolution happens because evolution was not videotaped as it happened. Or arguing that it is "rational" to believe in something that there is no empirical evidence for.

    Which leads me to suspect they feel there is a problem with believing by faith alone.

    So - what is wrong with believing by faith alone that leads you to try and justify it with semantics, because faith in a god is not the same as proof and any "rationalizing" needs to be done after the event, so to speak?

    Or do you genuinely think that because I "believe," we evolved without having seen every step of the process in person - this is the same as believing in your chosen god?

    1. rhamson profile image75
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know that there is anything wrong with believing something by faith.  I think everyone has a degree of it when you apply it to life.  Some invest a lot of money in a business on faith or hope that it will pan out for them.

      Proof of faith is something that is up to the individual. One persons victory can mean anothers defeat when trying to prove faith in a particular thing.

      When it comes to faith in a higher power such as God there are all kinds of proofs that can manifest themselves.  Say you pray for something to happen in your life and something else appears other than what you asked for that is just as good.  Is that faith being answered or is it coincidence?  It could be explained either way.  When asking for something another door may be opened instead.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        But what you gave said leads me once again to think that you think there is something wrong with believing solely by faith.

        What is wrong with believing by faith alone?

        1. rhamson profile image75
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I guess it did sound a bit veiled after I reread what I posted.  I guess there is nothing wrong in believing by faith alone if you can accept the results.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Now I am confused. "if you can accept the results"?

            To believe in a god - you must believe by faith alone. That much is obvious. Sure - you can justify it by saying almost anything you like, such as "birds prove there is a god," or "it seems the most reasonable," blah etc.........

            But I see you are dodging this also and trying to justify your beliefs rather than admit to just having faith.

            So - it seems there is something wrong with just having faith.

            What?

            1. rhamson profile image75
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I see what you are saying.  I was approaching it in a broader sense.

              Specifically I see it as faith is something you give over power to.  You cannot control it once it is given and the result is what you recieve. My saying that as long as you can accept the results is a testament to your faith in the power that you gave it to.

    2. kinder123 profile image73
      kinder123posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      A very nice thought.

    3. MikeNV profile image71
      MikeNVposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Faith is making a virtue out of not thinking.  People choose Faith in something then they shut down their minds and stop learning and stop growing.

      Anyone who investigates Quantum Physics and how and who we are on a microscopic scales is going to be rudely awakened by simple belief.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol, are you absolute on these comments or are they faith based? Did you use logic to put them together.

        I have both logic and faith, do you think I am more limited than you? How so? I would like your logical explanation without using faith.

    4. cheaptrick profile image73
      cheaptrickposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      In my search for the Truth that is comfortable for me I have simplified it to God Is-It seems like anything beyond that is filtered through people.Would you agree?

    5. profile image0
      lyricsingrayposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      nicely put - thanks

    6. Stimp profile image76
      Stimpposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The original question:  What's wrong with believing something by faith

      Answer:  Nothing.  Next question please.

    7. Rod Marsden profile image75
      Rod Marsdenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Bad as well as good can come out of faith. Nowadays we tend to see more of the bad on the news than the good. People who strap bombs to themselves and blow up groups of people they don't even know have faith. It is a twisted faith but still there.

      The people who destroyed the twin towers had faith. The crusader who coined the phrase 'Kill them all! Let God sought them out!' had faith. On the other hand there are people who pray for a job or for a better way of life for their children and they, too have faith. So there you have it. The good isn't quite as dramatic or as devastating as the bad. 

      1. fatfist profile image77
        fatfistposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, the people who brought down the towers had "absolute truth": the Koran, arguments from authority, heaven, 72 virgins, etc.

        This was NO faith to them. It was truth. And not just any old truth that you prove. It was "absolute": eternal, from Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that make up what is known as The Holy Quadrinity.

    8. Pr0metheus profile image60
      Pr0metheusposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'd say that this doesn't apply to all people.  I believe in god, yet I will argue against most believers on these forums because they mistake their beliefs with facts.

      I don't think the small percentage of believers you encounter are an accurate representation of the majority of believers.  (At least, I'd like to hope most believers aren't as dumb as some of the posts on these forums suggest...)


      P.S. It should be noted that I do not believe in the Judeo-Christian god.

      http://hubpages.com/hub/God-is-a-Sine-Wave

  2. prettydarkhorse profile image64
    prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago

    Good day Mr Mark!
    I have faith in GOD and I am a believer, and thats it. I know that I cant justify the existence of GOD but I still believe in my heart that He exists.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Oh yes - most of you are aggressively  adamant that GOD exists, but does that mean you believe by faith alone?

      1. prettydarkhorse profile image64
        prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I believe in faith alone

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Good for you. Probably why I do not see you arguing with us non-believers. wink

          1. prettydarkhorse profile image64
            prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I respect all the non believers and I want them to respect me too, I studied philosophy for four years and I cant find justification for the existence of GOD but I always feel it in my heart that there is a GOD!

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              OK - He doesn't have any rules for me to follow does He?

              1. prettydarkhorse profile image64
                prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                nothing for you because you are a non believer, but for me I am trying to live a life following the bible but I am trying to adapt also to the changing times, I mean my set of values and norms,

                This is just my opinion,

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  So - your bible is what? Not the word of god to be followed, but a set of guidelines you can adapt to suit?

                  And if you are trying to follow the bible - why?

                  1. prettydarkhorse profile image64
                    prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    No, I dont go for rituals like communion etc..I talk to him personally through prayers

                2. profile image0
                  cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  isn't she awesome? i just luv her smile

  3. Pearldiver profile image87
    Pearldiverposted 7 years ago

    So There!! lol

    1. Google Gal profile image59
      Google Galposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      yeah, so there! smile

  4. Pearldiver profile image87
    Pearldiverposted 7 years ago

    Interesting Question, when considered that way Mark! hmm
    Especially when it comes down to whether or not people actually have the ability to have tangible faith in themselves; prior to offering the belief to inherently less tangible assets and liabilities. smile

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It is an interesting question. Or at least I think so. I have been seeing a trend of people attempting to justify their belief with whatever reasons, but - I thought the act of having faith was an important part of believing in the christian and muslim gods.

      It might be one less point to argue over. I mean - If they say, I believe by faith alone, I have to say - OK - that means I am not expected to give any weight to that.

      But when they try and make this a "rational" decision, based on "proof," I will argue.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        That pretty much sums up how I feel about it too, smile

        1. glendoncaba profile image81
          glendoncabaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Hey u 2 bedfellows are back in religion forum with the same game. 

          History repeats.

          Wish i had time to participate but the way things r going I hardly have time to sleep.  And find it healthier play facebook scrabble for occasional break. 

          Let me interject an old issue:  I've been to the temples of Egypt and all I see are parallels which were manipulated by early missionaries.  No direct descent from Horus to Christology.  But I'm open to more info.

          The Sumerian angle is worthy of more investigation.  But you know we will 'by faith' (and some archaeology) come back to the Biblical story as source.

      2. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Sola Fidei is not a doctrine all Christians share, however.

  5. myownworld profile image81
    myownworldposted 7 years ago

    I do agree with you completely. I was born muslim by birth...and over the years it's not so much the orthodox version of Islam itself, but the 'reasons' why most muslims believed that took me so far away from Islam or any other 'formal' Religion for that matter. 
    if only people believed because it was a feeling born of love and something meant for their personal lives.... but most muslims I lived with followed it because they 'HAD' to....that they had textual proof declaring it to be the 'right' path. And worse, it was their god given right to preach and prove it to others!

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      In that sense many bible believing so called christians do the same, smile The quoran and bible can be used to justify any prejudicial belief.

      1. myownworld profile image81
        myownworldposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        smile yes, that is exactly what put me off ANY religion: if you want to believe, do so, but for god's sake, keep it to yourself...why do they have to impose it on others...or even publicly talk about it?  nothing is more uninspiring....

        1. profile image0
          Justine76posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I was raised in a religion that commanded public declaration.

        2. tantrum profile image59
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Agreeing with you both !
          Hi friends ! smile

    2. profile image59
      (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      How can that be? Are you saying that the day your were born, you completely understood the Quran, the Hadith and you accepted Allah?

      Don't you mean you were born of Muslim parents but you yourself were not a Muslim yet?

  6. topgunjager profile image60
    topgunjagerposted 7 years ago

    believing in faith gives you a one track mind thus making you ignore other things that makes sense no matter what evidence is thrown in your face=)

    1. topgunjager profile image60
      topgunjagerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      just like when p diddy said thet notorious b.i.g. was one of the greatest nicest, kindest people in the world. the movie about his life showed that he is a drug dealing, lying cheating son of a bit__, but hey, that's what puffy wanted to believe=)

    2. AceOfSpace profile image56
      AceOfSpaceposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      People tend to do this anyway. It takes a certain maturity or awakening to enjoy the thrill of discovery more than the security of "being right."

  7. kirstenblog profile image74
    kirstenblogposted 7 years ago

    I do not see anything wrong with believing in something by faith. It just gets forgotten that this is faith we are talking about here. Not everyone has that same feeling of faith and if they don't have that faith then they will not believe, no matter how strongly you feel it to be true your faith will always be yours alone and not something that can be forced on others.

  8. Jerami profile image74
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I think that the foundation of every kind of knowledge and beliefs  is faith. We begin with faith in the person that first started teaching us. Before we can become a mathematician we first have to have faith in the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. The practice of faith begins blindly.
       After some point we are supposed to stop and re-evaluate the things that we have already learned. Do this for two reasons, One, to decide if we are on the right path to reach "OUR" desired destination, and secondly to see what information has been inadvertently or purposefully omitted.
       This is my argument against interpretation of prophetic scripture. It is said that something is always lost in translation. So how much more is lost in Interpretation???
       Our mind automatically interprets everything that we read and hear before filing those facts away. So, to interpret an interpretation of an interpretation is just WRONG.
       By that time can we really have faith in our own judgments
    that have been concluded from interpretations of interpretations???
       Yes I'm messed up... But .. Aren't we all??

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      And another one dodging the question. wink

      Here you are proving my point that people who believe in god try and justify it using semantic arguments rather that admit to just having faith.

      So - what is wrong with saying you believe by faith alone?

      1. Jerami profile image74
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

           I guess I wasn't clear enough so I will say  emphatically
           "YES"  my beliefs are based upon Faith alone ...           as is everyone else's, regardless of what those beliefs are.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          LOL

          You had to put a rider on didn't you? A belief in a god is different to a belief that the electric light will come on when I flip the switch.

          Why? What is wrong with admitting you believe by faith alone?

          1. topgunjager profile image60
            topgunjagerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            believing by faith alone is closing your mind to other possibilities, when people believe in something they tend to fight for it regardless of right or wrong and whatever evidence is thrown in their faces, even make up stuff just to support their beliefs which is corrupt and perverted, maybe having an idea is better? it keeps your mind open to other things and not always so sure of something that cannot be proven in this planet which can mislead a lot of people=)

            1. rhamson profile image75
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I don't think you can make the claim that you close your mind to possiblities if you believe the result of your faith is best for you.  Now directing your will on others to inflict your faith on others is not faith but manipulation.

              1. topgunjager profile image60
                topgunjagerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                manipulation is what religion and faith brings, how can you even apply it to other belief systems my friend=)

                1. rhamson profile image75
                  rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I would agree that religion can be a great manipulation of faith. But faith alone is not based on religion.  It's something you place on God or whatever else you believe in.

                  1. topgunjager profile image60
                    topgunjagerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    religion is how faith came to be=)

          2. Jerami profile image74
            Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

               OK I'll say it a bit more clear.  Yes my beliefs as to Gods existence are built upon faith alone.
              However blind faith is not the totality of my belief system

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              And once again you have to add a rider.

              Still - you are saying that you do not believe by faith alone.

              So - what is wrong with just having faith?

              1. Jerami profile image74
                Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this
                1. Jerami profile image74
                  Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I can not answer your seemingly simple question with a five word answer. The question is not as simple as it may appear.
                  A truthful answer can be whittled down to   YES  or NO  and maintain any integrity. I've answered to the best of my ability.
                    Is the whole of my belief in God standing on blind faith alone ? NO
                    Is it's foundation based upon blind faith?  YES

                     I'm putting balljoints on my truck today so I will be in and out.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    OK - No pressure. wink

                    But you really missed the point of my question.

                    It is clear to me that all the believers I meet claim to have some justification other than faith for believing.

                    It does not matter to me what that justification is. What matters is that is comes after the blind faith.

                    I am asking why you need to find some other justification, because that implies there is something wrong with believing by faith alone.

                    What is wrong with believing in faith alone?

  9. topgunjager profile image60
    topgunjagerposted 7 years ago

    having faith alone gives you a 1 track mind=)

    1. rhamson profile image75
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Only if you require specific results to prove it.

      1. topgunjager profile image60
        topgunjagerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        true but faith is also being used on other things not just on religion so it gets corrupted in a way=)

        1. rhamson profile image75
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Absolutely.  Kind of the human conundrum.

  10. Sanctus Vesania profile image61
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    Yes, you could say that I believe in God by faith alone.  I am also very well aware that this faith is God given, and that not everyone has it.

    Which is why I don't try to soul-win people to Jesus.

  11. topgunjager profile image60
    topgunjagerposted 7 years ago

    having faith in god is closing your mind to the "possibility" that there is no god=)

    1. rhamson profile image75
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Just because you have faith in God does not mean you have a closed mind.  If you entertain the idea that there is no God then you delude yourself in your faith in God.  And that is no faith.  Faith again is something you give.  If you find that you have lost your faith then you have taken it back.

  12. kirstenblog profile image74
    kirstenblogposted 7 years ago

    I kinda got the impression that God does not want to prove Him/Herself and as such any belief in God must be faith based because of this hands off approach of God?

  13. Jane@CM profile image60
    Jane@CMposted 7 years ago

    Faith for me is a belief in many different aspects. I don't belong to a certain "religion" i.e. Catholic, Lutheran, etc.

    If I had blind faith, that might tell me that my husband would find a job without looking because God is taking care of us, or my daughter will automatically make the dean's list by faith alone & not studying, because God is taking care of her, or my son won't break bones again snowboarding because he has faith that God will keep him safe, or that my turnkey will cook to perfection tomorrow because God is taking care of it.

    I can't argue or justify my beliefs, because I am human and I question, I question a lot.  But I do have faith, I will never pretend that it will get me through the day, again I'm human...I also have hope. 

    It doesn't answer Mark's question, but close enough for this less than perfect person that I am. smile

    1. rhamson profile image75
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Good answer! smile

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No - I am not going as far as that. Just the belief that there is a god is complex enough.

      I also do not see you arguing with the non-believers. Because you do not argue or justify your beliefs.

      I guess, after my hub/rant about the christian religion, I am trying to ascertain what the bone of contention between us non believers and the believers is and what it is that causes so much conflict.

      And it seems to be the point at which people try and justify their beliefs. You tell me you believe by faith alone and I have no say in what you believe because it is strictly a matter of faith between you and your god.

      The moment you try and justify it and persuade me it is a rational or considered judgment based on proof or some other empirical data is the moment we are going to clash - because that is then telling me that it applies to me also.

      And I am genuinely interested to find out what it is that drives people to justify what can only be a faith-based belief. Because I think this is where the clash begins.

      1. Jane@CM profile image60
        Jane@CMposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Well you won't get any argument from me or trying to persuade you or anyone else what to believe in.  I have too many loved ones in my life who a)are atheist b)Christian c) believe or pray only when life hits the rocks or d) don't know if they even have faith.  I love them for the person inside.  I have faith in each individual that they are happy with who they are. Maybe my faith isn't God-based, just my own human based.  This is why I won't go into the forums to argue, I can't justify it.

        We once attended a couples retreat and the weekend was a "hope" theme.  A retired pastor and his wife were there and he basically told me I shouldn't hope for anything and he would have argued with me until the sun came up....I just about went home.  One of the reason's why I don't argue.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well, there is something to be said for keeping your expectations low to avoid disappointment. lol

          1. Jane@CM profile image60
            Jane@CMposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            You are a very intuitive person - you hit the nail on the head.  While this could be served better in a different forum topic, you are right.  I do set my expectations low (for myself) to avoid disappointment.  This may require a therapy session lol

        2. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I think I have a good idea of why atheist want to dismiss the bible and religion along with myself. It is separatism of belief that teaches the illusion that it unifies. I think it also contradicts an individual mind to form it's own belief.

          1. rhamson profile image75
            rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I know that the drone of preaching and damnation has taken a toll on me and my beliefs in trying to live a spiritual life but one I struggle to maintain nevertheless.  Are there doubts along the way? Sure. But I endeavor to overcome them as I see a light that may be dim at times.  Do I always like what is revealed to me? Not likely. But I do look for the lesson and hope that my path is true for myself. I may strive to live a spiritual life but my humanity seems to be at odds with it sometimes.

  14. h.a.borcich profile image59
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Mark I think that is how it goes too.

    I have read that all wars come down to one fact: two men disagree.

    Maybe these wars aren't much different?

    Just a thought not intended to upset anyone.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree. This is why - after a lot of thought, I am trying to ascertain why people feel the need to justify a faith based belief. Because - and it seems you agree - that is the point at which they are trying to apply it to me. I mean - if they made a rational decision - then I did not. wink

  15. rhamson profile image75
    rhamsonposted 7 years ago

    @Mark Knowles

    I really do applaud your efforts to get to the bottom of this question you pose.  I think it has been conducted in a clearly scientific and logical progression and am sorry that the answer eludes you.  I only say that it eludes you because you have not recieved the answer you seek by your still posing the questions and not due to a judgement I may have unintentionally implied.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe I am just not asking it in the right way. I will try again. But thanks. smile

  16. h.a.borcich profile image59
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    Hi Mark,

      Sometimes my analogies are "out there" but it is the best my chemo brain can pull off, so bear with me ok?

    When my job was forcibly taken from me because of my health, I had to come to terms with who I was now that my career was gone.
    When I lost numerous body parts I had to reevaluate how I percieved myself physically. My point is that when we take a major hit to an important facet of who we believe we are - we get knocked off balance. While we are coming to terms with it we are more sensitive and quick to defend. And it is intense.

    I think both sides have taken some brutal hits on this forum and remain in that coming to terms mode. And they take no time to get ok with themselves before the next war. Just a thought.

    I did come to terms with what is left of me physically, but I think I should get a huge discount on my MRIs now as there are so few organs to see! OT I know smile

    1. rhamson profile image75
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I hope all works out for you.  I have a mother who is also losing parts to her fight.  Her prognosis is good but it is tiring for her nevertheless.

      1. h.a.borcich profile image59
        h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I hope all works out for you.  I have a mother who is also losing parts to her fight.  Her prognosis is good but it is tiring for her nevertheless.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Sorry your mom is having to deal with such a fight and glad her prognosis is good. It is one tiring fight. If I can ever be of help just let me know.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      LOL well - it sounds as though the organ that does the thinking is still there. smile

  17. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 7 years ago

    I think I deserve a "touche"! No?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No. big_smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't make any solid points just now?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Of course they are valid points, but I think the condescending manner in which you applied them lost you a few points. lol

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Have I contradicted myself? Maybe I stated them that way to get an emotional reaction out of you. No disrespect.

            I will give credit where it is due. Thank You for admitting that I had some valid points.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Well - you are contradicting yourself by first of all stating that there are no absolutes and then saying that you believe you can show an absolute.

              And I know whey you presented them the way you did. Almost had me convinced you had been saved. wink

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Mark, I never said I could prove anything absolute, I only say I can prove something logically flawless. Why? Because I have faith that I can put together a logical comment and not have it proved wrong without faith. Proof before your eye's that logic and faith works together along with the faith in your pride and beliefs. There is no emotion, arrogance, or pride in my belief unless I believe there is.

                lol @ last comment. I'm going to leave that one alone.

  18. livelonger profile image89
    livelongerposted 7 years ago

    There is nothing wrong with believing something through faith alone. In the absence of enough knowledge about something as incomprehensible as the origins of existence, and the inability of even human logic to explain something as paradoxical as it, then until human discovery provides answers, people should be allowed to believe whatever they want.

    But since it's just belief, then there is no "knowing" and it's not fact. It's just personal belief and you should keep it to yourself. There's nothing quite as obnoxious as someone telling you to believe something without any reason other than it's their belief (and I'm not an atheist myself).

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      So what do you think drives people to attempt to justify a faith based belief with some other support?

  19. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    Hey Mark,

    Your dubious question- What is wrong with believing something by Faith?

    What is wrong about doing it? There isn't anything wrong with supporting something by faith, as long as, you have objective factual evidence to support your faith.

    Remember, 'faith' is a form of belief system, all on it's own, other than a normal beliefs. These are two separate things, combined to appear as one.

    A belief is believed as true or truth. The formation of building the basis for a belief has to come from factual evidential truth.(that's how it is suppose to be done)

    You can have faith in a person, or yourself. This is because you have evidence, either on the other person, because you've seen what they can do, so you have faith in them or their ability to do something. You can faith in yourself and your ability. But, to have faith in something you yourself cannot tell if 'real' or not, is absurd and could be detrimental to an individual's life or duration of life.

    I hope that you found your answer.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      But that is not faith. Maybe I should re-word the question?

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Are you under the assumption that faith is blindful at all times?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No - I am under the assumption that religious faith needs to be blind, and I has also understood that having faith without proof was a desirable trait in the bit 3 religions.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            So, in essence, NOT all faith is to be blindful, just religious faith has to be blindful. This I will agree with.

            The religious faith has to be blindful, because it requires the free will, to take a back-seat, per se, and accept 'claims' of others as truth.

            Faith is also a sort of emotion. Your faith is only challenged in the midst of adversity, which is cause and effect, related.

            Please remember- my position is from knowing and understanding, Life's absolutes, which is based on morals of human beings.

            Emotionals are NOT moral or immoral. They are amoral. Emotions are automatically swayed by 'cause and effect'. Something has to happen to them or to someone they know or something they see...which is the caused, for whatever their reaction(emotion) is to come(the effect).

            Any chosen action that is beneficial to the human organism or to society, is moral right or good.

            Any chosen action that harms the human organism or society, is moral wrong or bad.

  20. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago

    Well, I would go so far as to say I am not interested in morals etc as far as this discussion goes. Merely why people who have faith in a god - which is unprovable - feel the need to justify it by comparing it to other types of faith which are based on direct observations.

    I have faith that the brakes in my car are going to work, but I have used the car for some time, get it serviced regularly and trust my mechanic to have done the work he charged me for.

    That is not the same as believing a god exists.

    1. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'm sorry. I had to interject 'morals' into the subject matter, because it is the underlying factor, which isn't being taken into account. Your question- "What is WRONG with believing something by faith?" is subjected to what one person considers morally right or morally wrong.

      I was trying to set the basis and standard for morals, so you could better gauge, whether or not, what is wrong with believing something by faith.

      If your individual perception of what is right or wrong, doesn't follow the absolute standard for moral right and wrong, then everything else is false, or based on illconceived reasoning.

      I'll leave it alone, and go my merry way and leave you to discuss this with others. Because, if you're not going to address the underlying problem, then all the rest won't make sense and you'll get no answers.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        My individual perception is that most believers appear to think that it is WRONG to believe by faith alone.

        I draw this conclusion from how often they prefer to claim that they do not. I merely asked the question.

        "What is wrong with believing something by faith?"

        I was not aware of an absolute standard for moral right and wrong - or even if that would apply in this case.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I know, not too many people are aware of the standard of morals, because 'religion' exists and 'government' exists, so as to demonstrate what is wrong or right. The people have been told there are no absolutes for mankind, but when investigated further, I found "Life" to have those two moral absolutes.

          Just like truth, is another absolute. Truth is factual evidence. This is not subjective to what one believes to be true. Truth is absolute, because it's backed by real factual evidence.

          In my other investigative research, I also found the 'basis' for religion's existence, when it came to be, how it came to be and what belief it was formed/founded on.

          Religion is a business. It is based on a CODE of 'ethics', determined by a supposed 'god'(no one know what god's will or even if there is a god), bound to a 'higher' cause.

          That concludes that 'religion' is man-made and not real, but set a standard for morals, without admitting any absolutes exist.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Well, while taht is an interesting - if unsupported - and you know my opinion on "esoteric" knowledge - point.

            What does that have to do with my question about why people feel the need to justify their faith based belief in a god?
            I am well aware that religion and god is man made, but still. Maybe a new thread?

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I would say that they hope so much that their faith in 'god' is justified, because they want to believe in 'god', but can't because they themselves have no actual proof he exists.

              But, see all 'accusations' against 'god', as an attack on their faith and are compelled to engage the people supposedly attacking 'god'. So, they defend 'god', against others, so they can feel better about themselves. For whatever it is worth.

              There is nothing wrong with believing something by faith, as long as that 'what' is supported by truth, and not fiction.

              1. profile image0
                Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Faith is the truth; the absolute truth.

                1. Cagsil profile image60
                  Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Not true at all. Faith is an emotion. It's not based on any facts, whatsoever.

                  1. Cagsil profile image60
                    Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Faith is subjective to what one person's perceives as truth.

                    Truth is factual evidence. Religious faith is based on no facts, hence no truth.

                  2. profile image0
                    Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    And you are a scientist?

              2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                But - here we go again. If it is supported by truth or fact, that is not religious faith. It is the other type of faith, and better called knowledge.

                1. profile image0
                  Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Your angle on that thought is dead on.

                2. Cagsil profile image60
                  Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Correct.

                  1. profile image0
                    Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    How bout that? Another agreement, hmmmm..

  21. Lisa HW profile image81
    Lisa HWposted 7 years ago

    There are the things we/mankind know about the world and the universe; and if there is a God I don't think He'd want people to disregard what man has learned by using his logical mind to figure out (science).  People who don't understand the science behind what is now known (with regard to something like evolution) just equate it with "yet another kind of faith", rather than seeing what is understood as as real as, say, the fact that I'm wearing brown shoes right now.

    Someone in my home can see that I'm wearing brown shoes, and I could take a picture (theoretically - I don't have a good enough web cam) and show everyone here that the shoes are reality, a fact.  If people can't see pictures on their PC's for some reason, they aren't going to be able to know for sure that the brown-shoe thing is true.  (It's not the fault of the rest of us if someone can't see pictures and can't be sure, and you can't blame someone for not wanting to believe what I say about my shoe color; then again, you can kind of "have an opinion" if they won't consider the fact that they're the ones who can't see the picture but that so many others have seen the brown shoes.)  So, that's how scientific reality works.

    Then there's what there may be beyond the Universe and/or in some other realm.  That's something that, as far as I and many other people are concerned, nobody who has ever walked the Earth has ever known/understood.  That's where faith comes in, and people either choose to have faith, choose to be open faith, or not.  Yes, this goes against the famous books and the belief in prophets and whoever else said they "knew"; but sometimes it isn't just non-believers who don't buy what other human beings have written in books a millennium or so ago.  Sometimes it's also people who, themselves, have a strong faith and their own sense of connection to "whoever may be out there".

    I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone having faith - simple faith and belief that there is something greater "out there"; and I don't think that has to conflict with the provable facts mankind now recognizes about the Universe.  There's a difference between faith in a higher power and faith in other human beings who wrote books and/or who claim to know better than others what God wants and doesn't want.

    I think faith in a higher power, based on nothing but faith, can be a wonderful thing.  What I don't think much of is faith in other human beings who have claimed, or who are believed to be, "special" in terms of being privy to what God thinks or wants.  Whether or not a lot of people with faith end up being like the disappointed Linus in the pumpkin patch may not even matter, because they won't be aware of it when Halloween night is over.  As for atheists, if they turn out to be wrong I can't help but think God would understand that that's what happens when you keep yourself a mystery and leave people to sort this stuff out for themselves.  To me, the truest form of faith is the kind people just decide to have, or have found their own way to having.  Anything less is just believing what other human beings have told them to believe.  (There, I've finally given in to the urge to add my own two cents - or should I say, "two dollars' worth - on the religion forum.  hmm )

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Got you out of your shell at last huh?

      I agree with what you said but cut it for brevity (to  2 cents) lol

    2. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I have both logic and faith that you have an excellent possibly unlimited mind!

  22. profile image0
    Denno66posted 7 years ago

    Okay, so there is NO God, then?

  23. AdsenseStrategies profile image68
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    The trick is to to decipher:

    (a) which things to believe on faith,

    (b) which things to believe only after a fair amount of analysis, and, most importantly of all,

    (c) which things are barely worth the time to think about at all, period.

    I am completely mystified, for example, why it is so important to creationists that their position on the origins of the earth, and of Man, be proven correct, and evolution wrong... I don't understand what it has to with the price of fish! I mean, frankly, even if it turns out that God created the world in 4004 BC, and in seven days, I still wouldn't believe that Jesus was my personal saviour -- for one thing, Muslims and Jews (or at least, some of them), also believe in the account of Genesis... yet are still not Christians!

    On the other hand, whether or not the Buddha discovered a method, or science, of the mind, whereby it is possible to become detached from suffering, and from unnecessary emotions (or, for that matter, beliefs :-) ), seems a question worth investigating. And I might be inclined to continue to believe in this practice, or "religion," even if it could be shown that the Buddha never actually existed...

    In short, of those things worth even thinking about at all, there are indeed those things we must take on faith, and those things we should not.

    I can take on faith (i.e., I cannot "prove" it) that it is more important to stop the spread of AIDS than it is to preserve the sacredness of sperm-egg reproduction. However, I cannot take on faith whether or not HIV-AIDS is transmitted via sexual intercourse: either it is, or it isn't...

  24. fatfist profile image77
    fatfistposted 7 years ago

    What is wrong with believing something by Faith?

    Nothing. Faith is a human quality which all humans possess. It is the belief that something is the case when there is no objective reason to believe so. Also known as blind belief.

    You are confident that your car's brakes will work fine today, not because of faith, because of objective belief. They have always worked fine in the past, you service them often. This is objective. Faith is when you haven't any reasoning to induce from.

    People have faith they won't get attacked by a shark while diving. There is nothing objective here and no proof either. Just blind belief.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I am not so sure this is a good analogy.

      I would say - based on my own experiences - that - very few people get attacked by sharks while diving and diving is a pleasurable experience that is worth the perceieved risk of a shark attack.

      If 9 out of 10 divers were attacked by sharks - you would probably find a lot less divers. smile

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol lol lol

      2. fatfist profile image77
        fatfistposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, dive clubs will take you to locations they know. But the point is that nobody has any objective data that diving into unchartered waters will give you any assurance. Of course this doesn't mean you will get attacked either. It's this unknown scenario that allows you to establish the blind belief that you won't or will get attacked. I know people that won't dive in such locales. Everybody has their own faith.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I call it risk awareness.

          If they had faith they would absolutely not be attacked - it would not be anywhere near as much fun. wink

  25. profile image0
    Denno66posted 7 years ago

    Hmmm, fatfist that didn't sound religious......

    1. fatfist profile image77
      fatfistposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well it doesn't need to be. Faith doesn't care where we apply it. You often hear of people hating the word "faith". Many don't realize that all humans have faith in a lot of things outside of their control.

      1. profile image0
        Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, I agree. But, there are some here in the HP that believe that faith is alot like religion in that it cannot be proven by fact.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          We are making a distinction between religious faith and faith by observable data. wink

  26. profile image0
    Denno66posted 7 years ago

    Sigh.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Aww. Were you wanting to say that blind faith with no evidence is the same as trusting your car's brakes because you serviced them yesterday?

      1. profile image0
        Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Seems alot easier than having to find absolutes in everything all the time big_smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I guess.

          But who said "easy" was a worthwhile pursuit?

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            True enough. lol

          2. profile image0
            Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I didn't but, the effort is not always worth the result.

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Hmmm.....sounds like laziness or a lack of will to seek out truth, so understanding(wisdom) can be gained. And, sounds like a lousy way to live life. Sorry, that's my conclusion, from what I've learned about you, as a person and knowing what I know about life.

              No offense. big_smile

              1. profile image0
                Denno66posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                None taken. It's not laziness. Just call it a different life path. Humanity is not a Stepford Wives scenario, everyone is unique, therefore they do not follow a set pattern of guidance. Knowledge comes in many forms, not just that of your clean, analytical world. But, march on, my friend, to your lifepath, it seems to work for you big_smile

                1. Cagsil profile image60
                  Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  big_smile

  27. Don W profile image82
    Don Wposted 7 years ago

    I think you’ve already hit the nail on the head. Two different theories of knowledge. Evidentialism vs divine revelation. As you know evidentialism is the idea that belief is only justified depending on the evidence that supports it. So these two approaches are mutually exclusive. The latter can’t be considered justified by the criteria of the former.

    Why do some theists go out of their way to try to justify their belief by the criteria of evidentialism? Three reasons I think: 1)  evidentialism is a common every-day approach to knowledge, which leads to 2) the mistaken belief that theism needs to be justified according to evidentialism to be deemed justified, which leads to 3) trying to address this by providing “evidence”.

    This is a failure on the part of some theists to understand that theism is based on a different approach to knowledge and therefore (whether or not it is accepted as a useful approach) does not need to be justified by an evidentialist criterion. What compounds the issue further is that theists can also hold beliefs about the natural world based on evidence, as per scientific method. There is nothing in theism that is opposed to the practice of science. Theists just don’t accept that this is the only valid approach to knowledge.

    So confusion can (and often does) reign in the form of theists offering evidence for certain theistic beliefs, creationism is an example. That’s when the proverbial hits the fan and evidentialists (as well as sensible theists) go mental. Because what results (see creationism) is essentially an attempt to change the nature and scope of science.

    So in a nutshell I think the answer is that many theists (and non theists) don’t realise that theistic belief does not have to be justified in evidentialist terms in order to be considered justified in epistemological terms, or put in another way: some people don’t get that you don’t always have to be able to provide evidence for holding a belief for you to be justified in doing so.

  28. profile image0
    Denno66posted 7 years ago

    Bingo.

  29. underhiswings profile image56
    underhiswingsposted 7 years ago

    Honestly, I suppose that I did not have faith to believe in God.

    Knowing this, He simply appeared to me several times over a 30 year period and it ended the need for faith to know who God is.

    This does not happen to most, but then again, most have faith, I did not.

  30. yoshi97 profile image82
    yoshi97posted 7 years ago

    Faith is the belief in something without need for proof ... which makes it the essence of many things. Mark has hit the head on the pin here, and I think believers and non-believers alike can learn from this.

    As Mark is seen as a non-believer, then I think I will appeal to the religionists first by saying that - to many of us - science is faith. Allow me to explain ...

    A scientists tells us that the Earth is round. Now, not many of us can perform the calculations to confirm this and even further have been off the Earth to look down and see the absolute proof.

    Of course, there are pictures from space, but any could argue that these are all fake, designed to make fools of us and to make us believe that the Earth is actually round. As we do not prove it ti ourselves, we accept that the Earth is flat, through faith in our scientists.


    The same goes for the Bible... We read the many passages and accept what is written as fact, and yet, none of us ever witnessed any of it. We don't need to - we accept it all by faith.


    ANYTHING you do not prove to yourself is accepted by faith, and any time you try to offer facts to prove something (using data you have not personally collected and recorded yourself) you are merely expressing faith in those that created the data for you and expressing your continued faith in their observations.


    We as a species NEED faith to move forward as we would stifle in creativity if we had to personally verify every fact we came across. Think I'm wrong? Consider this ...


    This time, I will strike at religion first:

    For the Bible to be absolutely true, then every event must be audibly and visually recorded, otherwise it's hearsay. Of course, we know that's impossible so religion can only be accepted through faith.

    As for science:

    We would need to conduct every experiment ourselves that proves everything we know. We would need to live eons to witness events that take forever to conclude. We would need to have recordings of the past to absolutely be certain our theories of what has passed were correct.

    The whole concept of anyone using the studies of others to back up your faith is a bunch of bilge, as they merely are producing data collected by others and none of their own. As such, any data could be conjured, misunderstood, or manipulated to fulfill the desired end. And while any of us would like to believe that those who pass the knowledge onto us are above that ... history has shown they are not.


    Faith is what a person chooses to believe in, requiring only that it only make sense and fit into their beliefs. As such, religion is not faith ... religion is a byproduct of faith ... as is science.

    And, as religion is a unified belief in a certain perceived truth ... men of science are every bit as religious as those men of God.

    When will we learn ... what believers call God ... non-believers call nature ... and both sides are in awe of what creation has brought upon us. That's why we study it and try to understand it. We all want to know the burning answer to the question ...

    Does our existence hold a purpose?

    Ask yourself that question and you will begin to understand your beliefs are not all that different than those around you ... as that is the foundation for all faiths ... and all beliefs. smile

  31. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 7 years ago

    I think the key to finding logical truth is logical thought and then faith in that logical thought. I think it is contradiction to truth to put faith before logical thought.


    Agreements, Disagreements?

  32. AEvans profile image68
    AEvansposted 7 years ago

    Oh Mark not again, I believe and nothing will ever change that, I do not need proof you see I have God in my heart and you could not imagine the love that I feel just because of that, can't you please give this a rest? sad

  33. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 7 years ago

    I have faith that anything is possible. Anything less would be absolute. I wrote this using logic as well.

  34. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I have been having "god helping me" for a long time. Lots of scrapes with death and danger in my life, near fatal cancer and other life events should have shortened my life but did not.
    Life just presents what I need sometimes and when it happens I know I am "in tune" with something in myself or the universe at that time.
    I do not then need to leap to a belief in an invisible entity to explain these experiences. smile

  35. Jerami profile image74
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I have never been; but if I had been picked up by a UFO and carried around the Galaxy twice. I would come to the logical conclusion and by Faith express to those that I choose to share this experience with, I know that I will never be able to PROVE by LOGIC  the truth to any one else, that by faith I know this thing to be true,  And by these means, are the only truth that a sceptic will ever see. Can I Whittle this truth down to five words or less????  NO

  36. yoshi97 profile image82
    yoshi97posted 7 years ago

    Now here's the big ultimate question ... does it matter what the other man believes?

    Now, don't take that as a slap ... it's a question meant to spark a revelation. Allow me to assist ...

    John doesn't believe in God but Matt does. Now, if Matt ignores John's disbelief does he lose a possibility of going to Heaven. According to what I read ... no ... failure to convert anyone does not lead one to damnation.

    The same thing goes with science.

    If Matt believes in gravity but John doesn't, will Matt float away from the Earth?


    You see ... this is the basic concept no one seems to want to get. The belief of another has NO impact on you. So, if someone thinks differently it does no harm to yourself.

    But what of others, you ask?

    To think that someone can convert others when they could not convert you is to see your fellow man as extremely mentally weak. After all, can't others decide belief for themselves?


    Now, here's where I'm at with things ... We can all discuss what we believe, but I think it incredibly crass and rude for each of us to TELL each other what to think or that the other person is thinking incorrectly.

    Again, I go back to the truth that nothing a person says will convert your belief unless you chose to subscribe to what they say, which means - even if the other person is totally wrong - no harm is done.


    So, let's experiment ... and I am TELLING you this is an experiment, so no trickery here. This is how it will work.

    I am telling you that you can teleport from your house to New York City by truly believing it can happen and holding the letters N, Y, and C down on your keyboard.

    Now, I read in a book this can happen and I checked on the internet and verified it was so. I have tried it myself, but it doesn't work for me because I don't believe enough to make it happen or because I don't have the dexterity to press all three at exactly the same time. However, I have heard others say they did it in the past so I'm a believer.

    So, I ask, does anyone believe as I do or do you need proof?

    And for anyone who finds that question ridiculous ask yourself this ... how ridiculous must it sound to others when you express beliefs to them that they can't begin to subscribe to or comprehend? As a bonus question ... how many times will you have to refute what I just told you to be certain no one else buys into 'my lie'?


    Anything accepted without physically proving it to yourself ... not by reading a book, not by performing internet research, not by watching a documentary ... by you actually witnessing it occur before your own eyes ... anything you do not physically verify is accepted by faith.

    If you still chose not to believe me then teleport to New York City with me and we'll discuss it in person, eh?

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "You see ... this is the basic concept no one seems to want to get. The belief of another has NO impact on you. So, if someone thinks differently it does no harm to yourself."

      You are wrong. Most faiths create separative belief systems with the occasional 9/11 attackers or Jim Jones of the world. Extremist faiths have a huge impact when their faith involve killing others with different belief than theirs.

      Did you forget about that one?

      1. yoshi97 profile image82
        yoshi97posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Those people believed because they wanted to believe. People who are strong in their beliefs can't be swayed ... that's why those men crashed those planes on 911, even though they had no proof that there were infidels in those buildings ... and that's why Jim Jones followers drank the poison when they had no real proof that the world was about to end.

        Faith is what a person is willing to believe without proof. For someone to accept anothers beliefs ... regardless of how wacky they might seem ... they must already have agreed with it in their heart before they heard it.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Faith is what a person wants to believe. The same as the extremist. Willing and want are the same thing. If they are willing to believe something, they want to believe it.

        2. prettydarkhorse profile image64
          prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Yoshi, of course you believe first then you have faith, for example you write something about what you think will bring you more clicks, or you believe or a hunch that many people are going to read about it, thats why you write about a topic? You have faith that you can earn money from google adsense because you are writing about them,

          1. yoshi97 profile image82
            yoshi97posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            An excellent analogy and right on target. smile

  37. profile image0
    BookFlameposted 7 years ago

    From an evolutionary standpoint, I think we are wired with a need to believe in  a power greater than us.  Studies show that people who do are healthier, actually.  This is not at all the same thing as the stuff espoused by "religionists."  It's a quiet surety, not a loud-mouth intolerance.

    1. wyanjen profile image87
      wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree that faith improves health. The more, the better. But faith does not have come from belief in a deity.

      I don't agree that people are wired to believe in a greater power. I think people have a curiosity and need to know things that can't be necessarily understood. One name for it is the god gap. God is given credit for creating or causing things that people can't understand because people need to have an answer or an explanation.

      Here is a very rough example: Man once thought the moon was a god. When we discovered what the moon actually is, we then said god created it. When we discovered how it actually was created, we said god caused it to be created.

      All the little unknown gaps are filled with god, and as science advances, god's involvement is adapted.

      I'm a non-believer but I have no issue with the god gap concept. I do have a problem with folks who would still argue that the moon is a god, despite the science. smile

      What is wrong with believing something by faith?
      When a person stops asking questions because of their faith, then is something wrong.
      When a person ignores reality because it contradicts their faith, something is very wrong.

      If somebody finds peace and well being because of a personal belief in god, there is nothing wrong with that at all.
      But if you try to turn it into a team sport, you might find that we don't all want to play. smile

    2. mohitmisra profile image55
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Intelligence understands its limitations, there are greater forces at work. smile

      1. wyanjen profile image87
        wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        God gap smile

      2. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Intelligence has no limitations.

        1. profile image59
          (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I would disagree. At first, it may seem such that indeed intelligence has no boundaries. But, the human mind can only fathom so much information.

          For example, when it comes to time, we are only able to comprehend very short lengths of time, perhaps a few centuries, if that. When we try to comprehend millions or billions of years, the mind simply doesn't have the capacity to do so.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Are you speaking for all minds? All minds are individual.

            1. profile image59
              (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Absolutely. Try yourself to sit down and attempt to fathom the concept of millions or billions of years. It simply can't be done. It's very difficult to even comprehend a thousand years.

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                It can't be done because you can't do it? Maybe you can't do it because you think you can't do it before you tried it. My point is, how can you say the mind is limited when it has no map to define it's limits? To have absolute belief that the mind has limits would limit the mind.

                1. wyanjen profile image87
                  wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the worst kind of prophecy.

                2. profile image59
                  (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Gentlemen, without sounding patronizing, I would be happy to explain this to you all, however it isn't a claim I made, it is a claim made by Dawkins and you are free to watch the video in which he explains this phenomenon.

                  Fast forward to about the 33 minute mark here:

                  http://atheistmovies.blogspot.com/2009/ … aking.html

          2. wyanjen profile image87
            wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            And yet we do comprehend it and understand it.
            If what you say is true, we would have no concept that anything existed before Jesus. We would think that fossils are rocks with funny shapes. We would think the weird stuff we see through a telescope is a bunch of funny looking lights and round things.
            My mind has the capacity. As do most minds.

    3. profile image59
      (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. profile image59
        (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this
  38. ComputerGuy profile image59
    ComputerGuyposted 7 years ago

    Faith is simply a choice to believe.  If your wife tells you they love you, you believe them in good faith.  They could be lying, or telling the truth.

    It is your faith that will direct you through life.  Choose what you believe well and you will prosper.

  39. prettydarkhorse profile image64
    prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago

    marine, there is limit to human intelligence, memories capacity etc,

    intelligence is acquired throughh experiences, and socialization, remember when you are born, tabula rasa, blank,,,,but becuase of you capacity for intelligence (because of heredity and experience, you have the capacity to learn and store ideas and process them,

    Intelligence is also limited up to the time that there are new discoveries, after a generation, when there are more discoveries, you can add it up to your knowledge..

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I disagree. It's only limited if you believe it's limited. If our minds were regulated to only known information, we would never try anything new without faith in that theory. If we believed we were limited, why would we always attempt to push and change the limits through science? If scientist believed they were limited, they would be content with what they already knew.

    2. wyanjen profile image87
      wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      But if there was a limit to intelligence, there would be no more new discoveries.
      smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes! Thats what I was trying to get at in my previous comment.

        1. wyanjen profile image87
          wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          That's what the god gap is.
          Until the next discovery explains the latest mystery, god gets the credit.
          If you put together a jigsaw puzzle and you are missing three pieces, do you say the empty holes are where god lives? Or do you simply say, I don't know what those pieces are supposed to be?

      2. prettydarkhorse profile image64
        prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I believe that in a certain time, in this particular time, there is limit to your intelligence,

        1. wyanjen profile image87
          wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I think maybe you mean there is a limit to facts that I could learn.

          There is no limit to my intelligence, I learn new things every day.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Hey Jen,

            I don't mean to disappoint- the mind's capacity is limited to the knowledge it can hold, but you as a person are not limited in the area of understanding(wisdom).

            The brain is and can, only fill to a point. Once it reaches that point, it(you) will make a conscious effort to discard older more useless knowledge, which no longer is needed and is transplanted with the new knowledge.

            Your individual intelligence is also limited, simply because it's measured by man. How ever, it is also, so some can make other people feel inferior to others, who appear smarter than most. This word in and of itself creates separation and helps only those who know how to absorb knowledge better than others, and allow them to subvert or usurp power of control over those who are not as smart. To understand, look at how is in control?

            As for the topic at hand- What is wrong with believing something with faith?

            Faith is unquestionable belief. This means, you have absolutely NO doubt about the belief you have faith in. This can only be obtained, as long as you have 100% faith in that belief.

            However, how you form that belief, to get that faith, MUST BE done through factual truths about life. And, religion offers up no facts, just the hope of wisdom, at the expense of an illusion.

            1. wyanjen profile image87
              wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Hi Ray, happy turkey. smile

              If you make a claim that the mind's capacity is limited, you'll need to define the limit. What is the point a person reaches when they then have to decide what to forget, in order to learn more?

              I'll play along with that though. If the concept is that old data is erased to make room for new data, that doesn't constitute a limit. Data is still being added. And the old data is backed up before it is erased. Silly analogy, but I mean to say that people write books to hold knowledge. If I forget older knowledge, I can go back and read it again.

              1. Cagsil profile image60
                Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Happy Thanksgiving to you too Jen.

                Well, let me see if I can explain this a little more clearly. Once your mind reaches maximum capacity, you add new knowledge, but discard old knowledge no longer necessary- this is recycling and not expanding. It isn't backed up anywhere, unless you store it somewhere physcially. An example: a harddrive of a computer has a maximum capacity and when you fill it up, you take off irrelevant less meaningful things, so you can put newer stuff on it.

                Hope that helped.

                1. wyanjen profile image87
                  wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm not buying the maximum capacity concept.

                  I won't argue that an individual person may have a limit of understanding, just as an individual person may not run as fast as another.

                  Not trying to be a PITA about it, but if you are arguing that a person's brain has a Max Fill point, I'll need to see how that is defined and confirmed.

                  If you can't prove the concept with factual data, you are making an assumption that it is true.
                  Thus, you are "taking it on faith." smile

                  1. marinealways24 profile image60
                    marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I like it! I agree.

  40. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    Mark, first, great posting.
    In answer to your question: there is nothing 'wrong' with believing by faith alone, however, it really makes no sense to.

    Humans cannot live by just breathing or drinking water or sunbathing. We need air, food, water, sleep, etc.
    So it is the collective of things that we need to live.

    This is faith.
    From the textual perspective, if actually read correctly, faith is the "stuff of things hoped for" AND the "proof of things unseen".

    Where the failure comes in is in the teaching.

    give you an example: Say I am a farmer. I got this nice piece of land, right? That land is soil, made up of powdered leaves, grasses, roots, rocks, air, water and other elements.
    I have this need or hope of a field full of flowers.
    so, I can see or imagine/visualize that field full, yes?

    This is the stuff of my field, my character, personality, words, thoughts and actions. My perspective, opinion, vision.

    That's part one of faith.

    In following my heart, my vision, etc, I plant a bunch of wild flower flower seeds, sunflower seeds, you name it.
    I plant them in the soil in that stuff.
    From this point on for three weeks, I can't see anything happening, but below the surface, in that stuff, my seeds are germinating, growing. I can't see it nor do I really understand what is going on. All I can do is hope those seeds spout into flowers.

    That's part two of faith.

    The last part is the proof, evidence, of what I planted.
    Those flower stems pop up out of the ground as proof that I planted them seeds and the stuff did what it did. My proof is the harvest of flowers I now have -a field full of them plus more seeds to plant if I need to.

    That is part three of faith.

    So, long story short of it, faith is not just believing.
    It is a collection of stuff, seed and harvesting.
    Just like us. We are the stuff of the universe -energy, thoughts, motion- and the proof of the seed of the universe.

    smile

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think first finding the right field to plant in would require logic not getting over excited from the first nice field you see without analyzing it.

      I think the faith would come after you logically picked the right field that gave you the most faith of having a successful harvest.

      Then I think the logical outcome would be the results of the field based on the logic and faith you put into it.


      Both logic and faith are blind without each other.

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Absolutely!
        Faith isn't some mystic hum or mantra.
        It is a collection of logic, reason, thought, energy, etc etc.

        And rightly so, planting in the right field is extremely vital.
        Try planting corn in a rice paddy, ain't gonna grow. wink

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      My pleasure - but you contradict yourself in your opening and it appears that there is something wrong with believing by faith alone. i.e. it makes no sense to. Which is presumably why so many who do believe in faith alone attempt to justify their belief in some other way.


      So your definition of faith includes inventing non existent proof to justify the faith in the unseen thing?

      i.e. using semantics to justify your blind faith.

      But what if the soil was not receptive or the flowers you grew were only visible to you?

      I think we might need to reach an agreed upon definition of the term "proof," because it appears your use of the word is a tad different to the actual meaning. wink

      But - I get your drift. There is more than one type of faith and you are - as seems every one is - attempting to say that there is only one kind of faith.

      Faith that god exists is different to faith that my car brakes will work (brakes do fail) or the hope that I will not get eaten by a shark if I go diving (and people do get eaten).

      But - I agree with you. It makes no sense to believe in god by faith alone - which is why so many invent other reasons to justify their blind faith in some way.

      Which is where the fights start.

      Every time some one justifies their belief in god by attempting to argue that they made a rational decision based on evidence and proof - they are telling me I made an irrational decision and I am too stupid to understand what "proof" or "evidence" means. wink

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Generally speaking -without stepping on toes- the issue of human need to justify their respective 'faith' stems from how people perceive it and what they are taught. Faith is a collective of things. It includes perspective, vision, image, imagination, opinion and most definitely the corresponding action of those beliefs, images, ideas, thoughts, words, opinions, etc etc.

        Having it -we all do. Applying it - that's the issue.

        Exactly like the brakes thing or diving.
        You don't know the car brakes work or if there are sharks. Only way to find out is jump in the water, drive the car.
        Oddly, most believe just by jumping in they have 'acted' on their faith. Not so. In order to have those brakes operate, you have to have a car, the key, turn it, start the engine, press the gas, allow acceleration THEN press the brake petal and hope they work.

        And agreed, why believe in the Creator just to believe? Seems silly and pointless. Strangely, if you believe such things, He thinks it is silly too. So faith is the same, why have faith if no one plans on doing anything with it.

        Imagine all the farmers on earth 'just believing' things would grow in their field, there tractor breaks would work, that god exists, that cat spells dog. Would make for a very boring documentary.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          But all you are doing is attempting to justify your blind faith by using semantic arguments which do not apply.

          Most people have a reason for believing. This is not the same as evidence, proof or rationality.

          And I see you couldn't resist telling me what god thinks. wink

          1. profile image0
            thetruthhurts2009posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            All YOU are doing is attempting to justify your blind faith by using WEAK arguments which do not apply.
            Show me the proof evol mark wink

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Dear oh dear oh dear.

              I realize it must bother you that I am attempting a reasonable conversation, but please do not keep on following me around and doing this.

              It is unpleasant, disrespectful - both to me and the person I am conversing with, and merely gives me one more reason to despise your religion. wink

              Thank you.

              1. profile image0
                thetruthhurts2009posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                lol Nothing I do can make you do anything. You suffer from ABG(anything but God) syndrome and it's pretty far along. I don't anyone can bring you back to reality. As I recall you follow Christians and mock them constantly. I'm sure they find it unpleasant, disrespectful too, Does it stop you? Don't play "hurt victim" now. Whatever happened to do unto others? Whenever you're ready to learn about evolution, send evolution guy he seems more open-minded. Thank you wink

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  So - You are not prepared to honor my genuine request to allow me the courtesy of having a conversation without interruption?

                  I base my decisions on a wide variety of criteria - one of which is the behavior and demeanor of those who claim to be christian. wink

                  You are an excellent argument against believing. Thank you. But - please do not keep on interrupting.

                  Thank you.

                  1. profile image0
                    thetruthhurts2009posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    You first! lol

  41. cbfglass profile image57
    cbfglassposted 7 years ago

    Original Testament



    Recovery of ones inner will
    often times lost at the start
    evolves into life’s quest
    which for some seems hard.
    Corralled by Sheppard’s praising
    their obedient blind flocks
    lead many on wayward path
    away from my heavenly stars.
    Rotate away from the norm
    begin ones self journey home
    trust your guide with heart
    in the mirrors of his eyes
    you will discover yourself
    silhouette but ready to start.

    COPYWRITE CALVIN BRUCE FUSSELL

  42. profile image0
    lyricsingrayposted 7 years ago

    Believe away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  43. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    Mark, I am a scientist and philosopher.
    I think the best way I can explain the evidence/proof is the same.
    Subatomic particles exist. Up until recently humans didn't know it, but they believed those particles existed. Thus they searched and found them. Same with knowledge. I am a huge knowledge seeker. The proof of my knowledge is my ability to explain things to others and myself based on what I know. Faith is the same thing. It is the whole package. The proofs, like mathematical equations.

    x + y = 3.
    the proof is 3, so what are x & y. They are the stuff that makes up 3. But they are all part of the equation. And rightly so, they all work together.

    Also being  mountain climber ( i have a water phobia ), i know that i have to test my ropes and hooks before i climb, else i am dead. Each step up the face is an action of my knowledge that these ropes will hold me. If they don't, am in for one hell of fall. So the only rational explanation is to test my ropes, check the mountain for flaws and find out the outcome by climbing.
    I cannot justify the climb or the apex unless all the elements of climbing come together and i actually climb the rock.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What does this have to do with having faith that there is a god?

      Because you seem to be saying "just because we have not seen Him, does not mean He does not exist."

      Which is a pretty weak argument.

  44. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    it's more than that.
    we have seen 'Him'. Not in the mystical form people perceive or the colorful illustrations. The existence or proof of a Creator is found in the human being.
    An example is imagination.
    We can imagine anything we want.
    Even if no one else can see it -and in fact they cannot. So the individual idea exists even though no one else knows it. I can be here but dreaming of Cabo. I can see the water, feel the sun warm my skin, taste the air without ever being there physically.
    Does Cabo exist, sure. How do I know, because I saw it, felt it even before I was actually there.

    and since the universe is not a respecter of persons, each one of us has the exact same ability, to imagine, to create using that image and enjoy that proof either the thought itself or actually getting on a plane and going there.

    The human mind and imagination prove that principle.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      As I said - I think we need an agree upon definition of the word "proof," because you - as do most people who believe in a Creator and know what He thinks are using it in a different way to me.

      "I think, therefore there is a God."

      wink

    2. fatfist profile image77
      fatfistposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      (The existence or proof of a Creator is found in the human being. )

      That's funny, cause I've been told: "look at the trees! That is the proof of a creator!"

      Seems like everyone has their own "metaphoric" proofs that warm up the heart quite nicely. But when the smoke show clears, there really is no proof left in the pudding.

      And what is this "creator" everybody keeps yapping about? Is it somebody who creates "something out of nothing", or is it "somebody who assembles something from matter"? I've seen creators assemble houses, cars, skyscrapers, etc. and I'm not particularly impressed by them, nor am I inclined to worship them.

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        1st, there is no such thing as 'nothing' in the universe.
        2nd, the idea of 'matter' is mute, as a avid student of nano-physics and a scientist, matter has been disputed because everything is so 'uber micro & macro' that sub-categorizing any form of energy -known or unknown- has no relevant necessity.

        As for the Creator, I'll leave that to your own argument, since it is irrelevant to argue over such. As for worship -from your statement about 'who is the creator' it seem your contradict your own logic even making mention of the word worship, since it points directly to a sovereign entity.

        1. Bovine Currency profile image61
          Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Too tired to laugh but funny, a little.  Kind of getting boring how people just lie without any effort to hide the fact

        2. fatfist profile image77
          fatfistposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, by using church logic your argument makes sense:
          P1. There is no such thing as nothing.
          P2. There is no such thing as matter, as it has been disputed.
          Conclusion: There is no nothing AND there is nothing

          Only via church logic can a contradiction of the form: P and not-P at the same time, be viewed as reality.

          The funny thing is that I agree with you. Church logic makes everything possible.
          I'll use your argument to attempt to withdraw funds that I don't have in my bank account. Is it ok if I give you as an authoritative reference to my bank manager if they give me a hard time?

  45. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    agreed.

    i think believers should really re-examine their faith concepts and really get into the meat of it, start doing it instead of coughing up bits and pieces.
    as i explained to one preacher, just because they can quote a book, doesn't mean they know the author. what's more, is just because someone believes, doesn't make it so. my last statement to him before i walked out of the building was simply this: the author of life didn't go around quoting himself all day long. He taught by his words and corresponding action to his words, which is in fact faith. that is when my quest -for lack of a better word- began.
    and who knows where the journey will lead, but what an amazing journey it is so far.

  46. pylos26 profile image75
    pylos26posted 7 years ago

    Mark knowles wrote "What is wrong with believing something by Faith?"

    Nothing...but it may be improper to try and incorporate one's personal opinion of faith into another reluctant individual.

    Sorry Mark...Just an opinion with no faith attached.

  47. Chris Kwapich profile image61
    Chris Kwapichposted 7 years ago

    The only issue I have with people taking beliefs on faith is when that belief turns into fact. Many frame their religious views in their head and then will not alter it all. We all have things we take on faith. Putting trust in others is, in itself, a form of faith.
    I Think for anyone to progress intelluctually, or even emotionally, they must always be willing to accept the fact that they might be wrong- especially when it comes to things that lack imperical evidence. If something should come along to contradict beliefs one has come to solidify themselves as fact, such new evidence has been either suppressed or completely ignored. This type of ignorance is what fueled the Dark Ages. This is why, in the USA at least, there has been such an embarassing resistance toward evolution. This is even in spite of support in favor of evolution by religious leaders such as popes.
    I do have my beliefs. But they do evolve, albeit sometimes begrudgingly, if I am shown to be wrong. Many people who have their faith turned fact, have not only a hollow ground, but can only support their view with ignorance or dishonest tactics.

  48. ragnaworks profile image59
    ragnaworksposted 7 years ago

    There is nothing wrong with believing something by faith alone. Everyone has the right to their own belief or opinion. I think we can all agree on that.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I suspect you did not bother reading the answers then.

      No one here is prepared to admit to believing something by faith alone.

      Which suggest that there is something wrong with it.

      They all have "proof" and "evidence" that god exists and do not believe by faith. They have used "logic" and "reasonable deduction" to come to this "logical conclusion."

      Therefore they do not have faith, because that "makes no sense." wink

      Do you believe something by faith alone?

      1. ragnaworks profile image59
        ragnaworksposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I have read all the answers. I was just answering your original question. No I don't believe something by faith alone. I was just stating there was nothing wrong with doing so. People have the right to decide for themselves what is the truth. I think it really only becomes an issue when people insist on pushing their beliefs or opinions on each other, and have a lack of respect for other people's beliefs/opinions.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          So - you do not believe something by faith alone, but you think there is nothing wrong with doing so.

          Do you believe in a god?

          1. ragnaworks profile image59
            ragnaworksposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No I do not. I am open to the possibility of the existence of a higher power(s), just as I am open to the possibility that no such thing exists. I do not know either way, nor do I claim to.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Good for you. Most sensible. I prefer to make an absolute statement in the negative to provoke a reaction from all those absolute positives who then claim that this is not possible. wink

              So - why do you think all these people who do believe in a god have been trying to convince others that they do not believe by faith?

              1. ragnaworks profile image59
                ragnaworksposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Not all religious people do that. Granted, there are a good number who do, but not all. But for the ones that do, I would say that their faith alone is not enough for them. They require something else to justify their beliefs to themselves and others.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I am sure there are - but there is not one person on this thread who claims to believe by faith alone. God found their car keys or returned their son from Iraq alive or some other such proof was forthcoming. big_smile

                  1. h.a.borcich profile image59
                    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                      Hi,

                      I am curious, why would you think it is so bad if I as a believer think God helped me in some way? I would be inclined to believe that you see "evidence" in your day to day life to justify (even if only to yourself) what you believe.
                      Please remember I am not challenging what you have faith in or not in, but just why you think "evidence" is not ok for faith.
                      Thanks, Holly

                  2. ragnaworks profile image59
                    ragnaworksposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    There are two kinds of proof. There is the kind that is relevant on a broad level, and the kind that is only relevant on a personal level. You can't expect to prove anything on a broad level based on personal experiences alone. If I see someone levitate off the ground all by themselves, hardly anyone is going to believe it without any kind of factual evidence. I may know for myself that it happened, but I can't seriously expect anyone else to believe it.

  49. Presigo profile image54
    Presigoposted 7 years ago

    Mark, I agree with the point you are making. Many Christians feel the need to }prove{ God or "disprove" aethiesm. We know Him by faith. There is no gifr or lkife in rationalizing Him into existence. We are in grace because we have a chance to love Him now, one day this time of grace will be gone and we will all know Him then

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well - I do not agree with the in grace thing, but - what I am trying to get at is the basis of the animosity between the two groups - believers and non believers.

      And I think this need to "prove" god exists when this is impossible - is one of the root causes.

      1. profile image0
        B52 Bomberposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Neither side can prove otherwise.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          But one side is making a positive claim. wink

          1. profile image0
            B52 Bomberposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Sir, do you not make a positive claim that he does not exist?Do you not state that as absolute?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              So -= are you not making the claim?

              Because if you are not - I will not say nay.

              1. profile image0
                B52 Bomberposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry, stepped away.I believe there is a God,Can not prove it,so that`s just my personal opinion.You do not believe he exists,can`t prove it.So that`s just your personal opinion. I am new and wish no dis-respect. Maybe you have provided evidence God does not exist and I am not aware. Would love to see if you have.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  LOL

                  But you appear to be giving equal weight to the two statements.

                  LOL

                  You define it - I will disprove it. wink

                  1. profile image0
                    B52 Bomberposted 7 years ago in reply to this
      2. Presigo profile image54
        Presigoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Having to prove the existence of God has not saved anyone. Its not just some believers feeling they have to prove, it is many aethiests demanding the proof

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Rubbish.

          It is many atheists saying "your god does not exist." wink

  50. fatfist profile image77
    fatfistposted 7 years ago

    When somebody asserts the positive claim that something exists, the burden of proof is on the initial claimant.

    If there is no proof presented, then anybody can RESPOND to that claim by calling it bunk. But the response is not a "claim" - it is a response!

    If you claim something exists by "your" faith alone and not by truth, then anybody requesting proof from you is just being silly.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Precisely. This is what I am getting at. You tell me you believe by faith alone - I have no problem. You start telling me you have proof and evidence - we are going to argue.

 
working