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Stating the Outlandish for Attention

  1. Bibowen profile image90
    Bibowenposted 6 years ago

    Christians, look at the recent threads....

    Christians are
    1. terrorists.
    2. advocating genocide in Uganda.
    3. committing child abuse by teaching their children the Bible.

    Do believers propagate these threads by arguing with these people that are so starved for attention that they'll say anything to get it? Your comments...

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That is a fact. It is abuse to force a child to believe in something. It's called indoctrination. There is no law against such abuse, but most likely we will see such a law in the future as this abuse comes to light.

      1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not a Christian (at least I suspect many believers on this site would disqualify me), but this is not a fact. Abuse is a word that must not be diluted. Child abuse is a horrendous phenomenon, and its horror must not be sullied by introducing ideas like this.

        Everyone ever born has been indoctrinated into a cultural system. Atheism could be construed as abusive by this logic; it isn't. I concede teaching children about hell is not cool, in my book, but I suspect the parents who use the idea of hell to scare the sh*t out of their kids would be abusive no matter what beliefs they held.

        Just my view point

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It isnt't sullied in the least and is appropriate for what children have to bear being indoctrinated into their parents religion. Perhaps, you're confusing indoctrination with teaching.

          1. 0
            sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I say as soon as a child is born we take them to a liberal education center so they can be raised like good liberals. Really, what the hell is wrong with you!?

            1. Colebabie profile image60
              Colebabieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              If by "liberal education center" you mean public school... then that's where I went, and I turned out ok!

              1. 0
                sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                My sarcastic remark referred to a situation where the state takes kids from their parents to ensure they're not taught bible lessons. The parents would be removed from they're lives so the abusive parents couldn't program their children.

                1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                  AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, this is the issue isn't it. Ironically, it was a healthy dose of left-wing, Marxist philosophy at university that woke me up to this: Marxists don't like liberals either, because to them, they are *within* the system, playing by its rules, part of the state -- to a Marxist, it is the state that is the problem.

                  So I got a good dose of analysis of the state as oppressive, intrusive, invasive, dominating and indoctrinating. Ironically, it works well for the Right too; just, instead of the "state", you can use the word the "government" -- the complaint is the same.

                  I don't mean by Marxist philosophers Soviets though, or Maoists, because, perversely, they are our prime example of the state intervening in everyone's lives -- look at what they did in Cambodia; took away ALL of the children so they wouldn't be contaminated with "bourgeois" ideals by their parents. (A bit like what the Canadian government/state did to the natives up here)

                  1. 0
                    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    The fact we have to have these conversations is so sad.sad

                  2. alexandriaruthk profile image51
                    alexandriaruthkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    but Marxism is just an ideal situation right, when you apply it in reality it will crumble, but the idea of communism is good, equality, the first thing is, are we really equal?

                2. Colebabie profile image60
                  Colebabieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  When I read your response and the quotes above there was no mention of that. I am in no way in favor of children being taken away from their parents. But I am also not in favor of parents only accepting their children when they have the same beliefs as them. In my family my sister and I are agnostic and my brother atheist. My parents are proud and support all three of us.

                  1. 0
                    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    The fact that q was calling it abuse to teach your children the bible and should come with legal penalties, you missed that?

          2. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
            AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well, we are dealing in generalizations. I already conceded that there may be cases where this was the case (using hell to be abusive), but I suspect the parents have to be mean-spirited to use it that way. I knew tons of kids from evangelical homes growing up, and they were *definitely* *not* abused! The idea is ludicrous in their cases.

            As for me, I was brought up in a secular home, but I still got indoctrinated into all sorts of things I wish I hadn't been. I'd be surprised if there are many who escape this fate

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Not at all, the indoctrination can take place in what appears to be the happiest of homes, although the happiness is most likely blissful ignorance. Violence is NOT a factor of indoctrination.



              What you are admitting to is the fact that you accepted without question those things you refer. Anyone who uses critical thinking skills easily escapes that fate.

              1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Well, at this point I would normally say something abusive, and then laugh, because the idea that a seven year-old has much in the way of critical faculties is just dumb. The forebrain doesn't stop growing till 25 for a start

                1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                  AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  But it is a factor in abuse.

                  1. 61
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Not neccessarily. In fact, looking quickly at the definition, I was no mention of violence.

        2. Bovine Currency profile image61
          Bovine Currencyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          "Everyone ever born has been indoctrinated into a cultural system," is the same as saying we are all born.  Ok, we are all involved in a cultural system but to what extent we are forced/encouraged to believe a particular life view is obviously very different for each of us.

          Me, I was never brought up with religion nor atheism.  There was a bible in the house and I read a little and asked my dad about the bible.  He didn't want to talk about it and suggested if I wanted to know about the bible I could make up my own mind.  He didn't want to talk about god.  Same goes for my mother, more or less.

          I know many people who are not indoctrinated.  We are born and we exist in culture.  We all exist in systems, that's life.  Indoctrination is a word that can be equally abused.  To suggest we are all indoctrinated as an opppostion to the suggestion that some children are victim to forced religious affiliation, you commit the same dillution you charge.

          I have more than a few friends that were brought up Catholic and admit to the facts of indoctrination and the inability to shake the consequences.  I have seen the same in children and teens and adults brought up in the pentacostal faith.  Child abuse via religion is a real thing.

      2. h.a.borcich profile image61
        h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Are you advocating a select group dictate what children are taught by their parents in their own homes?
          "They" already decide plenty for parents.
          Parenting is sharing more than the nesessities. It is the passing on of values from generation to generation. Why would you feel anyone has the right to reduce parenting to glorified babysitters?
          I think trying to control what values I teach in my home is an outlandish statement for attention. Holly

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          What do you think about those that raise their children from birth to hate and kill people of a different race, should they be allowed to breed their children to be racist killers?

          1. h.a.borcich profile image61
            h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I assure you that didn't happen in my home, and my home and my rights to parent is what I addressed. Holly

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Does that mean you can't state an opinion on other homes? If you are silent, does that mean you approve of people raising their kids to be racist killers?

              1. h.a.borcich profile image61
                h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Marine,
                  You are free to state your opinion any blooming time you want to, but what do you want from me? When you ask "does that mean?" it usually is the beginning of :
                  If I stand my home is my right - you flip out.
                  If I say nothing - you flip out.
                  If I say I raised a good son- you condemn that I taught him the Bible.
                  If I say we need to help those who do hurt their kids - you say I have no right to judge and you flip out.

                  I think you will now start throwing something out there with "logic, individual belief, etc" just to flip out some more. It is up to you. Holly
                Just stating what I see and think.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol, I'm just asking for your opinion. Why are you getting angry? Do you think it's alright for people to raise their kids racist killers or do you think someone should step in?

        2. Stimp profile image79
          Stimpposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You go, Girl.  Whoot!  Whoot!

      3. Jeffrey Neal profile image87
        Jeffrey Nealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are saying teaching your children about your morals and values is abuse?  Yes, what we need is a law...

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, again the confusion between indoctrination and teaching. We can teach children about religion or we can indoctrinate them into our religions. See now?

          1. Jeffrey Neal profile image87
            Jeffrey Nealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I see a lot of people think there should be a law for everything, and if you've seen real child abuse you wouldn't be calling so-called "indoctrination" by the same name.

            That is all I care to say about it, though, so everyone carry on with the hate. neutral

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Irrelevant. Whether I've seen "real" child abuse or not does not preclude that fact that indoctrinating children into their parents religion is abuse. This is "real" child abuse.

              1. 0
                sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I sure hope you're not breeding!

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  More trolling, I suppose you'll never learn. Your outbursts are a direct indication of your lack of sincerity, credibility and intelligence.

                  You, my short-peckered friend, appear to be a perfect example of said indoctrination. You lack any form of critical thinking skills and integrity in your so-called thinking process.

                  1. 0
                    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Does this mean we're not friends? I have cookies?

              2. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Can you not concede though that lumping this issue in with physical and sexual abuse, and psychological intimidation using belittling and threats over time does muddy the waters.

                It reminds me of occasions I've heard Jewish North Americans born in the 1970s or later using the Holocaust to justify some position or other -- it disgusts exactly *because* the Holocaust was such a gigantic crime and should not be mixed up with, let us say, the albeit precarious position/plight of a strong, democratic, prosperous, confident modern Jewish state.

                Lines have to be drawn in the language we use -- things have to be labelled correctly, or we can not navigate the world properly.

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Then, let's have a good look at your response. You have offered up at least three categories of abuse; physical, sexual and psychological intimidation. While it could be argued that religious indoctrination is a form of psychological intimidation, it need not be as intimidation may or may not be part of the equation. But, the fact that you produced several examples does not preclude that childhood religious indoctrination cannot be included as another category.

                  And, if you want to take that one step further, how do you think most Christian parents will react if their children stepped forward and stated they no longer believe in the parents god? Do you think we would see some psychological intimidation and physical abuse? Could be.

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I was offering a *definition* of child abuse, not a set of examples. I'm sorry, but I simply have too much experience around fundamentalist Christian families, i.e., empirical date based on a pretty big data set, and they are not the way you describe.

                    And for the record, most of their kids *did* "fall away" and *none* of them were disowned.

                2. 0
                  Leta Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I concede, Adsense.  God.  Your posts are honest and you are using language honestly.

                  Yes, what you are talking about is RAMPANT over Hubpage forums.  There isn't a very serious discussion of most matters, just a lot of posturing and 1/2 baked assumptions/truths.

                  One wonders how some can talk of abuse and indoctrination here and not realize how they themselves appear.  In my humble opinion, you are using somewhat advanced critical thinking skills...and to boot, humane language.  Others are not.  You have a new fan. smile

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Hahaaa, my plan is working wink

              3. h.a.borcich profile image61
                h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                   Irrelevant?
                   Would you advocate what I consider relevant to be the law as to what you can teach your children? There are some places where peaceful peoples are allowed to pass on their values to their children. You pass on what you feel you must, and I will do the same. Holly

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Passing on values and indoctrinating into a religion are two different things. One of them is devoid of values.

              4. Valerie F profile image60
                Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You think there is a difference between indoctrination and teaching, without failing to see that there is a difference between indoctrination and brainwashing. (Besides, if you break down the word "indoctrination" etymologically, it clearly refers to the act of teaching.) Brainwashing is abuse. Indoctrination/teaching is not.

                And to forbid parents from instructing their children and raising them according to their religious traditions is a form of cultural genocide.

                1. 69
                  logic,commonsenseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Teaching your children to think for themselves is the most valuable form of cultural progress.

                2. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, it is, and I beleive that's already been covered.



                  Now you're being silly in the extreme.

                  1. Valerie F profile image60
                    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh, really? There was a time when Native American parents were discouraged from raising their children according to their traditions, to the point that children were taken from their parents and educated in boarding schools, and it was all part of an attempt at cultural genocide.

          2. Quilligrapher profile image90
            Quilligrapherposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            @(Q)
            Hi (Q)  From one Q to another, I don’t see your point.  The words teach and indoctrinate have the same basic meaning except that the latter adds a negative connotation.  Perhaps you can elaborate.

            According the Webster’s  Dictionary:
            Main Entry: in·doc·tri·nate
            1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach

            However, I think as a parent, it is my obligation to teach my children, to the best of my ability, how to live and survive on their own.  To accomplish this, I must instill in them as much of what I have learned from all of my own life experiences.  Therefore, I could not allow them to wait until they understood tooth decay before starting them on a ritual of good dental hygiene.  I consider it my duty to mold their character and their ethics in preparation for adulthood.  This would include instructing my children about what I believe to be right and wrong even before they are able to understand why they are so. And, I do this knowing that, in time, it will become their obligation as adults to adjust what they have been taught according to their own conscience, and life experience, so they can teach and train their children for what may indeed be a different world then mine.
            Q.
            (as in Quilligrapher)

            1. h.a.borcich profile image61
              h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              smile

            2. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The latter is negative for the fact that indoctrination is the acceptance of ideas, "uncritically" which is the key word in the above definition.

              For example, you are raised and taught a god exists and you accept it without question. Critical thinking would put into question the existence of the god especially when there isn't a shred of evidence to support the concept. But since you accept it "uncritically" you've not only lost the opportunity to learn critical thinking skills, you begin to accept a great number of concepts without question and your entire thinking process consists of little more than beliefs in this and that, no thinking required.



              I applaud you for doing so, sir. And, I also thank you for not using scriptures as your guide, but instead your own lifes experiences. Kudos!



              Q as in Q

              1. Quilligrapher profile image90
                Quilligrapherposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks for your comment, (Q).  The words “teach” and “indoctrinate” have the same basic meaning and I believe that you agreed to that by not stating otherwise. The distinction you make is that “indoctrination is the acceptance of ideas, "uncritically".”  But neither teaching nor indoctrinating involves any kind of acceptance and “acceptance” has nothing to do with either definition.  I will address my children's ability to accept my teaching “critically” later. So I am left with my original statement: “I don't see your point.  The words teach and indoctrinate have the same basic meaning except that the latter adds a negative connotation.  Perhaps you can elaborate.”

                In this statement you begin with a hypothetical premise,  “you are raised and taught a god exists and you accept it without question.”  I accept your premise and confirm that the “you” in the premise is actually Quilligrapher.  Therefore your starting premise is not only a true statement, but also one that I have the life experiences and valid qualifications to respond to.  You then go on until you arrive at this conclusion:” you've not only lost the opportunity to learn critical thinking skills, you begin to accept a great number of concepts without question and your entire thinking process consists of little more than beliefs in this and that, no thinking required.” 

                There is absolutely no supporting evidence between your starting premise and your conclusion at the end.  You offer no evidence. I see no facts. 

                Again, I was indeed raised and taught a God exists and I accepted those teachings without question when I was being taught.  However, without ever having met me, a misguided mindset has you believing that I “lost the opportunity to learn critical thinking skills.”  You really think that I “accept a great number of concepts without question”, and finally, you are convinced that my “entire thinking process consists of little more than beliefs in this and that, no thinking required.”  Can you explain to me how you come to know this about me without ever having met me?



                Thank you, (Q) for that kind round of applause.  With your permission, may I once again point out how a mindset can often lead to erroneous conclusions.  I said that I felt it was “my obligation to teach my children...from all of my own life experiences.”  However, I did not indicate if all, how many, or if none of those life experiences may have used scripture as a guide.  Maybe I did use scriptures as a guide, maybe I did not.  Which one is true is irrelevant!

                One final point, if I may.  We are talking about children here.  I, for one, would never accept any argument that supports ALL teaching must be delayed until the child has reached an age when they can critically accept what is being taught.  You would have to justify to me delaying my children's education until they are old enough to understand why they need to start school as soon as they are able.  Or, should I not indoctrinate my children to brush their teeth unless they are old enough to understand tooth decay?  Or should I not teach my children what I found to be valuable about spirituality and ethics just because I learn some of those concepts from their grandparents?

                Q.
                (as in Quilligrapher)

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  If you did use scripture as a guide, did you cherry pick what you wanted them to believe or did you teach them everything? If you did cherry pick the bible, do you consider that ethical?



                  Who said anything about 'delaying' teaching? Children can be taught to think at an early age, as long as their not being indoctrinated into a religion as this will destroy their ability to think.   



                  You could teach your children instead. Have you tried that?



                  Do you teach your children that "spirituality" exists or do you teach them that it hasn't been demonstrated to exist? Big difference.




                  Q as in Q

                  1. Quilligrapher profile image90
                    Quilligrapherposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Hi again (Q).  So far, your responses continue to advocate your opinions yet you refuse to offer any supportable explanations as to why or how you reached your conclusions. Therefore, you are asking me to believe that your way of thinking is superior is mine solely because you believe this to be true.  I see no supporting evidence and you offer no facts that remotely support your conclusions.  You are, in effect, saying that you have neither.


                    You continue is insist that “teach” and “indoctrinate” have two totally different meanings AFTER reading a verifiable authority that says that the basic definitions of both words are essentially the same.  This suggests that your mindset is so rigid that it resists change even in the face of hard evidence.


                    I notice that you did not respond to what I said at all.  Instead, you introduce another hypothetical followed by two questions.  You also ignored my statement that the use of scripture as a guide is irrelevant within the context of my post. Once again, your response fails to offer any explanations as to why or how you reached your conclusions.
                    ”Who said anything about ‘delaying' teaching?”, you ask.  I did!  I did so to demonstrate that parents often need to expose their children to things before they are old enough to accept the concept “critically.”  You even suggest that teaching religion “will destroy their ability to think” and you do so AFTER I proved to you by my own example that this conclusion is absolutely illogical and utterly false. This suggests that your mindset is so rigid that it resists change even in the face of hard evidence. Here, once again, you choose not to respond to my question but, rather, attempt to deflect my point by asking another two part question.  To answer a question with another question is to admit you have no answer that you can defend.  Do you have any concrete reasons for your beliefs?  Such unsupported conclusions are nothing more than your own individual opinions that you accept as facts within your perception of reality.  Which is okay with me.  Think whatever you want. But, why try to convince others to think this way if you can’t explain why and how you arrived at these conclusions?

                    I teach my children things that I found to be valuable about spirituality and ethics because I have learned from my own life experiences that these concepts were beneficial to me and, in my parental opinion, will benefit them as well.  For example, I think they will have a better life if they believe, as I do, that they should not steal.  I would even punish them for stealing in order to reinforce that their life will be better if they think this way too.  When they grow up they will be free to become bank robbers or cheats if they so choose.  But, I will know that I fulfilled my obligation by teaching them that I thought such actions would reduce the quality of their lives.  I can believe that it is wrong to steal without having to believe that Moses spoke to God. There is much to be learned about living from the Koran, and the Bible, and a Good Housekeeping magazine.  When I find it, I use it.

                    I am really interested in learning about what you think, (Q), and even more interested in learning why you think this way.   Please don’t respond with just more of what you think if you have nothing to offer about why.

                    Q. (as in Quilligrapher)

      4. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        My interest on this thread is discussing whether or not Christians should give attention to this nonsense.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Of course they should. Why don't Christians teach their children about religion and not just force them to believe in Christianity? In fact, I've seen so many Christians who know very little about their own religion, yet believe in it without question. Have they been taught?

          Indoctrination.

      5. 0
        sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah! And they'll also ban math and science too! What we need is more stupid immoral kids so the stupid immoral ones we have now won't feel excluded. Please!

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Sometimes I really wish theists would pick up another book instead of the bible. You don't have a dictionary? There are plenty online. Please use them.

          1. 0
            sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Is that all you got liberal!?

      6. 0
        A Texanposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You put a lot of thought into that didn't you?

      7. wsp2469 profile image61
        wsp2469posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Not that I have all day for this--which means you'll get the last word--BUT there is a difference between fact and opinion.
        You have stated opinion.
        ABUSE would be like a Catholic priest sodomizing an altar boy.
        teaching your kids about your faith is NOT abuse.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You're right. Indoctrinating them into your faith is abuse.

          1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
            AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Are we still on this. Abuse is... oh never mind

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, and it is a topic that will continue to gain much ground and many will find themselves having to deal with it whether they like it or not. It's the same with any other topic that arises where old ideals are continously being tested and debunked.

              Better get used to it.

              1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yawn. Is there something wrong with your stats?

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, I do see how the topic can appear boring and unimportant and can easily be dismissed.

                  So was the vote for woman.

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Very sleepppyyy

                  2. 0
                    Leta Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    The intellectual feminists don't necessarily want you on their side, I'd guarantee.

                2. 0
                  Leta Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  For a few, it was decided with Nietzsche long ago--which incidentally, didn't really mean God was actually dead.  The populist/scientist-ic crowd is now proving they got gumption and zeitgeist.  wink

                  Yawn.

                3. wsp2469 profile image61
                  wsp2469posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  How about someone citing sources for the definitions of the words abuse and indoctrination?

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    It was me who questioned his use of the word abuse. I think that we can come up with a definition that most of us are happy with, more-or-less -- that is all that dictionaries do anyway, to get their definitions in the first place... (besides, I don't believe in Webster's, not being American, so right there there's a weakness in using sources smile ). As for indoctrination, that one's not my baby

                  2. 61
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Try a dictionary.

    2. Presigo profile image61
      Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Timely post, cause I waqs thinking the same ! Which is why I have ceased to look at these posts anymore, I wrote a hub on the same thing, called Hubpages microcosm of USA, but I am glad to see someone else take notice of this sick need for attention a few have here.

    3. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know that this is a reach out for attention but the ability to express yourself in relative anonimity.

      You have to admit that as ferverish as some of these conversations get, you wouldn't want to have them face to face as some bad things may happen.  Even if you don't agree with what the individual is saying, you learn something if only how wrong you think the other person is.

      1. Friendlyword profile image61
        Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Givin the slight chance you are referring to me; My email is on my hub witch has my name on it. I'm a man. I stand behind what I say. My name and face are on the twitter and Facebook pages I have linked to my hub. I think Christian Cults are sick twisted and dangerous. If you want to eqaute that to mean all Christians are like that; SO BE IT. WHO ARE YOU??? You sound like a big man with your threats. SHOW YOUR FACE!!!

    4. prettydarkhorse profile image64
      prettydarkhorseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      threads like these which invite trouble and arguments, wherein both sides try to outdo each other with outrageous, rude, degrading and unrespectful comments until they get frustrated and come back once more to post another thread, and then change their log in name,

      I cant believe this is occuring in a site where people are supposed to be writers, not only becuase they call themselves writers but as a human being in a social world, there should be limit to what each one can do,,,,insult etc

      1. Presigo profile image61
        Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You and I seek the same things from here it would appear, thank you for being there and your refreshing input

        1. Bibowen profile image90
          Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Even on this thread they're going to dump on it. It may be difficult to resist, but I think sometimes we can provoke the crazies by engaging them. Thanks for your comments.

          1. Presigo profile image61
            Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            you are right they are doing it here as well !!! I hope you understand if I dont check on this thread anymore !!! But I will look at some of your other articles, thanks again for at least validating my suspisions as well, all the best

            1. Bibowen profile image90
              Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, thanks for your comments and best wishes...

      2. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I don't want to limit them. Usually, that only creates a bigger problem. My issue is whether or not we should be more reflective before we respond and exercise some constraint before we engage these accusations.

      3. Dao Hoa profile image61
        Dao Hoaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with you. Some people just will not let go!

      4. Friendlyword profile image61
        Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I missed that part; where you have to be a Writer to join this Hub. I thought is was just another blog where regular people could be heard. I'm not a writer. I'm just a reagular guy stating my opinions on political subjects. I wish I was a writer, I wouldn't get banned so much.

        1. KCC Big Country profile image85
          KCC Big Countryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You can become a writer if you really want to.  You found your voice, now you just have to hone your skills.

      5. smitzr profile image61
        smitzrposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        How would you rate my recent hub?
        http://hubpages.com/hub/Amen-or-F-Off
        Which is the worse blasphemy, Amen in the context which I described or...f-off? If God is Good(Jesus, Allah, Budda, Hindi, etc), then why are we fighting each other and not coming together for the common good?
        If it is not for the good of all, how is it good.
        Ergo, how is it really God, of which we flipantly and
        casually say 'Amen' to in our daily prayers?
        Unless we are together the religions of the world
        are nothing more than political and corprate entities
        preaching their own gospels solely for their own
        good and political/corprate survival.

    5. spiderpam profile image59
      spiderpamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      These threads are the product of their own indoctrination

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltf9aAvYMwc

      1. 0
        thetruthhurts2009posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes maam!

      2. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. I really enjoy engaging unbelievers in worthwhile discussions on fundamental questions and I know you do too. But, I'm starting to think that on threads that are mostly accusatory, they probably should not be answered. When you talk to these people, you don't get a response to an argument; you get another accusation.

    6. yoshi97 profile image88
      yoshi97posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This is called 'grandstanding', and not all of it is aimed at religion. The intent of said individulas is to create a topic that will get a lot of debate time, making them falsely believe that they are actively stimulating conversation in others.

      1. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. This is not an issue of religion per se. I mentioned on another thread that this is usually people's way of getting attention because they are unable to garner respect in other forums (like professional accomplishments, for example). As Prettydarkhorse said, this is a writer's forum and it is productivity and quality that should distinguish members of the writing community.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I would agree with that. Can you explain then why there are so many threads with nothing more in the content of the OP but an affirmation to a god? How is that productive? Is it quality, by your standards?

          1. Bibowen profile image90
            Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, it can be "quality." Have you ever read Confessions by St. Augustine? How could anyone not consider that "quality"?

            In accepting the Lord, I have a direct experience of God. God has the capacity to make himself known to those that believe on Him. I have done that and I accept that experience as veridical. Absent any defeater of that experience, I am justified in accepting that experience as a true one, just as I'm justified in knowing that my wife loves me. I can't prove that to you, but that does not mean that my experience is not a true one. My acceptance that my wife loves me is not "irrational"; I think it's best to say it's "nonrational."

            While it may not make much sense to an unbeliever to say that God abides with us, it does make sense to a believer, both on this forum, across the world, and such an experience was known by those in the past. He knows (or can know) God in his life. As for others that have not had that experience, I'm sorry that they lack such an experience (the forgiveness of sins, a strong sense of destiny, the hope of eternal life, the love of God, the peace of God, etc). But, it makes no sense to me to deny my experiences as veridical just because someone else lacks that experience.

            As for "productive" I think it can be very productive. On several occasions I have read how a believer has received some blessing from the Lord. That can be a great blessing to me. "Encouragement" is conducive to productivity. It might also cause some to ask whether or not it's possible to really know God or not. So, yes, I also believe it can be productive.

            1. 0
              Leta Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I agree, although I do not frame anything necessarily through being 'a believer.'

              However, using Augustine as an example, whole theological philosophies and concerns are disregarded (I suspect because many posters are not even familiar with them).

              As for calling theists 'irrational,' THAT is irrational.  Andrew Sullivan, editor of the Atlantic and a practicing Catholic, called it best on the Bill Maher's show featuring "Religulous."  (I will find the quote and post it.)

              Anyway, irregardless, 'anti-religionism' has now entered the realm of the populist imagination, and that is the level it's at--very apparent on Hubpages.  However, adherence to this populism doesn't approach true discussion.

            2. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I thought you were talking about Hubpages?



              No, you don't. Having an experience is not the same as accepting to have the experience.



              Gods have the capacity to make themselves known to anyone, not just those who believe. None have made themselves known to the world as yet. Or, did I miss the film at eleven?



              Yet, if your wife truly loves you, it would easy enough for her to demonstrate that to anyone. The justification you claim to your experience with god has no foundation of demonstration beyond your own imagination.



              I see that as an argument from authority, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Gods in general make no sense to unbelievers, that's exactly the point. Making claims beyond that in regards to gods abiding with us has no grounds for pursuing if the existence of the gods hasn't even been established.



              What you're really saying here is that you think you're special because you believe to have had experiences with a god. And, since the gods you purport to be omniscient and omnipotent could make it a very simple matter to provide me with the same earth shattering, life changing experience as you, my waiting in vain these past years is not something I should discount?

              Notice how this failure does not speak for me or any other nonbeliever, but in fact speaks volumes to the nonexistence of your god.



              The facades and false hopes created by religions do more harm than good as they simply replace one vice for another and fail to deal with the root cause and offer only placation.

              1. 0
                Leta Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Strawman argument...your initial quip deliberately misreading the intent behind his words sets the tone for the entire 'debate.'

                As far as I'm concerned, the new atheists are just a religious sect that is trying to find converts as well.  Unimpressive.

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  What are you referring to exactly? I see no strawman but I would be happy to change my post if indeed one is pointed out to me.



                  Do you consider the vacuous claims of theists to be impressive in comparison?

                  Do you understand that a lack of belief is not the same as worshipping the invisible and undetectable.

                  1. 0
                    Leta Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I consider NO vacuous claims to be impressive.  Yours, too.  And I would not attempt to 'argue' with one so adroit in choosing the meaning behind, around, or threaded through what has been stated.

                    Just to point out in example the obvious:  Bibowen (who incidentally, I disagree with most of the time) was referencing St. Augustine as quality reading material.  You made a cutesy (I assume) and asked if he was not indeed talking about Hubpages? 

                    How innocent.  You use postmodern theory so well.

                    Bleck...

    7. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think teaching your child out of the Bible could be classified as abuse.  Teaching doctrine that is interpreted out of the Bible to reinforce sectarian beliefs and practices can be dangerous as this can be cultist in its' basis.

      I have personal knowledge of cultist church teachings that have created schisms between grandparents and grandchildren at far too early an age for the grandchildren to understand the complexities of mature faith and acceptance of others beliefs. This can get abusive if allowed to go too far.

    8. Colebabie profile image60
      Colebabieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      These are just examples of people using good ideas and construing them to do bad things. People do it all the time, even here on HubPages.

      Is using the terms "terrorists", "advocating genocide" and "abuse" a little stretched... maybe. But as embellished as you may think it is, the place of religion in those situations is questionable.

    9. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I saw a 60 Minute story a while back. It was about the Ku Klux Klan. And there was a family in the klan taking a picture in their sheets and hoods. The mother was holding a newborn with a tiny sheet and hood on. This is what Cults do. They produce Terrorists.  The Advocted Genocide or "Holy Wars", and they commit child abuse. Everyone seems to be able to tell the difference accept you.

    10. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists are starved for attention?
      I don't see it that way.
      I think you believers don't want or like to be criticized in your beliefs, because you can't sustain them.
      I, personally ,don't believe in anything. And If I post in religion is to give my opinion, opinion I'm entitled  to, just like you.
      And I'm not starving for attention. I get all the attention I want, without having to come to the RF. Thank you

      1. 0
        sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        When did they give girls a right to an opinion? Thats a load of bull!smile

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol
          hi sneak !
          Thanks for the 'girl' thing, but I'm a woman, and entitled to my opinion, whether you like it or not ! big_smile

          1. 0
            sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I made a booboo once and it got me in trouble. We got a flyer in the paper that said Target was having a sale on girls clothes so after work I took my wife to Target. On the way home my wife reviewed the reasons why I'm a moron.smile

    11. chambersgirl21 profile image61
      chambersgirl21posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Those kind of threads are just plain ignorant. smile

    12. Make  Money profile image73
      Make Moneyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This can easily be turned around to show the truth, like so ...

      Militant atheists and gay rights anarchists are
      1. terrorists.
      2. advocating predatory homosexual recruitment of schoolchildren into gay activities in Uganda.
      3. committing child abuse by teaching their children about evolution and homosexuality.

      I think believers are just wasting time by replying to some that are just trying to antagonize like marinealways24, (Q), tantrum, Bovine Currency, Cagsil and a few others in here.  We'd be better off to just ignore their threads and posts.  But I think we need to expose the truth like in the Uganda issue.

      1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Good answer all round

      2. Friendlyword profile image61
        Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ok...Since you invited me. Let me ask what truth you exposed about the coming Holocaust in Uganda(BACKED BY A CHRISTIAN CULT)? Just because you tried to make the point it's going to be Holocust Lite; does not change the fact the when the killing starts all Homosexuals in Uganda will be Murdered.
        And it's a stupid argument to make that you commit child abuse by teaching your child religion. Most of the good things we learn about being decent human beings come from our parents teaching us about religion. Most parents teach their kids common sense along with religion, so they can distinguish what is good and evil.

      3. Bibowen profile image90
        Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes. Here I think the Bible provides some guidance. I Peter 2 talks about personal attacks and says that they should be treated "with patience." I think it's best to deflect personal attacks (for the most part). However, there are times when it isn't right to sit by and allow flagrant lies to proceed. Especially when they involve the lives of others, they should be exposed.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You are right, your biblical lies should be exposed by everyone. Pretty silly for you to think out of all beliefs in the world, yours is the only correct one. Some people don't need a belief book to understand how to live and have a conscience.

        2. Make  Money profile image73
          Make Moneyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          For sure Bibowen, the lies need to be exposed.  Like the Uganda issue or this other one about homosexual predators.
          Education official involved in teaching 14-year-olds strange sex techniques

          1. Bibowen profile image90
            Bibowenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, I became aware of Czar Jennings some time ago. He's a real piece of work. It goes without saying that the information spotlight needs to shine brightly to expose his sorry life.

            1. Make  Money profile image73
              Make Moneyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The thread about Czar Jennings was so disgusting HubPages deleted the post and closed it to replies.  But you can read the editorial here if you want.  There is a warning at the top of it.
              http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 … czar/?feat

              1. Friendlyword profile image61
                Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah Baby!
                Let's completely lose our minds and see just how low and off topic we can go.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4g4QYHJ3hU

      4. 61
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ignorance is a much easier path to take. Why not just get us all banned instead, then you can write affirmations to god to your hearts content. That's what you really want, isn't it?

        Those damn pesky unbelievers are getting in the way of you shoving your beliefs down our throats, making faith based decisions in government and law to satisfy the invisible and undetectable, which is really nothing more than your own selfish ideals.

        And btw, MAKE MONEY, you never answered a question I posed sometime back in which I asked you if you ever got permission from your god to make money off of him?

        When you eventually stand before your god, as you seem to beleive, what will you offer him when he asks for his cut of the profits? Your soul, perhaps? And, what do you think he'll do with it? Bring sunscreen, lots of it.

    13. pylos26 profile image77
      pylos26posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I would support number three...with the addition of teaching a child the bible "AS TRUTH".

    14. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this
    15. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I NEED MORE ATTENTION!!! I know why you and Make Money were so alarmed by my forum topic: The US Christian Right promotes a Ugandan Holocaust.
      Now I know why you tried to distract me with your name calling. Now I know why you started this Forum topic to discredit me.  Make Money said there was more to this story. It took me awhile to figure it out. It's about your bottom line.

      http://allafrica.com/view/group/main/ma … 10965.html

    16. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting that you lie about this.

      Teaching children garbage such as the world being 6000 years old and getting them to repeat mindless prayers to non existent super beings when they are incapable of understanding what they are praying to is indeed child abuse.

      This is not the same as teaching them the bible.

      Sorry you needed to lie about this. Jesus would be very proud.

      You are a child abuser.

      Comments please about why the religionist need to lie about what was actually said.

      Why do religionists lie so much? Is this what jesus would have wanted?

    17. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Technically, they're Christianists - people who think they're Christians, but who are obsessed with limiting the rights of other people and perverting a perfectly sensible message of treating your neighbor as you would yourself (the Golden Rule, which is pretty much universally respected across value systems).

      A pity that those who scream most loudly about being Christian are, in fact, not Christian but Christianists. They give Christians a bad name (unfairly).

      1. 0
        sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah! It's like liberals who aren't liberal. They want their version of sociaty and they don't care who they hurt to get it. They gladly stand in judgement of whose a Christian and whose not when they have no intention of repsecting anything Christian.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Like the Christian doctrine that would see me as an unbeliever  burn in hellfire for an eternity, that kind of respect?

    18. starme77 profile image85
      starme77posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      alot of em are the same person just entertaining themselves I guess

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Certainly better to guess than do any actual reading and speak from knowledge. wink

        1. starme77 profile image85
          starme77posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          yup some times it is:)

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Of course. Much, much easier. wink

    19. Daniel Carter profile image90
      Daniel Carterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You can teach a child whatever you want. You can abuse a child. You can do all kinds of things--control, domination, indoctrination, etc., but in SO many of those cases, the child starts to figure out the charade and starts following his own moral compass, whatever that may be.

      I am one of those people. It took a long time to come through lies and deceits, the coverups, hate and abuse, but I believe I'm a better person for having come through all of it. I think for myself. I don't mock believers, and I don't mock nonbelievers. Those who mock either or both are themselves the worst of fools.

      About the time anyone believes they have the world and universe figured out is about the time someone will come along and knock down that house of cards. The disorientation is horrible. You have no idea what's next or if there is a next anything. But the journey through it is the best thing that can happen to anyone.

      It's only by questioning the answers that we can eventually answer our own questions. Other's questions are not nearly as important as our own. The answers come from within, not from without. Those who are wise help others to find those answers within themselves, not beat them into another person with a sledge hammer.

      So teach what you want. In the end, it's irrelevant, because we are individuals and must think, discover and learn as individuals. In the end, you cannot take the individuality and uniqueness out of a person. They figure it out on their own.

      1. Cagsil profile image82
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well said Daniel! big_smile

  2. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 6 years ago

    Works on both sides Bibowen. Not you personally, but plenty of religionists do the same smile

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That's very true.

    2. Cagsil profile image82
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you Misha. big_smile

    3. AEvans profile image71
      AEvansposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I am behaving tonight so I concur! big_smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I like it better when you misbehave. lol

  3. Paraglider profile image90
    Paragliderposted 6 years ago

    @Bibowen - I agree with you that too many threads are started to be confrontational. And I agree with Misha that this is a 2-way street. And I see that you have in effect started another one, by failing to notice the symmetry of the situation.

    1. prettydarkhorse profile image64
      prettydarkhorseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Dave!

      1. Paraglider profile image90
        Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Maita - the rains have arrived in Qatar, after 10 dry months, we've got a thunderstorm!

  4. KCC Big Country profile image85
    KCC Big Countryposted 6 years ago

    In my opinion, I can better serve and support my child by exposing her to a variety of ideas, beliefs, concepts, and philosophies and let her make her own choices.  If she choses to follow my beliefs, great, if not, so be it.  At least she will have been given the opportunity to do the research herself in order to make her own conclusions.

    If you teach a child that they must always look to you for how they should believe or behave they will never grow on their own.  They will always doubt their own decisions and will always turn to someone else.  That someone else that comes along won't always have their best interest in mind.  They have to be taught to be free-thinkers and think for themselves.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      My Compliments, very well said. smile

  5. h.a.borcich profile image61
    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago

    Marine,

      Can you define angry? Is it a group belief or an individual one? Why are you so emotional about this? What is your logic? smile
      I am passionate as in it is a matter I believe in strongly. Anger is something out of control or near it.
      And your last question...what do you think the logical answer is to that? smile Holly

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Angry = you getting defensive about me asking you questions. You say you don't want me to talk about logic then you instigate me to write about logic. lol What sense does that make? I agree with government stepping into ppl's lives as little as possible, how do they correct whats wrong when people are too emotional to state their opinion? If it is a known fact people are teaching a belief of hate to minors, I think someone should step in, the hard part is deciding on what and when to step in without violating free belief.

  6. kess profile image60
    kessposted 6 years ago

    There are some really heavy foolishness and hypocrisy posted in this thread.

  7. Colebabie profile image60
    Colebabieposted 6 years ago

    Geez. You guys have different views of what is "liberal", if we are using labels. Which to me is pretty lame and a cop out. Its easier to blame things on other people when you can just group them all together and label them, isn't it?

  8. goldenpath profile image80
    goldenpathposted 6 years ago

    Greetings!  It's me again.

    When we commit to marriage and the beginnings of a home we thus obtain that right to raise our posterity according to how we feel is right, true and correct.  It's my privilege and right!  I would not impede upon someone elses similar right simply because I don't agree with it.  It's their right and I respect that.  As long as it falls within the realms of the law you may raise your family as you see fit.  You, as the experienced parent have a better chance to raise your child than if you left the childs wellbeing to him/her self. 

    As for my home I teach love and the doctrines of service to others and the necessities of salvation as I see it and have experienced it.  That - is my responsibility to pass on to my rising generation.  At the same time that I arm them with these tools of life I let them know that the time is soon coming when they will be their own masters over all decisions of their life and that they have the right to accept or reject the teachings I have tried to instill in them over the years.

    Mark my words though.  The immediate problem is with the government impeding on the raising of our children without the respect of the parents.  This I fear most!

  9. Sara Tonyn profile image59
    Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago

    What bothers me most is there's much about religion that can discussed in a civil manner, yet it happens so rarely. Instead, it seems threads always come down to believers and non-believers exchanging insults and attacks.

    As long as both sides insist on taking a predominantly "I'm right, you're wrong", black and white approach to the issue things will never change. 

    More on topic... The outlandish thread titles come from both sides and I'd love for that to stop -- but I know it won't.

    World religions, atheism, agnosticism, spiritual and non-spiritual views are equally fascinating to me; and believe it or not, all have valid points worth thinking about.

    Just my 2 cents.

  10. wsp2469 profile image61
    wsp2469posted 6 years ago

    ANYWAY to answer the original question--yeah SOMEONE probably talks a lot of shit here just to get attention.
    (I think you phrased the question backwards though in that it is probably non-believers who start the trouble from what I have observed anyway.

  11. 0
    Leta Sposted 6 years ago

    Just one reason I love Sullivan:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4p4N9CTUu8

    Unfortunately, the panel discussion on religion I'm talking about, where he is equally as eloquent against the simpleton atheist sect, has mysteriously disappeared.  Hmmm.

  12. 0
    Leta Sposted 6 years ago

    And that is also to say that Nietzsche a long time ago proposed that God (God= BIG Religion...the sham) is dead.  But that did not mean that atheism was THE answer.  Too many quasi-intellectuals, I'm afraid, have misinterpreted what he said.  Hence, you end up with stuff like Bill Maher's "Religulous." 

    Repeated over and over again in populist glory ad nauseum on Hubpages.

  13. 0
    Writer Riderposted 6 years ago

    This is all total b.s because the truth lies somewhere in a shade of gray that takes into account many factors that's not being considered here. Yeah.

    1. pylos26 profile image77
      pylos26posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Like thinking?

      1. 0
        Writer Riderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Like thinking without taking many factor into consideration .

  14. wsp2469 profile image61
    wsp2469posted 6 years ago

    Education in a given subject allows one to make more informed choices and decisions.

  15. 0
    Writer Riderposted 6 years ago

    "It's abuse to force a child to believe something" Puhlease. Of course, they shouldn't be forced per say, but how on Earth are they going to learn how to survive life if they aren't given the manual? They weren't born with one you know.

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wow! How come you're cupcakes get all the sprinkles? Thats not fair!

      1. KCC Big Country profile image85
        KCC Big Countryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL...I was thinking along the same lines.  More like face down in the sand.

        1. 0
          sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Those are some sparkly lips!

        2. 0
          Writer Riderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You know, people think I'm prettier than I think I am. In fact, it's usually an afterthought to me. My intelligence and opinions, I hope, are more important.

      2. 0
        Writer Riderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I wish! I don't think anyone ever has all the sprinkles. They're just distributed differently.

  16. Valerie F profile image60
    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago

    But teaching your children to think for themselves and raising them in your religion are not mutually exclusive.

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It most certainly is if you've been indoctrinated into the same religion.

  17. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    So I guess the bible would be a good place to "educate" your kids from.

    I wonder how this would go down?

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB
    That should keep em in line! lol

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol Hard to argue that one.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Religionists don't argue any of the hard ones! smile They just avoid them! lol

        1. sooner than later profile image62
          sooner than laterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'll write a hub about that.

          1. yoshi97 profile image88
            yoshi97posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Things I have learned from religion:

            Treat others with kindness and decency
            Respect your elders
            Love selflessly, not selfishly
            'Tis better to give than receive
            Life is always precious - guard it sacredly

            I don't thing any of these things are bad, not do I feel brainwashed for believing in them. Where the Bible falters is when people twist its message to serve their own agenda - like when a person kills four cops and says Jesus made him do it.

            Like anything else in this world, a tool can be used to help others or wielded to cause harm - but the tool itself remains innocent when left to itself.

            1. chambersgirl21 profile image61
              chambersgirl21posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yoshi- good point. How could I ever say it better than the word? I couldn't.

  18. Friendlyword profile image61
    Friendlywordposted 6 years ago

    I'm still waiting for a reply from Bibowen or Make Money to any of my questions they ran from on my Thread "Right Wing Christians promote a Holocaust in Uganda". You called me names, you wrote distractions, but you never really addressed the justification of the Murder of the Homosexual People in Uganda. 
    If they are OUTLANDISH STATEMENTS as you say, address them with real facts. The truth is THE FAMILY is after Oil, and they are willing to allow the President(A member of the Family) they installed in that Country to Murder his Citizens to distract the people from the Crooks and liars, and thieves that are there to steal their Oil and leave them with nothing but a destroyed Country.

    1. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Make Money/Bibowen
      I know I really had nothing to do with this. I still feel like I did something, instead of sitting around and hoping it would go away.  I feel we should all speak up when we see something in life that is really really wrong.  Your one little voice might make all the difference in the World.

      Uganda to Drop Death Penalty, Life in Jail for Gays!
      http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= … 6JnNOFJv64

      1. 0
        A Texanposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Same post, different thread, weird!

        1. Friendlyword profile image61
          Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Just trying to spread the good news.  I know how concerned you all were about this issue.

          1. 0
            A Texanposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you Friendly, I love to see a Nation advance.

            1. Friendlyword profile image61
              Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Let's not get carried away here.  The Nation is not advancing. It's being Rape and Robbed by the Shah Museveni, that was install by THE FAMILY the cult that he is a member of.  Since 1986 they have been there to help spread disease and hate and chaos and civil war. They have oil. And the people have no one in the government looking out for their interest.

      2. Make  Money profile image73
        Make Moneyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I told you so.  You are right, you or no gay rights anarchist had anything to do with this.


        Let's hope these predatory organized anarchist homosexual groups learned a lesson from this.  Now in light of Obama's risky-sex czar they need to learn the same lesson in the US.  Let's hope it spreads.

        1. Friendlyword profile image61
          Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You are such a smart man!
          Help me out with some of these passages that were in that article:
          "serious inquiries about sexual filth propagated by a senior presidential appointee"

          "his seeming encouragement of sex between one of his high school students and a much older man as well as his praise for Harry Hay, a notorious supporter of the North American Man Boy Love Association."

          "sponsored by Mr. Jennings' organization"

          Make Money, please explain to all us out here; that you think are stupid; what crime did this man commit? What statement did he make that should disqualify him from his appointment. What group is he a part of that works against this government or any of it's citizens? Give us something besides some slick, sleazy attack ad.

  19. sooner than later profile image62
    sooner than laterposted 6 years ago

    me and my friends.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Why I'm not surprised ? lol

  20. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    So glad you guys have so much confidence in "the word" smile

      If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

    You Better have it exactly right now, or I will tell mummy and daddy!!! lol

  21. Friendlyword profile image61
    Friendlywordposted 6 years ago

    This is an article from a Homosexual Man in Uganda. He could be Murder any day now. I think you should here it straight from him, what is happening in his Country.

    As a gay Ugandan, Frank Mugisha has endured insults from strangers, hate messages on his phone, police harassment and being outed in a tabloid as one of the country's "top homos". That may soon seem like the good old days.
    Life imprisonment is the minimum punishment for anyone convicted of having gay sex, under an anti-homosexuality bill currently before Uganda's parliament. If the accused person is HIV positive or a serial offender, or a "person of authority" over the other partner, or if the "victim" is under 18, a conviction will result in the death penalty.
    Members of the public are obliged to report any homosexual activity to police with 24 hours or risk up to three years in jail – a scenario that human rights campaigners say will result in a witchhunt. Ugandans breaking the new law abroad will be subject to extradition requests.
    "The bill is haunting us," said Mugisha, 25, chairman of Sexual Minorities Uganda, a coalition of local lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex groups that will all be banned under the law. "If this passes we will have to leave the country."
    Human rights groups within and outside Uganda have condemned the proposed legislation, which is designed to strengthen colonial-era laws that already criminalise gay sex. The issue threatened to overshadow the Commonwealth heads of government meeting that ended in Trinidad and Tobago today, with the UK and Canada both expressing strong concerns. Ahead of the meeting Stephen Lewis, a former UN envoy on Aids in Africa, said the law "makes a mockery of Commonwealth principles" and has "a taste of fascism" about it.
    But within Uganda deeply-rooted homophobia, aided by a US-linked evangelical campaign alleging that gay men are trying to "recruit" schoolchildren, and that homosexuality is a habit that can be "cured", has ensured widespread public support for the bill.
    President Yoweri Museveni appeared to add his backing earlier this month, warning youths in Kampala that he had heard that "European homosexuals are recruiting in Africa", and saying gay relationships were against God's will.
    "We used to say Mr and Mrs, but now it is Mr and Mr. What is that now?" he said. In a interview with the Guardian, James Nsaba Buturo, the minister of state for ethics and integrity, said the government was determined to pass the legislation, ideally before the end of 2009, even if meant withdrawing from international treaties and conventions such as the UN's Universal Declaration on Human Rights, and foregoing donor funding.
    "We are talking about anal sex. Not even animals do that," Butoro said, adding that he was personally caring for six "former homosexuals" who had been traumatised by the experience. "We believe there are limits to human rights."
    Homosexuality has always been a taboo subject in Uganda, and is considered by many to be an affront both to local culture and religion, which plays a strong role in family life. This stigma and the real threat of job loss means that no public personality has ever "come out".
    Even local HIV campaigns – which have been heavily influenced by the evangelical church with a bias towards abstinence over condom use – have deliberately avoided targeting gay men for both prevention and access to treatment.
    "This means many gay men here think Aids is a non-issue, which is so dangerous," said Mugisha, who together with a few colleagues, has risked arrest by agitating in recent years for a change in the HIV policy.
    At the same time, some influential religious leaders have warned about the dangers of accepting liberal western attitudes towards homosexuality.
    Both opponents and supporters agree that the impetus for the a more hardline law came in March during a seminar in Kampala to "expose the truth behind homosexuality and the homosexual agenda".
    The main speakers were three US evangelists: Scott Lively, Don Schmierer and Caleb Lee Brundidge. Lively is a noted anti-gay activist and president of Defend the Family International, a conservative Christian association, while Schmierer is an author who works with "homosexual recovery groups". Brundidge is a "sexual reorientation coach" at the International Healing Foundation.
    The seminar was organised by Stephen Langa, a Ugandan electrician turned pastor who runs the Family Life Network in Kampala and has been spreading the message that gays are targeting schoolchildren for "conversion". "They give money to children to recruit schoolmates – once you have two children, the whole school is gone," he said in an interview. Asked if there had been any court case to prove this was happening, he replied: "No, that's why this law is needed."
    After the conference Langa arranged for a petition signed by thousands of concerned parents to be delivered to parliament in April. Within a few months the bill had been drawn up.
    [In an email to the Guardian on 30 November, Scott Lively said, "I have stated publicly that I do not support the bill as written. It is far too harsh and punitive. My purpose in addressing members of the Uganda parliament in March was to urge them to emphasise therapy, not punishment in their anti-homosexuality law." His long-standing position was, he said, that public policy should "actively discourage homosexuality but only as aggressively as necessary to prevent its public advocacy, much the way laws against marijuana are used in various states here in the US: the law is very lightly enforced, if ever, but the fact the law is on the books prevents advocates of the drug from promoting it, for example, in public schools."]

    Christopher Senyonjo, a retired Anglican bishop, said the bill would push Uganda towards being a police state. "This law is being influenced by some evangelicals abroad," he said. "There's a lack of understanding about homosexuality – it's not recruitment, it's orientation."
    But among religious leaders of all faiths his is a rare voice. Langa, the pastor, said the only thing lacking in the legislation was a clause for "rehabilitation" of homosexuals, whom he "loves" and wants to help. Gay rights had the potential to destroy civilisation, as the west could soon find out, he said.
    "As one parent told me: 'We would rather live in grass huts with our morality than in skyscrapers among homosexuals'."
    • This article was updated on 1 December 2009 to add a later comment by Scott Riley. A sub-heading - US evangelists are main activists behind measure - was amended to clarify that the evangelists were pressing for tougher laws, rather than specifically for the death penalty.”

  22. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    This has to be the sickest fear and hate based country in the world at this time.
    The ordeal of those in the country is barbaric and the work of zealots.

    1. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No Earnest!
      There is actually a method to this madness:

      "This is starting to sound like a twist to the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. Some CULT FOLLOWERS go to a Country, infect them with their religious belief. Make them abandon any kind of safe sex practices because of that religious belief against it. Teach them to hate and fear other people in their society because that religion says so. Wait ten years or so for the people to become hopelessly infected with disease and fear  Then they point to a scapegoat within the country so the people are too busy dying and killing each other to think clearly about who and what is really killing them. I'm I close?
      This CULT called the family has been in Uganda since 1986 and they have been destroying that country since then. The President seems to have been installed like the Shah of Iran. Maybe you missed this link that Pam put here explaining the whole history of this plot.
      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#34337416

      Wow! Did Make Money and Bibowen really start carrying on!
      What I did not realize was that I was not close.  I was right on the mark!  President Museveni is actually a member of this Cult The Family.  And was installed just like the shah of Iran was installed for a specific purpose; to help Infect that Country Body and Mind.  Weaken the people, drive them into chaos and civil war for one reason.  The same reason Countries all over the Middle East and Africa have been or are being destroyed.  The  lies being made up in Uganda about the homosexual people in that Country is just as calculated as the lies made up to invade Iraq.  These Cult members and not Christians, they are the same Crooks, and thieves and liars that sent us to war as a distraction to steal oil from Iraq. 

      Uganda has Oil!
      http://allafrica.com/view/group/main/ma … 10965.html

      And the Homosexual People in Uganda are about to be massacred because their country has  Oil and the Family does not want the people of the country to profit from it.  Shah Museveni is going to Murder his Citizens as a distraction so they wont realize he’s just there to help Rape and Rob their Country. I’m not College Educated;  so I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one that figured this out. Why is this being allowed to happen again and again?

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        OK, I'm up to speed now. That is even more disgraceful!

  23. Make  Money profile image73
    Make Moneyposted 6 years ago

    Give it a rest Friendlyword, you are starting to look like one of those anarchists.  It looks like I'll have to correct you on this thread too.  Like in about 75 other countries in the world homosexuality is also illegal in Uganda.  Taken from Friendlyword's thread titled "The US Christian Right promotes a Ugandan Holocaust."


    Like smoking cigarettes you'd have to want to quit first.

  24. Friendlyword profile image61
    Friendlywordposted 6 years ago

    Hello Make Money!!!

    Child molesters are criminals. Straight or gay. Try to get past that and let the laws that already exist take care of them.  I'm  trying to convey a sense of urgency concerning the slaughter of innocent people that's coming. Your distractive arguments are not helping to stop this Holocaust, it is fueling the fire. I'm not impressed with your exhaustive research on child molesters, we both know that's not the real reason for the coming slaughter. Give me ten paragraphs and twelve links related to the The Families' involvement in this countries' political affairs and and the reason for it.

  25. Make  Money profile image73
    Make Moneyposted 6 years ago

    Did you not read the Obama's risky-sex czar editorial Friendlyword?  <snipped - no personal attacks in the forums>  Jennings should be removed from his position for the same reason that the predatory organized anarchist homosexual groups are jailed in Uganda.

    1. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I dont think Man/boy love is okay. I think it's Child Molestation. Mr. Jennings might think the same thing I do. But we dont know that because that attack ad tried to put words in his mouth just like you tried to put words into my mouth.

      <snipped - no personal attacks in the forums>

      You really do think people are stupid and dont know what you are doing to this man.

  26. tobey100 profile image60
    tobey100posted 6 years ago

    I agree with Presigo.  I don't read 'em anymore.  Most of it's for show or to startle.  From some of the stuff they write I've got to believe no one can be that logically warped.

  27. Make  Money profile image73
    Make Moneyposted 6 years ago

    That Washington Times editorial "Obama's risky-sex czar" about how disgusting Jennings is is mild compared to what I read about him this morning.  He needs to be removed, bottom line.  <snipped - no personal attacks/hate speech in the forums>

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Am I right in thinking you just called someone a queer?

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I think so Earnest.  Isn't this considered a personal attack?

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I would have thought so...

          1. Presigo profile image61
            Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            oh ! but is anyone feeling the love

  28. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    Be a good christian and go report yourself would you make money?
    I never report personal attacks myself, but I feel confident that you do!

    1. Make  Money profile image73
      Make Moneyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah sure you don't earney.  Why is it that my post got snipped but his didn't.  Tattle tail. lol

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I have never ever reported anyone on hubpages for anything.
        Except spam selling mp3 software.

  29. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Wo, RD and Ernest. The OP said Make Money was into incest. Let's be fair! It's tit for tat.

    1. Presigo profile image61
      Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      do you believe in prayer ?

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I believe some do it but can't say if it accomplishes anything.

    2. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I did not see that. Still two wrongs...

      1. Make  Money profile image73
        Make Moneyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are right earney, two wrongs don't make a queer right do they.  I'm pushing it now, aren't I. lol

    3. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      How did I miss the tit? I usually notice these things?

  30. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    I sure do! I pray every day.

  31. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    I KNEW you'd pick up on that, RD!

    Did you see the tat - as in puddy tat?

  32. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    For what it's worth, I think Earenst is being earnest. I can't see him being a snitch.

  33. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Property in Turkey? WTF??

  34. Presigo profile image61
    Presigoposted 6 years ago

    What surprises me. is that ernest has such a hard heart. He seems to be the ultimate smart ass, and that might cause others to bristle. I just think it horrific that one could live their life with so much hate ! I feel as though we should turnaway from hatefulness and try to find good in each other.I am sorry Ernest that you feel you must spread hate and anger like so much venom.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Where is the hate? I said I do not report others.
      I do not do hate. smile
      You hate that I disagree with you and then project that hate on to me. Sorry the persona will not hold. Do some research.

      1. Colebabie profile image60
        Colebabieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I see no hate in earnest's eyes.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you ColeBabie, I would like to see him say that to Asha the Trasha! She is four now and with her twin sister Lauren in tow she is formidable! Like many adults she has met, I just behave myself and stay on her good side.
          Anyone messes with my good name, I got an army of GKids ready to set em straight led by Asha!

          1. Presigo profile image61
            Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I will tell you iI am not sure what you werre trying to say. I suppose it was some kind of threat. Do not spit your venom and expect others to casually except the bite. You are entrenched in your beliefs, I get that, buit why doi you feel you have the right to shoot others down. I understand that blogging is narcistic, but your views are just not superior. Find a small semblence of humility.

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I say I am scared of a 4 year old and you see that as a threat?
              I do find that very amusing!

              1. Presigo profile image61
                Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this
      2. Presigo profile image61
        Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        id that convenient ? Please do not pretend that you have tolerance for those who believe. You are a person who has passion in your beliefs or lack there of, but you do not have compassion for those who believe

    2. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      And I, on the other hand, have just the opposite reaction to Earnest.  He seems honest in his posts and very caring when the situation calls for it.  You strike me as a member of the religious right, hence narrow minded and resistant to scientific enlightenment.

  35. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    I don't see Earnest as mean or hateful. I disagree with him in many areas, but he has never been disrespectful to me. He has a right to his opinions.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Habee I have always admired that you can often see both sides while standing on one of them! Kudos. smile

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Didn't you read earlier where I taught her everything she know?
        Now for the response to the set up.

  36. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Thanks, Earnest. I've always considered myself to be pretty fair-minded. I think I must have a broader view of Christianity than the far right wing has. I totally believe in tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, and love for my fellow man and creatures that share our planet. It's not for me to judge others.

  37. Colebabie profile image60
    Colebabieposted 6 years ago

    No problem Earnest! Asha is a lucky little girl smile
    Ok I'm off to bed now. Play nicely kids!

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sleep well! smile

  38. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    "Everything she know"?? Who taught you grammar??

    Yes, I have learned much from Randy, who is my senior. He hasn't been able to convert me to agnosticism, however.

    As for Earnest's intolerance, he knows I am a Christian - a believer - but he's always considerate of me and my views. Maybe that's because I'm not judgmental?

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol Sometimes you and I are like a dog at a bone in many forum areas, but you keep it honest, and I respect that very much.

      1. Presigo profile image61
        Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you for that. I have a feeling about you as well, you, like myself are passionate, and I do respect that, keep it on neutral terms and we will be fast friends for sure. Cause I do respect you.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Very large change in attitude... and.... Presumptuous. I was obviously speaking to habee.

  39. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Nighty-nite, Colebabie!

  40. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago

    I'm crashing also. Had to bury a dead cow today, something I bet many of you have never done before.  Later, dudes and dudettes

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Well I have Randy. Sorry mate. No joy to lose an animal.

  41. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    'Night, Randy! I still think you should have eaten that cow!

    And before anyone says Randy is hard-hearted, I'll tell you something about him that he never would. That cow he referred to was an aged bovine who got down days ago. Instead of just letting her starve to death or shooting her, Randy hauled feed and water to her every day.

    When he and his dad (who died a few years ago) had cows that got old, they could have just hauled them to the slaughterhouse and made a few bucks. Instead, they allowed the old cows that had served them faithfully by raising a number of calves "retire" and live out their final years in peace and comfort.

    1. Presigo profile image61
      Presigoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      ok

  42. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Presigo, I read a couple of your hubs today and enjoyed them. I think I left a comment on one or two.

  43. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Your Asha sounds like my Lexi. She's 6 and is FULL of herself!

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yep! I lost my first argument on a legal technicality when she was two! I just do as I am told now that she is four. She is way smarter than me anyway as is her slightly more retiring half hour younger sister. Being a grandfather means many bashings from the twins. smile They love me so much it hurts! At least they stopped using their teeth to climb up with! smile

      You have an uncaged six year old? Brave, very very brave! :lol; lol

  44. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Show me yours, and I'll show you mine - granddaughters, that is.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      OK! On the front of one of my hubs there is a photo of them both, but I may try to copy one here. smile

      I would love to see your ankle biters! lol

  45. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    <------ Lexi

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Too cute to describe! smile

  46. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Do you have boys, too? I have only 2 granddaughters, but I have 5 grandsons. We're expecting another girl in May.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      2 boys. Angus AKA Superspiderman is now 5, and Nicholas is 11. plus 2 more grandaughters 12 and almost 17.
      Cool you are getting a girl then! smile

  47. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Thanks, Earnest.

  48. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    <---Audrie, Lexi's sister. She's 3.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Also adorable!

  49. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    http://s3.hubimg.com/u/775562_f260.jpg
    Asha and Lauren.

  50. habee profile image89
    habeeposted 6 years ago

    Too cute! It must be awesome having twin grandgirls!

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes it is! smile

 
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